From gbell72-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 1 03:10:26 2003 From: gbell72-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (gbell72) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 22:10:26 -0500 (EST) Subject: Hardware problem Message-ID: Evening all I just bought an old PII IBM 300 GL that I installed coyote linux 2.2.3 on to act as a firewall/dhcp server for my internal network. All was working fine up until about an hour ago when the dhcp server decided that it no longer wanted to accept my requests for a new lease and timed out. I'm yet to resolve this issue because when I reboot the machine I get an "1805 error Adaptor ROM checksum failed" Theres also an error with the ram chip but I didn't expect this 1805 error so forgot to write it down. I have a 30 day warranty from the supplier I got it from but I'd prefer not to bother him with it and fix it on my own. Any help appreciated, and if any further info is required please tell me. Thanks Gardner Bell -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From gbell72-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 1 04:06:18 2003 From: gbell72-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (gbell72) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 23:06:18 -0500 (EST) Subject: Hardware problem 'update' In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I've since cleaned all my pci adaptor contacts with an erasoras some were quite dirty with no luck..I was going to attempt to clear the CMOS but unfortunatly the jumpers have found a good place to hide out of my site. I've also read a few sites, one mentioned something abt 9 beeps causing this problem, but I only recieve 2..and tht's usually only when I don't have a keyboard mouse or video hooked up and I'm quite sure I've configured my bios properly..I'm used to award medallion bios so it is possible I've messed around way too much with this one. On Fri, 31 Oct 2003, gbell72 wrote: > Evening all > > I just bought an old PII IBM 300 GL that I installed coyote linux 2.2.3 on > to act as a firewall/dhcp server for my internal network. All was working > fine up until about an hour ago when the dhcp server decided that it no > longer wanted to accept my requests for a new lease and timed out. > > I'm yet to resolve this issue because when I reboot the machine I get an > "1805 error Adaptor ROM checksum failed" Theres also an error with the > ram chip but I didn't expect this 1805 error so forgot to write it down. > I have a 30 day warranty from the supplier I got it from but I'd > prefer not to bother him with it and fix it on my own. > > Any help appreciated, and if any further info is required please tell me. > > Thanks > > Gardner Bell > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From teddymills-VFlxZYho3OA at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 1 04:22:45 2003 From: teddymills-VFlxZYho3OA at public.gmane.org (captn_silver) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 23:22:45 -0500 Subject: Hardware problem References: Message-ID: <000d01c3a02f$cd458be0$0701a8c0@viper> Start ditching PCI cards...one at a time...Start with the most useless PCI cards first... ----- Original Message ----- From: "gbell72" To: Sent: Friday, October 31, 2003 10:10 PM Subject: [TLUG]: Hardware problem > Evening all > > I just bought an old PII IBM 300 GL that I installed coyote linux 2.2.3 on > to act as a firewall/dhcp server for my internal network. All was working > fine up until about an hour ago when the dhcp server decided that it no > longer wanted to accept my requests for a new lease and timed out. > > I'm yet to resolve this issue because when I reboot the machine I get an > "1805 error Adaptor ROM checksum failed" Theres also an error with the > ram chip but I didn't expect this 1805 error so forgot to write it down. > I have a 30 day warranty from the supplier I got it from but I'd > prefer not to bother him with it and fix it on my own. > > Any help appreciated, and if any further info is required please tell me. > > Thanks > > Gardner Bell > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 1 04:49:52 2003 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 23:49:52 -0500 Subject: Hardware problem 'update' In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3FA33B70.8070607@alteeve.com> That Adapter ROM checksum failure is a very good indication that the network card's ROM is, indeed, toast. Is it an add-in card? If so, can you replace it (even temporarily) with another one? If it is on-board than I think you don't have much choice but to take the machine back. Madison gbell72 wrote: > I've since cleaned all my pci adaptor contacts with an erasoras some were > quite dirty with no luck..I was going to attempt to clear the CMOS but > unfortunatly the jumpers have found a good place to hide out of my site. > I've also read a few sites, one mentioned something abt 9 beeps causing > this problem, but I only recieve 2..and tht's usually only when I don't > have a keyboard mouse or video hooked up and I'm quite sure I've > configured my bios properly..I'm used to award medallion bios so it is > possible I've messed around way too much with this one. > > On Fri, 31 Oct 2003, gbell72 wrote: > > >>Evening all >> >>I just bought an old PII IBM 300 GL that I installed coyote linux 2.2.3 on >>to act as a firewall/dhcp server for my internal network. All was working >>fine up until about an hour ago when the dhcp server decided that it no >>longer wanted to accept my requests for a new lease and timed out. >> >>I'm yet to resolve this issue because when I reboot the machine I get an >>"1805 error Adaptor ROM checksum failed" Theres also an error with the >>ram chip but I didn't expect this 1805 error so forgot to write it down. >>I have a 30 day warranty from the supplier I got it from but I'd >>prefer not to bother him with it and fix it on my own. >> >>Any help appreciated, and if any further info is required please tell me. >> >>Thanks >> >>Gardner Bell >>-- >>The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org >>TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >>How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml >> > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From gbell72-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 1 04:45:36 2003 From: gbell72-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (gbell72) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 23:45:36 -0500 (EST) Subject: Hardware problem In-Reply-To: <000d01c3a02f$cd458be0$0701a8c0-dYW4EvVCS7c@public.gmane.org> References: <000d01c3a02f$cd458be0$0701a8c0@viper> Message-ID: All works again..but for how long who knows..I guess I'll have to wait until next dhcp lease..I tossed my 3com card and used a d-link tht I had fresh out of a box and no errors at all..thx On Fri, 31 Oct 2003, captn_silver wrote: > > Start ditching PCI cards...one at a time...Start with the most useless PCI > cards first... > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "gbell72" > To: > Sent: Friday, October 31, 2003 10:10 PM > Subject: [TLUG]: Hardware problem > > > > Evening all > > > > I just bought an old PII IBM 300 GL that I installed coyote linux 2.2.3 on > > to act as a firewall/dhcp server for my internal network. All was working > > fine up until about an hour ago when the dhcp server decided that it no > > longer wanted to accept my requests for a new lease and timed out. > > > > I'm yet to resolve this issue because when I reboot the machine I get an > > "1805 error Adaptor ROM checksum failed" Theres also an error with the > > ram chip but I didn't expect this 1805 error so forgot to write it down. > > I have a 30 day warranty from the supplier I got it from but I'd > > prefer not to bother him with it and fix it on my own. > > > > Any help appreciated, and if any further info is required please tell me. > > > > Thanks > > > > Gardner Bell > > -- > > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > > > > > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 1 04:52:13 2003 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 23:52:13 -0500 Subject: Goldilocks and the 3 bears In-Reply-To: <001201c3a007$e6aa94e0$0a01a8c0-dYW4EvVCS7c@public.gmane.org> References: <001201c3a007$e6aa94e0$0a01a8c0@viper> Message-ID: <3FA33BFD.30809@alteeve.com> What make/model is the hard drive? You may want to see if the manufacturer has an app called a "Disk Drive Overlay (DDO)". This app is a work-around way of bypassing capacity limits in the BIOS. Also, I assume, being here, that you are running Linux. Have you tried disabling HDD detection for that port (ie. Secondary master) and proceeding to boot into Linux and see if it is seen? Madison Teddy Mills wrote: > I still got that 80GB that I cannot use because the BIOS cannot understand > it. > > So theres three bowls of porridge..... > > 1) sell the drive > 2) find a computer that will understand the 80GB > 3) find an PCI-IDE controller that will undertstand the 80GB > > As for option 3, is that a valid option? I mean the computer/bios wont > understand the drive, but the IDE controller will? > > > > "You can't kill zombie processes because they're ALREADY DEAD!" (banging on > the desk) > > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 1 04:56:15 2003 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 23:56:15 -0500 Subject: Mail delivery problem on my server In-Reply-To: <20031031214225.GA3023-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <3FA13AC6.9020601@alteeve.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20031031160302.01fe95a0@mail.interlog.com> <20031031214225.GA3023@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <3FA33CEF.2020301@alteeve.com> Thank you, both! I will apply those setting and see how things go. Madison William Park wrote: > On Fri, Oct 31, 2003 at 04:08:00PM -0500, Kevin Cozens wrote: > >>At 11:22 AM 10/30/2003 -0500, Madison wrote: >> >>> The only other thing I have noticed is that, for some reason, some of >>>the mail account spool files on the server have the group "mail" set >>>where most of the others have both owner AND group set to their >>>name/group. Finally, a couple other accounts had been changed to >>>permission -rw------- (0600) where most again where -rw-rw---- (0660). I >>>tried changing my own 'mkelly' file to owner/group mkelly and setting the >>>permissions back to 0660 but the message still bounced. >> >>I just checked the settings/permissions on a SunOS box I have access to >>since I don't run Sendmail on Linux anymore. The directory which contains >>the files with the received mail has settings of 755 and chown of root.mail >>while the files in the directory are all 660 and chown'ed .mail where >> is a user ID as listed in /etc/passwd. > > > Same on my Slackware, > /var/spool/mail -- 1777 root:mail > /var/spool/mail/* -- 660 user:mail > /var/spool/mail/root -- 600 root:mail > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From gbell72-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 1 04:57:21 2003 From: gbell72-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (gbell72) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 23:57:21 -0500 (EST) Subject: Hardware problem In-Reply-To: References: <000d01c3a02f$cd458be0$0701a8c0@viper> Message-ID: One last question..I've just gone into my router via SSH and I'm looking at udhcpd.conf and the opt lease is set at 7200, with rogers I notice lease is normally set at 604800, would I cause any problems by changing it to rogers deafult lease renewal. Again thx all for your replies Gardner On Fri, 31 Oct 2003, gbell72 wrote: > All works again..but for how long who knows..I guess I'll have to wait > until next dhcp lease..I tossed my 3com card and used a d-link tht I had > fresh out of a box and no errors at all..thx > > On Fri, 31 Oct 2003, captn_silver wrote: > > > > > Start ditching PCI cards...one at a time...Start with the most useless PCI > > cards first... > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "gbell72" > > To: > > Sent: Friday, October 31, 2003 10:10 PM > > Subject: [TLUG]: Hardware problem > > > > > > > Evening all > > > > > > I just bought an old PII IBM 300 GL that I installed coyote linux 2.2.3 on > > > to act as a firewall/dhcp server for my internal network. All was working > > > fine up until about an hour ago when the dhcp server decided that it no > > > longer wanted to accept my requests for a new lease and timed out. > > > > > > I'm yet to resolve this issue because when I reboot the machine I get an > > > "1805 error Adaptor ROM checksum failed" Theres also an error with the > > > ram chip but I didn't expect this 1805 error so forgot to write it down. > > > I have a 30 day warranty from the supplier I got it from but I'd > > > prefer not to bother him with it and fix it on my own. > > > > > > Any help appreciated, and if any further info is required please tell me. > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > Gardner Bell > > > -- > > > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > > > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > > > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > > > > > > > > > > -- > > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 1 05:11:49 2003 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2003 00:11:49 -0500 Subject: Hardware problem In-Reply-To: References: <000d01c3a02f$cd458be0$0701a8c0@viper> Message-ID: <3FA34095.3070703@alteeve.com> Nope, it would simply renew less often. Madison gbell72 wrote: > One last question..I've just gone into my router via SSH and I'm looking > at udhcpd.conf and the opt lease is set at 7200, with rogers I notice > lease is normally set at 604800, would I cause any problems by changing it > to rogers deafult lease renewal. > Again thx all for your replies > > Gardner -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From drew-vnkfHpbZfesgsBAKwltoeQ at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 1 07:06:21 2003 From: drew-vnkfHpbZfesgsBAKwltoeQ at public.gmane.org (Andrew G. Hammond) Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2003 02:06:21 -0500 Subject: P4C800 Motherboard In-Reply-To: <20031024152419.GZ20573-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <3F99416F.1060103@rogers.com> <20031024152419.GZ20573@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <3FA35B6D.8030801@xyzzy.dhs.org> 2.6 series definately has support for SATA chipsets. It's under the SCSI subsection. And I strongly recommend against Promise Raid cards. If you must have hardware raid, get a 3ware. Not only are they supported on linux explicitly by 3ware, they are actually pretty decent performers. I went with the Intel P4C board. It gets delivered tomorrow. Will report to the thread how it does with drivers etc. Drew Lennart Sorensen wrote: >On Fri, Oct 24, 2003 at 11:12:47AM -0400, Kerry Panchoo wrote: > > >>Has anyone managed to get the Asus P4C800 Deluxe board fully working-- >>i've tried the stuff suggested on the online forums- with very little or >> no positive results. >> >>I'm running red hat 9.0 with the 2.4.20-20.9smp Kernel >> >>I've got 2 identical SATA 120GB hard disks connected up to the raid and >>one 120GB IDE drive on ide0 >> >>the Promise raid - FastTrak 378 doesnt work-- cant get it to run- i set >>the bios to compatible mode and tried to install-- didnt work.. any >>suggestions? >> >> > >I would personally use Linux software raid over Promise software raid. >At least with the linux one you can move the raid to another machine in >the future without loosing access to the data. I also suspect the Linux >software raid is slightly more cpu efficient. > > > >>the 3COM gigabit lan drivers are useless-- i got it to work-- but you >>cant go to google etc-- pretty bizzare >> >> > >You can ping other machines on the network? > >Have you tried using a 2.4.22 kernel, which has many driver updates. I >think serial ATA support is a very recent addition to the 2.4 kernels, >and only for a few chipsets. > >CHeck the lspci or /proc/pci listing for the SATA controller, and post >it and someone can look up which kernel if any supports that controller. > >Lennart Sorensen >-- >The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org >TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 1 10:51:17 2003 From: davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (david j patrick) Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2003 02:51:17 -0800 Subject: apt-get problem - hero2zero, again ! In-Reply-To: <1067626954.16363.43.camel-VXIkh0TWzyg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FA289B7.3040306@sympatico.ca> <1067621811.16362.11.camel@yoda> <3FA28F94.50609@sympatico.ca> <1067625026.16363.21.camel@yoda> <3FA2ADD0.7020105@sympatico.ca> <1067626954.16363.43.camel@yoda> Message-ID: <20031101025117.49df6be4.davidjpatrick@sympatico.ca> > The only thing better than beer... is free beer! Mmmmm.... beer.... > > Kareem > And speaking of beer, I'm crying into mine right now ! hero2zero When we last tuned in, our hero was banishing multiple conflicts with a single stroke! Conflicts resolved, he swore that his system would never again be fraught with unmet dependancies and apt-get dist-upgraded to a keen edge .. can you see this coming ? apt-get dist-upgrade went off smoothly, and the root prompt surfaced without an error as I flew out the door. On return I reboot and guess what ? no alsa no ethernet card found no ADSL, no net pppoeconf looks strangely less helpfull and basically the box is off line ! I'm sending you this SOS after booting a damnsmalllinux4-4.10 iso, running PPPoEconf, installing firebird, firing up ,and configuring, sylpheed and NOW I gotta hit the sack, cause I'm working tomorrow ! ya still got a brewskie comin your way.. and I was _just_ lookin' at mondo.. thank god (or Klaus Knopper) for bootable linux ! thanks, djp -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 1 13:00:46 2003 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2003 08:00:46 -0500 Subject: Hardware problem In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3FA3AE7E.1000400@rogers.com> gbell72 wrote: > Evening all > > I just bought an old PII IBM 300 GL that I installed coyote linux 2.2.3 on > to act as a firewall/dhcp server for my internal network. All was working > fine up until about an hour ago when the dhcp server decided that it no > longer wanted to accept my requests for a new lease and timed out. > > I'm yet to resolve this issue because when I reboot the machine I get an > "1805 error Adaptor ROM checksum failed" Theres also an error with the > ram chip but I didn't expect this 1805 error so forgot to write it down. > I have a 30 day warranty from the supplier I got it from but I'd > prefer not to bother him with it and fix it on my own. > > Any help appreciated, and if any further info is required please tell me. The 1st thing you should do, is go to the IBM site, to see what documentation you can find. Also try searching the IBM site for that error message. IBM has a lot of info available, but it may take a bit of digging. You might also try on of the hardware newsgroups. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From kareem-d+8TeBu5bOew5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 1 14:29:39 2003 From: kareem-d+8TeBu5bOew5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org (Kareem Shehata) Date: 01 Nov 2003 09:29:39 -0500 Subject: apt-get problem - hero2zero, again ! In-Reply-To: <20031101025117.49df6be4.davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FA289B7.3040306@sympatico.ca> <1067621811.16362.11.camel@yoda> <3FA28F94.50609@sympatico.ca> <1067625026.16363.21.camel@yoda> <3FA2ADD0.7020105@sympatico.ca> <1067626954.16363.43.camel@yoda> <20031101025117.49df6be4.davidjpatrick@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <1067696979.16362.54.camel@yoda> On Sat, 2003-11-01 at 05:51, david j patrick wrote: > hero2zero I'm not aware of that command, where can I find the .deb? > When we last tuned in, our hero was banishing multiple conflicts with a single stroke! > Conflicts resolved, he swore that his system would never again be fraught with unmet dependancies and apt-get dist-upgraded to a keen edge .. can you see this coming ? > > apt-get dist-upgrade went off smoothly, and the root prompt surfaced without an error as I flew out the door. > On return I reboot and guess what ? > no alsa > no ethernet card found > no ADSL, no net > pppoeconf looks strangely less helpfull and basically the box is off line ! I haven't actually dont a dist-upgrade myself yet, but these things should be there unless it installed a new kernel for you. What kind of network card do you have? Have you tried modprobe on the NIC module and alsa modules? I have a feeling they may be there, just not being loaded by the new startup scripts. > I'm sending you this SOS after booting a damnsmalllinux4-4.10 iso, running PPPoEconf, installing firebird, firing up ,and configuring, sylpheed and NOW I gotta hit the sack, cause I'm working tomorrow ! > > ya still got a brewskie comin your way.. > and I was _just_ lookin' at mondo.. > thank god (or Klaus Knopper) for bootable linux ! Always keep a bootable distro or three around just in case. Kareem -- /********************************************************************* kareem-d+8TeBu5bOew5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org - Kareem Shehata - 416-676-6611 -------------------------------------------------------------------- The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposed ideas in the mind at the same time, and still retain the ability to function. -- F. Scott Fitzgerald (1896 - 1940) ********************************************************************/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 1 12:02:57 2003 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter L. Peres) Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2003 14:02:57 +0200 (IST) Subject: IT Job creations... IT job losses? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 31 Oct 2003, Justin Zygmont wrote: > i'm careful:) I heard that one before. Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 1 12:08:53 2003 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter L. Peres) Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2003 14:08:53 +0200 (IST) Subject: IT Job creations... IT job losses? In-Reply-To: <46123.216.138.194.32.1067623147.squirrel-16UnNR4aCrhlws70yGkXPA@public.gmane.org> References: <000d01c39e63$03c92290$24af9d18@alpha><44593.216.138.194.32.1067562704.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca><20031031065348.4d3e2503.joehill@sympatico.ca><200310310820.15079.fraser@wehave.net> <20031031083316.3278bcd7.joehill@sympatico.ca> <46123.216.138.194.32.1067623147.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, 31 Oct 2003, Keith Mastin wrote: > > >> What exactly is Lindows doing that is so awful? I don't understand > >> why everyone is bashing them, I believe there's something that I've > >> missed. From what I see of their product it looks excellent. > > I gag at the idea that linux guis resemble windoh$s guis. We're copying > them, not leading them, then we wonder why we always have the feeling that > our flies are undone. Who is copying them ? You don't have to run a m$ lookalike window manager. I don't. And OpenOffice is just another application. > When we're talking about wide market distribution of a ready-to-wear OS, > we are not talking about selling what's under the hood, we're talking > about selling a paint job. The average schmoe doesn't care about the > subtleties of multi-tasking or secured filesystems, but they should be > able to get the benefit of them out-of-the-box while convincing themselves > (and all the friends) that kde or gnome IS linux. How true. And how bad. The one irk I have is the phrase 'linux is not ready for the desktop'. It is necessary to make users understand that gui!=os. A linux machine with OpenOffice and X11 installed is indistinguishable from a M$ powered (rofl) pc running office for the average user. So what exactly is the desktop and what means 'being ready for it' ? Preinstalled Openoffice available on first boot ? Like in Lindows & Co ? Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 1 15:49:58 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2003 10:49:58 -0500 Subject: IT Job creations... IT job losses? In-Reply-To: References: <000d01c39e63$03c92290$24af9d18@alpha> <44593.216.138.194.32.1067562704.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> <20031031065348.4d3e2503.joehill@sympatico.ca> <200310310820.15079.fraser@wehave.net> <20031031083316.3278bcd7.joehill@sympatico.ca> <46123.216.138.194.32.1067623147.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> Message-ID: <20031101104958.757c9dcf.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Sat, 1 Nov 2003 14:08:53 +0200 (IST) "Peter L. Peres" uttered: > The one irk I have is the phrase 'linux is not ready for the desktop'. Absolutement. This is the FUD I deal with every time I tell someone about installing Linux on their desktop. They are so brainwashed, they simply cannot believe that most distros out there will boot into a *complete* and *useable* GUI, with many choices of mail, web, office, chat, and amusement software already installed. No hassles with immediately having to go to Windows Update for the 2 hour patch process, no downloading of anti-everything software, no running to the software shop for Orifice or other productivity apps, *it just works*. Then when you try and explain that you don't even have just one choice for your "GUI", there are literally *dozens*, many of them, like XFCE, very user-friendly even for newbs, they are shocked beyond belief. And *then* when you tell them that their "ancient" P3 450 will run like a wild animal, unlike that bloated XP "upgrade"...well, you've all seen the facial expression...;-) -- JoeHill Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Once you've tried to change the world you find it's a whole bunch easier to change your mind. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 1 17:11:26 2003 From: hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org (Howard Gibson) Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2003 12:11:26 -0500 Subject: Goldilocks and the 3 bears In-Reply-To: <001201c3a007$e6aa94e0$0a01a8c0-dYW4EvVCS7c@public.gmane.org> References: <001201c3a007$e6aa94e0$0a01a8c0@viper> Message-ID: <20031101121126.551a5f8c.hgibson@eol.ca> On Fri, 31 Oct 2003 18:37:07 -0500 "Teddy Mills" wrote: > > I still got that 80GB that I cannot use because the BIOS cannot understand > it. > > So theres three bowls of porridge..... > > 1) sell the drive > 2) find a computer that will understand the 80GB > 3) find an PCI-IDE controller that will undertstand the 80GB > > As for option 3, is that a valid option? I mean the computer/bios wont > understand the drive, but the IDE controller will? Teddy, I had that problem too. Get a Promise card. -- Howard Gibson hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org howard-42qnO8ePF9cV+D8aMU/kSg at public.gmane.org http://home.eol.ca/~hgibson -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 1 17:14:12 2003 From: john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (John Moniz) Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2003 12:14:12 -0500 Subject: Missing device In-Reply-To: <3FA1D118.5050402-F0u+EriZ6ihBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <3FA1B699.9000207@sympatico.ca> <3FA1D118.5050402@truxtar.com> Message-ID: <3FA3E9E4.6080702@sympatico.ca> Anton Markov wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > Hi John, > > What kernel version and which distribution are you running? You need a > 2.4 series kernel (you could patch a 2.2 kernel, but I think it's best > to just upgrade). > > Try: > mknod /dev/raw1394 c 171 0 > modprobe raw1394 > > This did the job for my Via OHCI adapter and Sony TRV140 DV camcorder. > > If you need more help, check out the info at > > > I would also suggest you use a higher-level program such as Kino > > > Enjoy :) > > John Moniz wrote: > | I am trying to capture some video from a dig video camera connected > to a > | firewire card. When I run the dvgrab command, I get the following > error: > | > | raw1394 - couldn't get handle: No such device > | This error usually means that the ieee1394 driver is not loaded or that > | /dev/raw1394 does not exist. > | > | I have these modules loaded: > | ohci1394 18600 0 (unused) > | ieee1394 45388 0 [ohci1394] > | > | But I have no /dev/raw1394 device listed. How do I make/get such a > | device? I couldn't find an "mk..." type command that might do it. > | > | Thanks, > | > | John. > | I'm now capturing digital video. It looks like it was "modprobe raw1394" that did the trick (thanks Anton and Kareem). When I had done lsmod, it had looked to me that all the modules were already loaded, but weren't. I still haven't seen any of the video, so am not totally sure dvgrab is working properly. When I try to play the .avi file with mplayer, I get the error: "AVI: Missing video stream!? Contact the author, it may be a bug :( " - in the dv1 format and I get the error: "Error opening/initializing the selected video_out (-vo) device" - in the dv2 format. Now I am trying all the various formats. This is a brand new installation of RH9 and I just installed mplayer with apt-get, so I can't be sure mplayer is working properly - have to find a movie file I know isn't corrupted to test mplayer. John. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From scruss-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 1 17:38:08 2003 From: scruss-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (Stewart C. Russell) Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2003 12:38:08 -0500 Subject: SCSI adapter preventing boot In-Reply-To: <20031024170618.UDDG28090.tomts10-srv.bellnexxia.net-+p+fmPhZGT/7MnaR63zYdQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20031024170618.UDDG28090.tomts10-srv.bellnexxia.net@[209.226.175.18]> Message-ID: <3FA3EF80.8010207@sympatico.ca> finally got to the bottom of this: Gentoo-patched kernel sources have broken Adaptec aic7xxx drivers. Using generic sources fixed it. Now all I have to do is work out why VueScan locks up the system now ;-( Thanks to all who helped. Stewart -- $,="\n";foreach(split('',"\3\3\3c>\0>c\177cc\0~c~``\0cc\177cc")) {$a++;$_=unpack('B8',$_);tr,01,\40#,;$b[$a%6].=$_};print @b,"\n" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 1 17:41:48 2003 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2003 12:41:48 -0500 Subject: "As for the GPL, it's total war." In-Reply-To: <1067580484.3755.27.camel-eTg7c9BlEq95hrpxxnI5yFifK/mc/01a@public.gmane.org> References: <20031030055942.0ae0f1d3.joehill@sympatico.ca> <20031030132133.GB27628@pluto.bsdwebhosting.net> <1067580484.3755.27.camel@rincewind.discworld> Message-ID: <20031101174147.GA4918@m433> On Fri, Oct 31, 2003 at 01:08:11AM -0500, Marcus Brubaker wrote > Honestly, the more I read about this case, the more I believe that > SCO honestly doesn't expect to win. Here's my take on their strategy. They plan to win big by losing big. This will take some explaining. SCO's benefactor, Microsoft, has an absolutely crummy OS when it comes to security. They would love to use all that secure OSS stuff out there to fix up Windows, but using it would require MS to distribute their source code under the GPL. So how does MS get rid of the GPL... simple, get IBM and SGI to defeat it in court !!! IBM and SGI obviously won't do it willingly, so you need to use some trickery along the lines of child-psychology. First of all, ignore the press releases, which are purely diversionary tactics. Concentrate on the lawsuits that SCO actually has filed... 1) Sequent systems (later acquired by IBM) invented and patented NUMA. They included NUMA in their proprietary Dynix, which used code licenced from the old unix base. SCO claims that the unix licence is viral and therefore NUMA is now SCO's property. 2) SGI developed a super-duper file system called XFS, and used it in their licenced unix. SCO claims that the unix licence is viral and therefore XFS is now SCO's property. 3) A US federal judge reads the claims, wets his pants laughing, and throws the viral-licence claims out of court. 4) SCO and/or MS start using GPL'd code without honouring the licence terms about redistribution. FSF takes them to court and claims that the GPL licence is viral, and therefore MS/SCO must distribute the source of the entire OS. 5) MS/SCO point to SCO vs IBM and SCO vs SGI as legal precedent that viral licences are invalid. Oops. Yes, I realize that SCO's viral-licence claims are a gross parody of GPL, but I think that's their game. -- Walter Dnes Email users are divided into two classes; 1) Those who have effective spam-blocking 2) Those who wish they did -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 1 17:40:56 2003 From: clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (CLIFFORD ILKAY) Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2003 12:40:56 -0500 Subject: IT Job creations... IT job losses? In-Reply-To: <20031101104958.757c9dcf.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <000d01c39e63$03c92290$24af9d18@alpha> <44593.216.138.194.32.1067562704.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> <20031031065348.4d3e2503.joehill@sympatico.ca> <200310310820.15079.fraser@wehave.net> <20031031083316.3278bcd7.joehill@sympatico.ca> <46123.216.138.194.32.1067623147.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> <20031101104958.757c9dcf.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20031101120236.02962588@localhost> At 10:49 01/11/2003 -0500, JoeHill wrote: >On Sat, 1 Nov 2003 14:08:53 +0200 (IST) >"Peter L. Peres" uttered: > > > The one irk I have is the phrase 'linux is not ready for the desktop'. > >Absolutement. This is the FUD I deal with every time I tell someone >about installing Linux on their desktop. They are so brainwashed, they >simply cannot believe that most distros out there will boot into a >*complete* and *useable* GUI, with many choices of mail, web, office, >chat, and amusement software already installed. No hassles with >immediately having to go to Windows Update for the 2 hour patch process, >no downloading of anti-everything software, no running to the >software shop for Orifice or other productivity apps, *it just works*. > >Then when you try and explain that you don't even have just one choice >for your "GUI", there are literally *dozens*, many of them, like XFCE, >very user-friendly even for newbs, they are shocked beyond belief. And >*then* when you tell them that their "ancient" P3 450 will run like a >wild animal, unlike that bloated XP "upgrade"...well, you've all seen >the facial expression...;-) The average user that I encounter is impressed more by eye candy than technical details. I think KDE has the best eye candy of all the desktop managers but it is quite resource intensive. Someone using KDE on a P3/450 is not going to notice much, if any, improvement over Windows XP on the same hardware. That is not to say that they would not like using it but rather that we have to moderate our hyperbole somewhat. Claiming that a P3/450 is going to run Linux like a "wild animal" is a dubious strategy since it will set up unrealistic expectations. Trying to sell them on XFCE I think is a lost cause. CDE and all those other user interfaces never gained wide acceptance for a good reason. They were, and still are, ugly user interfaces that only geeks and zealots could love. Trying to sell users that I deal with on XFCE over Windows XP would be like getting them to stop using MS Word in favour of LyX or stop using Eudora for the "elegance" of Mutt. OpenOffice is functional but it is not yet up to the standards of usability of MS Office. MS Office is more polished and so it should be given the vast sums of money MS has poured into it. A fussy user may not like OO because it seems to take an eon to launch, it does not offer the ability to do things like changing the range of a sum function by dragging the box that covers the range, etc. Granted, Microsoft plays tricks to make Office more responsive by pre loading many of the DLLs that Office uses when Windows is started so that when a user launches Excel, it just appears as opposed to grinding away for 22 seconds (I timed it) before the user sees a spreadsheet. Koffice looks promising because it is tightly integrated with KDE and it does not seem to suffer the same performance problems as OO but, up to version 1.2.1 is not ready for prime time yet. It lacks many features and has too many bugs to be usable. I use OO and MS Office on a regular basis and both have their strengths and weaknesses. For the moment, I think MS Office still has an edge but OO is catching up rapidly. So, is Linux ready for the desktop? My answer is "It depends." For the average user who just types letters, uses e-mail, uses a browser, and maybe uses spreadsheets, using decent hardware, sure. We have replaced green screen terminals, and Windows and Mac OS desktops with Linux desktops and no one has gone back but, we have been careful to not oversell Linux. Regards, Clifford Ilkay Dinamis Corporation 3266 Yonge Street, Suite 1419 Toronto, Ontario Canada M4N 3P6 Tel: 416-410-3326 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jzygmont-tEQKYFGiemxAYG7eUwYNkWD2FQJk+8+b at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 1 18:47:36 2003 From: jzygmont-tEQKYFGiemxAYG7eUwYNkWD2FQJk+8+b at public.gmane.org (Justin Zygmont) Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2003 13:47:36 -0500 (EST) Subject: IT Job creations... IT job losses? In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20031101120236.02962588-bi+AKbBUZKZeoWH0uzbU5w@public.gmane.org> References: <5.2.0.9.0.20031101120236.02962588@localhost> Message-ID: it's so sad to hear that, I love XFCE. I used it for years, and cant stand anything else, especially with that pitiful X button in the corner): Actually, I see you can get that in XFCE too, what's this world coming to? On Sat, 1 Nov 2003, CLIFFORD ILKAY wrote: > At 10:49 01/11/2003 -0500, JoeHill wrote: > >On Sat, 1 Nov 2003 14:08:53 +0200 (IST) > >"Peter L. Peres" uttered: > > > > > The one irk I have is the phrase 'linux is not ready for the desktop'. > > > >Absolutement. This is the FUD I deal with every time I tell someone > >about installing Linux on their desktop. They are so brainwashed, they > >simply cannot believe that most distros out there will boot into a > >*complete* and *useable* GUI, with many choices of mail, web, office, > >chat, and amusement software already installed. No hassles with > >immediately having to go to Windows Update for the 2 hour patch process, > >no downloading of anti-everything software, no running to the > >software shop for Orifice or other productivity apps, *it just works*. > > > >Then when you try and explain that you don't even have just one choice > >for your "GUI", there are literally *dozens*, many of them, like XFCE, > >very user-friendly even for newbs, they are shocked beyond belief. And > >*then* when you tell them that their "ancient" P3 450 will run like a > >wild animal, unlike that bloated XP "upgrade"...well, you've all seen > >the facial expression...;-) > > The average user that I encounter is impressed more by eye candy than > technical details. I think KDE has the best eye candy of all the desktop > managers but it is quite resource intensive. Someone using KDE on a P3/450 > is not going to notice much, if any, improvement over Windows XP on the > same hardware. That is not to say that they would not like using it but > rather that we have to moderate our hyperbole somewhat. Claiming that a > P3/450 is going to run Linux like a "wild animal" is a dubious strategy > since it will set up unrealistic expectations. Trying to sell them on XFCE > I think is a lost cause. CDE and all those other user interfaces never > gained wide acceptance for a good reason. They were, and still are, ugly > user interfaces that only geeks and zealots could love. Trying to sell > users that I deal with on XFCE over Windows XP would be like getting them > to stop using MS Word in favour of LyX or stop using Eudora for the > "elegance" of Mutt. > > OpenOffice is functional but it is not yet up to the standards of usability > of MS Office. MS Office is more polished and so it should be given the vast > sums of money MS has poured into it. A fussy user may not like OO because > it seems to take an eon to launch, it does not offer the ability to do > things like changing the range of a sum function by dragging the box that > covers the range, etc. Granted, Microsoft plays tricks to make Office more > responsive by pre loading many of the DLLs that Office uses when Windows is > started so that when a user launches Excel, it just appears as opposed to > grinding away for 22 seconds (I timed it) before the user sees a > spreadsheet. Koffice looks promising because it is tightly integrated with > KDE and it does not seem to suffer the same performance problems as OO but, > up to version 1.2.1 is not ready for prime time yet. It lacks many features > and has too many bugs to be usable. I use OO and MS Office on a regular > basis and both have their strengths and weaknesses. For the moment, I think > MS Office still has an edge but OO is catching up rapidly. > > So, is Linux ready for the desktop? My answer is "It depends." For the > average user who just types letters, uses e-mail, uses a browser, and maybe > uses spreadsheets, using decent hardware, sure. We have replaced green > screen terminals, and Windows and Mac OS desktops with Linux desktops and > no one has gone back but, we have been careful to not oversell Linux. > > Regards, > > Clifford Ilkay > Dinamis Corporation > 3266 Yonge Street, Suite 1419 > Toronto, Ontario > Canada M4N 3P6 > > Tel: 416-410-3326 > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 1 18:48:33 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2003 13:48:33 -0500 Subject: IT Job creations... IT job losses? In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20031101120236.02962588-bi+AKbBUZKZeoWH0uzbU5w@public.gmane.org> References: <000d01c39e63$03c92290$24af9d18@alpha> <44593.216.138.194.32.1067562704.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> <20031031065348.4d3e2503.joehill@sympatico.ca> <200310310820.15079.fraser@wehave.net> <20031031083316.3278bcd7.joehill@sympatico.ca> <46123.216.138.194.32.1067623147.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> <5.2.0.9.0.20031101120236.02962588@localhost> Message-ID: <20031101134833.50ea51bb.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Sat, 01 Nov 2003 12:40:56 -0500 CLIFFORD ILKAY uttered: > Trying to sell them on XFCE I think is a lost cause. CDE and all > those other user interfaces never gained wide acceptance for a good > reason. They were, and still are, ugly user interfaces that only geeks > and zealots could love. WTF?! Have you even *looked* at XFCE4?! LOL! It's better looking and has all the functionality and user friendliness of KDE or Gnome, without all the bloat. It's just as easy to configure as KDE, comes with all kinds of goodies like it's own file manager, taskbar and panel that allow the user to easily add menu's, applets, and program launchers, has it's own plugins for system tray, shite man, I could go on forever... Best of all, thanks to the efforts of many in the Linux community, it is *very* easy to install with RPM or Debian packages contributed by it's fans. I would *easily* recommend XFCE4 over KDE or Gnome any day, for newbs *or* experienced users. -- JoeHill Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Living in the complex world of the future is somewhat like having bees live in your head. But, there they are. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 1 19:15:46 2003 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter L. Peres) Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2003 21:15:46 +0200 (IST) Subject: strange xmkmf problem Message-ID: Hi, I have a strange xmkmf problem. When I xmkmf a makefile I get some macros that do not expand. Like: MComplexProgramTarget(filemanager,$(LOCAL_LIBRARIES),NullParameter) (this comes from a Imakefile that comes with Openmotif demo programs). I do not know what to make of this. The macros are not defined anywhere. The resulting Makefiles is broken and needs to be fixed by hand. What could cause such a strange fault ? Where would be this macro defined (I have read xmkmf man and checked files and paths etc). Any pointers would be welcome. Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 1 19:32:00 2003 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter L. Peres) Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2003 21:32:00 +0200 (IST) Subject: "As for the GPL, it's total war." In-Reply-To: <20031101174147.GA4918-DPTsmTRGv3o@public.gmane.org> References: <20031030055942.0ae0f1d3.joehill@sympatico.ca> <20031030132133.GB27628@pluto.bsdwebhosting.net> <1067580484.3755.27.camel@rincewind.discworld> <20031101174147.GA4918@m433> Message-ID: On Sat, 1 Nov 2003, Walter Dnes wrote: > Yes, I realize that SCO's viral-licence claims are a gross parody of > GPL, but I think that's their game. Time to add a clause like that of the OSF/OG license's to the GPL, to explicitly prohibit the use of the source on non-open systems (and ask all Linux software publishers past and present to add this clause to their release clause) (I am aware that the GPL contains a similar line): Quote from Openmotif sample program header: /* * @OPENGROUP_COPYRIGHT@ * COPYRIGHT NOTICE * Copyright (c) 1990, 1991, 1992, 1993 Open Software Foundation, Inc. * Copyright (c) 1996, 1997, 1998, 1999, 2000 The Open Group * ALL RIGHTS RESERVED (MOTIF). See the file named COPYRIGHT.MOTIF for * the full copyright text. * * This software is subject to an open license. It may only be * used on, with or for operating systems which are themselves open * source systems. You must contact The Open Group for a license * allowing distribution and sublicensing of this software on, with, * or for operating systems which are not Open Source programs. * * See http://www.opengroup.org/openmotif/license for full * details of the license agreement. Any use, reproduction, or * distribution of the program constitutes recipient's acceptance of * this agreement. * Peter PS: It would be nice to glue a suitable clause from a SCO-written license into the GPL. That would introduce them to the art of recursion. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 1 19:38:05 2003 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter L. Peres) Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2003 21:38:05 +0200 (IST) Subject: IT Job creations... IT job losses? In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20031101120236.02962588-bi+AKbBUZKZeoWH0uzbU5w@public.gmane.org> References: <000d01c39e63$03c92290$24af9d18@alpha> <44593.216.138.194.32.1067562704.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> <20031031065348.4d3e2503.joehill@sympatico.ca> <200310310820.15079.fraser@wehave.net> <20031031083316.3278bcd7.joehill@sympatico.ca> <46123.216.138.194.32.1067623147.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> <5.2.0.9.0.20031101120236.02962588@localhost> Message-ID: On Sat, 1 Nov 2003, CLIFFORD ILKAY wrote: > responsive by pre loading many of the DLLs that Office uses when Windows is > started so that when a user launches Excel, it just appears as opposed to > grinding away for 22 seconds (I timed it) before the user sees a > spreadsheet. Koffice looks promising because it is tightly integrated with Small nitpick: OO is written in Java afaik, and most of the time is spent by the Java hulk stepping out of its package(s). If OO would be written in C++ and statically linked (shudder) it should come up at about disk speed, assuming the right optimizations are used, just like Excel on M$. > So, is Linux ready for the desktop? My answer is "It depends." For the > average user who just types letters, uses e-mail, uses a browser, and maybe > uses spreadsheets, using decent hardware, sure. We have replaced green > screen terminals, and Windows and Mac OS desktops with Linux desktops and > no one has gone back but, we have been careful to not oversell Linux. So who is the average user who is not so average and what apps does he need that requires M$ ? Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 1 19:41:11 2003 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter L. Peres) Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2003 21:41:11 +0200 (IST) Subject: IT Job creations... IT job losses? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Fyi I run fvwm (not fvwm2). I don't need eye candy to eat up desktop space, I need access to 2200+ executables. Clicking on the gray looks like a good idea to get there. I tried all the others and I went back to fvwm. Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 1 19:34:23 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2003 14:34:23 -0500 Subject: IT Job creations... IT job losses? In-Reply-To: References: <000d01c39e63$03c92290$24af9d18@alpha> <44593.216.138.194.32.1067562704.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> <20031031065348.4d3e2503.joehill@sympatico.ca> <200310310820.15079.fraser@wehave.net> <20031031083316.3278bcd7.joehill@sympatico.ca> <46123.216.138.194.32.1067623147.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> <5.2.0.9.0.20031101120236.02962588@localhost> Message-ID: <20031101143423.507c7f9f.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Sat, 1 Nov 2003 21:38:05 +0200 (IST) "Peter L. Peres" uttered: > > Small nitpick: OO is written in Java afaik, and most of the time is > spent by the Java hulk stepping out of its package(s). If OO would be > written in C++ and statically linked (shudder) it should come up at > about disk speed, assuming the right optimizations are used, just like > Excel on M$. There has been definite improvement, the latest release opens in a matter of a few seconds on my P3, and that's only because I use a WM that doesn't preload the OO libs at startup, otherwise it would be pretty much instantaneous. Sun just will *not* give up on Java, eh? ;-) -- JoeHill Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ My theology, briefly, is that the universe was dictated but not signed. -- Christopher Morley -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 1 20:18:37 2003 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter L. Peres) Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2003 22:18:37 +0200 (IST) Subject: Another (?) online magazine Message-ID: but a good one (very on topic) and new to me: http://www.free-soft.org/FSM/english/issue03/ Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From shijialee-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 1 20:31:30 2003 From: shijialee-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (James) Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2003 12:31:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: IT Job creations... IT job losses? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20031101203130.46914.qmail@web40207.mail.yahoo.com> > The one irk I have is the phrase 'linux is not ready for the desktop'. It > is necessary to make users understand that gui!=os. no. to a user, GUI is the OS. the users don't see and don't want to know what underneath is. To a common user, GUI is Everthing. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears http://launch.yahoo.com/promos/britneyspears/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 1 20:47:14 2003 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter L. Peres) Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2003 22:47:14 +0200 (IST) Subject: gui ueber alles Message-ID: If the gui is everything and they don't care about anything else, then they also don't care what car they drive as long as it's blue laquered and has beige upholstery, right ? ;-) Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From gbell72-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 1 20:57:42 2003 From: gbell72-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (gbell72) Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2003 15:57:42 -0500 (EST) Subject: cd-rom/soundcard Message-ID: I just pulled a creative 32x cd-rom and a soundblaster AWE 64 out of my PII if anyone wantes em..I have no use for them..if not I'm trashin them. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From kareem-d+8TeBu5bOew5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 1 22:09:19 2003 From: kareem-d+8TeBu5bOew5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org (Kareem Shehata) Date: 01 Nov 2003 17:09:19 -0500 Subject: gui ueber alles In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1067724559.16362.71.camel@yoda> On Sat, 2003-11-01 at 15:47, Peter L. Peres wrote: > > If the gui is everything and they don't care about anything else, then > they also don't care what car they drive as long as it's blue laquered and > has beige upholstery, right ? ;-) Yup. I was at a friend of the family a while ago, and he was talking about how great his Hyundai Elantra was. I don't mean he was talking about how fuel efficient it was or inexpensive or anything like that, he wondered at how well it drove on the highway and the "pickup" and everything else. For those who don't follow cars in detail, most Hyundai's, including the Elantra, have a sowing machine for an engine. They handle like folded newspaper boats. All he cared about was that it looked good and didn't feel like a steamliner. He had no idea what good handling was, the difference between gearing and engine torque, or what real speed is - he just liked his car. Which isn't a bad thing, is just illustrated to me how much the average person has no idea how anything works these days. On another note, if you're going to buy a cheap piece of crap, at least buy a locally made piece of crap. The parts are cheaper that way. Kareem -- /********************************************************************* kareem-d+8TeBu5bOew5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org - Kareem Shehata - 416-676-6611 -------------------------------------------------------------------- The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposed ideas in the mind at the same time, and still retain the ability to function. -- F. Scott Fitzgerald (1896 - 1940) ********************************************************************/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jwtlai-Xhj3G7Rj6JI at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 1 22:20:12 2003 From: jwtlai-Xhj3G7Rj6JI at public.gmane.org (Jim W Lai) Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2003 16:20:12 -0600 (CST) Subject: IT Job creations... IT job losses? In-Reply-To: <20031101143423.507c7f9f.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <20031101143423.507c7f9f.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: On Sat, 1 Nov 2003, JoeHill wrote: > Sun just will *not* give up on Java, eh? ;-) They even claim to have made significant optimizations in the Linux JVM to keep things up to speed, using native POSIX threads under Red Hat 9. http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/technicalArticles/JavaTechandLinux/RedHat/ They also have a deal going on with SuSE. http://www.sun.com/smi/Press/sunflash/2003-08/sunflash.20030801.1.html Definitely not giving up on the Linux front either. Jim -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 1 22:48:42 2003 From: cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org (cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org) Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2003 17:48:42 -0500 Subject: OpenOffice.org Performance In-Reply-To: Message from "Peter L. Peres" of "Sat, 01 Nov 2003 21:38:05 +0200." References: <000d01c39e63$03c92290$24af9d18@alpha> <44593.216.138.194.32.1067562704.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> <20031031065348.4d3e2503.joehill@sympatico.ca> <200310310820.15079.fraser@wehave.net> <20031031083316.3278bcd7.joehill@sympatico.ca> <46123.216.138.194.32.1067623147.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> <5.2.0.9.0.20031101120236.02962588@localhost> Message-ID: <20031101224843.789094092@cbbrowne.com> > Small nitpick: OO is written in Java afaik, and most of the time is spent > by the Java hulk stepping out of its package(s). If OO would be written in > C++ and statically linked (shudder) it should come up at about disk speed, > assuming the right optimizations are used, just like Excel on M$. WRONG. OpenOffice.org depends on: a) libc6 (meaning some of it is in C) b) libstdc++ (meaning some of it is in C++) There are NO inherent dependancies on Java, except in certain extensions. OpenOffice.org IS written in C++. If the issues with its performance have to do with the language that it is implemented in, then it is C++ that is to blame, not Java. Reimplementing things in C++ is _NOT_ a universal panacea; the fact that it imposes considerable complexity of managing memory allocation and deallocation on programmers makes it quite easy for a move to C++ to worsen problems rather than to make them better. My installations of OpenOffice.org contain none of the Java components, and are certainly not affected by inefficiencies of that nature. OO _is_ quite slow, and the only language that can be pointed at for blame for that is C++. -- wm(X,Y):-write(X),write('@'),write(Y). wm('cbbrowne','ntlug.org'). http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/finances.html Health is merely the slowest possible rate at which one can die. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lloyd-fEEwcc3XMu8jODpR/OX0VQ at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 1 23:38:32 2003 From: lloyd-fEEwcc3XMu8jODpR/OX0VQ at public.gmane.org (Lloyd D Budd) Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2003 18:38:32 -0500 Subject: Another (?) online magazine In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1067729912.15156.9.camel@localhost> On Sat, 2003-11-01 at 15:18, Peter L. Peres wrote: > but a good one (very on topic) and new to me: > > http://www.free-soft.org/FSM/english/issue03/ With 3 issues, and the most recent "monthly" issuing being from March 2003 I do not know how "topical" it can be :-p -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 1 23:56:47 2003 From: cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org (cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org) Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2003 18:56:47 -0500 Subject: after Linux, what? in place of Hurd, Eros, Brazil,...? In-Reply-To: Message from Toomas Karmo of "Wed, 29 Oct 2003 16:46:01 EST." <20031029214601.GB2221-qazKcTl6WRFWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org> References: <20031029214601.GB2221@interlog.com> Message-ID: <20031101235648.900AE4092@cbbrowne.com> Toomas Karmo wrote: > I hereby recant. It's now NOT clear that Hurd is the Next Great Thing. > > At this point I'd like to ask whether anyone can peer into a crystal > ball and see what the Next Great Thing might be. Rob Brockway has > referred in passing to Eros, Brazil, and Plan9 as interesting > operating systems. Do any of these have passionate backers? Is anyone > on the listserv keen to wade in and DEFEND Hurd? I do not see any of these being the Next Great Thing. - Eros is interesting, but its _proper_ use involves designing embedded systems atop it, things that aren't much "like Unix." And while it has the "Eric Raymond Seal Of Approval" on it, I haven't seen anything more than talk about it. - Brazil would be a proprietary Sun thing, and it is by no means evident that Sun will survive to make it more than a curiosity any more than they have had success creating useful "JavaOSes." - Plan 9 is a proprietary Bell Labs thing; while interesting things could be gleaned from it, and have (Alex Viro's filesystem namespaces patch, for instance), it has quite clearly failed in becoming of general interest. They dropped efforts on Plan 9 in favor of Inferno, which has considerable parallels to JavaOS and Brazil, but that, too, has pretty much fallen to being a curiosity. These systems are now all years old (save perhaps for Brazil), and none have the "spark of youth" that would be needed in order for a system to burst into flame so as to "take up the torch" as a successor. Hurd suffers from the problem of dependancy on pretty old hardware; these systems do too. The last time I looked at Plan 9, they _refused_ to try to support Adaptec SCSI adaptors, which meant I couldn't install it on the hardware I had then. This sort of fragmentary support for hardware is quite typical. The system I previously pointed at as a more plausible "successor" was Dragonfly BSD, which is mostly a spinoff of FreeBSD. I can't claim that is a perfectly natural successor, but it has _some_ merits that I would contend are necessary to a would-be contender: 1. It is a fresh project, attracting interest. 2. They have a strategy that permits moving much/all of the existing Unix software to run on it. Given LIBC, hierarchical filesystems, and an architecture that can be hoped to use to run XFree86, you can hope to run software from the FSF, GNOME, KDE, based notably on the wide array of stuff available in BSD Ports. 3. Unlike the other would-be successors, the intent is NOT to create something un-Unix-like. Hurd and Eros and Brazil are conspicuously steps _away_ from Unix. (Plan 9 isn't; it is intended as "more Unix-like than Unix...") I don't think that people will necessarily leap from Linux to Dragonfly BSD unless two things occur: 1. Linux kernel development stalls and/or goes wrong. There certainly have been challenges in the stability of the development process. - There's near-open-warfare over the use of proprietary SCM software (BitKeeper) which frequently leads to major flame wars. There are people who cannot contribute to the Linux kernel because they are also involved with writing competing SCM code. - Linux has jumped through about three sets of memory management code since 2.3, and it is not evident that the major surgery is anywhere near completed. - There were plans to completely revise the IDE code; that got rolled back for 2.6; they'll retry for 2.7. 2. The choice of distributions gets too painful. MandrakeSoft's filing for bankruptcy wasn't particularly good for that distribution. "Red Hat Linux" has had the triple challenge of: a) Too many bad "dot zero" releases that were so "bleeding edge" as to cause considerable bleeding; b) The increasingly-proprietary "upgrade network"; c) Now, they are dropping the former sequences in favor of having (pricey) RHAS/RHES that target stability alongside "Fedora Linux" that is likely to be, if anything, MORE bleeding edge than before. Debian has been having considerable pains in trying to release new "stable" releases. SuSE has gotten steadily more proprietary since about version 7. It is by no means implausible that challenges of availability of updates of all these sorts may lead people to look for something new. It _is_ a good thing to have the various *BSD systems around; they represent meaningful "escape routes" for some of the problems that are possible. (In addition, the mere _existence_ of "escape routes" discourages corporations that control Linux distributions from doing anything _too_ dramatically stupid. I have long argued that the existence of Debian, complete with 'constitution' and 'democratic process,' however imperfect, keeps away the reality the more paranoid fantasies people have had about Red Hat.) -- output = reverse("ac.notelrac.teneerf" "@" "454aa") http://www.ntlug.org/~cbbrowne/languages.html Signs of a Klingon Programmer - 3. "This machine is GAGH! I need dual Pentium processors if I am to do battle with this code!" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 2 01:05:07 2003 From: clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (CLIFFORD ILKAY) Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2003 20:05:07 -0500 Subject: "As for the GPL, it's total war." In-Reply-To: <20031101174147.GA4918-DPTsmTRGv3o@public.gmane.org> References: <1067580484.3755.27.camel@rincewind.discworld> <20031030055942.0ae0f1d3.joehill@sympatico.ca> <20031030132133.GB27628@pluto.bsdwebhosting.net> <1067580484.3755.27.camel@rincewind.discworld> <20031101174147.GA4918@m433> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20031101195505.0299df60@localhost> At 12:41 01/11/2003 -0500, Walter Dnes wrote: >On Fri, Oct 31, 2003 at 01:08:11AM -0500, Marcus Brubaker wrote > > > Honestly, the more I read about this case, the more I believe that > > SCO honestly doesn't expect to win. > > Here's my take on their strategy. They plan to win big by losing big. >This will take some explaining. SCO's benefactor, Microsoft, has an >absolutely crummy OS when it comes to security. They would love to use >all that secure OSS stuff out there to fix up Windows, but using it >would require MS to distribute their source code under the GPL. So how >does MS get rid of the GPL... simple, get IBM and SGI to defeat it in >court !!! [snip] MS does not need to defeat the GPL to use source code from a secure OS when they can just use BSD code without having to resort to any shenanigans. MS might want to defeat the GPL for other reasons but I don't think this is one of them. Regards, Clifford Ilkay Dinamis Corporation 3266 Yonge Street, Suite 1419 Toronto, Ontario Canada M4N 3P6 Tel: 416-410-3326 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 2 01:08:48 2003 From: clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (CLIFFORD ILKAY) Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2003 20:08:48 -0500 Subject: gui ueber alles In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20031101200829.029b4220@localhost> At 22:47 01/11/2003 +0200, Peter L. Peres wrote: >If the gui is everything and they don't care about anything else, then >they also don't care what car they drive as long as it's blue laquered and >has beige upholstery, right ? ;-) That sums it up for most:) Regards, Clifford Ilkay Dinamis Corporation 3266 Yonge Street, Suite 1419 Toronto, Ontario Canada M4N 3P6 Tel: 416-410-3326 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 2 01:43:00 2003 From: clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (CLIFFORD ILKAY) Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2003 20:43:00 -0500 Subject: IT Job creations... IT job losses? In-Reply-To: References: <5.2.0.9.0.20031101120236.02962588@localhost> <000d01c39e63$03c92290$24af9d18@alpha> <44593.216.138.194.32.1067562704.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> <20031031065348.4d3e2503.joehill@sympatico.ca> <200310310820.15079.fraser@wehave.net> <20031031083316.3278bcd7.joehill@sympatico.ca> <46123.216.138.194.32.1067623147.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> <5.2.0.9.0.20031101120236.02962588@localhost> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20031101203213.0335da40@localhost> At 21:38 01/11/2003 +0200, Peter L. Peres wrote: >On Sat, 1 Nov 2003, CLIFFORD ILKAY wrote: > > > responsive by pre loading many of the DLLs that Office uses when Windows is > > started so that when a user launches Excel, it just appears as opposed to > > grinding away for 22 seconds (I timed it) before the user sees a > > spreadsheet. Koffice looks promising because it is tightly integrated with > >Small nitpick: OO is written in Java afaik, and most of the time is spent >by the Java hulk stepping out of its package(s). If OO would be written in >C++ and statically linked (shudder) it should come up at about disk speed, >assuming the right optimizations are used, just like Excel on M$. > > > So, is Linux ready for the desktop? My answer is "It depends." For the > > average user who just types letters, uses e-mail, uses a browser, and maybe > > uses spreadsheets, using decent hardware, sure. We have replaced green > > screen terminals, and Windows and Mac OS desktops with Linux desktops and > > no one has gone back but, we have been careful to not oversell Linux. > >So who is the average user who is not so average and what apps does he >need that requires M$ ? I have a client who uses some very sophisticated (and expensive ~ $80,000/seat) CAD/CAM software that has little chance of ever running on Windows. Though he would love to run Linux, it would be crazy for him to do that because it would effectively kill his business. Yes, Linux is great and can leap over tall buildings and all that but, the biggest disservice we can do to Linux is to claim that it is suitable for all situations and users. If an organization has vertical market software that runs only on Windows or Mac OS, it is unlikely that the organization is going to ditch Windows or Mac OS in favour of Linux. Our success in replacing Windows and Mac OS desktops has been in areas where the users do a very limited number of tasks, typically clerical, and the users do not know Windows or Mac OS particularly well either. If they are a little familiar with Windows or Mac OS, I have found it to be more difficult to gain their acceptance of Linux. Regards, Clifford Ilkay Dinamis Corporation 3266 Yonge Street, Suite 1419 Toronto, Ontario Canada M4N 3P6 Tel: 416-410-3326 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 2 01:43:37 2003 From: clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (CLIFFORD ILKAY) Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2003 20:43:37 -0500 Subject: IT Job creations... IT job losses? In-Reply-To: <20031101134833.50ea51bb.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <5.2.0.9.0.20031101120236.02962588@localhost> <000d01c39e63$03c92290$24af9d18@alpha> <44593.216.138.194.32.1067562704.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> <20031031065348.4d3e2503.joehill@sympatico.ca> <200310310820.15079.fraser@wehave.net> <20031031083316.3278bcd7.joehill@sympatico.ca> <46123.216.138.194.32.1067623147.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> <5.2.0.9.0.20031101120236.02962588@localhost> <20031101134833.50ea51bb.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20031101202541.03355ac8@localhost> At 13:48 01/11/2003 -0500, JoeHill wrote: >On Sat, 01 Nov 2003 12:40:56 -0500 >CLIFFORD ILKAY uttered: > > > Trying to sell them on XFCE I think is a lost cause. CDE and all > > those other user interfaces never gained wide acceptance for a good > > reason. They were, and still are, ugly user interfaces that only geeks > > and zealots could love. > >WTF?! Have you even *looked* at XFCE4?! LOL! It's better looking and has >all the functionality and user friendliness of KDE or Gnome, without all >the bloat. It's just as easy to configure as KDE, comes with all kinds >of goodies like it's own file manager, taskbar and panel that allow the >user to easily add menu's, applets, and program launchers, has it's own >plugins for system tray, shite man, I could go on forever... I wrote: "ugly user interfaces that only geeks and zealots could love." I rest my case:) >Best of all, thanks to the efforts of many in the Linux community, it is >*very* easy to install with RPM or Debian packages contributed by it's >fans. Again, I rest my case. Non technical, i.e. average users, do not care that it is easy to install because they expect to have a GUI when they turn their computer on. They do not know or care about the differences between window managers and desktop managers. They do not want five choices of GUIs. They want one and that one had better look pretty. >I would *easily* recommend XFCE4 over KDE or Gnome any day, for newbs >*or* experienced users. You might get away with that for someone who has never touched a computer before and therefore is not aware of the eye candy that is available on Windows and Mac OS. For someone that has worked with the alternatives, it is a tough sell. Regards, Clifford Ilkay Dinamis Corporation 3266 Yonge Street, Suite 1419 Toronto, Ontario Canada M4N 3P6 Tel: 416-410-3326 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 2 05:09:49 2003 From: davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org) Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2003 21:09:49 -0800 Subject: hero2zeroW In-Reply-To: <1067696979.16362.54.camel-VXIkh0TWzyg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FA289B7.3040306@sympatico.ca> <1067621811.16362.11.camel@yoda> <3FA28F94.50609@sympatico.ca> <1067625026.16363.21.camel@yoda> <3FA2ADD0.7020105@sympatico.ca> <1067626954.16363.43.camel@yoda> <20031101025117.49df6be4.davidjpatrick@sympatico.ca> <1067696979.16362.54.camel@yoda> Message-ID: <20031101210949.7aeba40f.davidjpatrick@sympatico.ca> On 01 Nov 2003 09:29:39 -0500 Kareem Shehata wrote: > On Sat, 2003-11-01 at 05:51, david j patrick wrote: > > hero2zero > > I'm not aware of that command, where can I find the .deb? > > > When we last tuned in, our hero was banishing multiple conflicts with a single stroke! > > Conflicts resolved, he swore that his system would never again be fraught with unmet dependancies and apt-get dist-upgraded to a keen edge .. can you see this coming ? > > > > apt-get dist-upgrade went off smoothly, and the root prompt surfaced without an error as I flew out the door. > > On return I reboot and guess what ? > > no alsa > > no ethernet card found > > no ADSL, no net > > pppoeconf looks strangely less helpfull and basically the box is off line ! > > I haven't actually dont a dist-upgrade myself yet, but these things > should be there unless it installed a new kernel for you. What kind of > network card do you have? Have you tried modprobe on the NIC module and > alsa modules? I have a feeling they may be there, just not being loaded > by the new startup scripts. > > > I'm sending you this SOS after booting a damnsmalllinux4-4.10 iso, running PPPoEconf, installing firebird, firing up ,and configuring, sylpheed and NOW I gotta hit the sack, cause I'm working tomorrow ! > > > > ya still got a brewskie comin your way.. > > and I was _just_ lookin' at mondo.. > > thank god (or Klaus Knopper) for bootable linux ! > > Always keep a bootable distro or three around just in case. > > Kareem > You got that right ! Seems things are uglier than I had first feared No ethernet (no sympatico), no alsa (or other working sound system), no _serial_ port (no palm sync) module errors on start and shutdown .. I'll be more specific in following post(s) In the mean time I have vital data freshly backed up, and access to most everything here in boot linux.. but all them happily humming apps .. sheeit ! Maybe this is a golden opportunity to install 2.6 .. kernel compile virgin, that I am .. crazy ? djp -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From marc-bbkyySd1vPWsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 2 03:09:30 2003 From: marc-bbkyySd1vPWsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Marc Lijour (Professeur d'Informatique)) Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2003 22:09:30 -0500 Subject: OpenOffice.org Performance In-Reply-To: <20031101224843.789094092-xzRQuAxiFLNWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org> References: <20031101224843.789094092@cbbrowne.com> Message-ID: <200311012209.30879.marc@lijour.net> Le 1 Novembre 2003 17:48, cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org a ?crit : > > Small nitpick: OO is written in Java afaik, and most of the time is spent > > by the Java hulk stepping out of its package(s). If OO would be written > > in C++ and statically linked (shudder) it should come up at about disk > > speed, assuming the right optimizations are used, just like Excel on M$. Thanksfully OOo is getting better and faster with this new release (OOo-1.1 and StarOffice 7). > WRONG. > > OpenOffice.org depends on: > a) libc6 (meaning some of it is in C) > b) libstdc++ (meaning some of it is in C++) > > There are NO inherent dependancies on Java, except in certain > extensions. > > OpenOffice.org IS written in C++. > > If the issues with its performance have to do with the language that it > is implemented in, then it is C++ that is to blame, not Java. > > Reimplementing things in C++ is _NOT_ a universal panacea; the fact that > it imposes considerable complexity of managing memory allocation and > deallocation on programmers makes it quite easy for a move to C++ to > worsen problems rather than to make them better. > > My installations of OpenOffice.org contain none of the Java components, > and are certainly not affected by inefficiencies of that nature. > > OO _is_ quite slow, and the only language that can be pointed at for > blame for that is C++. > -- > wm(X,Y):-write(X),write('@'),write(Y). wm('cbbrowne','ntlug.org'). > http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/finances.html > Health is merely the slowest possible rate at which one can die. > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From verbum-qazKcTl6WRFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 2 03:31:52 2003 From: verbum-qazKcTl6WRFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Toomas Karmo) Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2003 22:31:52 -0500 Subject: thx, Christopher, for Plan9, Brazil, etc briefing Message-ID: <20031102033152.GA3007@interlog.com> Thanks, Christopher (http://www.ntlug.org/~cbbrowne/languages.html), for a very thorough briefing on Plan9, Brazil, etc! I may pass you listserv posting on to some friends outside TLUG in the next few days. Rapidly, Tom = Tom Karmo http://www.metascientia.com -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From teddymills-VFlxZYho3OA at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 2 03:56:52 2003 From: teddymills-VFlxZYho3OA at public.gmane.org (Teddy Mills) Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2003 22:56:52 -0500 Subject: Goldilocks and the 3 bears References: <001201c3a007$e6aa94e0$0a01a8c0@viper> <20031101121126.551a5f8c.hgibson@eol.ca> Message-ID: <001f01c3a0f5$5a60f080$0301a8c0@amazon> I went with the 4th bowl of porridge... I installed it on a computer that did not recognize it as a 80GB. (saw it as a 14GB IDE) Then I installed the OS, and voila, works fine. I should have done this like 3 months ago! "Do, or do not , there is no try" Yoda ----- Original Message ----- From: "Howard Gibson" To: Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2003 12:11 PM Subject: Re: [TLUG]: Goldilocks and the 3 bears > On Fri, 31 Oct 2003 18:37:07 -0500 > "Teddy Mills" wrote: > > > > > I still got that 80GB that I cannot use because the BIOS cannot understand > > it. > > > > So theres three bowls of porridge..... > > > > 1) sell the drive > > 2) find a computer that will understand the 80GB > > 3) find an PCI-IDE controller that will undertstand the 80GB > > > > As for option 3, is that a valid option? I mean the computer/bios wont > > understand the drive, but the IDE controller will? > > Teddy, > > I had that problem too. Get a Promise card. > > -- > Howard Gibson > hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org > howard-42qnO8ePF9cV+D8aMU/kSg at public.gmane.org > http://home.eol.ca/~hgibson > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From kareem-d+8TeBu5bOew5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 2 04:30:15 2003 From: kareem-d+8TeBu5bOew5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org (Kareem Shehata) Date: 01 Nov 2003 23:30:15 -0500 Subject: hero2zeroW In-Reply-To: <20031101210949.7aeba40f.davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FA289B7.3040306@sympatico.ca> <1067621811.16362.11.camel@yoda> <3FA28F94.50609@sympatico.ca> <1067625026.16363.21.camel@yoda> <3FA2ADD0.7020105@sympatico.ca> <1067626954.16363.43.camel@yoda> <20031101025117.49df6be4.davidjpatrick@sympatico.ca> <1067696979.16362.54.camel@yoda> <20031101210949.7aeba40f.davidjpatrick@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <1067747415.16363.75.camel@yoda> On Sun, 2003-11-02 at 00:09, davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org wrote: > You got that right ! > Seems things are uglier than I had first feared > No ethernet (no sympatico), no alsa (or other working sound system), no _serial_ port (no palm sync) > module errors on start and shutdown .. I'll be more specific in following post(s) > In the mean time I have vital data freshly backed up, and access to most everything here in boot linux.. > but all them happily humming apps .. > sheeit ! Where did you dist-upgrade from? It's starting to sound like all of the nifty hardware auto-detection Knoppix is known for was blown out. Have you tried any of the modprobes? > Maybe this is a golden opportunity to install 2.6 .. kernel compile virgin, that I am .. > crazy ? I personally think it's a little soon to go to a 2.6 kernel, but I do strongly recommend compiling a custom kernel. Not only is it good exercise, I've found that it's one of the single biggest performance tweaks you can do. Kareem -- /********************************************************************* kareem-d+8TeBu5bOew5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org - Kareem Shehata - 416-676-6611 -------------------------------------------------------------------- The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposed ideas in the mind at the same time, and still retain the ability to function. -- F. Scott Fitzgerald (1896 - 1940) ********************************************************************/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lloyd-fEEwcc3XMu8jODpR/OX0VQ at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 2 04:49:32 2003 From: lloyd-fEEwcc3XMu8jODpR/OX0VQ at public.gmane.org (Lloyd D Budd) Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2003 23:49:32 -0500 Subject: Another (?) online magazine In-Reply-To: <1067729912.15156.9.camel-bi+AKbBUZKZeoWH0uzbU5w@public.gmane.org> References: <1067729912.15156.9.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <1067748572.15157.11.camel@localhost> On Sat, 2003-11-01 at 18:38, Lloyd D Budd wrote: > On Sat, 2003-11-01 at 15:18, Peter L. Peres wrote: > > but a good one (very on topic) and new to me: > > > > http://www.free-soft.org/FSM/english/issue03/ > > With 3 issues, and the most recent "monthly" issuing being from March > 2003 I do not know how "topical" it can be :-p Sorry, I meant March 2002. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 2 05:31:15 2003 From: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 00:31:15 -0500 (EST) Subject: after Linux, what? in place of Hurd, Eros, Brazil,...? In-Reply-To: <20031101235648.900AE4092-xzRQuAxiFLNWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org> References: <20031029214601.GB2221@interlog.com> <20031101235648.900AE4092@cbbrowne.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 1 Nov 2003 cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org wrote: > I do not see any of these being the Next Great Thing. I'm not sure I do either, but I expect some of their concepts to be in the Next Great Thing... > - Eros is interesting, but its _proper_ use involves designing embedded > systems atop it, things that aren't much "like Unix." And while it I have researched Eros a bit and I hadn't got this feeling at all. It seems (at least to me) that it is intended as a general purpose OS. > has the "Eric Raymond Seal Of Approval" on it, I haven't seen anything > more than talk about it. It can be downloaded but has to be considered beta AFAIK. They recommend anyone using it "be on the mailing list". That isn't bad advice for any OS of course :) > - Brazil would be a proprietary Sun thing, and it is by no means evident >From what I understood Brazil was based at Bell Labs like Plan9 (and UNIX before it). I found some doco to back this up: http://www.fe.up.pt/~jlopes/doc/plan9/faq.html#brazil http://www.blu.org/meetings/1998/07/description.html http://www.operating-system.org/betriebssystem/bs-plan9.htm Ok, that 3rd one isn't in English but the table at the bottom suggests that Plan9 v3 is codenamed Brazil, hmmm. I hadn't heard of Brazil being associated with Sun but if you can provide some links that'd be cool. > that Sun will survive to make it more than a curiosity any more than OT, but I'm pegging Sun to survive as a much smaller company than today. Might be acquired of course. > - Plan 9 is a proprietary Bell Labs thing; while interesting things Plan9 source is certainly available. How are you defining proprietary? After some time on the CLIC list I am very careful with this word :) The Plan9 licence is here: http://plan9.bell-labs.com/plan9dist/license.html I just skimmed it but it seemed pretty decent as an OSS licence to me. > could be gleaned from it, and have (Alex Viro's filesystem namespaces The distributed nature of it is interesting. > patch, for instance), it has quite clearly failed in becoming of > general interest. They dropped efforts on Plan 9 in favor of Inferno, I read last week (on a list for old hardware/software frequented by Dennis Ritchie) a request for support on the development of Plan9. So it's down but not out :) > which has considerable parallels to JavaOS and Brazil, but that, too, > has pretty much fallen to being a curiosity. I see these as experimental OSes. I believe that is how they were all conceived. If they don't make it big their ideas will (IMHO). > These systems are now all years old (save perhaps for Brazil), and none > have the "spark of youth" that would be needed in order for a system to I think I understand what you're saying but I'm not sure I see that as an essential requirement (although it may well be desirable). > suffers from the problem of dependancy on pretty old hardware; these > systems do too. The last time I looked at Plan 9, they _refused_ to try > to support Adaptec SCSI adaptors, which meant I couldn't install it on > the hardware I had then. This sort of fragmentary support for hardware > is quite typical. Judging by the comment I read last week (above) maybe their attitude has changed. > The system I previously pointed at as a more plausible "successor" was > Dragonfly BSD, which is mostly a spinoff of FreeBSD. I can't claim that I've heard of it but haven't investigated it. I'll certainly look into it. > Hurd and Eros and Brazil are conspicuously steps _away_ from Unix. > (Plan 9 isn't; it is intended as "more Unix-like than Unix...") In concept if not in implementation. I think some of the fundamental ideas of Plan9 are quite non-unix but the idea of it being an OS with few imposed constraints is certainly there. > 2. The choice of distributions gets too painful. I wouldn't be at all surprised if the number of core distributions drops in the next 5 years (while the user base continues to grow) although a few fringe distros will remain. > Debian has been having considerable pains in trying to release new > "stable" releases. On the one hand they do strive for stability in Stable releases. I do agree that the release cycle can be too slow. To a certain extent this is a necessary pre-requisite for the stability Debian enjoys. I know the Debian release manager personally (in person I mean) and I have tried to convey to him the feeling among many that the releases could afford to be quicker. I suspect many others have as well :) He has a big job and I respect him for the hard work he puts in. > It is by no means implausible that challenges of availability of updates > of all these sorts may lead people to look for something new. It _is_ a > good thing to have the various *BSD systems around; they represent Definately. > meaningful "escape routes" for some of the problems that are possible. Going a step further I don't like the artificial divide of having a Linux group and a BSD group. When I founded a free/home unix user group I made it version indendent for 2 reasons: 1) I have always seen this division as artificial. 2) I wanted the club to survive the demise of any given OS. > dramatically stupid. I have long argued that the existence of Debian, > complete with 'constitution' and 'democratic process,' however > imperfect, keeps away the reality the more paranoid fantasies people > have had about Red Hat.) Definately. I could envision a situation in which Debian ends up the vanguard of Linux simply because it is beyond being bought out. Cheers, Rob -- Robert Brockway B.Sc. email: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org, zzbrock at uqconnect.net Linux counter project ID #16440 (http://counter.li.org) "The earth is but one country and mankind its citizens" -Baha'u'llah -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 2 07:09:46 2003 From: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 02:09:46 -0500 (EST) Subject: after Linux, what? in place of Hurd, Eros, Brazil,...? In-Reply-To: <16292.43381.508491.454213-Uee0zfbLypPnBr0UOO5TDleTHsez0gnBsOSz5zK2v9k@public.gmane.org> References: <20031029214601.GB2221@interlog.com> <20031101235648.900AE4092@cbbrowne.com> <16292.43381.508491.454213@blue.mastcommunications.ca> Message-ID: On Sun, 2 Nov 2003, Marc Evelyn wrote: > Info. on Sun's "Brazil" is available at > > http://research.sun.com/brazil/ > > It's not an OS. Thanks for the Link Marc. Poor choice of name on Sun's part if you ask me :) Rob -- Robert Brockway B.Sc. email: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org, zzbrock at uqconnect.net Linux counter project ID #16440 (http://counter.li.org) "The earth is but one country and mankind its citizens" -Baha'u'llah -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 2 12:24:28 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 07:24:28 -0500 Subject: IT Job creations... IT job losses? In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20031101203213.0335da40-bi+AKbBUZKZeoWH0uzbU5w@public.gmane.org> References: <5.2.0.9.0.20031101120236.02962588@localhost> <000d01c39e63$03c92290$24af9d18@alpha> <44593.216.138.194.32.1067562704.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> <20031031065348.4d3e2503.joehill@sympatico.ca> <200310310820.15079.fraser@wehave.net> <20031031083316.3278bcd7.joehill@sympatico.ca> <46123.216.138.194.32.1067623147.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> <5.2.0.9.0.20031101120236.02962588@localhost> <5.2.0.9.0.20031101203213.0335da40@localhost> Message-ID: <20031102072428.0193064e.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Sat, 01 Nov 2003 20:43:00 -0500 CLIFFORD ILKAY uttered: > >So who is the average user who is not so average and what apps does > >he need that requires M$ ? > > I have a client who uses some very sophisticated (and expensive ~ > $80,000/seat) CAD/CAM software that has little chance of ever running > on Windows. Though he would love to run Linux, it would be crazy for > him to do that because it would effectively kill his business. Yes, > Linux is great and can leap over tall buildings and all that but, the > biggest disservice we can do to Linux is to claim that it is suitable > for all situations and users. ...but the biggest sevice we can do to Linux (or BSD, or Eros ;-)) is to break the monopoly, the stranglehold, that MS has on the desktop market, and thereby give developers a reason to port and/or code versions of said software for OS's other than Windows. That's why I am convinced more and more every day that there is an activist component to being an OSS advocate, or even just as a user. Linux users have shunned the political debate far too much, I think, believing that they are somehow above it, and this is wrong. We obviously cannot rely on the DOJ in the US to enforce it's own convictions of MS on illegal market manipulation, we cannot sit idly by and watch MS dodge this, if we expect *nix in general to become what I believe it is supposed to have been all along, the dominant model for computing everywhere, more advanced, more secure, more stable, and, dare I say it, more politically and economically egalitarian. Linux *can be* "suitable for all situations and users", but it's not going to happen overnight, and it's not going to happen without users taking an active and participatory role in the politcal discourse that so far has allowed MS to quietly carry on it's monopolistic game. -- JoeHill Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Do not seek death; death will find you. But seek the road which makes death a fulfillment. -- Dag Hammarskjold -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 2 12:39:06 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 07:39:06 -0500 Subject: IT Job creations... IT job losses? In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20031101202541.03355ac8-bi+AKbBUZKZeoWH0uzbU5w@public.gmane.org> References: <5.2.0.9.0.20031101120236.02962588@localhost> <000d01c39e63$03c92290$24af9d18@alpha> <44593.216.138.194.32.1067562704.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> <20031031065348.4d3e2503.joehill@sympatico.ca> <200310310820.15079.fraser@wehave.net> <20031031083316.3278bcd7.joehill@sympatico.ca> <46123.216.138.194.32.1067623147.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> <5.2.0.9.0.20031101120236.02962588@localhost> <5.2.0.9.0.20031101202541.03355ac8@localhost> Message-ID: <20031102073906.58765d88.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Sat, 01 Nov 2003 20:43:37 -0500 CLIFFORD ILKAY uttered: > I wrote: "ugly user interfaces that only geeks and zealots could > love." I rest my case:) XFCE4 is hardly ugly, suggesting, as I said, that you have in fact never even seen it. It comes with built-in GTK and WM theme choosers, just like KDE, with a myriad of slick and eye-catching combos. It makes Windows, at the very least, look pallid and pasty. Of course, no one will touch, for now, the slick interface of a Mac, but that's another story entirely. I find there is way too much of this "the average user is an idiot who just wants x to be y", as if we should just accept that an inferior and bloated OS has already pretty much won. I find the opposite. When I tell people who've been using Windows for *years* that with a tiny bit of effort, and some help from a geeky pal or a couple of mails to a list such as this, they will have a system that seemingly ressurects their supposedly out of date machine, and saves them the several hundred dollars to upgrade to XP, the reaction is overwhelmingly positive. -- JoeHill Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Happiness is just an illusion, filled with sadness and confusion. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 2 12:57:20 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 07:57:20 -0500 Subject: IT Job creations... IT job losses? In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20031101202541.03355ac8-bi+AKbBUZKZeoWH0uzbU5w@public.gmane.org> References: <5.2.0.9.0.20031101120236.02962588@localhost> <000d01c39e63$03c92290$24af9d18@alpha> <44593.216.138.194.32.1067562704.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> <20031031065348.4d3e2503.joehill@sympatico.ca> <200310310820.15079.fraser@wehave.net> <20031031083316.3278bcd7.joehill@sympatico.ca> <46123.216.138.194.32.1067623147.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> <5.2.0.9.0.20031101120236.02962588@localhost> <5.2.0.9.0.20031101202541.03355ac8@localhost> Message-ID: <20031102075720.310cc605.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Sat, 01 Nov 2003 20:43:37 -0500 CLIFFORD ILKAY uttered: > I wrote: "ugly user interfaces that only geeks and zealots could > love." I rest my case:) Here's a shot of that "ugly user interface": http://www.orderinchaos.org/xfce4.png I keep an install of XFCE4 around on my machine to show people who think Linux is "ugly" or "difficult". None of the setup involved in this shot would require anything more than what would be required in something like KDE or Gnome. Your case just got thrown out for lack of evidence ;-) -- JoeHill Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Nothing is but what is not. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 2 13:39:49 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 08:39:49 -0500 Subject: Good, Funny interview w/ the Man Message-ID: <20031102083949.33006bdf.joehill@sympatico.ca> Linus speaks on 2.6, desktop Linux, and of course, Tux. http://www.oetrends.com/news.php?action=view_record&idnum=277 -- JoeHill Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ I am not afraid of tomorrow, for I have seen yesterday and I love today. -- William Allen White -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 2 13:45:50 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 08:45:50 -0500 Subject: Another great firewall sol'n Message-ID: <20031102084550.6b8bf79c.joehill@sympatico.ca> And much more, built-in VPN functionality and it runs from CD! http://www.devil-linux.org/devil-linux-1.0-press-release.htm -- JoeHill Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Life is the living you do, Death is the living you don't do. -- Joseph Pintauro -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 2 14:29:15 2003 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2003 09:29:15 -0500 Subject: OpenOffice.org Performance In-Reply-To: <200311012209.30879.marc-bbkyySd1vPWsTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org> References: <20031101224843.789094092@cbbrowne.com> <200311012209.30879.marc@lijour.net> Message-ID: <3FA514BB.4020306@rogers.com> Marc Lijour (Professeur d'Informatique) wrote: > Le 1 Novembre 2003 17:48, cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org a ?crit : > >>>Small nitpick: OO is written in Java afaik, and most of the time is spent >>>by the Java hulk stepping out of its package(s). If OO would be written >>>in C++ and statically linked (shudder) it should come up at about disk >>>speed, assuming the right optimizations are used, just like Excel on M$. > > > Thanksfully OOo is getting better and faster with this new release (OOo-1.1 > and StarOffice 7). I recently installed OO0-1.1, and it's still slow loading. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 2 14:46:48 2003 From: fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Fraser Campbell) Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 09:46:48 -0500 Subject: IT Job creations... IT job losses? In-Reply-To: <20031102075720.310cc605.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <5.2.0.9.0.20031101120236.02962588@localhost> <5.2.0.9.0.20031101202541.03355ac8@localhost> <20031102075720.310cc605.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <200311020946.48532.fraser@wehave.net> On Sunday 02 November 2003 07:57, JoeHill wrote: > Here's a shot of that "ugly user interface": > > http://www.orderinchaos.org/xfce4.png The taskbar isn't ugly however the apps and window decorations are. Looks like they were designed by someone whose imagination stops at boxes. I suppose that's not the fault of XFCE though, I suppose it allows one to configure the window decorations? -- Fraser Campbell http://www.wehave.net/ Halton Hills, Ontario, Canada Debian GNU/Linux -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 2 15:12:57 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 10:12:57 -0500 Subject: IT Job creations... IT job losses? In-Reply-To: <200311020946.48532.fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org> References: <5.2.0.9.0.20031101120236.02962588@localhost> <5.2.0.9.0.20031101202541.03355ac8@localhost> <20031102075720.310cc605.joehill@sympatico.ca> <200311020946.48532.fraser@wehave.net> Message-ID: <20031102101257.06ffd30c.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Sun, 2 Nov 2003 09:46:48 -0500 Fraser Campbell uttered: > I suppose it allows one to configure the window decorations? Yep, there's about 20 different choices, that's just the default. Plus all the GTK theme choices which are all available through a simple config interface, certainly simpler and cleaner than the KDE theme interface. Even the default, tho, ya gotta admit it's prettier than Windows ;-) -- JoeHill Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ If you have to hate, hate gently. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 2 15:20:41 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 10:20:41 -0500 Subject: IT Job creations... IT job losses? In-Reply-To: <200311020946.48532.fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org> References: <5.2.0.9.0.20031101120236.02962588@localhost> <5.2.0.9.0.20031101202541.03355ac8@localhost> <20031102075720.310cc605.joehill@sympatico.ca> <200311020946.48532.fraser@wehave.net> Message-ID: <20031102102041.2a1acf6a.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Sun, 2 Nov 2003 09:46:48 -0500 Fraser Campbell uttered: > > The taskbar isn't ugly however the apps and window decorations are. > Looks like they were designed by someone whose imagination stops at > boxes. I suppose that's not the fault of XFCE though, I suppose it > allows one to configure the window decorations? I've updated the shot to show you what I'm talking about... -- JoeHill Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ And ever has it been known that love knows not its own depth until the hour of separation. -- Kahlil Gibran -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 2 19:07:42 2003 From: davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org) Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 11:07:42 -0800 Subject: hero2zeroW In-Reply-To: <1067747415.16363.75.camel-VXIkh0TWzyg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FA289B7.3040306@sympatico.ca> <1067621811.16362.11.camel@yoda> <3FA28F94.50609@sympatico.ca> <1067625026.16363.21.camel@yoda> <3FA2ADD0.7020105@sympatico.ca> <1067626954.16363.43.camel@yoda> <20031101025117.49df6be4.davidjpatrick@sympatico.ca> <1067696979.16362.54.camel@yoda> <20031101210949.7aeba40f.davidjpatrick@sympatico.ca> <1067747415.16363.75.camel@yoda> Message-ID: <20031102110742.53f99396.davidjpatrick@sympatico.ca> On 01 Nov 2003 23:30:15 -0500 Kareem Shehata wrote: > On Sun, 2003-11-02 at 00:09, davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org wrote: > > You got that right ! > > Seems things are uglier than I had first feared > > No ethernet (no sympatico), no alsa (or other working sound system), no _serial_ port (no palm sync) > > module errors on start and shutdown .. I'll be more specific in following post(s) > > In the mean time I have vital data freshly backed up, and access to most everything here in boot linux.. > > but all them happily humming apps .. > > sheeit ! > > Where did you dist-upgrade from? It's starting to sound like all of the > nifty hardware auto-detection Knoppix is known for was blown out. Have > you tried any of the modprobes? As far as I know, dist-upgrade comes from various sources in my /etc/apt/sources.list . It may have been the "apt-get remove knx-alsa" that sent the hardware detection south. In any case, I got NO peripherals, as far as that debian installation is concerned; latest no-show = CDR, at least the mouse and keyboard work .. I'm not sure how to "try a modprobe" but I am sure that I get a STACK of modprobe / module not found in (something/something) errors on shutdown. next time I'll write them down .. > > > Maybe this is a golden opportunity to install 2.6 .. kernel compile virgin, that I am .. > > crazy ? > > I personally think it's a little soon to go to a 2.6 kernel, but I do > strongly recommend compiling a custom kernel. Not only is it good > exercise, I've found that it's one of the single biggest performance > tweaks you can do. > > Kareem > Well, 2.6 seems to be in the later test versions .. and it's so _packed_ with new features .. Wwell 2.4.22 or 2.6, do you think I could do it _for_ the HD install , _from_ the BOOT install ? Or (more likely) d/l everything required (with bootlinux) and reboot (into bustedlinux) to recompile. and when (if) I ever get things working right (again) what systm-wide back-up utility would you recommend ; I've been considering Hdup .vs mondo thanks fer listening to my sadsad story, sniff, djp > -- > /********************************************************************* > kareem-d+8TeBu5bOew5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org - Kareem Shehata - 416-676-6611 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold > two opposed ideas in the mind at the same time, and still retain > the ability to function. > -- F. Scott Fitzgerald (1896 - 1940) > ********************************************************************/ > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 2 16:17:36 2003 From: fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Fraser Campbell) Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 11:17:36 -0500 Subject: IT Job creations... IT job losses? In-Reply-To: <20031102102041.2a1acf6a.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <5.2.0.9.0.20031101120236.02962588@localhost> <200311020946.48532.fraser@wehave.net> <20031102102041.2a1acf6a.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <200311021117.36280.fraser@wehave.net> On Sunday 02 November 2003 10:20, JoeHill wrote: > Fraser Campbell uttered: > > The taskbar isn't ugly however the apps and window decorations are. > > Looks like they were designed by someone whose imagination stops at > > boxes. I suppose that's not the fault of XFCE though, I suppose it > > allows one to configure the window decorations? > > I've updated the shot to show you what I'm talking about... Beauty and ugliness are subjective but what I see is a tonne of font issues ... - lower portions of fonts being cut off in most of the apps you have on screen - fonts being squished for no obvious reason * right portion of "a" missing in "Sans 10" (in theme preferences) * "o" letters are squished, v is broken (window manager preference tabs) * "Arial 10" missing right side of 0 (Title font in WM Preferences) In addition to the font issues, the lower border of the Title Font select box (WM Preferences) is missing, right border of Close button in XFCE Settings is missing. These things jump right out at me and look very amateurish. Now these issues are GTK issues I'd guess not XFCE. XFCE by itself looks fine to me (I did play with it a few months ago). I've been a Linux user for 11 years, AFAIK I don't prefer windows style interfaces (I detest Windows and get knots in my stomach from using it). KDE has very nice icon collections, I like the default Window behaviour, the Keramik theme, etc. I do very little tweaking and am very happy with KDE. I am not into all the whiz-bang features that do nothing other than suck up my CPU (transparency, fading, ???). KDE is definitely a lot more bloated than XFCE but on sufficient hardware my opinion is that it is much better than any of the other desktop environments and the integration of KDE apps is very useful. My only fear with KDE is that the level of integration might lead to Windows style worms and security problems. -- Fraser Campbell http://www.wehave.net/ Halton Hills, Ontario, Canada Debian GNU/Linux -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From scruss-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 2 16:21:13 2003 From: scruss-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (Stewart C. Russell) Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2003 11:21:13 -0500 Subject: IT Job creations... IT job losses? In-Reply-To: <20031102073906.58765d88.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <5.2.0.9.0.20031101120236.02962588@localhost> <000d01c39e63$03c92290$24af9d18@alpha> <44593.216.138.194.32.1067562704.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> <20031031065348.4d3e2503.joehill@sympatico.ca> <200310310820.15079.fraser@wehave.net> <20031031083316.3278bcd7.joehill@sympatico.ca> <46123.216.138.194.32.1067623147.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> <5.2.0.9.0.20031101120236.02962588@localhost> <5.2.0.9.0.20031101202541.03355ac8@localhost> <20031102073906.58765d88.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <3FA52EF9.7010302@sympatico.ca> JoeHill wrote: > > XFCE4 is hardly ugly, suggesting, as I said, that you have in fact never > even seen it. the screenshots on the project's website make it look like a cross between Sun OpenWindows and CDE. Stewart -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From scruss-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 2 16:29:29 2003 From: scruss-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (Stewart C. Russell) Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2003 11:29:29 -0500 Subject: after Linux, what? in place of Hurd, Eros, Brazil,...? In-Reply-To: References: <20031029214601.GB2221@interlog.com> <20031101235648.900AE4092@cbbrowne.com> Message-ID: <3FA530E9.40108@sympatico.ca> Robert Brockway wrote: > > 2) I wanted the club to survive the demise of any given OS. If you're wanting for humour, pop down to a UnixUnanimous () meeting, and mention you Linux, and worse still, Perl. Then run ... > Definately. I could envision a situation in which Debian ends up the > vanguard of Linux simply because it is beyond being bought out. Aren't the aims of Gentoo similar? (a Gentoo user asks) Stewart -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 2 16:32:12 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 11:32:12 -0500 Subject: IT Job creations... IT job losses? In-Reply-To: <200311021117.36280.fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org> References: <5.2.0.9.0.20031101120236.02962588@localhost> <200311020946.48532.fraser@wehave.net> <20031102102041.2a1acf6a.joehill@sympatico.ca> <200311021117.36280.fraser@wehave.net> Message-ID: <20031102113212.3698bd11.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Sun, 2 Nov 2003 11:17:36 -0500 Fraser Campbell uttered: > Beauty and ugliness are subjective but what I see is a tonne of font > issues ... > > - lower portions of fonts being cut off in most of the apps you have > on screen- fonts being squished for no obvious reason > * right portion of "a" missing in "Sans 10" (in theme preferences) > * "o" letters are squished, v is broken (window manager preference > tabs)* "Arial 10" missing right side of 0 (Title font in WM > Preferences) > > In addition to the font issues, the lower border of the Title Font > select box (WM Preferences) is missing, right border of Close button > in XFCE Settings is missing. what resolution are you viewing this at? I think your browser may be compressing/resizing the image, it should be 1280 x 960. I don't see any of the things you point out at all, the fonts look crisp, complete, and clean. -- JoeHill Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ The moss on the tree does not fear the talons of the hawk. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From anton-F0u+EriZ6ihBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 2 16:44:48 2003 From: anton-F0u+EriZ6ihBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Anton Markov) Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2003 11:44:48 -0500 Subject: IT Job creations... IT job losses? In-Reply-To: <20031102075720.310cc605.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <5.2.0.9.0.20031101120236.02962588@localhost> <000d01c39e63$03c92290$24af9d18@alpha> <44593.216.138.194.32.1067562704.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> <20031031065348.4d3e2503.joehill@sympatico.ca> <200310310820.15079.fraser@wehave.net> <20031031083316.3278bcd7.joehill@sympatico.ca> <46123.216.138.194.32.1067623147.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> <5.2.0.9.0.20031101120236.02962588@localhost> <5.2.0.9.0.20031101202541.03355ac8@localhost> <20031102075720.310cc605.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <3FA53480.2050508@truxtar.com> Have you seen the predictions and screen shots of WinFX in Longhorn? Have you ever tried Windows Blinds? DesktopX? Have you heard of truly scalable windows that are created out of 3D meshes, and the whole desktop is rendered in Direct3D? Can you imagine the ability to "fly" around the desktop? In the area of window managers and *looks*, Windows wins 10:1 For more Unfortunately for Linux, there will always be people who like their computer to actually *look* good rather than work well. After all, what does the average user need 2GHz+ of power for? I think that in the end, MS, Mac and Linux will simply fill their own market niches: Linux -> Servers, diskless workstations, software developers, lite users (web, e-mail, OOffice) Mac -> Graphic/video designers MS -> Average (business) users and gamers JoeHill wrote: >On Sat, 01 Nov 2003 20:43:37 -0500 >CLIFFORD ILKAY uttered: > > > >>I wrote: "ugly user interfaces that only geeks and zealots could >>love." I rest my case:) >> >> > >Here's a shot of that "ugly user interface": > >http://www.orderinchaos.org/xfce4.png > >I keep an install of XFCE4 around on my machine to show people who think >Linux is "ugly" or "difficult". None of the setup involved in this shot >would require anything more than what would be required in something >like KDE or Gnome. > >Your case just got thrown out for lack of evidence ;-) > > > -- Anton -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From sidney-3Kd7Tu4o6f/sBN0MCq728g at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 2 16:47:34 2003 From: sidney-3Kd7Tu4o6f/sBN0MCq728g at public.gmane.org (Sidney Shapiro) Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 11:47:34 -0500 Subject: Cogeco In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <009601c3a161$07553470$6401a8c0@main> > Shame, shame, recommending a proprietary (and overpriced) Nortel product > on a Linux list. Asterisk (www.asterisk.org) runs on Linux. > For a US$65 SIP phone, check out FWD. http://www.freeworlddialup.com/ > > -Ralph Ralph, It appears one can not make regular phone calls with FWD, only PC to PC calls. I have seen VOip setups which connect to a PBX box in quite a few offices which allow you to make calls over the internet. Sid -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From ralph-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 2 17:42:42 2003 From: ralph-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ralph Doncaster) Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 12:42:42 -0500 (EST) Subject: VoIP (was Cogeco) In-Reply-To: <009601c3a161$07553470$6401a8c0-UxDKcUsq0RM@public.gmane.org> References: <009601c3a161$07553470$6401a8c0@main> Message-ID: On Sun, 2 Nov 2003, Sidney Shapiro wrote: > > Shame, shame, recommending a proprietary (and overpriced) Nortel > product > > on a Linux list. Asterisk (www.asterisk.org) runs on Linux. > > For a US$65 SIP phone, check out FWD. http://www.freeworlddialup.com/ > > > > -Ralph > > Ralph, > > It appears one can not make regular phone calls with FWD, only PC to PC > calls. I have seen VOip setups which connect to a PBX box in quite a few > offices which allow you to make calls over the internet. I never said FWD offers a free SIP to PSTN gateway, though if you look cosely at the site you'll see there is a free PSTN gateway for calling toll-free numbers. And if you want a PBX that can act as a VoIP gatway, that's exactly why I mentioned Asterisk. -Ralph -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jzygmont-tEQKYFGiemxAYG7eUwYNkWD2FQJk+8+b at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 2 18:28:13 2003 From: jzygmont-tEQKYFGiemxAYG7eUwYNkWD2FQJk+8+b at public.gmane.org (Justin Zygmont) Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 13:28:13 -0500 (EST) Subject: Another great firewall sol'n In-Reply-To: <20031102084550.6b8bf79c.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <20031102084550.6b8bf79c.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: I also just installed vector linux just to have a look, and it included XFCE. It's kind of nice, I guess it's inspiration came from slackware 9. I was suprised to see that it actually came with portsentry, a program I thought was gone for a while now, I guess it's an old copy. Forgot to see what style of init was used, but the full install was only 660MB. I never really knew how many less common distros there were out there. On Sun, 2 Nov 2003, JoeHill wrote: > > And much more, built-in VPN functionality and it runs from CD! > > http://www.devil-linux.org/devil-linux-1.0-press-release.htm > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jzygmont-tEQKYFGiemxAYG7eUwYNkWD2FQJk+8+b at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 2 18:46:02 2003 From: jzygmont-tEQKYFGiemxAYG7eUwYNkWD2FQJk+8+b at public.gmane.org (Justin Zygmont) Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 13:46:02 -0500 (EST) Subject: IT Job creations... IT job losses? In-Reply-To: <3FA52EF9.7010302-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FA52EF9.7010302@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: I wonder what you'd think of this one, it's older than xfce 4. http://solarflow.dyndns.org/wabi/rare.gif On Sun, 2 Nov 2003, Stewart C. Russell wrote: > JoeHill wrote: > > > > XFCE4 is hardly ugly, suggesting, as I said, that you have in fact never > > even seen it. > > the screenshots on the project's website make it look like a cross > between Sun OpenWindows and CDE. > > Stewart > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From kru_tch-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 2 19:34:01 2003 From: kru_tch-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (Stephen Allen) Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2003 14:34:01 -0500 Subject: Sympatico's at it again? In-Reply-To: <3FA04BBA.2040108-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <3.0.3.32.20031029110310.010186f4@mail.look.ca> <3FA008E5.50503@yahoo.ca> <3FA04BBA.2040108@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <3FA55C29.4080501@yahoo.ca> John Moniz wrote: > Stephen Allen wrote: >> It's not just Sympatico, I've been getting messages from back in >> August this morning. >> > Maybe we should be worried about what ss.org is doing. Perhaps, I'm on a little over a dozen lists, and TLUG is the only one re-sending old mail. -- Best Regards, Steve -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 2 20:10:25 2003 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter L. Peres) Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 22:10:25 +0200 (IST) Subject: gui ueber alles In-Reply-To: <1067724559.16362.71.camel-VXIkh0TWzyg@public.gmane.org> References: <1067724559.16362.71.camel@yoda> Message-ID: > On Sat, 2003-11-01 at 15:47, Peter L. Peres wrote: > > If the gui is everything and they don't care about anything else, then > they also don't care what car they drive as long as it's blue laquered > and has beige upholstery, right ? ;-) BUT since we now know that they only care about the color and the upholstery WHY do users still mumble that brand name ?! What is the hypnotic force that keeps them glued to it. Marketing ? Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 2 20:16:22 2003 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter L. Peres) Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 22:16:22 +0200 (IST) Subject: Another (?) online magazine In-Reply-To: <1067729912.15156.9.camel-bi+AKbBUZKZeoWH0uzbU5w@public.gmane.org> References: <1067729912.15156.9.camel@localhost> Message-ID: On Sat, 1 Nov 2003, Lloyd D Budd wrote: > On Sat, 2003-11-01 at 15:18, Peter L. Peres wrote: > > but a good one (very on topic) and new to me: > > > > http://www.free-soft.org/FSM/english/issue03/ > > With 3 issues, and the most recent "monthly" issuing being from March > 2003 I do not know how "topical" it can be :-p There is an article about IP and how it was handled (the article about Electric). It sort of anticipated the current problem and might point to another possible solution (at least a tried one). Of course that is his version, there was probably some gnashing of teeth at one time or another when code was handed back to him. Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 2 20:14:22 2003 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter L. Peres) Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 22:14:22 +0200 (IST) Subject: OpenOffice.org Performance In-Reply-To: <20031101224843.789094092-xzRQuAxiFLNWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org> References: <000d01c39e63$03c92290$24af9d18@alpha> <44593.216.138.194.32.1067562704.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> <20031031065348.4d3e2503.joehill@sympatico.ca> <200310310820.15079.fraser@wehave.net> <20031031083316.3278bcd7.joehill@sympatico.ca> <46123.216.138.194.32.1067623147.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> <5.2.0.9.0.20031101120236.02962588@localhost> <20031101224843.789094092@cbbrowne.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 1 Nov 2003, cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org wrote: > OO _is_ quite slow, and the only language that can be pointed at for > blame for that is C++. Okay. > wm(X,Y):-write(X),write('@'),write(Y). wm('cbbrowne','ntlug.org'). Do you happen to know where I could get some info on DAG and parser implementation syntax using SWI Prolog ? Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 2 20:21:21 2003 From: cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org (cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org) Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2003 15:21:21 -0500 Subject: Sympatico's at it again? In-Reply-To: Message from Stephen Allen of "Sun, 02 Nov 2003 14:34:01 EST." <3FA55C29.4080501-FFYn/CNdgSA@public.gmane.org> References: <3.0.3.32.20031029110310.010186f4@mail.look.ca> <3FA008E5.50503@yahoo.ca> <3FA04BBA.2040108@sympatico.ca> <3FA55C29.4080501@yahoo.ca> Message-ID: <20031102202122.C1ADF44BB@cbbrowne.com> > John Moniz wrote: > > > Stephen Allen wrote: > > >> It's not just Sympatico, I've been getting messages from back in > >> August this morning. > >> > > Maybe we should be worried about what ss.org is doing. > > Perhaps, I'm on a little over a dozen lists, and TLUG is the only one re-sending > old mail. I wouldn't be certain it was "re-sending." It is equally possible that Sympatico had a bunch of messages bottled up somewhere, perhaps as a result of the combination of: a) Vast quantities of spam hitting them, and b) The time during which ss.org's DNS records were messed up. -- output = reverse("gro.mca" "@" "enworbbc") http://cbbrowne.com/info/wp.html Signs of a Klingon Programmer #3: "By filing this TPR you have challenged the honor of my family. Prepare to die!" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 2 20:30:03 2003 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter L. Peres) Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 22:30:03 +0200 (IST) Subject: IT Job creations... IT job losses? In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20031101203213.0335da40-bi+AKbBUZKZeoWH0uzbU5w@public.gmane.org> References: <5.2.0.9.0.20031101120236.02962588@localhost> <000d01c39e63$03c92290$24af9d18@alpha> <44593.216.138.194.32.1067562704.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> <20031031065348.4d3e2503.joehill@sympatico.ca> <200310310820.15079.fraser@wehave.net> <20031031083316.3278bcd7.joehill@sympatico.ca> <46123.216.138.194.32.1067623147.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> <5.2.0.9.0.20031101120236.02962588@localhost> <5.2.0.9.0.20031101203213.0335da40@localhost> Message-ID: On Sat, 1 Nov 2003, CLIFFORD ILKAY wrote: > >So who is the average user who is not so average and what apps does he > >need that requires M$ ? > > I have a client who uses some very sophisticated (and expensive ~ > $80,000/seat) CAD/CAM software that has little chance of ever running on > Windows. Though he would love to run Linux, it would be crazy for him to do > that because it would effectively kill his business. Yes, Linux is great > and can leap over tall buildings and all that but, the biggest disservice > we can do to Linux is to claim that it is suitable for all situations and > users. If an organization has vertical market software that runs only on > Windows or Mac OS, it is unlikely that the organization is going to ditch > Windows or Mac OS in favour of Linux. Our success in replacing Windows and > Mac OS desktops has been in areas where the users do a very limited number > of tasks, typically clerical, and the users do not know Windows or Mac OS > particularly well either. If they are a little familiar with Windows or Mac > OS, I have found it to be more difficult to gain their acceptance of Linux. That makes perfect sense, thanks. Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From kru_tch-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 2 20:36:13 2003 From: kru_tch-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (Stephen Allen) Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2003 15:36:13 -0500 Subject: Sympatico's at it again? In-Reply-To: <20031102202122.C1ADF44BB-xzRQuAxiFLNWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org> References: <3.0.3.32.20031029110310.010186f4@mail.look.ca> <3FA008E5.50503@yahoo.ca> <3FA04BBA.2040108@sympatico.ca> <3FA55C29.4080501@yahoo.ca> <20031102202122.C1ADF44BB@cbbrowne.com> Message-ID: <3FA56ABD.9040200@yahoo.ca> cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org wrote: >>John Moniz wrote: >> >> >>>Stephen Allen wrote: >> >>>>It's not just Sympatico, I've been getting messages from back in >>>>August this morning. >>>> >>> >>>Maybe we should be worried about what ss.org is doing. >> >>Perhaps, I'm on a little over a dozen lists, and TLUG is the only one re-sending >>old mail. > > > I wouldn't be certain it was "re-sending." > > It is equally possible that Sympatico had a bunch of messages bottled up > somewhere, perhaps as a result of the combination of: > a) Vast quantities of spam hitting them, and > b) The time during which ss.org's DNS records were messed up. Possibly, but the only issue is that I'm not on Sympatico. :) If your scenario is true, then Yahoo is having a hiccup at the same time as Sympatico, unlikely. -- Best Regards, Steve -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 2 20:55:21 2003 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 15:55:21 -0500 Subject: OpenOffice.org Performance In-Reply-To: <20031101224843.789094092-xzRQuAxiFLNWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org> References: <000d01c39e63$03c92290$24af9d18@alpha> <44593.216.138.194.32.1067562704.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> <20031031065348.4d3e2503.joehill@sympatico.ca> <200310310820.15079.fraser@wehave.net> <20031031083316.3278bcd7.joehill@sympatico.ca> <46123.216.138.194.32.1067623147.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> <5.2.0.9.0.20031101120236.02962588@localhost> <20031101224843.789094092@cbbrowne.com> Message-ID: <20031102205521.GA6244@m433> On Sat, Nov 01, 2003 at 05:48:42PM -0500, cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org wrote > My installations of OpenOffice.org contain none of the Java > components, and are certainly not affected by inefficiencies of > that nature. > > OO _is_ quite slow, and the only language that can be pointed at > for blame for that is C++. The all-in-one packages have been mediocre since the days of Framework and Symphony. AbiWord and Gnumeric rock. BTW, I *INSTALL* GNOME and KDE but I *RUN* FVWM2. The GNOME panel runs just fine under FVWM2. To summarize... I don't run desktops, I run applications. -- Walter Dnes Email users are divided into two classes; 1) Those who have effective spam-blocking 2) Those who wish they did -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From marc-bbkyySd1vPWsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 2 21:07:48 2003 From: marc-bbkyySd1vPWsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Marc Lijour (Professeur d'Informatique)) Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 16:07:48 -0500 Subject: OpenOffice.org Performance In-Reply-To: <3FA514BB.4020306-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <200311012209.30879.marc@lijour.net> <3FA514BB.4020306@rogers.com> Message-ID: <200311021607.48577.marc@lijour.net> Le 2 Novembre 2003 09:29, James Knott a ?crit : > Marc Lijour (Professeur d'Informatique) wrote: > > Le 1 Novembre 2003 17:48, cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org a ?crit : > >>>Small nitpick: OO is written in Java afaik, and most of the time is > >>> spent by the Java hulk stepping out of its package(s). If OO would be > >>> written in C++ and statically linked (shudder) it should come up at > >>> about disk speed, assuming the right optimizations are used, just like > >>> Excel on M$. > > > > Thanksfully OOo is getting better and faster with this new release > > (OOo-1.1 and StarOffice 7). > > I recently installed OO0-1.1, and it's still slow loading. Yes, loading is slow. (As is MS office) > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 2 21:48:12 2003 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 16:48:12 -0500 Subject: IT Job creations... IT job losses? In-Reply-To: <46237.216.138.194.32.1067624431.squirrel-16UnNR4aCrhlws70yGkXPA@public.gmane.org> References: <20031031065348.4d3e2503.joehill@sympatico.ca> <46237.216.138.194.32.1067624431.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> Message-ID: <20031102214812.GB6244@m433> On Fri, Oct 31, 2003 at 01:20:31PM -0500, Keith Mastin wrote > Like a certain smp kernel upgrade did earlier this year... [...deletia...] > ssl upgrade a few months back... [...deletia...] > You haven't been caught in upgrade hell? Upgrades can be put off, unless you want to run an app the *DEMANDS* that other software be upgraded. With Windows, it's a boatload of *SECURITY FIXES* that *MUST* be applied *IMMEDIATELY* to protect your system from being compromised. You do not have the luxury of waiting and watching mailing lists for reports from "pioneers" (i.e. the guys with the arrows in their backs). Redhat's 7.3 was probably the best release they ever had. Unfortunately, the Microsoft Marketing Mentality is taking hold in Redhat. The webpage http://www.redhat.com/apps/support/errata/ indicates that support is being dropped for the following products... Red Hat Linux 9 (Shrike) April 30, 2004 Red Hat Linux 8.0 (Psyche) December 31, 2003 Red Hat Linux 7.3 (Valhalla) December 31, 2003 Red Hat Linux 7.2 (Enigma) December 31, 2003 Red Hat Linux 7.1 (Seawolf) December 31, 2003 Yes, I'm a computer hobbyist, but I also want to *USE* my computer, rather than spend my time upgrading, upgrading, upgrading to version-du-jour. I wouldn't mind paying $5/month if it could keep my RH7.3 with upgraded apps and security patches. The standing joke that "Debian gibt es in drei Flavours: Stale, Rusting und Broken" is music to my ears. It was an incentive to convert to Debian. With RH7.3 expiring in under 2 months, I'm now comfortable in Debian 3.01r, while Redhat's major version number is about to break into 2 digits. -- Walter Dnes Email users are divided into two classes; 1) Those who have effective spam-blocking 2) Those who wish they did -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 2 21:58:44 2003 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2003 16:58:44 -0500 Subject: OpenOffice.org Performance In-Reply-To: <200311021607.48577.marc-bbkyySd1vPWsTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org> References: <200311012209.30879.marc@lijour.net> <3FA514BB.4020306@rogers.com> <200311021607.48577.marc@lijour.net> Message-ID: <3FA57E14.6000608@rogers.com> Marc Lijour (Professeur d'Informatique) wrote: > Le 2 Novembre 2003 09:29, James Knott a ?crit : > >>Marc Lijour (Professeur d'Informatique) wrote: >> >>>Le 1 Novembre 2003 17:48, cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org a ?crit : >>> >>>>>Small nitpick: OO is written in Java afaik, and most of the time is >>>>>spent by the Java hulk stepping out of its package(s). If OO would be >>>>>written in C++ and statically linked (shudder) it should come up at >>>>>about disk speed, assuming the right optimizations are used, just like >>>>>Excel on M$. >>> >>>Thanksfully OOo is getting better and faster with this new release >>>(OOo-1.1 and StarOffice 7). >> >>I recently installed OO0-1.1, and it's still slow loading. > > > Yes, loading is slow. (As is MS office) I guess they've tried a bit to hard to make it like MS Office. ;-) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From marc-bbkyySd1vPWsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 2 22:38:46 2003 From: marc-bbkyySd1vPWsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Marc Lijour (Professeur d'Informatique)) Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 17:38:46 -0500 Subject: OpenOffice.org Performance In-Reply-To: <3FA57E14.6000608-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <200311021607.48577.marc@lijour.net> <3FA57E14.6000608@rogers.com> Message-ID: <200311021738.46391.marc@lijour.net> Le 2 Novembre 2003 16:58, James Knott a ?crit : > Marc Lijour (Professeur d'Informatique) wrote: > > Le 2 Novembre 2003 09:29, James Knott a ?crit : > >>Marc Lijour (Professeur d'Informatique) wrote: > >>>Le 1 Novembre 2003 17:48, cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org a ?crit : > >>>>>Small nitpick: OO is written in Java afaik, and most of the time is > >>>>>spent by the Java hulk stepping out of its package(s). If OO would be > >>>>>written in C++ and statically linked (shudder) it should come up at > >>>>>about disk speed, assuming the right optimizations are used, just like > >>>>>Excel on M$. > >>> > >>>Thanksfully OOo is getting better and faster with this new release > >>>(OOo-1.1 and StarOffice 7). > >> > >>I recently installed OO0-1.1, and it's still slow loading. > > > > Yes, loading is slow. (As is MS office) > > I guess they've tried a bit to hard to make it like MS Office. ;-) And I like that :) It's much easier to have it accepted by MS-addict persons (who do not know, nor do care, about anything else)! Anecdote: (I have so many like this one) One student comes to me, he has a presentation to do in an English course, and he says that he did everything in PowerPoint and that he also needs Windows Media player. The problem is that we only have Corel suites, and OpenOffice (the only way to get MS documents right there..). Conclusion: the direction reminded him that we can not install other programs without the authorization of the School Board. End of story. I can say we are lucky to have OpenOffice here ;) > > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 2 22:40:20 2003 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 17:40:20 -0500 Subject: after Linux, what? in place of Hurd, Eros, Brazil,...? In-Reply-To: References: <20031029214601.GB2221@interlog.com> <20031101235648.900AE4092@cbbrowne.com> Message-ID: <20031102224020.GD6244@m433> On Sun, Nov 02, 2003 at 12:31:15AM -0500, Robert Brockway wrote > > Debian has been having considerable pains in trying to release new > > "stable" releases. > > On the one hand they do strive for stability in Stable releases. I do > agree that the release cycle can be too slow. To a certain extent > this is a necessary pre-requisite for the stability Debian enjoys. > I know the Debian release manager personally (in person I mean) and I > have tried to convey to him the feeling among many that the releases > could afford to be quicker. AAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHH NNNNNNNNNOOOOOOO!!!!!!! If you liked Windows version-du-jour... 1994 install Win 3.1 1995 install Win 95 1996 install Win 95 OSr2 1998 install Win 98 1999 install Win 98 SE 2000 install Win ME 2001 install Win XP ..then I suggest Redhat, which is dropping support for 7.1, 7.2, 7.3, and 8.0 in less than 2 months. RH9 gets dropped in April 2004. Some of us actually prefer to *USE* our computers rather than install new OS versions every few months. -- Walter Dnes Email users are divided into two classes; 1) Those who have effective spam-blocking 2) Those who wish they did -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 2 22:48:57 2003 From: colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 17:48:57 -0500 Subject: Knoppix / Debian problem References: <20031031065348.4d3e2503.joehill@sympatico.ca> <46237.216.138.194.32.1067624431.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> <20031102214812.GB6244@m433> Message-ID: <00ea01c3a193$802552e0$4201a8c0@ym.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> I am running into a bit of strangeness in my efforts to remaster a Knoppix disk (this is a Debian based distribution that boots/runs off the CD-ROM drive). What I need to do is get a specific small script to run after the system boots up (and the knoppix user created, LAN active, but before the user can login / get at a web browser), in essence run this command as root: su - <> -c <> Since I am using the icewm window manager I have tried creating /etc/X11/icewm/startup (which seems to be ignored by icewm). Also, stuff put in /etc/skel seems to be ignored. Suggestions? Ideas? Thanks in advance. Colin McGregor -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 2 22:55:17 2003 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 17:55:17 -0500 Subject: "As for the GPL, it's total war." In-Reply-To: References: <20031030055942.0ae0f1d3.joehill@sympatico.ca> <20031030132133.GB27628@pluto.bsdwebhosting.net> <1067580484.3755.27.camel@rincewind.discworld> <20031101174147.GA4918@m433> Message-ID: <20031102225517.GE6244@m433> On Sat, Nov 01, 2003 at 09:32:00PM +0200, Peter L. Peres wrote > > On Sat, 1 Nov 2003, Walter Dnes wrote: > > > Yes, I realize that SCO's viral-licence claims are a gross parody > > of GPL, but I think that's their game. > > Time to add a clause like that of the OSF/OG license's to the GPL, to > explicitly prohibit the use of the source on non-open systems (and ask > all Linux software publishers past and present to add this clause to > their release clause) (I am aware that the GPL contains a similar line): Unfortunately, this would blow up Cygwin, which keeps me sane in an XP environment at work. It's federal government, scientific support type work rather than the usual beauraucracy. Since I crunch large text files, I need posix utilities like grep, sed, etc. I could either... - go back to ftp'ing stuff back-and-forth between XP and *nix at work - or log on with *nix client for Citrix to run the site-licenced MS Office apps (Outlook, Excel, etc) What's really weird is when I log in to work from home, I'm running... - native X Windowing on my linux machine at home - Citrix client which logs me in to an emulated NT desktop, on top of native X Windowing on my linux machine at home - Then I click on Exceed, which logs me in to emulated X Windowing, on top of an emulated NT desktop, on top of native X Windowing on my linux machine at home With ADSL, it actually works quite well. -- Walter Dnes Email users are divided into two classes; 1) Those who have effective spam-blocking 2) Those who wish they did -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jzygmont-tEQKYFGiemxAYG7eUwYNkWD2FQJk+8+b at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 2 22:52:38 2003 From: jzygmont-tEQKYFGiemxAYG7eUwYNkWD2FQJk+8+b at public.gmane.org (Justin Zygmont) Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 17:52:38 -0500 (EST) Subject: IT Job creations... IT job losses? In-Reply-To: <20031102214812.GB6244-DPTsmTRGv3o@public.gmane.org> References: <20031102214812.GB6244@m433> Message-ID: well, their next release should be out before then, so if you can take the time to upgrade, you'll be good for another year. I had a rh6.2 server for the longest time before finally got around to upgrading it with rh9, but i'm happy I did. The longer you wait to upgrade, the harder it gets. On Sun, 2 Nov 2003, Walter Dnes wrote: > On Fri, Oct 31, 2003 at 01:20:31PM -0500, Keith Mastin wrote > > > Like a certain smp kernel upgrade did earlier this year... > > [...deletia...] > > > ssl upgrade a few months back... > > [...deletia...] > > > You haven't been caught in upgrade hell? > > Upgrades can be put off, unless you want to run an app the *DEMANDS* > that other software be upgraded. With Windows, it's a boatload of > *SECURITY FIXES* that *MUST* be applied *IMMEDIATELY* to protect your > system from being compromised. You do not have the luxury of waiting > and watching mailing lists for reports from "pioneers" (i.e. the guys > with the arrows in their backs). > > > > Redhat's 7.3 was probably the best release they ever had. > Unfortunately, the Microsoft Marketing Mentality is taking hold in > Redhat. The webpage http://www.redhat.com/apps/support/errata/ > indicates that support is being dropped for the following products... > > Red Hat Linux 9 (Shrike) April 30, 2004 > Red Hat Linux 8.0 (Psyche) December 31, 2003 > Red Hat Linux 7.3 (Valhalla) December 31, 2003 > Red Hat Linux 7.2 (Enigma) December 31, 2003 > Red Hat Linux 7.1 (Seawolf) December 31, 2003 > > Yes, I'm a computer hobbyist, but I also want to *USE* my computer, > rather than spend my time upgrading, upgrading, upgrading to > version-du-jour. I wouldn't mind paying $5/month if it could keep my > RH7.3 with upgraded apps and security patches. The standing joke that > "Debian gibt es in drei Flavours: Stale, Rusting und Broken" is music to > my ears. It was an incentive to convert to Debian. With RH7.3 expiring > in under 2 months, I'm now comfortable in Debian 3.01r, while Redhat's > major version number is about to break into 2 digits. > > > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 2 23:11:40 2003 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 18:11:40 -0500 Subject: NVU the WYSIWYG HTML for linux In-Reply-To: <20031030153025.GC3166-248nrIFxrsEvhQDQrEiaqAi/Dn5oqdb4930Pai70D+E@public.gmane.org> References: <3FA1153C.4080300@pcsecurityonline.com> <1067523511.2445.10.camel@gamma373-179.portable.resnet.yorku.ca> <20031030094009.73a59511.joehill@sympatico.ca> <3FA12783.6060401@yahoo.ca> <20031030153025.GC3166@groundstate.chem.yorku.ca> Message-ID: <20031102231140.GF6244@m433> On Thu, Oct 30, 2003 at 10:30:25AM -0500, Austin wrote > While we're on the topic, does anyone know how to: > 1. embed a local html file into each page of a site? (could be done > once or at each page serve, like for a sidebar or a footer) > 2. embed a remote html (on-the-fly) file into a page? (must be dymanic > of course) You can embed almost *ANYTHING* inside of an object tag in a webpage... even another webpage. Here's the code with "<>" de-fanged to "{}" for our friends who read email with web browsers posing as MUA's... {OBJECT style="float: left;" width="220px" height="225px" data="nav_main.html" type="text/html"} {/OBJECT} Check out the source for my current webpage (http://www.waltdnes.org which re-directs to ISP vex.net). I'm in the process of re-doing it, so that code will disappear soon. With CSS it's possible to set up a fixed menu bar that remains at the top of the browser, even when you scroll. The CSS version also validates as XHTML 1.0 STRICT, while frames don't validate under "STRICT". -- Walter Dnes Email users are divided into two classes; 1) Those who have effective spam-blocking 2) Those who wish they did -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 2 23:14:27 2003 From: fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Fraser Campbell) Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 18:14:27 -0500 Subject: IT Job creations... IT job losses? In-Reply-To: <20031102113212.3698bd11.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <5.2.0.9.0.20031101120236.02962588@localhost> <200311021117.36280.fraser@wehave.net> <20031102113212.3698bd11.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <200311021814.27515.fraser@wehave.net> On November 2, 2003 11:32 am, JoeHill wrote: > > In addition to the font issues, the lower border of the Title Font > > select box (WM Preferences) is missing, right border of Close button > > in XFCE Settings is missing. > > what resolution are you viewing this at? I think your browser may be > compressing/resizing the image, it should be 1280 x 960. I don't see any > of the things you point out at all, the fonts look crisp, complete, and > clean. You're absolutely right. Konqueror was using Kuickshow to display the image for some reason. It was royally screwing it up. If viewed directly in Konqueror or mozilla http://www.orderinchaos.org/xfce4.png looks fine. Ignore my mail, one strike against KDE ;-) -- Fraser Campbell http://www.wehave.net/ Halton Hills, Ontario, Canada Debian GNU/Linux -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lists-Gb8Tj4xcA4YgsBAKwltoeQ at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 2 23:17:27 2003 From: lists-Gb8Tj4xcA4YgsBAKwltoeQ at public.gmane.org (Byron Desnoyers Winmill) Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 18:17:27 -0500 Subject: IT Job creations... IT job losses? In-Reply-To: References: <20031102214812.GB6244@m433> Message-ID: <20031102231727.GA80948@pluto.bsdwebhosting.net> On Sun, Nov 02, 2003 at 05:52:38PM -0500, Justin Zygmont wrote: > well, their next release should be out before then, so if you can take the > time to upgrade, you'll be good for another year. [...] The longer you > wait to upgrade, the harder it gets. In a perfect world: you settle on the release you prefer and never touch it again (or at least you don't touch it until there is real incentive to do so -- it keeps OS developers honest that way). As for upgrades getting harder the longer you wait: is it really any easier to upgrade four times in four years than once in four years? (Sure it will be harder that one time, but what of the cumulative work of three upgrades.) Byron. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 2 23:46:51 2003 From: cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org (cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org) Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2003 18:46:51 -0500 Subject: OpenOffice.org Performance In-Reply-To: Message from "Peter L. Peres" of "Sun, 02 Nov 2003 22:14:22 +0200." References: <000d01c39e63$03c92290$24af9d18@alpha> <44593.216.138.194.32.1067562704.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> <20031031065348.4d3e2503.joehill@sympatico.ca> <200310310820.15079.fraser@wehave.net> <20031031083316.3278bcd7.joehill@sympatico.ca> <46123.216.138.194.32.1067623147.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> <5.2.0.9.0.20031101120236.02962588@localhost> <20031101224843.789094092@cbbrowne.com> Message-ID: <20031102234652.3F26344BB@cbbrowne.com> > On Sat, 1 Nov 2003, cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org wrote: > > > OO _is_ quite slow, and the only language that can be pointed at for > > blame for that is C++. > > Okay. > > > wm(X,Y):-write(X),write('@'),write(Y). wm('cbbrowne','ntlug.org'). > > Do you happen to know where I could get some info on DAG and parser > implementation syntax using SWI Prolog ? Parsers have never been my area, so I'm afraid I haven't any good pointers on that. You might ask around at comp.lang.prolog... -- output = reverse("gro.gultn" "@" "enworbbc") http://www.ntlug.org/~cbbrowne/linux.html Would-be National Mottos: USA: "We don't care where you come from. We can't find our *own* country on a map..." -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 2 23:47:33 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 18:47:33 -0500 Subject: IT Job creations... IT job losses? In-Reply-To: References: <3FA52EF9.7010302@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <20031102184733.421ce298.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Sun, 2 Nov 2003 13:46:02 -0500 (EST) Justin Zygmont uttered: > > I wonder what you'd think of this one, it's older than xfce 4. I'll say! > http://solarflow.dyndns.org/wabi/rare.gif What the heck is that? It's Win 3.1, I guess, but with what looks like an old XFCE panel...Cygwin? -- JoeHill Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ It is only with the heart one can see clearly; what is essential is invisible to the eye. -- The Fox, 'The Little Prince" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 2 23:50:47 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 18:50:47 -0500 Subject: IT Job creations... IT job losses? In-Reply-To: <200311021814.27515.fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org> References: <5.2.0.9.0.20031101120236.02962588@localhost> <200311021117.36280.fraser@wehave.net> <20031102113212.3698bd11.joehill@sympatico.ca> <200311021814.27515.fraser@wehave.net> Message-ID: <20031102185047.3fd4af62.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Sun, 2 Nov 2003 18:14:27 -0500 Fraser Campbell uttered: > If viewed directly in > Konqueror or mozilla http://www.orderinchaos.org/xfce4.png looks fine. > Not too shabby, huh? and believe it or not, I tried running it on my P166, and it wasn't too bad, though it's *packed* with RAM. I'd run it as my main desktop, but it's missing some features like autogrouping of windows and stuff that I really love. Plus I'm not a huge fan of icons and taskbars and panels and all that... ;-) -- JoeHill Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ You can get *anywhere* in ten minutes if you drive fast enough. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 2 23:53:21 2003 From: cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org (cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org) Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2003 18:53:21 -0500 Subject: OpenOffice.org Performance In-Reply-To: Message from Walter Dnes of "Sun, 02 Nov 2003 15:55:21 EST." <20031102205521.GA6244-DPTsmTRGv3o@public.gmane.org> References: <000d01c39e63$03c92290$24af9d18@alpha> <44593.216.138.194.32.1067562704.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> <20031031065348.4d3e2503.joehill@sympatico.ca> <200310310820.15079.fraser@wehave.net> <20031031083316.3278bcd7.joehill@sympatico.ca> <46123.216.138.194.32.1067623147.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> <5.2.0.9.0.20031101120236.02962588@localhost> <20031101224843.789094092@cbbrowne.com> <20031102205521.GA6244@m433> Message-ID: <20031102235322.A589244BB@cbbrowne.com> > On Sat, Nov 01, 2003 at 05:48:42PM -0500, cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org wrote > > > My installations of OpenOffice.org contain none of the Java > > components, and are certainly not affected by inefficiencies of > > that nature. > > > > OO _is_ quite slow, and the only language that can be pointed at > > for blame for that is C++. > > The all-in-one packages have been mediocre since the days of Framework > and Symphony. AbiWord and Gnumeric rock. Symphony was OK _as a spreadsheet_; the other modules did suck, for the not unremarkable reason that all (save for the terminal software, that REALLY sucked) were mappings onto the spreadsheet application. I'm not sure the reasons of yesteryear are necessarily applicable now... > BTW, I *INSTALL* GNOME and KDE but I *RUN* FVWM2. The GNOME panel > runs just fine under FVWM2. To summarize... I don't run desktops, I > run applications. That is making the mistake of imagining GNOME and KDE to be "window managers." They aren't. They are two things: 1. Sets of libraries to support an 'application framework', and 2. Sets of applications using those libraries. When people talk about "running GNOME" or "running KDE," this simply doesn't make sense. You run specific GNOME apps or KDE apps. -- If this was helpful, rate me http://www.ntlug.org/~cbbrowne/spreadsheets.html "I don't know why, but first C programs tend to look a lot worse than first programs in any other language (maybe except for FORTRAN, but then I suspect all FORTRAN programs look like `firsts')" -- Olaf Kirch -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jzygmont-tEQKYFGiemxAYG7eUwYNkWD2FQJk+8+b at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 3 01:24:38 2003 From: jzygmont-tEQKYFGiemxAYG7eUwYNkWD2FQJk+8+b at public.gmane.org (Justin Zygmont) Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 20:24:38 -0500 (EST) Subject: IT Job creations... IT job losses? In-Reply-To: <20031102184733.421ce298.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <20031102184733.421ce298.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: On Sun, 2 Nov 2003, JoeHill wrote: > On Sun, 2 Nov 2003 13:46:02 -0500 (EST) > Justin Zygmont uttered: > > > > > I wonder what you'd think of this one, it's older than xfce 4. > > I'll say! > > > http://solarflow.dyndns.org/wabi/rare.gif > > What the heck is that? It's Win 3.1, I guess, but with what looks like > an old XFCE panel...Cygwin? it was actually linux with xfce 2-3 running win 3.1 through wabi. That was one of the first windows emulators for unix, before sun pulled the plug on it forever. There's better things now anyways, I think most wabi users just went with vmware when it came out. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 3 01:59:47 2003 From: fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Fraser Campbell) Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 20:59:47 -0500 Subject: OpenOffice.org Performance In-Reply-To: <20031102235322.A589244BB-xzRQuAxiFLNWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org> References: <000d01c39e63$03c92290$24af9d18@alpha> <20031102205521.GA6244@m433> <20031102235322.A589244BB@cbbrowne.com> Message-ID: <200311022059.47472.fraser@wehave.net> On November 2, 2003 06:53 pm, cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org wrote: > When people talk about "running GNOME" or "running KDE," this simply > doesn't make sense. You run specific GNOME apps or KDE apps. Since KDE supplies it's own window manager (kwm IIRC) and tightly integrated applications I don't see anything wrong with saying you're "running KDE". GNOME is less integrated and it's more common for people to run alternate window managers (sawfish/enlightenment/etc). "Running GNOME" is rather ambiguous. -- Fraser Campbell http://www.wehave.net/ Georgetown, Ontario, Canada Debian GNU/Linux -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From scruss-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 3 02:18:38 2003 From: scruss-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (Stewart C. Russell) Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2003 21:18:38 -0500 Subject: OpenOffice.org Performance In-Reply-To: <200311022059.47472.fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org> References: <000d01c39e63$03c92290$24af9d18@alpha> <20031102205521.GA6244@m433> <20031102235322.A589244BB@cbbrowne.com> <200311022059.47472.fraser@wehave.net> Message-ID: <3FA5BAFE.6080204@sympatico.ca> Fraser Campbell wrote: > > "Running GNOME" is rather ambiguous. All the recent Gnome-based systems I've run have used metacity as the window manager by default, and not offered any other. So I guess I *am* running Gnome. Stewart -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 3 05:38:49 2003 From: davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org) Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 21:38:49 -0800 Subject: SOS; apt-get dist-updrade mashes modules Message-ID: <20031102213849.4c6338af.davidjpatrick@sympatico.ca> Howldy fellow tluggers, I'm in the digital doghouse again, after flying high I've crashed and burned. Allow me to explain; My knoppix-installed debian stable/testing system has been running fine on my PIII500 w. 512 ram. apt-get got testy recently, when knx-alsa and alsa-base ceased to play nicely. Thanks to Kareems, I resolved the conflict by removing them both with the same "apt-get remove" command. I then reinstalled alsa base. ooooo happy happy ! my next stroke of genius was "apt-get dist-upgrade" I have invoked this bit of debian black magic about 5 times now. The first time, immediately after a knoppix-hdinstall (to make the brilliant boot-linux my installed base), was an unmitigated disaster. SPLAT ! trasharoo.. start again ! Since then, however, I have carefully apt-got (?) my way to sufficiently current level so that "apt-get dist-upgrade" was a good thing. Yes the last few invocations left me with a happy box and that squeaky fresh everything-is-new feeling. Well, this time, after resolving the nagging knx-alsa conflict, I couldn't wait to upgrade my dist. The result has (once again) crippled my box. I can start it up and log in but no ethernet (no sympatico) no serial devices (no palm pilot sync) co CDR (no k3b) modprobe (whatever that is) has become the anal probe ! The errors, on startup and shutdown, are clear; modprobe: modprobe can't open file lib/modules/extra/modules.dep (no such file or directory) This complaint is repeated a good twenty times. I have no idea how to fix it. So where does that leave me ? 1) thanking my stars for data backups, knoppix and damnsmalllinux boot CDs 2) hoping to find sage advice in making modprobe happy 3) considering compiling my first kernel (2.6test9, no less) 4) starting from scratch, again, maybe this time booting with bonzai, instead if knoppix 5) not kidding, this time I won't just back up the data, but the whole shebang (mondo ? Hdup ? other?) I'm sure this is childsplay, to seasoned sysadmins, such as yourselves, but I could really use some sound advice right about now. This cycle of hero 2 zero is getting a bit tiresome, but I have no choice but to go another round (unless I just switch to a daytimer and a faxmachine ;-) i'll just sit here, in the lotus position, at the base of the mountain, untill the guru is IN, djp -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 3 03:10:20 2003 From: cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org (cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org) Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2003 22:10:20 -0500 Subject: OpenOffice.org Performance In-Reply-To: Message from Fraser Campbell of "Sun, 02 Nov 2003 20:59:47 EST." <200311022059.47472.fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org> References: <000d01c39e63$03c92290$24af9d18@alpha> <20031102205521.GA6244@m433> <20031102235322.A589244BB@cbbrowne.com> <200311022059.47472.fraser@wehave.net> Message-ID: <20031103031022.06E9F44BB@cbbrowne.com> Fraser Campbell wrote: > On November 2, 2003 06:53 pm, cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org wrote: > > > When people talk about "running GNOME" or "running KDE," this simply > > doesn't make sense. You run specific GNOME apps or KDE apps. > > Since KDE supplies it's own window manager (kwm IIRC) and tightly integrated > applications I don't see anything wrong with saying you're "running KDE". > > GNOME is less integrated and it's more common for people to run alternate > window managers (sawfish/enlightenment/etc). "Running GNOME" is rather > ambiguous. If you look at what is _actually happening_, there is nothing ambiguous about it, except when you use ill-defined terms like "running GNOME" to describe it. What you are _truly_ doing is "running X," along with some set of libraries and applications in addition to some window manager that may or may not have any kind of association with any of these projects. - KDE is not a window manager, as is quite well documented by that project. - GNOME is not a window manager, as is rather less well documented. Both are far and away best described as "application frameworks." -- let name="cbbrowne" and tld="ntlug.org" in String.concat "@" [name;tld];; http://cbbrowne.com/info/x.html "You can not reason a man out of a position he did not reach through reason" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jkls-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 3 03:11:52 2003 From: jkls-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (jkls) Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2003 22:11:52 -0500 Subject: Introduction Message-ID: <3FA5C778.2060606@sympatico.ca> I am returning to this list after about a year of absence because I am trying to get back to using Linux. In the past I've run Redhat 6.2 as a firewall router for about six months and Mandrake 8.1 on the desktop for about three months. I am currently trying to configure Debian 3.0r1 on an IBM 300PL with a monitor that IBM seems to have forgotten ever existed. It's called a PS/1 SVGA. I am also trying to put Mandrake 8.1 on an IBM Thinkpad 390X with a bit of a flaky hard drive. My goal is to learn something about the basic servers. Syslogd, sshd, inetd, bind, named and dhcpd. Following that I would like to work on Apache, Exim, and ftp servers. My immediate goal is get syslogd to to receive remote log messages and to learn a good method of monitoring logs. I will probably start firing off questions soon. LS -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 3 03:34:53 2003 From: john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (John Moniz) Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2003 22:34:53 -0500 Subject: Alternative to GAIM Message-ID: <3FA5CCDD.3000004@sympatico.ca> Amsn is a good alternative to gaim for anyone having trouble installing a version of gaim that works with the latest msn protocol. AMSN is very easy to install and to use - even allows file transfers. The "A" in amsn is for Alvaro, the Spaniard who built it. http://sourceforge.net/projects/amsn/ John. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 3 06:38:33 2003 From: davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org) Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 22:38:33 -0800 Subject: AppGen out of business - one fewer proprietary package for Linux In-Reply-To: <20031031215030.6B44C45DF-xzRQuAxiFLNWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org> References: <20031031215030.6B44C45DF@cbbrowne.com> Message-ID: <20031102223833.1467a688.davidjpatrick@sympatico.ca> On Fri, 31 Oct 2003 16:50:29 -0500 cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org wrote: > > > AppGen, the vendor of an apparently well-regarded set of business > accounting software running on Linux, has just gone out of business. > > And despite promises of source code being held in escrow, the VARs that > depend on being able to get 'license keys' from AppGen appear to be > significant losers in this. I'm not surprised. I had some communication with the author of MoneyDance (an excellent java personal finance app) and he had been quite jerked around by the company, his former employer. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From tim-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 3 05:02:31 2003 From: tim-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Tim Writer) Date: 03 Nov 2003 00:02:31 -0500 Subject: Red Hat to Debian In-Reply-To: <20031102214812.GB6244-DPTsmTRGv3o@public.gmane.org> References: <20031031065348.4d3e2503.joehill@sympatico.ca> <46237.216.138.194.32.1067624431.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> <20031102214812.GB6244@m433> Message-ID: Walter Dnes writes: > > > Redhat's 7.3 was probably the best release they ever had. Agreed. > Unfortunately, the Microsoft Marketing Mentality is taking hold in > Redhat. The webpage http://www.redhat.com/apps/support/errata/ > indicates that support is being dropped for the following products... > > Red Hat Linux 9 (Shrike) April 30, 2004 > Red Hat Linux 8.0 (Psyche) December 31, 2003 > Red Hat Linux 7.3 (Valhalla) December 31, 2003 > Red Hat Linux 7.2 (Enigma) December 31, 2003 > Red Hat Linux 7.1 (Seawolf) December 31, 2003 > > Yes, I'm a computer hobbyist, but I also want to *USE* my computer, > rather than spend my time upgrading, upgrading, upgrading to > version-du-jour. I wouldn't mind paying $5/month if it could keep my > RH7.3 with upgraded apps and security patches. The standing joke that > "Debian gibt es in drei Flavours: Stale, Rusting und Broken" is music to > my ears. It was an incentive to convert to Debian. With RH7.3 expiring > in under 2 months, I'm now comfortable in Debian 3.01r, while Redhat's > major version number is about to break into 2 digits. I couldn't agree more. I've been a Red Hat user since I first encountered it in 1996 as part of the Caldera Network Desktop. IIRC, that was Red Hat 2.0. I migrated to Debian (stable plus selected components of testing and unstable) a couple of months ago, around the release of Red Hat 9, and I couldn't be happier. I can't help wondering how long it will take Red Hat to lose that hard earned mindshare. -- tim writer starnix inc. 905.771.0017 ext. 225 thornhill, ontario, canada http://www.starnix.com professional linux services & products -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 3 05:07:31 2003 From: phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org (Peter Hiscocks) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 00:07:31 -0500 Subject: Red Hat to Debian In-Reply-To: ; from tim-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org on Mon, Nov 03, 2003 at 12:02:31AM -0500 References: <20031031065348.4d3e2503.joehill@sympatico.ca> <46237.216.138.194.32.1067624431.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> <20031102214812.GB6244@m433> Message-ID: <20031103000731.C84@ee.ryerson.ca> I'm currently running Redhad 7.3 on a couple of machines, but I have used and liked Slackware (first in the days when it came on a zillion floppy disks.) Can someone be specific about the problems in the latest Redhats? I do know that our system maintainers at Ryerson are leery of RH because they seem to be diverging from the standard way of doing things that all the other distros use. Is that the problem? Peter On Mon, Nov 03, 2003 at 12:02:31AM -0500, Tim Writer wrote: > Walter Dnes writes: > > > > > > > Redhat's 7.3 was probably the best release they ever had. > > Agreed. > > > Unfortunately, the Microsoft Marketing Mentality is taking hold in > > Redhat. The webpage http://www.redhat.com/apps/support/errata/ > > indicates that support is being dropped for the following products... > > > > Red Hat Linux 9 (Shrike) April 30, 2004 > > Red Hat Linux 8.0 (Psyche) December 31, 2003 > > Red Hat Linux 7.3 (Valhalla) December 31, 2003 > > Red Hat Linux 7.2 (Enigma) December 31, 2003 > > Red Hat Linux 7.1 (Seawolf) December 31, 2003 > > > > Yes, I'm a computer hobbyist, but I also want to *USE* my computer, > > rather than spend my time upgrading, upgrading, upgrading to > > version-du-jour. I wouldn't mind paying $5/month if it could keep my > > RH7.3 with upgraded apps and security patches. The standing joke that > > "Debian gibt es in drei Flavours: Stale, Rusting und Broken" is music to > > my ears. It was an incentive to convert to Debian. With RH7.3 expiring > > in under 2 months, I'm now comfortable in Debian 3.01r, while Redhat's > > major version number is about to break into 2 digits. > > I couldn't agree more. I've been a Red Hat user since I first encountered it > in 1996 as part of the Caldera Network Desktop. IIRC, that was Red Hat 2.0. > I migrated to Debian (stable plus selected components of testing and > unstable) a couple of months ago, around the release of Red Hat 9, and I > couldn't be happier. I can't help wondering how long it will take Red Hat to > lose that hard earned mindshare. > > -- > tim writer starnix inc. > 905.771.0017 ext. 225 thornhill, ontario, canada > http://www.starnix.com professional linux services & products > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- Peter D. Hiscocks Department of Electrical and Computer Engineering Ryerson University, 350 Victoria Street, Toronto, Ontario, M5B 2K3, Canada Phone: (416) 979-5000 Ext 6109 Fax: (416) 979-5280 Email: phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org URL: http://www.ee.ryerson.ca/~phiscock -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jkls-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 3 05:57:38 2003 From: jkls-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (jkls) Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2003 00:57:38 -0500 Subject: su postgres in logs Message-ID: <3FA5EE52.2090009@sympatico.ca> I have the postgres server installed and not configured. One of many such messed up servers. I'm reading the auth logs and there is a su[239]: + console root-postgres line. Is this a normal system login from a cron job or something? It wasn't me doing this su command. I guess this info might be in the Postgres Administrator's guide but I can't get around to that for some time to come. There are several lines of "session opened for user postgres" as well. Why is this? Can it just be the server starting up? I've disabled the postgres startup now anyway. LS -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jerome-mhXWc29+iYPyG1zEObXtfA at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 3 09:45:25 2003 From: jerome-mhXWc29+iYPyG1zEObXtfA at public.gmane.org (JM) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 17:45:25 +0800 Subject: Update kernel via RPM.. In-Reply-To: <44726.216.138.194.32.1067566585.squirrel-16UnNR4aCrhlws70yGkXPA@public.gmane.org> References: <200310301156.18558.jerome@gmanmi.tv> <3FA1BC08.2090500@truxtar.com> <44726.216.138.194.32.1067566585.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> Message-ID: <200311031745.25087.jerome@gmanmi.tv> On Friday 31 October 2003 10:16, Keith Mastin wrote: > > Which distribution are you using? > > > > Under Redhat, each (Redhat packaged) kernel version comes as a different > > package. Installing a new kernel version doesn't override the old one. > > It shouldn't, as long as you read the docs. :) In short, one doesn't > 'upgrade the kernel', one creates a new kernel in case the new one doesn't > work so you have a fallback option. I've heard of people messing things up > by doing rpm -Uvh on a kernel instead of rpm -i. before i was use to updating kernel using up2date... just recently i tried download an rpm from redhat website and tried manually upgrade my kernel.. i tried doing an rpm -Uvh hoping the old kernel will still be intact.. after that quick updgrade tried viewing /boot ... hmm the old files are gone.. and grub.conf doesnt have an entry for old kernel.. =( > > If the OP is using redhat, he should be able to update the kernel by using > up2date. > > > ~ The old boot files, i.e. /boot/vmlinuz-2.4.20-20.9 will still be there. > > ~ They can be removed by manually uninstalling that particular kernel > > version. > > Unless there's space considerations, I would just leave everything in > /boot alone. If you're worried about security just umount /boot. It's not > needed after the kernel boots. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 3 10:40:43 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 05:40:43 -0500 Subject: Introduction In-Reply-To: <3FA5C778.2060606-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FA5C778.2060606@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <20031103054043.6bb7fd89.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Sun, 02 Nov 2003 22:11:52 -0500 jkls uttered: > I will probably start firing off questions soon. ...and I will start reading, copying, and pasting the answers, since you seem to be about 50 steps ahead of this ol' newb ;-) -- JoeHill Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ The soul would have no rainbow had the eyes no tears. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 3 12:14:21 2003 From: fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Fraser Campbell) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 07:14:21 -0500 Subject: OpenOffice.org Performance In-Reply-To: <20031103031022.06E9F44BB-xzRQuAxiFLNWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org> References: <000d01c39e63$03c92290$24af9d18@alpha> <200311022059.47472.fraser@wehave.net> <20031103031022.06E9F44BB@cbbrowne.com> Message-ID: <200311030714.21753.fraser@wehave.net> On November 2, 2003 10:10 pm, cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org wrote: > What you are _truly_ doing is "running X," along with some set of > libraries and applications in addition to some window manager that may > or may not have any kind of association with any of these projects. What about the kernel, init, Debian. etc? If I wanted to get _truly_anal_ maybe I should say that I am running x86? > - KDE is not a window manager, as is quite well documented by that project. I understand that. I did not say KDE was a Window manager. Perhaps you'll understand it better this way: - I run the kwin Window manager - I run the Konqueror web browser - I run the konsole terminal program - I run the kmail email program My wm is from KDE, the 3 X clients that I mention are those that I use the most and are on my screen 99% of the time, all 4 systems are provided by the KDE project but OMG, no, I don't "run KDE". -- Fraser Campbell http://www.wehave.net/ Georgetown, Ontario, Canada Debian GNU/Linux -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 3 12:15:21 2003 From: fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Fraser Campbell) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 07:15:21 -0500 Subject: Update kernel via RPM.. In-Reply-To: <200311031745.25087.jerome-mhXWc29+iYPyG1zEObXtfA@public.gmane.org> References: <200310301156.18558.jerome@gmanmi.tv> <44726.216.138.194.32.1067566585.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> <200311031745.25087.jerome@gmanmi.tv> Message-ID: <200311030715.21101.fraser@wehave.net> On November 3, 2003 04:45 am, JM wrote: > i tried doing an rpm -Uvh hoping the old kernel will still be intact.. > after that quick updgrade tried viewing /boot ... hmm the old files are > gone.. and grub.conf doesnt have an entry for old kernel.. =( There is the problem. Use "rpm -ivh" if you want to preserve old kernels. -- Fraser Campbell http://www.wehave.net/ Georgetown, Ontario, Canada Debian GNU/Linux -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 3 12:26:30 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 07:26:30 -0500 Subject: OpenOffice.org Performance In-Reply-To: <200311030714.21753.fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org> References: <000d01c39e63$03c92290$24af9d18@alpha> <200311022059.47472.fraser@wehave.net> <20031103031022.06E9F44BB@cbbrowne.com> <200311030714.21753.fraser@wehave.net> Message-ID: <20031103072630.4ef43288.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Mon, 3 Nov 2003 07:14:21 -0500 Fraser Campbell uttered: > > - I run the kwin Window manager > - I run the Konqueror web browser > - I run the konsole terminal program > - I run the kmail email program > > My wm is from KDE, the 3 X clients that I mention are those that I use > the most and are on my screen 99% of the time, all 4 systems are > provided by the KDE project but OMG, no, I don't "run KDE". and IIRC, when you load KDE, or any KDE app for that matter, doesn't it load "kdeinit" or something like that, a background daemon for loading KDE shared objects and such (the #1 reason I *don't* run KDE, LOL!)? I mean, when you run KDE, you *really* run KDE, it takes over everything, it even loads it's own version of the sound daemon too, karts (?). -- JoeHill Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Don't let people drive you crazy when you know it's in walking distance. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 3 12:37:13 2003 From: cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org (cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org) Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2003 07:37:13 -0500 Subject: su postgres in logs In-Reply-To: Message from jkls of "Mon, 03 Nov 2003 00:57:38 EST." <3FA5EE52.2090009-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FA5EE52.2090009@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <20031103123714.BC8DD44DA@cbbrowne.com> > I have the postgres server installed and not configured. > One of many such messed up servers. > > I'm reading the auth logs and there is a > su[239]: + console root-postgres line. > Is this a normal system login from a cron job or something? > It wasn't me doing this su command. > I guess this info might be in the > Postgres Administrator's guide but > I can't get around to that for some time to come. > > There are several lines of "session opened for user postgres" as well. > Why is this? Can it just be the server starting up? No, it's probably that your distribution has some cron jobs set up to do maintenance. Commonly, there will be a cron job to do a daily VACUUM on the database, and perhaps a weekly VACUUM FULL as well. -- (format nil "~S@~S" "cbbrowne" "acm.org") http://cbbrowne.com/info/internet.html CBS News report on Fort Worth tornado damage: "Eight major downtown buildings were severely damaged and 1,000 homes were damaged, with 95 uninhabitable. Gov. George W. Bush declared Tarrant County a disaster area. Federal Emergency Management Agency workers are expected to arrive sometime next week after required paperwork is completed." -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 3 12:58:38 2003 From: fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Fraser Campbell) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 07:58:38 -0500 Subject: Red Hat to Debian In-Reply-To: <20031103000731.C84-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w@public.gmane.org> References: <20031031065348.4d3e2503.joehill@sympatico.ca> <20031103000731.C84@ee.ryerson.ca> Message-ID: <200311030758.38230.fraser@wehave.net> On November 3, 2003 12:07 am, Peter Hiscocks wrote: > I do know that our system maintainers at Ryerson are leery of RH because > they seem to be diverging from the standard way of doing things that all > the other distros use. Is that the problem? I have never liked Redhat. My main problem with Redhat, lack of packaged software (SuSe and Debian are immense compared to Redhat) and lack of alternative versions of software. apache2 is the only version of apache provided with Redhat 8. Redhat 8 was released just a few months after apache2 was declared stable. Quite a few apache modules are still not working well, or have not been ported to apache2 at all. Redhat didn't give you a choice of apache 1.3 or 2.0, if you want to run apache 1.3 for compatibility reasons you're on your own. If for some reason you need perl 5.6.1 instead of 5.8.0 too bad, you're on your own. If you need any perl module even slightly off the beaten track it won't be packaged for redhat, same goes for python extensions. gcc same thing, why would you want anything besides 3.2? RPM in redhat 8.0 had a nasty habit of locking up, you then need to remove some db files and rebuild the database. RPM is poorly documented. Redhat is no longer supporting a free version. If you're a contractor or VAR you'll have a hard time trying to fit in Redhat unless you're willing to fork over large sums for the enterprise versions. All I really want from a distribution is package management and not having to build or maintain everything from scratch. Trying to shoehorn Redhat into a solution doesn't make sense to me considering the alternatives that are out there. -- Fraser Campbell http://www.wehave.net/ Georgetown, Ontario, Canada Debian GNU/Linux -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jab-76OBl6+JcyzDN57Tih+YPw at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 3 13:01:04 2003 From: jab-76OBl6+JcyzDN57Tih+YPw at public.gmane.org (Jeremy Baker) Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2003 08:01:04 -0500 Subject: Update kernel via RPM.. In-Reply-To: <200311031745.25087.jerome-mhXWc29+iYPyG1zEObXtfA@public.gmane.org> References: <200310301156.18558.jerome@gmanmi.tv> <3FA1BC08.2090500@truxtar.com> <44726.216.138.194.32.1067566585.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> <200311031745.25087.jerome@gmanmi.tv> Message-ID: <3FA65190.906@muskokatech.ca> If you want the old kernel to stay, then you don't do an upgrade. Next time do rpm -ivh and both will be available. Jeremy Baker JM wrote: >On Friday 31 October 2003 10:16, Keith Mastin wrote: > > >>>Which distribution are you using? >>> >>>Under Redhat, each (Redhat packaged) kernel version comes as a different >>>package. Installing a new kernel version doesn't override the old one. >>> >>> >>It shouldn't, as long as you read the docs. :) In short, one doesn't >>'upgrade the kernel', one creates a new kernel in case the new one doesn't >>work so you have a fallback option. I've heard of people messing things up >>by doing rpm -Uvh on a kernel instead of rpm -i. >> >> >before i was use to updating kernel using up2date... just recently i tried >download an rpm from redhat website and tried manually upgrade my kernel.. > >i tried doing an rpm -Uvh hoping the old kernel will still be intact.. after >that quick updgrade tried viewing /boot ... hmm the old files are gone.. and >grub.conf doesnt have an entry for old kernel.. =( > > > >>If the OP is using redhat, he should be able to update the kernel by using >>up2date. >> >> >> >>>~ The old boot files, i.e. /boot/vmlinuz-2.4.20-20.9 will still be there. >>>~ They can be removed by manually uninstalling that particular kernel >>>version. >>> >>> >>Unless there's space considerations, I would just leave everything in >>/boot alone. If you're worried about security just umount /boot. It's not >>needed after the kernel boots. >> >> > >-- >The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org >TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 3 13:15:23 2003 From: fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Fraser Campbell) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 08:15:23 -0500 Subject: OpenOffice.org Performance In-Reply-To: <20031103072630.4ef43288.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <000d01c39e63$03c92290$24af9d18@alpha> <200311030714.21753.fraser@wehave.net> <20031103072630.4ef43288.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <200311030815.23356.fraser@wehave.net> On November 3, 2003 07:26 am, JoeHill wrote: > and IIRC, when you load KDE, or any KDE app for that matter, doesn't it > load "kdeinit" or something like that, a background daemon for loading > KDE shared objects and such (the #1 reason I *don't* run KDE, LOL!)? Yeah but I never claimed it wasn't bloated ;-) kdeinit is there to preload some libraries and because of the fact that Linux doesn't seem to handle the loading of c++ libraries very well (quickly). I don't understand, or remember, the problem very well but it's something that everyone from KDE to kernel folk were trying to fix and I'm not sure if they've "finished" or are still working on it. http://www.derkarl.org/linking.phtml talks about the problems. -- Fraser Campbell http://www.wehave.net/ Georgetown, Ontario, Canada Debian GNU/Linux -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 3 13:24:49 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 08:24:49 -0500 Subject: Package management patented? Message-ID: <20031103082449.20752358.joehill@sympatico.ca> >From Techfocus, Slashdot, etc. "A company called Bluecurrent has been awarded a patent for updating software over the internet. Yes, it's true. This is real. It sounds like a joke. Almost every software since the beginning of the internet has used the internet to update itself. It shouldn't be difficult to prove prior art but the very fact that you would have to is laughable." Link: http://www.uspto.gov/web/patents/patog/week42/OG/html/1275-3/US06636857-20031021.html Look out Mandrake and Debian, urpmi and apt-get may have to be licensed from these creative geniuses... ;-) -- JoeHill Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Your mind understands what you have been taught; your heart, what is true. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 3 13:46:50 2003 From: fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Fraser Campbell) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 08:46:50 -0500 Subject: Package management patented? In-Reply-To: <20031103082449.20752358.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <20031103082449.20752358.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <200311030846.50748.fraser@wehave.net> On November 3, 2003 08:24 am, JoeHill wrote: >http://www.uspto.gov/web/patents/patog/week42/OG/html/1275-3/US06636857-20031021.html > > Look out Mandrake and Debian, urpmi and apt-get may have to be licensed > from these creative geniuses... ;-) I saw that, either it is a joke or the USPTO is the joke. Oh well the good news is that apt-get uses http or ftp not the "world wide web". apt-get doesn't involve any transmission to "remote storage medium", it works by pulling not pushing. It sounds like they're trying to patent things like Netscape 4.5's roaming access. If they went much further they'd be claiming a patent on thin clients. -- Fraser Campbell http://www.wehave.net/ Georgetown, Ontario, Canada Debian GNU/Linux -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 3 13:49:06 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 08:49:06 -0500 Subject: IT Job creations... IT job losses? In-Reply-To: <20031102214812.GB6244-DPTsmTRGv3o@public.gmane.org> References: <20031031065348.4d3e2503.joehill@sympatico.ca> <46237.216.138.194.32.1067624431.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> <20031102214812.GB6244@m433> Message-ID: <20031103084906.4f786b75.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Sun, 2 Nov 2003 16:48:12 -0500 Walter Dnes uttered: > Upgrades can be put off, unless you want to run an app the *DEMANDS* > that other software be upgraded. With Windows, it's a boatload of > *SECURITY FIXES* that *MUST* be applied *IMMEDIATELY* to protect your > system from being compromised. You do not have the luxury of waiting > and watching mailing lists for reports from "pioneers" (i.e. the guys > with the arrows in their backs). Can I get an "Amen"! There's a huge difference, as this article on Hackinthebox points out: "frixion, who now holds down a steady and respectable job in public sector IT, said that the sheer volume of patches that need applying in order to close the vulnerabilities that are exposed in equally worrying volumes are a headache for administrators. "Take your standard Windows install for example, you need to apply dozens of patches as soon as you install it to make it even half secure. I've just taken a look at the content directory on our Microsoft Software Update Services server here at work and there are over 600Mb of security updates, some critical. Granted they're not all pertinent to a particular system, but it gives you a good idea," he wrote in an e-mail. I do a urpmi.update -a, urpmi --updates --auto-select every few days, and it's rare that I find any critical security updates more than once a month. Mostly minor bugfixes. Last major patches were Apache about a month ago, and XFree about 3 months ago, IIRC. And even the security updates for SSH or Apache cannot be compared to the *trivial* exploits that must be patched every day on Windows. No mere script kiddie is going to exploit SSH or Apache with some VB thang he downloaded and let loose. -- JoeHill Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ The chief cause of problems is solutions. -- Eric Sevareid -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 3 14:00:28 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 09:00:28 -0500 Subject: Package management patented? In-Reply-To: <200311030846.50748.fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org> References: <20031103082449.20752358.joehill@sympatico.ca> <200311030846.50748.fraser@wehave.net> Message-ID: <20031103090028.1435b050.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Mon, 3 Nov 2003 08:46:50 -0500 Fraser Campbell uttered: > I saw that, either it is a joke or the USPTO is the joke. > > Oh well the good news is that apt-get uses http or ftp not the "world > wide web". apt-get doesn't involve any transmission to "remote > storage medium", it works by pulling not pushing. Good point, though I was being facetious. It does just add another point in favour of demolishing the idea of patents the way the exist today, insofar as they are so out-of-step with the current technological mode. > It sounds like they're trying to patent things like Netscape 4.5's > roaming access. If they went much further they'd be claiming a patent > on thin clients. If they went just a little further they'd be doing what BT tried to do awhile back, claim they own the rights to the "hyperlink". I think I'm going to submit a patent on "writing" (process for recording information on a static medium using an ink-tipped stylus), I'll let you know how it goes. -- JoeHill Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ For good, return good. For evil, return justice. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 3 08:28:44 2003 From: davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (b1ssuq39) Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2003 09:28:44 +0100 Subject: SOS; apt-get dist-updrade mashes modules In-Reply-To: <20031102213849.4c6338af.davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <20031102213849.4c6338af.davidjpatrick@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <3FA611BC.8040500@sympatico.ca> > The errors, on startup and shutdown, are clear; >modprobe: modprobe can't open file lib/modules/extra/modules.dep (no such file or directory) > In fact, /lib/modules/extra/ does not exist, but there is a modules.dep in /lib/modules/2.4.21-xfs. so should I; -create /lib/modules/extra/ and drop in a symlink to the existing modules.dep. -try to discern the source of the call to lib/modules/extra/modules.dep and redirect it. -reconfigure (somehow) with update-modules or modprobe (?). -do something more drastic (kernel compile) or re-install the whole shootin' match .. gee this OSS is educational ! thanks guys (and gal) djp -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From marc-bbkyySd1vPWsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 3 14:53:02 2003 From: marc-bbkyySd1vPWsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Marc Lijour) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 09:53:02 -0500 (EST) Subject: Samba and French accents Message-ID: <64142.207.236.219.129.1067871182.squirrel@www.lijour.net> Hi, I have a problem getting samba client to get the french accents displayed correctly at school. We connect to a NT server. The win98 clients all use codepage=850 locally (in autoexec.bat). I tried iocharset=iso8859-1 , iso8859-15 and codepage=850 as options with smbmount in Linux, no results :( Please give me a clue here! Thanks Marc -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 3 09:22:51 2003 From: davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (david J Patrick) Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2003 10:22:51 +0100 Subject: SOS; apt-get dist-updrade mashes modules In-Reply-To: <20031102213849.4c6338af.davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <20031102213849.4c6338af.davidjpatrick@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <3FA61E6B.6040808@sympatico.ca> I suspect a knoppix hardware setting has been orphaned as result of my "apt-get remove knx-alsa" command. In attempts to understand the source of my troubles I am wading through /etc/modutils and etc/modules and found two suspects; 1) /etc/modutils/alsa (Oct31) a symlink to /etc/alsa/modutils/0.9 this is a symlink that a) points to /etc/alsa/modutils/0.9 -------------------------------------------------------------- ### DEBCONF MAGIC # This file was automatically generated by al- sa-base's debconf stuff alias char-major-116 snd alias char-major-14 soundcore options snd major=116 cards_limit=4 alias sound-service-0-0 snd-mixer-oss alias sound-service-0-1 snd-seq-oss alias sound-service-0-3 snd-pcm-oss alias sound-ser- vice-0-8 snd-seq-oss alias sound-service-0-12 snd-pcm-oss ---------------------------------------------------------------- b) seems to be a broken link ! (konqueror says it "doesn't seem to exist anymore") ?? I know that's a contradiction. I can't see why the link is broken, but both konqueror and mc inditcate that it is. 2) /etc/modutils/alsa-0.9-knoppix (Oct 27) ----------------------------------------------------------------- # --- BEGIN: Generated by ALSACONF, do not edit. --- # --- ALSACONF version 0.9.0-knoppix --- alias char-major-116 snd alias snd-card-0 snd-intel8x0 alias char-major-14 soundcore alias sound-slot-0 snd-card-0 alias sound-service-0-0 snd-mixer-oss alias sound-service-0-1 snd-seq-oss alias sound-service-0-3 snd-pcm-oss alias sound-service-0-8 snd-seq-oss alias sound-service-0-12 snd-pcm-oss options snd major=116 cards_limit=1 device_gid=29 device_mode=0660 options snd-intel8x0 index=0 # --- END: Generated by ALSACONF, do not edit. --- -------------------------------------------------------------------- I though I had removed knx-alsa .. how much for a clue ? thanks, djp -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 3 15:31:11 2003 From: clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (CLIFFORD ILKAY) Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2003 10:31:11 -0500 Subject: IT Job creations... IT job losses? In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20031101203213.0335da40-bi+AKbBUZKZeoWH0uzbU5w@public.gmane.org> References: <5.2.0.9.0.20031101120236.02962588@localhost> <000d01c39e63$03c92290$24af9d18@alpha> <44593.216.138.194.32.1067562704.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> <20031031065348.4d3e2503.joehill@sympatico.ca> <200310310820.15079.fraser@wehave.net> <20031031083316.3278bcd7.joehill@sympatico.ca> <46123.216.138.194.32.1067623147.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> <5.2.0.9.0.20031101120236.02962588@localhost> <5.2.0.9.0.20031101203213.0335da40@localhost> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20031103102945.0299de20@localhost> At 20:43 01/11/2003 -0500, CLIFFORD ILKAY wrote: >At 21:38 01/11/2003 +0200, Peter L. Peres wrote: > >>On Sat, 1 Nov 2003, CLIFFORD ILKAY wrote: >> >> > responsive by pre loading many of the DLLs that Office uses when >> Windows is >> > started so that when a user launches Excel, it just appears as opposed to >> > grinding away for 22 seconds (I timed it) before the user sees a >> > spreadsheet. Koffice looks promising because it is tightly integrated with >> >>Small nitpick: OO is written in Java afaik, and most of the time is spent >>by the Java hulk stepping out of its package(s). If OO would be written in >>C++ and statically linked (shudder) it should come up at about disk speed, >>assuming the right optimizations are used, just like Excel on M$. >> >> > So, is Linux ready for the desktop? My answer is "It depends." For the >> > average user who just types letters, uses e-mail, uses a browser, and >> maybe >> > uses spreadsheets, using decent hardware, sure. We have replaced green >> > screen terminals, and Windows and Mac OS desktops with Linux desktops and >> > no one has gone back but, we have been careful to not oversell Linux. >> >>So who is the average user who is not so average and what apps does he >>need that requires M$ ? > >I have a client who uses some very sophisticated (and expensive ~ >$80,000/seat) CAD/CAM software that has little chance of ever running on >Windows. I meant Linux of course. >Though he would love to run Linux, it would be crazy for him to do that >because it would effectively kill his business. Yes, Linux is great and >can leap over tall buildings and all that but, the biggest disservice we >can do to Linux is to claim that it is suitable for all situations and >users. If an organization has vertical market software that runs only on >Windows or Mac OS, it is unlikely that the organization is going to ditch >Windows or Mac OS in favour of Linux. Our success in replacing Windows and >Mac OS desktops has been in areas where the users do a very limited number >of tasks, typically clerical, and the users do not know Windows or Mac OS >particularly well either. If they are a little familiar with Windows or >Mac OS, I have found it to be more difficult to gain their acceptance of Linux. Regards, Clifford Ilkay Dinamis Corporation 3266 Yonge Street, Suite 1419 Toronto, Ontario Canada M4N 3P6 Tel: 416-410-3326 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 3 15:31:50 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 10:31:50 -0500 Subject: SOS; apt-get dist-updrade mashes modules In-Reply-To: <3FA61E6B.6040808-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <20031102213849.4c6338af.davidjpatrick@sympatico.ca> <3FA61E6B.6040808@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <20031103103150.10a1ae35.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Mon, 03 Nov 2003 10:22:51 +0100 david J Patrick uttered: > how much for a clue ? Have you considered, just as an outside possibility, maybe just doing a straight Debian install? I've gone through a Debian install myself and been successful in building a seemingly stable and useable system. I say this only because, if *I* can do it, anyone can... ;-) AFAIK, all you would need to do is make a boot floppy from the Debian site and install over the network, it takes awhile, but it would be free of the Knoppix peculiarities that seem to be plaguing you, and if you go for Debian Testing, the kernel should be up to date enough to recognize all your hardware. Anyway, just a suggestion, this Knoppix thing seems to be on the verge of driving you 'round the bend! -- JoeHill Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ It's hard to drive at the limit, but it's harder to know where the limits are. -- Stirling Moss -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 3 15:35:53 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 10:35:53 -0500 Subject: IT Job creations... IT job losses? In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20031103102945.0299de20-bi+AKbBUZKZeoWH0uzbU5w@public.gmane.org> References: <5.2.0.9.0.20031101120236.02962588@localhost> <000d01c39e63$03c92290$24af9d18@alpha> <44593.216.138.194.32.1067562704.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> <20031031065348.4d3e2503.joehill@sympatico.ca> <200310310820.15079.fraser@wehave.net> <20031031083316.3278bcd7.joehill@sympatico.ca> <46123.216.138.194.32.1067623147.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> <5.2.0.9.0.20031101120236.02962588@localhost> <5.2.0.9.0.20031103102945.0299de20@localhost> Message-ID: <20031103103553.7382c4c7.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Mon, 03 Nov 2003 10:31:11 -0500 CLIFFORD ILKAY uttered: > > I meant Linux of course. I figured that, didn't want to be Mr. Anal and point it out ;-) -- JoeHill Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ We're all in this alone. -- Lily Tomlin -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 3 15:37:49 2003 From: clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (CLIFFORD ILKAY) Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2003 10:37:49 -0500 Subject: OpenOffice.org Performance In-Reply-To: <200311021607.48577.marc-bbkyySd1vPWsTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FA514BB.4020306@rogers.com> <200311012209.30879.marc@lijour.net> <3FA514BB.4020306@rogers.com> <200311021607.48577.marc@lijour.net> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20031103103254.0584f008@localhost> At 16:07 02/11/2003 -0500, Marc Lijour (Professeur d'Informatique) wrote: >Le 2 Novembre 2003 09:29, James Knott a ?crit : > > Marc Lijour (Professeur d'Informatique) wrote: > > > Le 1 Novembre 2003 17:48, cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org a ?crit : > > >>>Small nitpick: OO is written in Java afaik, and most of the time is > > >>> spent by the Java hulk stepping out of its package(s). If OO would be > > >>> written in C++ and statically linked (shudder) it should come up at > > >>> about disk speed, assuming the right optimizations are used, just like > > >>> Excel on M$. > > > > > > Thanksfully OOo is getting better and faster with this new release > > > (OOo-1.1 and StarOffice 7). > > > > I recently installed OO0-1.1, and it's still slow loading. > >Yes, loading is slow. (As is MS office) That has not been my experience. I timed how long it took for the application to be ready to use with my watch with a second hand on the same computer: MS Word: 3 seconds OpenOffice Write: 16 seconds OO is so slow to even load a splash screen that the only way that I can tell that something is happening is with all the disk activity. Regards, Clifford Ilkay Dinamis Corporation 3266 Yonge Street, Suite 1419 Toronto, Ontario Canada M4N 3P6 Tel: 416-410-3326 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 3 09:53:58 2003 From: davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (david J Patrick) Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2003 10:53:58 +0100 Subject: SOS; apt-get dist-updrade mashes modules In-Reply-To: <20031103103150.10a1ae35.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <20031102213849.4c6338af.davidjpatrick@sympatico.ca> <3FA61E6B.6040808@sympatico.ca> <20031103103150.10a1ae35.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <3FA625B6.3030101@sympatico.ca> JoeHill wrote: >On Mon, 03 Nov 2003 10:22:51 +0100 >david J Patrick uttered: > > > >> how much for a clue ? >> >> > >Have you considered, just as an outside possibility, maybe just doing a >straight Debian install? I've gone through a Debian install myself and >been successful in building a seemingly stable and useable system. I say >this only because, if *I* can do it, anyone can... ;-) > >AFAIK, all you would need to do is make a boot floppy from the Debian >site and install over the network, it takes awhile, but it would be >free of the Knoppix peculiarities that seem to be plaguing you, and if >you go for Debian Testing, the kernel should be up to date enough to >recognize all your hardware. > >Anyway, just a suggestion, this Knoppix thing seems to be on the verge >of driving you 'round the bend! > > > Yes Joe, I am reluctantly considering that. Knoppix is an uber brilliant boot linux, but using it as a debian base has been uber painfull. All that cleverness comes with _traps_ ! If I can't exorsize these modprobe deamons _soon_ I'll d/l bonzai as a debian starter and /start_again/, Sometimes I miss the RadioShak TRS-80 model102 now /there/ was a computer ! djp -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 3 15:52:02 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 10:52:02 -0500 Subject: OpenOffice.org Performance In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20031103103254.0584f008-bi+AKbBUZKZeoWH0uzbU5w@public.gmane.org> References: <3FA514BB.4020306@rogers.com> <200311012209.30879.marc@lijour.net> <3FA514BB.4020306@rogers.com> <5.2.0.9.0.20031103103254.0584f008@localhost> Message-ID: <20031103105202.37861bed.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Mon, 03 Nov 2003 10:37:49 -0500 CLIFFORD ILKAY uttered: > OpenOffice Write: 16 seconds > > OO is so slow to even load a splash screen that the only way that I > can tell that something is happening is with all the disk activity. You forgot to mention, OO also lacks the ability to turn your computer into a mass mailing zombie, but I guess they'll work that in there somehow, perhaps in their next release. I just hope that doesn't slow it down even more! -- JoeHill Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ It will be advantageous to cross the great stream ... the Dragon is on the wing in the Sky ... the Great Man rouses himself to his Work. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jingsu-26n5VD7DAF2Tm46uYYfjYg at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 3 15:58:23 2003 From: jingsu-26n5VD7DAF2Tm46uYYfjYg at public.gmane.org (Jing Su) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 10:58:23 -0500 Subject: OpenOffice.org Performance In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20031103103254.0584f008-bi+AKbBUZKZeoWH0uzbU5w@public.gmane.org> References: <3FA514BB.4020306@rogers.com> <200311012209.30879.marc@lijour.net> <3FA514BB.4020306@rogers.com> <5.2.0.9.0.20031103103254.0584f008@localhost> Message-ID: > That has not been my experience. I timed how long it took for the > application to be ready to use with my watch with a second hand on the same > computer: > > MS Word: 3 seconds > > OpenOffice Write: 16 seconds > > OO is so slow to even load a splash screen that the only way that I can > tell that something is happening is with all the disk activity. Do you use MSOffice fast-start? To be honest, I think MSOffice's fast start option is great. Load the needed office libraries and data structures into memory and keep it there. I wish OpoenOffice had the same feature. After all, why are people worried about memory consumption in this day and age of gigabyte memory machines and gigahertz processors? I personally keep my linux box on 24/7, so I just run one instance of OpenOffice on a virtual desktop and leave it. Switching to it is really fast. Plus, it's faster to page to and from disk than to ask OO to re-initialize and re-build all of its data structures and libraries. I'm on a 256MB 400Mhz PentiumII, and task switching to OO after a few hours of NWN only takes about 2 seconds of paging. Well just my little 2 cents. -Jing -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From hughreilly1-PkbjNfxxIARBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 3 16:03:54 2003 From: hughreilly1-PkbjNfxxIARBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Hugh Reilly) Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2003 11:03:54 -0500 Subject: OpenOffice.org Performance Message-ID: In my experience, OO is slow to open, but once it's open, it runs just fine. So I can forgive the slow opening. And I actually do prefer it to Word. It actually let's me do what I want rather than having Bill Gates "think for me", which only requires additional mouse-clicks to undo what Bill thinks I want. -Hugh _______________________________________________ Hugh Reilly XEN Technology Group | LinuxLab 600 Bay Street, Suite 405 Toronto ON M5R 1G6 tel: 416-204-9951 fax: 416-204-9723 email: info-2K4XOyu7qTosA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org _______________________________________________ http://www.xen.ca | http://www.linuxlab.ca >From: CLIFFORD ILKAY >Reply-To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org >To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org >Subject: Re: [TLUG]: OpenOffice.org Performance >Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2003 10:37:49 -0500 > >At 16:07 02/11/2003 -0500, Marc Lijour (Professeur d'Informatique) wrote: >>Le 2 Novembre 2003 09:29, James Knott a ??crit : >> > Marc Lijour (Professeur d'Informatique) wrote: >> > > Le 1 Novembre 2003 17:48, cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org a ??crit : >> > >>>Small nitpick: OO is written in Java afaik, and most of the time is >> > >>> spent by the Java hulk stepping out of its package(s). If OO would >>be >> > >>> written in C++ and statically linked (shudder) it should come up at >> > >>> about disk speed, assuming the right optimizations are used, just >>like >> > >>> Excel on M$. >> > > >> > > Thanksfully OOo is getting better and faster with this new release >> > > (OOo-1.1 and StarOffice 7). >> > >> > I recently installed OO0-1.1, and it's still slow loading. >> >>Yes, loading is slow. (As is MS office) > >That has not been my experience. I timed how long it took for the >application to be ready to use with my watch with a second hand on the same >computer: > >MS Word: 3 seconds > >OpenOffice Write: 16 seconds > >OO is so slow to even load a splash screen that the only way that I can >tell that something is happening is with all the disk activity. > >Regards, > >Clifford Ilkay >Dinamis Corporation >3266 Yonge Street, Suite 1419 >Toronto, Ontario >Canada M4N 3P6 > >Tel: 416-410-3326 > >-- >The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org >TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/bcomm&pgmarket=en-ca&RU=http%3a%2f%2fjoin.msn.com%2f%3fpage%3dmisc%2fspecialoffers%26pgmarket%3den-ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 3 16:19:21 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 11:19:21 -0500 Subject: SOS; apt-get dist-updrade mashes modules In-Reply-To: <3FA625B6.3030101-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <20031102213849.4c6338af.davidjpatrick@sympatico.ca> <3FA61E6B.6040808@sympatico.ca> <20031103103150.10a1ae35.joehill@sympatico.ca> <3FA625B6.3030101@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <20031103111921.503110b0.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Mon, 03 Nov 2003 10:53:58 +0100 david J Patrick uttered: > If I can't exorsize these modprobe deamons _soon_ I'll d/l bonzai > as a debian starter and /start_again/, Hmmm, just did a google on bonzai, looks interesting, beats the boot floppy idea and downloading all the ISO's... > Sometimes I miss the RadioShak TRS-80 model102 now /there/ was a > computer ! My god, man, yes, I remember that one. My neighbor had one, so I did one up on him, and got a Commodore 64...then he went out and snagged an Apple IIc, and I gave up...:-D Wish I hadn't, I didn't touch another computer til 5 years ago, now I'm way behind... -- JoeHill Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ The savior becomes the victim. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From Kpanchoo-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 3 16:26:46 2003 From: Kpanchoo-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Kerry Panchoo) Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2003 11:26:46 -0500 Subject: MicroATX Motherboards Message-ID: <3FA681C6.6060301@rogers.com> hi, if you had the opportunity to select any microATX motherboard with sound/video/LAN onboard what would you recommend to run Linux on- the board should produce good graphics, be able to play VOB files flawlessly off a hard drive. Also what CPU and memory recommendations would you make? Kerry -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 3 16:39:30 2003 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2003 11:39:30 -0500 Subject: MicroATX Motherboards In-Reply-To: <3FA681C6.6060301-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <3FA681C6.6060301@rogers.com> Message-ID: <3FA684C2.2090401@alteeve.com> Hi Kerry, I have built/sold three of these machines to run Linux in the last week or two: -= AN!Apoc Bt1, J2003-01 CPU Intel Celeron 2.6GHz s478, 128kb L2 cache, 400MHz FSB Mainboard Intel D865GLCLK, 800MHz, mATX, GigNIC, Vid., Aud., NonECC RAM, System Kingston 256MB 333MHz, PC2700, CL2.5, NonECC DDR-RAM Fixed Disk Seagate Barracuda 7200.7, 74.5GB 7,200RPM UDMA/100 2MB Optical Drive LG 52x IDE CD-ROM Floppy Disk Panasonic 1.44MB 3.5" Floppy Drive Speakers Altec Lansing 11w RMS, 2-Piece Desktop Satellites (Model 220) Enclosure Antec Minuet mATX Desktop w/ 220w PSU Mouse Logitech WheelMouse Optical, Black, 800dpi Keyboard Logitech Elite Keyboard, Black w/ Audio and Multimedia Keys OS Redhat Linux 9.0 Pre-Install (ISO disks only) This machine is quite reliable (definately when factoring in the overall cost, >$900+tax) and is a good performer. I must declare ignorance at the VOB file format however I don't see these parts not being up to the task. Seagate makes very reliable and very nice performing hard drives. As for memory, I won't touch anything other than Kingston; it is simply the most reliable RAM I have seen in over six years. The Intel mainboard isn't sexy but it, too, is very reliable and Intel fully supports Linux. Hope that helps a bit! Feel free to fire away with any other questions you might have! Madison Kerry Panchoo wrote: > hi, > > if you had the opportunity to select any microATX motherboard with > sound/video/LAN onboard what would you recommend to run Linux on- the > board should produce good graphics, be able to play VOB files flawlessly > off a hard drive. Also what CPU and memory recommendations would you make? > > Kerry > > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From peter.king-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 3 17:05:28 2003 From: peter.king-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Peter King) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 12:05:28 -0500 Subject: Phantom USB device! Message-ID: <20031103170528.GA6323@socrates> I'm trying to get a Samsung yepp 55V working with Linux (currently using Debian Woody and an SMP 2.4.18 kernel). It shows up as /dev/sda, with the FAT partition being sda1 (though fdisk complains that the boundaries are in the wrong place). I can mount it no problem, the usb-storage module loads as do the msdos and fat modules. I can then read it and... Well, I can't quite "write to it". That is: I see an ordinary directory listing; I can apparently copy files to it; I can delete files from it. But when I unplug the yepp, there the supposedly copied files aren't. Curiously, I did succeed in deleting some files from the yepp. So Linux knows it's there and can do at least *some* file manipulations. But not write to it -- although Linux reports that the copy has been successful, and duly notes the copied files in the yepp directory listing -- and it even decrements the freespace left on the yepp appropriately. What's wrong? To add to the general air of teeth-gnashing: the yepp works fine straight out of the box on my daughter's imac, running OS X 10.2. Copy files, delete, whatever. No problem and worked without any fiddling around. Now OS X is just a *nix of another color. What's gone wrong under Linux? (Or possibly: under Debian?) Incidentally, whenever I plug in the yepp the device number keeps getting incremented. This will lead to trouble eventually. I don't know whether it's part of the trouble I'm having now. -- Peter King peter.king-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Philosophy Department University of Toronto (416)-978-3788 ofc Toronto, ON M5S 1A1 (416)-978-8703 fax CANADA All your base are belong to us... -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From linux-cOjNTMaGA5U at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 3 17:12:36 2003 From: linux-cOjNTMaGA5U at public.gmane.org (Ian Goldberg) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 12:12:36 -0500 Subject: Phantom USB device! In-Reply-To: <20031103170528.GA6323-sKwiGYaqY94@public.gmane.org> References: <20031103170528.GA6323@socrates> Message-ID: <20031103171236.GB1941@paip.net> On Mon, Nov 03, 2003 at 12:05:28PM -0500, Peter King wrote: > But when I unplug the yepp, there the supposedly copied files aren't. > > Curiously, I did succeed in deleting some files from the yepp. So Linux > knows it's there and can do at least *some* file manipulations. But not > write to it -- although Linux reports that the copy has been successful, > and duly notes the copied files in the yepp directory listing -- and it > even decrements the freespace left on the yepp appropriately. > > What's wrong? Are you doing a "umount" before pulling the USB cable out? It's possible (likely?) Linux hasn't yet written the changes to the disk, but they're still in the cache. I've seen similar behaviour when using a PCMCIA CF card reader. The umount will flush the changes to the device, and then you can safely disconnect it. - Ian -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From mr.mcgregor-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 3 17:16:20 2003 From: mr.mcgregor-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (John McGregor) Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2003 12:16:20 -0500 Subject: Micro ATX boards Message-ID: <3FA68D64.8000801@sympatico.ca> /Madison Kelly wrote: I have built/sold three of these machines to run Linux in the last week or two: -= AN!Apoc Bt1, J2003-01 CPU Intel Celeron 2.6GHz s478, 128kb L2 cache, 400MHz FSB Mainboard Intel D865GLCLK, 800MHz, mATX, GigNIC, Vid., Aud., NonECC RAM, System Kingston 256MB 333MHz, PC2700, CL2.5, NonECC DDR-RAM Fixed Disk Seagate Barracuda 7200.7, 74.5GB 7,200RPM UDMA/100 2MB Optical Drive LG 52x IDE CD-ROM Floppy Disk Panasonic 1.44MB 3.5" Floppy Drive Speakers Altec Lansing 11w RMS, 2-Piece Desktop Satellites (Model 220) Enclosure Antec Minuet mATX Desktop w/ 220w PSU Mouse Logitech WheelMouse Optical, Black, 800dpi Keyboard Logitech Elite Keyboard, Black w/ Audio and Multimedia Keys OS Redhat Linux 9.0 Pre-Install (ISO disks only) /I'm surprised to see that you're using LG CD-ROMs, given the problems that Mandrake is having with them in conjunction with their latest release. Wouldn't it be prudent to use another manufacturer in anticipation that the owner might decide to switch distros at some point? As a side note I stopped using LG drives about a year ago because I found them to be problematic in reading CD-Rs in general either in Linux or Micro$oft platforms. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From garfield-o1KnIK80MWoTRQv+KTR+0w at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 3 17:16:16 2003 From: garfield-o1KnIK80MWoTRQv+KTR+0w at public.gmane.org (Peter M Garfield) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 12:16:16 -0500 (EST) Subject: Phantom USB device! In-Reply-To: <20031103170528.GA6323-sKwiGYaqY94@public.gmane.org> References: <20031103170528.GA6323@socrates> Message-ID: Hi, On Mon, 3 Nov 2003, Peter King wrote: > Well, I can't quite "write to it". That is: I see an ordinary directory > listing; I can apparently copy files to it; I can delete files from it. > > But when I unplug the yepp, there the supposedly copied files aren't. I've had the same sort of problems at work on a Red Hat 7.3 box with an updated kernel (currently 2.4.20-20.7 according to uname). If it's any comfort, at home on a Mandrake 9.x it works fine. ("It" here for me is a USB keychain drive.) One way the problem shows up for me is md5sums on (large) files copied to the USB device. For small files, it will match, but not for larger files. I haven't figured out the size cut-off because.... I've figured out a (truly awful) workaround for my office machine: it seems to work immediately after a reboot. Not what I want to do or hear, but I'm not root on this machine and our sysadmins are busy enough with real problems. :) > What's wrong? I'm interested, and I hope this has helped a little, but I'm sorry to say that I don't know what's wrong. :) Good luck, and please keep us posted, Peter -- Peter M. Garfield Postdoctoral Fellow, University of Toronto garfield-o1KnIK80MWoTRQv+KTR+0w at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 3 17:30:02 2003 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2003 12:30:02 -0500 Subject: Micro ATX boards In-Reply-To: <3FA68D64.8000801-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FA68D64.8000801@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <3FA6909A.2090300@alteeve.com> I agree and normally do not like using LG drives. The reason I did though was that this machine is aimed at being a quality budget box. I was not willing to cut into the quality of the main system (mainboard, hard drive, RAM and so forth) but the CD-ROM is not critical to the function of the system and low-cost enough that if anything did go wrong, I could afford to replace it under warranty. Besides, I would be suprised if that problem isn't fixed soon. Madison John McGregor wrote: > /Madison Kelly wrote: > > I have built/sold three of these machines to run Linux in the last week > or two: > > -= AN!Apoc Bt1, J2003-01 > CPU Intel Celeron 2.6GHz s478, 128kb L2 cache, 400MHz FSB > Mainboard Intel D865GLCLK, 800MHz, mATX, GigNIC, Vid., > Aud., NonECC > RAM, System Kingston 256MB 333MHz, PC2700, CL2.5, NonECC DDR-RAM > Fixed Disk Seagate Barracuda 7200.7, 74.5GB 7,200RPM UDMA/100 2MB > Optical Drive LG 52x IDE CD-ROM > Floppy Disk Panasonic 1.44MB 3.5" Floppy Drive > Speakers Altec Lansing 11w RMS, 2-Piece Desktop Satellites > (Model 220) > Enclosure Antec Minuet mATX Desktop w/ 220w PSU > Mouse Logitech WheelMouse Optical, Black, 800dpi > Keyboard Logitech Elite Keyboard, Black w/ Audio and > Multimedia Keys > OS Redhat Linux 9.0 Pre-Install (ISO disks only) > > /I'm surprised to see that you're using LG CD-ROMs, given the problems > that Mandrake is having with them in conjunction with their latest > release. Wouldn't it be prudent to use another manufacturer in > anticipation that the owner might decide to switch distros at some point? > > As a side note I stopped using LG drives about a year ago because I > found them to be problematic in reading CD-Rs in general either in Linux > or Micro$oft platforms. > > > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From aitken-BwLjziHGQLusTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 3 18:14:58 2003 From: aitken-BwLjziHGQLusTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Chris Aitken) Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2003 13:14:58 -0500 Subject: printing over the network Message-ID: <3FA69B22.560040AE@onlink.net> I'm trying to print over the network (both machines are rh 7.3) for the first time. I used printtool and chose 'UNIX printer' (instead of the usual 'local') which prompts for 'Server' into which I entered 192.168.0.1, as I don't have any name resolution on the network yet. I left 'Queue' blank as printtool advised that it would just use the default print queue on the server. I was excited when I heard the printer in the other room pulling a piece of paper from the tray. It's just gobbledy gook on the pages - just a line or two at the top of God-knows-how-many-pages if I didn't kill the print job. I did lpq -P [printername] then lprm [job name] to end the job: lpq -P hpdeskjet lprm 159 The DeskJet 692C works fine locally on the 'Server' (as printtool refers to it). I chose the same print driver at the remote machine as the 'server' - HP > Deskjet 692c > hpijs. Any ideas? Chris -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From dt-hKuJ9UrQZDM at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 3 18:14:37 2003 From: dt-hKuJ9UrQZDM at public.gmane.org (David Tilbrook) Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2003 13:14:37 -0500 Subject: combining multiple PostScript or PDF files Message-ID: <3FA69B0D.BDE8A06A@qef.com> Anyone know how to catentate multiple PostScript files into a single PostScript file? Alternatively what about creating a single PDF from multiple PDFs? -- dt -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From sidney-3Kd7Tu4o6f/sBN0MCq728g at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 3 19:08:13 2003 From: sidney-3Kd7Tu4o6f/sBN0MCq728g at public.gmane.org (Sidney Shapiro) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 14:08:13 -0500 Subject: Red Hat Message-ID: <000101c3a23d$d8253e10$6401a8c0@main> Hi All, What does it mean that Red Hat says it will be discontinuing Red Hat Linux? I am currently using red hat, and love it. Will red hat users be moving to something else? I am quite surprised they are going to stop updating and supporting it, doesn't the fact that its user supported as well count for anything? Thanks, Sid -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lance-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 3 19:22:14 2003 From: lance-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Lance F. Squire) Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2003 14:22:14 -0500 Subject: Red Hat In-Reply-To: <000101c3a23d$d8253e10$6401a8c0-UxDKcUsq0RM@public.gmane.org> References: <000101c3a23d$d8253e10$6401a8c0@main> Message-ID: <3FA6AAE6.9090905@alteeve.com> Sidney Shapiro wrote: > Hi All, > > What does it mean that Red Hat says it will be discontinuing Red Hat > Linux? I am currently using red hat, and love it. Will red hat users be > moving to something else? I am quite surprised they are going to stop > updating and supporting it, doesn't the fact that its user supported as > well count for anything? > > Thanks, > > Sid RedHat Personal Linux has become The Fadora Project. RedHat is behind it and it can be downloaded on-line. There just won't be a boxed set. Lance -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 3 19:25:14 2003 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 14:25:14 -0500 Subject: Goldilocks and the 3 bears In-Reply-To: <001201c3a007$e6aa94e0$0a01a8c0-dYW4EvVCS7c@public.gmane.org> References: <001201c3a007$e6aa94e0$0a01a8c0@viper> Message-ID: <20031103192513.GF25986@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Fri, Oct 31, 2003 at 06:37:07PM -0500, Teddy Mills wrote: > I still got that 80GB that I cannot use because the BIOS cannot understand > it. > > So theres three bowls of porridge..... > > 1) sell the drive > 2) find a computer that will understand the 80GB > 3) find an PCI-IDE controller that will undertstand the 80GB > > As for option 3, is that a valid option? I mean the computer/bios wont > understand the drive, but the IDE controller will? Promise Ultra TX2 or something like it. Should be less than $60. Any Promise IDE card that does 66 or higher speed should handle a drive up to 137GB, and the Ultra133 should handle any parallel ATA drive. Serial ATA is a different matter of course. Lennart Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 3 19:13:41 2003 From: hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org (Howard Gibson) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 14:13:41 -0500 Subject: OpenOffice.org Performance In-Reply-To: <3FA5BAFE.6080204-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <000d01c39e63$03c92290$24af9d18@alpha> <20031102205521.GA6244@m433> <20031102235322.A589244BB@cbbrowne.com> <200311022059.47472.fraser@wehave.net> <3FA5BAFE.6080204@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <20031103141341.24a3b4ac.hgibson@eol.ca> On Sun, 02 Nov 2003 21:18:38 -0500 "Stewart C. Russell" wrote: > Fraser Campbell wrote: > > > > "Running GNOME" is rather ambiguous. > > All the recent Gnome-based systems I've run have used metacity as the > window manager by default, and not offered any other. So I guess I *am* > running Gnome. > > Stewart Steward, I am not sure it matters what window manager you run under Gnome. I have discovered that I can launch Nautilus under FVWM2. Nautilus uses up your entire screen, and it captures all your mouse clicks. Under Gnome, I think that's it. Under FVWM2, I can move to another window, or minimize the Nautilus window to get at FVWM2's menus. -- Howard Gibson hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org howard-42qnO8ePF9cV+D8aMU/kSg at public.gmane.org http://home.eol.ca/~hgibson -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 3 19:36:38 2003 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 14:36:38 -0500 Subject: printing over the network In-Reply-To: <3FA69B22.560040AE-BwLjziHGQLusTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FA69B22.560040AE@onlink.net> Message-ID: <20031103193638.GG25986@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Nov 03, 2003 at 01:14:58PM -0500, Chris Aitken wrote: > I'm trying to print over the network (both machines are rh 7.3) for the > first time. > > I used printtool and chose 'UNIX printer' (instead of the usual 'local') > which prompts for 'Server' into which I entered 192.168.0.1, > as I don't have any name resolution on the network yet. > > I left 'Queue' blank as printtool advised that it would just use the > default print queue on the server. > > I was excited when I heard the printer in the other room pulling a piece > of paper from the tray. > > It's just gobbledy gook on the pages - just a line or two at the top of > God-knows-how-many-pages > if I didn't kill the print job. I did lpq -P [printername] then lprm > [job name] to end the job: > > lpq -P hpdeskjet > lprm 159 > > The DeskJet 692C works fine locally on the 'Server' (as printtool refers > to it). I chose the same print driver > at the remote machine as the 'server' - HP > Deskjet 692c > hpijs. > > Any ideas? I use cupsys on all the machines here since it allows auto browsing and pickup of .ppd files for each printer and makes them available to all the Linux machines running cupsys (and Mac's running 10.2 or newer) and can be manually picked on win2k and newer machines as well as win9x with the right add on driver installed. Makes the print setup trivial. Everything is sent around as postscript or raw native (in the case of windows machines). THe old fashion obsolete lp print system is just too painful and limited to bother with. Lennart Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 3 19:37:15 2003 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 14:37:15 -0500 Subject: combining multiple PostScript or PDF files In-Reply-To: <3FA69B0D.BDE8A06A-hKuJ9UrQZDM@public.gmane.org> References: <3FA69B0D.BDE8A06A@qef.com> Message-ID: <20031103193715.GH25986@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Nov 03, 2003 at 01:14:37PM -0500, David Tilbrook wrote: > Anyone know how to catentate multiple PostScript > files into a single PostScript file? > > Alternatively what about creating a single PDF > from multiple PDFs? mpage might do it. Maybe a2ps? Lennart Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From matt-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 3 19:45:40 2003 From: matt-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Matthew Rice) Date: 03 Nov 2003 14:45:40 -0500 Subject: combining multiple PostScript or PDF files In-Reply-To: <3FA69B0D.BDE8A06A-hKuJ9UrQZDM@public.gmane.org> References: <3FA69B0D.BDE8A06A@qef.com> Message-ID: David Tilbrook writes: > Anyone know how to catentate multiple PostScript > files into a single PostScript file? There's psmerge from the psutils package [at least that's what the package is called on RH]. There are some caveats in the man page about it, though. HTH, -- matthew rice starnix inc. phone: 905-771-0017 x242 thornhill, ontario, canada http://www.starnix.com professional linux services & products -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 3 20:58:48 2003 From: john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (Moniz Family) Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2003 15:58:48 -0500 Subject: Phantom USB device! References: <20031103170528.GA6323@socrates> Message-ID: <3FA6C188.7020902@sympatico.ca> Peter King wrote: >I'm trying to get a Samsung yepp 55V working with Linux (currently using >Debian Woody and an SMP 2.4.18 kernel). It shows up as /dev/sda, with >the FAT partition being sda1 (though fdisk complains that the boundaries >are in the wrong place). I can mount it no problem, the usb-storage >module loads as do the msdos and fat modules. I can then read it and... > >Well, I can't quite "write to it". That is: I see an ordinary directory >listing; I can apparently copy files to it; I can delete files from it. > >But when I unplug the yepp, there the supposedly copied files aren't. > >Curiously, I did succeed in deleting some files from the yepp. So Linux >knows it's there and can do at least *some* file manipulations. But not >write to it -- although Linux reports that the copy has been successful, >and duly notes the copied files in the yepp directory listing -- and it >even decrements the freespace left on the yepp appropriately. > >What's wrong? > > > Since you're mounting a vfat device, should you be setting umask=0? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lloyd-fEEwcc3XMu8jODpR/OX0VQ at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 3 19:47:46 2003 From: lloyd-fEEwcc3XMu8jODpR/OX0VQ at public.gmane.org (Lloyd D Budd) Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2003 14:47:46 -0500 Subject: Red Hat In-Reply-To: <3FA6AAE6.9090905-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <000101c3a23d$d8253e10$6401a8c0@main> <3FA6AAE6.9090905@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <1067888866.7392.6.camel@localhost> On Mon, 2003-11-03 at 14:22, Lance F. Squire wrote: > Sidney Shapiro wrote: > > Hi All, > > > > What does it mean that Red Hat says it will be discontinuing Red Hat > > Linux? I am currently using red hat, and love it. Will red hat users be > > moving to something else? I am quite surprised they are going to stop > > updating and supporting it, doesn't the fact that its user supported as > > well count for anything? Yes, it count for a lot, and that is where Fedora comes in. It seems like a much better solution for Redhat.com, and "developers and high-tech enthusiasts". See https://rhn.redhat.com/help/rhlmigrationfaq > RedHat Personal Linux has become The Fadora Project. RedHat is behind it > and it can be downloaded on-line. There just won't be a boxed set. Fedora is still in transition to being 'backed' by Redhat. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From peter.king-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 3 20:22:29 2003 From: peter.king-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Peter King) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 15:22:29 -0500 Subject: Phantom USB device! In-Reply-To: <20031103171236.GB1941-cOjNTMaGA5U@public.gmane.org> References: <20031103170528.GA6323@socrates> <20031103171236.GB1941@paip.net> Message-ID: <20031103202229.GB6811@socrates> On Mon, Nov 03, 2003 at 12:12:36PM -0500, Ian Goldberg wrote: > On Mon, Nov 03, 2003 at 12:05:28PM -0500, Peter King wrote: > > But when I unplug the yepp, there the supposedly copied files aren't. > > > > Curiously, I did succeed in deleting some files from the yepp. So Linux > > knows it's there and can do at least *some* file manipulations. But not > > write to it -- although Linux reports that the copy has been successful, > > and duly notes the copied files in the yepp directory listing -- and it > > even decrements the freespace left on the yepp appropriately. > > > > What's wrong? > > Are you doing a "umount" before pulling the USB cable out? It's > possible (likely?) Linux hasn't yet written the changes to the disk, > but they're still in the cache. I've seen similar behaviour when using > a PCMCIA CF card reader. The umount will flush the changes to the > device, and then you can safely disconnect it. Yes, I was unmounting it. It seems as though the USB-disk writes were being deferred to that point, since nothing would happen immediately after issuing a write command; on a umount there would be a noticeable delay before the USB-disk was unmounted, and the LCD on the Yepp read "Writing". It lied, apparently. -- Peter King peter.king-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Philosophy Department University of Toronto (416)-978-3788 ofc Toronto, ON M5S 1A1 (416)-978-8703 fax CANADA -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jvetterli-zC6tqtfhjqE at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 3 20:33:50 2003 From: jvetterli-zC6tqtfhjqE at public.gmane.org (John Vetterli) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 15:33:50 -0500 (EST) Subject: Phantom USB device! In-Reply-To: References: <20031103170528.GA6323@socrates> Message-ID: On Mon, 3 Nov 2003, Peter M Garfield wrote: > On Mon, 3 Nov 2003, Peter King wrote: > > Well, I can't quite "write to it". That is: I see an ordinary directory > > listing; I can apparently copy files to it; I can delete files from it. > > But when I unplug the yepp, there the supposedly copied files aren't. > I've had the same sort of problems at work on a Red Hat 7.3 box > with an updated kernel (currently 2.4.20-20.7 according to uname). If > it's any comfort, at home on a Mandrake 9.x it works fine. ("It" here > for me is a USB keychain drive.) > One way the problem shows up for me is md5sums on (large) files copied > to the USB device. For small files, it will match, but not for larger > files. I haven't figured out the size cut-off because.... > I've figured out a (truly awful) workaround for my office machine: it > seems to work immediately after a reboot. ... I've had similar problems with the 2.4.20 kernel and slack 9.0. I've found that "rmmod usb-storage" after unmounting and disconnecting the device keeps things working properly. It's an ugle fix, but not as ugle as rebooting. JV -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 3 17:09:11 2003 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter L. Peres) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 19:09:11 +0200 (IST) Subject: OpenOffice.org Performance In-Reply-To: <200311021738.46391.marc-bbkyySd1vPWsTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org> References: <200311021607.48577.marc@lijour.net> <3FA57E14.6000608@rogers.com> <200311021738.46391.marc@lijour.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 2 Nov 2003, Marc Lijour (Professeur d'Informatique) wrote: > Conclusion: the direction reminded him that we can not install other programs > without the authorization of the School Board. End of story. Ahh. What school do you teach at ;-) Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 3 17:42:06 2003 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter L. Peres) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 19:42:06 +0200 (IST) Subject: OpenOffice.org Performance In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20031103103254.0584f008-bi+AKbBUZKZeoWH0uzbU5w@public.gmane.org> References: <3FA514BB.4020306@rogers.com> <200311012209.30879.marc@lijour.net> <3FA514BB.4020306@rogers.com> <5.2.0.9.0.20031103103254.0584f008@localhost> Message-ID: On Mon, 3 Nov 2003, CLIFFORD ILKAY wrote: > OO is so slow to even load a splash screen that the only way that I can > tell that something is happening is with all the disk activity. On Windoze OO preloads itself and then the main screen appears instantly. When you start an app (like write) it does indeed take some time. After all they did not have a chance to load 85% of the office dlls into the os at boot time. Has anyone got figures on boot times of the same machine with and withoug office installed ? (not boot to gui, boot to steady off disk light). Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 3 17:38:48 2003 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter L. Peres) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 19:38:48 +0200 (IST) Subject: Samba and French accents In-Reply-To: <64142.207.236.219.129.1067871182.squirrel-yQHV/pc6l8fuNdv6BosnGw@public.gmane.org> References: <64142.207.236.219.129.1067871182.squirrel@www.lijour.net> Message-ID: > Please give me a clue here! NT uses unicode probably in despite of the selected codepage. Try to see if samba can be told to handle unicode. Which part of samba does not handle the french accents ? Filenames ? Printer ? Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 3 17:30:01 2003 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter L. Peres) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 19:30:01 +0200 (IST) Subject: Package management patented? In-Reply-To: <200311030846.50748.fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org> References: <20031103082449.20752358.joehill@sympatico.ca> <200311030846.50748.fraser@wehave.net> Message-ID: > It sounds like they're trying to patent things like Netscape 4.5's roaming > access. If they went much further they'd be claiming a patent on thin > clients. Sooner or later real people will start totally ignoring their patents on a continuous, systematic basis if this goes on. Apparently they think that if they invented a little IP game everyone will play along. Obviously they have no idea how many feet they are threading on when issuing such patents. Do you realise that that patent may make updating web sites and certain software packages via ftp script an infringement ?!!! Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 3 17:26:20 2003 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter L. Peres) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 19:26:20 +0200 (IST) Subject: OpenOffice.org Performance In-Reply-To: <20031103072630.4ef43288.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <000d01c39e63$03c92290$24af9d18@alpha> <200311022059.47472.fraser@wehave.net> <20031103031022.06E9F44BB@cbbrowne.com> <200311030714.21753.fraser@wehave.net> <20031103072630.4ef43288.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: On Mon, 3 Nov 2003, JoeHill wrote: > I mean, when you run KDE, you *really* run KDE, it takes over > everything, it even loads it's own version of the sound daemon too, > karts (?). You mean like those games meant to run on the borg os that take over everything, including the tcp/ip stack and dialout modem, screen control, sound, keyboard, everything but the bsod ? Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 3 17:12:29 2003 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter L. Peres) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 19:12:29 +0200 (IST) Subject: "As for the GPL, it's total war." In-Reply-To: <20031102225517.GE6244-DPTsmTRGv3o@public.gmane.org> References: <20031030055942.0ae0f1d3.joehill@sympatico.ca> <20031030132133.GB27628@pluto.bsdwebhosting.net> <1067580484.3755.27.camel@rincewind.discworld> <20031101174147.GA4918@m433> <20031102225517.GE6244@m433> Message-ID: On Sun, 2 Nov 2003, Walter Dnes wrote: > On Sat, Nov 01, 2003 at 09:32:00PM +0200, Peter L. Peres wrote > > > > On Sat, 1 Nov 2003, Walter Dnes wrote: > > > > > Yes, I realize that SCO's viral-licence claims are a gross parody > > > of GPL, but I think that's their game. > > > > Time to add a clause like that of the OSF/OG license's to the GPL, to > > explicitly prohibit the use of the source on non-open systems (and ask > > all Linux software publishers past and present to add this clause to > > their release clause) (I am aware that the GPL contains a similar line): > > Unfortunately, this would blow up Cygwin, which keeps me sane in an XP > environment at work. It's federal government, scientific support type > work rather than the usual beauraucracy. Since I crunch large text > files, I need posix utilities like grep, sed, etc. I could either... No, cygwin would buy a redistributor license for $1 with all the paperwork aok and the matter would be legally settled. Companies do this all the time inside (what do you think happens to existing products after a merger ?). Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 3 17:42:53 2003 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter L. Peres) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 19:42:53 +0200 (IST) Subject: OpenOffice.org Performance In-Reply-To: <20031103105202.37861bed.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FA514BB.4020306@rogers.com> <200311012209.30879.marc@lijour.net> <3FA514BB.4020306@rogers.com> <5.2.0.9.0.20031103103254.0584f008@localhost> <20031103105202.37861bed.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: > You forgot to mention, OO also lacks the ability to turn your computer > into a mass mailing zombie, but I guess they'll work that in there > somehow, perhaps in their next release. I just hope that doesn't slow it > down even more! OO has that basic scripting language. It does not lack the capability, it was just not implemented yet ;-( Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 3 21:02:40 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 16:02:40 -0500 Subject: OpenOffice.org Performance In-Reply-To: References: <000d01c39e63$03c92290$24af9d18@alpha> <200311022059.47472.fraser@wehave.net> <20031103031022.06E9F44BB@cbbrowne.com> <200311030714.21753.fraser@wehave.net> <20031103072630.4ef43288.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <20031103160240.1b99d042.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Mon, 3 Nov 2003 19:26:20 +0200 (IST) "Peter L. Peres" uttered: > > You mean like those games meant to run on the borg os that take over > everything, including the tcp/ip stack and dialout modem, screen > control, sound, keyboard, everything but the bsod ? Heh, I only run native Linux binaries, if they don't have a Linux version, I don't run it. No WineX for me... In fact, I haven't been running a whole lot of games recently at all. Unless I'm missing yer point... -- JoeHill Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ He who knows others is wise. He who knows himself is enlightened. -- Lao Tsu -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From skuznets-WRMZ5ucGVl4BXFe83j6qeQ at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 3 21:15:02 2003 From: skuznets-WRMZ5ucGVl4BXFe83j6qeQ at public.gmane.org (Sergey Kuznetsov) Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2003 16:15:02 -0500 Subject: OpenOffice.org Performance In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200311031615.02135.skuznets@blueprint.org> On November 3, 2003 11:03 am, Hugh Reilly wrote: > In my experience, OO is slow to open, but once it's open, it runs just > fine. So I can forgive the slow opening. And I actually do prefer it to > Word. It actually let's me do what I want rather than having Bill Gates > "think for me", which only requires additional mouse-clicks to undo what > Bill thinks I want. > Guys, please don't blame the OOP. OOP C++ is as wast as almost C or Asm does. It slow because it loads tons of SO modules and then linker starts to maps all that relative addresses in SO modules into the real ones in the pocess's memory. Yes, you can make the static version and it will load faster but it will have the huge memory footprint for every instance of OpenOffice. Or you can do the same way how the MS Office does. because .SO == .DLL Or you could ask OO developers use the lazy .SO initialization, and then real function mapping will be done when that function will be called. -- All the Best! ----------------- Sergey Kuznetsov Senior Software Developer Blueprint Initiative Samuel Lunenfeld Research Institute at Mount Sinai Hospital -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From tim-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 3 21:30:06 2003 From: tim-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Tim Writer) Date: 03 Nov 2003 16:30:06 -0500 Subject: OpenOffice.org Performance In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: "Hugh Reilly" writes: > In my experience, OO is slow to open, but once it's open, it runs just > fine. So I can forgive the slow opening. And I actually do prefer it to > Word. It actually let's me do what I want rather than having Bill Gates > "think for me", which only requires additional mouse-clicks to undo what Bill > thinks I want. Agree about the slow to open but not the second part. I had the "pleasure" of working on a six or seven page text document in oowriter this w/e. With the exception of a small table on the last page, the formatting is trivial, i.e. numbered and bulleted paragraphs of text. When working on the page with the table, deletions (using the backspace key) were painfully slow; it couldn't keep up with my typing speed, not even close. This was on a 2 GHz Celeron with 256MB RAM. Now, I was working with change recording enabled (which I hadn't used before) so maybe that was the problem. Word processing was a great invention but they should have stopped with simple fixed font word processors like the old WordStar, early versions of WordPerfect, or even stuff like AppleWorks that I used on my Apple IIe in 1984/85. IMO, WYSIWYG (yeah right) word processors with fancy GUIs are a step backwards. They encourage you to spend a great deal of time fussing with formatting and the results usually bare little or no resemblance to what you see on the screen anyway. In 1987, I used AppleWorks on my Apple IIe, equipped with a 1Mhz processor and 128K of bank switched RAM, to prepare my Bachelor's thesis, an approximately 80 page document IIRC. In 1993, I struggled with a 25 page document using Word for Windows on a then state of the art 66MHz 486 with 16MB RAM. And now, I'm having problems with a 7 pager in OpenOffice on a 2GHz Cerleron with 256MB RAM. There's something wrong here. I'll take Emacs or vi and LaTeX or troff any day. -- tim writer starnix inc. 905.771.0017 ext. 225 thornhill, ontario, canada http://www.starnix.com professional linux services & products -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From dt-hKuJ9UrQZDM at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 3 21:35:10 2003 From: dt-hKuJ9UrQZDM at public.gmane.org (David Tilbrook) Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2003 16:35:10 -0500 Subject: combining multiple PostScript or PDF files References: <3FA69B0D.BDE8A06A@qef.com> Message-ID: <3FA6CA0E.D937B981@qef.com> Matthew Rice wrote: > > David Tilbrook writes: > > Anyone know how to catentate multiple PostScript > > files into a single PostScript file? > > There's psmerge from the psutils package [at least that's what the package is > called on RH]. There are some caveats in the man page about it, though. > > HTH, Well it created the right number of pages, unfortunately all empty. Lennart Sorensen wrote: > mpage might do it. Maybe a2ps? > > Lennart Sorensen mapge and a2ps create ps files, but don't read them. -- dt -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 3 21:46:12 2003 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 16:46:12 -0500 Subject: OpenOffice.org Performance In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20031103214612.GA663@node1.opengeometry.net> On Mon, Nov 03, 2003 at 04:30:06PM -0500, Tim Writer wrote: > "Hugh Reilly" writes: > > > In my experience, OO is slow to open, but once it's open, it runs > > just fine. So I can forgive the slow opening. And I actually do > > prefer it to Word. It actually let's me do what I want rather than > > having Bill Gates "think for me", which only requires additional > > mouse-clicks to undo what Bill thinks I want. ... > Word processing was a great invention but they should have stopped > with simple fixed font word processors like the old WordStar, early > versions of WordPerfect, or even stuff like AppleWorks that I used on > my Apple IIe in 1984/85. IMO, WYSIWYG (yeah right) word processors > with fancy GUIs are a step backwards. They encourage you to spend a > great deal of time fussing with formatting and the results usually > bare little or no resemblance to what you see on the screen anyway. > In 1987, I used AppleWorks on my Apple IIe, equipped with a 1Mhz > processor and 128K of bank switched RAM, to prepare my Bachelor's > thesis, an approximately 80 page document IIRC. In 1993, I struggled > with a 25 page document using Word for Windows on a then state of the > art 66MHz 486 with 16MB RAM. And now, I'm having problems with a 7 > pager in OpenOffice on a 2GHz Cerleron with 256MB RAM. There's > something wrong here. > > I'll take Emacs or vi and LaTeX or troff any day. troff? Wow, that takes me back... It's unfortunate that TeX kill it off, because it wasn't too bad for non-math documents. -- William Park, Open Geometry Consulting, Linux solution for data management and processing. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 3 21:45:32 2003 From: cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org (cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org) Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2003 16:45:32 -0500 Subject: OpenOffice.org Performance In-Reply-To: Message from Tim Writer of "03 Nov 2003 16:30:06 EST." References: Message-ID: <20031103214533.2EA0D44DA@cbbrowne.com> > There's something wrong > here. > > I'll take Emacs or vi and LaTeX or troff any day. I have to vote with you on this... On my 2.4GHz PIV, there are significant pauses when I open new windows, or if I pull up the file dialog. OO is _usable_, but it is by no means quick. And I recall the "bad old days" when I had NO TROUBLE processing a 150 page master's thesis, replete with lots of gory mathematical formulae, on an old Atari ST with 2MB of memory. I did some benchmarking back then to see how TeX would scale, and found that it had NO difficulties coping with documents many megabytes in size on that system with only 2MB of RAM. The sample "large document" that I processed was the King James Bible. It's roughly 5MB in size. TeX ran through it in a few minutes, and had NO difficulties, even though I had ZERO virtual memory and had only a fraction of the memory required to store the whole document in memory. No troubles processing it to .dvi. No problems displaying it, after that, either. The inefficiency of OpenOffice.org is pretty stunning. Almost enough to turn you off of C++ :-). -- (format nil "~S@~S" "cbbrowne" "acm.org") http://www.ntlug.org/~cbbrowne/nonrdbms.html "The X-Files are too optimistic. The truth is *not* out there..." -- Anthony Ord -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From kmastin-PzQIwG9Jn9VAFePFGvp55w at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 3 21:31:53 2003 From: kmastin-PzQIwG9Jn9VAFePFGvp55w at public.gmane.org (Keith Mastin) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 16:31:53 -0500 (EST) Subject: MicroATX Motherboards In-Reply-To: <3FA681C6.6060301-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <3FA681C6.6060301@rogers.com> Message-ID: <55429.216.138.194.32.1067895113.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> Hi Kerry, > if you had the opportunity to select any microATX motherboard with > sound/video/LAN onboard what would you recommend to run Linux on- the > board should produce good graphics, be able to play VOB files flawlessly > off a hard drive. Also what CPU and memory recommendations would you > make? I used to build systems around the hard drive and memory (things people want to know but cannot understand). After a few problems, I started building them around the motherboard, but that also has it's share of snafus. Not all MoBo's can run all CPU's, and not all recommended MoBo's are available. Here's what I learned give me the least headaches: Choose the CPU first. iNtel is expensive, great performance on the high end, a real bottleneck if you use a celeron on a fast board. AMD chips are a lot less expensive, but require that you plan the box for adequate ventilation. AMD chips are only warranted if you use the heatsink supplied by AMD. Dollar for dollar, I go for the AMD as fans are cheaper than iNtel. :) Pick the CPU, then go to the CPU manufacturers site and find the recommended MoBos. Then you have to shop around to find the board you're looking for. In the best case scenario, your board should be able to disable the integrated peripherals in case you want to add something like a higher end sound board, LAN or video card. Most do, some don't. There are generally manuals posted to give you the specs you'll want to see. Another spec you might want to look at is the North Bridge and South Bridge chipsets. I prefer to stay well avay from anything SiS. Cheap and unreliable in my experience. AMD and (if you use an iNtel CPU) iNtel chips are your best bet, but generally you'll find VIA chipsets on a lot of boards. From what I've seen the last year or so, the VIA chipsets have stabilized quite a bit and are quite stable. This just gives you the CPU, MoBo and fan/heatsink, but it's a good start. It's usually a couple hours of homework, but if you want a low maintenance system, it's best to do the footwork now instead of later looking for obsolete replacement parts. HTH Good luck with it. -- Keith Mastin BeechTree Information Technology Services Inc. Toronto, Canada (416)429 9304 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From scruss-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 3 21:55:03 2003 From: scruss-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (Stewart C.Russell) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 16:55:03 -0500 Subject: combining multiple PostScript or PDF files Message-ID: <20031103215503.BJZW6808.tomts27-srv.bellnexxia.net@[209.226.175.18]> Joining arbitrary PostScript files is hard. What you have to do is trick the interpreter into reinitialising at the end of each file. The little shell script referenced here (Link to groups.google.ca) does it. Yeah, it's one of my postings from long ago. I useta be a postscript head. I RPN still think. I find it helps to run the resulting file through ps2pdf, though that might result in odd things happening to your fonts. Joining multiple PDF files -- at least the only way I know how to do it -- is weirder yet. You need something like Perl's PDF::API2 to pick through the documents page by page, adding them to a new composite PDF document. It'll mess up the cross-references for sure. Stewart -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From kmastin-PzQIwG9Jn9VAFePFGvp55w at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 3 22:04:07 2003 From: kmastin-PzQIwG9Jn9VAFePFGvp55w at public.gmane.org (Keith Mastin) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 17:04:07 -0500 (EST) Subject: Package management patented? In-Reply-To: <20031103082449.20752358.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <20031103082449.20752358.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <55506.216.138.194.32.1067897047.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> > "A company called Bluecurrent has been awarded a patent for updating > software over the internet. Yes, it's true. This is real. It sounds like > a joke. Almost every software since the beginning of the internet has > used the internet to update itself. It shouldn't be difficult to prove > prior art but the very fact that you would have to is laughable." Your description is a bit off. They want to use the web to store all the data on machine A and move it to machine B. Looks like they're gearing up to do remote installs of your desktop to your granny's desktop located in Boise Idaho or something like that. This is not just an upgrade or install over the web process, it's more of a ghost process. Symantec should be pleased... They didn't make any claims to fame for using certain or specific protocols (although www is generally thought of as http, but the term world wide web is generic and broad enough to get away using that term). M$ should love these guys.. now they can offer full mirrors of client computer located on their servers, and when that big ole blue screen of death raises it's ugly head you just give a call to M$ and bingo! they rebuild your system from the image stored in Redmond. Let's just hope it works as well as all things M$. :) > Link: > > http://www.uspto.gov/web/patents/patog/week42/OG/html/1275-3/US06636857-20031021.html > > Look out Mandrake and Debian, urpmi and apt-get may have to be licensed > from these creative geniuses... ;-) -- Keith Mastin BeechTree Information Technology Services Inc. Toronto, Canada (416)429 9304 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From kmastin-PzQIwG9Jn9VAFePFGvp55w at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 3 22:17:39 2003 From: kmastin-PzQIwG9Jn9VAFePFGvp55w at public.gmane.org (Keith Mastin) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 17:17:39 -0500 (EST) Subject: su postgres in logs In-Reply-To: <3FA5EE52.2090009-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FA5EE52.2090009@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <55573.216.138.194.32.1067897859.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> > I have the postgres server installed and not configured. > One of many such messed up servers. > > I'm reading the auth logs and there is a > su[239]: + console root-postgres line. > Is this a normal system login from a cron job or something? > It wasn't me doing this su command. > I guess this info might be in the > Postgres Administrator's guide but > I can't get around to that for some time to come. > > There are several lines of "session opened for user postgres" as well. > Why is this? Can it just be the server starting up? > > I've disabled the postgres startup now anyway. A lot of programs start as root and then run under the permissions of the user running them. Nothing to worry about. This is actually a lot more secure than programs that start as root and run as root. -- Keith -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From legrady-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 3 22:38:25 2003 From: legrady-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Tom Legrady) Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2003 17:38:25 -0500 Subject: Package management patented? In-Reply-To: <55506.216.138.194.32.1067897047.squirrel-16UnNR4aCrhlws70yGkXPA@public.gmane.org> References: <20031103082449.20752358.joehill@sympatico.ca> <55506.216.138.194.32.1067897047.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> Message-ID: <3FA6D8E1.2060305@rogers.com> Keith Mastin wrote: >M$ should love these guys.. now they can offer full mirrors of client >computer located on their servers, and when that big ole blue screen of >death raises it's ugly head you just give a call to M$ and bingo! they >rebuild your system from the image stored in Redmond. > You could have a program to restore your known-good installation. The only ( minor ) complication is figuring out how to run a program when MS crashes so hard nothing runs. Tom -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From kmastin-PzQIwG9Jn9VAFePFGvp55w at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 3 22:25:45 2003 From: kmastin-PzQIwG9Jn9VAFePFGvp55w at public.gmane.org (Keith Mastin) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 17:25:45 -0500 (EST) Subject: Red Hat to Debian In-Reply-To: <20031103000731.C84-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w@public.gmane.org> References: <20031031065348.4d3e2503.joehill@sympatico.ca> <46237.216.138.194.32.1067624431.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> <20031102214812.GB6244@m433> <20031103000731.C84@ee.ryerson.ca> Message-ID: <55583.216.138.194.32.1067898345.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> > > I'm currently running Redhad 7.3 on a couple of machines, but I have used > and liked Slackware (first in the days when it came on a zillion floppy > disks.) Can someone be specific about the problems in the latest Redhats? > > I do know that our system maintainers at Ryerson are leery of RH because > they seem to be diverging from the standard way of doing things that all > the other distros use. Is that the problem? Well, it is one of them. Redhat is discontinuing a lot of things, revamping their marketing structure in a cash grab. A lot of dedicated redhat users have been moving (the word Debian seems to surface a lot) to other distros looking for longer release cycles and better developer support. they have this Fedora release due soon that I think they are looking for a bandaid to stop the flood of migrant users to other distro's. The brain surgeon who thought up this great marketing should now be flipping burgers for a living... -- Keith -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 3 22:49:14 2003 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2003 17:49:14 -0500 Subject: OpenOffice.org Performance In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20031103103254.0584f008-bi+AKbBUZKZeoWH0uzbU5w@public.gmane.org> References: <3FA514BB.4020306@rogers.com> <200311012209.30879.marc@lijour.net> <3FA514BB.4020306@rogers.com> <5.2.0.9.0.20031103103254.0584f008@localhost> Message-ID: <3FA6DB6A.2010805@rogers.com> CLIFFORD ILKAY wrote: > At 16:07 02/11/2003 -0500, Marc Lijour (Professeur d'Informatique) wrote: > >> Le 2 Novembre 2003 09:29, James Knott a ?crit : >> > I recently installed OO0-1.1, and it's still slow loading. >> >> Yes, loading is slow. (As is MS office) > > > That has not been my experience. I timed how long it took for the > application to be ready to use with my watch with a second hand on the > same computer: > > MS Word: 3 seconds > > OpenOffice Write: 16 seconds > > OO is so slow to even load a splash screen that the only way that I can > tell that something is happening is with all the disk activity. I just check mine and the 1st Writer load after a boot takes about 15 seconds. After that, less than 5. I had read elsewhere, about preloading something, but I don't recall the details or where I saw it. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From marc-bbkyySd1vPWsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 3 22:55:29 2003 From: marc-bbkyySd1vPWsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Marc Lijour (Professeur d'Informatique)) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 17:55:29 -0500 Subject: Samba and French accents In-Reply-To: References: <64142.207.236.219.129.1067871182.squirrel@www.lijour.net> Message-ID: <200311031755.29929.marc@lijour.net> Le 3 Novembre 2003 12:38, Peter L. Peres a ?crit : > > Please give me a clue here! > > NT uses unicode probably in despite of the selected codepage. Try to see > if samba can be told to handle unicode. Which part of samba does not > handle the french accents ? Filenames ? Printer ? > > Peter I'll try that. Actually I tried this already: iocharset=utf8,codepage=850 I don't know if to put both iocharset and codepage is smart... and it does not work. I'll try iocharset=utf8 alone if that's your suggestion. File names do not appear correctly. Some does it does not appear at all in the console, some other time it appears as a ? (the interrogation sign). Note that the console knows about French chars and take them from the keyboard just fine. In konqueror it is just a problem. Curious, I believe I remember I mounted a CD that was fine. I just don't know what to try anymore ... I don't have a clue! I don't find a doc about that. The samba doc has just an article and is silent on this problem. Google search response set is void :( > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From marc-bbkyySd1vPWsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 3 22:58:05 2003 From: marc-bbkyySd1vPWsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Marc Lijour (Professeur d'Informatique)) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 17:58:05 -0500 Subject: OpenOffice.org Performance In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20031103103254.0584f008-bi+AKbBUZKZeoWH0uzbU5w@public.gmane.org> References: <3FA514BB.4020306@rogers.com> <5.2.0.9.0.20031103103254.0584f008@localhost> Message-ID: <200311031758.05378.marc@lijour.net> Le 3 Novembre 2003 10:37, CLIFFORD ILKAY a ?crit : > At 16:07 02/11/2003 -0500, Marc Lijour (Professeur d'Informatique) wrote: > >Le 2 Novembre 2003 09:29, James Knott a ?crit : > > > Marc Lijour (Professeur d'Informatique) wrote: > > > > Le 1 Novembre 2003 17:48, cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org a ?crit : > > > >>>Small nitpick: OO is written in Java afaik, and most of the time is > > > >>> spent by the Java hulk stepping out of its package(s). If OO would > > > >>> be written in C++ and statically linked (shudder) it should come up > > > >>> at about disk speed, assuming the right optimizations are used, > > > >>> just like Excel on M$. > > > > > > > > Thanksfully OOo is getting better and faster with this new release > > > > (OOo-1.1 and StarOffice 7). > > > > > > I recently installed OO0-1.1, and it's still slow loading. > > > >Yes, loading is slow. (As is MS office) > > That has not been my experience. I timed how long it took for the > application to be ready to use with my watch with a second hand on the same > computer: > > MS Word: 3 seconds MS Office is loaded in memory at start-up.... > OpenOffice Write: 16 seconds > > OO is so slow to even load a splash screen that the only way that I can > tell that something is happening is with all the disk activity. > > Regards, > > Clifford Ilkay > Dinamis Corporation > 3266 Yonge Street, Suite 1419 > Toronto, Ontario > Canada M4N 3P6 > > Tel: 416-410-3326 > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From marc-bbkyySd1vPWsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 3 23:00:33 2003 From: marc-bbkyySd1vPWsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Marc Lijour (Professeur d'Informatique)) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 18:00:33 -0500 Subject: OpenOffice.org Performance In-Reply-To: References: <200311021738.46391.marc@lijour.net> Message-ID: <200311031800.33282.marc@lijour.net> Le 3 Novembre 2003 12:09, Peter L. Peres a ?crit : > On Sun, 2 Nov 2003, Marc Lijour (Professeur d'Informatique) wrote: > > Conclusion: the direction reminded him that we can not install other > > programs without the authorization of the School Board. End of story. > > Ahh. What school do you teach at ;-) At a school that follows the directive of the Board :) And in a board where a sysadmin would not like to work as a teacher :( > Peter > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From kmastin-PzQIwG9Jn9VAFePFGvp55w at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 3 22:44:53 2003 From: kmastin-PzQIwG9Jn9VAFePFGvp55w at public.gmane.org (Keith Mastin) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 17:44:53 -0500 (EST) Subject: after Linux, what? in place of Hurd, Eros, Brazil,...? In-Reply-To: <20031102224020.GD6244-DPTsmTRGv3o@public.gmane.org> References: <20031029214601.GB2221@interlog.com> <20031101235648.900AE4092@cbbrowne.com> <20031102224020.GD6244@m433> Message-ID: <55650.216.138.194.32.1067899493.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> This is sooo not fair... > AAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHH NNNNNNNNNOOOOOOO!!!!!!! > > If you liked Windows version-du-jour... > 1994 install Win 3.1 > 1995 install Win 95 > 1996 install Win 95 OSr2 > > 1998 install Win 98 > 1999 install Win 98 SE > 2000 install Win ME > 2001 install Win XP You're not factoring in the monthly crash and burns that require format/re-install. Those should count for something. -- Keith -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From marc-bbkyySd1vPWsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 3 23:04:02 2003 From: marc-bbkyySd1vPWsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Marc Lijour (Professeur d'Informatique)) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 18:04:02 -0500 Subject: OpenOffice.org Performance In-Reply-To: References: <200311021738.46391.marc@lijour.net> Message-ID: <200311031804.02445.marc@lijour.net> Le 3 Novembre 2003 12:09, Peter L. Peres a ?crit : > On Sun, 2 Nov 2003, Marc Lijour (Professeur d'Informatique) wrote: > > Conclusion: the direction reminded him that we can not install other > > programs without the authorization of the School Board. End of story. > > Ahh. What school do you teach at ;-) Don't misunderstand me on this one, the direction is really nice and they do their job quite well! The board is not the devil either. Do you know (getting back to the subject here) of many offices that use OpenOffice.org? I think you have to be quite open to trust on this in a world of Mega-suites supported by GigaCompanies and big license schemes... > Peter > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From blsonne-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 3 23:09:05 2003 From: blsonne-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Byron Sonne) Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2003 18:09:05 -0500 Subject: OpenOffice.org Performance + rant In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3FA6E011.6030900@rogers.com> > I'll take Emacs or vi and LaTeX or troff any day. Sure, while we're at it why don't we cut power to our houses, dig wells for water, grow our own food, and knit our own clothes? ;) Like it or not, all of the above mentioned programs pretty much suck for creating nicely formatted documents quickly and without (to the average joe) alot of training. My brother needs to bang out a resume this week... I'm supposed to teach him vi in an evening, or even worse, emacs? We have a positive relationship and I'd like to keep it that way :) I use OO.o 1.1 at home (and used to at work 'fore I got layed off) and I don't have any speed issues (1.7GHz/256MB at home, 500Mhz/~512MB at work... Just installed it on a SuSE 8.2 box for my bro' that was a 233MHz *original* Pentium with 192MB and it ran surprisingly well). Maybe my jre is better performing than yours, or the system config has something to do with it. But what you do have to understand is that OO.o serves a *very* important purpose as it is easy to use, has a great deal of nice functionality, and works pretty darn well. Apps are what drive the adoption of an OS, and I think we should be supporting OO.o as, other than the tainting by Sun, methinks it's in our best collective interests. Crap, I hope Sun doesn't read that and yank my cert :( Now if only the formatting and macro imports from MS Office were 100% exact, I'd totally be shitting my pants. -- For good, return good. For evil, return justice. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 3 23:06:38 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 18:06:38 -0500 Subject: OpenOffice.org Performance In-Reply-To: <3FA6DB6A.2010805-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <3FA514BB.4020306@rogers.com> <200311012209.30879.marc@lijour.net> <3FA514BB.4020306@rogers.com> <5.2.0.9.0.20031103103254.0584f008@localhost> <3FA6DB6A.2010805@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20031103180638.7ecc0e08.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Mon, 03 Nov 2003 17:49:14 -0500 James Knott uttered: > > I had read elsewhere, about preloading something, but I don't recall > the details or where I saw it. I think there is a Gnome (or was it Ximian) module that you could install that would load the OO shared objects when X started, then OO would start more quickly...same here, though, can't seem to recollect where I saw that. -- JoeHill Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Before you ask more questions, think about whether you really want to know the answers. -- Gene Wolfe, "The Claw of the Conciliator" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From kmastin-PzQIwG9Jn9VAFePFGvp55w at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 3 22:58:40 2003 From: kmastin-PzQIwG9Jn9VAFePFGvp55w at public.gmane.org (Keith Mastin) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 17:58:40 -0500 (EST) Subject: IT Job creations... IT job losses? In-Reply-To: <20031102214812.GB6244-DPTsmTRGv3o@public.gmane.org> References: <20031031065348.4d3e2503.joehill@sympatico.ca> <46237.216.138.194.32.1067624431.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> <20031102214812.GB6244@m433> Message-ID: <55675.216.138.194.32.1067900320.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> > Upgrades can be put off, unless you want to run an app the *DEMANDS* Not if you're running servers for commercial clients, you can't. As soon as CERT issues the alarm, it's time to move, becaue there are a lot of pretty knowledgeable script kiddies out there exploring *nix. Every exploited linux system I've seen was lacking that one critical upgrade that the sysadmin should have paid more attnetion to. > that other software be upgraded. With Windows, it's a boatload of > *SECURITY FIXES* that *MUST* be applied *IMMEDIATELY* to protect your > system from being compromised. You do not have the luxury of waiting > and watching mailing lists for reports from "pioneers" (i.e. the guys > with the arrows in their backs). I like the pioneer visual :) M$ also has a stack of security fixes that are needed but not quite ready yet. IMHO the only excuse they have is they're all idiots (my M$ flavored brother-in-law included). The point I was trying to make is that upgrades are always a critical situation, never perfect, no matter what OS we run. I remember 'upgrading' from bind8 to bind9, thinking a simple restart should do it... boy was I wrong. All of a sudden none of the domains on the server could be found. That wasn't an upgrade, it should have been completely uninstall, read the docs and install as fresh, but good ole up2date faithfully destroyed the dns connectivity for a while. -- Keith -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 3 23:04:15 2003 From: clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (CLIFFORD ILKAY) Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2003 18:04:15 -0500 Subject: OpenOffice.org Performance In-Reply-To: References: <5.2.0.9.0.20031103103254.0584f008@localhost> <3FA514BB.4020306@rogers.com> <200311012209.30879.marc@lijour.net> <3FA514BB.4020306@rogers.com> <5.2.0.9.0.20031103103254.0584f008@localhost> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20031103174836.01b287e8@localhost> At 19:42 03/11/2003 +0200, Peter L. Peres wrote: >On Mon, 3 Nov 2003, CLIFFORD ILKAY wrote: > > > OO is so slow to even load a splash screen that the only way that I can > > tell that something is happening is with all the disk activity. > >On Windoze OO preloads itself and then the main screen appears instantly. >When you start an app (like write) it does indeed take some time. After >all they did not have a chance to load 85% of the office dlls into the os >at boot time. Has anyone got figures on boot times of the same machine >with and withoug office installed ? (not boot to gui, boot to steady off >disk light). My test was with Windows 2000 on the same machine. Regards, Clifford Ilkay Dinamis Corporation 3266 Yonge Street, Suite 1419 Toronto, Ontario Canada M4N 3P6 Tel: 416-410-3326 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From blsonne-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 3 23:37:58 2003 From: blsonne-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Byron Sonne) Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2003 18:37:58 -0500 Subject: Samba and French accents In-Reply-To: <64142.207.236.219.129.1067871182.squirrel-yQHV/pc6l8fuNdv6BosnGw@public.gmane.org> References: <64142.207.236.219.129.1067871182.squirrel@www.lijour.net> Message-ID: <3FA6E6D6.8080600@rogers.com> I have your solution! Print this picture out and tape it to the front of the case: http://www.vegas.eclipse.co.uk/images/Martin%20Gaisford%20as%20Hercule%20Poirot.jpg Regards, B -- For good, return good. For evil, return justice. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jzygmont-tEQKYFGiemxAYG7eUwYNkWD2FQJk+8+b at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 3 23:55:40 2003 From: jzygmont-tEQKYFGiemxAYG7eUwYNkWD2FQJk+8+b at public.gmane.org (Justin Zygmont) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 18:55:40 -0500 (EST) Subject: Red Hat In-Reply-To: <3FA6AAE6.9090905-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <3FA6AAE6.9090905@alteeve.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 3 Nov 2003, Lance F. Squire wrote: > Sidney Shapiro wrote: > > Hi All, > > > > What does it mean that Red Hat says it will be discontinuing Red Hat > > Linux? I am currently using red hat, and love it. Will red hat users be > > moving to something else? I am quite surprised they are going to stop > > updating and supporting it, doesn't the fact that its user supported as > > well count for anything? > > > > Thanks, > > > > Sid > > RedHat Personal Linux has become The Fadora Project. RedHat is behind it > and it can be downloaded on-line. There just won't be a boxed set. I was suprised at how they worded the announcement when I got the email this morning. Didn't sound too good, they mentioned fedora was unsupported by redhat, and the redhat network won't be available for long. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lloyd-fEEwcc3XMu8jODpR/OX0VQ at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 3 23:55:11 2003 From: lloyd-fEEwcc3XMu8jODpR/OX0VQ at public.gmane.org (Lloyd D Budd) Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2003 18:55:11 -0500 Subject: Red Hat In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1067903711.405.196.camel@localhost> On Mon, 2003-11-03 at 18:55, Justin Zygmont wrote: > I was suprised at how they worded the announcement when I got the email > this morning. Didn't sound too good, they mentioned fedora was > unsupported by redhat, and the redhat network won't be available for long. I am not surprised. Of course they want to get as many people as possible to purchase RedHat WS as opposed to use Fedora. How many times have you called RH for support? Ximian's Redhat mirror has always been faster and more available than RHN -- only thing I use RHN is for kernels and up2date packages. Fedora seems to have at least as good updating available over the net as RHN. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From kmastin-PzQIwG9Jn9VAFePFGvp55w at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 3 23:59:38 2003 From: kmastin-PzQIwG9Jn9VAFePFGvp55w at public.gmane.org (Keith Mastin) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 18:59:38 -0500 (EST) Subject: IT Job creations... IT job losses? In-Reply-To: <20031102072428.0193064e.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <5.2.0.9.0.20031101120236.02962588@localhost><000d01c39e63$03c92290$24af9d18@alpha><44593.216.138.194.32.1067562704.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca><20031031065348.4d3e2503.joehill@sympatico.ca><200310310820.15079.fraser@wehave.net><20031031083316.3278bcd7.joehill@sympatico.ca><46123.216.138.194.32.1067623147.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca><5.2.0.9.0.20031101120236.02962588@localhost><5.2.0.9.0.20031101203213.0335da40@localhost> <20031102072428.0193064e.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <55818.216.138.194.32.1067903978.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> > On Sat, 01 Nov 2003 20:43:00 -0500 > CLIFFORD ILKAY uttered: > >> >So who is the average user who is not so average and what apps does >> >he need that requires M$ ? >> >> I have a client who uses some very sophisticated (and expensive ~ >> $80,000/seat) CAD/CAM software that has little chance of ever running >> on Windows. Though he would love to run Linux, it would be crazy for >> him to do that because it would effectively kill his business. Yes, >> Linux is great and can leap over tall buildings and all that but, the >> biggest disservice we can do to Linux is to claim that it is suitable >> for all situations and users. Best you can do for buddy is give him some protection and backup or mirroring ability, from the sounds of it. I run into this from time to time. > ...but the biggest sevice we can do to Linux (or BSD, or Eros ;-)) is to > break the monopoly, the stranglehold, that MS has on the desktop market, > and thereby give developers a reason to port and/or code versions of > said software for OS's other than Windows. That's why I am convinced > more and more every day that there is an activist component to being an > OSS advocate, or even just as a user. Linux users have shunned the > political debate far too much, I think, believing that they are somehow > above it, and this is wrong. Why is it wrong? M$ has a huge market share on the desktop, yes. Why does that irritate you? Why are you not going after Mac for building bigger, faster and better proprietary computers that you can't customize without killing the warranty? Is that also not monopolistic? I fix a lot of broken windoh$ boxes. Let me tell ya something... those users... M$ is the best they are capable of using, and even that's a stretch. I've seen them decide they didn't need an Administrator account on Win2k, so they deleted it. Let me ask you this: do you really want those people trying to run a computer that's outfitted with anything but windoh$? And the windoh$ coders you referred to. Sharpen your pencil, you have just been duley elected by proxy to port VB to *nix so they too can play with the rest of us. :) > We obviously cannot rely on the DOJ in the US to enforce it's own > convictions of MS on illegal market manipulation, we cannot sit idly by > and watch MS dodge this, if we expect *nix in general to become what I > believe it is supposed to have been all along, the dominant model for > computing everywhere, more advanced, more secure, more stable, and, dare > I say it, more politically and economically egalitarian. I'm not convinced that everyone shares your views about what linux is *supposed to be*. I sure don't. Dominant models genrally suck for anything they weren't designed to do. Volkswagen made a great car with the beetle, but it was thought to be useless for moving a house. > Linux *can be* "suitable for all situations and users", but it's not > going to happen overnight, and it's not going to happen without users > taking an active and participatory role in the politcal discourse that > so far has allowed MS to quietly carry on it's monopolistic game. Ah, you want to push it. What makes linux so great? Yes, it's a good little OS for a lot of things, makes for great inexpensive general servers, but no match against other OSes for some things. We don't yet have a RDBMS that can do live realtime backups without a ton of specialized and expensive hardware and proprietary software, and this is no small issue. I really don't care about X or and of the DE's. As far as I'm concerned X is a lost cause and should be thrown back to the drawing board the same way that a lot of the M$ underbelly is trife. IMHO a whole new graphical user interface architecture needs to be rethunk so we can scrap X altogether. Now just imagine the headaches of the deployment and distribution. Joe, remember that linux is just a baby. It hasn't been around forever line some the Unices or M$. It's come a long way and so far is a great backend support system for running servers, but at the end of a day, it's just another OS to chose from. -- Keith -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From gbell72-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 4 00:21:29 2003 From: gbell72-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (gbell72) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 19:21:29 -0500 (EST) Subject: fetchmail & ssh Message-ID: I tried to ask technical support today whether or not this is supported..But nobody there was able to tell me. I know that fetchmail supports using ssh which I'd like to use, is this possible with rogers from anyones experience? thanks Gardner -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 4 00:35:25 2003 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 19:35:25 -0500 Subject: OpenOffice.org Performance In-Reply-To: <20031103031022.06E9F44BB-xzRQuAxiFLNWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org> References: <000d01c39e63$03c92290$24af9d18@alpha> <20031102205521.GA6244@m433> <20031102235322.A589244BB@cbbrowne.com> <200311022059.47472.fraser@wehave.net> <20031103031022.06E9F44BB@cbbrowne.com> Message-ID: <20031104003525.GA7828@m433> On Sun, Nov 02, 2003 at 10:10:20PM -0500, cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org wrote > If you look at what is _actually happening_, there is nothing > ambiguous about it, except when you use ill-defined terms like > "running GNOME" to describe it. > > What you are _truly_ doing is "running X," along with some set of > libraries and applications in addition to some window manager that may > or may not have any kind of association with any of these projects. > > - KDE is not a window manager, as is quite well documented by that project. > - GNOME is not a window manager, as is rather less well documented. > > Both are far and away best described as "application frameworks." I deliberately used the word "desktop", not "window manager". The usual situation is... - X at lowest level - window manager on top of X - optional "desktop" on top of the window manager; cutsie icons strewn all over, and ooey-gui, touchy-feely interaction. - actual applications that do the work that you bought your computer to do In my personal experience, a 433 or 450 mhz machine with 128 megs of RAM is *PAINFULLY* slow with an optional KDE or GNOME desktop running. Remove the "desktop", and the programs run reasonably fast. I don't use the word "application framework", because that includes some necessary libraries that applications use, as well as all eye-candy on the desktop. -- Walter Dnes Email users are divided into two classes; 1) Those who have effective spam-blocking 2) Those who wish they did -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From kmastin-PzQIwG9Jn9VAFePFGvp55w at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 4 00:18:07 2003 From: kmastin-PzQIwG9Jn9VAFePFGvp55w at public.gmane.org (Keith Mastin) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 19:18:07 -0500 (EST) Subject: fetchmail & ssh In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <55905.216.138.194.32.1067905087.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> > I tried to ask technical support today whether or not this is > supported..But nobody there was able to tell me. I know that fetchmail > supports using ssh which I'd like to use, is this possible with rogers > from anyones experience? You're trying to protect your pop3 password? If you get your mail from rogers, AFAIK your pop3 server address is simply pop3 and they authenticate against the mac address, but I could be wrong. Pop3 has a secured port that can be used.. Check your services file for something like spop3 or pop3s or something similar. Sorry, I don't see any advantage, but I could be misunderstanding what you're looking for and why. (sometimes the why gices us more info, as we sometimes are not quite sure of what were looking for.) -- Keith -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From gbell72-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 4 00:38:09 2003 From: gbell72-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (gbell72) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 19:38:09 -0500 (EST) Subject: fetchmail & ssh In-Reply-To: <55905.216.138.194.32.1067905087.squirrel-16UnNR4aCrhlws70yGkXPA@public.gmane.org> References: <55905.216.138.194.32.1067905087.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> Message-ID: Yes I'm only trying to protect my passwords and my sisters, I was playing around with ethereal for awhile and happened to notice tht I was able to capture her entire email conversations, along with my own. Didn't know abt op3s but I'll take a look. On Mon, 3 Nov 2003, Keith Mastin wrote: > > > I tried to ask technical support today whether or not this is > > supported..But nobody there was able to tell me. I know that fetchmail > > supports using ssh which I'd like to use, is this possible with rogers > > from anyones experience? > > You're trying to protect your pop3 password? If you get your mail from > rogers, AFAIK your pop3 server address is simply pop3 and they > authenticate against the mac address, but I could be wrong. Pop3 has a > secured port that can be used.. Check your services file for something > like spop3 or pop3s or something similar. > > Sorry, I don't see any advantage, but I could be misunderstanding what > you're looking for and why. (sometimes the why gices us more info, as we > sometimes are not quite sure of what were looking for.) > > -- > Keith > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From kmastin-PzQIwG9Jn9VAFePFGvp55w at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 4 00:39:20 2003 From: kmastin-PzQIwG9Jn9VAFePFGvp55w at public.gmane.org (Keith Mastin) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 19:39:20 -0500 (EST) Subject: Package management patented? In-Reply-To: <3FA6D8E1.2060305-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <20031103082449.20752358.joehill@sympatico.ca> <55506.216.138.194.32.1067897047.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> <3FA6D8E1.2060305@rogers.com> Message-ID: <55960.216.138.194.32.1067906360.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> > Keith Mastin wrote: > >>M$ should love these guys.. now they can offer full mirrors of client >>computer located on their servers, and when that big ole blue screen of >>death raises it's ugly head you just give a call to M$ and bingo! they >>rebuild your system from the image stored in Redmond. >> > You could have a program to restore your known-good installation. The > only ( minor ) complication is figuring out how to run a program when MS > crashes so hard nothing runs. They already have these system restore disks that overwrite the whole disk including your saved data... is that what you mean? :) I had to buy a copy of WinXP_pro to learn for a client. Put it on my trusty old IBM thinkpad, which crashed during a filesystem check a month or so later. M$ suport said I need to restore. The WinXP_pro cd was asking for a prior version of M$ on the machine, which there wasn't (I resized my deb install to put it on). I finally got it installed only to find a shiny new XP install with nothing from the previous work, and it dies again (same problem) a couple weeks later. I asked for a refund (just to hassle the so-called tech support weenie) 'cause I bought somethng that didn't work.. weenie hung up. Knowing about M$'s love for $$, I can see them doing away with those restore disks so they can charge you to rebuild your system from their servers, adding in a nice little piece of fine print to the EULA that says that the user agrees that anything on M$ servers is M$ property and cannot be encrypted. And we've all been bored silly with every EULA that flashes across the screen that everyone and their mother just ignores them and hits 'OK'. -- Keith -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 4 01:03:05 2003 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 20:03:05 -0500 Subject: Red Hat to Debian In-Reply-To: <20031103000731.C84-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w@public.gmane.org> References: <20031031065348.4d3e2503.joehill@sympatico.ca> <46237.216.138.194.32.1067624431.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> <20031102214812.GB6244@m433> <20031103000731.C84@ee.ryerson.ca> Message-ID: <20031104010305.GB7828@m433> On Mon, Nov 03, 2003 at 12:07:31AM -0500, Peter Hiscocks wrote > I'm currently running Redhad 7.3 on a couple of machines, but I > have used and liked Slackware (first in the days when it came on a > zillion floppy disks.) Can someone be specific about the problems > in the latest Redhats? > > I do know that our system maintainers at Ryerson are leery of RH > because they seem to be diverging from the standard way of doing > things that all the other distros use. Is that the problem? 7.3 is what's referred to when people say... "They don't make them like that any more". It packed a lot of functionality into a reasonable sized package. 8 and 9 are bigger and more bloated. Libraries are in places, or have weird names, such that when I build the latest slrn or mutt or fvwm, the build process can't find the libraries. I got tired of symlinking libraries all over. fvwm isn't even included in the latest Redhat distro, which is why I had to build manually. I fiddled with CRUX for a while. If I could've built GNOME on CRUX from square 1, I'd still be on CRUX. I don't need the cutsie-wootsie GNOME desktop, because I'll run fvwm instead. I do, however, need apps like Gnumeric, AbiWord, and Gimp. CRUX is what I'd use if I needed a server-only box. It's small, compiled for i686, and comes on 1 (yes, *ONE*) CD. Actually, approx 200 megs at that. It strips out documentation outside of man pages, and doesn't bother with multi-language support in base form. Their "ports" system actually consists of scripts. The script downloads tarballs and builds them from scratch. -- Walter Dnes Email users are divided into two classes; 1) Those who have effective spam-blocking 2) Those who wish they did -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 4 01:20:27 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 20:20:27 -0500 Subject: IT Job creations... IT job losses? In-Reply-To: <55818.216.138.194.32.1067903978.squirrel-16UnNR4aCrhlws70yGkXPA@public.gmane.org> References: <5.2.0.9.0.20031101120236.02962588@localhost> <000d01c39e63$03c92290$24af9d18@alpha> <44593.216.138.194.32.1067562704.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> <20031031065348.4d3e2503.joehill@sympatico.ca> <200310310820.15079.fraser@wehave.net> <20031031083316.3278bcd7.joehill@sympatico.ca> <46123.216.138.194.32.1067623147.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> <5.2.0.9.0.20031101120236.02962588@localhost> <5.2.0.9.0.20031101203213.0335da40@localhost> <20031102072428.0193064e.joehill@sympatico.ca> <55818.216.138.194.32.1067903978.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> Message-ID: <20031103202027.511fbbd2.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Mon, 3 Nov 2003 18:59:38 -0500 (EST) "Keith Mastin" uttered: > Why is it wrong? M$ has a huge market share on the desktop, yes. Why > does that irritate you? Illegal business practices, predatory behaviour, strangling competition, seemingly unlimited willingness to ignore security issues, bullying hardware manufacturers into dumping competing products, etc. etc. > Why are you not going after Mac for building bigger, faster and > better proprietary computers that you can't customize without killing > the warranty? Is that also not monopolistic? Mac was one of MS's victims, remember? Building a totally proprietary system isn't monopolistic, it's just stupid, which is why they were such easy prey. IBM learned this the hard way and is now reaping the benefits of embracing OSS. Sun, Oracle, and Novell have jumped on the bandwagon too. Hey, ask Eric S., the proprietary software model is dead, I just don't want to see MS drag a whole bunch of innocent bystanders down with it. > I fix a lot of broken windoh$ boxes. Let me tell ya something... those > users... M$ is the best they are capable of using, and even that's a > stretch. I've seen them decide they didn't need an Administrator > account on Win2k, so they deleted it. Let me ask you this: do you > really want those people trying to run a computer that's outfitted > with anything but windoh$? Yes. They have a far greater chance of getting their work done without having it interrupted with a BSOD, virus infection, forced upgrades, patches that break functionality, another BSOD...let them try to delete the root account on a properly configured Linux box. Now *that* I would like to see. And if you can click on "Start", you can certainly get used to clicking on the little Gnome foot ;-) And as an added bonus, they won't be able to download and install Gator or Bonzai Buddy. > I'm not convinced that everyone shares your views about what linux is > *supposed to be*. I sure don't. Dominant models genrally suck for > anything they weren't designed to do. Volkswagen made a great car with > the beetle, but it was thought to be useless for moving a house. A lot of people share my views, including the FSF, the producers of several Linux distros, national, regional, and local governments, just to name a few. Yes, diversity is good, which is why Linux is a good choice to replace Windows in a large number of roles, while MS pulls up it's socks and starts running a different kind of software company, one that is competitive and dedicated to customer satisfaction. The latest information I've read indicates they are neither. > > Linux *can be* "suitable for all situations and users", but it's not > > going to happen overnight, and it's not going to happen without > > users taking an active and participatory role in the politcal > > discourse that so far has allowed MS to quietly carry on it's > > monopolistic game. > > Ah, you want to push it. What makes linux so great? Yes, it's a good > little OS for a lot of things, makes for great inexpensive general > servers, but no match against other OSes for some things. We don't yet > have a RDBMS that can do live realtime backups without a ton of > specialized and expensive hardware and proprietary software, and this > is no small issue. It's not going to replace everything, but it sure as hell has a chance at replacing Windows in just about every role that currently occupies. It already outsells Windows in the server market, and it can beat them on the desktop as well. > I really don't care about X or and of the DE's. As far as I'm > concerned X is a lost cause and should be thrown back to the drawing > board the same way that a lot of the M$ underbelly is trife. IMHO a > whole new graphical user interface architecture needs to be rethunk so > we can scrap X altogether. Now just imagine the headaches of the > deployment and distribution. That I don't doubt. X is very very old and seems to be showing its limits. But that's hardly a challenge for the thousands of highly skilled developers who work on GNU software every day. It'll happen, you're right, it has to. > Joe, remember that linux is just a baby. It hasn't been around forever > line some the Unices or M$. It's come a long way and so far is a great > backend support system for running servers, but at the end of a day, > it's just another OS to chose from. I disagree. It is the one OS to present a major challenge to the illegal and egregious monopoly that is MS, an opportunity, if you will, to break the back of Gates' stranglehold on the desktop market. Maybe it won't be the one, but it sure has a hell of a shot at it, and I'm thinkin' I'm bettin' on a winner. And as for all those Windows developers who program in VB, well, adapt or die. -- JoeHill Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ At the end of your life there'll be a good rest, and no further activities are scheduled. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From kmastin-PzQIwG9Jn9VAFePFGvp55w at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 4 01:25:33 2003 From: kmastin-PzQIwG9Jn9VAFePFGvp55w at public.gmane.org (Keith Mastin) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 20:25:33 -0500 (EST) Subject: "As for the GPL, it's total war." In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20031101195505.0299df60-bi+AKbBUZKZeoWH0uzbU5w@public.gmane.org> References: <1067580484.3755.27.camel@rincewind.discworld><20031030055942.0ae0f1d3.joehill@sympatico.ca><20031030132133.GB27628@pluto.bsdwebhosting.net><1067580484.3755.27.camel@rincewind.discworld> <5.2.0.9.0.20031101195505.0299df60@localhost> Message-ID: <56096.216.138.194.32.1067909133.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> > MS does not need to defeat the GPL to use source code from a secure OS > when they can just use BSD code without having to resort to any > shenanigans. MS might want to defeat the GPL for other reasons but > I don't think this is one of them. Shutting down the most dangerous competition should be more than enough. -- Keith -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From kmastin-PzQIwG9Jn9VAFePFGvp55w at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 4 01:40:25 2003 From: kmastin-PzQIwG9Jn9VAFePFGvp55w at public.gmane.org (Keith Mastin) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 20:40:25 -0500 (EST) Subject: gui ueber alles In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <56134.216.138.194.32.1067910025.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> > If the gui is everything and they don't care about anything else, then > they also don't care what car they drive as long as it's blue laquered > and has beige upholstery, right ? ;-) I could see it if they know about as much about cars as they do about computers. Us, we're so unindated with the tech world that we sometimes forget that there's billions of people out there who couldn't care less. If something doesn't work, they'll grab a pencil and paper (things they know) and get right back to work. The power shortage in August was a great little wake-up call for a lot of the mom-n-pop stores in my neighborhood. Some of them now even take cash :) -- Keith -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From tim-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 4 02:47:21 2003 From: tim-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Tim Writer) Date: 03 Nov 2003 21:47:21 -0500 Subject: OpenOffice.org Performance + rant In-Reply-To: <3FA6E011.6030900-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <3FA6E011.6030900@rogers.com> Message-ID: Byron Sonne writes: > > I'll take Emacs or vi and LaTeX or troff any day. > > Sure, while we're at it why don't we cut power to our houses, dig wells for > water, grow our own food, and knit our own clothes? ;) > > > Like it or not, all of the above mentioned programs pretty much suck for > creating nicely formatted documents quickly and without (to the average joe) > alot of training. [snip] > Maybe my jre is better performing than yours, or the system config has > something to do with it. But what you do have to understand is that OO.o > serves a *very* important purpose as it is easy to use [snip] You're making a very common mistake, equating ease of learning (or at least getting started) and ease of use. They're not the same thing. Sure, Emacs, vi, LaTeX, and troff all require a time investment to become proficient. But once proficient, IMHO, they're much easier to use, produce higher quality output, and make _much_ better use of your system's resources. Maybe the time investment isn't worth if for your brother because he doesn't plan to do a lot of document preparation in the future. I do know, however, the time I spent learning these tools in the mid '80s (i.e. twenty years ago) has more than paid off and, more importantly, these skills are still useful to me today. Can you say that about the word processor your were using 20 years ago? I doubt it and I doubt you'll say it about OO.o 20 years from now. -- tim writer starnix inc. 905.771.0017 ext. 225 thornhill, ontario, canada http://www.starnix.com professional linux services & products -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From scruss-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 4 02:49:25 2003 From: scruss-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (Stewart C. Russell) Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2003 21:49:25 -0500 Subject: Samba and French accents In-Reply-To: <3FA6E6D6.8080600-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <64142.207.236.219.129.1067871182.squirrel@www.lijour.net> <3FA6E6D6.8080600@rogers.com> Message-ID: <3FA713B5.50002@sympatico.ca> Byron Sonne wrote: > I have your solution! Print this picture out and tape it to the front of > the case um, but Poirot was supposed to be Belgian. Stewart -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From scruss-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 4 02:52:45 2003 From: scruss-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (Stewart C. Russell) Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2003 21:52:45 -0500 Subject: OpenOffice.org Performance In-Reply-To: <20031103214612.GA663-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20031103214612.GA663@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <3FA7147D.1080502@sympatico.ca> William Park wrote: > > troff? Wow, that takes me back... It's unfortunate that TeX kill it > off, because it wasn't too bad for non-math documents. troff's not dead -- I worked with a company that could do insane layouts in troff -- things that FrameMaker couldn't do. And it would paginate a 2200 page book in under an hour, where FM+SGML took about a week ... Stewart -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From legrady-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 4 03:13:40 2003 From: legrady-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Tom Legrady) Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2003 22:13:40 -0500 Subject: OpenOffice.org Performance In-Reply-To: <3FA7147D.1080502-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <20031103214612.GA663@node1.opengeometry.net> <3FA7147D.1080502@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <3FA71964.1010603@rogers.com> Never cared much for troff, I liked TeX, LaTeX in particular. On the other hand, non-WYSIWYG bothered me for stuff like letters. A thesis or essay I was comfortable drafting and viewing and editing and viewing, but for something mundane it bothered me to have to go back and do things for the appearance. Stewart C. Russell wrote: > William Park wrote: > >> >> troff? Wow, that takes me back... It's unfortunate that TeX kill it >> off, because it wasn't too bad for non-math documents. > > > troff's not dead -- > > I worked with a company that could do insane layouts in troff -- > things that FrameMaker couldn't do. And it would paginate a 2200 page > book in under an hour, where FM+SGML took about a week ... > > Stewart > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From anton-F0u+EriZ6ihBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 4 03:46:51 2003 From: anton-F0u+EriZ6ihBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Anton Markov) Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2003 22:46:51 -0500 Subject: IT Job creations... IT job losses? In-Reply-To: <20031103202027.511fbbd2.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <5.2.0.9.0.20031101120236.02962588@localhost> <000d01c39e63$03c92290$24af9d18@alpha> <44593.216.138.194.32.1067562704.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> <20031031065348.4d3e2503.joehill@sympatico.ca> <200310310820.15079.fraser@wehave.net> <20031031083316.3278bcd7.joehill@sympatico.ca> <46123.216.138.194.32.1067623147.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> <5.2.0.9.0.20031101120236.02962588@localhost> <5.2.0.9.0.20031101203213.0335da40@localhost> <20031102072428.0193064e.joehill@sympatico.ca> <55818.216.138.194.32.1067903978.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> <20031103202027.511fbbd2.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <3FA7212B.4000401@truxtar.com> JoeHill wrote: >On Mon, 3 Nov 2003 18:59:38 -0500 (EST) >"Keith Mastin" uttered: > > > >>Why is it wrong? M$ has a huge market share on the desktop, yes. Why >>does that irritate you? >> >> > >Illegal business practices, predatory behaviour, strangling competition, >seemingly unlimited willingness to ignore security issues, bullying >hardware manufacturers into dumping competing products, etc. etc. > > > ahm... - All businesses are predators; it's win or die in the business world. - Strangling competition is a completely legal and acceptable business practice. You would have to sue every Fortune 500 company if this was illegal. - I thought this whole "MS is insecure" thing was closed up a couple of months ago in a series of posts/articles - "bullying hardware manufacturers into dumping competing products" ... explain please >>Why are you not going after Mac for building bigger, faster and >>better proprietary computers that you can't customize without killing >>the warranty? Is that also not monopolistic? >> >> > >Mac was one of MS's victims, remember? Building a totally proprietary >system isn't monopolistic, it's just stupid, which is why they were such >easy prey. IBM learned this the hard way and is now reaping the benefits >of embracing OSS. Sun, Oracle, and Novell have jumped on the bandwagon >too. Hey, ask Eric S., the proprietary software model is dead, I just >don't want to see MS drag a whole bunch of innocent bystanders down with >it. > > > We are talking about hardware here, not software. Hardware can't be copied using Kazaa or "landed" to your friend for ever. All hardware is "proprietary". Linux runs on Macs; they haven't locked up their system to software. And Macs are much better than Intels or AMDs for video / photo editing. >>I fix a lot of broken windoh$ boxes. Let me tell ya something... those >>users... M$ is the best they are capable of using, and even that's a >>stretch. I've seen them decide they didn't need an Administrator >>account on Win2k, so they deleted it. Let me ask you this: do you >>really want those people trying to run a computer that's outfitted >>with anything but windoh$? >> >> > >Yes. They have a far greater chance of getting their work done without >having it interrupted with a BSOD, virus infection, forced upgrades, >patches that break functionality, another BSOD...let them try to delete >the root account on a properly configured Linux box. Now *that* I would >like to see. And if you can click on "Start", you can certainly get used >to clicking on the little Gnome foot ;-) And as an added bonus, they >won't be able to download and install Gator or Bonzai Buddy. > > > True, but who is going to "properly configure" the box for them? How many *million* new computer users are there in the US every year? There aren't enough Linux enthusiasts out there to help them all yet. >>I'm not convinced that everyone shares your views about what linux is >>*supposed to be*. I sure don't. Dominant models genrally suck for >>anything they weren't designed to do. Volkswagen made a great car with >>the beetle, but it was thought to be useless for moving a house. >> >> > >A lot of people share my views, including the FSF, the producers of >several Linux distros, national, regional, and local governments, just >to name a few. Yes, diversity is good, which is why Linux is a good >choice to replace Windows in a large number of roles, while MS pulls up >it's socks and starts running a different kind of software company, one >that is competitive and dedicated to customer satisfaction. The latest >information I've read indicates they are neither. > > > > Apparently a very large percent of Microsoft customers are very satisfied with their software. The people you mentioned above don't make up more than 10% of the total computer users in the world. If I was a business, I wouldn't care about such a small minority. Windows satisfies the majority of it's users, otherwise they would not buy it (or upgrade to a newer version). Satisfying the remaining 10% would require a complete re-write of Windows. That would be a stupid thing to do. Linux and Mac fills up those 10%, and everyone is happy (except the people who can't accept the truth that not everyone wants to run fvm2 on a 7-year-old PC). Once and for all, get off of Microsoft's back, and don't criticize them until you have created an equal or better business and software model and *implemented* it. >And as for all those Windows developers who program in VB, well, adapt >or die. > > > That I have to agree with. VB is the worst language ever. The only thing worse is Turing :). -- Anton -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lists-Gb8Tj4xcA4YgsBAKwltoeQ at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 4 04:13:11 2003 From: lists-Gb8Tj4xcA4YgsBAKwltoeQ at public.gmane.org (Byron Q. Desnoyers Winmill) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 23:13:11 -0500 (EST) Subject: OpenOffice.org Performance + rant In-Reply-To: <3FA6E011.6030900-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <3FA6E011.6030900@rogers.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 3 Nov 2003, Byron Sonne wrote: > Sure, while we're at it why don't we cut power to our houses, dig wells > for water, grow our own food, and knit our own clothes? ;) Because we would have a lot of trouble running vi after cutting the power. ;-) > all of the above mentioned programs pretty much suck for creating > nicely formatted documents quickly and without [...] alot of training. In most respects, I agree. But I still think that LaTeX produces more nicely formatted documents. > I don't have any speed issues (1.7GHz/256MB at home, 500Mhz/~512MB at > work I would hope not! I keep a couple of old computers around for word processing: 25 MHz/8 MB, and I have no complaints. In my books, any document which requires a more sophisticated word processor probably requires LaTeX. > But what you do have to understand is that OO.o serves a *very* > important purpose as it is easy to use At this point, I would find any modern word processor difficult to use. It has something to do with the modal behaviour of vi. Byron. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 4 04:15:46 2003 From: cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org (cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org) Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2003 23:15:46 -0500 Subject: OpenOffice.org Performance In-Reply-To: Message from Walter Dnes of "Mon, 03 Nov 2003 19:35:25 EST." <20031104003525.GA7828-DPTsmTRGv3o@public.gmane.org> References: <000d01c39e63$03c92290$24af9d18@alpha> <20031102205521.GA6244@m433> <20031102235322.A589244BB@cbbrowne.com> <200311022059.47472.fraser@wehave.net> <20031103031022.06E9F44BB@cbbrowne.com> <20031104003525.GA7828@m433> Message-ID: <20031104041547.4A35D44DA@cbbrowne.com> > On Sun, Nov 02, 2003 at 10:10:20PM -0500, cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org wrote > > > If you look at what is _actually happening_, there is nothing > > ambiguous about it, except when you use ill-defined terms like > > "running GNOME" to describe it. > > > > What you are _truly_ doing is "running X," along with some set of > > libraries and applications in addition to some window manager that may > > or may not have any kind of association with any of these projects. > > > > - KDE is not a window manager, as is quite well documented by that project. > > - GNOME is not a window manager, as is rather less well documented. > > > > Both are far and away best described as "application frameworks." > > I deliberately used the word "desktop", not "window manager". The > usual situation is... > - X at lowest level > - window manager on top of X > - optional "desktop" on top of the window manager; cutsie icons strewn > all over, and ooey-gui, touchy-feely interaction. > - actual applications that do the work that you bought your computer > to do But that's not how the desktop environments function. The "desktop" does NOT run 'on top of the window manager.' Applications do NOT run "on top of" the desktop. - The window manager... is an X application that runs atop X. That is the ONLY necessarily special part; window managers are special in that they are exclusive. You cannot run two window managers concurrently. - The "desktop" is a set of X applications that run atop X. - If you're running a "Panel", that is very much equivalent running a program launcher like TkDesk or the "dock" modules in AfterStep and WMaker. - If you are running an "icon object manager," that generally puts in an application that implements the equivalent to DFM or Nautilus or such; programs which try to open windows as large as possible and draw icons to represent files or applications. - GNOME and KDE both have 'server programs' that implement RPC servers. GNOME somewhat prefers CORBA; KDE prefers DCOP. These may not communicate with X; that's the closest we get to something that isn't an "application running atop X." You don't have to take my word for any of this; just look at the "Developer's View" diagram. The only part that diagram shows that is at all "extra" to my description is KParts, which, just like GNOME "Bonobo," is a way of implementing parts of applications as embeddable widgets. Which still leaves it all as a set of applications that invoke a bunch of libraries that all run atop X. The emperor has no clothing; they are nothing more or less than a set of X applications. If you call it more, then you are fooling yourself into thinking there's something truly special there. The things that are _nearest_ to being "special" are the 'component architecture' parts, but even that is something that dates back to the Fresco system that came after InterViews, back before Motif was created. Hardly anyone can remember that far back. (Henry probably remembers further :-).) -- let name="cbbrowne" and tld="ntlug.org" in String.concat "@" [name;tld];; http://www.ntlug.org/~cbbrowne/postgresql.html "Linux is not ready for the Enterprise. There is not a single voice-controlled app for any of the mission critical functions of the Enterprise. Conspicuously absent are warp core control, phaser bank activation, interstellar navigation, transporter operation, and the all-important self-destruct sequence. Until these and thousands of other important apps are written and deployed, Linux will just be a toy in the Enterprise." -- Kevin Novak, Network Computing Magazine -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 4 04:19:31 2003 From: fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Fraser Campbell) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 23:19:31 -0500 Subject: Red Hat In-Reply-To: <000101c3a23d$d8253e10$6401a8c0-UxDKcUsq0RM@public.gmane.org> References: <000101c3a23d$d8253e10$6401a8c0@main> Message-ID: <200311032319.31161.fraser@wehave.net> On November 3, 2003 02:08 pm, Sidney Shapiro wrote: > What does it mean that Red Hat says it will be discontinuing Red Hat > Linux? It means they aren't interested in working with hobbyists and people who don't want to fork over handfuls of cash. 179 USD is a little steep for my tastes anyway. > I am currently using red hat, and love it. Will red hat users be > moving to something else? Sure, they'll be moving to Debian/Gentoo/whoknowswhat. -- Fraser Campbell http://www.wehave.net/ Georgetown, Ontario, Canada Debian GNU/Linux -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 4 04:36:05 2003 From: fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Fraser Campbell) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 23:36:05 -0500 Subject: OpenOffice.org Performance In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20031103103254.0584f008-bi+AKbBUZKZeoWH0uzbU5w@public.gmane.org> References: <3FA514BB.4020306@rogers.com> <5.2.0.9.0.20031103103254.0584f008@localhost> Message-ID: <200311032336.05248.fraser@wehave.net> On November 3, 2003 10:37 am, CLIFFORD ILKAY wrote: > MS Word: 3 seconds I suspect that half of the suite is loaded before you even click, same trick they use with Explorer. > OpenOffice Write: 16 seconds Open it repeatedly. On my athlon (1477Mhz) repeated loads of oowriter )both versions 1.0.3 1.1beta2) occur in less than 4 seconds ... by load I mean loads completely, to the point where you can begin typing. -- Fraser Campbell http://www.wehave.net/ Georgetown, Ontario, Canada Debian GNU/Linux -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From c.f.a.johnson-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 4 09:00:08 2003 From: c.f.a.johnson-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Chris F.A. Johnson) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 04:00:08 -0500 (EST) Subject: /etc/hosts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 14 Aug 2003, Max Blanco wrote: > > Hi All, > > I have an unconnected local subnet. > I have one machine on it so far. > I wonder what will be the effect if I have two entries in the /etc/hosts > file for the same machine? > > 192.168.1.9 johannes johaness.blanco.org > 192.168.1.9 geeklog geeklog.net > > Is this kosher? > resolveip seems to find both entries. $ tr ' ' '\t' < /etc/hosts | cut -f1 | sort | uniq -c 151 103 # 1 ## 1 ##0.0.0.0 2 #*********************************************** 13211 0.0.0.0 I guess it's OK! :) (That's 13,211 names of sources of nothing but ads.) 1 127.0.0.1 1 192.168.0.1 1 192.168.0.100 1 192.168.0.13 1 192.168.0.69 1 192.168.0.77 1 199.71.188.0 1 199.71.188.16 1 199.71.188.17 1 199.71.188.18 1 199.71.188.19 1 199.71.188.20 1 199.71.188.21 1 199.71.188.22 1 199.71.188.23 1 199.71.188.24 1 199.71.188.28 1 207.202.214.130 1 207.202.214.131 -- Chris F.A. Johnson ================================================================= cfaj-uVmiyxGBW52XDw4h08c5KA at public.gmane.org http://cfaj.freeshell.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 4 11:45:33 2003 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 06:45:33 -0500 Subject: Samba and French accents In-Reply-To: <3FA713B5.50002-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <64142.207.236.219.129.1067871182.squirrel@www.lijour.net> <3FA6E6D6.8080600@rogers.com> <3FA713B5.50002@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <3FA7915D.8040306@rogers.com> Stewart C. Russell wrote: > Byron Sonne wrote: > >> I have your solution! Print this picture out and tape it to the front >> of the case > > > um, but Poirot was supposed to be Belgian. Close enough. ;-) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From sidney-3Kd7Tu4o6f/sBN0MCq728g at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 4 12:30:37 2003 From: sidney-3Kd7Tu4o6f/sBN0MCq728g at public.gmane.org (Sidney Shapiro) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 07:30:37 -0500 Subject: Lycoris [Was: Windows refund: stymied] In-Reply-To: <005701c372fe$d73e7480$6401a8c0-UxDKcUsq0RM@public.gmane.org> References: <005701c372fe$d73e7480$6401a8c0@main> Message-ID: <006101c3a2cf$77082ba0$6401a8c0@main> > I took a look at http://www.nongnu.org/synaptic/index.html, is there a > program which does this kind of thing in text mode for RH 7.3? Also, as > an aside, is it possible to change the account my server uses for > up2date? The sysadmin registered it, but I don't know the password and > now can not check for updates. > > Sid > -- This is bizarre. I noticed this post this morning from my hotmail account, and as I did not write this recently, was supprised to see a post from myself. I checked the date I sent it from my hotmail account, and found that I sent this email over a month ago. Is it normal for email to not show up for a month?! Sid -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From hughreilly1-PkbjNfxxIARBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 4 14:33:54 2003 From: hughreilly1-PkbjNfxxIARBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Hugh Reilly) Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 09:33:54 -0500 Subject: Lycoris [Was: Windows refund: stymied] Message-ID: >From: "Sidney Shapiro" >Reply-To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org >To: >Subject: RE: [TLUG]: Lycoris [Was: Windows refund: stymied] >Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 07:30:37 -0500 >This is bizarre. I noticed this post this morning from my hotmail >account, and as I did not write this recently, was supprised to see a >post from myself. I checked the date I sent it from my hotmail account, >and found that I sent this email over a month ago. Is it normal for >email to not show up for a month?! This happened to me too! I know I could have saved time if I just sent the email directly to myself (thanks Marc!), I now suspect that Bill may be reading our hotmail TLUG emails! -Hugh _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/bcomm&pgmarket=en-ca&RU=http%3a%2f%2fjoin.msn.com%2f%3fpage%3dmisc%2fspecialoffers%26pgmarket%3den-ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 4 09:04:11 2003 From: davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (David J Patrick) Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 10:04:11 +0100 Subject: MARKEM Network Services - BOUNCE Message-ID: <3FA76B8B.7010004@sympatico.ca> In response to a TLUG thread, that I've dangling from, I got a BOUNCE notice; Subject: Re: [TLUG]: SOS; apt-get dist-updrade mashes modules Your e-mail was undeliverable due to content inappropriate for a business message. Please review the content of this message or attachment before re-sending or telephone your business contact. This communication was sent from a non-monitored alias. Please do not reply. If you have questions concerning this communication please contact your MARKEM business partner for assistance. MARKEM Network Services --------------------- Who the hell is screening my mail for "content inappropriate for a business message" ?? Who the hell is MARKEM Network Services and what makes them think I have a business partner ? Is this just SPAM ? Should I be surprised to find it following a TLUG thread ? ..should I wrap my head in tin foil ? ..what was that noise .. ? :-0 djp -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jason-gaRZxGPHtpBxZtjKW1aY+1aTQe2KTcn/ at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 4 15:09:58 2003 From: jason-gaRZxGPHtpBxZtjKW1aY+1aTQe2KTcn/ at public.gmane.org (Jason Shein) Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 10:09:58 -0500 Subject: Novell Announces Agreement to Acquire Suse Linux Message-ID: <3FA7C146.2010301@pcsecurityonline.com> In the news this morning Novell Announces Agreement to Acquire Leading Enterprise Linux Technology Company SUSE LINUX http://www.novell.com/news/press/archive/2003/11/pr03069.html -- " Eventually people tire of repairing broken Windows, And decide to replace them with something stronger" (o_ //\ Linux - The Choice Of A GNU Generation V_/_ Jason Shein Linux Registered User #281100 jason-gaRZxGPHtpBxZtjKW1aY+1aTQe2KTcn/@public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 4 15:12:40 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 10:12:40 -0500 Subject: Novell Buys Suse Message-ID: <20031104101240.730a4474.joehill@sympatico.ca> Novell to MS: it's payback time! LOL! http://zdnet.com.com/2100-1104_2-5101680.html Puts a new wrinkle in the SCO case too, apparently. -- JoeHill Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Death is only a state of mind. Only it doesn't leave you much time to think about anything else. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 4 15:13:08 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 10:13:08 -0500 Subject: Novell Announces Agreement to Acquire Suse Linux In-Reply-To: <3FA7C146.2010301-gaRZxGPHtpBxZtjKW1aY+1aTQe2KTcn/@public.gmane.org> References: <3FA7C146.2010301@pcsecurityonline.com> Message-ID: <20031104101308.0350eec4.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Tue, 04 Nov 2003 10:09:58 -0500 Jason Shein uttered: > In the news this morning > > Novell Announces Agreement to Acquire Leading Enterprise Linux > Technology Company SUSE LINUX > > http://www.novell.com/news/press/archive/2003/11/pr03069.html ach, ya beat me to it! -- JoeHill Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ If little green men land in your back yard, hide any little green women you've got in the house. -- Mike Harding, "The Armchair Anarchist's Almanac" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 4 15:22:25 2003 From: fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Fraser Campbell) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 10:22:25 -0500 Subject: MARKEM Network Services - BOUNCE In-Reply-To: <3FA76B8B.7010004-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FA76B8B.7010004@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <200311041022.25742.fraser@wehave.net> On November 4, 2003 04:04 am, David J Patrick wrote: > Is this just SPAM ? Should I be surprised to find it following a TLUG > thread ? ..should I wrap my head in tin foil ? > ..what was that noise .. ? :-0 My opinion is that it is spam. To me viruses, virus alerts, autoreplies and trash like this are no different than classic spam (Nigeria, Viagra, porn, whatever). Their intent was probably not to spam, I suspect they just have an incredibly simplistic content filter in their email system and that a user there subscribes to TLUG. I emailed abuse@ and postmaster@ that domain to let them know and asked them to fix the problem. They're running Eudora Internet Mail Server 3.2.2, hadn't heard of that. I believe my bounce came from an email where I mentioned how long Openoffice takes to load. I can't fathom how it could be construed as "inappropriate for business" ... there's nothing particularly appropriate to business but how a machine could determine it to be inappropriate is beyond me. Of course whatever software (or person) bounced the message was too stupid to quote the message so that a person could actually followup with a less offensive message, I just have to guess what bounced by the subject line. -- Fraser Campbell http://www.wehave.net/ Georgetown, Ontario, Canada Debian GNU/Linux -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 4 09:29:07 2003 From: davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (David J Patrick) Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 10:29:07 +0100 Subject: MARKEM Network Services - BOUNCE In-Reply-To: <3FA76B8B.7010004-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FA76B8B.7010004@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <3FA77163.3000203@sympatico.ca> do ya think it would have anything to do with the phrase "anal probe" that was in my original post ? (sheesh ! that's a _medical_ term ;-) I'm gonna cut some eyeholes in the tin foil and get ON with it ! djp -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 4 15:47:34 2003 From: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 10:47:34 -0500 (EST) Subject: after Linux, what? in place of Hurd, Eros, Brazil,...? In-Reply-To: <20031102224020.GD6244-DPTsmTRGv3o@public.gmane.org> References: <20031029214601.GB2221@interlog.com> <20031101235648.900AE4092@cbbrowne.com> <20031102224020.GD6244@m433> Message-ID: On Sun, 2 Nov 2003, Walter Dnes wrote: [discussion was speed of Debian releases] > AAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHH NNNNNNNNNOOOOOOO!!!!!!! :) > ..then I suggest Redhat, which is dropping support for 7.1, 7.2, 7.3, > and 8.0 in less than 2 months. RH9 gets dropped in April 2004. Some of > us actually prefer to *USE* our computers rather than install new OS > versions every few months. I think there is a happy medium. RH certainly has problem with their release cycle imho (x.0 versions certainly had a reputation for being buggy) but IMHO Debian can be a tad slow - the Stable release cycle is currently around 2 years. I'd like to see it reduced to 1 year. I'd also like to see the kernel cycle reduced. I argue that with shorter development, freeze & release cycles the overall workload is reduced because overall complexity of each cycle is reduced. Debian's ability to smoothly dist-upgrade (upgrade between major versions and have it actually work) reduces the need to reinstall boxes too. I still backup before a dist-upgrade though :) Rob -- Robert Brockway B.Sc. email: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org, zzbrock at uqconnect.net Linux counter project ID #16440 (http://counter.li.org) "The earth is but one country and mankind its citizens" -Baha'u'llah -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 4 15:49:50 2003 From: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 10:49:50 -0500 (EST) Subject: after Linux, what? in place of Hurd, Eros, Brazil,...? In-Reply-To: <3FA530E9.40108-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <20031029214601.GB2221@interlog.com> <20031101235648.900AE4092@cbbrowne.com> <3FA530E9.40108@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: On Sun, 2 Nov 2003, Stewart C. Russell wrote: > If you're wanting for humour, pop down to a UnixUnanimous I'm going to be visiting this group actually :) > () meeting, and mention you Linux, and > worse still, Perl. Then run ... Fortunately I also admin Solaris which _might_ give me some cred. Ok, probably not ;) > > Definately. I could envision a situation in which Debian ends up the > > vanguard of Linux simply because it is beyond being bought out. > > Aren't the aims of Gentoo similar? > (a Gentoo user asks) >From the little I know of Gentoo I'd say yes. I'm just not sure it'll grow in popularity to the level Debian has (but it may well do just that). Cheers, Rob -- Robert Brockway B.Sc. email: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org, zzbrock at uqconnect.net Linux counter project ID #16440 (http://counter.li.org) "The earth is but one country and mankind its citizens" -Baha'u'llah -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 4 11:04:47 2003 From: davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (David J Patrick) Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 12:04:47 +0100 Subject: debian reinstall Message-ID: <3FA787CF.3090904@sympatico.ca> Since I have been unable to repair my botched debian unstable/testing system (see recent "apt-get problem" and "SOS; apt-get dist-updrade mashes modules" threads) I am facing (yet another) OS reinstall. It's kind of annoying, as I have spent a lot of time adding to, and tweaking, this last install. I guess it's a symptom of the complexity of the OS and/or the simplicity of the sysadmin (me) that when things go really wrong I have no choice but /start again/. This time I won't use knoppix as my debian starter; I looking at Bonzai-2.1. It's a Woody installer, but I hope it will be easy to get it back up to Sid. The biggest hurdle is usually the migration of my /home/djp/ directory. It's on a separate partition, but I have found, in the past, that leftovers from the previous install (/home/djp/.whatever files) can screw things up nicely. So, If you have any other suggestions for me regarding a) how to fix my modules problem (see previous posts) or b) the least painfull route to a fresh debian instable reinstall let me know ! I'm going to start nuking stuff this evening. thanks, djp -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 4 17:21:28 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 12:21:28 -0500 Subject: debian reinstall In-Reply-To: <3FA787CF.3090904-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FA787CF.3090904@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <20031104122128.6d1e0834.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Tue, 04 Nov 2003 12:04:47 +0100 David J Patrick uttered: > that leftovers from the previous install (/home/djp/.whatever > files) can screw things up nicely. > So, > If you have any other suggestions for me regarding > a) how to fix my modules problem (see previous posts) > or > b) the least painfull route to a fresh debian instable reinstall > let me know ! I'm going to start nuking stuff this evening. > thanks, AFAIK, only user related stuff is going to be stored in ~/. files, like application prefs, mail, stuff like that. Any system or global configs are stored elsewhere, such as package management info, shared object databases, (particularly the /etc and /usr dirs) etc. So I would say it's safe to leave the /home partition alone and install a new system in a fresh / partition. This is how I've always gone about it and never encountered any probs. -- JoeHill Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Sometimes even to live is an act of courage. -- Seneca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 4 17:29:02 2003 From: fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Fraser Campbell) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 12:29:02 -0500 Subject: debian reinstall In-Reply-To: <3FA787CF.3090904-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FA787CF.3090904@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <200311041229.02730.fraser@wehave.net> On November 4, 2003 06:04 am, David J Patrick wrote: > b) the least painfull route to a fresh debian instable reinstall > let me know ! I'm going to start nuking stuff this evening. That question depends so much on your knowledge of Linux + your hardware that it's tough to answer. I did an install a week ago of the testing distribution using the new debian-installer. It was buggy and you need to be somewhat knowledgeable but it got the job done and was reasonably fast. The debian-installer builds break from day-to-day so you may not be able to find a working installer. My usual method for installing Debian is to use a net-install CD (about 180MB I think), that's plenty to install a basic system and from there I apt-get everything I need (whether, or not, I am upgrading to unstable afterwards). The net-install CD uses the regular Debian installer though. Bonzai I haven't tried. It seems to be the same idea as minideb that was created at the Clue Linux Centre a few years ago ... a small, configured, almost self-installing Debian. It should be fairly easy to install Bonzai and then upgrade it to unstable ... I've never tried it, if you do please submit an install report here ;-) -- Fraser Campbell http://www.wehave.net/ Georgetown, Ontario, Canada Debian GNU/Linux -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jason-gaRZxGPHtpBxZtjKW1aY+1aTQe2KTcn/ at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 4 17:49:27 2003 From: jason-gaRZxGPHtpBxZtjKW1aY+1aTQe2KTcn/ at public.gmane.org (Jason Shein) Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 12:49:27 -0500 Subject: MARKEM Network Services - BOUNCE In-Reply-To: <200311041022.25742.fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FA76B8B.7010004@sympatico.ca> <200311041022.25742.fraser@wehave.net> Message-ID: <3FA7E6A7.5010203@pcsecurityonline.com> Fraser Campbell wrote: > On November 4, 2003 04:04 am, David J Patrick wrote: > > >>Is this just SPAM ? Should I be surprised to find it following a TLUG >>thread ? ..should I wrap my head in tin foil ? >> ..what was that noise .. ? :-0 > > > My opinion is that it is spam. To me viruses, virus alerts, autoreplies and > trash like this are no different than classic spam (Nigeria, Viagra, porn, > whatever). > > Their intent was probably not to spam, I suspect they just have an incredibly > simplistic content filter in their email system and that a user there > subscribes to TLUG. > > I emailed abuse@ and postmaster@ that domain to let them know and asked them > to fix the problem. They're running Eudora Internet Mail Server 3.2.2, > hadn't heard of that. > > I believe my bounce came from an email where I mentioned how long Openoffice > takes to load. I can't fathom how it could be construed as "inappropriate > for business" ... there's nothing particularly appropriate to business but > how a machine could determine it to be inappropriate is beyond me. Of course > whatever software (or person) bounced the message was too stupid to quote the > message so that a person could actually followup with a less offensive > message, I just have to guess what bounced by the subject line. > Oh that is an easy one. -snip- "I believe my bounce came from an email where I mentioned how long Openoffice takes to load. I can't fathom how it could be construed as "inappropriate for business"" -snip- It mentions an alternative application to a Microsoft product. Remember, "open source is for hackers. Respectable people pay for their products", or so numerous people I have come into contact with believe. :S -- " Eventually people tire of repairing broken Windows, And decide to replace them with something stronger" (o_ //\ Linux - The Choice Of A GNU Generation V_/_ Jason Shein Linux Registered User #281100 jason-gaRZxGPHtpBxZtjKW1aY+1aTQe2KTcn/@public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 4 18:08:27 2003 From: davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (David J Patrick) Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 13:08:27 -0500 Subject: debian reinstall - AVERTED ! for now.. In-Reply-To: <3FA787CF.3090904-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FA787CF.3090904@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <3FA7EB1B.2000803@sympatico.ca> MAN that was close ! As a last ditch I opened a dozen terminals and pored over "man module" anything. then I went looking for weird files. In /etc/modutils I found a file "alsa" that listed /lib/modules/extra/ - A NON EXISTANT DIRECTORY that is listed in scores of recent error messages. I also found "alsa-knoppix-09" that (if I removed knx-alsa) should not exist. I bumped both files to /tmp/ and ran update-modules. Now, I'm not really sure what I'm doing, and alsa is sooo broken, but I happy to report that boot-linux was _not_ required to post this ! ethernet card WORKING (helloo sympatico) serial port WORKING (yay palm sync) CDroms WORKING sound BUSTED (and yet, I'm happY ) OK, What system wide backup software would you recomend ? (considering Hdup and mondo) Do you have any suggestions to massage my modules to molify my music making modes ? Thanks for all your suggestions, djp -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From emir-rdkfGonbjUTTQjIoRn/dzw at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 4 18:47:05 2003 From: emir-rdkfGonbjUTTQjIoRn/dzw at public.gmane.org (Emir) Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 13:47:05 -0500 Subject: POLL: How many people on this list do not read industry news sites? Message-ID: <3FA7F429.30308@codemonkeys.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 You don't really have to answer. I just want to know if people think this list is a sloppy, late news feed, or a discussion medium. Hint: if you don't have an insightful personal commentary on a current well-publicized news item, there's no need to post links to stories that most people (who actually care about the topic) would have read, in a much better format, on their favorite news site. And no, typical knee-jerk /. style Lunix (not a typo) quips are not considered an insightful personal commentary. - -- Emir. "In the end they will lay their freedom at our feet and say to us: ~ 'Make us your slaves, but feed us.'" -- Fyodor Dostoevsky -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQE/p/QpuSy542G+Z7QRAlkYAKCBbu+qorXVbw9ck7pLaU1SUyMzPQCbBl7h 8W69Gf4tuh0iSrQsE6YOA8M= =/G/s -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From skuznets-WRMZ5ucGVl4BXFe83j6qeQ at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 4 19:11:34 2003 From: skuznets-WRMZ5ucGVl4BXFe83j6qeQ at public.gmane.org (Sergey Kuznetsov) Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 14:11:34 -0500 Subject: POLL: How many people on this list do not read industry news sites? In-Reply-To: <3FA7F429.30308-rdkfGonbjUTTQjIoRn/dzw@public.gmane.org> References: <3FA7F429.30308@codemonkeys.org> Message-ID: <200311041411.34285.skuznets@blueprint.org> On November 4, 2003 01:47 pm, Emir wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > You don't really have to answer. I just want to know if people think this > list is a sloppy, late news feed, or a discussion medium. I am not. I just have no time for it. I would rather spend my free time for some opensource project or to inspect the linux kernel code for some new features. I just take breef look for some (but not all of them) topics on this mailing list. -- All the Best! ----------------- Sergey Kuznetsov Senior Software Developer Blueprint Initiative Samuel Lunenfeld Research Institute at Mount Sinai Hospital -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From kru_tch-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 4 19:01:27 2003 From: kru_tch-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (Stephen Allen) Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 14:01:27 -0500 Subject: POLL: How many people on this list do not read industry news sites? In-Reply-To: <3FA7F429.30308-rdkfGonbjUTTQjIoRn/dzw@public.gmane.org> References: <3FA7F429.30308@codemonkeys.org> Message-ID: <3FA7F787.2060401@yahoo.ca> Emir wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > You don't really have to answer. I just want to know if people think this > list is a sloppy, late news feed, or a discussion medium. So people shouldn't post a relevant Linux link in order to prompt/start a discussion? Too much Emir, my little codemonkey. Must be bored baiting newbies eh? BTW, is it really necessary to post encrypted/signed e-mail to an e-mail list? :P -- Best Regards, Steve -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From emir-rdkfGonbjUTTQjIoRn/dzw at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 4 19:18:30 2003 From: emir-rdkfGonbjUTTQjIoRn/dzw at public.gmane.org (Emir) Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 14:18:30 -0500 Subject: POLL: How many people on this list do not read industry news sites? In-Reply-To: <3FA7F787.2060401-FFYn/CNdgSA@public.gmane.org> References: <3FA7F429.30308@codemonkeys.org> <3FA7F787.2060401@yahoo.ca> Message-ID: <3FA7FB86.9030105@codemonkeys.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 04/11/2003 14:01, Stephen Allen wrote: | So people shouldn't post a relevant Linux link in order to prompt/start a | discussion? Too much Emir, my little codemonkey. Must be bored baiting newbies eh? Where is the discussion? If you want a discussion, start by posting a personal take, a commentary. Link to a story that everyone (who actually cares) and their dog (and dog's flees (and flees' virii)) have read is not a start to a meaningful discussion. I was once told that throwing cheap shots is a sign of an intellectually-inferior mind that is unable to argue the issue on its merits and instead resorts to ad hominem attacks to further their point. You obviously don't subscribe to that view. | BTW, is it really necessary to post encrypted/signed e-mail to an e-mail list? Is it really necessary to explain the benefits of encrypted/signed e-mail? - -- Emir. "In the end they will lay their freedom at our feet and say to us: ~ 'Make us your slaves, but feed us.'" -- Fyodor Dostoevsky -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQE/p/uGuSy542G+Z7QRAgY5AJwMPgty5/8Kvm0yuKCCCrB6VOW2kwCfbiGU ZME5g+7XKIHGVil46i+wZaU= =NKxg -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From kru_tch-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 4 19:29:47 2003 From: kru_tch-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (Stephen Allen) Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 14:29:47 -0500 Subject: POLL: How many people on this list do not read industry news sites? In-Reply-To: <3FA7FB86.9030105-rdkfGonbjUTTQjIoRn/dzw@public.gmane.org> References: <3FA7F429.30308@codemonkeys.org> <3FA7F787.2060401@yahoo.ca> <3FA7FB86.9030105@codemonkeys.org> Message-ID: <3FA7FE2B.1010001@yahoo.ca> Emir wrote: > On 04/11/2003 14:01, Stephen Allen wrote: > > | So people shouldn't post a relevant Linux link in order to prompt/start a > | discussion? Too much Emir, my little codemonkey. Must be bored baiting > newbies eh? > > Where is the discussion? If you want a discussion, start by posting a > personal take, a commentary. Link to a story that everyone (who actually > cares) and their dog (and dog's flees (and flees' virii)) have read is > not a > start to a meaningful discussion. Right here. > I was once told that throwing cheap shots is a sign of an > intellectually-inferior mind that is unable to argue the issue on its > merits > and instead resorts to ad hominem attacks to further their point. Hm, I thought it was rather relevant. > You obviously don't subscribe to that view. Not at another, whom has in the past delivered their own cheapshots. > | BTW, is it really necessary to post encrypted/signed e-mail to an > e-mail list? > > Is it really necessary to explain the benefits of encrypted/signed e-mail? Pray tell what are they on a public e-mail list? Do we really need to have it verified, you are whom you say you are? I guess there are folks waiting in the wings, just licking their chops at the opportunity, to spoof a from, with your nick on it, to our little corner of the world. :o) -- Best Regards, Steve -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 4 19:37:04 2003 From: fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Fraser Campbell) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 14:37:04 -0500 Subject: POLL: How many people on this list do not read industry news sites? In-Reply-To: <3FA7FE2B.1010001-FFYn/CNdgSA@public.gmane.org> References: <3FA7F429.30308@codemonkeys.org> <3FA7FB86.9030105@codemonkeys.org> <3FA7FE2B.1010001@yahoo.ca> Message-ID: <200311041437.04987.fraser@wehave.net> On November 4, 2003 02:29 pm, Stephen Allen wrote: > Pray tell what are they on a public e-mail list? Do we really need to have > it verified, you are whom you say you are? I guess there are folks waiting > in the wings, just licking their chops at the opportunity, to spoof a from, > with your nick on it, to our little corner of the world I see no problem with signing emails, I'd do it myself except for sheer laziness. -- Fraser Campbell http://www.wehave.net/ Georgetown, Ontario, Canada Debian GNU/Linux -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lloyd-fEEwcc3XMu8jODpR/OX0VQ at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 4 20:42:25 2003 From: lloyd-fEEwcc3XMu8jODpR/OX0VQ at public.gmane.org (lloyd-fEEwcc3XMu8jODpR/OX0VQ at public.gmane.org) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 15:42:25 -0500 (EST) Subject: Signing email In-Reply-To: <3FA7FE2B.1010001-FFYn/CNdgSA@public.gmane.org> References: <3FA7F429.30308@codemonkeys.org> <3FA7F787.2060401@yahoo.ca> <3FA7FB86.9030105@codemonkeys.org> <3FA7FE2B.1010001@yahoo.ca> Message-ID: <63293.129.42.208.182.1067978545.squirrel@www.foolswisdom.com> >> Is it really necessary to explain the benefits of encrypted/signed >> e-mail? > > Pray tell what are they on a public e-mail list? Do we really need to > have it verified, you are whom you say you are? I guess there are folks > waiting in the wings, just licking their chops at the opportunity, to > spoof a from, with your nick on it, to our little corner of the world. > :o) Doing a tiny bit of reseach on this topic, one position -- not the only one -- is that the only way that encrypted/signed emails are affective if many people use them, regardless of why and where. It is common on many techie "public email lists". What is your concern with it Steve? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 4 19:42:57 2003 From: phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org (Peter Hiscocks) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 14:42:57 -0500 Subject: POLL: How many people on this list do not read industry news sites? In-Reply-To: <3FA7F429.30308-rdkfGonbjUTTQjIoRn/dzw@public.gmane.org>; from emir-rdkfGonbjUTTQjIoRn/dzw@public.gmane.org on Tue, Nov 04, 2003 at 01:47:05PM -0500 References: <3FA7F429.30308@codemonkeys.org> Message-ID: <20031104144257.A17098@ee.ryerson.ca> I like it the way it is: an eclectic mix of news items, questions and geek humour (quips). Peter On Tue, Nov 04, 2003 at 01:47:05PM -0500, Emir wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > You don't really have to answer. I just want to know if people think this > list is a sloppy, late news feed, or a discussion medium. > > Hint: if you don't have an insightful personal commentary on a current > well-publicized news item, there's no need to post links to stories that most > people (who actually care about the topic) would have read, in a much better > format, on their favorite news site. > > And no, typical knee-jerk /. style Lunix (not a typo) quips are not considered > an insightful personal commentary. > - -- > Emir. > > "In the end they will lay their freedom at our feet and say to us: > ~ 'Make us your slaves, but feed us.'" -- Fyodor Dostoevsky > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (MingW32) > Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org > > iD8DBQE/p/QpuSy542G+Z7QRAlkYAKCBbu+qorXVbw9ck7pLaU1SUyMzPQCbBl7h > 8W69Gf4tuh0iSrQsE6YOA8M= > =/G/s > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- Peter D. Hiscocks Department of Electrical and Computer Engineering Ryerson University, 350 Victoria Street, Toronto, Ontario, M5B 2K3, Canada Phone: (416) 979-5000 Ext 6109 Fax: (416) 979-5280 Email: phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org URL: http://www.ee.ryerson.ca/~phiscock -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jzygmont-tEQKYFGiemxAYG7eUwYNkWD2FQJk+8+b at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 4 19:49:52 2003 From: jzygmont-tEQKYFGiemxAYG7eUwYNkWD2FQJk+8+b at public.gmane.org (Justin Zygmont) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 14:49:52 -0500 (EST) Subject: SCO has valid case In-Reply-To: <20030823155422.31987.qmail-fSq+MfIEYvED+VeP4Ct4bw@public.gmane.org> References: <20030823155422.31987.qmail@wm0.netfirms.com> Message-ID: the whole thing is just a letigatal mess, and it's just going to get worse. After what happened with the DR-DOS lawsuit, i'd say it's looking a lot like the same thing. Too bad its going to be dragging on and on for years. On 23 Aug 2003, Rick Tomaschuk wrote: > At the briefing SCO claimed copyright and trademark ownership of the > UNIX name. As for ties to Microsoft going back many years SCO referred > to these claims as laughable and I would be skeptical of SCO's > involvement and any sort of stock sell off given the fallout from > Enron, Tyco, Martha etc. Unix coming from mixed origins (Berkeley)is > based on confidential agreements and otherwise with AT&T to rewrite code. > > While I may not be 100% right on with every tiny tid-bit since I have > better things to do than filter through every line of every article > ever written on the subject I'm confident in the accuracy of the bulk > of what I'm saying since I've had the opportunity to get answers > directly from SCO's CEO and other CEO's and officers who seem to know > what they are talking about. > > I'm just a low level partner like many others I've met at TLUG > meetings. If you are as informed as you think you are we could have > used you in Las Vegas this week. Why were'nt you there? The trip cost > peanuts compared to the long term value it offered. What on earth is > wrong with a free market? Our whole economy is based on a free market. > The world is moving toward globalization. The GPL is a welcome > addition to our world but we still need to maintain other options. IMHO > > > On Fri, 22 Aug 2003 18:49:51 -0400, Lloyd D Budd > wrote : > > > On Fri, 2003-08-22 at 17:59, Rick Tomaschuk may have wrote: > > > > > > > My understanding is that SCO owns copyrights and trademarks for > > > UNIX SYSTEM V. > > Err...but it is debatable whether they own the trademark to UNIX. IBM > > had a special contractually arrangement with AT&T. The other UNIX(s) > > that IBM bought have not had their agreements released. > > > > > Most other (nearly all) UNIXes are > > > based upon licences from SYSTEM V (AT&T) so SCO is at the root of the > > > UNIX tree. > > Most? Many UNIX seem to be from mixed origin. > > > > It is not clear to me how relevant other item is, but there is a *huge* > > amount of interesting information on the net related to this. > > > > > > > As for reporters and their articles I've read and will continue to > read all I > > > can find. > > Rick, prior to the briefing where you well versed on the information > > available? > > > > I find it difficult to believe that you have read everything that you > > can find. Otherwise, I do not know how you could suggest: > > > MY UNDERSTANDING is that it is not SCO's intention to undermine the > > > Linux effort but rather to survive as a "for profit" company in a free > > > market. > > > > profit> some have suggested that there has been stock sell off of > > interesting quantity > > > > free market> cringe > > > > > > If you are genuinely interested, it appears there is a lot of material > > available that you might not have read thoroughly. slashdot is a good > > place to start as they provide links to pretty much all of the articles > > I was aware of before I got bored of the topic after many, many articles > > over many, many days, > > Lloyd > > > > > > P.S. This is unlikely be resolved any year soon. > > > > -- > > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > > > > > > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From emir-rdkfGonbjUTTQjIoRn/dzw at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 4 19:53:51 2003 From: emir-rdkfGonbjUTTQjIoRn/dzw at public.gmane.org (Emir) Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 14:53:51 -0500 Subject: POLL: How many people on this list do not read industry news sites? In-Reply-To: <3FA7FE2B.1010001-FFYn/CNdgSA@public.gmane.org> References: <3FA7F429.30308@codemonkeys.org> <3FA7F787.2060401@yahoo.ca> <3FA7FB86.9030105@codemonkeys.org> <3FA7FE2B.1010001@yahoo.ca> Message-ID: <3FA803CF.80204@codemonkeys.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 04/11/2003 14:29, Stephen Allen wrote: |>Where is the discussion? If you want a discussion, start by posting a |>personal take, a commentary. Link to a story that everyone (who actually |>cares) and their dog (and dog's flees (and flees' virii)) have read is |>not a |>start to a meaningful discussion. | | | Right here. I'm sorry, I must've missed the lively, insightful, constructive discussion on the two threads started on the Novell/SuSE merger story. After all, it's been 3 hours since it was posted, and the story is burning hot, queues of posters waiting for their turn to chime in, 2 threads started to make sure there is sufficient capacity for all to partake... ...all the while Santa is on the Comoros Islands, making out with the Tooth Fairy. |>I was once told that throwing cheap shots is a sign of an |>intellectually-inferior mind that is unable to argue the issue on its |>merits |>and instead resorts to ad hominem attacks to further their point. | | | Hm, I thought it was rather relevant. How so? Please, do elaborate. Discussion, remember... |>You obviously don't subscribe to that view. | | | Not at another, whom has in the past delivered their own cheapshots. I'm at a loss here, I have no clue whatsoever are you trying to communicate here. Did little Bobby fall down the abandoned mine shaft? |>| BTW, is it really necessary to post encrypted/signed e-mail to an |>e-mail list? |> |>Is it really necessary to explain the benefits of encrypted/signed e-mail? | | | Pray tell what are they on a public e-mail list? Do we really need to have it | verified, you are whom you say you are? I guess there are folks waiting in the | wings, just licking their chops at the opportunity, to spoof a from, with your | nick on it, to our little corner of the world. | :o) And the only people who are pro-privacy are criminals and terrorists because they have something to hide, right? Really, why *do* you find my GPG-signed message so offensive? - -- Emir. "In the end they will lay their freedom at our feet and say to us: ~ 'Make us your slaves, but feed us.'" -- Fyodor Dostoevsky -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQE/qAPPuSy542G+Z7QRAsQ8AJ9sR+l0Ci22r12eOTSNFIlWfIJbrwCgkB4W cEDAtgN62nu9buWq+aH8BL0= =9A80 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jzygmont-tEQKYFGiemxAYG7eUwYNkWD2FQJk+8+b at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 4 19:59:46 2003 From: jzygmont-tEQKYFGiemxAYG7eUwYNkWD2FQJk+8+b at public.gmane.org (Justin Zygmont) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 14:59:46 -0500 (EST) Subject: Novell Buys Suse In-Reply-To: <20031104101240.730a4474.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <20031104101240.730a4474.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: haha, and maybe if they decide to finally open source suse, then redhat may have more of a competitor if Fedora is a catastrophy. On Tue, 4 Nov 2003, JoeHill wrote: > > Novell to MS: it's payback time! LOL! > > http://zdnet.com.com/2100-1104_2-5101680.html > > Puts a new wrinkle in the SCO case too, apparently. > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lloyd-fEEwcc3XMu8jODpR/OX0VQ at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 4 21:05:09 2003 From: lloyd-fEEwcc3XMu8jODpR/OX0VQ at public.gmane.org (lloyd-fEEwcc3XMu8jODpR/OX0VQ at public.gmane.org) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 16:05:09 -0500 (EST) Subject: POLL: How many people on this list do not read industry news sites? In-Reply-To: <3FA7F429.30308-rdkfGonbjUTTQjIoRn/dzw@public.gmane.org> References: <3FA7F429.30308@codemonkeys.org> Message-ID: <36167.129.42.208.182.1067979909.squirrel@www.foolswisdom.com> > think this list is a sloppy, late news feed, or a discussion medium[?] I find it to be a very good discussion medium. I have been figuratively biting me tongue lately because of: * Thread stealing, good netiquette is: - if you change the topic, start a new thread - if you change the topic, but it still very related, just change the subject * MLP (Mindless Link Propagation) * Some people posting "me too" responses, sometimes responding to many thread without adding to the discussion -- of course this is subjective. I appreciate how this makes the list feel friendly, but it may be a bit much. Cheers, Lloyd -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 4 20:13:05 2003 From: henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org (Henry Spencer) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 15:13:05 -0500 (EST) Subject: POLL: How many people on this list do not read industry news sites? In-Reply-To: <3FA7F429.30308-rdkfGonbjUTTQjIoRn/dzw@public.gmane.org> References: <3FA7F429.30308@codemonkeys.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 4 Nov 2003, Emir wrote: > ...there's no need to post links to stories that most > people (who actually care about the topic) would have read, in a much better > format, on their favorite news site. Anyone who has time to have a "favorite news site" clearly doesn't have enough real work to do. :-) I, for one, appreciate pointers to particularly-relevant news. Henry Spencer henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 4 20:32:28 2003 From: fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Fraser Campbell) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 15:32:28 -0500 Subject: Novell Buys Suse In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200311041532.28660.fraser@wehave.net> On November 4, 2003 02:59 pm, Justin Zygmont wrote: > haha, and maybe if they decide to finally open source suse, then redhat > may have more of a competitor if Fedora is a catastrophy. Haven't looked at SuSe in years, what parts are not open source? Redhat had me pissed of about a year and a half ago, for all their talk of being open source they implemented a proprietary update mechanism. AFAIK, there is no documentation on the up2date protocol and there is no free up2date server from Redhat (there were a few works in progress to implement one at the time that I looked). Apt on redhat was an easier to use solution anyway as it turned out but at that time I was still under the notion that if I was using redhat I should do things the redhat way ... using apt on redhat at work was the first step to all-out conversion from redhat to Debian anyway, so it worked out well ;-) -- Fraser Campbell http://www.wehave.net/ Georgetown, Ontario, Canada Debian GNU/Linux -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 4 20:37:45 2003 From: cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org (cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org) Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 15:37:45 -0500 Subject: Novell Buys Suse In-Reply-To: Message from Justin Zygmont of "Tue, 04 Nov 2003 14:59:46 EST." References: Message-ID: <20031104203746.13DD644BB@cbbrowne.com> > haha, and maybe if they decide to finally open source suse, then redhat > may have more of a competitor if Fedora is a catastrophy. That seems unlikely to be more than a nonsequitor. -> Red Hat is now moving in the same direction that SuSE went 2-3 years ago when SuSE cast off the notion of having a 'freely available' distribution in favor of having the collection be proprietary and selling it into markets where they are prepared to spend money to buy it. I see NO reason for SuSE to head back to a non-market that Red Hat has chosen to abandon. -> If Fedora turns out to be a catastrophe (quite possible), then the Right Answer is likely to be for people to migrate to Debian and its derivatives. Or perhaps to *BSD. -- (reverse (concatenate 'string "gro.mca" "@" "enworbbc")) http://www.ntlug.org/~cbbrowne/multiplexor.html "Any sufficiently complicated C or Fortran program contains an ad hoc informally-specified bug-ridden slow implementation of half of Common Lisp." -- Philip Greenspun -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From gbell72-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 4 20:31:59 2003 From: gbell72-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (gbell72) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 15:31:59 -0500 (EST) Subject: Novell Buys Suse In-Reply-To: <20031104101240.730a4474.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <20031104101240.730a4474.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: My personal take on this is..anyone that has previously made a stock investment in novell are the only ones going to prosper. This surely is helping suse out on the american side..but how well can they compete with rhat who sell box sets almost dirt cheap? IMO, whoever bought novell stocks when they were in the $2 range and rode it out till they topped today at almost $8.90 a share are the real winners. Garnder On Tue, 4 Nov 2003, JoeHill wrote: > > Novell to MS: it's payback time! LOL! > > http://zdnet.com.com/2100-1104_2-5101680.html > > Puts a new wrinkle in the SCO case too, apparently. > > -- > JoeHill > Registered Linux user #282046 > Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > Death is only a state of mind. > > Only it doesn't leave you much time to think about anything else. > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 4 20:43:29 2003 From: fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Fraser Campbell) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 15:43:29 -0500 Subject: Novell Buys Suse In-Reply-To: References: <20031104101240.730a4474.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <200311041543.29568.fraser@wehave.net> On November 4, 2003 03:31 pm, gbell72 wrote: > helping suse out on the american side..but how well can they compete with > rhat who sell box sets almost dirt cheap? AFAIK Redhat's cheapest product is now 179 USD, I wouldn't call that dirt cheap. -- Fraser Campbell http://www.wehave.net/ Georgetown, Ontario, Canada Debian GNU/Linux -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From anton-F0u+EriZ6ihBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 4 21:36:21 2003 From: anton-F0u+EriZ6ihBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Anton Markov) Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 16:36:21 -0500 Subject: POLL: How many people on this list do not read industry news sites? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3FA81BD5.8050701@truxtar.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Keep posting the news links guys; they are helpful when I have to find articles to summaries for Computer Science class :). Plus, they are interesting to read. Henry Spencer wrote: | On Tue, 4 Nov 2003, Emir wrote: | |>...there's no need to post links to stories that most |>people (who actually care about the topic) would have read, in a much better |>format, on their favorite news site. | | | Anyone who has time to have a "favorite news site" clearly doesn't have | enough real work to do. :-) | | I, for one, appreciate pointers to particularly-relevant news. | | Henry Spencer | henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org | | -- | The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org | TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns | How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml - -- Anton Markov <("anton" + "@" + "truxtar" + "." + "com")> GnuPGP Key fingerprint = 5546 A6E2 1FFB 9BB8 15C3 CE34 46B7 8D93 3AD1 44B4 ~ "The difference between insanity and genius is measured only by success." ~ - Some bad guy from 007 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQE/qBvVRreNkzrRRLQRAsM2AJsE7Djl/wa0P9DQR7lcnEnc6InPIQCeMLrI KeLnm4lm7GyiyCCbusGCqLI= =MRrF -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From aitken-BwLjziHGQLusTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 4 04:16:57 2003 From: aitken-BwLjziHGQLusTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Chris Aitken) Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2003 23:16:57 -0500 Subject: Alternative to GAIM References: <3FA5CCDD.3000004@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <3FA72838.1E907D8A@onlink.net> John Moniz wrote: > Amsn is a good alternative to gaim for anyone having trouble installing > a version of gaim that works with the latest msn protocol. AMSN is very > easy to install and to use - even allows file transfers. The "A" in amsn > is for Alvaro, the Spaniard who built it. The file is adevertised as amsn - rpm, but has a .php extension - I don't know what to do with a .php file... > > > http://sourceforge.net/projects/amsn/ > > John. > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 4 21:45:26 2003 From: fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Fraser Campbell) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 16:45:26 -0500 Subject: Alternative to GAIM In-Reply-To: <3FA72838.1E907D8A-BwLjziHGQLusTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FA5CCDD.3000004@sympatico.ca> <3FA72838.1E907D8A@onlink.net> Message-ID: <200311041645.26903.fraser@wehave.net> On November 3, 2003 11:16 pm, Chris Aitken wrote: > The file is adevertised as amsn - rpm, but has a .php extension - I don't > know what to do with a .php file... Is it an rpm? Run "file file.php", that will tell you if it's actually an RPM or not. Assuming it is an rpm then just install it "rpm -Uvh file.rpm", Linux tools generally don't care about file extensions, file extensions don't generally have magical meanings as in Windows. -- Fraser Campbell http://www.wehave.net/ Georgetown, Ontario, Canada Debian GNU/Linux -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cdasilva-q6EoVN9bke6w5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 4 21:51:05 2003 From: cdasilva-q6EoVN9bke6w5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org (Clive DaSilva) Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 16:51:05 -0500 Subject: Alternative to GAIM In-Reply-To: <3FA72838.1E907D8A-BwLjziHGQLusTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FA5CCDD.3000004@sympatico.ca> <3FA72838.1E907D8A@onlink.net> Message-ID: <3FA81F49.5020801@iprimus.ca> Chris Aitken wrote: >John Moniz wrote: > > > >>Amsn is a good alternative to gaim for anyone having trouble installing >>a version of gaim that works with the latest msn protocol. AMSN is very >>easy to install and to use - even allows file transfers. The "A" in amsn >>is for Alvaro, the Spaniard who built it. >> >> > >The file is adevertised as amsn - rpm, but has a .php extension - I don't >know what to do with a .php file... > > > >>http://sourceforge.net/projects/amsn/ >> >>John. >> >>-- >>The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org >>TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >>How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml >> >> > >-- >The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org >TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > > > > Hmmn Chris I got a tar.gz file from sourceforge or maybe I was re-directed to Freshmeat. I untarred it and the executable - amsn was right there. Didn't have to compile it or anything. Clive -- Clive DaSilva Home Tel: 416-421-2480 Cell: 416-560-8820 Email: cdasilva-q6EoVN9bke6w5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org Mandrake 9.1 Kernel 2.4.21 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From peter.king-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 4 21:52:03 2003 From: peter.king-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Peter King) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 16:52:03 -0500 Subject: Return of the Phantom USB Device... Message-ID: <20031104215203.GD10337@socrates> Our Story So Far: The Samsung Yepp 55V, a multifunction gizmo that should act as a USB mass-storage device, gives the following odd problem under Linux (*not* Mac OS X 10.2): after loading the usb-ohci and the usb-storage modules via modprobe, which also loads usbcore, I can mount the device [via mount -t msdos /dev/sda1 /mnt] and copy files from it and delete files on it. What I *cannot* do is write to it. I don't know why. As you can see from the following log report, write-protect is off: kernel: hub.c: 2 ports detected kernel: hub.c: USB new device connect on bus2/2, assigned device number 2 kernel: scsi1 : SCSI emulation for USB Mass Storage devices kernel: Vendor: Samsung Model: YP-55 Rev: 0001 kernel: Type: Direct-Access ANSI SCSI revision: 02 kernel: Attached scsi removable disk sda at scsi1, channel 0, id 0, lun 0 kernel: SCSI device sda: 506880 512-byte hdwr sectors (260 MB) kernel: sda: Write Protect is off kernel: /dev/scsi/host1/bus0/target0/lun0: p1 No amount of rebooting or rmmod the usb-storage module seems to affect the situation. There is one anomaly, though; if I run fdisk on the device before mounting, I get reports that the boundaries aren't where they ought to be. So here's the question: Should I try to reformat the device (on the off-chance its partition boundaries are messing things up) with a new FAT16 filesystem from fdisk? I'm worried that if I do so it'll never work again. Especially since it works without a hitch under OS X. I'm inclined to let sleeping dogs lie. But my Inner Geek really *wants* to make this thing work under Linux -- in part because I've had far too many uphill struggles to get things working under Linux that should Just Work (but don't). -- Peter King peter.king-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Philosophy Department University of Toronto (416)-978-3788 ofc Toronto, ON M5S 1A1 (416)-978-8703 fax CANADA All your base are belong to us... -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From kru_tch-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 4 21:54:32 2003 From: kru_tch-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (Stephen Allen) Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 16:54:32 -0500 Subject: Signing email In-Reply-To: <63293.129.42.208.182.1067978545.squirrel-zSS9becEkFt1ArK9tKgR/kEOCMrvLtNR@public.gmane.org> References: <3FA7F429.30308@codemonkeys.org> <3FA7F787.2060401@yahoo.ca> <3FA7FB86.9030105@codemonkeys.org> <3FA7FE2B.1010001@yahoo.ca> <63293.129.42.208.182.1067978545.squirrel@www.foolswisdom.com> Message-ID: <3FA82018.6060308@yahoo.ca> lloyd-fEEwcc3XMu8jODpR/OX0VQ at public.gmane.org wrote: >>>Is it really necessary to explain the benefits of encrypted/signed >>>e-mail? >> >>Pray tell what are they on a public e-mail list? Do we really need to >>have it verified, you are whom you say you are? I guess there are folks >>waiting in the wings, just licking their chops at the opportunity, to >>spoof a from, with your nick on it, to our little corner of the world. >>:o) > > > Doing a tiny bit of reseach on this topic, one position -- not the only > one -- is that the only way that encrypted/signed emails are affective if > many people use them, regardless of why and where. > > It is common on many techie "public email lists". > > What is your concern with it Steve? Not really any concern, and yes, I know it's used on some technie lists, however it's only needed to verify a person's authenticity. I don't think we need to concern ourselves with using digitial signatures in an open forum, it's somewhat redundant here. The point was that Emir, doesn't seem to think urls to news about Linux, being relevant here, I say it's more relevant, than the need for folks to digitally sign their e-mail messages on a public list. -- Best Regards, Steve -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 4 21:52:48 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 16:52:48 -0500 Subject: POLL: How many people on this list do not read industry news sites? In-Reply-To: <3FA7FB86.9030105-rdkfGonbjUTTQjIoRn/dzw@public.gmane.org> References: <3FA7F429.30308@codemonkeys.org> <3FA7F787.2060401@yahoo.ca> <3FA7FB86.9030105@codemonkeys.org> Message-ID: <20031104165248.4f329767.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Tue, 04 Nov 2003 14:18:30 -0500 Emir uttered: > I was once told that throwing cheap shots is a sign of an > intellectually-inferior mind that is unable to argue the issue on its > merits and instead resorts to ad hominem attacks to further their > point. Hmmm, quick scan of the last 2 months of mail on this list shows that you have made just these 2 posts: a) A thinly veiled rant on anyone posting "news item of the day" bits. and b) an arrogant self-contradictory snipe at someone who merely meant a good-natured jab. and your interest in the content of the list is...? -- JoeHill Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Well, you know, no matter where you go, there you are. -- Buckaroo Banzai -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From aitken-BwLjziHGQLusTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 4 04:37:56 2003 From: aitken-BwLjziHGQLusTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Chris Aitken) Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2003 23:37:56 -0500 Subject: Alternative to GAIM References: <3FA5CCDD.3000004@sympatico.ca> <3FA72838.1E907D8A@onlink.net> <200311041645.26903.fraser@wehave.net> Message-ID: <3FA72D24.1E7D4EEE@onlink.net> Fraser Campbell wrote: > On November 3, 2003 11:16 pm, Chris Aitken wrote: > > > The file is adevertised as amsn - rpm, but has a .php extension - I don't > > know what to do with a .php file... > > Is it an rpm? Ther website indicates it is. > Run "file file.php", that will tell you if it's actually an RPM > or not. [root at p166 chris2]# file showfiles.php showfiles.php: HTML document text > Assuming it is an rpm then just install it "rpm -Uvh file.rpm", > Linux tools generally don't care about file extensions, file extensions don't > generally have magical meanings as in Windows. [root at p166 chris2]# rpm -i showfiles.php showfiles.php: read manifest failed: Success Chris -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 4 22:05:38 2003 From: fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Fraser Campbell) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 17:05:38 -0500 Subject: Alternative to GAIM In-Reply-To: <3FA72D24.1E7D4EEE-BwLjziHGQLusTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FA5CCDD.3000004@sympatico.ca> <200311041645.26903.fraser@wehave.net> <3FA72D24.1E7D4EEE@onlink.net> Message-ID: <200311041705.38317.fraser@wehave.net> On November 3, 2003 11:37 pm, Chris Aitken wrote: > [root at p166 chris2]# file showfiles.php > showfiles.php: HTML document text Definitely not an RPM ... > [root at p166 chris2]# rpm -i showfiles.php > showfiles.php: read manifest failed: Success No hope of working. I often get confused on sourceforge, I right click on files to save them and end up saving their redirect page. When sourceforge shows you a clickable filename don't be tempted to right click it, just left click and wait for all the slow convoluted redirects that they want you to go through. -- Fraser Campbell http://www.wehave.net/ Georgetown, Ontario, Canada Debian GNU/Linux -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From gbell72-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 4 21:58:50 2003 From: gbell72-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (gbell72) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 16:58:50 -0500 (EST) Subject: sprint.ca Message-ID: Has anyone here ever received a blank email from a jmanella-U2XT7ciQrQL3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org? I just recieved one on another account of mine with the subject ATT00049 and according to the header it resolves to a user of Unitz Online Inc in sudbury. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From aitken-BwLjziHGQLusTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 4 04:51:29 2003 From: aitken-BwLjziHGQLusTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Chris Aitken) Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2003 23:51:29 -0500 Subject: Alternative to GAIM References: <3FA5CCDD.3000004@sympatico.ca> <3FA72838.1E907D8A@onlink.net> <3FA81F49.5020801@iprimus.ca> Message-ID: <3FA73051.63830204@onlink.net> Clive DaSilva wrote: > > Hmmn Chris > > I got a tar.gz file from sourceforge or maybe I was re-directed to > Freshmeat. I untarred it and the executable - amsn > was right there. Didn't have to compile it or anything. I got it from freshmeat.net but can't untar/unzip it: [root at p166 chris2]# ls -a amsnfls . .. amsn-0_83.tar.gz [root at p166 chris2]# cd amsnfls [root at p166 amsnfls]# tar xzvf amsn-0_83.tar.gz gzip: stdin: not in gzip format tar: Child returned status 1 tar: Error exit delayed from previous errors [root at p166 amsnfls]# tar xvf amsn-0_83.tar.gz tar: This does not look like a tar archive tar: Skipping to next header tar: Error exit delayed from previous errors [root at p166 amsnfls]# tar xzvf amsn* gzip: stdin: not in gzip format tar: Child returned status 1 tar: Error exit delayed from previous errors Chris -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From aitken-BwLjziHGQLusTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 4 04:54:06 2003 From: aitken-BwLjziHGQLusTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Chris Aitken) Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2003 23:54:06 -0500 Subject: Alternative to GAIM References: <3FA5CCDD.3000004@sympatico.ca> <3FA72838.1E907D8A@onlink.net> <3FA81F49.5020801@iprimus.ca> Message-ID: <3FA730ED.A0B3CFE7@onlink.net> Clive DaSilva wrote: > > Hmmn Chris > > I got a tar.gz file from sourceforge or maybe I was re-directed to > Freshmeat. I untarred it and the executable - amsn > was right there. Didn't have to compile it or anything. Does this mean it's not really a tar.gz? [root at p166 amsnfls]# file amsn-0_83.tar.gz amsn-0_83.tar.gz: HTML document text Chris -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jzygmont-tEQKYFGiemxAYG7eUwYNkWD2FQJk+8+b at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 4 22:14:23 2003 From: jzygmont-tEQKYFGiemxAYG7eUwYNkWD2FQJk+8+b at public.gmane.org (Justin Zygmont) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 17:14:23 -0500 (EST) Subject: Novell Buys Suse In-Reply-To: <200311041532.28660.fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org> References: <200311041532.28660.fraser@wehave.net> Message-ID: I just remember having a lot of trouble with yast, and then discovering that's it's closed source. On Tue, 4 Nov 2003, Fraser Campbell wrote: > On November 4, 2003 02:59 pm, Justin Zygmont wrote: > > > haha, and maybe if they decide to finally open source suse, then redhat > > may have more of a competitor if Fedora is a catastrophy. > > Haven't looked at SuSe in years, what parts are not open source? > > Redhat had me pissed of about a year and a half ago, for all their talk of > being open source they implemented a proprietary update mechanism. AFAIK, > there is no documentation on the up2date protocol and there is no free > up2date server from Redhat (there were a few works in progress to implement > one at the time that I looked). > > Apt on redhat was an easier to use solution anyway as it turned out but at > that time I was still under the notion that if I was using redhat I should do > things the redhat way ... using apt on redhat at work was the first step to > all-out conversion from redhat to Debian anyway, so it worked out well ;-) > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 4 22:18:46 2003 From: fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Fraser Campbell) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 17:18:46 -0500 Subject: S.M.A.R.T. ... is it? Message-ID: <200311041718.46261.fraser@wehave.net> Hi, I've been playing with smart monitoring of my disks for about a year and I'm not sure yet if it's at all useful. For those that don't know smart is a technology for querying disks as to their overall health. It can (supposedly) predict failures before they happen. I recently had a drive in my server fail (fortunately raided). The first sign of failure was that one of the partitions in the raid array failed on me. Almost every time I rebooted another partition would drop out of the raid (software raid, probably 6 total partitions). I took my time replacing the failing disk (perhaps 2 months) but as my disk slowly but surely was dying the smart utilities never reported a failure or impending failure. What I did notice was frequent log messages like those below: smartd: Device: /dev/hdc, S.M.A.R.T. Attribute: 1 Changed 1 smartd: Device: /dev/hdc, S.M.A.R.T. Attribute: 195 Changed Sometimes attributes change +1 (good I think), sometimes they change -1 ... occassionally the increments would be larger than 1. I replaced the disk about a little over week ago and tried to do a fresh install on it, I/O errors ... S.M.A.R.T. still reports that the disk is A-OK. Has anyone ever seen, or heard, of smart actually predicting a failure or is it just useless noise in my logfiles? -- Fraser Campbell http://www.wehave.net/ Georgetown, Ontario, Canada Debian GNU/Linux -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lloyd-fEEwcc3XMu8jODpR/OX0VQ at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 4 23:20:29 2003 From: lloyd-fEEwcc3XMu8jODpR/OX0VQ at public.gmane.org (lloyd-fEEwcc3XMu8jODpR/OX0VQ at public.gmane.org) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 18:20:29 -0500 (EST) Subject: Signing email In-Reply-To: <3FA82018.6060308-FFYn/CNdgSA@public.gmane.org> References: <3FA7F429.30308@codemonkeys.org> <3FA7F787.2060401@yahoo.ca> <3FA7FB86.9030105@codemonkeys.org> <3FA7FE2B.1010001@yahoo.ca> <63293.129.42.208.182.1067978545.squirrel@www.foolswisdom.com> <3FA82018.6060308@yahoo.ca> Message-ID: <49567.129.42.208.182.1067988029.squirrel@www.foolswisdom.com> > lloyd-fEEwcc3XMu8jODpR/OX0VQ at public.gmane.org wrote: >>>>Is it really necessary to explain the benefits of encrypted/signed >>>> e-mail? >>> >>>Pray tell what are they on a public e-mail list? Do we really need to >>> have it verified, you are whom you say you are? I guess there are >>> folks waiting in the wings, just licking their chops at the >>> opportunity, to spoof a from, with your nick on it, to our little >>> corner of the world. :o) >> >> >> Doing a tiny bit of reseach on this topic, one position -- not the >> only one -- is that the only way that encrypted/signed emails are >> affective if many people use them, regardless of why and where. >> >> It is common on many techie "public email lists". >> >> What is your concern with it Steve? > > Not really any concern, and yes, I know it's used on some technie lists, > however it's only needed to verify a person's authenticity. I don't > think we need to concern ourselves with using digitial signatures in an > open forum, it's somewhat redundant here. I think I did not make clear the point. If one chooses to include digitial sig and it is on my list of things to do, it is important to use it consistently throughout. Otherwise, when it is used it acts as a target for "sniffers". > The point was that Emir, doesn't seem to think urls to news about Linux, > being relevant here, I say it's more relevant, than the need for folks > to digitally sign their e-mail messages on a public list. But how can that be the point?! Emir, nor have I noticed anyone else, suggesting that everyone should be signing their emails. The real result is you may have distracted people from any point that you did have. Cheers, Lloyd -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 4 22:26:01 2003 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 17:26:01 -0500 Subject: Alternative to GAIM In-Reply-To: <3FA730ED.A0B3CFE7-BwLjziHGQLusTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FA5CCDD.3000004@sympatico.ca> <3FA72838.1E907D8A@onlink.net> <3FA81F49.5020801@iprimus.ca> <3FA730ED.A0B3CFE7@onlink.net> Message-ID: <20031104222601.GA645@node1.opengeometry.net> > > I got a tar.gz file from sourceforge or maybe I was re-directed to > > Freshmeat. I untarred it and the executable - amsn > > was right there. Didn't have to compile it or anything. > Question: > Does this mean it's not really a tar.gz? Answer: > [root at p166 amsnfls]# file amsn-0_83.tar.gz > amsn-0_83.tar.gz: HTML document text -- William Park, Open Geometry Consulting, Linux solution for data management and processing. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From aitken-BwLjziHGQLusTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 4 05:17:22 2003 From: aitken-BwLjziHGQLusTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Chris Aitken) Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 00:17:22 -0500 Subject: Alternative to GAIM References: <3FA5CCDD.3000004@sympatico.ca> <3FA72838.1E907D8A@onlink.net> <3FA81F49.5020801@iprimus.ca> <3FA730ED.A0B3CFE7@onlink.net> <20031104222601.GA645@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <3FA73662.1E3955A3@onlink.net> William Park wrote: > [...] > > Question: > > > Does this mean it's not really a tar.gz? > > Answer: > > > [root at p166 amsnfls]# file amsn-0_83.tar.gz > > amsn-0_83.tar.gz: HTML document text Point taken. So, how do you untar/unzip and rpm -i a file that may not be a tar, gzip or, for that matter, an rpm? Chris -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 4 22:40:51 2003 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 17:40:51 -0500 Subject: OpenOffice.org Performance In-Reply-To: <20031104041547.4A35D44DA-xzRQuAxiFLNWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org> References: <000d01c39e63$03c92290$24af9d18@alpha> <20031102205521.GA6244@m433> <20031102235322.A589244BB@cbbrowne.com> <200311022059.47472.fraser@wehave.net> <20031103031022.06E9F44BB@cbbrowne.com> <20031104003525.GA7828@m433> <20031104041547.4A35D44DA@cbbrowne.com> Message-ID: <20031104224051.GA27292@m433> On Mon, Nov 03, 2003 at 11:15:46PM -0500, cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org wrote > > I deliberately used the word "desktop", not "window manager". The > > usual situation is... > > - X at lowest level > > - window manager on top of X > > - optional "desktop" on top of the window manager; cutsie icons strewn > > all over, and ooey-gui, touchy-feely interaction. > > - actual applications that do the work that you bought your computer > > to do > > But that's not how the desktop environments function. > > The "desktop" does NOT run 'on top of the window manager.' Applications > do NOT run "on top of" the desktop. > > - The window manager... is an X application that runs atop X. That is > the ONLY necessarily special part; window managers are special in that > they are exclusive. You cannot run two window managers concurrently. > > - The "desktop" is a set of X applications that run atop X. s/applications/unnecessary eye-candy/ It has been my experience that my 433 mhz 128 megs RAM machine runs^H^H^H^H crawls painfully slowly with the KDE graphical desktop environment (and ditto GNOME), but is perfectly usable without the desktop. As I mentioned previously, I can run KDE/GNOME apps, just as long as I have KDE/GNOME installed. The eye-candy "desktop" is not required. > - If you're running a "Panel", that is very much equivalent running a > program launcher like TkDesk or the "dock" modules in AfterStep and > WMaker. Matter of fact, I *DO* run GNOME's panel, under FVWM. > The emperor has no clothing; they are nothing more or less than a set of > X applications. If you call it more, then you are fooling yourself into > thinking there's something truly special there. It wasn't me. Almost at the top of the intro page at http://www.kde.org is the proclamation that... "KDE is a powerful Open Source graphical desktop environment for Unix workstations." And at http://www.gnome.org/about/ What is GNOME? The GNOME Project is an effort to create a complete, free and easy-to-use desktop environment for users, as well as a powerful application development framework for software developers. -- Walter Dnes Email users are divided into two classes; 1) Those who have effective spam-blocking 2) Those who wish they did -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From c.f.a.johnson-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 4 22:52:46 2003 From: c.f.a.johnson-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Chris F.A. Johnson) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 17:52:46 -0500 (EST) Subject: Alternative to GAIM In-Reply-To: <3FA73662.1E3955A3-BwLjziHGQLusTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FA5CCDD.3000004@sympatico.ca> <3FA72838.1E907D8A@onlink.net> <3FA81F49.5020801@iprimus.ca> <3FA730ED.A0B3CFE7@onlink.net> <20031104222601.GA645@node1.opengeometry.net> <3FA73662.1E3955A3@onlink.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 4 Nov 2003, Chris Aitken wrote: > William Park wrote: > > > [...] > > > > > Question: > > > > > Does this mean it's not really a tar.gz? > > > > Answer: > > > > > [root at p166 amsnfls]# file amsn-0_83.tar.gz > > > amsn-0_83.tar.gz: HTML document text > > Point taken. So, how do you untar/unzip and rpm -i a file that > may not be a tar, gzip or, for that matter, an rpm? You don't; it's not tarred, it's not gzipped, and it's not an rpm. It's an HTML file. You go back to the web site and get the correct file. (You can read it with a text editor, or a web browser. With the latter, it'll look better if you rename it amsn-0_83.html.) -- Chris F.A. Johnson ================================================================= cfaj-uVmiyxGBW52XDw4h08c5KA at public.gmane.org http://cfaj.freeshell.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 4 22:54:54 2003 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 17:54:54 -0500 Subject: Alternative to GAIM In-Reply-To: <3FA73662.1E3955A3-BwLjziHGQLusTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FA5CCDD.3000004@sympatico.ca> <3FA72838.1E907D8A@onlink.net> <3FA81F49.5020801@iprimus.ca> <3FA730ED.A0B3CFE7@onlink.net> <20031104222601.GA645@node1.opengeometry.net> <3FA73662.1E3955A3@onlink.net> Message-ID: <20031104225454.GA743@node1.opengeometry.net> On Tue, Nov 04, 2003 at 12:17:22AM -0500, Chris Aitken wrote: > > Question: > > > > > Does this mean it's not really a tar.gz? > > > > Answer: > > > > > [root at p166 amsnfls]# file amsn-0_83.tar.gz > > > amsn-0_83.tar.gz: HTML document text > > Point taken. So, how do you untar/unzip and rpm -i a file that > may not be a tar, gzip or, for that matter, an rpm? Most likely, 'file' is correct; that is, it is .html file which was saved as .tar.gz. You can't untar/unzip a HTML file, because HTML is not tar/zip archive. -- William Park, Open Geometry Consulting, Linux solution for data management and processing. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 4 23:06:50 2003 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 18:06:50 -0500 Subject: Novell Buys Suse In-Reply-To: References: <20031104101240.730a4474.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <3FA8310A.9000802@rogers.com> I guess you haven't been following the news lately. IBM is also buying a chunk of Novell, so they seem to think it's a good idea. Then, Novell buying SuSe certainly knocks the wind out of SCOs sails, WRT SuSe any way. And Red Hat seems to be getting out of the personal market, focusing on "enterprise". gbell72 wrote: > My personal take on this is..anyone that has previously made a stock > investment in novell are the only ones going to prosper. This surely is > helping suse out on the american side..but how well can they compete with > rhat who sell box sets almost dirt cheap? > IMO, whoever bought novell stocks when they were in the $2 range and rode > it out till they topped today at almost $8.90 a share are the real > winners. > > Garnder > > On Tue, 4 Nov 2003, JoeHill wrote: > > >>Novell to MS: it's payback time! LOL! >> >>http://zdnet.com.com/2100-1104_2-5101680.html >> >>Puts a new wrinkle in the SCO case too, apparently. >> >>-- >>JoeHill >>Registered Linux user #282046 >>Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org >>+++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >>Death is only a state of mind. >> >>Only it doesn't leave you much time to think about anything else. >>-- >>The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org >>TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >>How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml >> > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jzygmont-tEQKYFGiemxAYG7eUwYNkWD2FQJk+8+b at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 4 23:08:12 2003 From: jzygmont-tEQKYFGiemxAYG7eUwYNkWD2FQJk+8+b at public.gmane.org (Justin Zygmont) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 18:08:12 -0500 (EST) Subject: sprint.ca In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: no, but i've been getting a lot more spam lately, it's usually from "MS critical security pack" or something like that. It comes with an attachment that i'm almost certain is virus ridden. I set iptables to log port 25 activity, but they're coming in from all directions. I wonder if anyone else here is getting these messages? On Tue, 4 Nov 2003, gbell72 wrote: > Has anyone here ever received a blank email from a jmanella-U2XT7ciQrQL3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org? I > just recieved one on another account of mine with the subject ATT00049 and > according to the header it resolves to a user of Unitz Online Inc in > sudbury. > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From aitken-BwLjziHGQLusTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 4 05:53:18 2003 From: aitken-BwLjziHGQLusTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Chris Aitken) Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 00:53:18 -0500 Subject: how to log out without panel References: <3FA0760D.DD9BB04A@onlink.net> <20031030134829.19d20bc3.joehill@sympatico.ca> <44415.216.138.194.32.1067559288.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> Message-ID: <3FA73ECD.3BD68D0D@onlink.net> Keith Mastin wrote: [...] > > That might work, but if it doesn't, you need to search $HOME with the -a > switch Not sure what that is... [chris at p166 chris]$ $HOME bash: /home/chris: is a directory > so you can see the dot files. Delete all the .gnome directories and > files and login. I moved all the .g* files to another dir. > This should create a new gnome profile for you to replace > the fubar'ed one. Hallelujah - it worked! I don't know if I'm closer to figuring out how to copy launchers from one accoutn to another, but at least I got my panel back and learned somehting. Thanks, Keith. Chris : ) > > > -- > Keith > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From gbell72-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 4 23:13:57 2003 From: gbell72-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (gbell72) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 18:13:57 -0500 (EST) Subject: sprint.ca In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Only email account I seem to get them in is yahoo, I normally get about 10-12 a day all different subjects..some say from postmaster..some from MS On Tue, 4 Nov 2003, Justin Zygmont wrote: > no, but i've been getting a lot more spam lately, it's usually from "MS > critical security pack" or something like that. It comes with an > attachment that i'm almost certain is virus ridden. I set iptables to log > port 25 activity, but they're coming in from all directions. I wonder if > anyone else here is getting these messages? > > On Tue, 4 Nov 2003, gbell72 wrote: > > > Has anyone here ever received a blank email from a jmanella-U2XT7ciQrQL3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org? I > > just recieved one on another account of mine with the subject ATT00049 and > > according to the header it resolves to a user of Unitz Online Inc in > > sudbury. > > -- > > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > > > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From blsonne-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 4 23:22:48 2003 From: blsonne-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Byron Sonne) Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 18:22:48 -0500 Subject: S.M.A.R.T. ... is it? In-Reply-To: <200311041718.46261.fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org> References: <200311041718.46261.fraser@wehave.net> Message-ID: <3FA834C8.4030603@rogers.com> > Has anyone ever seen, or heard, of smart actually predicting a failure or is > it just useless noise in my logfiles? Bit of both I'd say; anything based on statistical analysis of some kind is really just an educated maybe. Case in point: I ran a box for 2 years with SMART indicators going off and never had a problem or performance issue; I retired the box later for unrelated reasons. Last job I had I ran my box with SMART indicators for 3 months, then one day the drive choked and died. Not a failed partition or anything that simple, the friggin' thing wouldn't even autodetect. On a side note, working with Compaq servers we'd sometimes get the orange light going off indicating that the drive had performance issues, was dying, or had error rates past thresholds. Disks were SCSI, so I don't know if it was SMART or some equivalent. Replace the drive with a new one, same thing. WTF we're thinking... upgrade the firmware on the RAID controller and the new drive orange light goes off. Just for laughs we stuff the old 'bad' drive back in. Wouldn't you know it, now its fine :) I guess I'd look at it this way: if the SMART is going off, start doing backups religiously but otherwise don't panic. If it's a business production box or you got people with lawyers watching the box, then book your downtime and get it replaced ASAP. All in all, it's more useful at helping you than the Canadian government is at protecting you from torture at the hands of corrupt governments like Saudi Arabia, but then again, what isn't? -- For good, return good. For evil, return justice. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 4 23:24:16 2003 From: henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org (Henry Spencer) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 18:24:16 -0500 (EST) Subject: sprint.ca In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 4 Nov 2003, Justin Zygmont wrote: > no, but i've been getting a lot more spam lately, it's usually from "MS > critical security pack" or something like that. It comes with an > attachment that i'm almost certain is virus ridden. I set iptables to log > port 25 activity, but they're coming in from all directions. I wonder if > anyone else here is getting these messages? Most everybody is; it's the latest widespread Windows worm. Henry Spencer henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From blsonne-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 4 23:26:03 2003 From: blsonne-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Byron Sonne) Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 18:26:03 -0500 Subject: POLL: How many people on this list do not read industry news sites? In-Reply-To: <3FA7F429.30308-rdkfGonbjUTTQjIoRn/dzw@public.gmane.org> References: <3FA7F429.30308@codemonkeys.org> Message-ID: <3FA8358B.9080205@rogers.com> > You don't really have to answer. I just want to know if people think this > list is a sloppy, late news feed, or a discussion medium. All of the above, and I quite like it that way. As long as there isn't too much stuff that is OT... but as one can imagine most things can be made germane to Linux somehow. The one thing it isn't is a fiefdom a la Thamer. -- For good, return good. For evil, return justice. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lloyd-fEEwcc3XMu8jODpR/OX0VQ at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 5 00:30:36 2003 From: lloyd-fEEwcc3XMu8jODpR/OX0VQ at public.gmane.org (lloyd-fEEwcc3XMu8jODpR/OX0VQ at public.gmane.org) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 19:30:36 -0500 (EST) Subject: Novell Buys Suse In-Reply-To: References: <200311041532.28660.fraser@wehave.net> Message-ID: <59878.129.42.208.182.1067992236.squirrel@www.foolswisdom.com> Yes, that is correct, YAST is closed source. "UnitedLinux" uses YAST as well. I will likely continue to run Redhat on at least one of my machines as I work with a lot of corperate Linux users, ie they are running closed source Linux applications on RedHat. I think with Fedora that it will be a good community distribution that continues forward more quickly than Debian in the core server areas -- these will be driven by RedHat. Possibly, in the desktop areas its progress may slow some, but RedHat does have it's WS Edition. If the Fedora community flourishes this also will help. Cheers, Lloyd > I just remember having a lot of trouble with yast, and then discovering > that's it's closed source. > > > On Tue, 4 Nov 2003, Fraser Campbell wrote: > >> On November 4, 2003 02:59 pm, Justin Zygmont wrote: >> >> > haha, and maybe if they decide to finally open source suse, then >> redhat may have more of a competitor if Fedora is a catastrophy. >> >> Haven't looked at SuSe in years, what parts are not open source? >> >> Redhat had me pissed of about a year and a half ago, for all their >> talk of being open source they implemented a proprietary update >> mechanism. AFAIK, there is no documentation on the up2date protocol >> and there is no free up2date server from Redhat (there were a few >> works in progress to implement one at the time that I looked). >> >> Apt on redhat was an easier to use solution anyway as it turned out >> but at that time I was still under the notion that if I was using >> redhat I should do things the redhat way ... using apt on redhat at >> work was the first step to all-out conversion from redhat to Debian >> anyway, so it worked out well ;-) >> >> > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 4 23:44:20 2003 From: john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (John Moniz) Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 18:44:20 -0500 Subject: Alternative to GAIM In-Reply-To: <3FA72838.1E907D8A-BwLjziHGQLusTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FA5CCDD.3000004@sympatico.ca> <3FA72838.1E907D8A@onlink.net> Message-ID: <3FA839D4.2010503@sympatico.ca> Chris Aitken wrote: >John Moniz wrote: > > > >>Amsn is a good alternative to gaim for anyone having trouble installing >>a version of gaim that works with the latest msn protocol. AMSN is very >>easy to install and to use - even allows file transfers. The "A" in amsn >>is for Alvaro, the Spaniard who built it. >> >> > >The file is adevertised as amsn - rpm, but has a .php extension - I don't >know what to do with a .php file... > > > >>http://sourceforge.net/projects/amsn/ >> >>John. >> >> Try it again. Download version amsn-0_83.tar.gz, it's available through that link. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lists-Gb8Tj4xcA4YgsBAKwltoeQ at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 4 23:53:10 2003 From: lists-Gb8Tj4xcA4YgsBAKwltoeQ at public.gmane.org (Byron Q. Desnoyers Winmill) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 18:53:10 -0500 (EST) Subject: sprint.ca In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 4 Nov 2003, Henry Spencer wrote: > > i've been getting a lot more spam lately, it's usually from "MS > > critical security pack" or something like that. > > Most everybody is; it's the latest widespread Windows worm. I never see these worms. Sigh. The perils of working in a Unix centric world, and keeping the family off cheap operating systems. Byron. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From gbell72-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 4 23:54:36 2003 From: gbell72-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (gbell72) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 18:54:36 -0500 (EST) Subject: sprint.ca In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: does anyone know if these viruses could come in the form of a zip file? >From the attachment it shows as jmanellasprint.ca.zip. On Tue, 4 Nov 2003, Byron Q. Desnoyers Winmill wrote: > > On Tue, 4 Nov 2003, Henry Spencer wrote: > > > i've been getting a lot more spam lately, it's usually from "MS > > > critical security pack" or something like that. > > > > Most everybody is; it's the latest widespread Windows worm. > > I never see these worms. Sigh. The perils of working in a Unix centric > world, and keeping the family off cheap operating systems. > > Byron. > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From kru_tch-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 5 00:17:31 2003 From: kru_tch-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (Stephen Allen) Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 19:17:31 -0500 Subject: Signing email In-Reply-To: <49567.129.42.208.182.1067988029.squirrel-zSS9becEkFt1ArK9tKgR/kEOCMrvLtNR@public.gmane.org> References: <3FA7F429.30308@codemonkeys.org> <3FA7F787.2060401@yahoo.ca> <3FA7FB86.9030105@codemonkeys.org> <3FA7FE2B.1010001@yahoo.ca> <63293.129.42.208.182.1067978545.squirrel@www.foolswisdom.com> <3FA82018.6060308@yahoo.ca> <49567.129.42.208.182.1067988029.squirrel@www.foolswisdom.com> Message-ID: <3FA8419B.2070600@yahoo.ca> lloyd-fEEwcc3XMu8jODpR/OX0VQ at public.gmane.org wrote: > > I think I did not make clear the point. If one chooses to include > digitial sig and it is on my list of things to do, it is important to use > it consistently throughout. Otherwise, when it is used it acts as a > target for "sniffers". I thought you made it succinctly b4. I don't agree with using a digital signature, when there is no purpose for it. If you're worried about "sniffing", and you're not a spook, or playing with country and/or company trade secrets, or the 'crown jewels'. What are you worried about? Identity theft? Please... Most Geeks don't use it out of necessity, just as a novelty. >>The point was that Emir, doesn't seem to think urls to news about Linux, >>being relevant here, I say it's more relevant, than the need for folks >>to digitally sign their e-mail messages on a public list. > > But how can that be the point?! Emir, nor have I noticed anyone else, > suggesting that everyone should be signing their emails. The real result > is you may have distracted people from any point that you did have. The point was simply, that people in glass houses shouldn't cast stones, (and yes I guess I'm guilty of it to, having initiated the response). I don't really care about encrypted/signed e-mail, one way or the other. To some, reading e-mail with the annoying gpg/pgp block before the beginning, is as annoying (to at least one individual), as people posting urls to news items. Especially when the former is gratuitous on an e-mail list as this. BTW, I don't think you mentioned if you mind news url's posted here or not...? -- Best Regards, Steve -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 5 00:27:26 2003 From: henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org (Henry Spencer) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 19:27:26 -0500 (EST) Subject: sprint.ca In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 4 Nov 2003, Byron Q. Desnoyers Winmill wrote: > > Most everybody is; it's the latest widespread Windows worm. > > I never see these worms. Sigh. The perils of working in a Unix centric > world, and keeping the family off cheap operating systems. No, it has nothing to do with what operating system *you* are running. (There are no Windows systems here either.) It's a question of how widely your mailing address is known, and whether it's known on any sites that are currently infected. Henry Spencer henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lloyd-fEEwcc3XMu8jODpR/OX0VQ at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 5 01:36:04 2003 From: lloyd-fEEwcc3XMu8jODpR/OX0VQ at public.gmane.org (lloyd-fEEwcc3XMu8jODpR/OX0VQ at public.gmane.org) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 20:36:04 -0500 (EST) Subject: Signing email In-Reply-To: <3FA8419B.2070600-FFYn/CNdgSA@public.gmane.org> References: <3FA7F429.30308@codemonkeys.org> <3FA7F787.2060401@yahoo.ca> <3FA7FB86.9030105@codemonkeys.org> <3FA7FE2B.1010001@yahoo.ca> <63293.129.42.208.182.1067978545.squirrel@www.foolswisdom.com> <3FA82018.6060308@yahoo.ca> <49567.129.42.208.182.1067988029.squirrel@www.foolswisdom.com> <3FA8419B.2070600@yahoo.ca> Message-ID: <63015.129.42.208.182.1067996164.squirrel@www.foolswisdom.com> > I don't agree with using a digital signature, when there is no purpose > for it. If you're worried about "sniffing", and you're not a spook, or > playing with country and/or company trade secrets, or the 'crown > jewels'. What are you worried about? Identity theft? Please... Most > Geeks don't use it out of necessity, just as a novelty. Regardless of the reasoning, it is suggested that it is not effective if one does not use it consistently. It is also suggested that the more people that use it everyday, the more effective it is. Privacy technology being common is good for everyone. Identify theft is a very real concern today. Signing ones email is a very small part of a solution. Identity theft is something to be considerate of! Do any research on the subject and you will find that it is having a significant negative impact on many people, and the systems (read governments) are failing to protect these people. > To some, reading e-mail with the annoying gpg/pgp block before the > beginning, is as annoying (to at least one individual), It sounds like those individuals need a new email reader because, as you pointed out Steve, signed emails are not uncommon on public mailing lists. > BTW, I don't think you mentioned if you mind news url's posted here or > not...? http://article.gmane.org/gmane.org.user-groups.linux.tolug/2888 Cheers, Lloyd -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From kru_tch-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 5 01:05:59 2003 From: kru_tch-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (Stephen Allen) Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 20:05:59 -0500 Subject: Signing email In-Reply-To: <63015.129.42.208.182.1067996164.squirrel-zSS9becEkFt1ArK9tKgR/kEOCMrvLtNR@public.gmane.org> References: <3FA7F429.30308@codemonkeys.org> <3FA7F787.2060401@yahoo.ca> <3FA7FB86.9030105@codemonkeys.org> <3FA7FE2B.1010001@yahoo.ca> <63293.129.42.208.182.1067978545.squirrel@www.foolswisdom.com> <3FA82018.6060308@yahoo.ca> <49567.129.42.208.182.1067988029.squirrel@www.foolswisdom.com> <3FA8419B.2070600@yahoo.ca> <63015.129.42.208.182.1067996164.squirrel@www.foolswisdom.com> Message-ID: <3FA84CF7.7020807@yahoo.ca> lloyd-fEEwcc3XMu8jODpR/OX0VQ at public.gmane.org wrote: >>I don't agree with using a digital signature, when there is no purpose >>for it. If you're worried about "sniffing", and you're not a spook, or >>playing with country and/or company trade secrets, or the 'crown >>jewels'. What are you worried about? Identity theft? Please... Most >>Geeks don't use it out of necessity, just as a novelty. > > Regardless of the reasoning, it is suggested that it is not effective if > one does not use it consistently. It is also suggested that the more > people that use it everyday, the more effective it is. Privacy technology > being common is good for everyone. I'm not arguing that that it's NOT a suggested theory. I'm stating, I don't agree with that hypothesis, (or any I've read, regarding always using). ;) Granted, I'm not a crypto programmer, or heck a serious geek, like many of you. And, I don't really care about this issue that much... > Identify theft is a very real concern today. Signing ones email is a very > small part of a solution. Identity theft is something to be considerate > of! Do any research on the subject and you will find that it is having a > significant negative impact on many people, and the systems (read > governments) are failing to protect these people. Sounds like you're buying into issues not significant in this country. Identity theft in Canada, is uncommon, and not quite the issue it is south of the border. There, one can purchase social security numbers easily, and quite frankly, the public access to government databases, is much easier to obtain. >>To some, reading e-mail with the annoying gpg/pgp block before the >>beginning, is as annoying (to at least one individual), > > It sounds like those individuals need a new email reader because, as you > pointed out Steve, signed emails are not uncommon on public mailing lists. They're uncommon on public e-mail lists, not uncommon on Geek related e-mail lists... ;) >>BTW, I don't think you mentioned if you mind news url's posted here or >>not...? > > http://article.gmane.org/gmane.org.user-groups.linux.tolug/2888 Thanks, my 'find' on my local spool, works fine to. :) You didn't mention, urls of news items, I had checked before I asked... you didn't exclude, it though. No matter, it not a big issue, it appears most don't seem to mind news urls being posted. :)) Whatever, (yawn) time to go to bed... -- Best Regards, Steve -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From tim-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 5 01:15:51 2003 From: tim-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Tim Writer) Date: 04 Nov 2003 20:15:51 -0500 Subject: Return of the Phantom USB Device... In-Reply-To: <20031104215203.GD10337-sKwiGYaqY94@public.gmane.org> References: <20031104215203.GD10337@socrates> Message-ID: Peter King writes: > Our Story So Far: The Samsung Yepp 55V, a multifunction gizmo that > should act as a USB mass-storage device, gives the following odd problem > under Linux (*not* Mac OS X 10.2): after loading the usb-ohci and the > usb-storage modules via modprobe, which also loads usbcore, I can mount > the device [via mount -t msdos /dev/sda1 /mnt] and copy files from it > and delete files on it. What I *cannot* do is write to it. I don't know > why. > > As you can see from the following log report, write-protect is off: > > kernel: hub.c: 2 ports detected > kernel: hub.c: USB new device connect on bus2/2, assigned device number 2 > kernel: scsi1 : SCSI emulation for USB Mass Storage devices > kernel: Vendor: Samsung Model: YP-55 Rev: 0001 > kernel: Type: Direct-Access ANSI SCSI revision: 02 > kernel: Attached scsi removable disk sda at scsi1, channel 0, id 0, lun 0 > kernel: SCSI device sda: 506880 512-byte hdwr sectors (260 MB) > kernel: sda: Write Protect is off > kernel: /dev/scsi/host1/bus0/target0/lun0: p1 > > No amount of rebooting or rmmod the usb-storage module seems to affect > the situation. There is one anomaly, though; if I run fdisk on the > device before mounting, I get reports that the boundaries aren't where > they ought to be. > > So here's the question: > > Should I try to reformat the device (on the off-chance its partition > boundaries are messing things up) with a new FAT16 filesystem from > fdisk? > > I'm worried that if I do so it'll never work again. Especially since it > works without a hitch under OS X. Where was it partitioned and formatted? If the answer is OS X, you may need to have support for BSD partitions compiled into your kernel. If it came with a Windows formatting utility, it won't probably won't hurt to reformat. HTH, -- tim writer starnix inc. 905.771.0017 ext. 225 thornhill, ontario, canada http://www.starnix.com professional linux services & products -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 5 01:31:08 2003 From: davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (David J Patrick) Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 20:31:08 -0500 Subject: backup stratagems Message-ID: <3FA852DC.700@sympatico.ca> Alright, backups are unquestionably essential. I admit to practicing the crudest of methods; drag everything into a k3b session, whenever my spidey sense tells me to. My most recent mishaps with modules have me considering more formal alternatives. linux-backup.net has several (bash & perl) scripts that look clever. Hdup monthly/weekly/daily approach makes sense mondos' bootable backup isos are compelling offsite over-the-net sounds practical What do you use ? ..discuss .. djp -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From legrady-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 5 01:49:27 2003 From: legrady-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Tom Legrady) Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 20:49:27 -0500 Subject: Alternative to GAIM In-Reply-To: <3FA72838.1E907D8A-BwLjziHGQLusTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FA5CCDD.3000004@sympatico.ca> <3FA72838.1E907D8A@onlink.net> Message-ID: <3FA85727.5040601@rogers.com> AMSN generates shell script errors and compile errors. I gave up attempting to install it. Maybe next version Tom Chris Aitken wrote: >John Moniz wrote: > > > >>Amsn is a good alternative to gaim for anyone having trouble installing >>a version of gaim that works with the latest msn protocol. AMSN is very >>easy to install and to use - even allows file transfers. The "A" in amsn >>is for Alvaro, the Spaniard who built it. >> >> > >The file is adevertised as amsn - rpm, but has a .php extension - I don't >know what to do with a .php file... > > > >>http://sourceforge.net/projects/amsn/ >> >>John. >> >>-- >>The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org >>TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >>How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml >> >> > >-- >The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org >TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From blsonne-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 5 01:58:27 2003 From: blsonne-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Byron Sonne) Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 20:58:27 -0500 Subject: backup stratagems In-Reply-To: <3FA852DC.700-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FA852DC.700@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <3FA85943.2050900@rogers.com> > What do you use ? I have a DDS-4 drive hanging off my linux box that I use to backup everything in my house, OpenBSD or the wife's windows & mac boxen. How do I do it? Well, I don't do it as regularly as I should as I trigger it manually by doing this on the remote host: tar -cevf - / | ssh sheridan buffer -u 100 -B -t -p 75 -o /dev/nst0 I see no reason why something like this couldn't be coupled with rsync to save bandwidth and then cron'd for ease of running. BTW, the buffer programs helps since remote tape backups can bitch if they don't get fed properly. Godbless the person who wrote that on the website I got it from (can't remember). Of course it would be a little different on the local host, but if you're not doing enterprise backups tar works surprisingly well for home needs. -- For good, return good. For evil, return justice. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lloyd-fEEwcc3XMu8jODpR/OX0VQ at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 5 03:03:41 2003 From: lloyd-fEEwcc3XMu8jODpR/OX0VQ at public.gmane.org (lloyd-fEEwcc3XMu8jODpR/OX0VQ at public.gmane.org) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 22:03:41 -0500 (EST) Subject: backup stratagems In-Reply-To: <3FA852DC.700-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FA852DC.700@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <52209.129.42.208.182.1068001421.squirrel@www.foolswisdom.com> > Alright, backups are unquestionably essential. > I admit to practicing the crudest of methods; drag everything into a > > k3b session, whenever my spidey sense tells me to. > My most recent mishaps with modules have me considering more formal > alternatives. > linux-backup.net has several (bash & perl) scripts that look clever. > Hdup monthly/weekly/daily approach makes sense > mondos' bootable backup isos are compelling > offsite over-the-net sounds practical > > What do you use ? > ..discuss .. There was a very good newTLUG meeting about this 1.5yr ago: http://tman.dyndns.org/~ttanski/backups/ Have things really changed? When I last looked around, after that meeting, this is the list I made: gratis: storix: "FREE personal-edition" arkeia: "try it for FREE" tar/cfdisk rsync: option to create a live backup on the system. partimage mondo Webmin ? has filesystem backup, GNU tar... careful if services are up ;-) Amanda cpio dd taper For my own needs, version control + backup specific files has always been sufficient. Cheers, Lloyd -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jason-gaRZxGPHtpBxZtjKW1aY+1aTQe2KTcn/ at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 5 02:21:02 2003 From: jason-gaRZxGPHtpBxZtjKW1aY+1aTQe2KTcn/ at public.gmane.org (Jason Shein) Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 21:21:02 -0500 Subject: Alternative to GAIM In-Reply-To: <3FA85727.5040601-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <3FA5CCDD.3000004@sympatico.ca> <3FA72838.1E907D8A@onlink.net> <3FA85727.5040601@rogers.com> Message-ID: <3FA85E8E.3060207@pcsecurityonline.com> Tom Legrady wrote: > AMSN generates shell script errors and compile errors. I gave up > attempting to install it. Maybe next version > > Tom > > Chris Aitken wrote: > >> John Moniz wrote: >> >> >> >>> Amsn is a good alternative to gaim for anyone having trouble installing >>> a version of gaim that works with the latest msn protocol. AMSN is very >>> easy to install and to use - even allows file transfers. The "A" in amsn >>> is for Alvaro, the Spaniard who built it. >>> >> >> >> The file is adevertised as amsn - rpm, but has a .php extension - I don't >> know what to do with a .php file... >> >> >> >>> http://sourceforge.net/projects/amsn/ >>> >>> John. >>> >>> -- >>> The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org >>> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >>> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml >>> >> >> >> -- >> The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org >> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml >> >> >> > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > Um, the latest tar.gz extracts to a directory called msn. The file called amsn.desktop in this directory is executable as is. no compiling needed. Works great. I have been using amsn for the last 2 years with no problems. From the download page -snip- Download amsn-0_xx.tar.gz $ tar xvzf amsn-0_xx.tar.gz $ cd msn $ ./amsn or $ wish amsn If command wish is not found, you need to install tcl/tk packages (tcl & tk). -snip- -- " Eventually people tire of repairing broken Windows, And decide to replace them with something stronger" (o_ //\ Linux - The Choice Of A GNU Generation V_/_ Jason Shein Linux Registered User #281100 jason-gaRZxGPHtpBxZtjKW1aY+1aTQe2KTcn/@public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cdasilva-q6EoVN9bke6w5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 5 02:27:43 2003 From: cdasilva-q6EoVN9bke6w5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org (Clive DaSilva) Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 21:27:43 -0500 Subject: Alternative to GAIM In-Reply-To: <3FA730ED.A0B3CFE7-BwLjziHGQLusTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FA5CCDD.3000004@sympatico.ca> <3FA72838.1E907D8A@onlink.net> <3FA81F49.5020801@iprimus.ca> <3FA730ED.A0B3CFE7@onlink.net> Message-ID: <3FA8601F.3050101@iprimus.ca> Chris Aitken wrote: >Clive DaSilva wrote: > > > >>Hmmn Chris >> >>I got a tar.gz file from sourceforge or maybe I was re-directed to >>Freshmeat. I untarred it and the executable - amsn >>was right there. Didn't have to compile it or anything. >> >> > >Does this mean it's not really a tar.gz? > >[root at p166 amsnfls]# file amsn-0_83.tar.gz >amsn-0_83.tar.gz: HTML document text > >Chris > >-- >The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org >TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > > > > Hello Chris Not sure how to answer you. I did not run into any of those problems. I was able tar -zxvf amsn.whatever.tar.gz to create a directory which among other things had a compiled executable - amsn, which is working for me right now. Not sure waht to suggest Clive -- Clive DaSilva Home Tel: 416-421-2480 Cell: 416-560-8820 Email: cdasilva-q6EoVN9bke6w5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org Mandrake 9.1 Kernel 2.4.21 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 5 02:28:36 2003 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 21:28:36 -0500 Subject: after Linux, what? in place of Hurd, Eros, Brazil,...? In-Reply-To: References: <20031029214601.GB2221@interlog.com> <20031101235648.900AE4092@cbbrowne.com> <20031102224020.GD6244@m433> Message-ID: <20031105022836.GB27292@m433> On Tue, Nov 04, 2003 at 10:47:34AM -0500, Robert Brockway wrote > I think there is a happy medium. RH certainly has problem with their > release cycle imho (x.0 versions certainly had a reputation for being > buggy) but IMHO Debian can be a tad slow - the Stable release cycle > is currently around 2 years. I'd like to see it reduced to 1 year. Usually, individual apps can be updated without updating the whole OS. I think there might be an argument for a new major stable version after the release of a new stable (even-numbered 10ths digit) linux kernel. That's when you tend to get actual new features. > I'd also like to see the kernel cycle reduced. I argue that with > shorter development, freeze & release cycles the overall workload > is reduced because overall complexity of each cycle is reduced. Sounds just like Windows 3.11/95/95OSr2/98/98SE/ME/XP. No thanks. -- Walter Dnes Email users are divided into two classes; 1) Those who have effective spam-blocking 2) Those who wish they did -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cdasilva-q6EoVN9bke6w5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 5 02:30:58 2003 From: cdasilva-q6EoVN9bke6w5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org (Clive DaSilva) Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 21:30:58 -0500 Subject: Alternative to GAIM In-Reply-To: <3FA85E8E.3060207-gaRZxGPHtpBxZtjKW1aY+1aTQe2KTcn/@public.gmane.org> References: <3FA5CCDD.3000004@sympatico.ca> <3FA72838.1E907D8A@onlink.net> <3FA85727.5040601@rogers.com> <3FA85E8E.3060207@pcsecurityonline.com> Message-ID: <3FA860E2.6040704@iprimus.ca> Jason Shein wrote: > Tom Legrady wrote: > >> AMSN generates shell script errors and compile errors. I gave up >> attempting to install it. Maybe next version >> >> Tom >> >> Chris Aitken wrote: >> >>> John Moniz wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>> Amsn is a good alternative to gaim for anyone having trouble >>>> installing >>>> a version of gaim that works with the latest msn protocol. AMSN is >>>> very >>>> easy to install and to use - even allows file transfers. The "A" in >>>> amsn >>>> is for Alvaro, the Spaniard who built it. >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> The file is adevertised as amsn - rpm, but has a .php extension - I >>> don't >>> know what to do with a .php file... >>> >>> >>> >>>> http://sourceforge.net/projects/amsn/ >>>> >>>> John. >>>> >>>> -- >>>> The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org >>>> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >>>> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org >>> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >>> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml >>> >>> >>> >> >> -- >> The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org >> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml >> > Um, the latest tar.gz extracts to a directory called msn. The file > called amsn.desktop in this directory is executable as is. no > compiling needed. Works great. I have been using amsn for the last 2 > years with no problems. > > From the download page > > -snip- > Download amsn-0_xx.tar.gz > > $ tar xvzf amsn-0_xx.tar.gz > > $ cd msn > > $ ./amsn > or > $ wish amsn > > If command wish is not found, you need to install tcl/tk packages (tcl > & tk). > -snip- > Hi Jason That was my experience with this software download and installation too. Worked like a charm for me. Clive -- Clive DaSilva Home Tel: 416-421-2480 Cell: 416-560-8820 Email: cdasilva-q6EoVN9bke6w5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org Mandrake 9.1 Kernel 2.4.21 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From legrady-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 5 02:36:18 2003 From: legrady-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Tom Legrady) Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 21:36:18 -0500 Subject: Alternative to GAIM In-Reply-To: <3FA8601F.3050101-q6EoVN9bke6w5LPnMra/2Q@public.gmane.org> References: <3FA5CCDD.3000004@sympatico.ca> <3FA72838.1E907D8A@onlink.net> <3FA81F49.5020801@iprimus.ca> <3FA730ED.A0B3CFE7@onlink.net> <3FA8601F.3050101@iprimus.ca> Message-ID: <3FA86222.1070407@rogers.com> No, that means that instead of downloading the tar.gz, you accidentally saved the web page. Tom > Chris Aitken wrote: > >> Clive DaSilva wrote: >> >>> Hmmn Chris >>> >>> I got a tar.gz file from sourceforge or maybe I was re-directed to >>> Freshmeat. I untarred it and the executable - amsn >>> was right there. Didn't have to compile it or anything. >> >> Does this mean it's not really a tar.gz? >> >> [root at p166 amsnfls]# file amsn-0_83.tar.gz >> amsn-0_83.tar.gz: HTML document text > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 5 03:01:13 2003 From: cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org (cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org) Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 22:01:13 -0500 Subject: Fedora Linux In-Reply-To: Message from of "Tue, 04 Nov 2003 19:30:36 EST." <59878.129.42.208.182.1067992236.squirrel-zSS9becEkFt1ArK9tKgR/kEOCMrvLtNR@public.gmane.org> References: <200311041532.28660.fraser@wehave.net> <59878.129.42.208.182.1067992236.squirrel@www.foolswisdom.com> Message-ID: <20031105030114.EEE7444BB@cbbrowne.com> > I think with Fedora that it will be a good community distribution that > continues forward more quickly than Debian in the core server areas -- > these will be driven by RedHat. Possibly, in the desktop areas its > progress may slow some, but RedHat does have it's WS Edition. If the > Fedora community flourishes this also will help. Fedora will only _survive_ (and by that, I mean "not disappear as an abject failure") if RHAT devotes serious resources to it; as serious as they have been devoting to "Red Hat Linux." If, instead, they depend on community contributions to replace their efforts, then this requires that other people be convinced to donate the assistance that RHAT has clearly demonstrated, by the fact of their establishing this new distribution, they DON'T wish to give. For there to be any kind of success, a community has to _quickly_ flourish around it, with a LOT of people joining in to manage one package or another, and they'll have to go through the growing and learning pains that the Debian project has already gone through in establishing exactly that sort of distributed network of package managers. And there also lies another challenge; why should someone experiment with contributing to Fedora which might fall as quickly as it rises when they could join an already-strong network of Debian packagers? Fedora needs to draw from that same set of people. -- let name="cbbrowne" and tld="ntlug.org" in name ^ "@" ^ tld;; http://cbbrowne.com/info/linux.html Warning: Dates in calendar are closer than they appear. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 5 03:06:17 2003 From: cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org (cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org) Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 22:06:17 -0500 Subject: Source of Spam In-Reply-To: Message from "Byron Q. Desnoyers Winmill" of "Tue, 04 Nov 2003 18:53:10 EST." References: Message-ID: <20031105030618.28D5844BB@cbbrowne.com> > > On Tue, 4 Nov 2003, Henry Spencer wrote: > > > i've been getting a lot more spam lately, it's usually from "MS > > > critical security pack" or something like that. > > > > Most everybody is; it's the latest widespread Windows worm. > > I never see these worms. Sigh. The perils of working in a Unix centric > world, and keeping the family off cheap operating systems. If you participate in any mailing list that has a Usenet gateway, or have your email address on a web site somewhere, you're almost sure to get "hit" by it. -- let name="cbbrowne" and tld="ntlug.org" in String.concat "@" [name;tld];; http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/languages.html Rules of the Evil Overlord #48. "I will treat any beast which I control through magic or technology with respect and kindness. Thus if the control is ever broken, it will not immediately come after me for revenge." -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 5 03:25:01 2003 From: fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Fraser Campbell) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 22:25:01 -0500 Subject: sprint.ca In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200311042225.02289.fraser@wehave.net> On November 4, 2003 06:54 pm, gbell72 wrote: > does anyone know if these viruses could come in the form of a zip file? > From the attachment it shows as jmanellasprint.ca.zip. There are a few new Microsoft worms that send emails containing zip archives. -- Fraser Campbell http://www.wehave.net/ Georgetown, Ontario, Canada Debian GNU/Linux -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 5 03:29:41 2003 From: fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Fraser Campbell) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 22:29:41 -0500 Subject: sprint.ca In-Reply-To: <200311042225.02289.fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org> References: <200311042225.02289.fraser@wehave.net> Message-ID: <200311042229.41285.fraser@wehave.net> On November 4, 2003 10:25 pm, Fraser Campbell wrote: > On November 4, 2003 06:54 pm, gbell72 wrote: > > does anyone know if these viruses could come in the form of a zip file? > > From the attachment it shows as jmanellasprint.ca.zip. > > There are a few new Microsoft worms that send emails containing zip > archives. Darn hotkeys, I meant to at least paste in a URL, there are a number of new Mimail variants ... http://www.sophos.com/virusinfo/articles/mimailattack.html Clamscan is a free virus scanner that should be able to tell you what you're getting. -- Fraser Campbell http://www.wehave.net/ Georgetown, Ontario, Canada Debian GNU/Linux -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From peter.king-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 5 03:30:11 2003 From: peter.king-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Peter King) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 22:30:11 -0500 Subject: Return of the Phantom USB Device... In-Reply-To: References: <20031104215203.GD10337@socrates> Message-ID: <20031105033011.GB12315@socrates> On Tue, Nov 04, 2003 at 08:15:51PM -0500, Tim Writer wrote: > Where was it partitioned and formatted? If the answer is OS X, you may need > to have support for BSD partitions compiled into your kernel. If it came > with a Windows formatting utility, it won't probably won't hurt to reformat. It was partitioned at the factory, presumably by Samsung. I've now checked it with dosfsck, and found that there are mysterious "hidden sectors" on it, and I'll just bet that if I redo it under Linux -- perhaps even under Windows -- those hidden sectors will be a real problem. I think I'll cave in. No netsearch turns up anything on the subject, so either nobody else has a problem or Linux users are staying away from this device. -- Peter King peter.king-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Philosophy Department University of Toronto (416)-978-3788 ofc Toronto, ON M5S 1A1 (416)-978-8703 fax CANADA All your base are belong to us... -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From aacton-B71PBEe7S7Y at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 5 03:38:09 2003 From: aacton-B71PBEe7S7Y at public.gmane.org (Austin) Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 22:38:09 -0500 Subject: [Fwd: two point six] Message-ID: <1068003489.3570.10.camel@gamma373-179.portable.resnet.yorku.ca> -----Forwarded Message----- From: Austin To: cooker-J4tZAbal8pkzaQFa27Lw39BPR1lH4CV8 at public.gmane.org Subject: two point six Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 22:26:47 -0500 Okay, I know everyone has been itching for a really bad song, written in ten minutes, and recorded in less than twenty, about the new kernel, so here it is: http://groundstate.ca/twopointsix.ogg Of course this was done wholly with free software: Mandrake cooker kernel 2.6-test9 courtesy of Olivier Blin audacity 1.2.0pre3 a crappy intel sound card an expensive condenser mic a roland Sound Canvas MIDI module and an Evolution controller Now if only I could get my Quattro working and learn to play keys a bit better, I would wet my pants... Austin -- Austin Acton Synthetic Organic Chemist, Teaching Assistant, Ph.D. Candidate Department of Chemistry, York University, Toronto MandrakeLinux Volunteer Developer, homepage: www.groundstate.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From aitken-BwLjziHGQLusTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 4 10:33:54 2003 From: aitken-BwLjziHGQLusTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Chris Aitken) Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 05:33:54 -0500 Subject: Alternative to GAIM References: <3FA5CCDD.3000004@sympatico.ca> <3FA72838.1E907D8A@onlink.net> <3FA839D4.2010503@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <3FA78092.B2767809@onlink.net> John Moniz wrote: > Chris Aitken wrote: > > >John Moniz wrote: [...] > >>Amsn is a good alternative to gaim for anyone having trouble installing > >>a version of gaim that works with the latest msn protocol. AMSN is very > >>easy to install and to use - even allows file transfers. The "A" in amsn > >>is for Alvaro, the Spaniard who built it. > [...] > > >>http://sourceforge.net/projects/amsn/ > >> > >>John. > >> > >> > Try it again. Download version amsn-0_83.tar.gz, it's available through > that link. Ya, I got it - my daughter is happiy tying up the phonelines on msn again. Chris -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From aitken-BwLjziHGQLusTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 4 10:51:07 2003 From: aitken-BwLjziHGQLusTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Chris Aitken) Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 05:51:07 -0500 Subject: Alternative to GAIM References: <3FA5CCDD.3000004@sympatico.ca> <3FA72838.1E907D8A@onlink.net> <3FA85727.5040601@rogers.com> Message-ID: <3FA7849B.9BCACBFA@onlink.net> Tom Legrady wrote: > AMSN generates shell script errors and compile errors. I gave up > attempting to install it. Maybe next version Really? I downloaded version amsn-0_83.tar.gz from links starting at www.freshmeat.net. The trick someone poited out is to never right-click - just keep left-clicking on the links, it downloads, I made a dir named amsn, copied the tar.gz in there, ran tar xzvf file.tar.gz, then rpm -i file.rpm - then you'll see the executable. My path is /home/chris/amsn/msn/amsn (unnecessarily long) to which I created a launcher. I ran it, a message came up asking me to allow some encryption software installation - the encryption software installation must have been automatic after that because I left the house and when I returned my daughter was deleriouly chatting - or wharever it is you do on msn. I only write all this because I am a rank newbie and figure if I can do this anyone can. Chris -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From aitken-BwLjziHGQLusTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 4 10:56:47 2003 From: aitken-BwLjziHGQLusTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Chris Aitken) Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 05:56:47 -0500 Subject: Alternative to GAIM References: <3FA5CCDD.3000004@sympatico.ca> <3FA72838.1E907D8A@onlink.net> <3FA81F49.5020801@iprimus.ca> <3FA730ED.A0B3CFE7@onlink.net> <3FA8601F.3050101@iprimus.ca> Message-ID: <3FA785EF.A363800@onlink.net> Clive DaSilva wrote: [...] > Hello Chris > > Not sure how to answer you. I did not run into any of those problems. I > was able tar -zxvf amsn.whatever.tar.gz to create a directory which > among other things had a compiled executable - amsn, which is working > for me right now. > > Not sure waht to suggest Ya, it turns out that right-clicking the downloads and choosing Save Link As didn't cut it - that just kept downloading links or somesuch. It wasn't until I started left-clicking (through all the redirections - and there were a few) that I finally downloaded a file that took more than a split-second. That was the real rpm - not the one named rpm but actually an html file. Eveything is fine now. My daughter is slumbering now with a head full of gossip and "hotties". zzz Chris -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From kris-y6ukv7ArdSHYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 5 06:50:40 2003 From: kris-y6ukv7ArdSHYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Kristofer Coward) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 01:50:40 -0500 Subject: PGP signatures In-Reply-To: <3FA7FE2B.1010001-FFYn/CNdgSA@public.gmane.org> References: <3FA7F429.30308@codemonkeys.org> <3FA7F787.2060401@yahoo.ca> <3FA7FB86.9030105@codemonkeys.org> <3FA7FE2B.1010001@yahoo.ca> Message-ID: <20031105065040.GG466@melon.org> On Tue, Nov 04, 2003 at 02:29:47PM -0500, Stephen Allen wrote: > >Is it really necessary to explain the benefits of encrypted/signed e-mail? > > Pray tell what are they on a public e-mail list? Do we really need to have > it verified, you are whom you say you are? I guess there are folks waiting > in the wings, just licking their chops at the opportunity, to spoof a from, > with your nick on it, to our little corner of the world. > :o) Well I still have yet to receive a PGP-signed spam, and believe it or not, most of you folks aren't on my anti-spam whitelist. -- Kristofer Coward http://unripe.melon.org/ GPG Fingerprint: 2BF3 957D 310A FEEC 4733 830E 21A4 05C7 1FEB 12B3 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 5 11:05:54 2003 From: fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Fraser Campbell) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 06:05:54 -0500 Subject: Fedora Linux In-Reply-To: <20031105030114.EEE7444BB-xzRQuAxiFLNWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org> References: <200311041532.28660.fraser@wehave.net> <59878.129.42.208.182.1067992236.squirrel@www.foolswisdom.com> <20031105030114.EEE7444BB@cbbrowne.com> Message-ID: <200311050605.54587.fraser@wehave.net> On November 4, 2003 10:01 pm, cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org wrote: > And there also lies another challenge; why should someone experiment > with contributing to Fedora which might fall as quickly as it rises when > they could join an already-strong network of Debian packagers? Fedora > needs to draw from that same set of people. Precisely and I don't see it happening. According to Redhat's CEO we should be running Windows on the desktop at home: http://zdnet.com.com/2100-1104-5101690.html Though there's some truth behind some of the statements I'm curious what Redhat's motivation is, perhaps they're preparing themselves to be bought by Microsoft? -- Fraser Campbell http://www.wehave.net/ Georgetown, Ontario, Canada Debian GNU/Linux -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 5 12:40:27 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 07:40:27 -0500 Subject: Fedora Linux In-Reply-To: <200311050605.54587.fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org> References: <200311041532.28660.fraser@wehave.net> <59878.129.42.208.182.1067992236.squirrel@www.foolswisdom.com> <20031105030114.EEE7444BB@cbbrowne.com> <200311050605.54587.fraser@wehave.net> Message-ID: <20031105074027.5881f4bf.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Wed, 5 Nov 2003 06:05:54 -0500 Fraser Campbell uttered: > Precisely and I don't see it happening. According to Redhat's CEO we > should be running Windows on the desktop at home: > > http://zdnet.com.com/2100-1104-5101690.html > > Though there's some truth behind some of the statements I'm curious > what Redhat's motivation is, perhaps they're preparing themselves to > be bought by Microsoft? This came up on the Mandrake list as well, and all I have to say to this schmuck is: EAT MY SHORTS! That's the least of it, actually, but you know, list etiquette and all... ;-) -- JoeHill Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ FORTUNE'S RULES TO LIVE BY: #2 Never goose a wolverine. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 5 13:10:59 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 08:10:59 -0500 Subject: Lindows still boots root by default? Message-ID: <20031105081059.7c9dc30c.joehill@sympatico.ca> Just saw this review of the latest Lindows OS, and it seems they still boot you into the GUI as root by default. I thought they were going to change that...? http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=5026 Not a very favourable review overall, but then again I don't think anyone should be using this POS anyway. Quote: "There are simply too few applications."Killer apps" that have been key to defining Linux's coming of age on the desktop are conspicuously absent. There doesn't appear to be a CD Ripper, an office suite, or a way to watch video files by default. There also doesn't seem to be a screenshot tool, an FTP program, any servers, a compiler, or any development tools. This seems a little too slim in the default offerings- while the target Lindows user may not need any of the latter, certainly the first group is now considered essential." -- JoeHill Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Only that in you which is me can hear what I'm saying. -- Baba Ram Dass -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lloyd-fEEwcc3XMu8jODpR/OX0VQ at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 5 13:42:15 2003 From: lloyd-fEEwcc3XMu8jODpR/OX0VQ at public.gmane.org (Lloyd D Budd) Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 08:42:15 -0500 Subject: Fedora Linux In-Reply-To: <20031105030114.EEE7444BB-xzRQuAxiFLNWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org> References: <200311041532.28660.fraser@wehave.net> <59878.129.42.208.182.1067992236.squirrel@www.foolswisdom.com> <20031105030114.EEE7444BB@cbbrowne.com> Message-ID: <1068039735.407.2717.camel@localhost> On Tue, 2003-11-04 at 22:01, cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org wrote: > Fedora will only _survive_ (and by that, I mean "not disappear as an > abject failure") if RHAT devotes serious resources to it; as serious as > they have been devoting to "Red Hat Linux." I disagree, but time will tell ;-) It will fail if RH is not available to the community, and if they try to push sales by ?continuing? to make their "Enterprise Linux" offerings source "obscure", and it is possibly concerning that the Fedora product website is hosted on RH's domain -- ie hopefully the community will be able to largely control what is posted. > If, instead, they depend on community contributions to replace their > efforts, then this requires that other people be convinced to donate the > assistance that RHAT has clearly demonstrated, by the fact of their > establishing this new distribution, they DON'T wish to give. I disagree here too, Fedora predates RHs decision. It was becoming a successful project http://www.fedora.us/ > For there to be any kind of success, a community has to _quickly_ > flourish around it, with a LOT of people joining in to manage one > package or another, and they'll have to go through the growing and > learning pains that the Debian project has already gone through in > establishing exactly that sort of distributed network of package > managers. > > And there also lies another challenge; why should someone experiment > with contributing to Fedora which might fall as quickly as it rises when > they could join an already-strong network of Debian packagers? Fedora > needs to draw from that same set of people. Debian is still too hard for many. I think this move may be a good thing for Mandrake -- though Mandrake felt "French" to me. I found http://www.linuxjournal.com/article.php?sid=7169 quite interesting, but if it is as the author suggests then I fear an outcome as you predict. The best thing that Fedora could do is for the core to stay snuggled up to the RH releases. This homogeneity would encourage the most likely users of Fedora to contribute to the community. I wonder how much resources RH currently "wastes" on the desktop product? -- by that I mean that too many groups are trying for a piece of that pie. Also most people suggest where many is (easiest?) to be made on the core Linux, is in support -- and communities are too good at providing free support ;-) If RH chooses / is able to focus more resources on their server products, it may mean very good things for Redhat and Linux. Cheers, Lloyd -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 5 14:15:13 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 09:15:13 -0500 Subject: Microsoft not off the hook yet Message-ID: <20031105091513.1af829df.joehill@sympatico.ca> Got this from Salon.com, you need to "get a free day pass" to read the whole article, but I thought I would post some of it to illustrate further why I feel the way I do about MS, as some have questioned my supporting reasoning. This part is particularly interesting, at least to me: "The appeals court agreed in June 2001 that Microsoft illegally abused its monopoly with Windows software. It was expected to decide in coming months whether the Bush administration and 19 states negotiated adequate antitrust sanctions in a court-approved settlement. The attorney general in one state, Tom Reilly of Massachusetts, and two anti-Microsoft trade organizations want tougher penalties. Reilly has argued that the settlement was so profoundly flawed that its approval by U.S. District Judge Colleen Kollar-Kotelly represented an abuse of her discretion. "There's no indication there's going to be a major reworking, but there is some reason to believe that a rubber stamp is not in order, either," said Andrew Gavil, a law professor at Howard University. Robert Bork, former appeals judge representing Microsoft's rivals, told the circuit judges the settlement was "utterly inadequate." He complained that the government settled the case after it had already won significant courtroom victories, which is highly unusual." Not so highly unusual when you consider that the Bush Administration have/had close ties with MS, no? http://money.cnn.com/2000/04/11/companies/microsoft/ http://linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2000-03-02-006-06-PS -- JoeHill Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ You can't take it with you -- especially when crossing a state line. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From tiliescu-ZdyLq7YhDA8hunQcOVOuvCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 5 14:20:52 2003 From: tiliescu-ZdyLq7YhDA8hunQcOVOuvCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Teodor Iliescu) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 09:20:52 -0500 (EST) Subject: backup stratagems In-Reply-To: <3FA852DC.700-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FA852DC.700@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, 4 Nov 2003, David J Patrick wrote: > What do you use ? > ..discuss .. Something I wrote. It works with cd-r's. If you want to use cd-rws, just add blank=fast, in the cdrecord pipe. Run it as root, of course. ------------------ #!/usr/bin/ksh if [ "$USER" != "root" ] then echo You must be root to run this program! exit 1 else echo "You are logged in as root. Executing program." sleep 1 fi echo "Unmounting /dev/cdrom, if it is mounted:" umount /dev/cdrom 2> /dev/null echo "Starting backup..." >> log echo "Backup started at" `date` by user $USER >> log echo "Going up to /home/ directory" cd /home echo "Starting tarball, excluding oggs..." tar czvf tiliescu-`date "+%A.%B.%d"`.tar.gz --exclude=*.ogg tiliescu | tee -a `date "+%A.%B.%d"` mkdir backup mv tiliescu-`date "+%A.%B.%d"`.tar.gz `date "+%A.%B.%d"` backup && echo "Moved files successfully to backup dir" #Let's actually burn the data. echo Starting real backup of data ; sleep 1 mkisofs -J -R /home/backup | cdrecord dev=0,0,0 speed=16 -eject -v - && echo "Burning of data successfull!" if [ $? -eq 0 ] then cd - echo Burning successfull! >> log echo Burning finished at `date` >> log else cd - echo Burning failed at `date` >> log fi #Let's do a little clean up. rm -rf /home/backup -------------------- -- Teodor I. http://penguincomputing.iwarp.com GPG key fingerprint : 9AC8 A05C 78AD AD73 91DB CBE4 B644 F402 FBFD 5927 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 4 23:36:33 2003 From: hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org (Howard Gibson) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 18:36:33 -0500 Subject: MARKEM Network Services - BOUNCE In-Reply-To: <3FA77163.3000203-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FA76B8B.7010004@sympatico.ca> <3FA77163.3000203@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <20031104183633.6884e9a3.hgibson@eol.ca> On Tue, 04 Nov 2003 10:29:07 +0100 David J Patrick wrote: > do ya think it would have anything to do with the phrase "anal probe" > that was in my original post ? > (sheesh ! that's a _medical_ term ;-) > I'm gonna cut some eyeholes in the tin foil and get ON with it ! > djp David, My bounce was caused either by telling someone to get a Promise card, or by sending an email with references to Gnome, FVWM2 and Nautilus. I had no idea of how obscene this all is. I feel so evil. :) -- Howard Gibson hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org howard-42qnO8ePF9cV+D8aMU/kSg at public.gmane.org http://home.eol.ca/~hgibson -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 5 15:59:12 2003 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 10:59:12 -0500 Subject: Nautilus problem as user in RH9 Message-ID: <3FA91E50.9060909@alteeve.com> Hi all, I am putting together a machine here with RH9. I created a user and everything seemed to be working fine until (as the user, not root) I tried to launch Nautilus (specifically, clicking on the user's home icon). Anyway, nothing happens. If I open a terminal window and type nautilus (as the user) it simply falls back to the prompt, no error at all. If I 'su' then launch Natilus though, it opens fine. This is a very stock install. Except for updating and adding a few apps (ie. OpenOffice, Acrobat) there has been nothing done to this machine. If you don't know why this is happening, would anyone know at least where Nautilus logs errors to? I checked '/var/log/messages' and '/var/log/XFree86.0.log' with no luck. Thanks!! Madison -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 5 16:25:11 2003 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 11:25:11 -0500 Subject: Nautilus problem as user in RH9 In-Reply-To: <3FA91E50.9060909-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <3FA91E50.9060909@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <3FA92467.6070109@alteeve.com> Never mind. ;) Turned out it ws a dead process (or something like that). I id a 'ps -ax | grep nautilus' and killed the top PID and imidiately it started working. Thanks anyway, everyone! Madison Madison Kelly wrote: > Hi all, > > I am putting together a machine here with RH9. I created a user and > everything seemed to be working fine until (as the user, not root) I > tried to launch Nautilus (specifically, clicking on the user's home > icon). Anyway, nothing happens. If I open a terminal window and type > nautilus (as the user) it simply falls back to the prompt, no error at > all. If I 'su' then launch Natilus though, it opens fine. > > This is a very stock install. Except for updating and adding a few > apps (ie. OpenOffice, Acrobat) there has been nothing done to this > machine. If you don't know why this is happening, would anyone know at > least where Nautilus logs errors to? I checked '/var/log/messages' and > '/var/log/XFree86.0.log' with no luck. > > Thanks!! > > Madison > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From dt-hKuJ9UrQZDM at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 5 05:36:28 2003 From: dt-hKuJ9UrQZDM at public.gmane.org (David Tilbrook) Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 00:36:28 -0500 Subject: question w.r.t. fvwm2 Direction command Message-ID: <3FA88C5C.A043C38B@qef.com> I currently have shifted arrow keys set as: # press shift arrow, and move focus Key Left A S Direction West (CurrentDesk) Focus Key Up A S Direction North (CurrentDesk) Focus Key Right A S Direction East (CurrentDesk) Focus Key Down A S Direction South (CurrentDesk) Focus This works well except that the FvwmPager gets in the way. Most of the time focus will move to the next window in the appropriate direction, but not if the FvwmPager is in the way, in which case nothing happens. I've tried putting in the condition !Sticky, but that just appears to turn off the feature everywhere. Any ideas? -- dt -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From pmills-5bG9SNWDbRX3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 5 17:38:14 2003 From: pmills-5bG9SNWDbRX3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Phillip Mills) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 12:38:14 -0500 Subject: [OT]User agreement In-Reply-To: <3FA88C5C.A043C38B-hKuJ9UrQZDM@public.gmane.org> References: <3FA88C5C.A043C38B@qef.com> Message-ID: A couple of days ago I finished Scott Adams' _The Way of the Weasel_ (which I heartily recommend to everyone, BTW). Today I read an ISP's terms and conditions regarding high-speed service. To the naive, these might seem to be discrete events. In essence, we the ISP claim: 1) We advertise a monthly rate, but we've redefined 'month'...'year' likewise. 2) In spite of any signed agreement, we can change the pricing. If you don't pay the extra -- even if you've already paid in advance -- it's called 'voluntary termination'. 3) In spite of any signed agreement, we can change the services or the way they're accessed. If you don't like it: 'voluntary termination'. 4) With regard to the signed agreement, we can change any of the terms or cancel it at any time for any reason. 5) Voluntary termination means we keep all prepayments. 6) Any communication on these or other matters that we send you is deemed received 3 days after being sent. If you send it to us, however, it's only received if we send you a confirmation. I don't think these weasels are going to be my new provider. :-) (Does anyone EXCEPT an eff'ing weasel ever use the word 'deemed'?) ........................ Phillip Mills Multi-platform software development (416) 224-0714 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 5 17:49:58 2003 From: davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (David J Patrick) Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 12:49:58 -0500 Subject: MARKEM Network Services - BOUNCE In-Reply-To: <20031104183633.6884e9a3.hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ@public.gmane.org> References: <3FA76B8B.7010004@sympatico.ca> <3FA77163.3000203@sympatico.ca> <20031104183633.6884e9a3.hgibson@eol.ca> Message-ID: <3FA93846.60305@sympatico.ca> Howard Gibson wrote: >On Tue, 04 Nov 2003 10:29:07 +0100 >David J Patrick wrote: > > > >>do ya think it would have anything to do with the phrase "anal probe" >>that was in my original post ? >> (sheesh ! that's a _medical_ term ;-) >> I'm gonna cut some eyeholes in the tin foil and get ON with it ! >>djp >> >> > >David, > > My bounce was caused either by telling someone to get a Promise card, or by sending an email with references to Gnome, FVWM2 and Nautilus. I had no idea of how obscene this all is. > > I feel so evil. :) > > > Well evil is a matter of perspective .. and if you work in a big building in Redmond the Gnome is out ta getcha ! BOUNCE ! djp -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From JimS-pFJmkVL1u50 at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 5 18:22:27 2003 From: JimS-pFJmkVL1u50 at public.gmane.org (Jim Skehill) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 13:22:27 -0500 Subject: Fedora Linux Message-ID: <33678E78A2DD4D418396703A750048D4460B96@RIKER> Aha, that would explain this web site http://www.mslinux.org/ -----Original Message----- ... Though there's some truth behind some of the statements I'm curious what Redhat's motivation is, perhaps they're preparing themselves to be bought by Microsoft? -- Fraser Campbell http://www.wehave.net/ Georgetown, Ontario, Canada Debian GNU/Linux -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 5 19:59:41 2003 From: cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org (cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org) Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 14:59:41 -0500 Subject: Fedora Linux In-Reply-To: Message from Lloyd D Budd of "Wed, 05 Nov 2003 08:42:15 EST." <1068039735.407.2717.camel-bi+AKbBUZKZeoWH0uzbU5w@public.gmane.org> References: <200311041532.28660.fraser@wehave.net> <59878.129.42.208.182.1067992236.squirrel@www.foolswisdom.com> <20031105030114.EEE7444BB@cbbrowne.com> <1068039735.407.2717.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <20031105195942.9E46344BB@cbbrowne.com> Lloyd Budd wrote: > > And there also lies another challenge; why should someone experiment > > with contributing to Fedora which might fall as quickly as it rises when > > they could join an already-strong network of Debian packagers? Fedora > > needs to draw from that same set of people. > > Debian is still too hard for many. This should influence people to move from the network of Debian packagers to Fedora precisely why? Furthermore, this should influence people who _are_ capable of building packages to prefer the paucity of package management tools for Fedora precisely why? (e.g. - debconf, lintian, fakeroot, debhelper, debmake, cvs-buildpackage, ...) And as near as I can tell, the people to whom Debian is "too hard" are those that wind up with Red Hat systems that are questionably configured and susceptible to rootkitting. They may have won, in the process, a system that they simply can't manage. > I found http://www.linuxjournal.com/article.php?sid=7169 quite > interesting, but if it is as the author suggests then I fear an > outcome as you predict. The best thing that Fedora could do is for > the core to stay snuggled up to the RH releases. This homogeneity > would encourage the most likely users of Fedora to contribute to the > community. For it to stay thus "snuggled" requires that RHAT be highly interventionist in their management of it, which would discourage outsiders from participating, and prevent it from growing into a 'community' effort. -- "cbbrowne","@","acm.org" http://cbbrowne.com/info/wp.html "They're deleting the word `gullible' from modern dictionaries, presumably because it's too difficult a concept for the modern man or woman to understand." -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 5 20:07:16 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 15:07:16 -0500 Subject: Help w/ Biz name Message-ID: <20031105150716.77aca814.joehill@sympatico.ca> I'm in the process of getting incorporated, nothing big, just a sideline for now, wherein hopefully I will be able to provide assistance to those less technically inclined, primarily in my local area but hopefully eventually around the GTA. I wonder if anyone has any suggestions for a name. I have come up with a few already, but I'm hoping someone can provide some alternatives just in case mine are all taken. What I'm looking for is a name that obviously implies "support" of a technical nature, but with an air of friendliness and and a sense of "community" or "neighborhood" to it. All suggestions welcome, even sarcastic or derisive ones if yer in that kinda mood ;-) -- JoeHill Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ If you only have a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail. -- Maslow -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 5 20:15:30 2003 From: davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (David J Patrick) Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 15:15:30 -0500 Subject: Fedora Linux In-Reply-To: <1068039735.407.2717.camel-bi+AKbBUZKZeoWH0uzbU5w@public.gmane.org> References: <200311041532.28660.fraser@wehave.net> <59878.129.42.208.182.1067992236.squirrel@www.foolswisdom.com> <20031105030114.EEE7444BB@cbbrowne.com> <1068039735.407.2717.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <3FA95A62.60205@sympatico.ca> >Debian is still too hard for many. I think this move may be a good >thing for Mandrake -- though Mandrake felt "French" to me. > > Fedora will undoubtedly flourish, but I suspect that all roads eventually lead to debian. While apt-get, for the CLI set, is easy, show a windoze user installation Synaptic and they will begin to drool. IMHO the only thing missing, from the otherwise awesome debian, is a ControlCentre ! A central, intelligent and (ablove all) GUI way to handly the otherwise arcane system variables. (something like the Mdk Control Center) that is all .. ;-) djp -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lloyd-fEEwcc3XMu8jODpR/OX0VQ at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 5 21:19:58 2003 From: lloyd-fEEwcc3XMu8jODpR/OX0VQ at public.gmane.org (lloyd-fEEwcc3XMu8jODpR/OX0VQ at public.gmane.org) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 16:19:58 -0500 (EST) Subject: Fedora Linux In-Reply-To: <20031105195942.9E46344BB-xzRQuAxiFLNWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org> References: <200311041532.28660.fraser@wehave.net> <59878.129.42.208.182.1067992236.squirrel@www.foolswisdom.com> <20031105030114.EEE7444BB@cbbrowne.com> <1068039735.407.2717.camel@localhost> <20031105195942.9E46344BB@cbbrowne.com> Message-ID: <56675.129.42.208.182.1068067198.squirrel@www.foolswisdom.com> > Lloyd Budd wrote: >> > And there also lies another challenge; why should someone experiment >> with contributing to Fedora which might fall as quickly as it rises >> when they could join an already-strong network of Debian packagers? >> Fedora needs to draw from that same set of people. >> >> Debian is still too hard for many. > > This should influence people to move from the network of Debian > packagers to Fedora precisely why? Errr, you mention "join [...] Debian". I was not suggesting that this will win anyone away from Debian. Retention of *useful* RH Users is what is important. If no one is skilled and wants to be skilled on RH, then RH will fail. > Furthermore, this should influence people who _are_ capable of building > packages to prefer the paucity of package management tools for Fedora > precisely why? (e.g. - debconf, lintian, fakeroot, debhelper, debmake, > cvs-buildpackage, ...) See initial errr. Speaking of package management and becoming a packager, if that it is part of one's motivation "the opinion" seems to be that Gentoo is easier to learn and maintain packages for, but still has some way to go to be as 'flawless' as Debian. It is interesting though that the comments back from that article that I provided a link to seemed most concerned that Fedora is not giving enough focus on making their pkg mngmnt Debian enough. > And as near as I can tell, the people to whom Debian is "too hard" are > those that wind up with Red Hat systems that are questionably configured > and susceptible to rootkitting. They may have won, in the process, a > system that they simply can't manage. FUD. Red Hat's available system administration and more-so Enterprise Administration Tools are at least as good as Debian's. >> I found http://www.linuxjournal.com/article.php?sid=7169 quite >> interesting, but if it is as the author suggests then I fear an >> outcome as you predict. The best thing that Fedora could do is for >> the core to stay snuggled up to the RH releases. This homogeneity >> would encourage the most likely users of Fedora to contribute to the >> community. > > For it to stay thus "snuggled" requires that RHAT be highly > interventionist in their management of it, which would discourage > outsiders from participating, and prevent it from growing into a > 'community' effort. Well not if they estable a few releases/branches -- this is one of the successes of Debian. Also, I am referring to the core. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 5 20:21:14 2003 From: davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (David J Patrick) Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 15:21:14 -0500 Subject: Help w/ Biz name In-Reply-To: <20031105150716.77aca814.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <20031105150716.77aca814.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <3FA95BBA.9080402@sympatico.ca> JoeHill wrote: >I'm in the process of getting incorporated, nothing big, just a sideline >for now, wherein hopefully I will be able to provide assistance to those >less technically inclined, primarily in my local area but hopefully >eventually around the GTA. > >I wonder if anyone has any suggestions for a name. I have come up with a >few already, but I'm hoping someone can provide some alternatives just >in case mine are all taken. > >What I'm looking for is a name that obviously implies "support" of a >technical nature, but with an air of friendliness and and a sense of >"community" or "neighborhood" to it. > >All suggestions welcome, even sarcastic or derisive ones if yer in that >kinda mood ;-) > > > Ya gotta BRAINSTORM, Joe ! gimme 50 words that pop into your head, that are relevent to you endevour; support, community, Toronto, linux, penguin, computer, tech, system, Joe, Hill, ... ummmm what were we talking about ? tell me more ! riff out, man , at this stage it doesn't have to make sense ! What does it _feel_ like ? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 5 20:22:07 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 15:22:07 -0500 Subject: Fedora Linux In-Reply-To: <3FA95A62.60205-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <200311041532.28660.fraser@wehave.net> <59878.129.42.208.182.1067992236.squirrel@www.foolswisdom.com> <20031105030114.EEE7444BB@cbbrowne.com> <1068039735.407.2717.camel@localhost> <3FA95A62.60205@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <20031105152207.6ae44038.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Wed, 05 Nov 2003 15:15:30 -0500 David J Patrick uttered: > A central, intelligent and (ablove all) GUI way to handly the > otherwise arcane system variables. Webmin should do tha trick there, mate. You would not believe the many and varied tools available through this wondrous interface. Does Apache, User management, Postfix, sets cron jobs, whatever you want. -- JoeHill Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ A dream will always triumph over reality, once it is given the chance. -- Stanislaw Lem -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From awh-z32R3RYGf1M at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 5 20:27:23 2003 From: awh-z32R3RYGf1M at public.gmane.org (Drew Hamilton) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 15:27:23 -0500 Subject: Help w/ Biz name In-Reply-To: <20031105150716.77aca814.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <20031105150716.77aca814.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <20031105202723.GA32422%awh@awh.org> On Wed, Nov 05, 2003 at 03:07:16PM -0500, JoeHill wrote: > What I'm looking for is a name that obviously implies "support" of a > technical nature, but with an air of friendliness and and a sense of > "community" or "neighborhood" to it. How about Friendly Community Neighbourhood Support? Sorry, you *did* say that sarcastic suggestions were welcome... - awh -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 5 20:29:01 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 15:29:01 -0500 Subject: Help w/ Biz name In-Reply-To: <3FA95BBA.9080402-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <20031105150716.77aca814.joehill@sympatico.ca> <3FA95BBA.9080402@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <20031105152901.45f32a3c.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Wed, 05 Nov 2003 15:21:14 -0500 David J Patrick uttered: > Ya gotta BRAINSTORM, Joe ! > gimme 50 words that pop into your head, that are relevent to you > endevour; > support, community, Toronto, linux, penguin, computer, tech, system, > Joe, Hill, ... ummmm > what were we talking about ? tell me more ! riff out, man , at > this > stage it doesn't have to make sense ! What does it _feel_ like ? community, support, tech, I already got swishing around. System is good, thanks! I'd rather leave names like Toronto out of it, might be hassles involved with those... Gonna go rake some leafs and clear my head, maybe that'll help... ;-) -- JoeHill Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ In the long run we are all dead. -- John Maynard Keynes -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 5 20:30:33 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 15:30:33 -0500 Subject: Help w/ Biz name In-Reply-To: <20031105202723.GA32422%awh-z32R3RYGf1M@public.gmane.org> References: <20031105150716.77aca814.joehill@sympatico.ca> <20031105202723.GA32422%awh@awh.org> Message-ID: <20031105153033.022c7b61.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Wed, 5 Nov 2003 15:27:23 -0500 Drew Hamilton uttered: > Sorry, you *did* say that sarcastic suggestions were welcome... In all honesty, that's not half bad :-D -- JoeHill Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Reality is nothing but a collective hunch. -- Lily Tomlin -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From talexb-SBdzbUvMQDunS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 5 20:35:32 2003 From: talexb-SBdzbUvMQDunS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org (talexb-SBdzbUvMQDunS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 15:35:32 -0500 (EST) Subject: Help w/ Biz name In-Reply-To: <20031105150716.77aca814.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <20031105150716.77aca814.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: Joe, A few come to mind .. -> Computer Rescue (from Animal Rescue) -> Lifeguard Systems (always on guard) -> Geek On Call -> High Tech Help -> Geek Does Windows (not much help if you specialize in Linux) Alex -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 5 19:22:09 2003 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter L. Peres) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 21:22:09 +0200 (IST) Subject: S.M.A.R.T. ... is it? In-Reply-To: <200311041718.46261.fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org> References: <200311041718.46261.fraser@wehave.net> Message-ID: > Has anyone ever seen, or heard, of smart actually predicting a failure or is > it just useless noise in my logfiles? In theory SMART will tell you about problems some time before they happen. Most modern ide drives hide all errors from users (such as bad sectors). The SMART is supposed to be a way around this and let you know when errors do happen in despite of the HDD firmware hiding them. Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 5 21:46:59 2003 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter L. Peres) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 23:46:59 +0200 (IST) Subject: Help w/ Biz name In-Reply-To: <20031105150716.77aca814.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <20031105150716.77aca814.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: > All suggestions welcome, even sarcastic or derisive ones if yer in that > kinda mood ;-) Commie ? Startup ? Joe ? Hill ? Red Joe Rising ? Or in GNU recursive style (assuming you are not redheaded): Not Red Joe (Rising) just kidding, good luck, Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 5 21:48:31 2003 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter L. Peres) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 23:48:31 +0200 (IST) Subject: Help w/ Biz name In-Reply-To: <20031105202723.GA32422%awh-z32R3RYGf1M@public.gmane.org> References: <20031105150716.77aca814.joehill@sympatico.ca> <20031105202723.GA32422%awh@awh.org> Message-ID: > How about Friendly Community Neighbourhood Support? Don't forget to add 'we do not fix toilets' in small, but not too small print. Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 5 21:42:10 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 16:42:10 -0500 Subject: Help w/ Biz name In-Reply-To: References: <20031105150716.77aca814.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <20031105164210.0cb7aba5.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Wed, 5 Nov 2003 23:46:59 +0200 (IST) "Peter L. Peres" uttered: > > just kidding, good luck, LOL! Thanks...the first anarcho-communist incorporation in Canadian history? -- JoeHill Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ If the master dies and the disciple grieves, the lives of both have been wasted. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jzygmont-tEQKYFGiemxAYG7eUwYNkWD2FQJk+8+b at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 5 22:06:47 2003 From: jzygmont-tEQKYFGiemxAYG7eUwYNkWD2FQJk+8+b at public.gmane.org (Justin Zygmont) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 17:06:47 -0500 (EST) Subject: Help w/ Biz name In-Reply-To: <20031105202723.GA32422%awh-z32R3RYGf1M@public.gmane.org> References: <20031105202723.GA32422%awh@awh.org> Message-ID: I was going to say "Pir8 Warez 4 U" How's that one? :) On Wed, 5 Nov 2003, Drew Hamilton wrote: > On Wed, Nov 05, 2003 at 03:07:16PM -0500, JoeHill wrote: > > What I'm looking for is a name that obviously implies "support" of a > > technical nature, but with an air of friendliness and and a sense of > > "community" or "neighborhood" to it. > > How about Friendly Community Neighbourhood Support? > > Sorry, you *did* say that sarcastic suggestions were welcome... > > - awh > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 5 22:44:38 2003 From: davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (David J Patrick) Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 17:44:38 -0500 Subject: symlink for /usr/ Message-ID: <3FA97D56.4020205@sympatico.ca> I have 60gig of HD broken up into many partitions. A while ago, I successfully moved the contents of my /home/ directories by plunking symlinks to another (10gig hda8) partition but the good times have come to an end and now my root partition (6 gig hda6) is FULL ! Yes, I'm aware, that's a potentail BAD thing. Is there any reason why I couldn't just move the contents of /usr/ to another partition and similarly symlink ? Is there a strong argument for doing it the right way ? editing fstab to point to mount /usr/ at another location ? I was bitten last time I tried it. Of course, this operation will have to be performed under the anesthetic of knoppix. Got any better ideas ? thanks, djp -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From mr6re9-mI4xJ4qlgtBiLUuM0BA3LQ at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 5 22:49:08 2003 From: mr6re9-mI4xJ4qlgtBiLUuM0BA3LQ at public.gmane.org (GDHough) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 17:49:08 -0500 Subject: Microsoft not off the hook yet In-Reply-To: <20031105091513.1af829df.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <20031105091513.1af829df.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <200311051749.08761.mr6re9@execulink.com> On Wednesday 05 November 2003 09:15, JoeHill wrote: > > This part is particularly interesting, at least to me: > > "The appeals court agreed in June 2001 that Microsoft illegally abused > its monopoly with Windows software. It was expected to decide in coming > months whether the Bush administration and 19 states negotiated adequate > antitrust sanctions in a court-approved settlement. > What would you like to see happen Joel? I'd be happy if them WinBoxes would just stop pinging... -- Eating Crow is better with MyCrowSauce -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 5 23:19:47 2003 From: cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org (cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org) Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 18:19:47 -0500 Subject: Fedora Linux In-Reply-To: Message from of "Wed, 05 Nov 2003 16:19:58 EST." <56675.129.42.208.182.1068067198.squirrel-zSS9becEkFt1ArK9tKgR/kEOCMrvLtNR@public.gmane.org> References: <200311041532.28660.fraser@wehave.net> <59878.129.42.208.182.1067992236.squirrel@www.foolswisdom.com> <20031105030114.EEE7444BB@cbbrowne.com> <1068039735.407.2717.camel@localhost> <20031105195942.9E46344BB@cbbrowne.com> <56675.129.42.208.182.1068067198.squirrel@www.foolswisdom.com> Message-ID: <20031105231948.BD48444BB@cbbrowne.com> > > Lloyd Budd wrote: > >> > And there also lies another challenge; why should someone experiment > >> with contributing to Fedora which might fall as quickly as it rises > >> when they could join an already-strong network of Debian packagers? > >> Fedora needs to draw from that same set of people. > >> > >> Debian is still too hard for many. > > > > This should influence people to move from the network of Debian > > packagers to Fedora precisely why? > Errr, you mention "join [...] Debian". I was not suggesting that this > will win anyone away from Debian. Retention of *useful* RH Users is > what is important. If no one is skilled and wants to be skilled on > RH, then RH will fail. > > Furthermore, this should influence people who _are_ capable of building > > packages to prefer the paucity of package management tools for Fedora > > precisely why? (e.g. - debconf, lintian, fakeroot, debhelper, debmake, > > cvs-buildpackage, ...) > See initial errr. > Speaking of package management and becoming a packager, if that it is > part of one's motivation "the opinion" seems to be that Gentoo is > easier to learn and maintain packages for, but still has some way to > go to be as 'flawless' as Debian. > It is interesting though that the comments back from that article that > I provided a link to > seemed most > concerned that Fedora is not giving enough focus on making their pkg > mngmnt Debian enough. Right. I have LONG argued that a _severe_ problem in the "RPM world" is that they haven't had NEARLY enough tools publicly available to help out with the "software engineering" side of managing distributions. Too much of the management of Red Hat Linux was internal to RHAT engineers; ditto for all the others. >> And as near as I can tell, the people to whom Debian is "too hard" >> are those that wind up with Red Hat systems that are questionably >> configured and susceptible to rootkitting. They may have won, in the >> process, a system that they simply can't manage. > FUD. Red Hat's available system administration and more-so Enterprise > Administration Tools are at least as good as Debian's. They ALL include the very same webmin and cfengine tool sets. They have the SAME nagios tool set. I'm afraid I don't see the difference. > >> I found http://www.linuxjournal.com/article.php?sid=7169 quite > >> interesting, but if it is as the author suggests then I fear an > >> outcome as you predict. The best thing that Fedora could do is for > >> the core to stay snuggled up to the RH releases. This homogeneity > >> would encourage the most likely users of Fedora to contribute to the > >> community. > > > > For it to stay thus "snuggled" requires that RHAT be highly > > interventionist in their management of it, which would discourage > > outsiders from participating, and prevent it from growing into a > > 'community' effort. > Well not if they estable a few releases/branches -- this is one of the > successes of Debian. Also, I am referring to the core. You are missing the "political process" point. In order for "Fedora Linux" to be tightly tied to whatever RHAT is releasing requires that it be kept, _politically_, on a very short leash that is pulled by Red Hat Software. If it is kept on such a short leash, then that will discourage public participation, which will prevent it from thriving as a "community effort." A policy that makes it an "experimental" version of RHAT's production releases prevents it from being "community driven." You can't have both things within the same political process. -- let name="cbbrowne" and tld="ntlug.org" in String.concat "@" [name;tld];; http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/nonrdbms.html "Problem solving under linux has never been the circus that it is under AIX." -- Pete Ehlke in comp.unix.aix -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lists-Gb8Tj4xcA4YgsBAKwltoeQ at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 5 23:39:11 2003 From: lists-Gb8Tj4xcA4YgsBAKwltoeQ at public.gmane.org (Byron Q. Desnoyers Winmill) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 18:39:11 -0500 (EST) Subject: symlink for /usr/ In-Reply-To: <3FA97D56.4020205-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FA97D56.4020205@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, 5 Nov 2003, David J Patrick wrote: > Is there a strong argument for doing it the right way ? editing fstab to > point to mount /usr/ at another location ? /usr is supposed to be on a separate file system. It is safe to put it on its own partition. It should be safe to shuffle it to a partition which you are using for something else, then symlink it. IIRC, everything you need to boot is in /bin, /etc, /sbin, and maybe /boot and /lib. The rest of the system can pull itself up from there. Byron. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From marcus.brubaker-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 6 00:23:48 2003 From: marcus.brubaker-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Marcus Brubaker) Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 19:23:48 -0500 Subject: Fedora Linux In-Reply-To: <20031105152207.6ae44038.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <200311041532.28660.fraser@wehave.net> <59878.129.42.208.182.1067992236.squirrel@www.foolswisdom.com> <20031105030114.EEE7444BB@cbbrowne.com> <1068039735.407.2717.camel@localhost> <3FA95A62.60205@sympatico.ca> <20031105152207.6ae44038.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <1068078227.20337.26.camel@rincewind.discworld> On Wed, 2003-11-05 at 15:22, JoeHill wrote: > On Wed, 05 Nov 2003 15:15:30 -0500 > David J Patrick uttered: > > > A central, intelligent and (ablove all) GUI way to handly the > > otherwise arcane system variables. > > Webmin should do tha trick there, mate. You would not believe the many > and varied tools available through this wondrous interface. > > Does Apache, User management, Postfix, sets cron jobs, whatever you > want. As a techie I whole-hearted agree here. Webmin is a beautiful package (although I could really wish they had chosen a better front end than http) but would fail miserably for what I think David was after. Marketing to desktop users means marketing to people who aren't likely to want to configure apache, postfix, bind, sendmail or any of the other dozens of packages webmin supports. They want things like "what devices are connected", "how do i configure my network connection", "where do I change the default screensaver", "where can I configure my proxies" and other such things. I think a really promising package along these lines is the combination of the GNOME Control Center (since around 2.4) and Gnome System Tools. In some ways the jury is still very much out with respect to GST. "Just working" with each distribution is not an easy task, especially when you have the lofty goal of not destroying the config files or running a parallel "configuration database" (a la the well intentioned, but ill-fated linuxconf). I may be diverging a bit here, but this is sadly a really hard problem to solve. For one, I don't think most vendors want it solved. Easy-to-use, well integrated system configuration is something that vendors are well positioned to do and can easily distinguish themselves with. Beyond that you have a whole crowd of UNIX purists that will scream bloody murder if you try to overhaul linux/unix system configuration in a coherent and modern way. (Albeit, there is definitely a lot of validity in the argument that the current config system (ie, none/ad hoc text files) works so don't fix it.) So even if the vendors *did* want to work on standardizing these things (through the LSB or some such) they risk pissing off a good contingent of users and getting to keep both pieces of a stillborn standard. (And we all know how many of those there are....) Enough rambling for now. Back to my parallel computation homework... -- Marcus Brubaker -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 6 01:02:49 2003 From: davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (David J Patrick) Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 20:02:49 -0500 Subject: Fedora Linux In-Reply-To: <1068078227.20337.26.camel-eTg7c9BlEq95hrpxxnI5yFifK/mc/01a@public.gmane.org> References: <200311041532.28660.fraser@wehave.net> <59878.129.42.208.182.1067992236.squirrel@www.foolswisdom.com> <20031105030114.EEE7444BB@cbbrowne.com> <1068039735.407.2717.camel@localhost> <3FA95A62.60205@sympatico.ca> <20031105152207.6ae44038.joehill@sympatico.ca> <1068078227.20337.26.camel@rincewind.discworld> Message-ID: <3FA99DB9.9080700@sympatico.ca> Marcus Brubaker wrote: >On Wed, 2003-11-05 at 15:22, JoeHill wrote: > > >>On Wed, 05 Nov 2003 15:15:30 -0500 >>David J Patrick uttered: >> >> >> >>>A central, intelligent and (ablove all) GUI way to handly the >>>otherwise arcane system variables. >>> >>> >>Webmin should do tha trick there, mate. You would not believe the many >>and varied tools available through this wondrous interface. >> >>Does Apache, User management, Postfix, sets cron jobs, whatever you >>want. >> >> > >As a techie I whole-hearted agree here. Webmin is a beautiful package >(although I could really wish they had chosen a better front end than >http) but would fail miserably for what I think David was after. > > Yes and no; I'm going to explore webmin, as it my address my admin needs. Yet, I doubt that those new(er) to linux (esp. debian) would find it an appropriate solution. >Marketing to desktop users means marketing to people who aren't likely >to want to configure apache, postfix, bind, sendmail or any of the other >dozens of packages webmin supports. They want things like "what devices >are connected", "how do i configure my network connection", "where do I >change the default screensaver", "where can I configure my proxies" and >other such things. > > I think a really promising package along these lines is the combination >of the GNOME Control Center (since around 2.4) and Gnome System Tools. >In some ways the jury is still very much out with respect to GST. "Just >working" with each distribution is not an easy task, especially when you >have the lofty goal of not destroying the config files or running a >parallel "configuration database" (a la the well intentioned, but >ill-fated linuxconf). > > I though linuxconf was the bees knees! Where d'it go ? >I may be diverging a bit here, but this is sadly a really hard problem >to solve. For one, I don't think most vendors want it solved. >Easy-to-use, well integrated system configuration is something that >vendors are well positioned to do and can easily distinguish themselves >with. Beyond that you have a whole crowd of UNIX purists that will >scream bloody murder if you try to overhaul linux/unix system >configuration in a coherent and modern way. (Albeit, there is >definitely a lot of validity in the argument that the current config >system (ie, none/ad hoc text files) works so don't fix it.) So even if >the vendors *did* want to work on standardizing these things (through >the LSB or some such) they risk pissing off a good contingent of users >and getting to keep both pieces of a stillborn standard. (And we all >know how many of those there are....) > >Enough rambling for now. Back to my parallel computation homework... > > If linux contunues to standardize, which it must to survive, I can only imagine that GUI tools could be developed to compliment the existing morass of text file based configuration. power users can carry on unhindered, by GUI and those with less expertise will have a shot at keeping their boxes working. No conflict, right ? in the mean time it's man this and man that with a healthy dose of TLUG wtf ??? djp -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 6 01:10:37 2003 From: davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (David J Patrick) Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 20:10:37 -0500 Subject: what the fsck ? Message-ID: <3FA99F8D.1090504@sympatico.ca> my hdb drive show strange symptoms; occasionally, when reading the drive, the box will lock up solid. This behaviour is intermittant. I just umounted the drive and ran fsck on two partitions. hdb7 (10gig ext3) came up clean but hdb1 (6gig vfat) had problems; root at PIII500:/mnt/hda8/djp# fsck /mnt/hdb1 fsck 1.35-WIP (21-Aug-2003) dosfsck 2.10, 22 Sep 2003, FAT32, LFN Reclaimed 333 unused clusters (1363968 bytes). Free cluster summary wrong (658356 vs. really 662047) 1) Correct 2) Don't correct ? 1 Leaving file system unchanged. /dev/hdb1: 12380 files, 358084/1020131 clusters can fsck correct errors on vfat ? Are there other drive health tools I should know about ? thanks, djp -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 6 01:25:00 2003 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 20:25:00 -0500 Subject: [OT] HTML "brag-tag" question Message-ID: <20031106012500.GA27953@m433> I'll be moving my website and in the process I'm re-doing it and aiming to get the whole site XHTML 1.0 STRICT compliant. Does the "brag-tag", i.e. the little gif with the checkmark, go only on the main page or on every page ? -- Walter Dnes Email users are divided into two classes; 1) Those who have effective spam-blocking 2) Those who wish they did -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From marcus.brubaker-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 6 02:16:59 2003 From: marcus.brubaker-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Marcus Brubaker) Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 21:16:59 -0500 Subject: Fedora Linux In-Reply-To: <3FA99DB9.9080700-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <200311041532.28660.fraser@wehave.net> <59878.129.42.208.182.1067992236.squirrel@www.foolswisdom.com> <20031105030114.EEE7444BB@cbbrowne.com> <1068039735.407.2717.camel@localhost> <3FA95A62.60205@sympatico.ca> <20031105152207.6ae44038.joehill@sympatico.ca> <1068078227.20337.26.camel@rincewind.discworld> <3FA99DB9.9080700@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <1068085019.20337.69.camel@rincewind.discworld> On Wed, 2003-11-05 at 20:02, David J Patrick wrote: > Marcus Brubaker wrote: > > >On Wed, 2003-11-05 at 15:22, JoeHill wrote: > > > > > >>On Wed, 05 Nov 2003 15:15:30 -0500 > >>David J Patrick uttered: > >> > >> > >> > >>>A central, intelligent and (ablove all) GUI way to handly the > >>>otherwise arcane system variables. > >>> > >>> > >>Webmin should do tha trick there, mate. You would not believe the many > >>and varied tools available through this wondrous interface. > >> > >>Does Apache, User management, Postfix, sets cron jobs, whatever you > >>want. > >> > >> > > > >As a techie I whole-hearted agree here. Webmin is a beautiful package > >(although I could really wish they had chosen a better front end than > >http) but would fail miserably for what I think David was after. > > > > > Yes and no; I'm going to explore webmin, as it my address my admin needs. > Yet, I doubt that those new(er) to linux (esp. debian) would find it an > appropriate solution. Exactly. It's a great tool if you know what you're doing. It can really save you time looking up syntax every time you need to tweak a config file. > > >Marketing to desktop users means marketing to people who aren't likely > >to want to configure apache, postfix, bind, sendmail or any of the other > >dozens of packages webmin supports. They want things like "what devices > >are connected", "how do i configure my network connection", "where do I > >change the default screensaver", "where can I configure my proxies" and > >other such things. > > > > > > I think a really promising package along these lines is the combination > They're working on that. Ximian GNOME is (was? Novell GNOME?) moving on those lines. I believe GST will be a capplet sometime in the near future. > >of the GNOME Control Center (since around 2.4) and Gnome System Tools. > >In some ways the jury is still very much out with respect to GST. "Just > >working" with each distribution is not an easy task, especially when you > >have the lofty goal of not destroying the config files or running a > >parallel "configuration database" (a la the well intentioned, but > >ill-fated linuxconf). > > > > > I though linuxconf was the bees knees! Where d'it go ? > It died a slow death. I think Redhat held on to it the longest (I think they might have been the ones who sponsored the initial development?). Sadly, it kept a separate config database from the actual config files used by the applications and services it was supposed to configure. So if you originally setup your system with linuxconf, but later tweak a config file by hand you can't go back to linuxconf without killing the tweak. > If linux contunues to standardize, which it must to survive, > I can only imagine that GUI tools could be developed to compliment the > existing morass of > text file based configuration. power users can carry on unhindered, by > GUI and those > with less expertise will have a shot at keeping their boxes working. No > conflict, right ? > in the mean time it's man this and man that with a healthy dose of TLUG > wtf ??? Sadly it's not that simple. Every distribution does configuration files just a bit different. Sometimes it's a different directory, sometimes its completely different formats. Beyond that there is a plethora of different file formats. Talk about reinventing the wheel, every app out there has its own grammar and syntax for their config files, plus these formats routinely change between revisions. Even system level configuration, like network devices, which often use simple bash scripts for config files (in order to set environment vars and whatnot) frequently change which vars mean what between distro versions (minor or major revisions). So imagine this, you need to support ALL of those config file formats. To do this you need to neatly and concisely handle - The syntax and grammar of each, - You need to know what all (or at least most) of the options are beyond just a name (usually), - What each options valid parameters are - How to write each config file And there are others. Add to this things like power users get tweaked when comments get deleted or moved by external programs, so you have to manage to maintain the basic structure of the file while making the above changes. To boot, there are some abilities of certain "config files" (such as sendmail) whose full range of options would be virtually inexpressible in a user-friendly way. Now, if you can do that for EVERY app and service on each distribution then you're set...until someone upgrades or the new flavor-of-the-month application comes up that you need to support and people will get annoyed when odd-ball application foo isn't supported and so forth. >From a requirements perspective, the ideal solution is to create some common configuration subsystem which stores options in a standard text format, allows on the fly modifications and contains all the information mentioned above to allow easy frontend creations (and less duplication of effort). GConf using an XML backend is roughly along these lines, but it's not perfect either, nor does it satisfy all of the above specs. Other projects of interest are freedesktop.org's HAL and Seth Nickell's recently announced SystemServices. Experience tells me that 5 years from none of those will be in use, but I imagine something like them will be. -- Marcus Brubaker -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jason-gaRZxGPHtpBxZtjKW1aY+1aTQe2KTcn/ at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 6 02:31:05 2003 From: jason-gaRZxGPHtpBxZtjKW1aY+1aTQe2KTcn/ at public.gmane.org (Jason Shein) Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 21:31:05 -0500 Subject: Re - My original NEWS post Message-ID: <3FA9B269.3010404@pcsecurityonline.com> I deeply apologise if my posting of news offended some of those who CHOOSE to recieve content from this mailing list. I guess my grasp of the english language ( being my native tounge and all ) is not sufficient to understand the content posted on the tlug website. From http://tlug.linux.ca/subscribe.shtml -snip- "This list is for the discussion of Linux related issues, news, problems, and ideas. This list is not anyone's personal soapbox. It is not for the discussion of political, social, or religious issues, bad jokes, personal rants or similar non Linux related discussion..." -snip 'nuff said. -- " Eventually people tire of repairing broken Windows, And decide to replace them with something stronger" (o_ //\ Linux - The Choice Of A GNU Generation V_/_ Jason Shein Linux Registered User #281100 jason-gaRZxGPHtpBxZtjKW1aY+1aTQe2KTcn/@public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 6 02:45:33 2003 From: cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org (cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org) Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 21:45:33 -0500 Subject: System configuration In-Reply-To: Message from David J Patrick of "Wed, 05 Nov 2003 20:02:49 EST." <3FA99DB9.9080700-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <200311041532.28660.fraser@wehave.net> <59878.129.42.208.182.1067992236.squirrel@www.foolswisdom.com> <20031105030114.EEE7444BB@cbbrowne.com> <1068039735.407.2717.camel@localhost> <3FA95A62.60205@sympatico.ca> <20031105152207.6ae44038.joehill@sympatico.ca> <1068078227.20337.26.camel@rincewind.discworld> <3FA99DB9.9080700@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <20031106024534.C3EC144BB@cbbrowne.com> > I though linuxconf was the bees knees! Where d'it go ? The plans were vastly more ambitious than the outcome, and the project crumbled under the complexity. The complexity of building extension modules was such that only the most devoted of developers were prepared to put the effort into building them. Interest in Linuxconf collapsed shortly thereafter, alongside the failure of similar ambitions in Caldera's COAS system. The tools that are of ongoing relevance are: a) Webmin, which has an easier system for integrating in modules written in Perl, instead of in C++, and b) cfengine, which has no GUI, but which is instead a powerful language for describing your intended system configuration, and "fixes" discrepancies. -- output = ("aa454" "@" "freenet.carleton.ca") http://www.ntlug.org/~cbbrowne/unix.html Rules of the Evil Overlord #159. "If I burst into rebel headquarters and find it deserted except for an odd, blinking device, I will not walk up and investigate; I'll run like hell." -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 6 02:53:28 2003 From: davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (David J Patrick) Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 21:53:28 -0500 Subject: Fedora Linux In-Reply-To: <1068085019.20337.69.camel-eTg7c9BlEq95hrpxxnI5yFifK/mc/01a@public.gmane.org> References: <200311041532.28660.fraser@wehave.net> <59878.129.42.208.182.1067992236.squirrel@www.foolswisdom.com> <20031105030114.EEE7444BB@cbbrowne.com> <1068039735.407.2717.camel@localhost> <3FA95A62.60205@sympatico.ca> <20031105152207.6ae44038.joehill@sympatico.ca> <1068078227.20337.26.camel@rincewind.discworld> <3FA99DB9.9080700@sympatico.ca> <1068085019.20337.69.camel@rincewind.discworld> Message-ID: <3FA9B7A8.7010709@sympatico.ca> >>If linux contunues to standardize, which it must to survive, >>I can only imagine that GUI tools could be developed to compliment the >>existing morass of >>text file based configuration. power users can carry on unhindered, by >>GUI and those >>with less expertise will have a shot at keeping their boxes working. No >>conflict, right ? >>in the mean time it's man this and man that with a healthy dose of TLUG >>wtf ??? >> >> > >Sadly it's not that simple. Every distribution does configuration files >just a bit different. Sometimes it's a different directory, sometimes >its completely different formats. Beyond that there is a plethora of >different file formats. Talk about reinventing the wheel, every app out >there has its own grammar and syntax for their config files, plus these >formats routinely change between revisions. Even system level >configuration, like network devices, which often use simple bash scripts >for config files (in order to set environment vars and whatnot) >frequently change which vars mean what between distro versions (minor or >major revisions). > > What about a debian specific solution? Doesn't "being debian" mean that many elements of the configuration are standardized and, therefore predictable ? Could a Control Centre style app not be modularized and implement only those things that prove consistent ? I may be mildly daft, but I find it hard to believe that the DebianControlCentre is an impossibility. just curious, djp -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 6 02:57:09 2003 From: davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (David J Patrick) Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 21:57:09 -0500 Subject: Re - My original NEWS post In-Reply-To: <3FA9B269.3010404-gaRZxGPHtpBxZtjKW1aY+1aTQe2KTcn/@public.gmane.org> References: <3FA9B269.3010404@pcsecurityonline.com> Message-ID: <3FA9B885.5010609@sympatico.ca> Jason Shein wrote: > I deeply apologise if my posting of news offended some of those who > CHOOSE to recieve content from this mailing list. I guess my grasp of > the english language ( being my native tounge and all ) is not > sufficient to understand the content posted on the tlug website. > > From http://tlug.linux.ca/subscribe.shtml > > -snip- > > "This list is for the discussion of Linux related issues, news, > problems, and ideas. This list is not anyone's personal soapbox. It is > not for the discussion of political, social, or religious issues, bad > jokes, personal rants or similar non Linux related discussion..." > > -snip > > > 'nuff said. > > you are soooo OT .. i'm telling .. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From marcus.brubaker-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 6 03:17:30 2003 From: marcus.brubaker-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Marcus Brubaker) Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 22:17:30 -0500 Subject: Fedora Linux In-Reply-To: <3FA9B7A8.7010709-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <200311041532.28660.fraser@wehave.net> <59878.129.42.208.182.1067992236.squirrel@www.foolswisdom.com> <20031105030114.EEE7444BB@cbbrowne.com> <1068039735.407.2717.camel@localhost> <3FA95A62.60205@sympatico.ca> <20031105152207.6ae44038.joehill@sympatico.ca> <1068078227.20337.26.camel@rincewind.discworld> <3FA99DB9.9080700@sympatico.ca> <1068085019.20337.69.camel@rincewind.discworld> <3FA9B7A8.7010709@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <1068088649.20337.72.camel@rincewind.discworld> On Wed, 2003-11-05 at 21:53, David J Patrick wrote: > >>If linux contunues to standardize, which it must to survive, > >>I can only imagine that GUI tools could be developed to compliment the > >>existing morass of > >>text file based configuration. power users can carry on unhindered, by > >>GUI and those > >>with less expertise will have a shot at keeping their boxes working. No > >>conflict, right ? > >>in the mean time it's man this and man that with a healthy dose of TLUG > >>wtf ??? > >> > >> > > > >Sadly it's not that simple. Every distribution does configuration files > >just a bit different. Sometimes it's a different directory, sometimes > >its completely different formats. Beyond that there is a plethora of > >different file formats. Talk about reinventing the wheel, every app out > >there has its own grammar and syntax for their config files, plus these > >formats routinely change between revisions. Even system level > >configuration, like network devices, which often use simple bash scripts > >for config files (in order to set environment vars and whatnot) > >frequently change which vars mean what between distro versions (minor or > >major revisions). > > > > > What about a debian specific solution? Doesn't "being debian" mean that > many elements of the configuration are standardized and, therefore > predictable ? > Could a Control Centre style app not be modularized and implement only > those things that prove consistent ? I may be mildly daft, but I find it > hard to > believe that the DebianControlCentre is an impossibility. > just curious, Oh, absolutely. And in fact that's the only way things like that get implemented. The issue is that everyone has to do their own because standardization at a lower level is seen as too hard, too much work or who knows. -- Marcus Brubaker -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 6 03:19:58 2003 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 22:19:58 -0500 Subject: System configuration In-Reply-To: <20031106024534.C3EC144BB-xzRQuAxiFLNWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org> References: <200311041532.28660.fraser@wehave.net> <59878.129.42.208.182.1067992236.squirrel@www.foolswisdom.com> <20031105030114.EEE7444BB@cbbrowne.com> <1068039735.407.2717.camel@localhost> <3FA95A62.60205@sympatico.ca> <20031105152207.6ae44038.joehill@sympatico.ca> <1068078227.20337.26.camel@rincewind.discworld> <3FA99DB9.9080700@sympatico.ca> <20031106024534.C3EC144BB@cbbrowne.com> Message-ID: <20031106031958.GA281@node1.opengeometry.net> On Wed, Nov 05, 2003 at 09:45:33PM -0500, cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org wrote: > > I though linuxconf was the bees knees! Where d'it go ? > > The plans were vastly more ambitious than the outcome, and the project > crumbled under the complexity. > > The complexity of building extension modules was such that only the most > devoted of developers were prepared to put the effort into building > them. > > Interest in Linuxconf collapsed shortly thereafter, alongside the > failure of similar ambitions in Caldera's COAS system. > > The tools that are of ongoing relevance are: > > a) Webmin, which has an easier system for integrating in modules > written in Perl, instead of in C++, and I could write Linuxconf in shell (and its friends), if they paid me. > > b) cfengine, which has no GUI, but which is instead a powerful language > for describing your intended system configuration, and "fixes" > discrepancies. -- William Park, Open Geometry Consulting, Linux solution for data management and processing. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From marcus.brubaker-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 6 05:02:02 2003 From: marcus.brubaker-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Marcus Brubaker) Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2003 00:02:02 -0500 Subject: System configuration In-Reply-To: <20031106031958.GA281-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <200311041532.28660.fraser@wehave.net> <59878.129.42.208.182.1067992236.squirrel@www.foolswisdom.com> <20031105030114.EEE7444BB@cbbrowne.com> <1068039735.407.2717.camel@localhost> <3FA95A62.60205@sympatico.ca> <20031105152207.6ae44038.joehill@sympatico.ca> <1068078227.20337.26.camel@rincewind.discworld> <3FA99DB9.9080700@sympatico.ca> <20031106024534.C3EC144BB@cbbrowne.com> <20031106031958.GA281@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <1068094922.20337.76.camel@rincewind.discworld> On Wed, 2003-11-05 at 22:19, William Park wrote: > On Wed, Nov 05, 2003 at 09:45:33PM -0500, cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org wrote: > > > I though linuxconf was the bees knees! Where d'it go ? > > > > The plans were vastly more ambitious than the outcome, and the project > > crumbled under the complexity. > > > > The complexity of building extension modules was such that only the most > > devoted of developers were prepared to put the effort into building > > them. > > > > Interest in Linuxconf collapsed shortly thereafter, alongside the > > failure of similar ambitions in Caldera's COAS system. > > > > The tools that are of ongoing relevance are: > > > > a) Webmin, which has an easier system for integrating in modules > > written in Perl, instead of in C++, and > > I could write Linuxconf in shell (and its friends), if they paid me. > The sheer amount of arbitrary text processing required makes perl an easier choice for those kinds of modules, hence the success of Webmin and, relative, failure of Linuxconf. Of course, by an informal extension to the Church-Turing Thesis we can claim that all languages are equally powerful, so yeah, you could do it shell. But I don't know if there's enough money out there to make it worth my while to write something like that in shell. Ick.... -- Marcus Brubaker -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 6 05:35:37 2003 From: hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org (Howard Gibson) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2003 00:35:37 -0500 Subject: [OT] HTML "brag-tag" question In-Reply-To: <20031106012500.GA27953-DPTsmTRGv3o@public.gmane.org> References: <20031106012500.GA27953@m433> Message-ID: <20031106003537.1fc5701a.hgibson@eol.ca> On Wed, 5 Nov 2003 20:25:00 -0500 Walter Dnes wrote: > I'll be moving my website and in the process I'm re-doing it and > aiming to get the whole site XHTML 1.0 STRICT compliant. Does the > "brag-tag", i.e. the little gif with the checkmark, go only on the main > page or on every page ? Walter, I run a website for a hiking club, http://home.eol.ca/~hgibson/hphc/, and I put the tag on every page that conforms to the strict XHTML DTD. This matters (to me anyway) because one page is the output from a Microsoft Excel spreadsheet, and it does not conform. I would interpret a tag on the main page as indicating that the entire site conforms. If you attach the tag as recommended by W3C, clicking on it causes your site to be validated. This saves a lot of work. -- Howard Gibson hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org howard-42qnO8ePF9cV+D8aMU/kSg at public.gmane.org http://home.eol.ca/~hgibson -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From teddymills-VFlxZYho3OA at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 6 05:46:08 2003 From: teddymills-VFlxZYho3OA at public.gmane.org (Teddy Mills) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2003 00:46:08 -0500 Subject: Time for a new Linux Message-ID: <001701c3a429$47723fb0$0301a8c0@amazon> So if RH is exiting, and Fedora is too new, what Linux should I look for, that is... similar to RH keeps a good balance. (that is, not too behind the times or ahead of the times) keeps current I dont know the BSDs, now would be a good time to correct this. The Linux and BSDs that I am leaning towards are Mandrake, FreeBSD, Slackware -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 6 05:51:38 2003 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2003 00:51:38 -0500 Subject: IT Job creations... IT job losses? In-Reply-To: <55675.216.138.194.32.1067900320.squirrel-16UnNR4aCrhlws70yGkXPA@public.gmane.org> References: <20031031065348.4d3e2503.joehill@sympatico.ca> <46237.216.138.194.32.1067624431.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> <20031102214812.GB6244@m433> <55675.216.138.194.32.1067900320.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> Message-ID: <20031106055138.GB28528@m433> On Mon, Nov 03, 2003 at 05:58:40PM -0500, Keith Mastin wrote > > > Upgrades can be put off, unless you want to run an app the *DEMANDS* > > Not if you're running servers for commercial clients, you can't. As soon > as CERT issues the alarm, it's time to move, becaue there are a lot of > pretty knowledgeable script kiddies out there exploring *nix. Every > exploited linux system I've seen was lacking that one critical upgrade > that the sysadmin should have paid more attnetion to. Question... how many Apache security fixes have there been in the last 3 years versus IIS ? Postfix, Exim, and Sendmail combined versus MS Exchange ? Pine/Elm/Mutt etc., etc., versus Outhouse Excuse ? Mozilla (and derivatives thereof) versus Internet Explorer ? -- Walter Dnes Email users are divided into two classes; 1) Those who have effective spam-blocking 2) Those who wish they did -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From marcus.brubaker-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 6 06:20:39 2003 From: marcus.brubaker-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Marcus Brubaker) Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2003 01:20:39 -0500 Subject: Re - My original NEWS post In-Reply-To: <3FA9B885.5010609-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FA9B269.3010404@pcsecurityonline.com> <3FA9B885.5010609@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <1068099639.20337.85.camel@rincewind.discworld> On Wed, 2003-11-05 at 21:57, David J Patrick wrote: > Jason Shein wrote: > > > I deeply apologise if my posting of news offended some of those who > > CHOOSE to recieve content from this mailing list. I guess my grasp of > > the english language ( being my native tounge and all ) is not > > sufficient to understand the content posted on the tlug website. > > > > From http://tlug.linux.ca/subscribe.shtml > > > > -snip- > > > > "This list is for the discussion of Linux related issues, news, > > problems, and ideas. This list is not anyone's personal soapbox. It is > > not for the discussion of political, social, or religious issues, bad > > jokes, personal rants or similar non Linux related discussion..." > > > > -snip > > > > > > 'nuff said. > > > > > you are soooo OT .. i'm telling .. > Heheh, he's gonna be in *so* much trouble. Jason, I hope Emir and others comments don't put you off from posting other interesting news articles. Honestly, I don't get to read slashdot *everyday* anymore, nor am I able to keep up on other news sources. (I just don't have the time. Large course load + research + grad school apps = very little free time.) So I for one appreciate when people post articles that they found particularly interesting. Should we post everything that pops up? No, of course not, but if something especially strikes your fancy, by all means, post. Thanks for the post. Regards, -- Marcus Brubaker -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From blsonne-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 6 07:36:38 2003 From: blsonne-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Byron Sonne) Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2003 02:36:38 -0500 Subject: Time for a new Linux In-Reply-To: <001701c3a429$47723fb0$0301a8c0-vAnPq90cUBg@public.gmane.org> References: <001701c3a429$47723fb0$0301a8c0@amazon> Message-ID: <3FA9FA06.30702@rogers.com> > So if RH is exiting, and Fedora is too new, what Linux should I look for, > that is... similar to RH keeps a good balance. (that is, not too behind > the times or ahead of the times) keeps current I have been a very satisfied SuSE user for a few years now... nicely put together distro, your choice of desktops although I must say KDE integrates particularly well. Uses rpms, if you care about that, good layout, online updates, *excellent* hardware detection and configuration. Comes on DVD too... and if you're wondering why it is so fat in terms of CD/DVD contents, that's cos it comes from Germany where telco and connectivity fees are rather painful and you don't want to spend an assload of time downloading or updating over the net. But enough of my blah blah blah... check it out. Dumped redhat in a second after working on a SuSE box and never looked back. Well, 'cept for some wireless stuff that had redhat specific rpms and configs. I'm not a debhead but I still do plenty (90% of typical admin stuff) through the command line, build most things from source and often tweak things without using the built in tools, and it hasn't barfed or bitched at me yet. Or maybe I've learned to be careful, who knows ;) 'Sides, it ain't made by some sloppy american company and I like that. The manuals are pretty good too if that strikes your fancy. > I dont know the BSDs, now would be a good time to correct this. Absolutely! FreeBSD, to generalize and in my personal experience, is the best performing and tightest of all the free unices or unix clones (linux). But OpenBSD is my favourite (despite no SMP support) and has the coolest firewalling/packet mangling stuff out there; pf is a masterpiece. Don't let Theo put you off ;) -- For good, return good. For evil, return justice. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 6 07:37:27 2003 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2003 02:37:27 -0500 Subject: Time for a new Linux In-Reply-To: <001701c3a429$47723fb0$0301a8c0-vAnPq90cUBg@public.gmane.org> References: <001701c3a429$47723fb0$0301a8c0@amazon> Message-ID: <20031106073727.GA312@node1.opengeometry.net> On Thu, Nov 06, 2003 at 12:46:08AM -0500, Teddy Mills wrote: > So if RH is exiting, and Fedora is too new, what Linux should I look for, > that is... > > similar to RH > keeps a good balance. (that is, not too behind the times or ahead of the > times) > keeps current > > I dont know the BSDs, now would be a good time to correct this. > > > The Linux and BSDs that I am leaning towards are > > Mandrake, FreeBSD, Slackware Try Slackware. You'd be surprised. It's bootup is more BSD than SysV. -- William Park, Open Geometry Consulting, Linux solution for data management and processing. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From blsonne-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 6 07:42:13 2003 From: blsonne-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Byron Sonne) Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2003 02:42:13 -0500 Subject: Time for a new Linux In-Reply-To: <3FA9FA06.30702-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <001701c3a429$47723fb0$0301a8c0@amazon> <3FA9FA06.30702@rogers.com> Message-ID: <3FA9FB55.2030608@rogers.com> Forgot to mention that SuSE is very SysV. Never really felt the love for run levels ever again after working with BSD boxes though... -- For good, return good. For evil, return justice. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 6 07:43:01 2003 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2003 02:43:01 -0500 Subject: System configuration In-Reply-To: <1068094922.20337.76.camel-eTg7c9BlEq95hrpxxnI5yFifK/mc/01a@public.gmane.org> References: <59878.129.42.208.182.1067992236.squirrel@www.foolswisdom.com> <20031105030114.EEE7444BB@cbbrowne.com> <1068039735.407.2717.camel@localhost> <3FA95A62.60205@sympatico.ca> <20031105152207.6ae44038.joehill@sympatico.ca> <1068078227.20337.26.camel@rincewind.discworld> <3FA99DB9.9080700@sympatico.ca> <20031106024534.C3EC144BB@cbbrowne.com> <20031106031958.GA281@node1.opengeometry.net> <1068094922.20337.76.camel@rincewind.discworld> Message-ID: <20031106074301.GB312@node1.opengeometry.net> On Thu, Nov 06, 2003 at 12:02:02AM -0500, Marcus Brubaker wrote: > On Wed, 2003-11-05 at 22:19, William Park wrote: > > > Interest in Linuxconf collapsed shortly thereafter, alongside the > > > failure of similar ambitions in Caldera's COAS system. ... > > I could write Linuxconf in shell (and its friends), if they paid me. > > The sheer amount of arbitrary text processing required makes perl an > easier choice for those kinds of modules, hence the success of Webmin > and, relative, failure of Linuxconf. Of course, by an informal > extension to the Church-Turing Thesis we can claim that all languages > are equally powerful, so yeah, you could do it shell. But I don't > know if there's enough money out there to make it worth my while to > write something like that in shell. Ick.... Nonsense. How does $100,000 (for something that will take one month) sound to you? -- William Park, Open Geometry Consulting, Linux solution for data management and processing. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 6 07:52:56 2003 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2003 02:52:56 -0500 Subject: Time for a new Linux In-Reply-To: <3FA9FB55.2030608-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <001701c3a429$47723fb0$0301a8c0@amazon> <3FA9FA06.30702@rogers.com> <3FA9FB55.2030608@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20031106075256.GA351@node1.opengeometry.net> On Thu, Nov 06, 2003 at 02:42:13AM -0500, Byron Sonne wrote: > Forgot to mention that SuSE is very SysV. Never really felt the love for > run levels ever again after working with BSD boxes though... Where did you get your FreeBSD CD? I can't find it in any local bookstores. Do they have anything similar to Linux's HOWTO files? -- William Park, Open Geometry Consulting, Linux solution for data management and processing. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 6 11:40:07 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2003 06:40:07 -0500 Subject: Time for a new Linux In-Reply-To: <001701c3a429$47723fb0$0301a8c0-vAnPq90cUBg@public.gmane.org> References: <001701c3a429$47723fb0$0301a8c0@amazon> Message-ID: <20031106064007.7aadc6b2.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Thu, 6 Nov 2003 00:46:08 -0500 "Teddy Mills" uttered: > So if RH is exiting, and Fedora is too new, what Linux should I look > for, that is... > > similar to RH > keeps a good balance. (that is, not too behind the times or ahead of > the times) > keeps current > > I dont know the BSDs, now would be a good time to correct this. > > > The Linux and BSDs that I am leaning towards are > > Mandrake, FreeBSD, Slackware Well, YMMV, but I have been using Mandrake since about 8.0 and I am *very* satisfied. Very easy to install and configure, supports a lot of newer hardware, excellent package management (not perfect...just excellent, so all you Debian folks can relax). Tons of software contributed by a huge community of package maintainers (eh Austin?). Best of all, for me at least, is the community support. I am on both the Mandrake Expert and Mandrake Newbie mailing lists, and there is always friendly and knowledgeable and patient support to be had, as well as the occasional (ya right) offtopic but funny and/or informative and/or argumentative threads. Personally, I would put Debian as my second choice, the install is not quite as easy but it's not difficult if you have even the slightest knowledge of partitioning and such, plus the package management is second to none. Configuration tools are not as slick as Mandrake, but as I posted earlier, Webmin can make configuring almost any Linux system a snap. -- JoeHill Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Do what you can to prolong your life, in the hope that someday you'll learn what it's for. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 6 11:45:59 2003 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2003 06:45:59 -0500 Subject: System configuration In-Reply-To: <1068094922.20337.76.camel-eTg7c9BlEq95hrpxxnI5yFifK/mc/01a@public.gmane.org> References: <200311041532.28660.fraser@wehave.net> <59878.129.42.208.182.1067992236.squirrel@www.foolswisdom.com> <20031105030114.EEE7444BB@cbbrowne.com> <1068039735.407.2717.camel@localhost> <3FA95A62.60205@sympatico.ca> <20031105152207.6ae44038.joehill@sympatico.ca> <1068078227.20337.26.camel@rincewind.discworld> <3FA99DB9.9080700@sympatico.ca> <20031106024534.C3EC144BB@cbbrowne.com> <20031106031958.GA281@node1.opengeometry.net> <1068094922.20337.76.camel@rincewind.discworld> Message-ID: <3FAA3477.1030302@rogers.com> Marcus Brubaker wrote: > On Wed, 2003-11-05 at 22:19, William Park wrote: > >>On Wed, Nov 05, 2003 at 09:45:33PM -0500, cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org wrote: >> >>>>I though linuxconf was the bees knees! Where d'it go ? >>> >>>The plans were vastly more ambitious than the outcome, and the project >>>crumbled under the complexity. >>> >>>The complexity of building extension modules was such that only the most >>>devoted of developers were prepared to put the effort into building >>>them. >>> >>>Interest in Linuxconf collapsed shortly thereafter, alongside the >>>failure of similar ambitions in Caldera's COAS system. >>> >>>The tools that are of ongoing relevance are: >>> >>> a) Webmin, which has an easier system for integrating in modules >>> written in Perl, instead of in C++, and >> >>I could write Linuxconf in shell (and its friends), if they paid me. >> > > > The sheer amount of arbitrary text processing required makes perl an > easier choice for those kinds of modules, hence the success of Webmin > and, relative, failure of Linuxconf. Of course, by an informal > extension to the Church-Turing Thesis we can claim that all languages > are equally powerful, so yeah, you could do it shell. But I don't know > if there's enough money out there to make it worth my while to write > something like that in shell. Ick.... > Well, there's always Visual Basic. ;-) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 6 12:43:58 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2003 07:43:58 -0500 Subject: Fedora Linux In-Reply-To: <3FA99DB9.9080700-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <200311041532.28660.fraser@wehave.net> <59878.129.42.208.182.1067992236.squirrel@www.foolswisdom.com> <20031105030114.EEE7444BB@cbbrowne.com> <1068039735.407.2717.camel@localhost> <3FA95A62.60205@sympatico.ca> <20031105152207.6ae44038.joehill@sympatico.ca> <1068078227.20337.26.camel@rincewind.discworld> <3FA99DB9.9080700@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <20031106074358.383fc5ae.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Wed, 05 Nov 2003 20:02:49 -0500 David J Patrick uttered: > I though linuxconf was the bees knees! Where d'it go ? It's still around, I believe. It's installed on my system, though why Mandrake would choose to include it, I have no freaking idea, because if you mess up, you can *really* hose your system. It lets you do a lot of things easily, but it explains *nothing*, so there's no warning, no mercy... -- JoeHill Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ A lot of people I know believe in positive thinking, and so do I. I believe everything positively stinks. -- Lew Col -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 6 12:55:52 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2003 07:55:52 -0500 Subject: Fedora Linux In-Reply-To: <1068078227.20337.26.camel-eTg7c9BlEq95hrpxxnI5yFifK/mc/01a@public.gmane.org> References: <200311041532.28660.fraser@wehave.net> <59878.129.42.208.182.1067992236.squirrel@www.foolswisdom.com> <20031105030114.EEE7444BB@cbbrowne.com> <1068039735.407.2717.camel@localhost> <3FA95A62.60205@sympatico.ca> <20031105152207.6ae44038.joehill@sympatico.ca> <1068078227.20337.26.camel@rincewind.discworld> Message-ID: <20031106075552.34b9213c.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Wed, 05 Nov 2003 19:23:48 -0500 Marcus Brubaker uttered: > > As a techie I whole-hearted agree here. Webmin is a beautiful package > (although I could really wish they had chosen a better front end than > http) but would fail miserably for what I think David was after. > Marketing to desktop users means marketing to people who aren't likely > to want to configure apache, postfix, bind, sendmail or any of the > other dozens of packages webmin supports. They want things like "what > devices are connected", "how do i configure my network connection", > "where do I change the default screensaver", "where can I configure my > proxies" and other such things. Isn't that in there? I'm looking at my Webmin interface for my server here and it's even got an entry for software installation/removal, System Time, printer administration, hardware config for CD Burner, Network config (including interfaces and routing), VPN, etc. etc. Ok, the screensaver ain't there... ;-) > I think a really promising package along these lines is the > combination of the GNOME Control Center (since around 2.4) and Gnome > System Tools. In some ways the jury is still very much out with > respect to GST. "Just working" with each distribution is not an easy > task, especially when you have the lofty goal of not destroying the > config files or running a parallel "configuration database" (a la the > well intentioned, but ill-fated linuxconf). There I'm with ya. I don't think Webmin, at least as it stands, is enough for the total newb. I really hope that Gnome can take the lead on this one and provide a much-needed standardized interface. I don't see why the purists would rant too much, you can still edit the config files by hand if you want, but the "wizard" is there if you want it. BTW, on the funny side of things, Verisign sold the domain name "localhost.com", so a lot of people trying to use Webmin are getting some commercial site now! Good ol' Verisign...is there *anything* they can't do wrong? -- JoeHill Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ The truth is what is; what should be is a dirty lie. -- Lenny Bruce -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lloyd-fEEwcc3XMu8jODpR/OX0VQ at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 6 13:04:22 2003 From: lloyd-fEEwcc3XMu8jODpR/OX0VQ at public.gmane.org (Lloyd D Budd) Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2003 08:04:22 -0500 Subject: Time for a new Linux In-Reply-To: <3FA9FA06.30702-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <001701c3a429$47723fb0$0301a8c0@amazon> <3FA9FA06.30702@rogers.com> Message-ID: <1068123861.405.2877.camel@localhost> On Thu, 2003-11-06 at 02:36, Byron Sonne wrote: > > So if RH is exiting, and Fedora is too new, what Linux should I look for, > > that is... similar to RH keeps a good balance. (that is, not too behind > > the times or ahead of the times) keeps current > > I have been a very satisfied SuSE user for a few years now... I also know many, many very satisfied SuSE users. Though didn't they 'dump' the consumer (desktop) market some time ago? My reason for only dealing with it when I have to, which is actually quite a bit, is its closed source pkg management system. For me to choose a closed source solution, I have to find a very good reason. > 'Sides, it ain't made by some sloppy american company and I like that. Do you mean to say that it is not made by some sloppy German company? Or what are you trying to say here? -- is it worth saying? Cheers, Lloyd -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 6 13:08:48 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2003 08:08:48 -0500 Subject: IT Job creations... IT job losses? In-Reply-To: <20031106055138.GB28528-DPTsmTRGv3o@public.gmane.org> References: <20031031065348.4d3e2503.joehill@sympatico.ca> <46237.216.138.194.32.1067624431.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> <20031102214812.GB6244@m433> <55675.216.138.194.32.1067900320.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> <20031106055138.GB28528@m433> Message-ID: <20031106080848.458c8469.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Thu, 6 Nov 2003 00:51:38 -0500 Walter Dnes uttered: > > Question... how many Apache security fixes have there been in the > last 3 years versus IIS ? Postfix, Exim, and Sendmail combined > versus MS > Exchange ? Pine/Elm/Mutt etc., etc., versus Outhouse Excuse ? > Mozilla(and derivatives thereof) versus Internet Explorer ? I realize yours is a rhetorical question (well done, BTW), but *exactement!* I update my server religiously, though why someone would want to hack my pitiful site I have no idea, and I've had to update/patch Apache only 3 times in the last several months. Keeping in mind that these were for *non* trivial exploits, as opposed to the *unbelievably* trivial exploits for IIS, patches for IIS that cover multiple and egregious (one of my fav words, you may have noticed) vulnerabilities come out *almost daily*. I really pity any admin trying to keep up with the barrage of patches that must be applied to MS systems just to stay one step *behind* the hackers, never mind actually getting ahead of them, since MS doesn't usually even acknowledge a vulnerability exists until it's far too late. BTW, I realize this qualifies as an "I agree" post, but I just couldn't hold back! LOL! -- JoeHill Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Do what you can to prolong your life, in the hope that someday you'll learn what it's for. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lloyd-fEEwcc3XMu8jODpR/OX0VQ at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 6 13:13:36 2003 From: lloyd-fEEwcc3XMu8jODpR/OX0VQ at public.gmane.org (Lloyd D Budd) Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2003 08:13:36 -0500 Subject: Time for a new Linux In-Reply-To: <001701c3a429$47723fb0$0301a8c0-vAnPq90cUBg@public.gmane.org> References: <001701c3a429$47723fb0$0301a8c0@amazon> Message-ID: <1068124416.405.2888.camel@localhost> On Thu, 2003-11-06 at 00:46, Teddy Mills wrote: > So if RH is exiting, and Fedora is too new, what Linux should I look for, > that is... If your motivation is RH is existing and Fedora is too new, I think you are buying into FUD too much. For me Debian or Gentoo is an easy decision for my personal use, but I am not you ;-) Fedora is not actually that new, and "they" seem to be doing a great job of rolling out test releases (of the new integration) on schedule. If you have the bandwidth, Fedora should be better with net-based "distribution upgrades" than previous-RHs. There is some uncertainty with the backing of some of the other chooses: SuSE: likely being bought by Novell; SuSE took less interest in consumer market a long time ago Mandrake: still concerns about them balancing the books -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lloyd-fEEwcc3XMu8jODpR/OX0VQ at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 6 13:18:48 2003 From: lloyd-fEEwcc3XMu8jODpR/OX0VQ at public.gmane.org (Lloyd D Budd) Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2003 08:18:48 -0500 Subject: [OT] HTML "brag-tag" question In-Reply-To: <20031106012500.GA27953-DPTsmTRGv3o@public.gmane.org> References: <20031106012500.GA27953@m433> Message-ID: <1068124727.409.2893.camel@localhost> On Wed, 2003-11-05 at 20:25, Walter Dnes wrote: > I'll be moving my website and in the process I'm re-doing it and > aiming to get the whole site XHTML 1.0 STRICT compliant. Does the > "brag-tag", i.e. the little gif with the checkmark, go only on the main > page or on every page ? I would only put it on the main page if anywhere. I find the tag obnoxious in most cases -- there are some target audiences that it is appropriate for. It is far more important to identify the DTD in the HTML code. Cheers, Lloyd -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jason-gaRZxGPHtpBxZtjKW1aY+1aTQe2KTcn/ at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 6 13:45:10 2003 From: jason-gaRZxGPHtpBxZtjKW1aY+1aTQe2KTcn/ at public.gmane.org (Jason Shein) Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2003 08:45:10 -0500 Subject: Re - My original NEWS post In-Reply-To: <1068099639.20337.85.camel-eTg7c9BlEq95hrpxxnI5yFifK/mc/01a@public.gmane.org> References: <3FA9B269.3010404@pcsecurityonline.com> <3FA9B885.5010609@sympatico.ca> <1068099639.20337.85.camel@rincewind.discworld> Message-ID: <3FAA5066.6030400@pcsecurityonline.com> Marcus Brubaker wrote: > On Wed, 2003-11-05 at 21:57, David J Patrick wrote: > >>Jason Shein wrote: >> >> >>>I deeply apologise if my posting of news offended some of those who >>>CHOOSE to recieve content from this mailing list. I guess my grasp of >>>the english language ( being my native tounge and all ) is not >>>sufficient to understand the content posted on the tlug website. >>> >>>From http://tlug.linux.ca/subscribe.shtml >>> >>>-snip- >>> >>>"This list is for the discussion of Linux related issues, news, >>>problems, and ideas. This list is not anyone's personal soapbox. It is >>>not for the discussion of political, social, or religious issues, bad >>>jokes, personal rants or similar non Linux related discussion..." >>> >>>-snip >>> >>> >>>'nuff said. >>> >>> >> >>you are soooo OT .. i'm telling .. >> > > > Heheh, he's gonna be in *so* much trouble. > > Jason, > > I hope Emir and others comments don't put you off from posting other > interesting news articles. Honestly, I don't get to read slashdot > *everyday* anymore, nor am I able to keep up on other news sources. (I > just don't have the time. Large course load + research + grad school > apps = very little free time.) So I for one appreciate when people post > articles that they found particularly interesting. Should we post > everything that pops up? No, of course not, but if something especially > strikes your fancy, by all means, post. > > Thanks for the post. > > Regards, No problem. I just found a stick to prod with ;) and thought it might wake someone up. -- " Eventually people tire of repairing broken Windows, And decide to replace them with something stronger" (o_ //\ Linux - The Choice Of A GNU Generation V_/_ Jason Shein Linux Registered User #281100 jason-gaRZxGPHtpBxZtjKW1aY+1aTQe2KTcn/@public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From ralph-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 6 13:45:06 2003 From: ralph-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ralph Doncaster) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2003 08:45:06 -0500 (EST) Subject: IT Job creations... IT job losses? In-Reply-To: <20031106055138.GB28528-DPTsmTRGv3o@public.gmane.org> References: <20031031065348.4d3e2503.joehill@sympatico.ca> <46237.216.138.194.32.1067624431.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> <20031102214812.GB6244@m433> <55675.216.138.194.32.1067900320.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> <20031106055138.GB28528@m433> Message-ID: On Thu, 6 Nov 2003, Walter Dnes wrote: > On Mon, Nov 03, 2003 at 05:58:40PM -0500, Keith Mastin wrote > Question... how many Apache security fixes have there been in the last > 3 years versus IIS ? Postfix, Exim, and Sendmail combined versus MS > Exchange ? Pine/Elm/Mutt etc., etc., versus Outhouse Excuse ? Mozilla > (and derivatives thereof) versus Internet Explorer ? With the right setup, a lot the patches don't even matter. The right setup being proper shell security and secure kernel patches (i.e. the openwall or pax patches). -Ralph -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 6 14:56:49 2003 From: davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (David J Patrick) Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2003 09:56:49 -0500 Subject: Time for a new Linux In-Reply-To: <001701c3a429$47723fb0$0301a8c0-vAnPq90cUBg@public.gmane.org> References: <001701c3a429$47723fb0$0301a8c0@amazon> Message-ID: <3FAA6131.8010300@sympatico.ca> Teddy Mills wrote: >So if RH is exiting, and Fedora is too new, what Linux should I look for, >that is... > >similar to RH >keeps a good balance. (that is, not too behind the times or ahead of the >times) >keeps current > >I dont know the BSDs, now would be a good time to correct this. > > >The Linux and BSDs that I am leaning towards are > >Mandrake, FreeBSD, Slackware > > > > Fedora should continue the RH tradition, but with sane, community-driven improvements; perhaps allowing access to debians vast apt-get resources. Give it a chance or try Mandrake 9.2; I hear it's very good! or install a pure debian system (starting with bonzai2.1) djp -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 6 15:15:10 2003 From: davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (David J Patrick) Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2003 10:15:10 -0500 Subject: what the fsck ? In-Reply-To: <3FA99F8D.1090504-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FA99F8D.1090504@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <3FAA657E.4080304@sympatico.ca> (replying to himself) Does fsck check for hardware problems at all ? If not, what does ? djp -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From tchitow-PkbjNfxxIARBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 6 15:21:02 2003 From: tchitow-PkbjNfxxIARBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Martin Duclos) Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2003 10:21:02 -0500 Subject: what the fsck ? Message-ID: What brand of hd is it? If it's fujitsu, back it up and throw it out. (replying to himself) Does fsck check for hardware problems at all ? If not, what does ? djp -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml _________________________________________________________________ Concerned that messages may bounce because your Hotmail account is over limit? Get Hotmail Extra Storage! http://join.msn.com/?PAGE=features/es -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From IlyaPalagin-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 6 10:27:44 2003 From: IlyaPalagin-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Ilya Palagin) Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2003 10:27:44 +0000 Subject: Time for a new Linux In-Reply-To: <001701c3a429$47723fb0$0301a8c0-vAnPq90cUBg@public.gmane.org> References: <001701c3a429$47723fb0$0301a8c0@amazon> Message-ID: <3FAA2220.8030707@rogers.com> Teddy Mills wrote: > So if RH is exiting, and Fedora is too new, what Linux should I look for, > that is... > > similar to RH > keeps a good balance. (that is, not too behind the times or ahead of the > times) > keeps current The problem is that there is no distribution like this :-( Debian is too behind the times SuSE will become Novell's own soon, and who knows what will happen to it Mandrake is too ahead of the times The only solution is LFS! > > I dont know the BSDs, now would be a good time to correct this. > > > The Linux and BSDs that I am leaning towards are > > Mandrake, FreeBSD, Slackware > > > > > > > > > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 6 15:40:22 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2003 10:40:22 -0500 Subject: OpenOffice.org Performance In-Reply-To: <3FA514BB.4020306-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <20031101224843.789094092@cbbrowne.com> <200311012209.30879.marc@lijour.net> <3FA514BB.4020306@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20031106104022.795fff38.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Sun, 02 Nov 2003 09:29:15 -0500 James Knott uttered: > I recently installed OO0-1.1, and it's still slow loading. Just now I clicked on my resume.doc (not a large file, LOL!), and OO 1.1 had it open on my screen in under 5 seconds, and that is a *very* conservative estimate, it was probably faster. -- JoeHill Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ There's only one everything. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lloyd-fEEwcc3XMu8jODpR/OX0VQ at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 6 15:43:42 2003 From: lloyd-fEEwcc3XMu8jODpR/OX0VQ at public.gmane.org (Lloyd D Budd) Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2003 10:43:42 -0500 Subject: Time for a new Linux In-Reply-To: <3FAA2220.8030707-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <001701c3a429$47723fb0$0301a8c0@amazon> <3FAA2220.8030707@rogers.com> Message-ID: <1068133422.405.2905.camel@localhost> On Thu, 2003-11-06 at 05:27, Ilya Palagin wrote: > Teddy Mills wrote: > > similar to RH > > keeps a good balance. (that is, not too behind the times or ahead of the > > times) > > keeps current > > The problem is that there is no distribution like this :-( > > Debian is too behind the times Debian is not behind the times. > SuSE will become Novell's own soon, and who knows what will happen to it > Mandrake is too ahead of the times Mandrake is not ahead of the times. > The only solution is LFS! I do not see a smiley face, even given your flawed logic, I am shocked at your conclusion ;-) Possibly you would elaborate on how Linux From Scratch is the only solution? Cheers. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 6 15:52:27 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2003 10:52:27 -0500 Subject: Time for a new Linux In-Reply-To: <3FAA2220.8030707-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <001701c3a429$47723fb0$0301a8c0@amazon> <3FAA2220.8030707@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20031106105227.490c272e.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Thu, 06 Nov 2003 10:27:44 +0000 Ilya Palagin uttered: > The problem is that there is no distribution like this :-( > > Debian is too behind the times If you install Debian Stable, yes. If you install Debian Testing, it is/can be just as up-to-date as Mandrake. here is a list of packages avail in testing: http://ftp-master.debian.org/testing/update_excuses.html Note the appearance of things like Gnome 2.4, OO 1.1, Mozilla 1.4, etc. > Mandrake is too ahead of the times Examples? -- JoeHill Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Just remember, wherever you go, there you are. -- Buckaroo Bonzai -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 6 15:54:39 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2003 10:54:39 -0500 Subject: Time for a new Linux In-Reply-To: <3FAA2220.8030707-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <001701c3a429$47723fb0$0301a8c0@amazon> <3FAA2220.8030707@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20031106105439.73342f4d.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Thu, 06 Nov 2003 10:27:44 +0000 Ilya Palagin uttered: > The only solution is LFS! For whom? LFS makes a Gentoo install look simple, and that's no mean feat. -- JoeHill Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Perhaps the biggest disappointments were the ones you expected anyway. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 6 16:16:09 2003 From: henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org (Henry Spencer) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2003 11:16:09 -0500 (EST) Subject: Time for a new Linux In-Reply-To: <1068123861.405.2877.camel-bi+AKbBUZKZeoWH0uzbU5w@public.gmane.org> References: <1068123861.405.2877.camel@localhost> Message-ID: On Thu, 6 Nov 2003, Lloyd D Budd wrote: > I also know many, many very satisfied SuSE users. Though didn't they > 'dump' the consumer (desktop) market some time ago? No. De-emphasized it a bit, maybe. It's hard to tell for sure even about that, from here, since they've never had terribly strong North American distribution. (The U of T computer store carries SuSE, though.) Henry Spencer henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lloyd-fEEwcc3XMu8jODpR/OX0VQ at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 6 16:29:12 2003 From: lloyd-fEEwcc3XMu8jODpR/OX0VQ at public.gmane.org (Lloyd D Budd) Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2003 11:29:12 -0500 Subject: news URLs In-Reply-To: <3FA84CF7.7020807-FFYn/CNdgSA@public.gmane.org> References: <3FA7F429.30308@codemonkeys.org> <3FA7F787.2060401@yahoo.ca> <3FA7FB86.9030105@codemonkeys.org> <3FA7FE2B.1010001@yahoo.ca> <63293.129.42.208.182.1067978545.squirrel@www.foolswisdom.com> <3FA82018.6060308@yahoo.ca> <49567.129.42.208.182.1067988029.squirrel@www.foolswisdom.com> <3FA8419B.2070600@yahoo.ca> <63015.129.42.208.182.1067996164.squirrel@www.foolswisdom.com> <3FA84CF7.7020807@yahoo.ca> Message-ID: <1068136151.409.2971.camel@localhost> On Tue, 2003-11-04 at 20:05, Stephen Allen wrote: > lloyd-fEEwcc3XMu8jODpR/OX0VQ at public.gmane.org wrote: > > >>BTW, I don't think you mentioned if you mind news url's posted here or > >>not...? > > > > http://article.gmane.org/gmane.org.user-groups.linux.tolug/2888 > > Thanks, my 'find' on my local spool, works fine to. :) > > You didn't mention, urls of news items, I had checked before I asked... > you didn't exclude, it though. No matter, it not a big issue, it appears most > don't seem to mind news urls being posted. :)) I tried to mention it, but obviously I chose the wrong key words ;-) In my post that I reference above, I list MLP as a small 'annoyance'. The term originates from kuro5hin: MLP - this section is called "Mindless Link Propagation". It is for those really short articles that are barely a paragraph or two where the whole concept is to "follow a link" to somewhere else. Do NOT post bare links, at least write a short bit about why following this link would be interesting. It is basically pointing out that someone else's article is cool/worthy and that we should follow your link to learn more. (http://www.kuro5hin.org/?op=special;page=article#kind) ((There is a more susinct definition at everything2.com, but e2 is currently offline.)) Specifically the sentence, "Do NOT post bare links, at least write a short bit about why following this link would be interesting." seems appropriate from TLUG as well. In fact, regardless of how ineloquently I, Emir, and others have pursued this topic, what appears to be the effect in the quality of some of the postings is appreciated! I appreciate all aspects of TLUG, and do often rely on it for some of my news. In fact, I have been trying to only pull information lately, with the exception of TLUG and newscan, because I have always found there are just too many interesting things going on out there. It gets worse the more you know. If I keep up with everything I am interested in, I do not apply any of the knowledge, or said another way, I get nothing done. Cheers, Lloyd -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lloyd-fEEwcc3XMu8jODpR/OX0VQ at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 6 16:33:53 2003 From: lloyd-fEEwcc3XMu8jODpR/OX0VQ at public.gmane.org (Lloyd D Budd) Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2003 11:33:53 -0500 Subject: Time for a new Linux In-Reply-To: <20031106105439.73342f4d.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <001701c3a429$47723fb0$0301a8c0@amazon> <3FAA2220.8030707@rogers.com> <20031106105439.73342f4d.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <1068136432.405.2980.camel@localhost> On Thu, 2003-11-06 at 10:54, JoeHill wrote: > On Thu, 06 Nov 2003 10:27:44 +0000 > Ilya Palagin uttered: > > > The only solution is LFS! > > For whom? LFS makes a Gentoo install look simple, and that's no mean > feat. Ouch, Gentoo install is quite easy, it is configuring that can be difficult -- assuming you do not have the kewl hardware ;-). Though having tried a live CD first, it can be a very sick carrot -- "I know this can work, BUT WHY CAN'T I GET IT TO WORK!" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 6 16:45:11 2003 From: henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org (Henry Spencer) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2003 11:45:11 -0500 (EST) Subject: what the fsck ? In-Reply-To: <3FAA657E.4080304-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FAA657E.4080304@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, 6 Nov 2003, David J Patrick wrote: > Does fsck check for hardware problems at all ? > If not, what does ? No, it doesn't, except insofar as it may accidentally trip over them in the course of doing its job. For finding hardware problems, you need hardware diagnostic programs. Those are, unfortunately, practically a lost art in the PC world. (For one thing, for maximum effectiveness they need to be specific to the particular hardware involved.) Henry Spencer henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From kru_tch-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 6 17:07:52 2003 From: kru_tch-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (Stephen Allen) Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2003 12:07:52 -0500 Subject: Postfix & Rogers Message-ID: <3FAA7FE8.2030801@yahoo.ca> Anyone using PostFix on Rogers ssmtp? If so, I need some help off list, if anyone is up to it. Thanks -- Best Regards, Steve -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From tom-mQDsgmoLwK3SUeElwK9/Pw at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 6 17:16:37 2003 From: tom-mQDsgmoLwK3SUeElwK9/Pw at public.gmane.org (Tom) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2003 12:16:37 -0500 Subject: Anti-Virus for desktop linux & win Message-ID: Since viruses are in the news alot, friends keep asking me to recommend anti-virus software to them. So, I did an analysis. It seems that Kaspersky (US$50) is the highest rated for virus-protection. FProt is free for Linux. My final recommendation is that you get 1 copy of Kaspersky and then put Fprot (Linux) or Avast (Win) on all your other machines. If someone asks you for a recommendation for Windows tell them to get Avast (or maybe AntiVir) for free rather than giving more money to Symantec. Here are the details: According to the VTC's tests in April 2003 for WinXP ftp://agn-www.informatik.uni-hamburg.de/pub/texts/tests/pc-av/2003-04/0xecsum.txt These are the best: SCN = NAI (McAfee) VirusScan 4.16.0 AVP = Kaspersky AntiVirus 3.0 (135) FSE = FSecure AntiVirus 1.00.1251 (win only) According to www.hackfix.org, these are the best: antidote kaspersky mcafee (NAI) norman pc-cillin (Trend Micro) And these are the worst: AVG EZ-antivirus (CA) Some Products -------------- Kaspersky (AVP) http://www.kasperskylabs.com/ Top rated but expensive. FProt (free on Linux) http://www.f-prot.com/ Pc-cillin by Trend Micro (also a firewall) http://www.trendmicro.com/en/products/desktop/pc-cillin/evaluate/overview.htm (It is also sold for Linux by IBM, for win by VCOM in SystemSuite) Top marks at hackfix, not listed at the VTC Avast (free, but Win only) http://www.asw.cz/i_idt_153.html Fairly Light. I tried it, and it seemed fine. AntiVir (free, but Win only) http://www.hbedv.com/produkte/work/work.htm Slow updates are reported. Tom. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From kru_tch-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 6 17:21:35 2003 From: kru_tch-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (Stephen Allen) Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2003 12:21:35 -0500 Subject: news URLs In-Reply-To: <1068136151.409.2971.camel-bi+AKbBUZKZeoWH0uzbU5w@public.gmane.org> References: <3FA7F429.30308@codemonkeys.org> <3FA7F787.2060401@yahoo.ca> <3FA7FB86.9030105@codemonkeys.org> <3FA7FE2B.1010001@yahoo.ca> <63293.129.42.208.182.1067978545.squirrel@www.foolswisdom.com> <3FA82018.6060308@yahoo.ca> <49567.129.42.208.182.1067988029.squirrel@www.foolswisdom.com> <3FA8419B.2070600@yahoo.ca> <63015.129.42.208.182.1067996164.squirrel@www.foolswisdom.com> <3FA84CF7.7020807@yahoo.ca> <1068136151.409.2971.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <3FAA831F.5070901@yahoo.ca> Lloyd D Budd wrote: > On Tue, 2003-11-04 at 20:05, Stephen Allen wrote: >>You didn't mention, urls of news items, I had checked before I asked... >>you didn't exclude, it though. No matter, it not a big issue, it appears most >>don't seem to mind news urls being posted. :)) > > > I tried to mention it, but obviously I chose the wrong key words ;-) In > my post that I reference above, I list MLP as a small 'annoyance'. The > term originates from kuro5hin: Ah kuro5hin, never could get into that zine/website... > Specifically the sentence, "Do NOT post bare links, at least write a > short bit about why following this link would be interesting." seems > appropriate from TLUG as well. In fact, regardless of how ineloquently > I, Emir, and others have pursued this topic, what appears to be the > effect in the quality of some of the postings is appreciated! I don't think I've ever seen a link/url posted here, without at least an explanation in the subject, or in the body. Maybe one or two occurrences have happened, but by far I'm confident most have had an explanation. > I appreciate all aspects of TLUG, and do often rely on it for some of my > news. In fact, I have been trying to only pull information lately, with > the exception of TLUG and newscan, because I have always found there are > just too many interesting things going on out there. It gets worse the > more you know. If I keep up with everything I am interested in, I do > not apply any of the knowledge, or said another way, I get nothing done. I understand this problem completely. :) -- Best Regards, Steve -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From tim-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 6 17:53:11 2003 From: tim-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Tim Writer) Date: 06 Nov 2003 12:53:11 -0500 Subject: Time for a new Linux In-Reply-To: <20031106105227.490c272e.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <001701c3a429$47723fb0$0301a8c0@amazon> <3FAA2220.8030707@rogers.com> <20031106105227.490c272e.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: JoeHill writes: > On Thu, 06 Nov 2003 10:27:44 +0000 > Ilya Palagin uttered: > > > The problem is that there is no distribution like this :-( > > > > Debian is too behind the times > > If you install Debian Stable, yes. If you install Debian Testing, it > is/can be just as up-to-date as Mandrake. It's not an either/or proposition. IOW, you can run stable with only the components of testing or unstable you specifically need. So you can see how this is done, here's my /etc/apt/preferences: X-comment: ==================== Track stable Package: * Pin: release a=stable Pin-Priority: 500 X-comment: ==================== Make testing available (for manual selection) Package: * Pin: release a=testing Pin-Priority: 70 X-comment: ==================== Make unstable available (for manual selection) Package: * Pin: release a=unstable Pin-Priority: 50 Only recently, OpenOffice.org 1.1 was added to testing. I ran: apt-get -t testing install openoffice.org The "-t testing" argument tells apt-get to temporarily raise the priority of testing (above 500 [stable], I'm not sure of the exact value) so that my previous version of OOo (and any missing dependencies) will be upgraded from testing. Sometimes, it can be a little tricky to get this right but overall, it works well. This is documented, albeit somewhat sparsly, at the main Debian web site: http://www.debian.org. Currently, I'm running Debian stable with: o kernel 2.4.21, o XFree86 4.3.0 with drm-trunk-module-src 2003.07.25 to support DRM on the recent Intel chipset on my Dell notebook, o KDE 3.1.3, o GNOME 2.4, and o OpenOffice.org 1.1. In other words, I have a very up to date desktop running on a stable foundation. This is the best of both worlds. -- tim writer starnix inc. 905.771.0017 ext. 225 thornhill, ontario, canada http://www.starnix.com professional linux services & products -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 5 21:50:23 2003 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter L. Peres) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 23:50:23 +0200 (IST) Subject: Help w/ Biz name In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > -> Geek Does Windows (not much help if you specialize in Linux) How about 'Geek, does not do Windows' ? Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From IlyaPalagin-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 6 18:14:41 2003 From: IlyaPalagin-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Ilya Palagin) Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2003 13:14:41 -0500 Subject: Time for a new Linux In-Reply-To: <20031106105227.490c272e.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <001701c3a429$47723fb0$0301a8c0@amazon> <3FAA2220.8030707@rogers.com> <20031106105227.490c272e.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <3FAA8F91.7070804@rogers.com> JoeHill wrote: > On Thu, 06 Nov 2003 10:27:44 +0000 > Ilya Palagin uttered: > > >>The problem is that there is no distribution like this :-( >> >>Debian is too behind the times > > > If you install Debian Stable, yes. If you install Debian Testing, it > is/can be just as up-to-date as Mandrake. > > here is a list of packages avail in testing: > > http://ftp-master.debian.org/testing/update_excuses.html > > Note the appearance of things like Gnome 2.4, OO 1.1, Mozilla 1.4, etc. > > >> Mandrake is too ahead of the times > > > Examples? Mandrake 9.2. As far as I know, there are about 200MB of updates already. Wasn't the release crude? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From blsonne-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 6 19:30:41 2003 From: blsonne-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Byron Sonne) Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2003 14:30:41 -0500 Subject: Time for a new Linux In-Reply-To: <1068123861.405.2877.camel-bi+AKbBUZKZeoWH0uzbU5w@public.gmane.org> References: <001701c3a429$47723fb0$0301a8c0@amazon> <3FA9FA06.30702@rogers.com> <1068123861.405.2877.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <3FAAA161.9080109@rogers.com> > I also know many, many very satisfied SuSE users. Though didn't they > 'dump' the consumer (desktop) market some time ago? Maybe in north america, but north america != world. > My reason for only > dealing with it when I have to, which is actually quite a bit, is its > closed source pkg management system. For me to choose a closed source > solution, I have to find a very good reason. I'm not sure what you mean by closed source package management system. It's all rpm based, you could work your package management via nothing but an xterm if you wanted to. > Do you mean to say that it is not made by some sloppy German company? > Or what are you trying to say here? -- is it worth saying? I'm biased (probably more accurate to say a bigot) here, I've found euro (German and Scandinavian in particular) coders on the whole to be much tighter and cleaner when it comes to coding or putting stuff together. Whether 16 colour C64 demos or KDE. Yanks, on the other hand, seem to be alot more profit driven with a "yeah, it's almost ok and we need to get to market asap to make money" kind of deal. -- For good, return good. For evil, return justice. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lloyd-fEEwcc3XMu8jODpR/OX0VQ at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 6 18:57:51 2003 From: lloyd-fEEwcc3XMu8jODpR/OX0VQ at public.gmane.org (Lloyd D Budd) Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2003 13:57:51 -0500 Subject: Mandrake is too ahead? In-Reply-To: <3FAA8F91.7070804-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <001701c3a429$47723fb0$0301a8c0@amazon> <3FAA2220.8030707@rogers.com> <20031106105227.490c272e.joehill@sympatico.ca> <3FAA8F91.7070804@rogers.com> Message-ID: <1068145071.409.3238.camel@localhost> On Thu, 2003-11-06 at 13:14, Ilya Palagin wrote: > JoeHill wrote: > > > On Thu, 06 Nov 2003 10:27:44 +0000 > > Ilya Palagin uttered: > > > >> Mandrake is too ahead of the times > > > > > > Examples? > > Mandrake 9.2. As far as I know, there are about 200MB of updates > already. Wasn't the release crude? That does sound like a lot, but... How long has 9.2 been out? Was "core" functionality broken? What functionality? Estimate of percentage of users affected? For how long? Answers to those questions, though qualitative, would be more meaningful to me if I were to consider whether "Mandrake is too ahead". -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From aacton-B71PBEe7S7Y at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 6 20:49:01 2003 From: aacton-B71PBEe7S7Y at public.gmane.org (Austin) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2003 15:49:01 -0500 Subject: Time for a new Linux In-Reply-To: <3FAA8F91.7070804-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org>; from IlyaPalagin-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org on Thu, Nov 06, 2003 at 13:14:41 -0500 References: <001701c3a429$47723fb0$0301a8c0@amazon> <3FAA2220.8030707@rogers.com> <20031106105227.490c272e.joehill@sympatico.ca> <3FAA8F91.7070804@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20031106204901.GA2155@groundstate.chem.yorku.ca> On 11/06/2003 01:14:41 PM, Ilya Palagin wrote: > Mandrake 9.2. As far as I know, there are about 200MB of updates > already. Wasn't the release crude? Doesn't SuSe have a roughly equal amount for their latest? What about redhat? And considering that they have 10x more developers and 100-1000x more cash, I think Mandrake did okay this time around. Austin -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 6 21:30:12 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2003 16:30:12 -0500 Subject: Mandrake is too ahead? In-Reply-To: <1068145071.409.3238.camel-bi+AKbBUZKZeoWH0uzbU5w@public.gmane.org> References: <001701c3a429$47723fb0$0301a8c0@amazon> <3FAA2220.8030707@rogers.com> <20031106105227.490c272e.joehill@sympatico.ca> <3FAA8F91.7070804@rogers.com> <1068145071.409.3238.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <20031106163012.17663ddd.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Thu, 06 Nov 2003 13:57:51 -0500 Lloyd D Budd uttered: > That does sound like a lot, but... > How long has 9.2 been out? Was "core" functionality broken? What > functionality? Estimate of percentage of users affected? For how > long? Answers to those questions, though qualitative, would be more > meaningful to me if I were to consider whether "Mandrake is too > ahead". IIRC, most of the updates were for KDE, mainly bugfixes, and of course the LG-crap-CDROM-frying-kernel I guess. I didn't see a lot of people on the MDK lists complaining, in fact quite the opposite. No "core" functionality was broken that I'm aware of at all. The response time, really, should be commended, considering, as Austin points out, the resources are mainly volunteer testers/package maintainers and not much else. -- JoeHill Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Superstition, idolatry, and hypocrisy have ample wages, but truth goes a-begging. -- Martin Luther -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lloyd-fEEwcc3XMu8jODpR/OX0VQ at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 6 22:05:42 2003 From: lloyd-fEEwcc3XMu8jODpR/OX0VQ at public.gmane.org (Lloyd D Budd) Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2003 17:05:42 -0500 Subject: SuSE's pkg managemetn In-Reply-To: <3FAAA161.9080109-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <001701c3a429$47723fb0$0301a8c0@amazon> <3FA9FA06.30702@rogers.com> <1068123861.405.2877.camel@localhost> <3FAAA161.9080109@rogers.com> Message-ID: <1068156341.409.3641.camel@localhost> On Thu, 2003-11-06 at 14:30, Byron Sonne wrote: > > My reason for only > > dealing with it when I have to, which is actually quite a bit, is its > > closed source pkg management system. For me to choose a closed source > > solution, I have to find a very good reason. > > I'm not sure what you mean by closed source package management system. > It's all rpm based, you could work your package management via nothing > but an xterm if you wanted to. What does "work your package management" mean to you? For example, using only OSS can you manage and update your software almost as well as you can on Debian? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From blsonne-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 6 22:53:25 2003 From: blsonne-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Byron Sonne) Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2003 17:53:25 -0500 Subject: SuSE's pkg managemetn In-Reply-To: <1068156341.409.3641.camel-bi+AKbBUZKZeoWH0uzbU5w@public.gmane.org> References: <001701c3a429$47723fb0$0301a8c0@amazon> <3FA9FA06.30702@rogers.com> <1068123861.405.2877.camel@localhost> <3FAAA161.9080109@rogers.com> <1068156341.409.3641.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <3FAAD0E5.6080701@rogers.com> > What does "work your package management" mean to you? For example, > using only OSS can you manage and update your software almost as well as > you can on Debian? Pretty much what it sounds like: manage your packages, update system, etc. Better than debian, if you ask me, as my experiences with apt-get are not particularly positive. One of those YMMV things, I guess. And I quote: "Like all other parts of YaST2, the YaST2 package manager is licensed under the terms of the YaST2 license. While not quite as liberal as other licenses, it is still open source: Of course we ship the sources along with it - just like the other packages of the SuSE distribution. There are some restrictions, but most of them are relevant only for commercial use - i.e. it prohibits other companies from making profit by simply repacking and rebranding the SuSE distributions." -- For good, return good. For evil, return justice. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From ssadams-cO7Vpxpd/wCZ9vWoFJJngh2eb7JE58TQ at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 6 22:56:10 2003 From: ssadams-cO7Vpxpd/wCZ9vWoFJJngh2eb7JE58TQ at public.gmane.org (Scott Adams) Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2003 17:56:10 -0500 Subject: Postfix & Rogers In-Reply-To: <3FAA7FE8.2030801-FFYn/CNdgSA@public.gmane.org> References: <3FAA7FE8.2030801@yahoo.ca> Message-ID: <1068159370.3791.2.camel@main.ssadams.dyndns.org> Yea, I have been using it for years with rogers, and so far no problems. Feel free to send me an email directly if you like. Scott On Thu, 2003-11-06 at 12:07, Stephen Allen wrote: > Anyone using PostFix on Rogers ssmtp? > > If so, I need some help off list, if anyone is up to it. > > Thanks -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From kcozens-qazKcTl6WRFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 6 23:07:21 2003 From: kcozens-qazKcTl6WRFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Kevin Cozens) Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2003 18:07:21 -0500 Subject: backup stratagems In-Reply-To: <52209.129.42.208.182.1068001421.squirrel@www.foolswisdom.c om> References: <3FA852DC.700@sympatico.ca> <3FA852DC.700@sympatico.ca> <52209.129.42.208.182.1068001421.squirrel@www.foolswisdom.c om> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20031106175134.01ecb9f0@mail.interlog.com> At 10:03 PM 11/04/2003 -0500, you wrote: > > Alright, backups are unquestionably essential. > >There was a very good newTLUG meeting about this 1.5yr ago: >http://tman.dyndns.org/~ttanski/backups/ > >Have things really changed? When I last looked around, after that >meeting, this is the list I made: > >gratis: > >storix: "FREE personal-edition" >arkeia: "try it for FREE" >tar/cfdisk >rsync: option to create a live backup on the system. >partimage >mondo >Webmin ? has filesystem backup, GNU tar... careful if services are up ;-) >Amanda >cpio >dd >taper Which (if any) of the above support backup to DVD drives? I used to do backups to 4mm DAT tape. However, after I had three tape drives stop working on me I no longer consider tape (or at least tape drives) to be a reliable way to backup hard drives. Not to say that many of you that use tape drives have had no problems. Also, does anyone know how things are going re: the ability to do packet writing to CD/DVD's? It works fine under Windows allowing a CD or DVD to be used as a rather large floppy. Under RedHat 9 I can mount a drive as '-t UDF' and can read the disks I created from Windows. Last I checked, write support was still considered experimental under Linux. Cheers! Kevin. (http://www.interlog.com/~kcozens/) Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172 |"What are we going to do today, Borg?" E-mail:kcozens at interlog dot com|"Same thing we always do, Pinkutus: Packet:ve3syb at ve3yra.#con.on.ca.na| Try to assimilate the world!" #include | -Pinkutus & the Borg -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jason-gaRZxGPHtpBxZtjKW1aY+1aTQe2KTcn/ at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 6 23:25:52 2003 From: jason-gaRZxGPHtpBxZtjKW1aY+1aTQe2KTcn/ at public.gmane.org (Jason Shein) Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2003 18:25:52 -0500 Subject: backup stratagems In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20031106175134.01ecb9f0-Nf8GSVjHSL5zk1aGpazrEgC/G2K4zDHf@public.gmane.org> References: <3FA852DC.700@sympatico.ca> <3FA852DC.700@sympatico.ca> <5.2.1.1.0.20031106175134.01ecb9f0@mail.interlog.com> Message-ID: <3FAAD880.80900@pcsecurityonline.com> Kevin Cozens wrote: > At 10:03 PM 11/04/2003 -0500, you wrote: > >> > Alright, backups are unquestionably essential. >> >> There was a very good newTLUG meeting about this 1.5yr ago: >> http://tman.dyndns.org/~ttanski/backups/ >> >> Have things really changed? When I last looked around, after that >> meeting, this is the list I made: >> >> gratis: >> >> storix: "FREE personal-edition" >> arkeia: "try it for FREE" >> tar/cfdisk >> rsync: option to create a live backup on the system. >> partimage >> mondo >> Webmin ? has filesystem backup, GNU tar... careful if services are up ;-) >> Amanda >> cpio >> dd >> taper > > > Which (if any) of the above support backup to DVD drives? I used to do > backups to 4mm DAT tape. However, after I had three tape drives stop > working on me I no longer consider tape (or at least tape drives) to be > a reliable way to backup hard drives. Not to say that many of you that > use tape drives have had no problems. > > Also, does anyone know how things are going re: the ability to do packet > writing to CD/DVD's? It works fine under Windows allowing a CD or DVD to > be used as a rather large floppy. Under RedHat 9 I can mount a drive > as '-t UDF' and can read the disks I created from Windows. Last I > checked, write support was still considered experimental under Linux. > > > Cheers! > > Kevin. (http://www.interlog.com/~kcozens/) > > Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172 |"What are we going to do today, Borg?" > E-mail:kcozens at interlog dot com|"Same thing we always do, Pinkutus: > Packet:ve3syb at ve3yra.#con.on.ca.na| Try to assimilate the world!" > #include | -Pinkutus & the Borg > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > I know mondo does without problems, though by the chatter on the devel list they are still having some minor issues with DVDRW. -- " Eventually people tire of repairing broken Windows, And decide to replace them with something stronger" (o_ //\ Linux - The Choice Of A GNU Generation V_/_ Jason Shein Linux Registered User #281100 jason-gaRZxGPHtpBxZtjKW1aY+1aTQe2KTcn/@public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From kru_tch-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Fri Nov 7 00:03:08 2003 From: kru_tch-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (Stephen Allen) Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2003 19:03:08 -0500 Subject: Postfix & Rogers In-Reply-To: <1068159370.3791.2.camel-uumoxI8ycxii+h6yj50FmE3ROdm4KHy8@public.gmane.org> References: <3FAA7FE8.2030801@yahoo.ca> <1068159370.3791.2.camel@main.ssadams.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <3FAAE13C.5000701@yahoo.ca> Scott Adams wrote: > Yea, I have been using it for years with rogers, and so far no problems. > Feel free to send me an email directly if you like. Thank-you. On it's way. -- Best Regards, Steve -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From rufmetal-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org Fri Nov 7 00:17:20 2003 From: rufmetal-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org (Chris Keelan) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2003 19:17:20 -0500 Subject: SCO has valid case In-Reply-To: References: <20030823155422.31987.qmail@wm0.netfirms.com> Message-ID: <20031106191720.21434e60.rufmetal@eol.ca> On Tue, 4 Nov 2003 14:49:52 -0500 (EST) Justin Zygmont wrote: >Too bad its going to be dragging on and on for years. Not if IBM wins it's Motion to Compel. At that point, SCO /must/ make known each and every allegedly infringing line of code allegedly donated by IBM to the Linux community. It's put-up or shut-up time for SCO and if they can't pony up, IBM will ask for, and probably be granted a dismissal of the lawsuit. This could all be over by Christmas, unless SCO can convince a judge that they have enough evidence to proceed. Even if there is actual SCO-owned code (shh, stop laughing) in the Linux kernel, the likelihood is that only IBM will be on the hook and the kernel hackers would probably remove it anyway. Now if the SCO v. IBM case gets dismissed, there's still the tiny matter of IBM alleging patent infringements and the RedHat suit for SCO to contend with. No matter which way they turn, they're fsck-ed. ~ C -- gpg pubkey fingerprint: 100E A98E E143 C326 547C A207 A704 F673 8B4E A754 **** "Now go away or I shall replace you with a very small shell script!" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From mr6re9-mI4xJ4qlgtBiLUuM0BA3LQ at public.gmane.org Fri Nov 7 00:50:21 2003 From: mr6re9-mI4xJ4qlgtBiLUuM0BA3LQ at public.gmane.org (GDHough) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2003 19:50:21 -0500 Subject: what the fsck ? In-Reply-To: <3FAA657E.4080304-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FA99F8D.1090504@sympatico.ca> <3FAA657E.4080304@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <200311061950.21285.mr6re9@execulink.com> On Thursday 06 November 2003 10:15, David J Patrick wrote: > (replying to himself) > Does fsck check for hardware problems at all ? I don't know about that, but if it's a fujitsu drive back-up and replace before it's too late. I had two fail in the last year. On both my duell boot systems, the report is always FAT support is still alpha. Blah, blah, blah and NOT AUTOMATICALLY FIXING THIS. > If not, what does ? hdparm? > djp > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml farmer6re9 -- Eating Crow is better with MyCrowSauce -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Fri Nov 7 01:28:16 2003 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2003 20:28:16 -0500 Subject: Time for a new Linux In-Reply-To: <001701c3a429$47723fb0$0301a8c0-vAnPq90cUBg@public.gmane.org> References: <001701c3a429$47723fb0$0301a8c0@amazon> Message-ID: <20031107012816.GA29176@m433> On Thu, Nov 06, 2003 at 12:46:08AM -0500, Teddy Mills wrote > So if RH is exiting, and Fedora is too new, what Linux should I look for, > that is... > > similar to RH keeps a good balance. (that is, not too behind the > times or ahead of the times) keeps current Debian is actually different than the stereotypes. If you want only old stuff, download ISO 1 and ISO 2 and install from them. If you want ReiserFS and USB support and devfs, download ISO 5 as well as 1 and 2. Boot from ISO 5, the extras get installed, and then 1 and 2 add the standard basics. This is all on the "stable" branch. You can mix in items from "testing" (beta?) and "unstable" (alpha?). I made the jump away from Redhat a couple of months ago. Redhat hadn't yet announced Fedora replacing standard Redhat Linux, but I had gotten sick and tired of version-du-jour with a Windows-like upgrade treadmill. I'm a linux hobbyist, but I also want to spend more of my time actually *USING* the OS versus *UPGRADING* it. -- Walter Dnes Email users are divided into two classes; 1) Those who have effective spam-blocking 2) Those who wish they did -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org Fri Nov 7 03:16:59 2003 From: cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org (cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org) Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2003 22:16:59 -0500 Subject: SCO has valid case In-Reply-To: Message from Chris Keelan of "Thu, 06 Nov 2003 19:17:20 EST." <20031106191720.21434e60.rufmetal-MwcKTmeKVNQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20030823155422.31987.qmail@wm0.netfirms.com> <20031106191720.21434e60.rufmetal@eol.ca> Message-ID: <20031107031700.6B885450A@cbbrowne.com> > No matter which way they turn, they're fsck-ed. Well, there's ONE "way out," namely for them to be "right" about all of their claims, or at least, for the relevant court to see things that way. Which is less impossible than we'd like it to be :-(. -- let name="cbbrowne" and tld="acm.org" in name ^ "@" ^ tld;; http://cbbrowne.com/info/linuxdistributions.html debugging, v: Removing the needles from the haystack. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From rufmetal-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org Fri Nov 7 03:34:30 2003 From: rufmetal-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org (Chris Keelan) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2003 22:34:30 -0500 Subject: SCO has valid case In-Reply-To: <20031107031700.6B885450A-xzRQuAxiFLNWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org> References: <20030823155422.31987.qmail@wm0.netfirms.com> <20031106191720.21434e60.rufmetal@eol.ca> <20031107031700.6B885450A@cbbrowne.com> Message-ID: <20031106223430.19612643.rufmetal@eol.ca> On Thu, 06 Nov 2003 22:16:59 -0500 cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org wrote: > > No matter which way they turn, they're fsck-ed. > > Well, there's ONE "way out," namely for them to be "right" about all > of their claims, or at least, for the relevant court to see things > that way. Which is less impossible than we'd like it to be :-(. I'm scared about the court's perceptions as well, but as for the strength of SCO's case: why are they acting as if they don't even believe the allegations? Their response to IBM's Motion to Compel was *lame*. Hope the judge sees it that way. ~ C -- gpg pubkey fingerprint: 100E A98E E143 C326 547C A207 A704 F673 8B4E A754 **** "There are 10 kinds of people in the world. Those who understand binary and those who don't." -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From marcus.brubaker-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Fri Nov 7 05:00:30 2003 From: marcus.brubaker-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Marcus Brubaker) Date: Fri, 07 Nov 2003 00:00:30 -0500 Subject: System configuration In-Reply-To: <3FAA3477.1030302-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <200311041532.28660.fraser@wehave.net> <59878.129.42.208.182.1067992236.squirrel@www.foolswisdom.com> <20031105030114.EEE7444BB@cbbrowne.com> <1068039735.407.2717.camel@localhost> <3FA95A62.60205@sympatico.ca> <20031105152207.6ae44038.joehill@sympatico.ca> <1068078227.20337.26.camel@rincewind.discworld> <3FA99DB9.9080700@sympatico.ca> <20031106024534.C3EC144BB@cbbrowne.com> <20031106031958.GA281@node1.opengeometry.net> <1068094922.20337.76.camel@rincewind.discworld> <3FAA3477.1030302@rogers.com> Message-ID: <1068181230.20337.89.camel@rincewind.discworld> On Thu, 2003-11-06 at 06:45, James Knott wrote: > Marcus Brubaker wrote: > > On Wed, 2003-11-05 at 22:19, William Park wrote: > > > >>On Wed, Nov 05, 2003 at 09:45:33PM -0500, cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org wrote: > >> > >>>>I though linuxconf was the bees knees! Where d'it go ? > >>> > >>>The plans were vastly more ambitious than the outcome, and the project > >>>crumbled under the complexity. > >>> > >>>The complexity of building extension modules was such that only the most > >>>devoted of developers were prepared to put the effort into building > >>>them. > >>> > >>>Interest in Linuxconf collapsed shortly thereafter, alongside the > >>>failure of similar ambitions in Caldera's COAS system. > >>> > >>>The tools that are of ongoing relevance are: > >>> > >>> a) Webmin, which has an easier system for integrating in modules > >>> written in Perl, instead of in C++, and > >> > >>I could write Linuxconf in shell (and its friends), if they paid me. > >> > > > > > > The sheer amount of arbitrary text processing required makes perl an > > easier choice for those kinds of modules, hence the success of Webmin > > and, relative, failure of Linuxconf. Of course, by an informal > > extension to the Church-Turing Thesis we can claim that all languages > > are equally powerful, so yeah, you could do it shell. But I don't know > > if there's enough money out there to make it worth my while to write > > something like that in shell. Ick.... > > > > Well, there's always Visual Basic. ;-) > Touche :) -- Marcus Brubaker -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From kcozens-qazKcTl6WRFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Fri Nov 7 06:01:25 2003 From: kcozens-qazKcTl6WRFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Kevin Cozens) Date: Fri, 07 Nov 2003 01:01:25 -0500 Subject: backup stratagems In-Reply-To: <3FAAD880.80900-gaRZxGPHtpBxZtjKW1aY+1aTQe2KTcn/@public.gmane.org> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20031106175134.01ecb9f0@mail.interlog.com> <3FA852DC.700@sympatico.ca> <3FA852DC.700@sympatico.ca> <5.2.1.1.0.20031106175134.01ecb9f0@mail.interlog.com> <3FAAD880.80900@pcsecurityonline.com> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20031107005507.01e8bec0@mail.interlog.com> At 06:25 PM 11/06/2003 -0500, Jason wrote: >Kevin Cozens wrote: >>Which (if any) of the above support backup to DVD drives? >I know mondo does without problems, though by the chatter on the devel >list they are still having some minor issues with DVDRW. I had mindi/mondo on my system. It only supported CD-R/RW drives. I checked the web site and I see the development version has support for DVD-R. Looks like they don't yet support DVD-RW which is what I wanted to use. Thanks for getting me to look at the official site again. I'll have to keep an eye on the development of this project and possibly see if I can help contribute to it so I will be able to use it sooner. Cheers! Kevin. (http://www.interlog.com/~kcozens/) Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172 |"What are we going to do today, Borg?" E-mail:kcozens at interlog dot com|"Same thing we always do, Pinkutus: Packet:ve3syb at ve3yra.#con.on.ca.na| Try to assimilate the world!" #include | -Pinkutus & the Borg -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Fri Nov 7 11:20:04 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2003 06:20:04 -0500 Subject: SCO has valid case In-Reply-To: <20031107031700.6B885450A-xzRQuAxiFLNWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org> References: <20030823155422.31987.qmail@wm0.netfirms.com> <20031106191720.21434e60.rufmetal@eol.ca> <20031107031700.6B885450A@cbbrowne.com> Message-ID: <20031107062004.435a7961.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Thu, 06 Nov 2003 22:16:59 -0500 cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org uttered: > > No matter which way they turn, they're fsck-ed. > > Well, there's ONE "way out," namely for them to be "right" about all > of their claims, or at least, for the relevant court to see things > that way. Which is less impossible than we'd like it to be :-(. If you want the nitty-gritty on why SCO is not right, objectively speaking, check this out: http://www.opensource.org/halloween/halloween9.html and the SCO archives at Groklaw: http://www.groklaw.net/staticpages/index.php?page=20030831173953678 Most anyone who has a passing familiarity with case or IP law, is not owned by MS or SCO, and has half a brain, agrees that SCO's case is pure BS. What scares *me* is that although, AFAIK, most judges in the US have a passing familiarity with case and/or IP law, I have no confidence whatsoever in them rendering a decision that is based on them having more than half a brain ;-) And as for being "owned", well, we all saw what happened in the DOJ case against MS after Bush made his views known. -- JoeHill Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ If we do not change our direction we are likely to end up where we are headed. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Fri Nov 7 11:37:47 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2003 06:37:47 -0500 Subject: Kernel 2.6 *almost* trojaned Message-ID: <20031107063747.2cf66a33.joehill@sympatico.ca> >From Newsforge: " In a stunning verification of Eric S. Raymond's open source adage, "Many eyes make all bugs shallow," an attempt to place malicious "backdoor" code in the Linux kernel 2.6 development tree was detected and rejected almost immediately." One thing that occurred to me, thinking about Eric's adage, there are really *no* eyes on the Windows "kernel" (or whatever you call it). How many unknown/deliberate backdoors could be in *there*? Link: http://www.newsforge.com/article.pl?sid=03/11/06/1532223 -- JoeHill Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Nasrudin walked into a teahouse and declaimed, "The moon is more useful than the sun." "Why?", he was asked. "Because at night we need the light more." -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lr1003-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Nov 7 14:03:46 2003 From: lr1003-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Michael L YANG) Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2003 06:03:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: PDF files In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20031107140346.78332.qmail@web21308.mail.yahoo.com> Dear all, I am now filling some pdf forms and I have got Adobe Acrobat. I realized that I can only 'edit' existing text, but not able to fill-in spaces in the form. Am I doing something wrong or the application doesn't support it at all. If not, how do people input text into a pdf form. Your help would be much appreciated, Regards, Michael --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason-2F8E0OLjuh154TAoqtyWWQ at public.gmane.org Fri Nov 7 15:05:04 2003 From: jason-2F8E0OLjuh154TAoqtyWWQ at public.gmane.org (Jason Slaughter) Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2003 10:05:04 -0500 Subject: Kernel 2.6 *almost* trojaned In-Reply-To: <20031107063747.2cf66a33.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <20031107063747.2cf66a33.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <200311071005.04801.jason@slaughter.com> > One thing that occurred to me, thinking about Eric's adage, there are > really *no* eyes on the Windows "kernel" (or whatever you call it). How > many unknown/deliberate backdoors could be in *there*? Well this particular hack was detected by automated software, not a pair of human eyes, so if it were in closed source, and they were using the same software, it would have been caught there too. I tend to agree with the "ManyMany eyes make all bugs shallow" statement, but this recent incident is not an example it in action. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Fri Nov 7 15:48:20 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2003 10:48:20 -0500 Subject: Kernel 2.6 *almost* trojaned In-Reply-To: <200311071005.04801.jason-2F8E0OLjuh154TAoqtyWWQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20031107063747.2cf66a33.joehill@sympatico.ca> <200311071005.04801.jason@slaughter.com> Message-ID: <20031107104820.5f6fbae2.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Fri, 7 Nov 2003 10:05:04 -0500 Jason Slaughter uttered: > > One thing that occurred to me, thinking about Eric's adage, there > > are really *no* eyes on the Windows "kernel" (or whatever you call > > it). How many unknown/deliberate backdoors could be in *there*? > > Well this particular hack was detected by automated software, not a > pair of human eyes, so if it were in closed source, and they were > using the same software, it would have been caught there too. > > I tend to agree with the "ManyMany eyes make all bugs shallow" > statement, but this recent incident is not an example it in action. I don't think whether the eyes are human or not is relevant, as Linus' comments on the incident illustrate: "But the thing is, unlike a lot of other projects, Linux kernel development isn't actually done using a central CVS tree _at_all_." Because the development is distributed across many many public and private channels, there is more of a chance that things like this will be detected, whether by automated software or not. Hence, I believe, Eric's statement does seem relevant in this case after all. -- JoeHill Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ If little green men land in your back yard, hide any little green women you've got in the house. -- Mike Harding, "The Armchair Anarchist's Almanac" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From kru_tch-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Fri Nov 7 16:31:05 2003 From: kru_tch-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (Stephen Allen) Date: Fri, 07 Nov 2003 11:31:05 -0500 Subject: PDF files In-Reply-To: <20031107140346.78332.qmail-B441/IRqhiSA/QwVtaZbd3CJp6faPEW9@public.gmane.org> References: <20031107140346.78332.qmail@web21308.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3FABC8C9.1030704@yahoo.ca> Michael L YANG wrote: > Dear all, > > > > I am now filling some pdf forms and I have got Adobe Acrobat. I realized > that I can only 'edit' existing text, but not able to fill-in spaces in > the form. Am I doing something wrong or the application doesn't support > it at all. If not, how do people input text into a pdf form. Acrobat Reader I assume? If it's version 5, one can fill in form fields and save the PDF. In version 6 of "Adobe Reader", one can only fill in the form fields, one can't save the PDF with them in. Of course this is assuming there are in fact form fields to begin with and not simply a scanned form/application saved as a PDF. If you wish, off list help, drop me a line. -- Best Regards, Steve -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From mgjk-cpI+UMyWUv9BDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Fri Nov 7 16:28:43 2003 From: mgjk-cpI+UMyWUv9BDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Mike Kallies) Date: Fri, 07 Nov 2003 11:28:43 -0500 Subject: Kernel 2.6 *almost* trojaned In-Reply-To: <200311071005.04801.jason-2F8E0OLjuh154TAoqtyWWQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20031107063747.2cf66a33.joehill@sympatico.ca> <200311071005.04801.jason@slaughter.com> Message-ID: <3FABC83B.8000600@idirect.com> Jason Slaughter wrote: >>One thing that occurred to me, thinking about Eric's adage, there are >>really *no* eyes on the Windows "kernel" (or whatever you call it). How >>many unknown/deliberate backdoors could be in *there*? > > Well this particular hack was detected by automated software, not a pair of > human eyes, so if it were in closed source, and they were using the same > software, it would have been caught there too. Actually, from the article, it appears that it was only a public CVS tree which was trojaned. A closed-source project would not have a public CVS tree. > I tend to agree with the "ManyMany eyes make all bugs shallow" statement, but > this recent incident is not an example it in action. There are plenty of eyes on closed software, and no doubt they'll be greatly rewarded for discovering such back doors, or severely punished by the full legal hand of the corporation for inserting such back doors. Many eyes make all bugs shallow, but, IMHO, very few eyes are capable of discovering the back doors, and fewer are looking. I do think the motivations in free software for finding bugs is greater. Cash isn't as powerful as every kid with a computer learning Kernel stuff trying their damnedest to find a cool bug for the kudos which would be lavished upon them by what ESR describes as a gift culture. A more interesting test would be if somebody sent in a patch which actually fixed one thing or introduced a new feature, but in the process created a subtle back door, like an intentionally placed unchecked buffer tucked into a race condition, low memory situation or an off-by-one counter. Admittedly the kind of bad coding which leads to the above kinds of security problems quickly raise the hair on the backs of experienced programmers, and the small-guy code contributed to the kernel is, from what I've read, pretty heavily scrutinized, so the odds of something like that getting through are probably close to zero. But an experienced programmer would know what types of things would stand a chance to slip through the cracks. -Mike -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jim.rootham-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Fri Nov 7 16:40:41 2003 From: jim.rootham-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jim Rootham) Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2003 11:40:41 -0500 Subject: Help w/ Biz name Message-ID: At 4:42 PM -0500 11/5/03, JoeHill wrote: >On Wed, 5 Nov 2003 23:46:59 +0200 (IST) >"Peter L. Peres" uttered: > >> >> just kidding, good luck, > >LOL! Thanks...the first anarcho-communist incorporation in Canadian >history? Nope, at least Dumont Graphics in Kitchener-Waterloo. Jim Rootham -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Fri Nov 7 16:51:47 2003 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Fri, 07 Nov 2003 11:51:47 -0500 Subject: Word .DOC viewer for Mozilla Message-ID: <3FABCDA3.6000604@alteeve.com> Hi all, I took the plung after selling a good number of Linux boxes to more technical users and for the first time sold a Linux (RH9) box to a "regular" end user. So far, all is well and they are quite happy (and so am I, being that much closer to a MS-free world!). They do have a few issues that they are (I am) trying to resolve. Mostly it is just usage questions. The biggest one for them right now it that apparently when an attachment came through on Outlook Express in MS-Word *.doc format they used to be able to read and print the document right in the e-mail program. I have shown them how to save the file to a directory and open it in OpenOffice but this is a pretty big thing to this user because of the number of docs she gets (she is in charge of hiring for her firm so she gets a lot of resumes). So, is there a small app that can simply view/print (not needed to edit) a word doc file right in Mozilla Mail? Many thanks!! Madison -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From talexb-SBdzbUvMQDunS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org Fri Nov 7 17:05:14 2003 From: talexb-SBdzbUvMQDunS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org (talexb-SBdzbUvMQDunS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org) Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2003 12:05:14 -0500 (EST) Subject: Help w/ Biz name In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hey, there's a blast from the past .. I worked with some of those folks. The two I remember were Carolyn von Bezold and Roscoe (with the bum leg). A very interesting environment for a wide-eyed first year university student. Are they still in business at the same location? Just curious. On Fri, 7 Nov 2003, Jim Rootham wrote: > At 4:42 PM -0500 11/5/03, JoeHill wrote: > >On Wed, 5 Nov 2003 23:46:59 +0200 (IST) > >"Peter L. Peres" uttered: > > > >> > >> just kidding, good luck, > > > >LOL! Thanks...the first anarcho-communist incorporation in Canadian > >history? > > Nope, at least Dumont Graphics in Kitchener-Waterloo. > > Jim Rootham > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jingsu-26n5VD7DAF2Tm46uYYfjYg at public.gmane.org Fri Nov 7 17:07:48 2003 From: jingsu-26n5VD7DAF2Tm46uYYfjYg at public.gmane.org (Jing Su) Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2003 12:07:48 -0500 Subject: Word .DOC viewer for Mozilla In-Reply-To: <3FABCDA3.6000604-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <3FABCDA3.6000604@alteeve.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 7 Nov 2003, Madison Kelly wrote: > right in the e-mail program. I have shown them how to save the file to a > directory and open it in OpenOffice but this is a pretty big thing to > this user because of the number of docs she gets (she is in charge of Is there a way to set up the MIME types so that clicking on the attachment in Mozilla mail will auto-pipe it to OO? Not as smooth as being embedded in the same window, but alteast no more explicit temp file management. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Fri Nov 7 17:12:34 2003 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Fri, 07 Nov 2003 12:12:34 -0500 Subject: Word .DOC viewer for Mozilla In-Reply-To: References: <3FABCDA3.6000604@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <3FABD282.5070605@alteeve.com> I was thinking os setting "application/.doc" in the helper applications section of Mozilla and telling it to use 'swriter' but I was worried about OO being so big that load times will be lost. I then thought of Abiword, but then formatting will be lost... Can you think of/so you know of an app that will display a word document quickly while leaving the formatting in tact? Thanks!! Madison Jing Su wrote: > On Fri, 7 Nov 2003, Madison Kelly wrote: > > >>right in the e-mail program. I have shown them how to save the file to a >>directory and open it in OpenOffice but this is a pretty big thing to >>this user because of the number of docs she gets (she is in charge of > > > Is there a way to set up the MIME types so that clicking on the attachment > in Mozilla mail will auto-pipe it to OO? Not as smooth as being embedded > in the same window, but alteast no more explicit temp file management. > > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jingsu-26n5VD7DAF2Tm46uYYfjYg at public.gmane.org Fri Nov 7 17:44:20 2003 From: jingsu-26n5VD7DAF2Tm46uYYfjYg at public.gmane.org (Jing Su) Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2003 12:44:20 -0500 Subject: Word .DOC viewer for Mozilla In-Reply-To: <3FABD282.5070605-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <3FABCDA3.6000604@alteeve.com> <3FABD282.5070605@alteeve.com> Message-ID: OO opens really fast if it is already in memory. It is smart enough to find an already running instance of itself so that it doesn't try to load multiple instances. If you open up OpenOffice, go to Help->Contents, and then index search for "command line parameters", there are some command line options for getting OO to run in the background, a-la QuickStart. Incurr the cost at machine boot and have fast starting OO during regular use. I've never tried to do this, so please let the list know what you find. Cheers, -Jing On Fri, 7 Nov 2003, Madison Kelly wrote: > I was thinking os setting "application/.doc" in the helper applications > section of Mozilla and telling it to use 'swriter' but I was worried > about OO being so big that load times will be lost. I then thought of > Abiword, but then formatting will be lost... Can you think of/so you > know of an app that will display a word document quickly while leaving > the formatting in tact? > > Thanks!! > > Madison -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jason-2F8E0OLjuh154TAoqtyWWQ at public.gmane.org Fri Nov 7 19:05:49 2003 From: jason-2F8E0OLjuh154TAoqtyWWQ at public.gmane.org (Jason Slaughter) Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2003 14:05:49 -0500 Subject: Word .DOC viewer for Mozilla In-Reply-To: References: <3FABCDA3.6000604@alteeve.com> <3FABD282.5070605@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <200311071405.50032.jason@slaughter.com> > If you open up OpenOffice, go to Help->Contents, and then index search for > "command line parameters", there are some command line options for getting > OO to run in the background, a-la QuickStart. Incurr the cost at machine > boot and have fast starting OO during regular use. > > I've never tried to do this, so please let the list know what you find. I've tried using OpenOffice's "quickstart" before. It's done with: soffice -quickstart The next document I open loads very quickly. One problem I see however, is that when I close the last OpenOffice document, the "soffice -quickstart" instance quits as well! So if I load one document, then close it, I need to run "soffice -quickstart" again before I open my *next* document. Is there any way to keep it persistently in memory, even after closing every document? Right now I'm using the following shell script, which is an awful, evil, hack: #! /bin/sh while (/bin/true) do /opt/OpenOffice.org1.1.0/soffice -quickstart done -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jim.rootham-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Fri Nov 7 19:59:04 2003 From: jim.rootham-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (jim.rootham-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org) Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2003 14:59:04 -0500 Subject: Help w/ Biz name Message-ID: <1068235144.3fabf988c69f4@webmail.utoronto.ca> At 12:05 PM -0500 11/7/03, talexb-SBdzbUvMQDunS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org wrote: >Hey, there's a blast from the past .. I worked with some of those folks. >The two I remember were Carolyn von Bezold and Roscoe (with the bum leg). > >A very interesting environment for a wide-eyed first year university >student. > >Are they still in business at the same location? Just curious. No. Cheap computers killed off the typesetting industry. > >On Fri, 7 Nov 2003, Jim Rootham wrote: > >> > >> >LOL! Thanks...the first anarcho-communist incorporation in Canadian >> >history? >> >> Nope, at least Dumont Graphics in Kitchener-Waterloo. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jzygmont-tEQKYFGiemxAYG7eUwYNkWD2FQJk+8+b at public.gmane.org Fri Nov 7 20:24:20 2003 From: jzygmont-tEQKYFGiemxAYG7eUwYNkWD2FQJk+8+b at public.gmane.org (Justin Zygmont) Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2003 15:24:20 -0500 (EST) Subject: Word .DOC viewer for Mozilla In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: there must be in the application helper section, I guess just specify the command line like the others are setup. I was also wondering the best way to handle .doc files in linux, openoffice, isn't 100%. On Fri, 7 Nov 2003, Jing Su wrote: > On Fri, 7 Nov 2003, Madison Kelly wrote: > > > right in the e-mail program. I have shown them how to save the file to a > > directory and open it in OpenOffice but this is a pretty big thing to > > this user because of the number of docs she gets (she is in charge of > > Is there a way to set up the MIME types so that clicking on the attachment > in Mozilla mail will auto-pipe it to OO? Not as smooth as being embedded > in the same window, but alteast no more explicit temp file management. > > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From dt-hKuJ9UrQZDM at public.gmane.org Fri Nov 7 20:27:53 2003 From: dt-hKuJ9UrQZDM at public.gmane.org (David Tilbrook) Date: Fri, 07 Nov 2003 15:27:53 -0500 Subject: reading & printing word docs Message-ID: <3FAC0049.5131501B@qef.com> Sorry ... I lost original message. See www.abisource.com Their AbiWord (availabel under GPL) works well enough that I can read and print word documents. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Fri Nov 7 20:51:39 2003 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2003 15:51:39 -0500 (EST) Subject: Fedora and audio problem (compile problem?) Message-ID: <33054.65.95.214.102.1068238299.squirrel@host.bettermarkets.com> Hi all, Well, I am building my -second- Linix machine for a relatively new user to Linux. Given the impending demise and rave reviews so far for Fedora Core 1 (and it's incredible similarity to Redhat ;) ) I decided to install it. (I know this person well which is why he is my beta customer on Fedora). Anywho, I have a problem getting the sound card to work but I think it's a compile error... maybe not. Specs: Integrated ADI 1985 AC'97 sound card on an Intel D865GLC mainboard. Anyway, when I try to compile this is what I get: -= Step One, Configure =- [root at phil alsa-driver-0.9.1adi_rev5]# ./configure --with-cards=intel8x0 --with-sequencer=yes checking for gcc... gcc checking for C compiler default output... a.out checking whether the C compiler works... yes checking whether we are cross compiling... no checking for executable suffix... checking for object suffix... o checking whether we are using the GNU C compiler... yes checking whether gcc accepts -g... yes checking for ranlib... ranlib checking for a BSD compatible install... /usr/bin/install -c checking how to run the C preprocessor... gcc -E checking for ANSI C header files... yes checking for gcc option to accept ANSI C... none needed checking for an ANSI C-conforming const... yes checking for inline... inline checking whether time.h and sys/time.h may both be included... yes checking whether gcc needs -traditional... no checking for current directory... /home/phil/options/drivers/audio/alsa-driver-0.9.1adi_rev5 checking cross compile... checking for directory with kernel source... /lib/modules/2.4.22-1.2115.nptl/build checking for kernel version... 2.4.22-1.2115.nptl checking for kenrel linux/pm.h... "yes" checking for kenrel linux/spinlock.h... "yes" checking for kenrel linux/irq.h... "yes" checking for kenrel linux/threads.h... "yes" checking for kenrel linux/rwsem.h... "yes" checking for kenrel linux/gameport.h... "yes" checking for kenrel linux/devfs_fs_kernel.h... "yes" Creating a dummy ... checking for kernel module symbol versions... "yes" checking for PCI support in kernel... "yes" checking for SGI/MIPS (HAL2) architecture... "no" checking for directory to store kernel modules... /lib/modules/2.4.22-1.2115.nptl/kernel/sound checking for verbose printk... on checking for debug level... none checking for ISA support in kernel... "yes" checking for processor type... i686 checking for SMP... "no" checking for ISA PnP driver in kernel... yes checking for ISA PnP support... yes checking for vmalloc_to_page... "yes" checking for driver version... 0.9.1 checking for sequencer support... yes checking for OSS/Free emulation... yes checking for RTC callback support in kernel... "no" checking for USB support... "no" checking for USB module support... "yes" checking for kernel PCMCIA checking for PCMCIA support... "no" checking for PCMCIA module support... "yes" checking for PC9800 support in kernel... "no" checking for which soundcards to compile driver for... intel8x0 configure: creating ./config.status config.status: creating version config.status: creating Makefile.conf config.status: creating snddevices config.status: creating utils/alsa-driver.spec config.status: creating utils/buildrpm config.status: creating toplevel.config config.status: creating include/config.h config.status: creating include/config1.h config.status: include/config1.h is unchanged config.status: creating include/version.h config.status: include/version.h is unchanged -= End Step 1 =- -= Step Two, Make (Here lies the errors) =- [root at phil alsa-driver-0.9.1adi_rev5]# make make[1]: *** Warning: File `/boot/kernel.h' has modification time in the future (2003-11-08 03:05:51 > 2003-11-07 03:12:53.020201) gcc -D__KERNEL__ -DMODULE=1 -I/home/phil/options/drivers/audio/alsa-driver-0.9.1adi_rev5/include -I/lib/modules/2.4.22-1.2115.nptl/build/include -O2 -mpreferred-stack-boundary=2 -march=i686 -DLINUX -Wall -Wstrict-prototypes -fomit-frame-pointer -Wno-trigraphs -O2 -fno-strict-aliasing -fno-common -pipe -DALSA_BUILD -DEXPORT_SYMTAB -c memalloc.c In file included from ../alsa-kernel/core/memalloc.c:27, from memalloc.c:28: /lib/modules/2.4.22-1.2115.nptl/build/include/linux/proc_fs.h:17: error: redefinition of `PDE' /home/phil/options/drivers/audio/alsa-driver-0.9.1adi_rev5/include/adriver.h:111: error: `PDE' previously defined here make[1]: *** [memalloc.o] Error 1 make[1]: Leaving directory `/home/phil/options/drivers/audio/alsa-driver-0.9.1adi_rev5/acore' make: *** [compile] Error 1 [root at phil alsa-driver-0.9.1adi_rev5]# -= End Step Two =- I gave up here, I tried 'make install' but it had similar errors (time in future, etc). Any idea what is wrong here? I set my date and clock to today and I untar'ed the file on this box so it's odd to me that the time issue would exist... Anyway, any help is appreciated! Madison -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jzygmont-tEQKYFGiemxAYG7eUwYNkWD2FQJk+8+b at public.gmane.org Fri Nov 7 20:26:28 2003 From: jzygmont-tEQKYFGiemxAYG7eUwYNkWD2FQJk+8+b at public.gmane.org (Justin Zygmont) Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2003 15:26:28 -0500 (EST) Subject: Word .DOC viewer for Mozilla In-Reply-To: <3FABD282.5070605-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <3FABD282.5070605@alteeve.com> Message-ID: I was wondering if there was a way to open MS-WORD through emulation for this? On Fri, 7 Nov 2003, Madison Kelly wrote: > I was thinking os setting "application/.doc" in the helper applications > section of Mozilla and telling it to use 'swriter' but I was worried > about OO being so big that load times will be lost. I then thought of > Abiword, but then formatting will be lost... Can you think of/so you > know of an app that will display a word document quickly while leaving > the formatting in tact? > > Thanks!! > > Madison > > Jing Su wrote: > > On Fri, 7 Nov 2003, Madison Kelly wrote: > > > > > >>right in the e-mail program. I have shown them how to save the file to a > >>directory and open it in OpenOffice but this is a pretty big thing to > >>this user because of the number of docs she gets (she is in charge of > > > > > > Is there a way to set up the MIME types so that clicking on the attachment > > in Mozilla mail will auto-pipe it to OO? Not as smooth as being embedded > > in the same window, but alteast no more explicit temp file management. > > > > > > -- > > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > > > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Fri Nov 7 20:52:58 2003 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2003 15:52:58 -0500 (EST) Subject: reading & printing word docs In-Reply-To: <3FAC0049.5131501B-hKuJ9UrQZDM@public.gmane.org> References: <3FAC0049.5131501B@qef.com> Message-ID: <33059.65.95.214.102.1068238378.squirrel@host.bettermarkets.com> Last I used Abiword (whatever version came with RH7.3) it lost fonts and formatting. Is that still an issue? Thanks! (And to the others, I'll let you know what works when I get back to the clients place). Madison > Sorry ... I lost original message. > > See www.abisource.com > > Their AbiWord (availabel under GPL) works > well enough that I can read and print > word documents. > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From blsonne-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Fri Nov 7 20:38:18 2003 From: blsonne-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Byron Sonne) Date: Fri, 07 Nov 2003 15:38:18 -0500 Subject: Word .DOC viewer for Mozilla In-Reply-To: <3FABCDA3.6000604-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <3FABCDA3.6000604@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <3FAC02BA.5090108@rogers.com> > So, is there a small app that can simply view/print (not needed to > edit) a word doc file right in Mozilla Mail? Give the crossover plugin from codeweavers a try: (http://www.codeweavers.com/site/products/cxplugin/) They do have a demo available, but I opted to buy the thing outright after a while. If you wanted, you just just roll your own by using wine and running the actual office viewers from Microsoft natively after setting up a helper app inside your browser. I love OO.o, but the the formatting is not 100% when importing word docs, hopefully that'll get fixed in the future. -- For good, return good. For evil, return justice. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Fri Nov 7 22:54:39 2003 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Fri, 07 Nov 2003 17:54:39 -0500 Subject: Word .DOC viewer for Mozilla In-Reply-To: <3FABCDA3.6000604-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <3FABCDA3.6000604@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <3FAC22AF.70007@rogers.com> Madison Kelly wrote: > Hi all, > > I took the plung after selling a good number of Linux boxes to more > technical users and for the first time sold a Linux (RH9) box to a > "regular" end user. So far, all is well and they are quite happy (and so > am I, being that much closer to a MS-free world!). > > They do have a few issues that they are (I am) trying to resolve. > Mostly it is just usage questions. The biggest one for them right now it > that apparently when an attachment came through on Outlook Express in > MS-Word *.doc format they used to be able to read and print the document > right in the e-mail program. I have shown them how to save the file to a > directory and open it in OpenOffice but this is a pretty big thing to > this user because of the number of docs she gets (she is in charge of > hiring for her firm so she gets a lot of resumes). > > So, is there a small app that can simply view/print (not needed to > edit) a word doc file right in Mozilla Mail? You should be able to set up OpenOffice to open attachments. Look in the Mozilla preferences, under helper applications. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Fri Nov 7 22:55:22 2003 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Fri, 07 Nov 2003 17:55:22 -0500 Subject: Word .DOC viewer for Mozilla In-Reply-To: References: <3FABCDA3.6000604@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <3FAC22DA.1040903@rogers.com> Jing Su wrote: > On Fri, 7 Nov 2003, Madison Kelly wrote: > > >>right in the e-mail program. I have shown them how to save the file to a >>directory and open it in OpenOffice but this is a pretty big thing to >>this user because of the number of docs she gets (she is in charge of > > > Is there a way to set up the MIME types so that clicking on the attachment > in Mozilla mail will auto-pipe it to OO? Not as smooth as being embedded > in the same window, but alteast no more explicit temp file management. Yes there is. See my note to Madison. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 8 02:31:42 2003 From: clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (CLIFFORD ILKAY) Date: Fri, 07 Nov 2003 21:31:42 -0500 Subject: Time for a new Linux In-Reply-To: <20031106073727.GA312-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <001701c3a429$47723fb0$0301a8c0@amazon> <001701c3a429$47723fb0$0301a8c0@amazon> <20031106073727.GA312@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20031107212840.09aa9008@localhost> At 02:37 06/11/2003 -0500, William Park wrote: >On Thu, Nov 06, 2003 at 12:46:08AM -0500, Teddy Mills wrote: > > So if RH is exiting, and Fedora is too new, what Linux should I look for, > > that is... > > > > similar to RH > > keeps a good balance. (that is, not too behind the times or ahead of the > > times) > > keeps current > > > > I dont know the BSDs, now would be a good time to correct this. > > > > > > The Linux and BSDs that I am leaning towards are > > > > Mandrake, FreeBSD, Slackware > >Try Slackware. You'd be surprised. It's bootup is more BSD than SysV. I happen to like run levels but that is because I cut my Unix teeth on Interactive Unix, not because of any strong religious beliefs about it. What is better about BSD style init? Regards, Clifford Ilkay Dinamis Corporation 3266 Yonge Street, Suite 1419 Toronto, Ontario Canada M4N 3P6 Tel: 416-410-3326 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From blsonne-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 8 02:59:50 2003 From: blsonne-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Byron Sonne) Date: Fri, 07 Nov 2003 21:59:50 -0500 Subject: Time for a new Linux In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20031107212840.09aa9008-bi+AKbBUZKZeoWH0uzbU5w@public.gmane.org> References: <001701c3a429$47723fb0$0301a8c0@amazon> <001701c3a429$47723fb0$0301a8c0@amazon> <5.2.0.9.0.20031107212840.09aa9008@localhost> Message-ID: <3FAC5C26.70905@rogers.com> > What is better about BSD style init? From a strictly technical point I don't think I can say one is better than the other. They would appear to serve their respective needs quite well. But the BSD init style resonates with me better because it is simpler. I honestly have never found the need to switch between run levels for any reason, system maintenance or not. The additional directory structure and scripts/links imposed by SysV init complicate the matter and offer me no functionality I care to avail myself of. Furthermore, I would conjecture that the boot process takes longer too due to the transitions between run levels that occurr, but I'm probably talking out my ass in this regard ;) -- For good, return good. For evil, return justice. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lists-Gb8Tj4xcA4YgsBAKwltoeQ at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 8 04:17:46 2003 From: lists-Gb8Tj4xcA4YgsBAKwltoeQ at public.gmane.org (Byron Q. Desnoyers Winmill) Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2003 23:17:46 -0500 (EST) Subject: Choosing a distro, PPC style ... Message-ID: FWIW, this comments reflect my *opinions*. I'm hoping to find somebody with sufficiently similar opinions to suggest a distribution which I may like. I have been using Debian on a PPC for three years now, and while it has its good points, I would like to switch away from it. The first qualification is obvious: it must be available for the PPC. This is a consumer grade machine (ie. Apple), not a fancy server (eg. IBM), nor an embedded thingy. A default install must be reasonably light weight. I abhor desktop managers, have been known to use X11 without a window manager, and have a nasty tendancy to use the console. (No Yellow Dog, SuSE?) A default install should contain basic programming tools: C is not my friend, but I am stuck using it; gdb is my friend, because I'm stuck using C. I don't need anything more sophisticated than that. Text processors (notably TeX) must also be available as a package. The package management system myst be sane! I'm tired of hunting down separate program, documentation, and development packages. Maintainers should also keep dependencies to a minimum. I have never understood the collection of tools shipped with Debian, and it was difficult to find stuff in the one tool which I am familiar with (dpkg, dselect). FWIW, I have found NetBSD's ports collection to be sane, particularly since it was easy to download binary packages. (No Debian, Gentoo?) I'm not partial to *BSD or Linux, but I have had trouble with NetBSD in the past -- with respect to supported hardware. (eg. upgrade a kernel, and the hard drive isn't detected; video is OpenFirmware only, and horrendously slow.) (No NetBSD?) Any suggestions, or is this a hopeless cause? Thank-you, Byron. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From gbell72-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 8 04:23:55 2003 From: gbell72-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (gbell72) Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2003 23:23:55 -0500 (EST) Subject: iptables Message-ID: Evening I'm trying to forward a port to one of my internal machines from the router so someone can connect to one of my servers but it doesn't seem to work so far. The rules I gave to do this are as folows: iptables -t nat -A PREROUTING -p tcp -i eth0 -d 192.168.0.1 --dport 8888 -j dnat --to 192.168.0.66:8888 and iptables -A FORWARD -p tcp -i eth0 -d 192.168.0.66 --dport 8888 -j ACCEPT I'm using coyote linux firewall and figured it to be as easy as forwarding a port but no luck. thanks Gardner -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From kru_tch-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 8 05:42:14 2003 From: kru_tch-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (Stephen Allen) Date: Sat, 08 Nov 2003 00:42:14 -0500 Subject: Choosing a distro, PPC style ... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3FAC8236.4070400@yahoo.ca> Byron Q. Desnoyers Winmill wrote: > FWIW, this comments reflect my *opinions*. I'm hoping to find somebody > with sufficiently similar opinions to suggest a distribution which I may > like. > > I have been using Debian on a PPC for three years now, and while it has > its good points, I would like to switch away from it. > > The first qualification is obvious: it must be available for the PPC. > This is a consumer grade machine (ie. Apple), not a fancy server (eg. > IBM), nor an embedded thingy. > Any suggestions, or is this a hopeless cause? Why not Apple's Darwin? Should support Apple hardware dandy. Otherwise Gentoo for PPC. -- Best Regards, Steve -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 6 18:29:06 2003 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter L. Peres) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2003 20:29:06 +0200 (IST) Subject: Time for a new Linux In-Reply-To: <3FA9FB55.2030608-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <001701c3a429$47723fb0$0301a8c0@amazon> <3FA9FA06.30702@rogers.com> <3FA9FB55.2030608@rogers.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 6 Nov 2003, Byron Sonne wrote: > Forgot to mention that SuSE is very SysV. Never really felt the love for > run levels ever again after working with BSD boxes though... Yeah. I ran Slack before, been on Suse for a while now. SysV init combined with automated package updating will give you some interesting riddles sometimes (like, *what* reactivated that service I just turned off now and why is it coming back at every reboot even if I delete its /etc/rc.d/S** link ?!). Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 8 08:38:29 2003 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter L. Peres) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2003 10:38:29 +0200 (IST) Subject: Word .DOC viewer for Mozilla In-Reply-To: <3FABCDA3.6000604-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <3FABCDA3.6000604@alteeve.com> Message-ID: > So, is there a small app that can simply view/print (not needed to > edit) a word doc file right in Mozilla Mail? Not that I know of, but why read mail with mozilla mail ? You can configure OO to read mail and you can also edit the default browser in OO to be mozilla (I have not tried the latter). Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 8 08:26:52 2003 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter L. Peres) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2003 10:26:52 +0200 (IST) Subject: what the fsck ? In-Reply-To: <200311061950.21285.mr6re9-mI4xJ4qlgtBiLUuM0BA3LQ@public.gmane.org> References: <3FA99F8D.1090504@sympatico.ca> <3FAA657E.4080304@sympatico.ca> <200311061950.21285.mr6re9@execulink.com> Message-ID: > > If not, what does ? > > hdparm? badblocks does it at low level. Read the manpage carefully! Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 8 08:44:19 2003 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter L. Peres) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2003 10:44:19 +0200 (IST) Subject: Word .DOC viewer for Mozilla In-Reply-To: <200311071405.50032.jason-2F8E0OLjuh154TAoqtyWWQ@public.gmane.org> References: <3FABCDA3.6000604@alteeve.com> <3FABD282.5070605@alteeve.com> <200311071405.50032.jason@slaughter.com> Message-ID: > #! /bin/sh > while (/bin/true) > do if -z [ "`pidof soffice`" ]; then > /opt/OpenOffice.org1.1.0/soffice -quickstart fi sleep 2 > done Imho add this. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 8 08:46:33 2003 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter L. Peres) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2003 10:46:33 +0200 (IST) Subject: Word .DOC viewer for Mozilla In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 7 Nov 2003, Justin Zygmont wrote: > there must be in the application helper section, I guess just specify the > command line like the others are setup. I was also wondering the best way > to handle .doc files in linux, openoffice, isn't 100%. OO is 100% the document generators are a moving target and make it impossible for OO to be 100% for new encodings. Try to open a recent .doc file with an older version of word and awe and wonder at the results. Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 8 08:41:35 2003 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter L. Peres) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2003 10:41:35 +0200 (IST) Subject: Word .DOC viewer for Mozilla In-Reply-To: <200311071405.50032.jason-2F8E0OLjuh154TAoqtyWWQ@public.gmane.org> References: <3FABCDA3.6000604@alteeve.com> <3FABD282.5070605@alteeve.com> <200311071405.50032.jason@slaughter.com> Message-ID: Imho open OO on a default document (template or such) and never close that instance. You can also keep your script. Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From mike.kirk-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 8 11:58:08 2003 From: mike.kirk-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (Mike Kirk) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2003 06:58:08 -0500 Subject: iptables References: Message-ID: <002901c3a5ef$97f098c0$1b00a8c0@cruncher> > iptables -t nat -A PREROUTING -p tcp -i eth0 -d 192.168.0.1 --dport 8888 -j dnat > --to 192.168.0.66:8888 > > iptables -A FORWARD -p tcp -i eth0 -d 192.168.0.66 --dport 8888 -j ACCEPT > > I'm using coyote linux firewall and figured it to be as easy as forwarding a > port but no luck. I use something like this: iptables -t nat -A PREROUTING -i ${INTERNET} -p tcp --dport 6346 -j DNAT --to-dest 192.168.0.27 iptables -A FORWARD -i ${INTERNET} -o ${INSIDE} -p tcp -d 192.168.0.27 --dport 6346 -j ACCEPT Since I'm not also redirecting the port my first line doesn't have the port on the end of the "to" address (which I guess may be valid anyways) and my 2nd line specifically has an output "-o" because of multiple interface, but I don't know if you need it as well. Does the internal machine already work with NAT through your router (i.e. can you web browse with it?). Maybe try stripping the port from "to" on your first line and just rely on the "--dport" in your second line to handle the port? Good luck! Mike -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From fcsoft-rxKNY4w4koG3ikBYyZqyVg at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 8 13:07:48 2003 From: fcsoft-rxKNY4w4koG3ikBYyZqyVg at public.gmane.org (bob findlay) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2003 08:07:48 -0500 Subject: best analysis of the SCO battle yet Message-ID: <20031108125957.1358342AA9@outbox.allstream.net> http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20031106164630915 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From scotta-cpI+UMyWUv9BDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 8 13:17:54 2003 From: scotta-cpI+UMyWUv9BDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Scott Allen) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2003 08:17:54 -0500 Subject: Slackware 9.0 default bash aliases Message-ID: <20031108131754.GA2181@localhost> Hi all, When I log in as root to a "virgin" Slackware 9.0 system and type "alias" I get the following: alias d='dir' alias dir='/bin/ls $LS_OPTIONS --format=vertical' alias ls='/bin/ls $LS_OPTIONS' alias v='vdir' alias vdir='/bin/ls $LS_OPTIONS --format=long' I've spent a few hours searching the system itself, and also google, and can't find where these aliases are being set up. I'd like to be able to change and add to these aliases. I'm sure I can figure out a way to do it (.bashrc, .profile or something), but it bothers me that I can't find the script or code that sets up these defaults. Anyone know where it is in Slackware 9.0? Thanks, -- ** Scott Allen scotta-cpI+UMyWUv9BDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org ** ** Toronto, Ontario, Canada ** -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 8 14:00:06 2003 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter L. Peres) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2003 16:00:06 +0200 (IST) Subject: Slackware 9.0 default bash aliases In-Reply-To: <20031108131754.GA2181-bi+AKbBUZKZeoWH0uzbU5w@public.gmane.org> References: <20031108131754.GA2181@localhost> Message-ID: afair it's /etc/profile also /etc/profile.d/ Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From mr6re9-mI4xJ4qlgtBiLUuM0BA3LQ at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 8 13:55:29 2003 From: mr6re9-mI4xJ4qlgtBiLUuM0BA3LQ at public.gmane.org (GDHough) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2003 08:55:29 -0500 Subject: iptables In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200311080855.29544.mr6re9@execulink.com> Don't forget to include a rule to the INPUT chain as well: iptables -I INPUT -p tcp -i eth0 --dport 8888 -j ACCEPT -A is usually OK in the FORWARD chain but from my experience forwarding ports to internal winboxes for online gaming -I is more likely to work. -I puts the rule at the beginning of the chain as opposed to at the end (APPEND) Try -I instead for all three. HTH, farmer6re9 On Friday 07 November 2003 23:23, gbell72 wrote: > Evening > > I'm trying to forward a port to one of my internal machines from the router > so someone can connect to one of my servers but it doesn't seem to work so > far. The rules I gave to do this are as folows: > > iptables -t nat -A PREROUTING -p tcp -i eth0 -d 192.168.0.1 --dport 8888 -j > dnat --to 192.168.0.66:8888 > > and > > iptables -A FORWARD -p tcp -i eth0 -d 192.168.0.66 --dport 8888 -j ACCEPT > > I'm using coyote linux firewall and figured it to be as easy as forwarding > a port but no luck. > > thanks > > Gardner > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- Eating Crow is better with MyCrowSauce -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From linuxnewbie-pCGr9Sw2R8Y at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 8 15:19:15 2003 From: linuxnewbie-pCGr9Sw2R8Y at public.gmane.org (ln @post.com) Date: Sat, 08 Nov 2003 10:19:15 -0500 Subject: linux = impossible? (no offense meant!) Message-ID: <20031108151915.10151.qmail@mail.com> Thought you would all get a chuckle (I hope) from this e-mail my teenage (grade 12) son sent me. Obviously he has a love-hate relationship with linux. But, on the serious side, WHY is it so difficult to install anything on linux? Can't we make installing software as easy as it is on Windows? -Peter. -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: AMSN Date: Fri, 07 Nov 2003 15:49:10 -0500 Hey Dad, That idiot who e-mailed you is retarded but after installing 6 bizillion other programmes that werent ever mentioned we managed to get amsn to actually work. it was like some sort of miracle of god anyways, linux = impossible Tom -- __________________________________________________________ Sign-up for your own personalized E-mail at Mail.com http://www.mail.com/?sr=signup Search Smarter - get the new eXact Search Bar for free! http://www.exactsearchbar.com/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From gbell72-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 8 15:37:12 2003 From: gbell72-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (gbell72) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2003 10:37:12 -0500 (EST) Subject: iptables In-Reply-To: <002901c3a5ef$97f098c0$1b00a8c0-ExAPTJ35rt4@public.gmane.org> References: <002901c3a5ef$97f098c0$1b00a8c0@cruncher> Message-ID: ok tht seems to work so far..thanks On Sat, 8 Nov 2003, Mike Kirk wrote: > > iptables -t nat -A PREROUTING -p tcp -i eth0 -d 192.168.0.1 --dport > 8888 -j dnat > > --to 192.168.0.66:8888 > > > > iptables -A FORWARD -p tcp -i eth0 -d 192.168.0.66 --dport 8888 -j ACCEPT > > > > I'm using coyote linux firewall and figured it to be as easy as forwarding > a > > port but no luck. > > I use something like this: > > iptables -t nat -A PREROUTING -i ${INTERNET} -p tcp --dport 6346 -j > DNAT --to-dest 192.168.0.27 > iptables -A FORWARD -i ${INTERNET} -o ${INSIDE} -p tcp -d > 192.168.0.27 --dport 6346 -j ACCEPT > > Since I'm not also redirecting the port my first line doesn't have the port > on the end of the "to" address (which I guess may be valid anyways) and my > 2nd line specifically has an output "-o" because of multiple interface, but > I don't know if you need it as well. > > Does the internal machine already work with NAT through your router (i.e. > can you web browse with it?). > > Maybe try stripping the port from "to" on your first line and just rely on > the "--dport" in your second line to handle the port? > > Good luck! > > Mike > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 8 15:47:44 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2003 10:47:44 -0500 Subject: linux = impossible? (no offense meant!) In-Reply-To: <20031108151915.10151.qmail-O5WfVfzUwx8@public.gmane.org> References: <20031108151915.10151.qmail@mail.com> Message-ID: <20031108104744.327e1f78.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Sat, 08 Nov 2003 10:19:15 -0500 "ln @post.com" uttered: > Thought you would all get a chuckle (I hope) from this e-mail my > teenage (grade 12) son sent me. Obviously he has a love-hate > relationship with linux. > > But, on the serious side, WHY is it so difficult to install anything > on linux? Can't we make installing software as easy as it is on > Windows? That's a very common first impression with Linux, "why can't I just click on this thing and it works...?" It's really *not* that difficult, it's just a different process than most people are used to, so the perception is that it is more difficult. For example, in Mandrake, I open MCC, software installation, type the name of the software I want installed, it tells me if there are any dependencies that need to be resolved, and once given the "go-ahead", off it goes and gets the software, installs it, configures it if necessary, and it's ready to run. In KDE, in most cases, it even adds convenient menu entry. There are, however, exceptions, and this is one of them. Certainly there is room for improvement, but Linux software installation, even with distros that have excellent package management like Debian or Mandrake, is always going to be different, and for very *good* reasons, in regards to security and stability just to name a couple. Personally, I downloaded the amsn RPM package (latest), and from a root console (something newbs may or may not have to get used to at some point, in most cases, esp with teenagers, it actually makes them feel like a "l33t h4x0r") I typed "urpmi amsn [tab] [enter]" and there I was. I was actually surprised that someone had not added an amsn package to contribs or something... What distribution was this software install happening on anyway? -- JoeHill Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ So little time, so little to do. -- Oscar Levant -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 8 15:57:24 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2003 10:57:24 -0500 Subject: linux = impossible? (no offense meant!) In-Reply-To: <20031108151915.10151.qmail-O5WfVfzUwx8@public.gmane.org> References: <20031108151915.10151.qmail@mail.com> Message-ID: <20031108105724.61b11912.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Sat, 08 Nov 2003 10:19:15 -0500 "ln @post.com" uttered: > That idiot who e-mailed you is retarded but after installing 6 > bizillion other programmes that werent ever mentioned we managed to > get amsn to actually work. it was like some sort of miracle of god > > anyways, linux = impossible Oh, and BTW, please pass on my congratulations and best wishes to your son, he is obviously tenacious, going through what he did to accomplish what seemed impossible, and is evidently much brighter than most, being able to navigate a process that *is* very different from what he is used to and yet get what he wanted done in the end. -- JoeHill Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ There is no cure for birth and death other than to enjoy the interval. -- George Santayana -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lists-Gb8Tj4xcA4YgsBAKwltoeQ at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 8 16:27:29 2003 From: lists-Gb8Tj4xcA4YgsBAKwltoeQ at public.gmane.org (Byron Q. Desnoyers Winmill) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2003 11:27:29 -0500 (EST) Subject: linux = impossible? (no offense meant!) In-Reply-To: <20031108104744.327e1f78.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <20031108151915.10151.qmail@mail.com> <20031108104744.327e1f78.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: There are a couple of things which make installing Linux software so much more difficult: - Dependencies. (This is my gripe.) In order to get application A working, you need B, C, and D. In order to get library C working, you need E. Quite often, this is the fault of the packager and not the developer (ie. there are many packages where a library is optional, but the package maintainer feels that every user wants every feature). Once a package get beyond two levels of dependencies, I start reconsidering its value. - Choice. In order to satisfy need A, you have the choice between A, B, C, ..., J. You don't know what these 10 applications are, because you have never heard of them before. Worse yet, at least five of them are crap (were partially developed, then everybody lost interest) and at least three of them were designed for the esoteric tastes of computer obsessives. Of course, since you don't know anything about any of this software, you are left to discover the bad apples for yourself. Is it possible to fix these problems? Maybe. With Mac OS X, a number of the really important unix applications (eg. teTeX) come bundled with nice installers. The esoteric ones are largely ignored (or may be taken up by fink, I don't know). In that case, you are making life easier because you are eliminating decisions which must be made by the user. It is also interesting to note that most of the nicely packaged software does not have extensive dependencies. It is also interesting to note that Mac OS X takes care or many dependencies -- 10.3 actually has a competent collection of command line utilities. (Examples include: fetchmail, procmail, and stuff developed by Apple for system and disk management. The latter is the most impressive!) But most existing Linux users are going to reject that route at the end of the day because they are accustomed to making those decisions and even experimenting. Anything else would be like having a unix shell, and a straight jacket. There is another problem with unix, which I think is less legitimate: people are scared of the command line and following instructions. Most people simply want to click a button and be done with it. It doesn't matter if typing 'pkg_add some_package' is equivalent, because you actually have to follow an instruction to do this. By following an instruction, I mean that the user is doing something other than running a program in the typical way. (For many years, dragging an icon from a floppy diskette to the hard drive was the acceptable way to install Macintosh programs. Even though it was mindnumbingly simple, installation programs caught on because most minds were too numb to handle copying files.) Trying to tell people that our way is easy would be akin to telling Bush that killing people is generally a bad thing. You can do it, but they won't listen because they are completely irrational. Screaming your head off is going to get yourself nowhere. It is probably better to let people make their own decisions, so that they leave you to make your own decisions. Byron. On Sat, 8 Nov 2003, JoeHill wrote: > It's really *not* that difficult, it's just a different process than > most people are used to, so the perception is that it is more difficult. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 8 16:42:22 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2003 11:42:22 -0500 Subject: linux = impossible? (no offense meant!) In-Reply-To: References: <20031108151915.10151.qmail@mail.com> <20031108104744.327e1f78.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <20031108114222.085b2d17.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Sat, 8 Nov 2003 11:27:29 -0500 (EST) "Byron Q. Desnoyers Winmill" uttered: > Screaming your head off is going to get yourself nowhere. Well, I don't think I did that anywhere in my post...did I? I just wanted to point out that, although there *is* room for improvement in the area of software installation on the Linux-newbie side of things, the overall process is nowhere near as harrowing as many make it out to be. This is where education comes in, and the willingness on the part of people like us to provide patient assistance where it is requested or required. I really believe that, given the assistance and time to learn, most will take to Linux the same way *we* did, enthusiastically and happily, once they see the flexibility, stability, security and sheer variety of GNU software. No worrying about Norton Antivirus updates, no daily visits to Windows update to close the latest trivial exploit, etc. etc. I wouldn't compare frustrated Linux newbs to GWB, that is an egregious insult! -- JoeHill Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Life is the urge to ecstasy. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From gbell72-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 8 17:17:11 2003 From: gbell72-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (gbell72) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2003 12:17:11 -0500 (EST) Subject: iptables In-Reply-To: References: <002901c3a5ef$97f098c0$1b00a8c0@cruncher> Message-ID: Well my friend has finally made another attempt at connecting..still with no luck. My rules now look like this: iptables -t nat -A PREROUTING -i eth1 -p tcp --dport 8888 -j DNAT --to-dest 192.168.0.66 iptables -A FORWARD -i eth1 -o 192.168.0.1 -p tcp -d 192.168.0.66 --dport 8888 -j ACCEPT iptables -I INPUT -p tcp -i eth0 --dport 8888 -j ACCEPT I do have two interfaces in the coyote box eth1 being the external interface and eth0 being internal. At this point I'm not even able to connect to the server running webadmin from my own lan. All machines on my lan connect to the inet without a glitch. The bonus of this firewall is it is made just for that and to drop any incoming conenctions. On Sat, 8 Nov 2003, gbell72 wrote: > ok tht seems to work so far..thanks > > On Sat, 8 Nov 2003, Mike Kirk wrote: > > > > iptables -t nat -A PREROUTING -p tcp -i eth0 -d 192.168.0.1 --dport > > 8888 -j dnat > > > --to 192.168.0.66:8888 > > > > > > iptables -A FORWARD -p tcp -i eth0 -d 192.168.0.66 --dport 8888 -j ACCEPT > > > > > > I'm using coyote linux firewall and figured it to be as easy as forwarding > > a > > > port but no luck. > > > > I use something like this: > > > > iptables -t nat -A PREROUTING -i ${INTERNET} -p tcp --dport 6346 -j > > DNAT --to-dest 192.168.0.27 > > iptables -A FORWARD -i ${INTERNET} -o ${INSIDE} -p tcp -d > > 192.168.0.27 --dport 6346 -j ACCEPT > > > > Since I'm not also redirecting the port my first line doesn't have the port > > on the end of the "to" address (which I guess may be valid anyways) and my > > 2nd line specifically has an output "-o" because of multiple interface, but > > I don't know if you need it as well. > > > > Does the internal machine already work with NAT through your router (i.e. > > can you web browse with it?). > > > > Maybe try stripping the port from "to" on your first line and just rely on > > the "--dport" in your second line to handle the port? > > > > Good luck! > > > > Mike > > > > -- > > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 8 17:58:37 2003 From: davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (David J Patrick) Date: Sat, 08 Nov 2003 12:58:37 -0500 Subject: linux = impossible? (no offense meant!) In-Reply-To: References: <20031108151915.10151.qmail@mail.com> <20031108104744.327e1f78.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <3FAD2ECD.30503@sympatico.ca> Byron Q. Desnoyers Winmill wrote: >There are a couple of things which make installing Linux software so >much more difficult: > > - Dependencies. (This is my gripe.) In order to get application A > working, you need B, C, and D. In order to get library C working, > you need E. Quite often, this is the fault of the packager and > not the developer (ie. there are many packages where a library is > optional, but the package maintainer feels that every user wants > every feature). Once a package get beyond two levels of > dependencies, I start reconsidering its value. > > - Choice. In order to satisfy need A, you have the choice between > A, B, C, ..., J. You don't know what these 10 applications are, > because you have never heard of them before. Worse yet, at least > five of them are crap (were partially developed, then everybody lost > interest) and at least three of them were designed for the esoteric > tastes of computer obsessives. Of course, since you don't know > anything about any of this software, you are left to discover the bad > apples for yourself. > >Is it possible to fix these problems? > Well clearly you have never seen a decent package manager in action. Synaptic, Kpackage, Gnome-apt and others make installing software EASIER than Windoze. You don't even have to download an install program and run it, just pick from the huge lists of available software and click "install". Dependencies are a NON-ISSUE in 90% of cases. This is not always true for more obscure programs, but for the vast majority it's a breeze ! The situation is getting better all the time as package managers learn to use sources designed for other systems. Dependencies area fact of linux life, allowing programmers to "stand on the shoulders of giants". Dependency hell, however is slowly fading to a dim memory. As to users morbid fear of the command line; It's a lot like learning how to maintain your car. Some users (drivers) will only ever do things with a GUI (full service station). Others will want to learn a bit about how their OS (car) works, tweaking settings (changing fluids) optimizing performance (rebuilding a carb & changing the plugs) or recompiling a kernel (engine overhaul) Nowhere does it say that you have to learn this stuff, linux (your car) will run fine from only the GUI (service station) but if something goes a little strange wouldn't you want to be the king of guy (or gal) who has a few tools and knows how the thing works ? Happy travels !, djp -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From gbell72-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 8 18:27:49 2003 From: gbell72-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (gbell72) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2003 13:27:49 -0500 (EST) Subject: iptables Message-ID: I've since changed my rules around slightly and the conenction is making an attempt but it just hangs, after running /etc/rc.d/rc.firewall restart I got Configuring firewall for router... Bad argument `eth1' the rules I made this time are: iptables -A FORWARD -i eth1 -o eth0 -p tcp --dport 8888 -m state --state NEW,ESTABLISHED,RELATED -j ACCEPT iptables -A PREROUTING -t nat -p tcp eth1 --dport 8888 -j DNAT --to-dest 192.168.0.66:8888 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jzygmont-tEQKYFGiemxAYG7eUwYNkWD2FQJk+8+b at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 8 18:44:49 2003 From: jzygmont-tEQKYFGiemxAYG7eUwYNkWD2FQJk+8+b at public.gmane.org (Justin Zygmont) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2003 13:44:49 -0500 (EST) Subject: Word .DOC viewer for Mozilla In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Interesting, I always knew MS went to great lengths to do things like this. So this means that opening a word 2000 .doc file won't show up properly with say word 97? then why can't a recent version of OO read a word 2000 .doc file? On Sat, 8 Nov 2003, Peter L. Peres wrote: > > On Fri, 7 Nov 2003, Justin Zygmont wrote: > > > there must be in the application helper section, I guess just specify the > > command line like the others are setup. I was also wondering the best way > > to handle .doc files in linux, openoffice, isn't 100%. > > OO is 100% the document generators are a moving target and make it > impossible for OO to be 100% for new encodings. Try to open a recent .doc > file with an older version of word and awe and wonder at the results. > > Peter > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From kcozens-qazKcTl6WRFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 8 19:03:08 2003 From: kcozens-qazKcTl6WRFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Kevin Cozens) Date: Sat, 08 Nov 2003 14:03:08 -0500 Subject: iptables In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20031108140216.01fe0d20@mail.interlog.com> At 01:27 PM 11/08/2003 -0500, gbell72 wrote: >Bad argument `eth1' [snip] >iptables -A FORWARD -i eth1 -o eth0 -p tcp --dport 8888 -m state --state >NEW,ESTABLISHED,RELATED -j ACCEPT > >iptables -A PREROUTING -t nat -p tcp eth1 --dport 8888 -j DNAT --to-dest >192.168.0.66:8888 Should that second line have '-i' before eth1? Cheers! Kevin. (http://www.interlog.com/~kcozens/) Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172 |"What are we going to do today, Borg?" E-mail:kcozens at interlog dot com|"Same thing we always do, Pinkutus: Packet:ve3syb at ve3yra.#con.on.ca.na| Try to assimilate the world!" #include | -Pinkutus & the Borg -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 8 19:09:26 2003 From: cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org (cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org) Date: Sat, 08 Nov 2003 14:09:26 -0500 Subject: Time for a new Linux In-Reply-To: Message from CLIFFORD ILKAY of "Fri, 07 Nov 2003 21:31:42 EST." <5.2.0.9.0.20031107212840.09aa9008-bi+AKbBUZKZeoWH0uzbU5w@public.gmane.org> References: <001701c3a429$47723fb0$0301a8c0@amazon> <001701c3a429$47723fb0$0301a8c0@amazon> <5.2.0.9.0.20031107212840.09aa9008@localhost> Message-ID: <20031108190927.331FE44ED@cbbrowne.com> > I happen to like run levels but that is because I cut my Unix teeth on > Interactive Unix, not because of any strong religious beliefs about it. > What is better about BSD style init? It does feel a bit more "unixy" by virtue of running as scripts; the "SysV way" is vaguely more "mainframe-like." That being said, I prefer the present use of the SysV approach. Mind you, the notion of "runlevels" is a lot less useful than it used to be. It's sensible enough to have a "single user mode" for really oddball setup issues, but the differences between levels 2, 3, 4, and 5 are pretty irrelevant save on big multiuser boxes, and in those cases, you don't change runlevels much because you'd get tarred and feathered by the users. What I would like to see is something more along the lines of a "makefile-based Init," where you define what services depend on what other services, and can basically run "make" to get everything started up in suitable order. The cool "next step" would be to run "make -j 20" which (with GNU Make) would spawn as many as 20 services concurrently, which should speed up system startup a fair bit over the present approach which serializes the startup. That would be more like something of a conglomeration of BSD and SysV init approaches... -- If this was helpful, rate me http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/emacs.html "Waving away a cloud of smoke, I look up, and am blinded by a bright, white light. It's God. No, not Richard Stallman, or Linus Torvalds, but God. In a booming voice, He says: "THIS IS A SIGN. USE LINUX, THE FREE Unix SYSTEM FOR THE 386." -- Matt Welsh -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From blanco-S8qYAnHmZTt34ZA5RureAJ4VBq8PJc8F at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 8 19:13:26 2003 From: blanco-S8qYAnHmZTt34ZA5RureAJ4VBq8PJc8F at public.gmane.org (Max Blanco) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2003 14:13:26 -0500 (EST) Subject: dos to unix CR/LF conversion? Message-ID: Hi all, I can't locate a tool using "man" to translate from dos ^m to unix ^m^r (or whatever) on the command line. Anyone know if such a utility exists? If so, how do I invoke it? I'm not interested in reinventing any wheels. thanks, max. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From gbell72-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 8 19:15:02 2003 From: gbell72-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (gbell72) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2003 14:15:02 -0500 (EST) Subject: iptables In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20031108140216.01fe0d20-Nf8GSVjHSL5zk1aGpazrEgC/G2K4zDHf@public.gmane.org> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20031108140216.01fe0d20@mail.interlog.com> Message-ID: Umm yes the -i was needed..and it works for everyone on my internal lan. I just need to figure out how to let the person thats on the outside in. On Sat, 8 Nov 2003, Kevin Cozens wrote: > At 01:27 PM 11/08/2003 -0500, gbell72 wrote: > >Bad argument `eth1' > [snip] > >iptables -A FORWARD -i eth1 -o eth0 -p tcp --dport 8888 -m state --state > >NEW,ESTABLISHED,RELATED -j ACCEPT > > > >iptables -A PREROUTING -t nat -p tcp eth1 --dport 8888 -j DNAT --to-dest > >192.168.0.66:8888 > > Should that second line have '-i' before eth1? > > > Cheers! > > Kevin. (http://www.interlog.com/~kcozens/) > > Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172 |"What are we going to do today, Borg?" > E-mail:kcozens at interlog dot com|"Same thing we always do, Pinkutus: > Packet:ve3syb at ve3yra.#con.on.ca.na| Try to assimilate the world!" > #include | -Pinkutus & the Borg > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 8 19:16:06 2003 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Sat, 08 Nov 2003 14:16:06 -0500 Subject: dos to unix CR/LF conversion? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3FAD40F6.1010108@alteeve.com> If it is only a few number of files, simply opening them in 'pico' (a command line text editor installed with 'pine') and then immidiately resave the file. Done. :) There is an app for doing a lot of files but I can't think of it off the top of my head. Madison Max Blanco wrote: > Hi all, > > I can't locate a tool using "man" to translate from dos ^m to unix ^m^r > (or whatever) on the command line. > > Anyone know if such a utility exists? If so, how do I invoke it? > > I'm not interested in reinventing any wheels. > > thanks, > max. > > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jbh-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 8 19:29:44 2003 From: jbh-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jeremy Handcock) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2003 14:29:44 -0500 Subject: dos to unix CR/LF conversion? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20031108192944.GA578@toastandjams.org> The dos2unix utility should do the trick. Jeremy On Sat, Nov 08, 2003 at 02:13:26PM -0500, Max Blanco wrote: > > Hi all, > > I can't locate a tool using "man" to translate from dos ^m to unix ^m^r > (or whatever) on the command line. > > Anyone know if such a utility exists? If so, how do I invoke it? > > I'm not interested in reinventing any wheels. > > thanks, > max. > > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 8 19:30:07 2003 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Sat, 08 Nov 2003 14:30:07 -0500 Subject: dos to unix CR/LF conversion? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3FAD443F.3050905@rogers.com> Max Blanco wrote: > Hi all, > > I can't locate a tool using "man" to translate from dos ^m to unix ^m^r > (or whatever) on the command line. > > Anyone know if such a utility exists? If so, how do I invoke it? > > I'm not interested in reinventing any wheels. There is a utility called dos2unix & the reverse. If it's not installed in your distro, you can download it from somewhere. Use google to search on dos2unix -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jzygmont-tEQKYFGiemxAYG7eUwYNkWD2FQJk+8+b at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 8 19:45:50 2003 From: jzygmont-tEQKYFGiemxAYG7eUwYNkWD2FQJk+8+b at public.gmane.org (Justin Zygmont) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2003 14:45:50 -0500 (EST) Subject: dos to unix CR/LF conversion? In-Reply-To: <3FAD40F6.1010108-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <3FAD40F6.1010108@alteeve.com> Message-ID: isn't there a dos2unix and unix2dos command? On Sat, 8 Nov 2003, Madison Kelly wrote: > If it is only a few number of files, simply opening them in 'pico' (a > command line text editor installed with 'pine') and then immidiately > resave the file. Done. :) > > There is an app for doing a lot of files but I can't think of it off the > top of my head. > > Madison > > Max Blanco wrote: > > Hi all, > > > > I can't locate a tool using "man" to translate from dos ^m to unix ^m^r > > (or whatever) on the command line. > > > > Anyone know if such a utility exists? If so, how do I invoke it? > > > > I'm not interested in reinventing any wheels. > > > > thanks, > > max. > > > > > > -- > > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > > > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From gbell72-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 8 19:44:36 2003 From: gbell72-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (gbell72) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2003 14:44:36 -0500 (EST) Subject: iptables In-Reply-To: References: <5.2.1.1.0.20031108140216.01fe0d20@mail.interlog.com> Message-ID: Hmm..well it seems that my server is trying to allow outside access..but I've had 3 ppl test it and they are receiving a 504 gateway error..is it possible I have eth0 and eth1 in the wrong position of the rules? On Sat, 8 Nov 2003, gbell72 wrote: > Umm yes the -i was needed..and it works for everyone on my internal lan. I > just need to figure out how to let the person thats on the outside in. > > On Sat, 8 Nov 2003, Kevin Cozens wrote: > > > At 01:27 PM 11/08/2003 -0500, gbell72 wrote: > > >Bad argument `eth1' > > [snip] > > >iptables -A FORWARD -i eth1 -o eth0 -p tcp --dport 8888 -m state --state > > >NEW,ESTABLISHED,RELATED -j ACCEPT > > > > > >iptables -A PREROUTING -t nat -p tcp eth1 --dport 8888 -j DNAT --to-dest > > >192.168.0.66:8888 > > > > Should that second line have '-i' before eth1? > > > > > > Cheers! > > > > Kevin. (http://www.interlog.com/~kcozens/) > > > > Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172 |"What are we going to do today, Borg?" > > E-mail:kcozens at interlog dot com|"Same thing we always do, Pinkutus: > > Packet:ve3syb at ve3yra.#con.on.ca.na| Try to assimilate the world!" > > #include | -Pinkutus & the Borg > > > > -- > > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From kcozens-qazKcTl6WRFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 8 19:43:33 2003 From: kcozens-qazKcTl6WRFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Kevin Cozens) Date: Sat, 08 Nov 2003 14:43:33 -0500 Subject: iptables In-Reply-To: References: <5.2.1.1.0.20031108140216.01fe0d20@mail.interlog.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20031108140216.01fe0d20@mail.interlog.com> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20031108144212.01fe49c0@mail.interlog.com> At 02:15 PM 11/08/2003 -0500, you wrote: >Umm yes the -i was needed..and it works for everyone on my internal lan. I >just need to figure out how to let the person thats on the outside in. Have you looked at the firewall log files to see what packets from your outside user(s) are being ignored or rejected? Cheers! Kevin. (http://www.interlog.com/~kcozens/) Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172 |"What are we going to do today, Borg?" E-mail:kcozens at interlog dot com|"Same thing we always do, Pinkutus: Packet:ve3syb at ve3yra.#con.on.ca.na| Try to assimilate the world!" #include | -Pinkutus & the Borg -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From kcozens-qazKcTl6WRFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 8 19:46:46 2003 From: kcozens-qazKcTl6WRFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Kevin Cozens) Date: Sat, 08 Nov 2003 14:46:46 -0500 Subject: dos to unix CR/LF conversion? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20031108144435.01fd3500@mail.interlog.com> At 02:13 PM 11/08/2003 -0500, max wrote: >I can't locate a tool using "man" to translate from dos ^m to unix ^m^r >(or whatever) on the command line. Its the other way round. Unix uses ^r whereas DOS uses ^m^r. You can use dos2unix or you can use the 'tr' command. Cheers! Kevin. (http://www.interlog.com/~kcozens/) Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172 |"What are we going to do today, Borg?" E-mail:kcozens at interlog dot com|"Same thing we always do, Pinkutus: Packet:ve3syb at ve3yra.#con.on.ca.na| Try to assimilate the world!" #include | -Pinkutus & the Borg -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From blanco-S8qYAnHmZTt34ZA5RureAJ4VBq8PJc8F at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 8 19:55:47 2003 From: blanco-S8qYAnHmZTt34ZA5RureAJ4VBq8PJc8F at public.gmane.org (Max Blanco) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2003 14:55:47 -0500 (EST) Subject: dos to unix CR/LF conversion? In-Reply-To: <3FAD443F.3050905-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <3FAD443F.3050905@rogers.com> Message-ID: Thanks to all who answered. I did as James suggested and found the app dos2unix at . Unfortunately, at first glance, it seems to delete ^m but doesn't seem to insert ^r? That's what happened to my text file. That's just a minor tweak to the source code, though. cheers, max. On Sat, 8 Nov 2003, James Knott wrote: > Max Blanco wrote: > > Hi all, > > > > I can't locate a tool using "man" to translate from dos ^m to unix ^m^r > > (or whatever) on the command line. > > > > Anyone know if such a utility exists? If so, how do I invoke it? > > > > I'm not interested in reinventing any wheels. > > There is a utility called dos2unix & the reverse. If it's not installed > in your distro, you can download it from somewhere. Use google to > search on dos2unix > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From kcozens-qazKcTl6WRFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 8 20:04:05 2003 From: kcozens-qazKcTl6WRFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Kevin Cozens) Date: Sat, 08 Nov 2003 15:04:05 -0500 Subject: iptables In-Reply-To: References: <5.2.1.1.0.20031108140216.01fe0d20@mail.interlog.com> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20031108150320.01fdb7f0@mail.interlog.com> At 02:44 PM 11/08/2003 -0500, you wrote: >Hmm..well it seems that my server is trying to allow outside access..but I've >had 3 ppl test it and they are receiving a 504 gateway error..is it possible I >have eth0 and eth1 in the wrong position of the rules? I suppose it is possible. Which interface connects to your router and which is used for the Internal LAN? Cheers! Kevin. (http://www.interlog.com/~kcozens/) Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172 |"What are we going to do today, Borg?" E-mail:kcozens at interlog dot com|"Same thing we always do, Pinkutus: Packet:ve3syb at ve3yra.#con.on.ca.na| Try to assimilate the world!" #include | -Pinkutus & the Borg -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 8 20:04:08 2003 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Sat, 08 Nov 2003 15:04:08 -0500 Subject: dos to unix CR/LF conversion? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3FAD4C38.4070707@rogers.com> There shouldn't be a ^r. The dos chars are ^l & ^m, with Unix using only ^l. Max Blanco wrote: > Thanks to all who answered. > I did as James suggested and found the app dos2unix at > . > Unfortunately, at first glance, it seems to delete ^m but doesn't seem to > insert ^r? That's what happened to my text file. That's just a minor > tweak to the source code, though. > > cheers, > max. > > On Sat, 8 Nov 2003, James Knott wrote: > > >>Max Blanco wrote: >> >>>Hi all, >>> >>>I can't locate a tool using "man" to translate from dos ^m to unix ^m^r >>>(or whatever) on the command line. >>> >>>Anyone know if such a utility exists? If so, how do I invoke it? >>> >>>I'm not interested in reinventing any wheels. >> >>There is a utility called dos2unix & the reverse. If it's not installed >>in your distro, you can download it from somewhere. Use google to >>search on dos2unix >> > > > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From zhunt-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 8 20:06:26 2003 From: zhunt-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (Zoltan/ZEE4) Date: 08 Nov 2003 15:06:26 -0500 Subject: Choosing a distro, PPC style ... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1068321985.2085.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> I'm not sure if this is what your looking for but... There aren't a lot of PPC motherboards around that don't come with an Apple case, but you might want to look into is the Texon, which is sold here under the AmigaOne name. Basically it's a ATX board with the option of a mounted G3 or a socketed G3 or G4 and come with all the regular features (USB1, networking, AGP, PCI, etc.). They sell for about $900 (Can.) for the base model last time I checked. There's a cheeper one due out early next year with a mini-ATX form size. It will likely have a ATI card built-in along with USB2 and Firewire built-in. These boards have been tested with Debian and SuSE amoung others. personally I've mostly used RedHat, so I'm waiting for YellowDog to be ported myself, but might well go for SuSE. see: http://amigaone-linux.sourceforge.net/ or do a search for "AmigaOne Linux" on google, there's been a lot written about these boards. Zoltan www.zee4.com On Fri, 2003-11-07 at 23:17, Byron Q. Desnoyers Winmill wrote: > FWIW, this comments reflect my *opinions*. I'm hoping to find somebody > with sufficiently similar opinions to suggest a distribution which I may > like. > > I have been using Debian on a PPC for three years now, and while it has > its good points, I would like to switch away from it. > > The first qualification is obvious: it must be available for the PPC. > This is a consumer grade machine (ie. Apple), not a fancy server (eg. > IBM), nor an embedded thingy. > > A default install must be reasonably light weight. I abhor desktop > managers, have been known to use X11 without a window manager, and have > a nasty tendancy to use the console. > > (No Yellow Dog, SuSE?) > > A default install should contain basic programming tools: C is not my > friend, but I am stuck using it; gdb is my friend, because I'm stuck > using C. I don't need anything more sophisticated than that. Text > processors (notably TeX) must also be available as a package. > > The package management system myst be sane! I'm tired of hunting down > separate program, documentation, and development packages. Maintainers > should also keep dependencies to a minimum. I have never understood the > collection of tools shipped with Debian, and it was difficult to find > stuff in the one tool which I am familiar with (dpkg, dselect). FWIW, I > have found NetBSD's ports collection to be sane, particularly since it > was easy to download binary packages. > > (No Debian, Gentoo?) > > I'm not partial to *BSD or Linux, but I have had trouble with NetBSD in > the past -- with respect to supported hardware. (eg. upgrade a kernel, > and the hard drive isn't detected; video is OpenFirmware only, and > horrendously slow.) > > (No NetBSD?) > > Any suggestions, or is this a hopeless cause? > > Thank-you, > Byron. > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From gbell72-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 8 20:03:05 2003 From: gbell72-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (gbell72) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2003 15:03:05 -0500 (EST) Subject: iptables In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20031108150320.01fdb7f0-Nf8GSVjHSL5zk1aGpazrEgC/G2K4zDHf@public.gmane.org> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20031108140216.01fe0d20@mail.interlog.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20031108150320.01fdb7f0@mail.interlog.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 8 Nov 2003, Kevin Cozens wrote: > At 02:44 PM 11/08/2003 -0500, you wrote: > >Hmm..well it seems that my server is trying to allow outside access..but I've > >had 3 ppl test it and they are receiving a 504 gateway error..is it possible I > >have eth0 and eth1 in the wrong position of the rules? > > I suppose it is possible. Which interface connects to your router and which > is used for the Internal LAN? > > eth1 connects to the cable modem eth0 connects to hub Gardner > Cheers! > > Kevin. (http://www.interlog.com/~kcozens/) > > Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172 |"What are we going to do today, Borg?" > E-mail:kcozens at interlog dot com|"Same thing we always do, Pinkutus: > Packet:ve3syb at ve3yra.#con.on.ca.na| Try to assimilate the world!" > #include | -Pinkutus & the Borg > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From kcozens-qazKcTl6WRFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 8 20:10:34 2003 From: kcozens-qazKcTl6WRFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Kevin Cozens) Date: Sat, 08 Nov 2003 15:10:34 -0500 Subject: dos to unix CR/LF conversion? In-Reply-To: References: <3FAD443F.3050905@rogers.com> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20031108150814.01fcaec0@mail.interlog.com> At 02:55 PM 11/08/2003 -0500, max wrote: >Unfortunately, at first glance, it seems to delete ^m but doesn't seem to >insert ^r? That's what happened to my text file. That's just a minor >tweak to the source code, though. Conversion of a text file from DOS to *nix is just a matter of deleting ^m. If your text file has lines that end in ^m only then it is not a DOS text file but possibly one from a Mac or other OS. This is where the 'tr' command can be useful. It would allow you to change all ^m to ^r. Cheers! Kevin. (http://www.interlog.com/~kcozens/) Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172 |"What are we going to do today, Borg?" E-mail:kcozens at interlog dot com|"Same thing we always do, Pinkutus: Packet:ve3syb at ve3yra.#con.on.ca.na| Try to assimilate the world!" #include | -Pinkutus & the Borg -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From marc-bbkyySd1vPWsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 8 20:25:28 2003 From: marc-bbkyySd1vPWsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Marc Lijour (Professeur d'Informatique)) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2003 15:25:28 -0500 Subject: dos to unix CR/LF conversion? In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20031108150814.01fcaec0-Nf8GSVjHSL5zk1aGpazrEgC/G2K4zDHf@public.gmane.org> References: <3FAD443F.3050905@rogers.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20031108150814.01fcaec0@mail.interlog.com> Message-ID: <200311081525.28437.marc@lijour.net> Le 8 Novembre 2003 15:10, Kevin Cozens a ?crit : > At 02:55 PM 11/08/2003 -0500, max wrote: > >Unfortunately, at first glance, it seems to delete ^m but doesn't seem to > >insert ^r? That's what happened to my text file. That's just a minor > >tweak to the source code, though. > > Conversion of a text file from DOS to *nix is just a matter of deleting ^m. > If your text file has lines that end in ^m only then it is not a DOS text > file but possibly one from a Mac or other OS. This is where the 'tr' > command can be useful. It would allow you to change all ^m to ^r. > 2 utilities that are handy: dos2unix unix2dos > Cheers! > > Kevin. (http://www.interlog.com/~kcozens/) > > Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172 |"What are we going to do today, Borg?" > E-mail:kcozens at interlog dot com|"Same thing we always do, Pinkutus: > Packet:ve3syb at ve3yra.#con.on.ca.na| Try to assimilate the world!" > #include | -Pinkutus & the Borg > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From blanco-S8qYAnHmZTt34ZA5RureAJ4VBq8PJc8F at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 8 20:51:23 2003 From: blanco-S8qYAnHmZTt34ZA5RureAJ4VBq8PJc8F at public.gmane.org (Max Blanco) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2003 15:51:23 -0500 (EST) Subject: dos to unix CR/LF conversion? In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20031108150814.01fcaec0-Nf8GSVjHSL5zk1aGpazrEgC/G2K4zDHf@public.gmane.org> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20031108150814.01fcaec0@mail.interlog.com> Message-ID: Kevin/All, you were right. My mac/ie5 converted linefeeds to ^m, instead of \r. I can't see straight anymore between '\n', '\r', "^M", "^L", C, perl, tr, unix, dos, mac, dog, cat. Arrgh. If any of you desire to get my hack/fix of the dos2unix source code, email me offlist. If any of you would like to post a "tr" shell script that I can put into my /usr/local/bin directory, I'd be more than willing to copy it. cheers, max. On Sat, 8 Nov 2003, Kevin Cozens wrote: > At 02:55 PM 11/08/2003 -0500, max wrote: > >Unfortunately, at first glance, it seems to delete ^m but doesn't seem to > >insert ^r? That's what happened to my text file. That's just a minor > >tweak to the source code, though. > > Conversion of a text file from DOS to *nix is just a matter of deleting ^m. > If your text file has lines that end in ^m only then it is not a DOS text > file but possibly one from a Mac or other OS. This is where the 'tr' > command can be useful. It would allow you to change all ^m to ^r. > > > Cheers! > > Kevin. (http://www.interlog.com/~kcozens/) > > Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172 |"What are we going to do today, Borg?" > E-mail:kcozens at interlog dot com|"Same thing we always do, Pinkutus: > Packet:ve3syb at ve3yra.#con.on.ca.na| Try to assimilate the world!" > #include | -Pinkutus & the Borg > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From kcozens-qazKcTl6WRFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 8 20:53:01 2003 From: kcozens-qazKcTl6WRFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Kevin Cozens) Date: Sat, 08 Nov 2003 15:53:01 -0500 Subject: iptables In-Reply-To: References: <5.2.1.1.0.20031108150320.01fdb7f0@mail.interlog.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20031108140216.01fe0d20@mail.interlog.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20031108150320.01fdb7f0@mail.interlog.com> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20031108153259.01fe4ec0@mail.interlog.com> At 03:03 PM 11/08/2003 -0500, you wrote: > > I suppose it is possible. Which interface connects to your router and which > > is used for the Internal LAN? > > > > eth1 connects to the cable modem eth0 connects to hub I haven't had to deal with relaying traffic between interfaces (yet). The thought that occurs to me is that you would need to have rules to allow eth1 to accept the incoming traffic from the remote user. A forwarding rule to reroute the external traffic to your internal LAN on eth0, and finally, a rule on eth0 to allow traffic coming from interface eth1 which contains an origin address of the external user. It looks like you have the first two parts. You may just be missing the last step. Cheers! Kevin. (http://www.interlog.com/~kcozens/) Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172 |"What are we going to do today, Borg?" E-mail:kcozens at interlog dot com|"Same thing we always do, Pinkutus: Packet:ve3syb at ve3yra.#con.on.ca.na| Try to assimilate the world!" #include | -Pinkutus & the Borg -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From kcozens-qazKcTl6WRFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 8 21:01:10 2003 From: kcozens-qazKcTl6WRFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Kevin Cozens) Date: Sat, 08 Nov 2003 16:01:10 -0500 Subject: dos to unix CR/LF conversion? In-Reply-To: References: <5.2.1.1.0.20031108150814.01fcaec0@mail.interlog.com> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20031108155339.01fbc2f0@mail.interlog.com> At 03:51 PM 11/08/2003 -0500, max wrote: >you were right. My mac/ie5 converted linefeeds to ^m, instead of \r. >I can't see straight anymore between '\n', '\r', "^M", "^L", C, perl, tr, >unix, dos, mac, dog, cat. Arrgh. The simples way to make the changes you need is via the tr command. Your starting file has carriage returns (aka, ^M, 0x0D, or \015) instead of line feeds (aka, ^J, 0x0A, or \012). To make the changes you need, use the tr command as follows: tr '\015' '\012' < file-in > file-out Cheers! Kevin. (http://www.interlog.com/~kcozens/) Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172 |"What are we going to do today, Borg?" E-mail:kcozens at interlog dot com|"Same thing we always do, Pinkutus: Packet:ve3syb at ve3yra.#con.on.ca.na| Try to assimilate the world!" #include | -Pinkutus & the Borg -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lists-Gb8Tj4xcA4YgsBAKwltoeQ at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 8 21:31:50 2003 From: lists-Gb8Tj4xcA4YgsBAKwltoeQ at public.gmane.org (Byron Desnoyers Winmill) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2003 16:31:50 -0500 Subject: linux = impossible? (no offense meant!) In-Reply-To: <3FAD2ECD.30503-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <20031108151915.10151.qmail@mail.com> <20031108104744.327e1f78.joehill@sympatico.ca> <3FAD2ECD.30503@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <20031108213150.GA47101@pluto.bsdwebhosting.net> On Sat, Nov 08, 2003 at 12:58:37PM -0500, David J Patrick wrote: > Well clearly you have never seen a decent package manager in action. It doesn't matter if the best package manager in the world is easier to use than Windows installation programs. It simply won't fly if it doesn't fit people perceptions of how things should be done. These days, people think you obtain a piece of software (either in a store or by downloading it) and run an installer. That will never work under Linux because of dependencies. > Dependencies area fact of linux life, allowing programmers to "stand > on the shoulders of giants". I won't argue with the bit about giants: gtk+, motif, and qt are pretty big libraries after all. ;-) I think that I have all of them installed too! > Dependency hell, however is slowly fading to a dim memory. Dependency hell won't fade away until developers decide to toss away this notion that two, three, four, etc. levels of dependencies are acceptable. If anything, the situation is getting worse ... and I really wish that they would go back to static linking. (How many libraries are used by one or two applications per system?) > Some users (drivers) will only ever do things with a GUI (full service > station). Baloney. A GUI need be no more or no less powerful than the command line. If a difference does exist in functionality (and I certainly think there is), it is only because most GUIs were designed with less functionality to make them easier to use. Similarly, you can design character based environments which are easier to use than GUIs. (The best examples are probably library catalogues, where extensive usability studies were done in the past. After seeing many GUI and web based implementations, I doubt that the same is being done today.) Byron. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From gbell72-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 8 21:39:32 2003 From: gbell72-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (gbell72) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2003 16:39:32 -0500 (EST) Subject: iptables In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20031108153259.01fe4ec0-Nf8GSVjHSL5zk1aGpazrEgC/G2K4zDHf@public.gmane.org> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20031108150320.01fdb7f0@mail.interlog.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20031108140216.01fe0d20@mail.interlog.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20031108150320.01fdb7f0@mail.interlog.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20031108153259.01fe4ec0@mail.interlog.com> Message-ID: It does seem so..I've since changed my rules again slightly to look like so..when I was using firestarter I only needed 2 rules to make this work, my present rules look like so: iptables -A FORWARD -i eth1 -o eth0 -p tcp --dport 8888 -m state --state NEW,ESTABLISHED,RELATED -j ACCEPT iptables -t nat -I PREROUTING -i eth1 -p tcp --dport 8888 -j DNAT --to-dest 192.168.0.66:8888 which still allows anyone on lan access, but not outside. I'm new at customizing my own rules so thing are still kinda cryptic to me On Sat, 8 Nov 2003, Kevin Cozens wrote: > At 03:03 PM 11/08/2003 -0500, you wrote: > > > I suppose it is possible. Which interface connects to your router and which > > > is used for the Internal LAN? > > > > > > eth1 connects to the cable modem eth0 connects to hub > > I haven't had to deal with relaying traffic between interfaces (yet). The > thought that occurs to me is that you would need to have rules to allow > eth1 to accept the incoming traffic from the remote user. A forwarding rule > to reroute the external traffic to your internal LAN on eth0, and finally, > a rule on eth0 to allow traffic coming from interface eth1 which contains > an origin address of the external user. It looks like you have the first > two parts. You may just be missing the last step. > > > Cheers! > > Kevin. (http://www.interlog.com/~kcozens/) > > Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172 |"What are we going to do today, Borg?" > E-mail:kcozens at interlog dot com|"Same thing we always do, Pinkutus: > Packet:ve3syb at ve3yra.#con.on.ca.na| Try to assimilate the world!" > #include | -Pinkutus & the Borg > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 8 21:44:21 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2003 16:44:21 -0500 Subject: best analysis of the SCO battle yet In-Reply-To: <20031108125957.1358342AA9-pwyU32sTfCqP7boJH+kiu+TW4wlIGRCZ@public.gmane.org> References: <20031108125957.1358342AA9@outbox.allstream.net> Message-ID: <20031108164421.5bf87057.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Sat, 8 Nov 2003 08:07:48 -0500 bob findlay uttered: > > http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20031106164630915 This one ain't *meant* to be funny, but it had me rolling: "SCO Group has revealed it plans migration options extending the intellectual property program launched earlier this year. Outlined in SCO's latest 8K Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC) filing, no further details were given. However, a company spokesperson told ComputerWire SCO would probably provide customers with financial incentives and discounts to migrate to SCO Unix, other vendors' Unix, and what he referred to as "other proprietary operating systems" but probably Windows. "We are offering a migration path to other operating systems that have a stronger IP basis than Linux," the spokesperson said. Incentives will be offered "in the coming months."" Link: http://www.cbronline.com/latestnews/3752ef9c5fdf36b480256dd7001e4767 Of course, if one honestly *believes* in a certain version of reality, or wishes to appear as if they do, no matter the utter stupidity, they will come out with boneheaded plans like this one...with a straight face. -- JoeHill Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ The best you get is an even break. -- Franklin Adams -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From linuxnewbie-pCGr9Sw2R8Y at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 8 22:24:00 2003 From: linuxnewbie-pCGr9Sw2R8Y at public.gmane.org (ln @post.com) Date: Sat, 08 Nov 2003 17:24:00 -0500 Subject: linux = impossible? (no offense meant!) Message-ID: <20031108222400.11157.qmail@mail.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: JoeHill Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2003 10:47:44 -0500 To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Subject: Re: [TLUG]: linux = impossible? (no offense meant!) On Sat, 08 Nov 2003 10:19:15 -0500 "ln @post.com" uttered: > Thought you would all get a chuckle (I hope) from this e-mail my > teenage (grade 12) son sent me. Obviously he has a love-hate > relationship with linux. > > But, on the serious side, WHY is it so difficult to install anything > on linux? Can't we make installing software as easy as it is on > Windows? That's a very common first impression with Linux, "why can't I just click on this thing and it works...?" It's really *not* that difficult, it's just a different process than most people are used to, so the perception is that it is more difficult... Re: ...there is room for improvement, but Linux software Re: installation, even with distros that have excellent package management Re: like Debian or Mandrake, is always going to be different, and for very Re: *good* reasons, in regards to security and stability just to name a Re: couple. Personally, I downloaded the amsn RPM package (latest), and Re: from a root console (something newbs may or may not have to get used to Re: at some point, in most cases, esp with teenagers, it actually makes them Re: feel like a "l33t h4x0r") I typed "urpmi amsn [tab] [enter]" and there I Re: was. I was actually surprised that someone had not added an amsn package Re: to contribs or something... Re: Re: What distribution was this software install happening on anyway? Joe - My son installed it on a Red Hat 8 box. Btb, I'll also pass your kind words along to him -Peter Re: Re: -- Re: JoeHill Re: Registered Linux user #282046 Re: Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org Re: +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Re: So little time, so little to do. Re: -- Oscar Levant Re: -- Re: The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org Re: TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns Re: How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- __________________________________________________________ Sign-up for your own personalized E-mail at Mail.com http://www.mail.com/?sr=signup Search Smarter - get the new eXact Search Bar for free! http://www.exactsearchbar.com/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From peter.king-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 8 22:29:36 2003 From: peter.king-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Peter King) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2003 17:29:36 -0500 Subject: dos to unix CR/LF conversion? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20031108222936.GA8763@socrates> On Sat, Nov 08, 2003 at 02:13:26PM -0500, Max Blanco wrote: > I can't locate a tool using "man" to translate from dos ^m to unix ^m^r > (or whatever) on the command line. apt-get install flip! You *are* using Debian, aren't you? ;-) flip -u : translates DOS into UNIX format flip -d : translates UNIX into DOS format -- Peter King peter.king-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Philosophy Department University of Toronto (416)-978-3788 ofc Toronto, ON M5S 1A1 (416)-978-8703 fax CANADA All your base are belong to us... -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 8 22:45:41 2003 From: henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org (Henry Spencer) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2003 17:45:41 -0500 (EST) Subject: dos to unix CR/LF conversion? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 8 Nov 2003, Max Blanco wrote: > you were right. My mac/ie5 converted linefeeds to ^m, instead of \r. > I can't see straight anymore between '\n', '\r', "^M", "^L", C, perl, tr, > unix, dos, mac, dog, cat. Arrgh. Let's get this one sorted out once and for all... Unix end-of-line is ASCII LF = linefeed = newline = \n = \012 = ^J. (This actually follows the ASCII standard, which says that if one character is used for newline, it shall be LF.) Mac end-of-line is ASCII CR = carriage return = \r = \015 = ^M. (This is just wrong, a stupid violation of standards, but it's a bit late to fix Apple's botch.) DOS/Windows end-of-line is ASCII CR followed by ASCII LF. (This also follows the ASCII standard, which by default separates CR "go back to left margin" from LF "go down to next line". However, with two characters, you have all sorts of fun questions about what happens if they show up in the wrong order, or if only one of them shows up. Unix made the right choice by using a single character.) ^L is formfeed, and ^R is an obscure device-control character, and neither of those is involved at all. Converting Unix to Mac or vice-versa is easy on most modern systems: tr '\n' '\r' output # Unix to Mac tr '\r' '\n' output # Mac to Unix (On old systems, it may be necessary to spell \n as \012 and \r as \015.) This just transforms one character into the other. Converting DOS to Unix is likewise easy: tr -d '\r' output # DOS to Unix This deletes the silly CRs, leaving the LFs which are already in the right places. Going *to* DOS is a little harder, because it requires inserting the missing characters, which "tr" can't do. You could do it with "sed", but that's a little awkward because of the lack of good escape conventions for the unprintable characters. So let's use awk instead: awk '{ print $0 "\r" }' output # Unix to DOS Henry Spencer henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 8 22:44:45 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2003 17:44:45 -0500 Subject: linux = impossible? (no offense meant!) In-Reply-To: <20031108222400.11157.qmail-O5WfVfzUwx8@public.gmane.org> References: <20031108222400.11157.qmail@mail.com> Message-ID: <20031108174445.6bac467e.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Sat, 08 Nov 2003 17:24:00 -0500 "ln @post.com" uttered: > Joe - My son installed it on a Red Hat 8 box. Tell 'im Mandrake would be a much easier go, the package management is sooooo much easier to deal with, and he can e-mail me any time he wants for help. I *love* helpin' newbs, as I see it as one less person enriching that bad, evil MS man ;-) -- JoeHill Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Life is like a sewer. What you get out of it depends on what you put into it. -- Tom Lehrer -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jemcinto-cpI+UMyWUv+w5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 8 18:03:53 2003 From: jemcinto-cpI+UMyWUv+w5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org (James McIntosh) Date: Sat, 08 Nov 2003 18:03:53 Subject: Word .DOC viewer for Mozilla In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20031108180353.26078e4e@mail.look.ca> At 01:44 PM 11/8/03 -0500, Justin Zygmont wrote: >So this means that opening a word 2000 .doc file won't show up properly with say word 97? If I remember correctly, Microsoft generally refers to Word 2000 and Word 97 as having the same format of DOC file. Word 97 may be able to open Word 2000 documents - I don't know. Word 6 (part of Office 4.2 and 4.3 for Windows 3.1) cannot open Word 2000 DOC files at all. Word 6 is so incapable of opening Word 2000 files that it might as well be reading EXE (executable binary code) files. If you tell Word 2000 to create a RTF (Rich Text Format) file, then Word 6 can open that, but Word 6 mangles the Word 2000 formatting badly. Microsoft Word 2000 and Word 6 can't even communicate properly by using the RTF format files. I don't think that this is a devious conspiracy, but, instead, an extreme combination of incompetence, laziness and indifference to needs of customers. JEM, Agincourt, Scarborough, Toronto, Ontario -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From mr6re9-mI4xJ4qlgtBiLUuM0BA3LQ at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 9 01:11:38 2003 From: mr6re9-mI4xJ4qlgtBiLUuM0BA3LQ at public.gmane.org (GDHough) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2003 20:11:38 -0500 Subject: iptables In-Reply-To: References: <5.2.1.1.0.20031108140216.01fe0d20@mail.interlog.com> Message-ID: <200311082011.38994.mr6re9@execulink.com> I'm sure you'd like to get this working over the weekend so... Get rid of the -A's and use -I for INSERT IN_stead. Here is my script I used many moons ago to play in the ZONE from a WinBox inside the network. It worked then and it has remained unchanged. Watch the word wrap! #!/bin/sh # Script named "opengame" to open gaming ports for the zone.msn.com # MS Direct Play Server # echo "opening wifey's game ports and exposing my precious system to an abnormally permiscuous state of vulnerability" << Someone may recall ;-) iptables -t nat -I PREROUTING -p tcp --dport 2300:2400 -i ppp0 -j DNAT --to 192.168.1.20 iptables -t nat -I PREROUTING -p udp --dport 2300:2400 -i ppp0 -j DNAT --to 192.168.1.20 iptables -t nat -I PREROUTING -p tcp --dport 1723 -i ppp0 -j DNAT --to 192.168.1.20 #iptables -t nat -I PREROUTING -p tcp --dport 6667 -i ppp0 -j DNAT --to 192.168.1.20 iptables -t nat -I PREROUTING -p udp --dport 28800:29100 -i ppp0 -j DNAT --to 192.168.1.20 iptables -t nat -I PREROUTING -p tcp --dport 47624 -i ppp0 -j DNAT --to 192.168.1.20 iptables -t nat -I PREROUTING -p udp --dport 47624 -i ppp0 -j DNAT --to 192.168.1.20 # # Forwarding iptables -I FORWARD -p tcp -d 192.168.1.20 --dport 2300:2400 -j ACCEPT iptables -I FORWARD -p udp -d 192.168.1.20 --dport 2300:2400 -j ACCEPT iptables -I FORWARD -p tcp -d 192.168.1.20 --dport 1723 -j ACCEPT #iptables -I FORWARD -p tcp -d 192.168.1.20 --dport 6667 -j ACCEPT iptables -I FORWARD -p udp -d 192.168.1.20 --dport 28800:29100 -j ACCEPT iptables -I FORWARD -p tcp -d 192.168.1.20 --dport 47624 -j ACCEPT iptables -I FORWARD -p udp -d 192.168.1.20 --dport 47624 -j ACCEPT # echo "done" Create a duplicate script and change all the -I's to -D's and you can easily remove all the rules in one fell swoop. farmer6re9 On Saturday 08 November 2003 14:44, gbell72 wrote: > Hmm..well it seems that my server is trying to allow outside access..but > I've had 3 ppl test it and they are receiving a 504 gateway error..is it > possible I have eth0 and eth1 in the wrong position of the rules? > > On Sat, 8 Nov 2003, gbell72 wrote: > > Umm yes the -i was needed..and it works for everyone on my internal lan. > > I just need to figure out how to let the person thats on the outside in. > > > > On Sat, 8 Nov 2003, Kevin Cozens wrote: > > > At 01:27 PM 11/08/2003 -0500, gbell72 wrote: > > > >Bad argument `eth1' > > > > > > [snip] > > > > > > >iptables -A FORWARD -i eth1 -o eth0 -p tcp --dport 8888 -m state > > > > --state NEW,ESTABLISHED,RELATED -j ACCEPT > > > > > > > >iptables -A PREROUTING -t nat -p tcp eth1 --dport 8888 -j DNAT > > > > --to-dest 192.168.0.66:8888 > > > > > > Should that second line have '-i' before eth1? > > > > > > > > > Cheers! -- Eating Crow is better with MyCrowSauce -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From mr6re9-mI4xJ4qlgtBiLUuM0BA3LQ at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 9 01:21:46 2003 From: mr6re9-mI4xJ4qlgtBiLUuM0BA3LQ at public.gmane.org (GDHough) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2003 20:21:46 -0500 Subject: iptables In-Reply-To: References: <5.2.1.1.0.20031108150320.01fdb7f0@mail.interlog.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20031108153259.01fe4ec0@mail.interlog.com> Message-ID: <200311082021.46465.mr6re9@execulink.com> I still think you need an INPUT rule for this. Anyways, try inserting your rules and then: iptables -L --line-numbers This will list your tables and the order in which packets traverse the filters. I think you may be dropping before allowing...just a hunch. On Saturday 08 November 2003 16:39, gbell72 wrote: > It does seem so..I've since changed my rules again slightly to look like > so..when I was using firestarter I only needed 2 rules to make this work, > my present rules look like so: > > iptables -A FORWARD -i eth1 -o eth0 -p tcp --dport 8888 -m state --state > NEW,ESTABLISHED,RELATED -j ACCEPT > > iptables -t nat -I PREROUTING -i eth1 -p tcp --dport 8888 -j DNAT --to-dest > 192.168.0.66:8888 > > which still allows anyone on lan access, but not outside. I'm new at > customizing my own rules so thing are still kinda cryptic to me > > On Sat, 8 Nov 2003, Kevin Cozens wrote: > > At 03:03 PM 11/08/2003 -0500, you wrote: > > > > I suppose it is possible. Which interface connects to your router and > > > > which is used for the Internal LAN? > > > > > > > > eth1 connects to the cable modem eth0 connects to hub > > > > I haven't had to deal with relaying traffic between interfaces (yet). The > > thought that occurs to me is that you would need to have rules to allow > > eth1 to accept the incoming traffic from the remote user. A forwarding > > rule to reroute the external traffic to your internal LAN on eth0, and > > finally, a rule on eth0 to allow traffic coming from interface eth1 which > > contains an origin address of the external user. It looks like you have > > the first two parts. You may just be missing the last step. > > > > > > Cheers! > > > > Kevin. (http://www.interlog.com/~kcozens/) > > > > Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172 |"What are we going to do today, Borg?" > > E-mail:kcozens at interlog dot com|"Same thing we always do, Pinkutus: > > Packet:ve3syb at ve3yra.#con.on.ca.na| Try to assimilate the world!" > > #include | -Pinkutus & the Borg > > > > -- > > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- Eating Crow is better with MyCrowSauce -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From anton-F0u+EriZ6ihBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 9 01:41:10 2003 From: anton-F0u+EriZ6ihBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Anton Markov) Date: Sat, 08 Nov 2003 20:41:10 -0500 Subject: WinFax equivalent on Linux Message-ID: <3FAD9B36.3060808@truxtar.com> Is there an equivalent to WinFax for Linux? Specifically the features I am looking for are: - Work under both Linux and Windose - Basic auto-receive and (print-to) sending - Address book - Send/receive log (stores/manages massages) - Ability to share all the above features on a network (client/server style) WinFax is a major obsticle in migrating our company's two desktops to Linux, so any help will be greatly appreciated. Thanks. -- Anton Markov -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From gbell72-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 9 01:36:10 2003 From: gbell72-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (gbell72) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2003 20:36:10 -0500 (EST) Subject: iptables In-Reply-To: <200311082011.38994.mr6re9-mI4xJ4qlgtBiLUuM0BA3LQ@public.gmane.org> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20031108140216.01fe0d20@mail.interlog.com> <200311082011.38994.mr6re9@execulink.com> Message-ID: Awesome, getting rid of the A and replacing with the I did the job, thank you to u and Kevin for your assistance. Have a great weekend. Gardner On Sat, 8 Nov 2003, GDHough wrote: > I'm sure you'd like to get this working over the weekend so... > > Get rid of the -A's and use -I for INSERT IN_stead. Here is my script I used > many moons ago to play in the ZONE from a WinBox inside the network. It > worked then and it has remained unchanged. Watch the word wrap! > > #!/bin/sh > # Script named "opengame" to open gaming ports for the zone.msn.com > # MS Direct Play Server > # > echo "opening wifey's game ports and exposing my precious system to an > abnormally permiscuous state of vulnerability" << Someone may recall ;-) > iptables -t nat -I PREROUTING -p tcp --dport 2300:2400 -i ppp0 -j DNAT --to > 192.168.1.20 > iptables -t nat -I PREROUTING -p udp --dport 2300:2400 -i ppp0 -j DNAT --to > 192.168.1.20 > iptables -t nat -I PREROUTING -p tcp --dport 1723 -i ppp0 -j DNAT --to > 192.168.1.20 > #iptables -t nat -I PREROUTING -p tcp --dport 6667 -i ppp0 -j DNAT --to > 192.168.1.20 > iptables -t nat -I PREROUTING -p udp --dport 28800:29100 -i ppp0 -j DNAT --to > 192.168.1.20 > iptables -t nat -I PREROUTING -p tcp --dport 47624 -i ppp0 -j DNAT --to > 192.168.1.20 > iptables -t nat -I PREROUTING -p udp --dport 47624 -i ppp0 -j DNAT --to > 192.168.1.20 > # > # Forwarding > iptables -I FORWARD -p tcp -d 192.168.1.20 --dport 2300:2400 -j ACCEPT > iptables -I FORWARD -p udp -d 192.168.1.20 --dport 2300:2400 -j ACCEPT > iptables -I FORWARD -p tcp -d 192.168.1.20 --dport 1723 -j ACCEPT > #iptables -I FORWARD -p tcp -d 192.168.1.20 --dport 6667 -j ACCEPT > iptables -I FORWARD -p udp -d 192.168.1.20 --dport 28800:29100 -j ACCEPT > iptables -I FORWARD -p tcp -d 192.168.1.20 --dport 47624 -j ACCEPT > iptables -I FORWARD -p udp -d 192.168.1.20 --dport 47624 -j ACCEPT > # > echo "done" > > Create a duplicate script and change all the -I's to -D's and you can easily > remove all the rules in one fell swoop. > > farmer6re9 > > On Saturday 08 November 2003 14:44, gbell72 wrote: > > Hmm..well it seems that my server is trying to allow outside access..but > > I've had 3 ppl test it and they are receiving a 504 gateway error..is it > > possible I have eth0 and eth1 in the wrong position of the rules? > > > > On Sat, 8 Nov 2003, gbell72 wrote: > > > Umm yes the -i was needed..and it works for everyone on my internal lan. > > > I just need to figure out how to let the person thats on the outside in. > > > > > > On Sat, 8 Nov 2003, Kevin Cozens wrote: > > > > At 01:27 PM 11/08/2003 -0500, gbell72 wrote: > > > > >Bad argument `eth1' > > > > > > > > [snip] > > > > > > > > >iptables -A FORWARD -i eth1 -o eth0 -p tcp --dport 8888 -m state > > > > > --state NEW,ESTABLISHED,RELATED -j ACCEPT > > > > > > > > > >iptables -A PREROUTING -t nat -p tcp eth1 --dport 8888 -j DNAT > > > > > --to-dest 192.168.0.66:8888 > > > > > > > > Should that second line have '-i' before eth1? > > > > > > > > > > > > Cheers! > -- > Eating Crow is better with MyCrowSauce > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From scotta-cpI+UMyWUv9BDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 9 01:51:07 2003 From: scotta-cpI+UMyWUv9BDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Scott Allen) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2003 20:51:07 -0500 Subject: Slackware 9.0 default bash aliases In-Reply-To: ; from plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg@public.gmane.org on Sat, Nov 08, 2003 at 09:00:06 -0500 References: <20031108131754.GA2181@localhost> Message-ID: <20031109015107.GA1391@localhost> On Sat Nov 08,2003 09:00:06 AM Peter L. Peres wrote: > > afair it's /etc/profile also /etc/profile.d/ That's what I would have thought, but if this is where the default aliases are being set, I can't figure it out. Perhaps you could point it out to me? here is a directory listing of /etc/profile.d/ # ls -a -l /etc/profile.d total 24 drwxr-xr-x 2 root root 4096 Oct 21 2002 ./ drwxr-xr-x 23 root root 4096 Nov 6 10:45 ../ -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 227 Mar 9 2003 lang.csh* -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 225 Mar 9 2003 lang.sh* -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 50 Oct 21 2002 t1lib.csh* -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 63 Oct 21 2002 t1lib.sh* No sign of any alias commands in any of these. And here is the entire contentes of file /etc/profile ===================================================================== # cat /etc/profile # /etc/profile: This file contains system-wide defaults used by # all Bourne (and related) shells. # Set the values for some environment variables: export MINICOM="-c on" export MANPATH=/usr/local/man:/usr/man:/usr/X11R6/man export HOSTNAME="`cat /etc/HOSTNAME`" export LESSOPEN="|lesspipe.sh %s" export LESS="-M" # If the user doesn't have a .inputrc, use the one in /etc. if [ ! -r "$HOME/.inputrc" ]; then export INPUTRC=/etc/inputrc fi # Set the default system $PATH: PATH="/usr/local/bin:/usr/bin:/bin:/usr/X11R6/bin:/usr/games" # For root users, ensure that /usr/local/sbin, /usr/sbin, and /sbin are in # the $PATH. Some means of connection don't add these by default (sshd comes # to mind). if [ "`id -u`" = "0" ]; then echo $PATH | grep /usr/local/sbin 1> /dev/null 2> /dev/null if [ ! $? = 0 ]; then PATH=/usr/local/sbin:/usr/sbin:/sbin:$PATH fi fi # I had problems using 'eval tset' instead of 'TERM=', but you might want to # try it anyway. I think with the right /etc/termcap it would work great. # eval `tset -sQ "$TERM"` if [ "$TERM" = "" -o "$TERM" = "unknown" ]; then TERM=linux fi # Set ksh93 visual editing mode: if [ "$SHELL" = "/bin/ksh" ]; then VISUAL=emacs # VISUAL=gmacs # VISUAL=vi fi # Set a default shell prompt: #PS1='`hostname`:`pwd`# ' if [ "$SHELL" = "/bin/pdksh" ]; then PS1='! $ ' elif [ "$SHELL" = "/bin/ksh" ]; then PS1='! ${PWD/#$HOME/~}$ ' elif [ "$SHELL" = "/bin/zsh" ]; then PS1='%n@%m:%~%# ' elif [ "$SHELL" = "/bin/ash" ]; then PS1='$ ' else PS1='\u@\h:\w\$ ' fi PS2='> ' export PATH DISPLAY LESS TERM PS1 PS2 # Default umask. A umask of 022 prevents new files from being created group # and world writable. umask 022 # Set up the LS_COLORS and LS_OPTIONS environment variables for color ls: if [ "$SHELL" = "/bin/zsh" ]; then eval `dircolors -z` elif [ "$SHELL" = "/bin/ash" ]; then eval `dircolors -s` else eval `dircolors -b` fi # Notify user of incoming mail. This can be overridden in the user's # local startup file (~/.bash.login or whatever, depending on the shell) if [ -x /usr/bin/biff ]; then biff y fi # Append any additional sh scripts found in /etc/profile.d/: for file in /etc/profile.d/*.sh ; do if [ -x $file ]; then . $file fi done # For non-root users, add the current directory to the search path: if [ ! "`id -u`" = "0" ]; then PATH="$PATH:." fi ===================================================================== -- ** Scott Allen scotta-cpI+UMyWUv9BDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org ** ** Toronto, Ontario, Canada ** -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 9 02:49:11 2003 From: davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (David J Patrick) Date: Sat, 08 Nov 2003 21:49:11 -0500 Subject: dos to unix CR/LF conversion? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3FADAB27.2070900@sympatico.ca> Max Blanco wrote: >Hi all, > >I can't locate a tool using "man" to translate from dos ^m to unix ^m^r >(or whatever) on the command line. > >Anyone know if such a utility exists? If so, how do I invoke it? > >I'm not interested in reinventing any wheels. > >thanks, >max. > > >-- >The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org >TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > > > when fishing around looking for "man you-don't-exactly-know-what" try apropos. it's a tool to help you locate programs on your system whose names you don't know. for example try "apropos dos" or "apropos translate" or "apropos crlf" on the command line. apropos dos (on my system) spits out 25+ suggestions, including; tofrodos (1) [todos] - Converts text files between DOS and Unix formats. unix2dos (1) - Converts text files between DOS and Unix formats. djp -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From gbell72-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 9 02:54:48 2003 From: gbell72-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (gbell72) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2003 21:54:48 -0500 (EST) Subject: Slackware 9.0 default bash aliases In-Reply-To: <20031109015107.GA1391-bi+AKbBUZKZeoWH0uzbU5w@public.gmane.org> References: <20031108131754.GA2181@localhost> <20031109015107.GA1391@localhost> Message-ID: Umm from what I have become acustomed to with a base slackware system are absolutely no aliases set. Only way I actually was able to set my own aliases was by making my own .bash_profile and then adding whatever I needed to my .bashrc. From there I'd add all the aliases I made to /etc/skeleton On Sat, 8 Nov 2003, Scott Allen wrote: > > On Sat Nov 08,2003 09:00:06 AM Peter L. Peres wrote: > > > > afair it's /etc/profile also /etc/profile.d/ > > That's what I would have thought, but if this is where the default > aliases are being set, I can't figure it out. Perhaps you could point > it out to me? > > here is a directory listing of /etc/profile.d/ > > # ls -a -l /etc/profile.d > total 24 > drwxr-xr-x 2 root root 4096 Oct 21 2002 ./ > drwxr-xr-x 23 root root 4096 Nov 6 10:45 ../ > -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 227 Mar 9 2003 lang.csh* > -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 225 Mar 9 2003 lang.sh* > -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 50 Oct 21 2002 t1lib.csh* > -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 63 Oct 21 2002 t1lib.sh* > > No sign of any alias commands in any of these. > > And here is the entire contentes of file /etc/profile > > ===================================================================== > # cat /etc/profile > # /etc/profile: This file contains system-wide defaults used by > # all Bourne (and related) shells. > > # Set the values for some environment variables: > export MINICOM="-c on" > export MANPATH=/usr/local/man:/usr/man:/usr/X11R6/man > export HOSTNAME="`cat /etc/HOSTNAME`" > export LESSOPEN="|lesspipe.sh %s" > export LESS="-M" > > # If the user doesn't have a .inputrc, use the one in /etc. > if [ ! -r "$HOME/.inputrc" ]; then > export INPUTRC=/etc/inputrc > fi > > # Set the default system $PATH: > PATH="/usr/local/bin:/usr/bin:/bin:/usr/X11R6/bin:/usr/games" > > # For root users, ensure that /usr/local/sbin, /usr/sbin, and /sbin are > in > # the $PATH. Some means of connection don't add these by default (sshd > comes > # to mind). > if [ "`id -u`" = "0" ]; then > echo $PATH | grep /usr/local/sbin 1> /dev/null 2> /dev/null > if [ ! $? = 0 ]; then > PATH=/usr/local/sbin:/usr/sbin:/sbin:$PATH > fi > fi > > # I had problems using 'eval tset' instead of 'TERM=', but you might > want to # try it anyway. I think with the right /etc/termcap it would > work great. > # eval `tset -sQ "$TERM"` > if [ "$TERM" = "" -o "$TERM" = "unknown" ]; then > TERM=linux > fi > > # Set ksh93 visual editing mode: > if [ "$SHELL" = "/bin/ksh" ]; then > VISUAL=emacs > # VISUAL=gmacs > # VISUAL=vi > fi > > # Set a default shell prompt: > #PS1='`hostname`:`pwd`# ' > if [ "$SHELL" = "/bin/pdksh" ]; then > PS1='! $ ' > elif [ "$SHELL" = "/bin/ksh" ]; then > PS1='! ${PWD/#$HOME/~}$ ' > elif [ "$SHELL" = "/bin/zsh" ]; then > PS1='%n@%m:%~%# ' > elif [ "$SHELL" = "/bin/ash" ]; then > PS1='$ ' > else > PS1='\u@\h:\w\$ ' > fi > PS2='> ' > export PATH DISPLAY LESS TERM PS1 PS2 > > # Default umask. A umask of 022 prevents new files from being created > group > # and world writable. > umask 022 > > # Set up the LS_COLORS and LS_OPTIONS environment variables for color > ls: > if [ "$SHELL" = "/bin/zsh" ]; then > eval `dircolors -z` > elif [ "$SHELL" = "/bin/ash" ]; then > eval `dircolors -s` > else > eval `dircolors -b` > fi > > # Notify user of incoming mail. This can be overridden in the user's > # local startup file (~/.bash.login or whatever, depending on the shell) > if [ -x /usr/bin/biff ]; then > biff y > fi > > # Append any additional sh scripts found in /etc/profile.d/: > for file in /etc/profile.d/*.sh ; do > if [ -x $file ]; then > . $file > fi > done > > # For non-root users, add the current directory to the search path: > if [ ! "`id -u`" = "0" ]; then > PATH="$PATH:." > fi > ===================================================================== > > > -- > ** Scott Allen scotta-cpI+UMyWUv9BDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org ** > ** Toronto, Ontario, Canada ** > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From legrady-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 9 03:25:37 2003 From: legrady-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Tom Legrady) Date: Sat, 08 Nov 2003 22:25:37 -0500 Subject: dos to unix CR/LF conversion? In-Reply-To: <3FADAB27.2070900-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FADAB27.2070900@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <3FADB3B1.1000708@rogers.com> or if you have the 'man' habit, use the '-k' option ... absolutely identical to 'apropos'. [legrady at localhost legrady]$ man -k dos | grep unix dos2unix (1) - DOS/MAC to UNIX text file format converter dos2unix [mac2unix] (1) - DOS/MAC to UNIX text file format converter unix2dos (1) - UNIX to DOS text file format converter Tom David J Patrick wrote: > Max Blanco wrote: > >> I can't locate a tool using "man" to ....... > > when fishing around looking for "man you-don't-exactly-know-what" try > apropos. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 9 03:35:22 2003 From: davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (David J Patrick) Date: Sat, 08 Nov 2003 22:35:22 -0500 Subject: dos to unix CR/LF conversion? In-Reply-To: <3FADB3B1.1000708-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <3FADAB27.2070900@sympatico.ca> <3FADB3B1.1000708@rogers.com> Message-ID: <3FADB5FA.5@sympatico.ca> Tom Legrady wrote: > or if you have the 'man' habit, use the '-k' option ... absolutely > identical to 'apropos'. > > [legrady at localhost legrady]$ man -k dos | grep unix pipe to grep, no less, hot tip! you da man ! djp -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 9 04:37:21 2003 From: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2003 23:37:21 -0500 (EST) Subject: linux = impossible? (no offense meant!) In-Reply-To: <20031108213150.GA47101-Ko7VQgJ6otXK2ngFqW3eKNllqMFDOoLF@public.gmane.org> References: <20031108151915.10151.qmail@mail.com> <20031108104744.327e1f78.joehill@sympatico.ca> <3FAD2ECD.30503@sympatico.ca> <20031108213150.GA47101@pluto.bsdwebhosting.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 8 Nov 2003, Byron Desnoyers Winmill wrote: > It doesn't matter if the best package manager in the world is easier to > use than Windows installation programs. It simply won't fly if it > doesn't fit people perceptions of how things should be done. These > days, people think you obtain a piece of software (either in a store or > by downloading it) and run an installer. That will never work under > Linux because of dependencies. You really have to try Debian. That's all I have to say on this topic :) > Dependency hell won't fade away until developers decide to toss away > this notion that two, three, four, etc. levels of dependencies are > acceptable. If anything, the situation is getting worse ... and I Or have the distro deal with them properly. See my earlier comment. > Baloney. A GUI need be no more or no less powerful than the command I really have to take issue with this statement. As far as my 11 years of unix use tell me, the CLI is orders or magnitude more versatile & powerful than the GUI. You'll need to back this statement up I'm afraid :) > line. If a difference does exist in functionality (and I certainly > think there is), it is only because most GUIs were designed with less > functionality to make them easier to use. Similarly, you can design I propose a GUI approaching the usefulness of a CLI (none have yet been created IMHO) would need to be more complex than a CLI because the very structure of a GUI tries to narrow down a users choices. My shell might have hundreds of built in functions which are invisible to me unless I call them. If I tried to display them all in a GUI, with their myriad options, I'd either need menus of several screen lengths or menus imbedded to many levels. Neither is desirable. Having said this, all current GUIs are based more or less on the work done by Xerox in the 70s. I'm not saying it is impossible for a completely new design to emerge which will rival the CLI for functionality. Here I'm talking about something potentially as different from a GUI as the CLI is, not a flashy new variation on the same theme. No sign of such a beast yet that I can see, and little or no work being done to design such a beast. Rob -- Robert Brockway B.Sc. email: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org, zzbrock at uqconnect.net Linux counter project ID #16440 (http://counter.li.org) "The earth is but one country and mankind its citizens" -Baha'u'llah -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From roulton623-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 9 05:53:32 2003 From: roulton623-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Stephen Oulton) Date: 09 Nov 2003 00:53:32 -0500 Subject: Hello Every One Message-ID: <1068357208.3355.7.camel@CPE0080c6f2a89b-CM00003940c461.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com> I have been using Mandrake 9.1 for almost a year. Lately my computer has started to respond very slowly after a while of use. When I first start the system and go to my user area it works fine and after a few minutes it starts to respond slowly. If I log out and log in again then it works fine for a while. I have tried to find things in the documents and have failed to find anything that could cause this. If it happened in windows I would figure that the computer is running multiple files at the same time. Maybe spy ware or system tools running in the back ground. Is there a defrag for linux or does it defrag as it saves files? I would appreciate any help you could give me Thanks in advance Stephen Oulton -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From legrady-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 9 06:01:23 2003 From: legrady-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Tom Legrady) Date: Sun, 09 Nov 2003 01:01:23 -0500 Subject: Hello Every One In-Reply-To: <1068357208.3355.7.camel-dKL88l7hNfq+7LdUnWLbWeRNwQ1nxAZKTJmjD0f5kqEKu2YovVVDERgSKFK9O5hcLMHrShElKjA@public.gmane.org> References: <1068357208.3355.7.camel@CPE0080c6f2a89b-CM00003940c461.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com> Message-ID: <3FADD833.6040900@rogers.com> defrag is a meaningless concept with unix Tom Stephen Oulton wrote: >I have been using Mandrake 9.1 for almost a year. Lately my computer has >started to respond very slowly after a while of use. > >When I first start the system and go to my user area it works fine and >after a few minutes it starts to respond slowly. > >If I log out and log in again then it works fine for a while. > >I have tried to find things in the documents and have failed to find >anything that could cause this. > >If it happened in windows I would figure that the computer is running >multiple files at the same time. Maybe spy ware or system tools running >in the back ground. > >Is there a defrag for linux or does it defrag as it saves files? > >I would appreciate any help you could give me > >Thanks in advance > Stephen Oulton > > > >-- >The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org >TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jingsu-26n5VD7DAF2Tm46uYYfjYg at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 9 05:59:53 2003 From: jingsu-26n5VD7DAF2Tm46uYYfjYg at public.gmane.org (Jing Su) Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2003 00:59:53 -0500 Subject: Hello Every One In-Reply-To: <1068357208.3355.7.camel@CPE0080c6f2a89b-CM00003940c461.cpe.net. cable.rogers.com> References: <1068357208.3355.7.camel@CPE0080c6f2a89b-CM00003940c461.cpe.net. cable.rogers.com> Message-ID: just a few initial ideas... well, the Linux filesystem doens't need to be defragged because it doesn't use a flat allocation table. So nothing to worry about there. Have you tried running 'top' to see if there is any runaway process that's eating the CPU time? Is your CPU fan still going? Maybe the processor is getting too hot and dying under the heat? -Jing On Sun, 9 Nov 2003, Stephen Oulton wrote: > I have been using Mandrake 9.1 for almost a year. Lately my computer has > started to respond very slowly after a while of use. > > When I first start the system and go to my user area it works fine and > after a few minutes it starts to respond slowly. > > If I log out and log in again then it works fine for a while. > > I have tried to find things in the documents and have failed to find > anything that could cause this. > > If it happened in windows I would figure that the computer is running > multiple files at the same time. Maybe spy ware or system tools running > in the back ground. > > Is there a defrag for linux or does it defrag as it saves files? > > I would appreciate any help you could give me > > Thanks in advance > Stephen Oulton > > > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From IlyaPalagin-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 9 01:08:35 2003 From: IlyaPalagin-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Ilya Palagin) Date: Sun, 09 Nov 2003 01:08:35 +0000 Subject: WinFax equivalent on Linux In-Reply-To: <3FAD9B36.3060808-F0u+EriZ6ihBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <3FAD9B36.3060808@truxtar.com> Message-ID: <3FAD9393.7060201@rogers.com> Anton Markov wrote: > Is there an equivalent to WinFax for Linux? Specifically the features I > am looking > for are: > - Work under both Linux and Windose > - Basic auto-receive and (print-to) sending > - Address book > - Send/receive log (stores/manages massages) > - Ability to share all the above features on a network (client/server > style) > > WinFax is a major obsticle in migrating our company's two desktops to > Linux, so > any help will be greatly appreciated. > Try HylaFAX. It's run as a server and has clients for both Linux and Windows. I've got a good experience with it, running with 3 faxmodems (actually, for receiving only). I've also scripted a web interface and a small database for received fax messages to avoid printing. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From IlyaPalagin-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 9 01:13:59 2003 From: IlyaPalagin-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Ilya Palagin) Date: Sun, 09 Nov 2003 01:13:59 +0000 Subject: Hello Every One In-Reply-To: <1068357208.3355.7.camel-dKL88l7hNfq+7LdUnWLbWeRNwQ1nxAZKTJmjD0f5kqEKu2YovVVDERgSKFK9O5hcLMHrShElKjA@public.gmane.org> References: <1068357208.3355.7.camel@CPE0080c6f2a89b-CM00003940c461.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com> Message-ID: <3FAD94D7.7020001@rogers.com> Stephen Oulton wrote: > I have been using Mandrake 9.1 for almost a year. Lately my computer has > started to respond very slowly after a while of use. > > When I first start the system and go to my user area it works fine and > after a few minutes it starts to respond slowly. > > If I log out and log in again then it works fine for a while. > > I have tried to find things in the documents and have failed to find > anything that could cause this. > > If it happened in windows I would figure that the computer is running > multiple files at the same time. Maybe spy ware or system tools running > in the back ground. > > Is there a defrag for linux or does it defrag as it saves files? Yes, there is, but you don't need it. Fragmentation in any Linux FS is too little and it isn't the reason. > > I would appreciate any help you could give me How much memory do you have? Do you have a swap partition? What size? What applications are you running after your system slows down? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 9 06:58:39 2003 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2003 01:58:39 -0500 Subject: Slackware 9.0 default bash aliases In-Reply-To: <20031108131754.GA2181-bi+AKbBUZKZeoWH0uzbU5w@public.gmane.org> References: <20031108131754.GA2181@localhost> Message-ID: <20031109065839.GA405@node1.opengeometry.net> On Sat, Nov 08, 2003 at 08:17:54AM -0500, Scott Allen wrote: > Hi all, > > When I log in as root to a "virgin" Slackware 9.0 system and type > "alias" I get the following: > > alias d='dir' > alias dir='/bin/ls $LS_OPTIONS --format=vertical' > alias ls='/bin/ls $LS_OPTIONS' > alias v='vdir' > alias vdir='/bin/ls $LS_OPTIONS --format=long' > > I've spent a few hours searching the system itself, and also google, > and can't find where these aliases are being set up. > > I'd like to be able to change and add to these aliases. I'm sure I can > figure out a way to do it (.bashrc, .profile or something), but it > bothers me that I can't find the script or code that sets up these > defaults. > > Anyone know where it is in Slackware 9.0? Those aliases are set up by 'dircolors' in /etc/profile. To define your own alias, use ~/.profile (or ~/.bashrc). man dircolors man bash -- William Park, Open Geometry Consulting, Linux solution for data management and processing. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jzygmont-tEQKYFGiemxAYG7eUwYNkWD2FQJk+8+b at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 9 07:57:10 2003 From: jzygmont-tEQKYFGiemxAYG7eUwYNkWD2FQJk+8+b at public.gmane.org (Justin Zygmont) Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2003 02:57:10 -0500 (EST) Subject: Hello Every One In-Reply-To: <1068357208.3355.7.camel-dKL88l7hNfq+7LdUnWLbWeRNwQ1nxAZKTJmjD0f5kqEKu2YovVVDERgSKFK9O5hcLMHrShElKjA@public.gmane.org> References: <1068357208.3355.7.camel@CPE0080c6f2a89b-CM00003940c461.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com> Message-ID: do you know if there is a background process running that maybe causing this? type ps -aux to see what's taking the most cpu usage when the system slows down. On 9 Nov 2003, Stephen Oulton wrote: > I have been using Mandrake 9.1 for almost a year. Lately my computer has > started to respond very slowly after a while of use. > > When I first start the system and go to my user area it works fine and > after a few minutes it starts to respond slowly. > > If I log out and log in again then it works fine for a while. > > I have tried to find things in the documents and have failed to find > anything that could cause this. > > If it happened in windows I would figure that the computer is running > multiple files at the same time. Maybe spy ware or system tools running > in the back ground. > > Is there a defrag for linux or does it defrag as it saves files? > > I would appreciate any help you could give me > > Thanks in advance > Stephen Oulton > > > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 9 12:14:30 2003 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Sun, 09 Nov 2003 07:14:30 -0500 Subject: dos to unix CR/LF conversion? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3FAE2FA6.9050100@rogers.com> Henry Spencer wrote: > On Sat, 8 Nov 2003, Max Blanco wrote: > >>you were right. My mac/ie5 converted linefeed to ^m, instead of \r. >>I can't see straight anymore between '\n', '\r', "^M", "^L", C, perl, tr, >>unix, dos, mac, dog, cat. Arrgh. > > > Let's get this one sorted out once and for all... > > Unix end-of-line is ASCII LF = linefeed = newline = \n = \012 = ^J. (This > actually follows the ASCII standard, which says that if one character is > used for newline, it shall be LF.) You should indicate you're using octal for \012. If using decimal, ^J is 10. It's straight counting. ^A is 1, ^B is 2 etc. > > Mac end-of-line is ASCII CR = carriage return = \r = \015 = ^M. (This is > just wrong, a stupid violation of standards, but it's a bit late to fix > Apple's botch.) > > DOS/Windows end-of-line is ASCII CR followed by ASCII LF. (This also > follows the ASCII standard, which by default separates CR "go back to left > margin" from LF "go down to next line". However, with two characters, you > have all sorts of fun questions about what happens if they show up in the > wrong order, or if only one of them shows up. Unix made the right choice > by using a single character.) Back in the days of mechanical printers, you were supposed to do the CR first, to allow time for the carriage to move back to the left margin. If you did the LF first, you'd often get the 1st character of the next line, somewhere along the middle of the line. > > ^L is formfeed, and ^R is an obscure device-control character, and neither > of those is involved at all. Again with the old mechanical devices, it was often used to control the tape punch, though that was not the only use. According to my trusty ASCII and Baudot card, from back in my tech days, it was called Device Control 2 (DC2). > > Converting Unix to Mac or vice-versa is easy on most modern systems: > > tr '\n' '\r' output # Unix to Mac > tr '\r' '\n' output # Mac to Unix > > (On old systems, it may be necessary to spell \n as \012 and \r as \015.) > This just transforms one character into the other. > > Converting DOS to Unix is likewise easy: > > tr -d '\r' output # DOS to Unix > > This deletes the silly CRs, leaving the LFs which are already in the > right places. > > Going *to* DOS is a little harder, because it requires inserting the > missing characters, which "tr" can't do. You could do it with "sed", but > that's a little awkward because of the lack of good escape conventions for > the unprintable characters. So let's use awk instead: > > awk '{ print $0 "\r" }' output # Unix to DOS > > Henry Spencer > henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 9 12:15:58 2003 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Sun, 09 Nov 2003 07:15:58 -0500 Subject: dos to unix CR/LF conversion? In-Reply-To: <3FAD4C38.4070707-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <3FAD4C38.4070707@rogers.com> Message-ID: <3FAE2FFE.90805@rogers.com> Error on my part. That should be ^J & ^M. James Knott wrote: > There shouldn't be a ^r. The dos chars are ^l & ^m, with Unix using > only ^l. > > > Max Blanco wrote: > >> Thanks to all who answered. >> I did as James suggested and found the app dos2unix at >> . >> Unfortunately, at first glance, it seems to delete ^m but doesn't seem >> to insert ^r? That's what happened to my text file. That's just a >> minor tweak to the source code, though. >> >> cheers, >> max. >> >> On Sat, 8 Nov 2003, James Knott wrote: >> >> >>> Max Blanco wrote: >>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> I can't locate a tool using "man" to translate from dos ^m to unix >>>> ^m^r (or whatever) on the command line. >>>> >>>> Anyone know if such a utility exists? If so, how do I invoke it? >>>> >>>> I'm not interested in reinventing any wheels. >>> >>> >>> There is a utility called dos2unix & the reverse. If it's not >>> installed in your distro, you can download it from somewhere. Use >>> google to search on dos2unix >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org >> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 9 12:16:14 2003 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Sun, 09 Nov 2003 07:16:14 -0500 Subject: dos to unix CR/LF conversion? In-Reply-To: <3FAD4C38.4070707-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <3FAD4C38.4070707@rogers.com> Message-ID: <3FAE300E.9090208@rogers.com> Error on my part. That should be ^J & ^M. James Knott wrote: > There shouldn't be a ^r. The dos chars are ^l & ^m, with Unix using > only ^l. > > > Max Blanco wrote: > >> Thanks to all who answered. >> I did as James suggested and found the app dos2unix at >> . >> Unfortunately, at first glance, it seems to delete ^m but doesn't seem >> to insert ^r? That's what happened to my text file. That's just a >> minor tweak to the source code, though. >> >> cheers, >> max. >> >> On Sat, 8 Nov 2003, James Knott wrote: >> >> >>> Max Blanco wrote: >>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> I can't locate a tool using "man" to translate from dos ^m to unix >>>> ^m^r (or whatever) on the command line. >>>> >>>> Anyone know if such a utility exists? If so, how do I invoke it? >>>> >>>> I'm not interested in reinventing any wheels. >>> >>> >>> There is a utility called dos2unix & the reverse. If it's not >>> installed in your distro, you can download it from somewhere. Use >>> google to search on dos2unix >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org >> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 9 12:19:12 2003 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Sun, 09 Nov 2003 07:19:12 -0500 Subject: Word .DOC viewer for Mozilla In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20031108180353.26078e4e-BF7s+LSmFG27ALip+uieHQ@public.gmane.org> References: <3.0.6.16.20031108180353.26078e4e@mail.look.ca> Message-ID: <3FAE30C0.3080801@rogers.com> James McIntosh wrote: > If you tell Word 2000 to create a RTF (Rich Text Format) file, then Word 6 > can open that, but Word 6 mangles the Word 2000 formatting badly. > > Microsoft Word 2000 and Word 6 can't even communicate properly by using the > RTF format files. > > I don't think that this is a devious conspiracy, but, instead, an extreme > combination of incompetence, laziness and indifference to needs of customers. As I recall, there was one point where if an office upgraded(?) one user to the later version of Word, all had to upgrade, because the later version would only write in a format that the earlier versions couldn't read. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 9 12:23:10 2003 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Sun, 09 Nov 2003 07:23:10 -0500 Subject: WinFax equivalent on Linux In-Reply-To: <3FAD9B36.3060808-F0u+EriZ6ihBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <3FAD9B36.3060808@truxtar.com> Message-ID: <3FAE31AE.8080004@rogers.com> Anton Markov wrote: > Is there an equivalent to WinFax for Linux? Specifically the features I > am looking > for are: > - Work under both Linux and Windose > - Basic auto-receive and (print-to) sending > - Address book > - Send/receive log (stores/manages massages) > - Ability to share all the above features on a network (client/server > style) > > WinFax is a major obsticle in migrating our company's two desktops to > Linux, so > any help will be greatly appreciated. I have PMFax, which is also available for OS/2 and Windows. I have used the OS/2 version (Faxworks) for many years and it works very well. The Linux version is very similar, but I haven't used it much. I haven't tried it in Windows, though I believe a "Lite" version used to be included with Windows. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 9 12:27:28 2003 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Sun, 09 Nov 2003 07:27:28 -0500 Subject: Hello Every One In-Reply-To: <1068357208.3355.7.camel-dKL88l7hNfq+7LdUnWLbWeRNwQ1nxAZKTJmjD0f5kqEKu2YovVVDERgSKFK9O5hcLMHrShElKjA@public.gmane.org> References: <1068357208.3355.7.camel@CPE0080c6f2a89b-CM00003940c461.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com> Message-ID: <3FAE32B0.1080404@rogers.com> Stephen Oulton wrote: > I have been using Mandrake 9.1 for almost a year. Lately my computer has > started to respond very slowly after a while of use. > > When I first start the system and go to my user area it works fine and > after a few minutes it starts to respond slowly. > > If I log out and log in again then it works fine for a while. > > I have tried to find things in the documents and have failed to find > anything that could cause this. > > If it happened in windows I would figure that the computer is running > multiple files at the same time. Maybe spy ware or system tools running > in the back ground. Try running ps aux|grep to see what's running. > > Is there a defrag for linux or does it defrag as it saves files? Only MS file systems need defragging. Others, such as ext2, ext3, HPFS etc., are frag resistant. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From scotta-cpI+UMyWUv9BDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 9 13:10:46 2003 From: scotta-cpI+UMyWUv9BDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Scott Allen) Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2003 08:10:46 -0500 Subject: Slackware 9.0 default bash aliases In-Reply-To: <20031109065839.GA405-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org>; from opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA@public.gmane.org on Sun, Nov 09, 2003 at 01:58:39 -0500 References: <20031108131754.GA2181@localhost> <20031109065839.GA405@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <20031109131046.GA3444@localhost> On Sun Nov 09,2003 01:58:39 AM William Park wrote: > Those aliases are set up by 'dircolors' in /etc/profile. You're right William, that's where it is! Thanks very much. I never would have guessed. It seems that the man page for dircolors provided in Slackware 9.0 does not match the actual binary provided. The man page describes -p and --help options that don't work, and the provided dircolors has a -z option that is not described in the man page. There is no indication in the man page that it can be used to set aliases. > To define your own alias, use ~/.profile (or ~/.bashrc). I'll do that (as I have for other distributions). I just wanted to solve the mystery of the default aliases. Thanks again, Scott -- ** Scott Allen scotta-cpI+UMyWUv9BDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org ** ** Toronto, Ontario, Canada ** -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 9 13:30:42 2003 From: fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Fraser Campbell) Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2003 08:30:42 -0500 Subject: Hello Every One In-Reply-To: <1068357208.3355.7.camel-dKL88l7hNfq+7LdUnWLbWeRNwQ1nxAZKTJmjD0f5kqEKu2YovVVDERgSKFK9O5hcLMHrShElKjA@public.gmane.org> References: <1068357208.3355.7.camel@CPE0080c6f2a89b-CM00003940c461.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com> Message-ID: <200311090830.42937.fraser@wehave.net> On November 9, 2003 12:53 am, Stephen Oulton wrote: > When I first start the system and go to my user area it works fine and > after a few minutes it starts to respond slowly. Something is probably using up all your memory, type free and see what the output says: total used free shared buffers cached Mem: 256784 242004 14780 0 23896 57880 -/+ buffers/cache: 160228 96556 Swap: 497972 88032 409940 The important numbers are 256784, 160228 and 88032. 256784 is total available real memory. 160228 is the total real memory used by your system (excluding fs cache), 88032 is the amount of swap space used. If the total real memory used (160228) approaches the total memory available (256784) then you're likely to have serious performance issues. An easy way to see what's hogging your memory is top. Go into top then press M to sort by memory usage. The top memory hogs will be at the top of the list, I believe RSS is the number that's most important of the memory columns. Once you've found a process that's sucking up memory then start debugging it. X, browsers and kde processes are often memory hogs but if they're causing trouble often the only recourse is to disable them. We once saw a Mandrake computer that was using over 300MB of available memory (all memory in fact). Turns out it's cups daemon had been configured to save every single print job ever printed. Don't know if cups was loading them all into memory or what exactly it was doing but once we reconfigured it to not do that and purged all old print jobs things were fine. Another possiblity is that something is taking CPU time, again top will show you top CPU hogs, I believe it sorts according to CPU usage by default, if not press P. There are lots of other possibilities I'd think. Try dmesg to see if there are any interesting kernel messages, check logs, etc. -- Fraser Campbell http://www.wehave.net/ Georgetown, Ontario, Canada Debian GNU/Linux -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jab-76OBl6+JcyzDN57Tih+YPw at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 9 15:21:59 2003 From: jab-76OBl6+JcyzDN57Tih+YPw at public.gmane.org (Jeremy Baker) Date: Sun, 09 Nov 2003 10:21:59 -0500 Subject: Word .DOC viewer for Mozilla In-Reply-To: <3FAE30C0.3080801-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <3.0.6.16.20031108180353.26078e4e@mail.look.ca> <3FAE30C0.3080801@rogers.com> Message-ID: <3FAE5B97.1080608@muskokatech.ca> I work in an all microsoft environment, and have gone from office 4.2 (word 6) on wfw to office97 on win98 and now are going to officexp and winxp. The format for the files changed when we went to office97, but office97 could save to the old format. As far as I can tell, we have had no compatibility problems with officexp and office97, so unless it has to do with features that we don't use, the format is the same. Jeremy Baker James Knott wrote: > James McIntosh wrote: > >> If you tell Word 2000 to create a RTF (Rich Text Format) file, then >> Word 6 >> can open that, but Word 6 mangles the Word 2000 formatting badly. >> >> Microsoft Word 2000 and Word 6 can't even communicate properly by >> using the >> RTF format files. >> >> I don't think that this is a devious conspiracy, but, instead, an >> extreme >> combination of incompetence, laziness and indifference to needs of >> customers. > > > As I recall, there was one point where if an office upgraded(?) one > user to the later version of Word, all had to upgrade, because the > later version would only write in a format that the earlier versions > couldn't read. > > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 9 16:35:41 2003 From: henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org (Henry Spencer) Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2003 11:35:41 -0500 (EST) Subject: dos to unix CR/LF conversion? In-Reply-To: <3FAE2FA6.9050100-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <3FAE2FA6.9050100@rogers.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 9 Nov 2003, James Knott wrote: > > Unix end-of-line is ASCII LF = linefeed = newline = \n = \012 = ^J. ... > > You should indicate you're using octal for \012. The backslash-digits notation is always octal. However, I should have mentioned that, for the benefit of newcomers. > ...It's straight counting. ^A is 1, ^B is 2 etc. Actually, it is more or less an accident that ^A is 1. (You forgot that ^@ is 0.) It *is* a straight count after that. > > ... ^R is an obscure device-control character, and neither > > of those is involved at all. > > Again with the old mechanical devices, it was often used to control the > tape punch, though that was not the only use. According to my trusty > ASCII and Baudot card, from back in my tech days, it was called Device > Control 2 (DC2). It was DC1 and DC3 that usually controlled the tape hardware, at least on the equipment I used. But there may have been other variations. Henry Spencer henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From rufmetal-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 9 16:30:32 2003 From: rufmetal-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org (Chris Keelan) Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2003 11:30:32 -0500 Subject: Hello Every One In-Reply-To: <1068357208.3355.7.camel-dKL88l7hNfq+7LdUnWLbWeRNwQ1nxAZKTJmjD0f5kqEKu2YovVVDERgSKFK9O5hcLMHrShElKjA@public.gmane.org> References: <1068357208.3355.7.camel@CPE0080c6f2a89b-CM00003940c461.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com> Message-ID: <20031109113032.05e422bc.rufmetal@eol.ca> On 09 Nov 2003 00:53:32 -0500 Stephen Oulton wrote: > I have been using Mandrake 9.1 for almost a year. Lately my computer > has started to respond very slowly after a while of use. Back when I was running Mandrake (8.2 days), I had a similar problem. When I ran top, I found that logrotate was bz2-ing some bodaceous log file which I didn't even know existed. As others have suggested, use ps and top to see which processes are eating your cycles. Then go into the Mandrake Control Centre and turn off anything which you don't specifically need. HTH ~ C -- gpg pubkey fingerprint: 100E A98E E143 C326 547C A207 A704 F673 8B4E A754 **** Well I thought you beat "The Death of Inevitability" to death --just a little bit! ~ Tragically Hip -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lists-Gb8Tj4xcA4YgsBAKwltoeQ at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 9 17:04:21 2003 From: lists-Gb8Tj4xcA4YgsBAKwltoeQ at public.gmane.org (Byron Q. Desnoyers Winmill) Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2003 12:04:21 -0500 (EST) Subject: linux = impossible? (no offense meant!) In-Reply-To: References: <20031108151915.10151.qmail@mail.com> <20031108104744.327e1f78.joehill@sympatico.ca> <3FAD2ECD.30503@sympatico.ca> <20031108213150.GA47101@pluto.bsdwebhosting.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 8 Nov 2003, Robert Brockway wrote: > You really have to try Debian. I've used Debian for years, and I'm missing your point. > Or have the distro deal with them properly. I guess that there are two ways to look a dependency hell. You seem to be suggesting that dependencies are only a problem if you have a conflict. If the package managment tools can avoid conflicts, then all is well. It is probably the sane way to look at things, and it is probably the perspective which most users take. But dependencies also increase the complexity of the system. I tend to frown upon that because it makes a system more difficult to maintain, and ultimately more difficult to use. > As far as my 11 years of unix use tell me, the CLI is orders or > magnitude more versatile & powerful than the GUI. You'll need to back > this statement up I'm afraid :) I was suggesting that there is no reason why the CLI should be less powerful than the GUI. I would be hard pressed to find an example. I can, however, point to a couple of hybred systems. A/UX and MPW attached a GUI to each command (ie. Commando). In the case of A/UX, this included most (if not all) of the unix tools. Seeming as you brought up SmallTalk (ie. a product of Xerox's GUI work), I have seen modern environments integrate scripting and the GUI in an intimate manner. > a GUI tries to narrow down a users choices. I would argue that a GUI depends upon recognition: may it be icons, spatial positions, or of something's place in the hierarchy. On the otherhand, CLIs depend upon recall. In otherwords, a GUI doesn't necessarily narrow down user choices -- it simply does so because most hUI designers think that simplicity implies ease of use. > I'm not saying it is impossible for a completely new design to emerge > which will rival the CLI for functionality. I know that there are designs better than the unix shell, particularly when it comes to managing command histories and scripting (eg. MPW and Smalltalk), there are better ways to handle command completion (eg. FileFreak), and there are better ways to handle command line switches (eg. A/UX and MPW). Byron. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From rickl-ZACYGPecefkNbK0NzMECUg at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 9 17:30:12 2003 From: rickl-ZACYGPecefkNbK0NzMECUg at public.gmane.org (rickl-ZACYGPecefkNbK0NzMECUg at public.gmane.org) Date: 9 Nov 2003 17:30:12 -0000 Subject: SCO has valid case Message-ID: <20031109173012.8823.qmail@wm0.netfirms.com> Dogma and rehotoric are great entertainment. SCO's stock price is today $16.95 according to Bigcharts. RickT Novell Resource: http://www.TorontoNUI.ca If I wanted to blow smoke up my ass, I get a cigarette and a length of hose -- The Simpsons On 7 Nov 2003 at 6:20, JoeHill wrote: > On Thu, 06 Nov 2003 22:16:59 -0500 > cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org uttered: > > > > No matter which way they turn, they're fsck-ed. > > > > Well, there's ONE "way out," namely for them to be "right" about all > > of their claims, or at least, for the relevant court to see things > > that way. Which is less impossible than we'd like it to be :-(. > > If you want the nitty-gritty on why SCO is not right, objectively > speaking, check this out: > > http://www.opensource.org/halloween/halloween9.html > > and the SCO archives at Groklaw: > > http://www.groklaw.net/staticpages/index.php?page=20030831173953678 > > Most anyone who has a passing familiarity with case or IP law, is not > owned by MS or SCO, and has half a brain, agrees that SCO's case is pure > BS. > > What scares *me* is that although, AFAIK, most judges in the US have a > passing familiarity with case and/or IP law, I have no confidence > whatsoever in them rendering a decision that is based on them having > more than half a brain ;-) > > And as for being "owned", well, we all saw what happened in the DOJ case > against MS after Bush made his views known. > > -- > JoeHill > Registered Linux user #282046 > Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > If we do not change our direction we are likely to end up where we are > headed. > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jay-ZPnsNkHkFjk at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 9 17:27:48 2003 From: jay-ZPnsNkHkFjk at public.gmane.org (Jason Carson) Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2003 12:27:48 -0500 (EST) Subject: Hello Every One In-Reply-To: <1068357208.3355.7.camel@CPE0080c6f2a89b-CM00003940c461.cpe.net.cable. rogers.com> References: <1068357208.3355.7.camel@CPE0080c6f2a89b-CM00003940c461.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com> Message-ID: <43692.66.11.182.5.1068398868.squirrel@cbits.ca> I'm running Mandrake 9.2 and KDE has a taskbar applet called 'Runaway Process Catcher', run that and see it if tells you anything.. If something is wrong, it will cause a window to pop up asking you if you want to close the program that is draining resources... that may help you isolate the problem. -Jay > I have been using Mandrake 9.1 for almost a year. Lately my computer has > started to respond very slowly after a while of use. > > When I first start the system and go to my user area it works fine and > after a few minutes it starts to respond slowly. > > If I log out and log in again then it works fine for a while. > > I have tried to find things in the documents and have failed to find > anything that could cause this. > > If it happened in windows I would figure that the computer is running > multiple files at the same time. Maybe spy ware or system tools running > in the back ground. > > Is there a defrag for linux or does it defrag as it saves files? > > I would appreciate any help you could give me > > Thanks in advance > Stephen Oulton > > > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 9 18:18:46 2003 From: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2003 13:18:46 -0500 (EST) Subject: linux = impossible? (no offense meant!) In-Reply-To: References: <20031108151915.10151.qmail@mail.com> <20031108104744.327e1f78.joehill@sympatico.ca> <3FAD2ECD.30503@sympatico.ca> <20031108213150.GA47101@pluto.bsdwebhosting.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 9 Nov 2003, Byron Q. Desnoyers Winmill wrote: > > > On Sat, 8 Nov 2003, Robert Brockway wrote: > > You really have to try Debian. > > I guess that there are two ways to look a dependency hell. You seem to > be suggesting that dependencies are only a problem if you have a > conflict. If the package managment tools can avoid conflicts, then all Yep, I really only see dependencies as a problem if there is a conflict or if there is a dependency missing which prevents installation of a needed component. > is well. It is probably the sane way to look at things, and it is > probably the perspective which most users take. I think so. > But dependencies also increase the complexity of the system. I tend to > frown upon that because it makes a system more difficult to maintain, > and ultimately more difficult to use. FWIW, as long as the distro is managing it for me I'm prepared to accept the added complexity given that there are many advantages to "standing on the backs of giants" as another poster put it. I do now understand your point even if I don't agree that it is such a problem. > > As far as my 11 years of unix use tell me, the CLI is orders or > > magnitude more versatile & powerful than the GUI. You'll need to back > > this statement up I'm afraid :) > > I was suggesting that there is no reason why the CLI should be less > powerful than the GUI. I would be hard pressed to find an example. I IMHO the CLI is _more_ powerful than a GUI. It certainly has an increased learning curve though. > can, however, point to a couple of hybred systems. The terms themselves can be a bit narrow. Is something based on ncurses a CLI or a GUI? I'd say ncurses is a clunky GUI but it isn't what most people think of when they say GUI. There are numerous other cases where the terms break down I think. > A/UX and MPW attached a GUI to each command (ie. Commando). In the case > of A/UX, this included most (if not all) of the unix tools. I haven't experienced those systems but I'm not sure it sounds like an improvement :) > I would argue that a GUI depends upon recognition: may it be icons, > spatial positions, or of something's place in the hierarchy. On the > otherhand, CLIs depend upon recall. In otherwords, a GUI doesn't Yeah, that's fair enough. > necessarily narrow down user choices -- it simply does so because most > hUI designers think that simplicity implies ease of use. Agreed. I'm certain systems far better than our current GUIs and CLIs will appear oneday. I just think that so far we've been farily constrained in what we have created. I suspect our postions aren't so far apart ;) Cheers, Rob -- Robert Brockway B.Sc. email: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org, zzbrock at uqconnect.net Linux counter project ID #16440 (http://counter.li.org) "The earth is but one country and mankind its citizens" -Baha'u'llah -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From wmcgilvery-6d3DWWOeJtE at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 9 18:43:40 2003 From: wmcgilvery-6d3DWWOeJtE at public.gmane.org (Wil McGilvery) Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2003 13:43:40 -0500 Subject: WinFax equivalent on Linux Message-ID: <65B7B304AA3DE147BBD33938FE204E284A93F4@lynchmail.lynch.msft> Try http://www.hylafax.org/ Regards, Wil McGilvery Manager Lynch Digital Media Inc 416-744-7949 416-716-3964 (cell) 1-866-314-4678 416-744-0406? FAX www.LynchDigital.com -----Original Message----- From: Anton Markov [mailto:anton-F0u+EriZ6ihBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org] Sent: Saturday, November 08, 2003 8:41 PM To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Subject: [TLUG]: WinFax equivalent on Linux Is there an equivalent to WinFax for Linux? Specifically the features I am looking for are: - Work under both Linux and Windose - Basic auto-receive and (print-to) sending - Address book - Send/receive log (stores/manages massages) - Ability to share all the above features on a network (client/server style) WinFax is a major obsticle in migrating our company's two desktops to Linux, so any help will be greatly appreciated. Thanks. -- Anton Markov -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 8 22:06:42 2003 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter L. Peres) Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2003 00:06:42 +0200 (IST) Subject: linux = impossible? (no offense meant!) In-Reply-To: References: <20031108151915.10151.qmail@mail.com> <20031108104744.327e1f78.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: > But most existing Linux users are going to reject that route at the end > of the day because they are accustomed to making those decisions and > even experimenting. Anything else would be like having a unix shell, > and a straight jacket. I do not understand why people expect a professional tool to feel and handle like a $10 electric screwdriver. If demand exists then a GUI that implements that functionality can be made (and this is already so in Suse, Red Hat, Mandrake, and others). There are application reviews, opinions, screenshots, everything. Whoever needs to ask has not read enough on the web imho. While asking friends opinions is nice, it is not a replacement for doing your homework. You do shop around when preparing to buy payware for Windows, don't you ? Why not for linux apps ? > There is another problem with unix, which I think is less legitimate: > people are scared of the command line and following instructions. Most > people simply want to click a button and be done with it. It doesn't People are not supposed to know 2000 commands by heart or read manpages ad absurdum (my favorite description of unix is 4-letter commands with 100-page apologies). Whenever someone cannot achieve that knowledge someone more knowledgeable builds a menu system for him/her so it becomes manageable. There is no shortage of tools for doing that, or of people willing to do it. It even works for command line (menus). Again, imho, you expect a professional quality os to have the look & feel of a $10 electric screwdriver. If you really want that, ask around and you will likely get it. And the bs-itters who go around telling horror stories about linux had better pack up. There *is* a way to do everything, whining about its not being there is not one of them. Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 8 22:32:07 2003 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter L. Peres) Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2003 00:32:07 +0200 (IST) Subject: linux = impossible? (no offense meant!) In-Reply-To: <20031108213150.GA47101-Ko7VQgJ6otXK2ngFqW3eKNllqMFDOoLF@public.gmane.org> References: <20031108151915.10151.qmail@mail.com> <20031108104744.327e1f78.joehill@sympatico.ca> <3FAD2ECD.30503@sympatico.ca> <20031108213150.GA47101@pluto.bsdwebhosting.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 8 Nov 2003, Byron Desnoyers Winmill wrote: > On Sat, Nov 08, 2003 at 12:58:37PM -0500, David J Patrick wrote: > > Well clearly you have never seen a decent package manager in action. > > It doesn't matter if the best package manager in the world is easier to > use than Windows installation programs. It simply won't fly if it > doesn't fit people perceptions of how things should be done. These > days, people think you obtain a piece of software (either in a store or > by downloading it) and run an installer. That will never work under > Linux because of dependencies. Wrong. It is possible to make an installer call the local package manager. I have done this (even with slackware). It works. Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 8 22:14:12 2003 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter L. Peres) Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2003 00:14:12 +0200 (IST) Subject: Word .DOC viewer for Mozilla In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 8 Nov 2003, Justin Zygmont wrote: > Interesting, I always knew MS went to great lengths to do things like > this. So this means that opening a word 2000 .doc file won't show up > properly with say word 97? then why can't a recent version of OO read a > word 2000 .doc file? I don't know what you know, but I just recently went through some acrobatics to make a table formatted in W97 (?) look right in XP and later in OO. Both changes required me to practically rewrite the table (on four columns in 4 different markup types). When I stopped puking after this I printed the table and it came out skewed (from XP). So I dropped everything else and made it work in OO only and there it stands. Incidentally OO old version vs. OO new version do not have this problem. Anything beyond basic paragraph formatting in Word before 97 can look really ugly in Word/XP. Otoh groff text composed in 1995 typesets perfectly till now ;-). So do tables in tex ;-) ;-) ;-) Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 8 22:30:20 2003 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter L. Peres) Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2003 00:30:20 +0200 (IST) Subject: dos to unix CR/LF conversion? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: #!/bin/bash /usr/local/bin/u2d 755 awk '/\r$/ {printf("%s\n",$0);next;} {printf("%s\r\n",$0);next;}' #!/bin/bash /usr/local/bin/d2u 755 tr -d '\r\032' Use as filters, as in: myfile.changed do *not* use the same file for input and output. The input file will be deleted if you do this. Peter On Sat, 8 Nov 2003, Max Blanco wrote: > > Kevin/All, > > you were right. My mac/ie5 converted linefeeds to ^m, instead of \r. > I can't see straight anymore between '\n', '\r', "^M", "^L", C, perl, tr, > unix, dos, mac, dog, cat. Arrgh. > > If any of you desire to get my hack/fix of the dos2unix source code, email > me offlist. If any of you would like to post a "tr" shell script that I > can put into my /usr/local/bin directory, I'd be more than willing to copy > it. > > cheers, > max. > > > On Sat, 8 Nov 2003, Kevin Cozens wrote: > > > At 02:55 PM 11/08/2003 -0500, max wrote: > > >Unfortunately, at first glance, it seems to delete ^m but doesn't seem to > > >insert ^r? That's what happened to my text file. That's just a minor > > >tweak to the source code, though. > > > > Conversion of a text file from DOS to *nix is just a matter of deleting ^m. > > If your text file has lines that end in ^m only then it is not a DOS text > > file but possibly one from a Mac or other OS. This is where the 'tr' > > command can be useful. It would allow you to change all ^m to ^r. > > > > > > Cheers! > > > > Kevin. (http://www.interlog.com/~kcozens/) > > > > Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172 |"What are we going to do today, Borg?" > > E-mail:kcozens at interlog dot com|"Same thing we always do, Pinkutus: > > Packet:ve3syb at ve3yra.#con.on.ca.na| Try to assimilate the world!" > > #include | -Pinkutus & the Borg > > > > -- > > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > > > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jemcinto-cpI+UMyWUv+w5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 9 11:33:12 2003 From: jemcinto-cpI+UMyWUv+w5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org (James McIntosh) Date: Sun, 09 Nov 2003 11:33:12 Subject: Word .DOC viewer for Mozilla In-Reply-To: <3FAE30C0.3080801-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <3.0.6.16.20031108180353.26078e4e@mail.look.ca> <3.0.6.16.20031108180353.26078e4e@mail.look.ca> <3FAE30C0.3080801@rogers.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20031109113312.258f6ff4@mail.look.ca> At 07:19 AM 11/9/03 -0500, James Knott wrote: >As I recall, there was one point where if an office upgraded(?) one user >to the later version of Word, all had to upgrade, because the later >version would only write in a format that the earlier versions couldn't >read. Microsoft Word can be used to write in a variety of formats, such as RTF (Rich Text Format). The later version may default to a format that the earlier versions couldn't read, but that is a matter of educating the users to go out of their way to save the document in a format which can be read by their co-workers. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jemcinto-cpI+UMyWUv+w5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 9 16:41:31 2003 From: jemcinto-cpI+UMyWUv+w5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org (James McIntosh) Date: Sun, 09 Nov 2003 16:41:31 Subject: dos to unix CR/LF conversion? In-Reply-To: References: <3FAE2FA6.9050100@rogers.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20031109164131.20c74d98@mail.look.ca> At 11:35 AM 11/9/03 -0500, Henry Spencer wrote: >On Sun, 9 Nov 2003, James Knott wrote: >> > Unix end-of-line is ASCII LF = linefeed = newline = \n = \012 = ^J. ... >> >> You should indicate you're using octal for \012. > >The backslash-digits notation is always octal. However, I should have >mentioned that, for the benefit of newcomers. Yes and no. It's slightly more complex than that. When the backslash is followed immediately by zero, then it is octal. When the backslash is followed immediately by a digit other than zero, or a letter A to F, or a to f, then it is hexadecimal. For example: \070 is octal. \70 is hexadecimal \ae is hexadecimal \AE is hexadecimal \2B is hexadecimal The \ can be considered to be a modal transition code (escape code), and the 0 can be considered to be a modal subtransitional code (secondary-level escape code). -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 9 22:01:00 2003 From: henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org (Henry Spencer) Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2003 17:01:00 -0500 (EST) Subject: Word .DOC viewer for Mozilla In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 9 Nov 2003, Peter L. Peres wrote: > ...Otoh groff text composed in 1995 typesets perfectly till now ;-). So does my (troff/tbl/eqn) thesis, composed in 1981... Henry Spencer henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From blsonne-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 9 22:09:03 2003 From: blsonne-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Byron Sonne) Date: Sun, 09 Nov 2003 17:09:03 -0500 Subject: Word .DOC viewer for Mozilla In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20031109113312.258f6ff4-BF7s+LSmFG27ALip+uieHQ@public.gmane.org> References: <3.0.6.16.20031108180353.26078e4e@mail.look.ca> <3.0.6.16.20031108180353.26078e4e@mail.look.ca> <3.0.6.16.20031109113312.258f6ff4@mail.look.ca> Message-ID: <3FAEBAFF.5090604@rogers.com> > but that is a matter of educating the users to go out of > their way to save the document in a format which can be read by their > co-workers. Well now, if people became that reasonable I probably would've suspected myself of taking ill first ;) -- For good, return good. For evil, return justice. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 9 22:12:35 2003 From: henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org (Henry Spencer) Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2003 17:12:35 -0500 (EST) Subject: dos to unix CR/LF conversion? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20031109164131.20c74d98-BF7s+LSmFG27ALip+uieHQ@public.gmane.org> References: <3.0.6.16.20031109164131.20c74d98@mail.look.ca> Message-ID: On Sun, 9 Nov 2003, James McIntosh wrote: > >> You should indicate you're using octal for \012. > >The backslash-digits notation is always octal. However, I should have > >mentioned that, for the benefit of newcomers. > > When the backslash is followed immediately by zero, then it is octal. > When the backslash is followed immediately by a digit other than zero, or a > letter A to F, or a to f, then it is hexadecimal. Not in C it's not, nor in most of the other Unix/Linux languages. Backslash followed by digits is *always* octal, no exceptions. To get hex, e.g. hex "ae", you have to say "\xae". > For example: > \070 is octal. Correct. > \70 is hexadecimal Nope. C printf("\070 \70\n") prints "8 8". > \ae is hexadecimal > \AE is hexadecimal Nope. The first is \a ("audible alert", ASCII BEL) followed by 'e'; the second gives a compiler warning message ("unknown escape sequence") and prints an 'A' and an 'E'. > \2B is hexadecimal Nope, it's a \002 -- ASCII STX, ^B -- followed by a 'B'. Henry Spencer henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From roulton623-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 10 00:44:30 2003 From: roulton623-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Stephen Oulton) Date: 09 Nov 2003 19:44:30 -0500 Subject: Thanks Message-ID: <1068425065.2189.7.camel@CPE0080c6f2a89b-CM00003940c461.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com> I would like to say thanks to the people who helped me with my problem of my computer slowing down after a few minutes of use. I tried a few of the commands that were given to me and it seems that I did have a heat problem as was suggested. I am also great full for the other suggestions. I have learned how to find out what is running in the background. That information will no doubt come in handy in the future. Thanks again Stephen Oulton -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From kcozens-qazKcTl6WRFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 10 00:46:45 2003 From: kcozens-qazKcTl6WRFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Kevin Cozens) Date: Sun, 09 Nov 2003 19:46:45 -0500 Subject: Time for a new Linux In-Reply-To: <20031108190927.331FE44ED-xzRQuAxiFLNWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org> References: <5.2.0.9.0.20031107212840.09aa9008@localhost> <001701c3a429$47723fb0$0301a8c0@amazon> <001701c3a429$47723fb0$0301a8c0@amazon> <5.2.0.9.0.20031107212840.09aa9008@localhost> <20031108190927.331FE44ED@cbbrowne.com> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20031108204351.023091e0@mail.interlog.com> At 02:09 PM 11/08/2003 -0500, cbbrowne wrote: >Mind you, the notion of "runlevels" is a lot less useful than it used to >be. It's sensible enough to have a "single user mode" for really >oddball setup issues, but the differences between levels 2, 3, 4, and 5 >are pretty irrelevant save on big multiuser boxes, and in those cases, >you don't change runlevels much because you'd get tarred and feathered >by the users. Most of the time having different runlevels available is not needed. They can come in handy at times though when they may not be as useful as they once were. In the case of RedHat, there is little distinction between runlevels 2 and 3. The default set up tends to start some daemons in level 2 that should only be active in level 3. In general, I only use run level 5. Occasionally, when updating the system (or X in particular), I need to switch to run level 3 (everything running except X) when something happens to X which prevents me from logging in or even having the X log in screen available. The number of run levels is probably more than is needed most of the time anyway these days. I can see run levels 1 (single user mode?), 2 (no network), 3 (network, but no X), and 5 (network, and X). I forget what level 4 was meant to be used for historically but it is probably not needed in this day and age. Run levels can be a help in administering a machine (particularly in cases when difficulties arise) but to the average user, they are probably irrelevant. Cheers! Kevin. (http://www.interlog.com/~kcozens/) Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172 |"What are we going to do today, Borg?" E-mail:kcozens at interlog dot com|"Same thing we always do, Pinkutus: Packet:ve3syb at ve3yra.#con.on.ca.na| Try to assimilate the world!" #include | -Pinkutus & the Borg -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jemcinto-cpI+UMyWUv+w5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 9 19:55:09 2003 From: jemcinto-cpI+UMyWUv+w5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org (James McIntosh) Date: Sun, 09 Nov 2003 19:55:09 Subject: dos to unix CR/LF conversion? In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.16.20031109164131.20c74d98@mail.look.ca> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20031109195509.2f6794aa@mail.look.ca> I'm sorry for my mistakes. You're right. At 05:12 PM 11/9/03 -0500, Henry Spencer wrote: >On Sun, 9 Nov 2003, James McIntosh wrote: >> >> You should indicate you're using octal for \012. >> >The backslash-digits notation is always octal. However, I should have >> >mentioned that, for the benefit of newcomers. >> >> When the backslash is followed immediately by zero, then it is octal. >> When the backslash is followed immediately by a digit other than zero, or a >> letter A to F, or a to f, then it is hexadecimal. > >Not in C it's not, nor in most of the other Unix/Linux languages. >Backslash followed by digits is *always* octal, no exceptions. To >get hex, e.g. hex "ae", you have to say "\xae". > >> For example: >> \070 is octal. > >Correct. > >> \70 is hexadecimal > >Nope. C printf("\070 \70\n") prints "8 8". > >> \ae is hexadecimal >> \AE is hexadecimal > >Nope. The first is \a ("audible alert", ASCII BEL) followed by 'e'; the >second gives a compiler warning message ("unknown escape sequence") and >prints an 'A' and an 'E'. > >> \2B is hexadecimal > >Nope, it's a \002 -- ASCII STX, ^B -- followed by a 'B'. > > Henry Spencer > henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org JEM -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 10 01:28:19 2003 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Sun, 09 Nov 2003 20:28:19 -0500 Subject: dos to unix CR/LF conversion? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3FAEE9B3.2090102@rogers.com> Peter L. Peres wrote: > #!/bin/bash /usr/local/bin/u2d 755 > awk '/\r$/ {printf("%s\n",$0);next;} {printf("%s\r\n",$0);next;}' > > #!/bin/bash /usr/local/bin/d2u 755 > tr -d '\r\032' > > Use as filters, as in: > > myfile.changed > > do *not* use the same file for input and output. The input file will be > deleted if you do this. Several years ago, I used to work on a system based on a Data General Nova 800. In the monitor program, the command to copy a file was: $XFER source_file>dest_file The command to delete a file was: $XFER source_file> This meant that accidently hitting the Enter key too soon, would result in deleting a file you intended to copy! -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 10 01:35:38 2003 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Sun, 09 Nov 2003 20:35:38 -0500 Subject: dos to unix CR/LF conversion? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3FAEEB6A.1030404@rogers.com> Henry Spencer wrote: >>Again with the old mechanical devices, it was often used to control the >>tape punch, though that was not the only use. According to my trusty >>ASCII and Baudot card, from back in my tech days, it was called Device >>Control 2 (DC2). > > > It was DC1 and DC3 that usually controlled the tape hardware, at least on > the equipment I used. But there may have been other variations. DC1 & DC3 were used to control the tape reader and DC2 & DC4, the tape punch. There were some Teletypes that had remote control punches, as well as readers. Incidentally, I had an ASR 35 connected to my first computer, an IMSAI 8080. I had it configured so that reading a byte from the UART would cause the reader to advance another character. Those old machines had something called a "stunt box", which could detect various character combinations and either perform some mechanical funtion or operate a switch. Some of them were quite complex. Many years ago, I used to overhaul Teletype equipment. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 10 04:53:47 2003 From: phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org (Peter Hiscocks) Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2003 23:53:47 -0500 Subject: All across Toronto.. Message-ID: <20031109235347.B29334@ee.ryerson.ca> Sunday evening, and yet another occasion to uncrash my wife's Windows machine. Much cursing and angst as files are lost and the machine has to be rebooted. Just think, all across Toronto, it's Sunday evening and people are getting back to work, getting ready for the coming week. And all across Toronto, they are dealing with locked-up desktops, the blue screen of death and machines that are totally bogged down running three processes. Bad karma is in the air... Peter -- Peter D. Hiscocks Department of Electrical and Computer Engineering Ryerson University, 350 Victoria Street, Toronto, Ontario, M5B 2K3, Canada Phone: (416) 979-5000 Ext 6109 Fax: (416) 979-5280 Email: phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org URL: http://www.ee.ryerson.ca/~phiscock -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From blanco-S8qYAnHmZTt34ZA5RureAJ4VBq8PJc8F at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 10 06:43:44 2003 From: blanco-S8qYAnHmZTt34ZA5RureAJ4VBq8PJc8F at public.gmane.org (Max Blanco) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 01:43:44 -0500 (EST) Subject: All across Toronto.. In-Reply-To: <20031109235347.B29334-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w@public.gmane.org> References: <20031109235347.B29334@ee.ryerson.ca> Message-ID: On Sun, 9 Nov 2003, Peter Hiscocks wrote: > > Sunday evening, and yet another occasion to uncrash my wife's Windows > machine. Much cursing and angst as files are lost and the machine has to be > rebooted. > > Just think, all across Toronto, it's Sunday evening and people are getting > back to work, getting ready for the coming week. And all across Toronto, > they are dealing with locked-up desktops, the blue screen of death and > machines that are totally bogged down running three processes. > > Bad karma is in the air... > > Peter > Yeah, but someone told me that David Miller uses linux, so it can't be all bad. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 10 06:48:14 2003 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 01:48:14 -0500 Subject: All across Toronto.. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3FAF34AE.20101@alteeve.com> Gotta vote tomorrow everyone!! Madison Max Blanco wrote: > On Sun, 9 Nov 2003, Peter Hiscocks wrote: > > >>Sunday evening, and yet another occasion to uncrash my wife's Windows >>machine. Much cursing and angst as files are lost and the machine has to be >>rebooted. >> >>Just think, all across Toronto, it's Sunday evening and people are getting >>back to work, getting ready for the coming week. And all across Toronto, >>they are dealing with locked-up desktops, the blue screen of death and >>machines that are totally bogged down running three processes. >> >>Bad karma is in the air... >> >>Peter >> > > > Yeah, but someone told me that David Miller uses linux, > so it can't be all bad. > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From blsonne-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 10 08:05:00 2003 From: blsonne-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Byron Sonne) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 03:05:00 -0500 Subject: linux = impossible? (no offense meant!) In-Reply-To: References: <20031108151915.10151.qmail@mail.com> <20031108104744.327e1f78.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <3FAF46AC.4010007@rogers.com> > There *is* a way to do everything, whining > about its not being there is not one of them. Feh... you must live in some magical world where people think for themselves and don't mind expending effort to better themselves and others... all while pursuing arguably better courses of action with a longer term perspective... wait a second... where do I sign up? ;) -- For good, return good. For evil, return justice. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From gstrom-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 10 08:09:52 2003 From: gstrom-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org (Glen Strom) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 03:09:52 -0500 Subject: All across Toronto.. In-Reply-To: References: <20031109235347.B29334@ee.ryerson.ca> Message-ID: <20031110030952.0f1a72db.gstrom@eol.ca> On Mon, 10 Nov 2003 01:43:44 -0500 (EST) Max Blanco wrote: > Yeah, but someone told me that David Miller uses linux, > so it can't be all bad. > Not according to netcraft. The site www.millerformayor.ca is running Microsoft-IIS/5.0 on Windows 2000. -- Glen Strom gstrom-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 10 11:38:04 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 06:38:04 -0500 Subject: MS's "Vision" vs. Linux Message-ID: <20031110063804.5b57ab77.joehill@sympatico.ca> Nothing *really* new for anyone who's read or is familiar with the concept of The Cathedral and the Bazaar, but makes some good points about how quickly Linux has progressed as a desktop OS vs. Windows, with *screenshots*! LOL! Sorry for the long link... http://www.madpenguin.org/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=628&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0 Another piece in the argument that Red Hat's CEO couldn't find his ass with a map and a flashlight. -- JoeHill Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ There's only one everything. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From scotta-cpI+UMyWUv9BDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 10 11:41:22 2003 From: scotta-cpI+UMyWUv9BDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Scott Allen) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 06:41:22 -0500 Subject: dos to unix CR/LF conversion? In-Reply-To: <3FAEE9B3.2090102-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org>; from james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org on Sun, Nov 09, 2003 at 20:28:19 -0500 References: <3FAEE9B3.2090102@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20031110114122.GC3120@localhost> On Sun Nov 09,2003 08:28:19 PM James Knott wrote: > Several years ago, I used to work on a system based on a Data General > Nova 800. In the monitor program, the command to copy a file was: > > $XFER source_file>dest_file > > The command to delete a file was: > > $XFER source_file> > > This meant that accidently hitting the Enter key too soon, would > result in deleting a file you intended to copy! Well, *nix can be almost as bad. If you intend to copy files 'a' and 'b' into directory 'dir', you can enter: cp a b dir But, if you accidentally press Enter before entering dir, file 'a' will be copied as file 'b', essentially deleting the original file 'b'. (Yes, I know that you can set up an alias so that you will be prompted about overwrites). -- ** Scott Allen scotta-cpI+UMyWUv9BDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org ** ** Toronto, Ontario, Canada ** -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 10 11:55:44 2003 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 06:55:44 -0500 Subject: All across Toronto.. In-Reply-To: <20031109235347.B29334-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w@public.gmane.org> References: <20031109235347.B29334@ee.ryerson.ca> Message-ID: <3FAF7CC0.6030102@rogers.com> Peter Hiscocks wrote: > Sunday evening, and yet another occasion to uncrash my wife's Windows > machine. Much cursing and angst as files are lost and the machine has to be > rebooted. > > Just think, all across Toronto, it's Sunday evening and people are getting > back to work, getting ready for the coming week. And all across Toronto, > they are dealing with locked-up desktops, the blue screen of death and > machines that are totally bogged down running three processes. > > Bad karma is in the air... > > Peter I spent yesterday afternoon trying to resolve a problem with Outlook Express for a friend. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 10 11:57:44 2003 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 06:57:44 -0500 Subject: All across Toronto.. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3FAF7D38.8040101@rogers.com> Max Blanco wrote: > On Sun, 9 Nov 2003, Peter Hiscocks wrote: > > >>Sunday evening, and yet another occasion to uncrash my wife's Windows >>machine. Much cursing and angst as files are lost and the machine has to be >>rebooted. >> >>Just think, all across Toronto, it's Sunday evening and people are getting >>back to work, getting ready for the coming week. And all across Toronto, >>they are dealing with locked-up desktops, the blue screen of death and >>machines that are totally bogged down running three processes. >> >>Bad karma is in the air... >> >>Peter >> > > > Yeah, but someone told me that David Miller uses linux, > so it can't be all bad. I suppose it's possible for a politician to have some redeeming qualities, though I don't know if that's enough to counter him being NDP. ;-) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From IlyaPalagin-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 10 09:39:56 2003 From: IlyaPalagin-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Ilya Palagin) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 09:39:56 +0000 Subject: All across Toronto.. In-Reply-To: <3FAF7CC0.6030102-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <20031109235347.B29334@ee.ryerson.ca> <3FAF7CC0.6030102@rogers.com> Message-ID: <3FAF5CEC.3000402@rogers.com> James Knott wrote: > Peter Hiscocks wrote: > >> Sunday evening, and yet another occasion to uncrash my wife's Windows >> machine. Much cursing and angst as files are lost and the machine has >> to be >> rebooted. >> >> Just think, all across Toronto, it's Sunday evening and people are >> getting >> back to work, getting ready for the coming week. And all across Toronto, >> they are dealing with locked-up desktops, the blue screen of death and >> machines that are totally bogged down running three processes. >> >> Bad karma is in the air... >> >> Peter > > > I spent yesterday afternoon trying to resolve a problem with Outlook > Express for a friend. Last week I've seen the ugliest BSOD in w2k. The was a modem connected a month ago, but driver wasn't installed (by whatever reason). As usually, w2k announced a new device upon user login. But when this user turned his computer on and didn't log in immediately, half an hour later he found BSOD with exception in pnp module. Recommendation: don't use alternative operating systems, made by Microsoft Corp., in your daily tasks. Not because they are bad, but because they are still in alpha development stage. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 10 14:40:19 2003 From: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 09:40:19 -0500 (EST) Subject: All across Toronto.. In-Reply-To: <3FAF7CC0.6030102-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <20031109235347.B29334@ee.ryerson.ca> <3FAF7CC0.6030102@rogers.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 10 Nov 2003, James Knott wrote: > I spent yesterday afternoon trying to resolve a problem with Outlook > Express for a friend. I bet it was fun too. Back when I was a university student I would help friends with computer problems. Before long I realised that I chose not to use windows to avoid so many of those problems but were winding up fixing them on other peoples windows boxes. When I told them that unix didn't have these problems they would always say "But windows is so easy". To which I would always counter "If it is so easy why did I need to come over & fix it for you?" :) Anyway, I stopped doing computer fixes for free. Not because I am uncharitable (in actuality I have given thousands of hours to volunteer efforts and charities) but because it sets computing apart. I don't ask my mechanic friends to fix the car for free, and I don't ask my doctor friends to give me free medical advice but for some reason many people think computer skills, developed over a period of many years, should be given away for free. If the skills aren't worth anything then why do they need us so much? This does lead me back to being on topic... :) By fixing windows problems for other people, and thus shielding them from how bad windows really can be to manage, we are infact perpetuating the myth that it is easy to use. People look over your shoulder as you tap away from an hour or two but don't realise the tricks and strategies you might have used to fix the problem or the stress you experienced because you had all of their (unbacked up) data in your hands. If the whole thing comes crashing down and they lose data you can bet they won't accept an explanation that it was "windows fault". Now, we're all free to give away our skills as we chose, but I've often wondered why computer skills are valued so poorly by many people that they expect their computer literate friends to give up their time and do these things for free when no other class of professional is expected to do this. Cheers, Rob -- Robert Brockway B.Sc. email: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org, zzbrock at uqconnect.net Linux counter project ID #16440 (http://counter.li.org) "The earth is but one country and mankind its citizens" -Baha'u'llah -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From linuxnewbie-pCGr9Sw2R8Y at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 10 15:34:34 2003 From: linuxnewbie-pCGr9Sw2R8Y at public.gmane.org (ln @post.com) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 10:34:34 -0500 Subject: running mpeg files Message-ID: <20031110153435.20436.qmail@mail.com> how do I/what app do I need to view mpeg files? I'm running RH8. -peter -- __________________________________________________________ Sign-up for your own personalized E-mail at Mail.com http://www.mail.com/?sr=signup Search Smarter - get the new eXact Search Bar for free! http://www.exactsearchbar.com/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 10 15:34:51 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 10:34:51 -0500 Subject: running mpeg files In-Reply-To: <20031110153435.20436.qmail-O5WfVfzUwx8@public.gmane.org> References: <20031110153435.20436.qmail@mail.com> Message-ID: <20031110103451.79e8e827.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Mon, 10 Nov 2003 10:34:34 -0500 "ln @post.com" uttered: > how do I/what app do I need to view mpeg files? I'm running RH8. mplayer will do it for ya. -- JoeHill Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ We're all in this alone. -- Lily Tomlin -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 10 15:51:45 2003 From: henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org (Henry Spencer) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 10:51:45 -0500 (EST) Subject: All across Toronto.. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 10 Nov 2003, Robert Brockway wrote: > Now, we're all free to give away our skills as we chose, but I've often > wondered why computer skills are valued so poorly by many people that they > expect their computer literate friends to give up their time and do these > things for free when no other class of professional is expected to do > this. Actually, people like doctors and lawyers get asked for free advice all the time. They're just better at saying "no". :-) Henry Spencer henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lists-Gb8Tj4xcA4YgsBAKwltoeQ at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 10 16:24:17 2003 From: lists-Gb8Tj4xcA4YgsBAKwltoeQ at public.gmane.org (Byron Q. Desnoyers Winmill) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 11:24:17 -0500 (EST) Subject: All across Toronto.. In-Reply-To: References: <20031109235347.B29334@ee.ryerson.ca> <3FAF7CC0.6030102@rogers.com> Message-ID: My solution was easier: I forgot how to use Windows. People would come and ask for free help, and I would look at them and claim that I haven't used it for the better part of a decade and surely wouldn't be very good at fixing it. A few of them have since converted to Linux, perhaps for the free labour. ;-) Life is good when you don't have to see every crashed Windows box on the planet. But your point about the value of your labour, vs. that of a doctor or a mechanic, is an excellent one. Byron. On Mon, 10 Nov 2003, Robert Brockway wrote: > Anyway, I stopped doing computer fixes for free. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From c.f.a.johnson-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 10 17:39:35 2003 From: c.f.a.johnson-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Chris F.A. Johnson) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 12:39:35 -0500 (EST) Subject: MS's "Vision" vs. Linux In-Reply-To: <20031110063804.5b57ab77.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <20031110063804.5b57ab77.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: On Mon, 10 Nov 2003, JoeHill wrote: > > Nothing *really* new for anyone who's read or is familiar with the > concept of The Cathedral and the Bazaar, but makes some good points > about how quickly Linux has progressed as a desktop OS vs. Windows, with > *screenshots*! LOL! > > Sorry for the long link... Don't be; use tinyurl.com. > http://www.madpenguin.org/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=628&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0 -- Chris F.A. Johnson ================================================================= cfaj-uVmiyxGBW52XDw4h08c5KA at public.gmane.org http://cfaj.freeshell.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 10 17:40:33 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 12:40:33 -0500 Subject: MS's "Vision" vs. Linux In-Reply-To: References: <20031110063804.5b57ab77.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <20031110124033.71c189f2.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Mon, 10 Nov 2003 12:39:35 -0500 (EST) "Chris F.A. Johnson" uttered: > > Don't be; use tinyurl.com. > > > http://www.madpenguin.org/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=628&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0 > > Nice! Thanks! -- JoeHill Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ If a man has a strong faith he can indulge in the luxury of skepticism. -- Friedrich Nietzsche -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 9 21:47:00 2003 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter L. Peres) Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2003 23:47:00 +0200 (IST) Subject: Slackware 9.0 default bash aliases In-Reply-To: <20031109015107.GA1391-bi+AKbBUZKZeoWH0uzbU5w@public.gmane.org> References: <20031108131754.GA2181@localhost> <20031109015107.GA1391@localhost> Message-ID: /etc/inputrc ~/.profile ~/.bashrc Peter On Sat, 8 Nov 2003, Scott Allen wrote: > > On Sat Nov 08,2003 09:00:06 AM Peter L. Peres wrote: > > > > afair it's /etc/profile also /etc/profile.d/ > > That's what I would have thought, but if this is where the default > aliases are being set, I can't figure it out. Perhaps you could point > it out to me? > > here is a directory listing of /etc/profile.d/ > > # ls -a -l /etc/profile.d > total 24 > drwxr-xr-x 2 root root 4096 Oct 21 2002 ./ > drwxr-xr-x 23 root root 4096 Nov 6 10:45 ../ > -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 227 Mar 9 2003 lang.csh* > -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 225 Mar 9 2003 lang.sh* > -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 50 Oct 21 2002 t1lib.csh* > -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 63 Oct 21 2002 t1lib.sh* > > No sign of any alias commands in any of these. > > And here is the entire contentes of file /etc/profile > > ===================================================================== > # cat /etc/profile > # /etc/profile: This file contains system-wide defaults used by > # all Bourne (and related) shells. > > # Set the values for some environment variables: > export MINICOM="-c on" > export MANPATH=/usr/local/man:/usr/man:/usr/X11R6/man > export HOSTNAME="`cat /etc/HOSTNAME`" > export LESSOPEN="|lesspipe.sh %s" > export LESS="-M" > > # If the user doesn't have a .inputrc, use the one in /etc. > if [ ! -r "$HOME/.inputrc" ]; then > export INPUTRC=/etc/inputrc > fi > > # Set the default system $PATH: > PATH="/usr/local/bin:/usr/bin:/bin:/usr/X11R6/bin:/usr/games" > > # For root users, ensure that /usr/local/sbin, /usr/sbin, and /sbin are > in > # the $PATH. Some means of connection don't add these by default (sshd > comes > # to mind). > if [ "`id -u`" = "0" ]; then > echo $PATH | grep /usr/local/sbin 1> /dev/null 2> /dev/null > if [ ! $? = 0 ]; then > PATH=/usr/local/sbin:/usr/sbin:/sbin:$PATH > fi > fi > > # I had problems using 'eval tset' instead of 'TERM=', but you might > want to # try it anyway. I think with the right /etc/termcap it would > work great. > # eval `tset -sQ "$TERM"` > if [ "$TERM" = "" -o "$TERM" = "unknown" ]; then > TERM=linux > fi > > # Set ksh93 visual editing mode: > if [ "$SHELL" = "/bin/ksh" ]; then > VISUAL=emacs > # VISUAL=gmacs > # VISUAL=vi > fi > > # Set a default shell prompt: > #PS1='`hostname`:`pwd`# ' > if [ "$SHELL" = "/bin/pdksh" ]; then > PS1='! $ ' > elif [ "$SHELL" = "/bin/ksh" ]; then > PS1='! ${PWD/#$HOME/~}$ ' > elif [ "$SHELL" = "/bin/zsh" ]; then > PS1='%n@%m:%~%# ' > elif [ "$SHELL" = "/bin/ash" ]; then > PS1='$ ' > else > PS1='\u@\h:\w\$ ' > fi > PS2='> ' > export PATH DISPLAY LESS TERM PS1 PS2 > > # Default umask. A umask of 022 prevents new files from being created > group > # and world writable. > umask 022 > > # Set up the LS_COLORS and LS_OPTIONS environment variables for color > ls: > if [ "$SHELL" = "/bin/zsh" ]; then > eval `dircolors -z` > elif [ "$SHELL" = "/bin/ash" ]; then > eval `dircolors -s` > else > eval `dircolors -b` > fi > > # Notify user of incoming mail. This can be overridden in the user's > # local startup file (~/.bash.login or whatever, depending on the shell) > if [ -x /usr/bin/biff ]; then > biff y > fi > > # Append any additional sh scripts found in /etc/profile.d/: > for file in /etc/profile.d/*.sh ; do > if [ -x $file ]; then > . $file > fi > done > > # For non-root users, add the current directory to the search path: > if [ ! "`id -u`" = "0" ]; then > PATH="$PATH:." > fi > ===================================================================== > > > -- > ** Scott Allen scotta-cpI+UMyWUv9BDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org ** > ** Toronto, Ontario, Canada ** > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 10 18:02:55 2003 From: davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (David J Patrick) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 13:02:55 -0500 Subject: MS's "Vision" vs. Linux In-Reply-To: <20031110063804.5b57ab77.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <20031110063804.5b57ab77.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <3FAFD2CF.5060308@sympatico.ca> It's clear from their monopolistic anti-competitive practices that M$s true vision is to be the only 800lb gorilla in the IT jungle. This scares the heck outta me and motivates my ongoing support of the only realistic alternative; linux. ps; does David Miller really use linux ? I'm voting for him (TODAY!) because of his action plan for the Toronto film industry, but if he's actually of the penguin persuasion that would be flipperiffic ! djp -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From dt-hKuJ9UrQZDM at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 10 18:23:43 2003 From: dt-hKuJ9UrQZDM at public.gmane.org (David Tilbrook) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 13:23:43 -0500 Subject: running mpeg files References: <20031110153435.20436.qmail@mail.com> Message-ID: <3FAFD7AE.8E8FADB@qef.com> "ln @post.com" wrote: > > how do I/what app do I need to view mpeg files? I'm running RH8. > > -peter > -- xine does for me. -- dt -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From MichaelGalea-4VtgCsEi+FIybS5Ee8rs3A at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 10 18:37:12 2003 From: MichaelGalea-4VtgCsEi+FIybS5Ee8rs3A at public.gmane.org (Michael Galea) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 13:37:12 -0500 Subject: Time for a new Linux Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org [mailto:cbbrowne at acm.org] > Sent: Saturday, November 08, 2003 2:09 PM > To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > Subject: Re: [TLUG]: Time for a new Linux > > > > I happen to like run levels but that is because I cut my > Unix teeth on > > Interactive Unix, not because of any strong religious > beliefs about it. > > What is better about BSD style init? > > It does feel a bit more "unixy" by virtue of running as scripts; the > "SysV way" is vaguely more "mainframe-like." That being > said, I prefer > the present use of the SysV approach. > > Mind you, the notion of "runlevels" is a lot less useful than > it used to > be. It's sensible enough to have a "single user mode" for really > oddball setup issues, but the differences between levels 2, > 3, 4, and 5 > are pretty irrelevant save on big multiuser boxes, and in those cases, > you don't change runlevels much because you'd get tarred and feathered > by the users. > > What I would like to see is something more along the lines of a > "makefile-based Init," where you define what services depend on what > other services, and can basically run "make" to get everything started > up in suitable order. > > The cool "next step" would be to run "make -j 20" which (with > GNU Make) > would spawn as many as 20 services concurrently, which should speed up > system startup a fair bit over the present approach which > serializes the > startup. > > That would be more like something of a conglomeration of BSD and SysV > init approaches... > -- > If this was helpful, Hi Chris, there is an article on "makefile based init" in the IBM developerWorks Sept issue entitled, "Boot Linux faster - Parallelize Linux system services to improve boot speed". Its what you suggest, only the rub is that you have to evaluate the task dependencies beforehand. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 10 18:39:47 2003 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter L. Peres) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 20:39:47 +0200 (IST) Subject: All across Toronto.. In-Reply-To: References: <20031109235347.B29334@ee.ryerson.ca> <3FAF7CC0.6030102@rogers.com> Message-ID: > Now, we're all free to give away our skills as we chose, but I've often > wondered why computer skills are valued so poorly by many people that they > expect their computer literate friends to give up their time and do these > things for free when no other class of professional is expected to do > this. You have a very valid point. I only wish I'll live long enough to see at least a small percentage of the general population arrive at your conclusion. But I know I won't. Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cdasilva-q6EoVN9bke6w5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 10 19:12:23 2003 From: cdasilva-q6EoVN9bke6w5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org (Clive DaSilva) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 14:12:23 -0500 Subject: All across Toronto.. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3FAFE317.2030902@iprimus.ca> Max Blanco wrote: >On Sun, 9 Nov 2003, Peter Hiscocks wrote: > > > >>Sunday evening, and yet another occasion to uncrash my wife's Windows >>machine. Much cursing and angst as files are lost and the machine has to be >>rebooted. >> >>Just think, all across Toronto, it's Sunday evening and people are getting >>back to work, getting ready for the coming week. And all across Toronto, >>they are dealing with locked-up desktops, the blue screen of death and >>machines that are totally bogged down running three processes. >> >>Bad karma is in the air... >> >>Peter >> >> >> > >Yeah, but someone told me that David Miller uses linux, >so it can't be all bad. > >-- >The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org >TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > > > > Wow ... Good for David. I voted for him away ;) Clive -- Clive DaSilva Home Tel: 416-421-2480 Cell: 416-560-8820 Email: cdasilva-q6EoVN9bke6w5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org Mandrake 9.1 Kernel 2.4.21 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From blsonne-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 10 20:25:49 2003 From: blsonne-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Byron Sonne) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 15:25:49 -0500 Subject: OT: Get out there and vote! In-Reply-To: <3FAF7D38.8040101-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <3FAF7D38.8040101@rogers.com> Message-ID: <3FAFF44D.9030504@rogers.com> > I suppose it's possible for a politician to have some redeeming > qualities Understandably so, but at the municipal level politics are significantly different, and IMHO, a lot more pragmatic since they aren't so many levels removed from the nitty-gritty of how the city, and people/businesses, work. But people are people... Mind you the mayor is only one vote on council and has little or no additional real power if he does not have the backing of council. Collectively speaking your councillor (sp?) is of more actual value as there are more of them, but everybody must indeed play their part. What makes this particular mayoral and council election so important (and I'm skipping over school trustee as I don't know much about that right now) is that in local politics around here it's rare that the incumbent *does not* win. This time, there is *no* incumbent, which means we are effectively electing someone who will, in all probability, be in power for the next 10-15 years. Things (i.e. more specifically people and parties) have changed, or will soon, on all levels of government in this country and we have an excellent opportunity to make this a better place to live. I could mention who I'm voting for, but I would like people, at the very least, to read everything from everyone relevant to their location and act with wisdom. Knowledge is power and as much as I think democracy is effectively tyranny of the majority, I can't think of a more functional system. Regards, Byron -- For good, return good. For evil, return justice. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From mggagne-oUREY1nl/XXQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 10 20:40:22 2003 From: mggagne-oUREY1nl/XXQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Marcel (Free Thinker at Large) Gagne) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 15:40:22 -0500 Subject: All across Toronto -- fixing Windows In-Reply-To: References: <20031109235347.B29334@ee.ryerson.ca> Message-ID: <200311101540.22960.mggagne@salmar.com> Hello all, Yeah, I know. I'm so quiet lately, but this topic is one that is near and dear to my heart. Anyhow, my solution to the whole spending a weekend or evening fixing some family member or friend's computer is the same as it has been for the last 2 years or so. I used to spend a lot of time doing this. As the techie friend or relative, it was invariably my job to rescue them from whatever Windows problem came along -- in the last couple of years that usually meant trashed by viruses. What I do now is tell people, "I'll fix your Windows problem, but I'll fix it my way -- by installing Linux". I usually install Mandrake, for its friendliness factor, and leave them with a nice new OS. Making sure they have an easy to use distro is important -- the "installing software is impossible" discussion being a perfect case in point. Anyhow, after two years of doing this, fully 50% of all my close friends and relatives all run Linux and I'm working on the rest. Everyone is happy and they don't call me with problems. > Life is good when you don't have to see every crashed Windows box on the > planet. Agreed. Linux, properly set up, is no more difficult than Windows. The people whose systems I've converted aren't techies and all of them can surf the web, send email, play music, chat on IM, write letters, and they all do it without Windows. Just my two quatloos worth. Take care out there. -- Marcel (Writer and Free Thinker at Large) Gagn? Note: This massagee wos nat speel or gramer-checkered. Mandatory home page reference - http://www.marcelgagne.com/ Author : "Moving to Linux: Kiss the Blue Screen of Death Goodbye!" Also by Marcel : Linux System Administration, A User's Guide Join the WFTL-LUG : http://www.salmar.com/marcel/wftllugform.html -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 10 21:32:51 2003 From: fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Fraser Campbell) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 16:32:51 -0500 Subject: All across Toronto -- fixing Windows In-Reply-To: <200311101540.22960.mggagne-oUREY1nl/XXQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <20031109235347.B29334@ee.ryerson.ca> <200311101540.22960.mggagne@salmar.com> Message-ID: <200311101632.51781.fraser@wehave.net> On Monday 10 November 2003 15:40, Marcel (Free Thinker at Large) Gagne wrote: > -- in the last couple of years that usually meant trashed by viruses. What > I do now is tell people, "I'll fix your Windows problem, but I'll fix it my > way -- by installing Linux". That's the approach I took with my mum. 66 years old with several years of Windows experience behind her. She was buying a new computer every couple of years because it kept "getting slow" on her ... despite the fact she was always just running Win98. I offered to fix it by installing Linux on her existing computer but she was so convinced that the computer was too slow that she insisted on getting a new computer. I insisted that I would only help her if she ran Linux and let me buy quality hardware. She's been running Debian for quite a while now (not sure if it's been 1 year or 2) and never calls with questions, another bonus is that she no longer emails me viruses anymore. -- Fraser Campbell http://www.wehave.net/ Halton Hills, Ontario, Canada Debian GNU/Linux -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From ckoitz-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 10 16:27:58 2003 From: ckoitz-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Carola Koitz) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 17:27:58 +0100 Subject: Installing Progency Debian References: <20031110063804.5b57ab77.joehill@sympatico.ca> <3FAFD2CF.5060308@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <3FAFBC8E.3060504@istop.com> I have a system on which is already installed Windows 2000, SuSE Professional 8.1, Mandrake 9.1 and Red Hat 9. While installing Progeny Debian the partition table wasn't found and I was asked if I want to create a new one. Is there any way to get also Debian installed without destroying all the data on the drive. It says in the manual "if you encounter this situation, please contact Customer Support" Carola Koitz The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From blsonne-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 10 22:44:50 2003 From: blsonne-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Byron Sonne) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 17:44:50 -0500 Subject: Time for a new Linux In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3FB014E2.40309@rogers.com> > Hi Chris, there is an article on "makefile based init" in the IBM > developerWorks Sept issue entitled, "Boot Linux faster - > Parallelize Linux system services to improve boot speed". Its > what you suggest, only the rub is that you have to evaluate the > task dependencies beforehand. Yeah, but isn't that the kind of thing that could be 'slow' the first time, but lickety-split after the inital run? For instance, as part of the system install (and after appropriate daemon/software installations) a table of all possible dependencies is constructed (perhaps as some kind of tree). This table is then optimized/compiled (and subsequently re-optimized/recompiled) into a file of some kind of intermediate format. This file is then used by the boot process to drive system configuration/behaviour and is represented by the changes that were made. -- For good, return good. For evil, return justice. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 11 00:17:56 2003 From: cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org (cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 19:17:56 -0500 Subject: Time for a new Linux In-Reply-To: Message from "Michael Galea" of "Mon, 10 Nov 2003 13:37:12 EST." References: Message-ID: <20031111001757.2BDAE44BA@cbbrowne.com> > Hi Chris, there is an article on "makefile based init" in the IBM=20 > developerWorks Sept issue entitled, "Boot Linux faster -=20 > Parallelize Linux system services to improve boot speed". Its > what you suggest, only the rub is that you have to evaluate the > task dependencies beforehand. Yes, I have read that article, which is a good one. It's a given that someone has to evaluate task dependancies beforehand; you need to encode that somehow. The Makefile-based init is one approach that uses familiar Unix tools. david parsons (orc), maker of the Mastodon distribution, created a scheme where services declare what they need running, and automatically invoke what services aren't already running, which is good, but doesn't automatically lead to the "make -j 20" approach to multitasking it. -- "aa454","@","freenet.carleton.ca" http://www.ntlug.org/~cbbrowne/linuxxian.html /": \ / ASCII RIBBON CAMPAIGN X AGAINST HTML MAIL / -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From tiliescu-ZdyLq7YhDA8hunQcOVOuvCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 11 00:34:39 2003 From: tiliescu-ZdyLq7YhDA8hunQcOVOuvCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Teodor Iliescu) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 19:34:39 -0500 (EST) Subject: All across Toronto.. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Excellent point Rob! On Mon, 10 Nov 2003, Robert Brockway wrote: > On Mon, 10 Nov 2003, James Knott wrote: > > > I spent yesterday afternoon trying to resolve a problem with Outlook > > Express for a friend. > > I bet it was fun too. > > Back when I was a university student I would help friends with computer > problems. Before long I realized that I chose not to use windows to avoid > so many of those problems but were winding up fixing them on other peoples > windows boxes. When I told them that unix didn't have these problems they > would always say "But windows is so easy". To which I would always > counter "If it is so easy why did I need to come over & fix it for you?" > :) Completely true. Everybody thinks that computers are so easy to fix, especially when it comes to Windows. I mean, I can honestly say that Linux problems are much easier to fix than their Windows' equivalent. Linux is much more verbose too at telling you what the problem is. Additionally you spent time actually fixing/diagnosing the problem as opposed to fighting with the OS. > Anyway, I stopped doing computer fixes for free. Not because I am > uncharitable (in actuality I have given thousands of hours to volunteer > efforts and charities) but because it sets computing apart. I don't ask > my mechanic friends to fix the car for free, and I don't ask my doctor > friends to give me free medical advice but for some reason many people > think computer skills, developed over a period of many years, should be > given away for free. If the skills aren't worth anything then why do they > need us so much? I guess a lot of people don't know what it takes to stay in school, and keep up with all of this IT. I have a friend that I setup a Linux box to do his web serving, and of course port forwarding through his XP box(shudder). Little did I know that he just recently sold his box to a client. I was actually supposed to get $40 for setting up the DSL connection for the client + virii cleanup, but that money is nowhere to be seen. :\ Now why did I spend my time doing something for him when I wasn't even getting anything out of it? I guess it's the last straw for free moochers. You can imagine I installed Redhat 9.0, got latest apache source, compiled it, configure the apache server, copy his website to the document root, and train him how to use sftp to copy the files into the Linux box. Not to mention fiddly with XP's broken ICS, and port forwarding. I got ICS to work, but had to use an external program to do the port forwarding to the linux box. Now what is that, 2-3 hours of my precious time? Well, he paid for web hosting and his own domain, he's on his own now. > This does lead me back to being on topic... :) By fixing windows problems > for other people, and thus shielding them from how bad windows really can > be to manage, we are in fact perpetuating the myth that it is easy to use. > People look over your shoulder as you tap away from an hour or two but > don't realize the tricks and strategies you might have used to fix the > problem or the stress you experienced because you had all of their > (unbacked up) data in your hands. If the whole thing comes crashing down > and they lose data you can bet they won't accept an explanation that it > was "windows fault". Somehow people expect you to always recover their data with Microsoft tools. Try re-installing their Windows when they only have one partition that's NTFS where they keep their data [Ooh!]. I say stick in Knoppix, and you should charge the customer for recovering the data. > Now, we're all free to give away our skills as we chose, but I've often > wondered why computer skills are valued so poorly by many people that they > expect their computer literate friends to give up their time and do these > things for free when no other class of professional is expected to do > this. Rob, you make a rock solid point. All of the training/school we go to, plus the time we spend at home just learning all of this makes our work very valuable. I'm sure these skills will come in handy some day. 8) I'm glad that you brought this point up. It's probably something a lot of us had to endure. > Cheers, > Rob -- Teodor I. http://penguincomputing.iwarp.com GPG key fingerprint : 9AC8 A05C 78AD AD73 91DB CBE4 B644 F402 FBFD 5927 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 11 02:04:42 2003 From: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 21:04:42 -0500 (EST) Subject: All across Toronto -- fixing Windows In-Reply-To: <200311101632.51781.fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org> References: <20031109235347.B29334@ee.ryerson.ca> <200311101540.22960.mggagne@salmar.com> <200311101632.51781.fraser@wehave.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 10 Nov 2003, Fraser Campbell wrote: > I offered to fix it by installing Linux on her existing computer but she was > so convinced that the computer was too slow that she insisted on getting a > new computer. I insisted that I would only help her if she ran Linux and let > me buy quality hardware. She's been running Debian for quite a while now > (not sure if it's been 1 year or 2) and never calls with questions, another > bonus is that she no longer emails me viruses anymore. Before leaving Australia I setup a Linux box for my mother to email me & hit the web if she wishes. She was completely computer illiterate but has had no problems following the instructions I gave her. I used fvwm2 as the window manager & locked the menu down to only the functions she would be using. I ssh in from Canada to do security updates and can remotely admin the box as needed (add new menu items if needed, etc). Far far easier than trying to get her to learn Win98. Cheers, Rob -- Robert Brockway B.Sc. email: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org, zzbrock at uqconnect.net Linux counter project ID #16440 (http://counter.li.org) "The earth is but one country and mankind its citizens" -Baha'u'llah -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From rufmetal-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 11 02:22:17 2003 From: rufmetal-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org (Chris Keelan) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 21:22:17 -0500 Subject: All across Toronto.. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20031110212217.013c9cd0.rufmetal@eol.ca> On Mon, 10 Nov 2003 19:34:39 -0500 (EST) Teodor Iliescu wrote: > > Anyway, I stopped doing computer fixes for free. Not because I am > > uncharitable (in actuality I have given thousands of hours to volunteer > > efforts and charities) but because it sets computing apart. I don't ask > > my mechanic friends to fix the car for free, and I don't ask my doctor > > friends to give me free medical advice but for some reason many people > > think computer skills, developed over a period of many years, should be > > given away for free. If the skills aren't worth anything then why do they > > need us so much? > > I guess a lot of people don't know what it takes to stay in school, and > keep up with all of this IT. That's why I've ordered this: Only people who don't know me think that I'm joking. ~ C P.S. Teo, I bought one for you too! -- gpg pubkey fingerprint: 100E A98E E143 C326 547C A207 A704 F673 8B4E A754 **** Well I thought you beat "The Death of Inevitability" to death --just a little bit! ~ Tragically Hip -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 11 11:39:13 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 06:39:13 -0500 Subject: All across Toronto.. In-Reply-To: References: <20031109235347.B29334@ee.ryerson.ca> <3FAF7CC0.6030102@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20031111063913.1e3cf68f.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Mon, 10 Nov 2003 09:40:19 -0500 (EST) Robert Brockway uttered: > Anyway, I stopped doing computer fixes for free. Not because I am > uncharitable (in actuality I have given thousands of hours to > volunteer efforts and charities) but because it sets computing apart. > I don't ask my mechanic friends to fix the car for free, and I don't > ask my doctor friends to give me free medical advice but for some > reason many people think computer skills, developed over a period of > many years, should be given away for free. If the skills aren't worth > anything then why do they need us so much? Well, it's semi-official, I've incorporated my own little biz to do just these kinds of things, so maybe sometime once I'm all set up you guys can just tell your friends to contact me... ;-) Please, not yet, though, I don't even know how much I'm charging, nor do I even have a PST or GST registration with RevCan, and all that funky business stuff. I think I should have a business plan, before I have a business, no? One thing I want to do though, as part of this "business", is to ever-so-gently promote the switch away from Windows, though in some ways I guess that's shooting myself in the foot! -- JoeHill Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Not every question deserves an answer. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lloyd-fEEwcc3XMu8jODpR/OX0VQ at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 11 11:53:29 2003 From: lloyd-fEEwcc3XMu8jODpR/OX0VQ at public.gmane.org (lloyd-fEEwcc3XMu8jODpR/OX0VQ at public.gmane.org) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 06:53:29 -0500 (EST) Subject: Linbiz In-Reply-To: <20031111063913.1e3cf68f.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <20031109235347.B29334@ee.ryerson.ca> <3FAF7CC0.6030102@rogers.com> <20031111063913.1e3cf68f.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <2264.65.48.156.111.1068551609.squirrel@www.foolswisdom.com> Joe Hill may have wrote: > I think I should have a business plan, before I have a business, no? If you do not know where you are going any road will take you there. > One thing I want to do though, as part of this "business", is to > ever-so-gently promote the switch away from Windows, though in some ways > I guess that's shooting myself in the foot! With a shutgun, but for many of your potential customers it will be the moral thing for you to do. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 11 13:39:25 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 08:39:25 -0500 Subject: Great Interview with RMS Message-ID: <20031111083925.50fa7999.joehill@sympatico.ca> I've obviously painted myself as a "zealot" in the eyes of many on this list, so why not take it even further... ;-) Stallman's answers really strike a chord with me, though I have to say I think his stance on Debian is a bit much. Anyway, he has some interesting things to say about DRM, Free Software, and the linkage between software and politics. http://www.ofb.biz/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=260 Can FS users be "apolitical", can we separate politics from our choice of an OS? Or maybe the question should be, can we *risk* being apolitical when our choice of OS is "under attack" so to speak? -- JoeHill Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Happiness is having a scratch for every itch. -- Ogden Nash -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From pmills-5bG9SNWDbRX3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 11 13:56:14 2003 From: pmills-5bG9SNWDbRX3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Phillip Mills) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 08:56:14 -0500 Subject: All across Toronto.. In-Reply-To: <20031111063913.1e3cf68f.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <20031111063913.1e3cf68f.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: On Tuesday, November 11, 2003, at 06:39 AM, JoeHill wrote: > One thing I want to do though, as part of this "business", is to > ever-so-gently promote the switch away from Windows, though in some > ways > I guess that's shooting myself in the foot! Oh, I wouldn't worry about *that* too much. I've seen much supporting evidence for the quote, "Make it idiot-proof, and someone will make a better idiot." :-) I know someone (outside Toronto) who switched from Mac to Windows because there's more 3rd-party support available for Windows. He doesn't actually do anything that's OS-specific. Me: "In three years, did you ever *NEED* 3rd-party support for your Mac?" Him: "No, but I keep hearing about all these viruses breaking systems and I wouldn't know how to fix that." Me: "Have you heard of them attacking anything *EXCEPT* Windows?" Him: "Oh." End result: his Windows system was unusable for most of the summer due to Sobig or one of its friends...and he still doesn't have his printer working. ........................ Phillip Mills Multi-platform software development (416) 224-0714 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From kmastin-PzQIwG9Jn9VAFePFGvp55w at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 11 16:34:59 2003 From: kmastin-PzQIwG9Jn9VAFePFGvp55w at public.gmane.org (Keith Mastin) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 11:34:59 -0500 (EST) Subject: All across Toronto.. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1195.216.138.194.32.1068568499.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> > On Mon, 10 Nov 2003, Robert Brockway wrote: > Now, we're all free to give away our skills as we chose, but I've often > wondered why computer skills are valued so poorly by many people that > they expect their computer literate friends to give up their time and > do these things for free when no other class of professional is expected > to do this. ... but to be fair, we are the type that if we see a friend with a computer problem, we are likely to offer advice and find ourselves fixing not only the 'problem', but the plethora of underlying problems that we see as the cause. Then we start cracking off about what a lousy OS windoh$ is and get to watch the eyes glaze over with lack of understanding (or caring "just fix my email, okay?"). :) -- Keith -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 11 17:17:03 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 12:17:03 -0500 Subject: All across Toronto.. In-Reply-To: <1195.216.138.194.32.1068568499.squirrel-16UnNR4aCrhlws70yGkXPA@public.gmane.org> References: <1195.216.138.194.32.1068568499.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> Message-ID: <20031111121703.439d5b2c.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Tue, 11 Nov 2003 11:34:59 -0500 (EST) "Keith Mastin" uttered: > watch the eyes glaze I find their eyes pop back open, *way* open, when you mention that Linux, for all intents and purposes, has no need for anti-virus software that cost(s) them 50 bucks, and requires daily updates (and then doesn't work). "How can that be?!" Depending on the person, it also helps to tell them they will be putting the screws to a *big corporation*, but maybe that's just the people I hang out with ;-) -- JoeHill Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ He who knows others is wise. He who knows himself is enlightened. -- Lao Tsu -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From kmastin-PzQIwG9Jn9VAFePFGvp55w at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 11 17:18:43 2003 From: kmastin-PzQIwG9Jn9VAFePFGvp55w at public.gmane.org (Keith Mastin) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 12:18:43 -0500 (EST) Subject: linux = impossible? (no offense meant!) In-Reply-To: References: <20031108151915.10151.qmail@mail.com> <20031108104744.327e1f78.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <1313.216.138.194.32.1068571123.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> > There is another problem with unix, which I think is less legitimate: > people are scared of the command line and following instructions. Most > people simply want to click a button and be done with it. It doesn't > matter if typing 'pkg_add some_package' is equivalent, because you > actually have to follow an instruction to do this. By following an > instruction, I mean that the user is doing something other than running > a program in the typical way. (For many years, dragging an icon from a > floppy diskette to the hard drive was the acceptable way to install > Macintosh programs. Even though it was mindnumbingly simple, > installation programs caught on because most minds were too numb to > handle copying files.) Trying to tell people that our way is easy would > be akin to telling Bush that killing people is generally a bad thing. > You can do it, but they won't listen because they are completely > irrational. The command line does have a steep learning cliff. So does driving a car in traffic for the first time, but they both get easier with practice. Both are dangerous with just a little knowledge. Should people know how to do both? If they want more out of their car that a trip to the curb and back, then yes for the car. If they want more out of their computer than a dummy interface, then yes for the computer. I get a kick out of these 'server config gui thingies'... sysadmins using webmin to configure something and never realizing that the thingy can only unleash maybe 10% of the apps' potential. I'm not even gonna get into ranting about the practice of putting a gui on a server to begin with... some people are just much better off taking the bus. -- Keith -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 11 17:56:23 2003 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter L. Peres) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 19:56:23 +0200 (IST) Subject: Time for a new Linux In-Reply-To: <3FB014E2.40309-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <3FB014E2.40309@rogers.com> Message-ID: The way dependencies work, all you have to do is set up a consistent notation. The 'machine' that walks this data is simply a recursive algorythm that goes depth-first. No magic is involved. It does not matter if the database is umpteen gazillions of rpm database, or a makefile (make does the recursive depth-first search). Make is fairly fast (it compiles the database - aka makefile - before starting to work on it). Also make can call itself recursively on subdirectories and/or other files. Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From bonnie-grKYUO1WUpSaMJb+Lgu22Q at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 11 18:08:31 2003 From: bonnie-grKYUO1WUpSaMJb+Lgu22Q at public.gmane.org (misterbonnie) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 12:08:31 -0600 (CST) Subject: linux = impossible? (no offense meant!) In-Reply-To: <1313.216.138.194.32.1068571123.squirrel-16UnNR4aCrhlws70yGkXPA@public.gmane.org> References: <1313.216.138.194.32.1068571123.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Nov 2003, Keith Mastin wrote: > > > > There is another problem with unix, which I think is less legitimate: > > people are scared of the command line and following instructions. Most > > people simply want to click a button and be done with it. It doesn't > > matter if typing 'pkg_add some_package' is equivalent, because you > > actually have to follow an instruction to do this. By following an > > instruction, I mean that the user is doing something other than running > > a program in the typical way. (For many years, dragging an icon from a > > floppy diskette to the hard drive was the acceptable way to install > > Macintosh programs. Even though it was mindnumbingly simple, > > installation programs caught on because most minds were too numb to > > handle copying files.) Trying to tell people that our way is easy would > > be akin to telling Bush that killing people is generally a bad thing. > > You can do it, but they won't listen because they are completely > > irrational. > > The command line does have a steep learning cliff. So does driving a car > in traffic for the first time, but they both get easier with practice. > Both are dangerous with just a little knowledge. Should people know how to > do both? If they want more out of their car that a trip to the curb and > back, then yes for the car. If they want more out of their computer than a > dummy interface, then yes for the computer. > > I get a kick out of these 'server config gui thingies'... sysadmins using > webmin to configure something and never realizing that the thingy can only > unleash maybe 10% of the apps' potential. I'm not even gonna get into > ranting about the practice of putting a gui on a server to begin with... > some people are just much better off taking the bus. > the driving analogy is interesting one, but heres another take on it the commandline is very much a language -- very linear, with vocabulary and syntax. as a medium it is closely tied in to writing/print whereas a gui is akin to driving, a videogame or what have you, a response to interactive visual cues and is (more) non-linear, approaches more closely an instantaneous perception of the whole. the gui is more about short-term memory and response than a linear sequence of commands memorized and executed. if anyone here has read microserfs, there is a hilarious discussion of user interfaces which bascially concludes that the cli (which it characterizes as the "pc" or "dos" approach is by nature masculine while the gui (apple) is a more "feminine", gestalt-focused way of doing things. while i dont wanna beleive the gender crap, there is a great potential in analysing these different interfaces from a post mcluhan perspective, rather than just a leeter than thou one. a lot of the affection for the cli does eem to stem from one notorious mcluhanism: with the emergence of a new medium, its predecessor becomes an art form. comparing the gui and the cli, which one is "warm" and which one "cool"? if current guis are unsatisfactory, does that exclude them from the functionality of the cli for ever? bonnie -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From kmastin-PzQIwG9Jn9VAFePFGvp55w at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 11 18:10:43 2003 From: kmastin-PzQIwG9Jn9VAFePFGvp55w at public.gmane.org (Keith Mastin) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 13:10:43 -0500 (EST) Subject: All across Toronto.. In-Reply-To: <20031111121703.439d5b2c.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <1195.216.138.194.32.1068568499.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> <20031111121703.439d5b2c.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <1453.216.138.194.32.1068574243.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> > On Tue, 11 Nov 2003 11:34:59 -0500 (EST) > "Keith Mastin" uttered: > >> watch the eyes glaze > > I find their eyes pop back open, *way* open, when you mention that > Linux, for all intents and purposes, has no need for anti-virus software > that cost(s) them 50 bucks, and requires daily updates (and then doesn't > work). I learned real quick that a lot of the general public becomes untrusting if I tell them that AV is unnecessary, so now I tell them that it's built in and runs in the background automagically so they don't even need to know it's there. I was asked to show it once, so a quick tail -f /var/log/httpd/access_log and those eyes glazed just a little deeper... sometimes the truth is just a little too much to handle all at once. :) > "How can that be?!" > > Depending on the person, it also helps to tell them they will be putting > the screws to a *big corporation*, but maybe that's just the people I > hang out with ;-) You do realize that OSS is no longer the little fish in the pond, don't you? Although there is no corporation, OSS is outpacing proprietary software in so many ways. I can use most programs on Linux, *BSD and any other number of ports (if I used any other ports), rather than being limited to one choice (which is no choice). I read somewhere that there are now an estimated 500,000 people developing OSS, which leaves ANY corporate development team at a loss. We already have MSCE converts asking why certain things can't be done on an M$ system that we take for granted at a server level, and soon, maybe in a year or 2, the average desktop user will be asking the same questions (although everyone already loves the multiple desktops and shells we get with GNOME and KDE). The beauty is that we are NOT screwing M$, they are screwing themselves. All we are doing, IMHO, is refusing to be their victims. -- Keith -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From kmastin-PzQIwG9Jn9VAFePFGvp55w at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 11 18:35:47 2003 From: kmastin-PzQIwG9Jn9VAFePFGvp55w at public.gmane.org (Keith Mastin) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 13:35:47 -0500 (EST) Subject: Anti-Virus for desktop linux & win In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1566.216.138.194.32.1068575747.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> > Since viruses are in the news alot, friends keep asking me to recommend > anti-virus software to them. So, I did an analysis. It seems that > Kaspersky (US$50) is the highest rated for virus-protection. FProt is > free for Linux. > > My final recommendation is that you get 1 copy of Kaspersky and then put > Fprot (Linux) or Avast (Win) on all your other machines. If someone asks > you for a recommendation for Windows tell them to get Avast (or maybe > AntiVir) for free rather than giving more money to Symantec. For end-users, there are 2 recommendations I give. Mom-n-pop will get AVG Free edition (grisoft.com). Automagically updates for the lesser PITA. If a system is plagued by bugs, then Sophos (sophos.com) has a great set of command line tools to clean the guts out of the machine. Sophos is a bear to use, but it's powerful. Both are developed for large commercial entities and sell to the little guy as an afterthought. Most people would really love to have an AV that they never have to worry about again... linux has a built in one. :) -- Keith Mastin BeechTree Information Technology Services Inc. Toronto, Canada (416)429 9304 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jay-ZPnsNkHkFjk at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 11 18:55:27 2003 From: jay-ZPnsNkHkFjk at public.gmane.org (Jason Carson) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 13:55:27 -0500 (EST) Subject: OT: Get out there and vote! In-Reply-To: <3FAFF44D.9030504-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <3FAF7D38.8040101@rogers.com> <3FAFF44D.9030504@rogers.com> Message-ID: <50776.66.11.182.5.1068576927.squirrel@cbits.ca> >> I suppose it's possible for a politician to have some redeeming >> qualities > > Understandably so, but at the municipal level politics are significantly > different, and IMHO, a lot more pragmatic since they aren't so many > levels removed from the nitty-gritty of how the city, and > people/businesses, work. But people are people... > > Mind you the mayor is only one vote on council and has little or no > additional real power if he does not have the backing of council. > Collectively speaking your councillor (sp?) is of more actual value as > there are more of them, but everybody must indeed play their part. > > What makes this particular mayoral and council election so important > (and I'm skipping over school trustee as I don't know much about that > right now) is that in local politics around here it's rare that the > incumbent *does not* win. This time, there is *no* incumbent, which > means we are effectively electing someone who will, in all probability, > be in power for the next 10-15 years. > > Things (i.e. more specifically people and parties) have changed, or will > soon, on all levels of government in this country and we have an > excellent opportunity to make this a better place to live. > > I could mention who I'm voting for, but I would like people, at the very > least, to read everything from everyone relevant to their location and > act with wisdom. Knowledge is power and as much as I think democracy is > effectively tyranny of the majority, I can't think of a more functional > system. Well, we do have a constitution which protects minority rights so it kind of balances out the whole tyranny of the majority thing... in theory anyways. > Regards, > Byron > > > -- > > For good, return good. For evil, return justice. > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From awh-z32R3RYGf1M at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 11 19:15:47 2003 From: awh-z32R3RYGf1M at public.gmane.org (Drew Hamilton) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 14:15:47 -0500 Subject: OT: Get out there and vote! Message-ID: <20031111191547.GA15747%awh@awh.org> Continuing the off-topic thread, was anyone else upset by the way that the vote was handled? I had the following issues with my polling place: 1) I didn't have to prove that I was a Canadian citizen before they let me add myself to the list of eligible electors. All that they cared about was that I lived in the building that the polling place was. I'd estimate that over 50% of my building's tenants are not Canadian citizens, so that was probably an important thing to check. 2) When they were searching for my name on the elector list, they told me which of my neighbours were on the list 3) After I filled in the voting sheet, I had to hand it back to the electoral staff member, who looked it over before putting it in the computer. What right does he have to know how I voted? - awh -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From blanco-S8qYAnHmZTt34ZA5RureAJ4VBq8PJc8F at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 11 19:53:54 2003 From: blanco-S8qYAnHmZTt34ZA5RureAJ4VBq8PJc8F at public.gmane.org (Max Blanco) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 14:53:54 -0500 (EST) Subject: OT: Get out there and vote! In-Reply-To: <20031111191547.GA15747%awh-z32R3RYGf1M@public.gmane.org> References: <20031111191547.GA15747%awh@awh.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Nov 2003, Drew Hamilton wrote: > Continuing the off-topic thread, was anyone else upset by the way that the > vote was handled? I had the following issues with my polling place: > > 1) I didn't have to prove that I was a Canadian citizen before they > let me add myself to the list of eligible electors. All that they > cared about was that I lived in the building that the polling place > was. I'd estimate that over 50% of my building's tenants are not > Canadian citizens, so that was probably an important thing to check. I think that the element of trust is a legacy of the British system. Thank God for the British, I think; otherwise I think that we would have a police state with National ID cards like the type that I think Federal Immigration Minister Denis Coderre wants to implement. I think that he is not your friend. Should your name not be on the voter's list, I think that you are required to take an oath to the effect that you are who you say you are and a qualified elector. I think that you are liable to penalty of perjury if you are not qualified. I think that this involves a prison sentence. > 2) When they were searching for my name on the elector list, they told me > which of my neighbours were on the list I think that the voters' list is open to public scrutiny, as I think that it should be. > 3) After I filled in the voting sheet, I had to hand it back to the > electoral staff member, who looked it over before putting it in the > computer. What right does he have to know how I voted? I think that may be a violation of secrecy; I think that maybe you should have been given a folder in which to place your ballot. I think that maybe the clerk should have fed the ballot face down into the machine; I think that maybe s/he should not have had the opportunity to read your ballot. Read . BTW, IANAL. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From kmastin-PzQIwG9Jn9VAFePFGvp55w at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 11 19:59:22 2003 From: kmastin-PzQIwG9Jn9VAFePFGvp55w at public.gmane.org (Keith Mastin) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 14:59:22 -0500 (EST) Subject: backup stratagems In-Reply-To: <3FA852DC.700-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FA852DC.700@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <1756.216.138.194.32.1068580762.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> > Alright, backups are unquestionably essential. > I admit to practicing the crudest of methods; drag everything into a > k3b session, whenever my spidey sense tells me to. > My most recent mishaps with modules have me considering more formal > alternatives. > linux-backup.net has several (bash & perl) scripts that look clever. > Hdup monthly/weekly/daily approach makes sense > mondos' bootable backup isos are compelling > offsite over-the-net sounds practical > > What do you use ? > ..discuss .. Personally... dump it to another system and hope. Commercially, rsync via ssh works wonders, and can be scripted to run taper at the other end to write it from disk to tape, makes for 3 data copies. My script also sends a message to verify the backup, so it makes adminning a little easier. -- Keith Mastin BeechTree Information Technology Services Inc. Toronto, Canada (416)429 9304 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From tim-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 11 20:32:07 2003 From: tim-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Tim Writer) Date: 11 Nov 2003 15:32:07 -0500 Subject: OT: Get out there and vote! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Max Blanco writes: > On Tue, 11 Nov 2003, Drew Hamilton wrote: > > > Continuing the off-topic thread, was anyone else upset by the way that the > > vote was handled? I had the following issues with my polling place: > > > > 1) I didn't have to prove that I was a Canadian citizen before they > > let me add myself to the list of eligible electors. All that they > > cared about was that I lived in the building that the polling place > > was. I'd estimate that over 50% of my building's tenants are not > > Canadian citizens, so that was probably an important thing to check. > > I think that the element of trust is a legacy of the British system. > Thank God for the British, I think; otherwise I think that we would have a > police state with National ID cards like the type that I think Federal > Immigration Minister Denis Coderre wants to implement. I think that he is > not your friend. > > Should your name not be on the voter's list, I think that you are required > to take an oath to the effect that you are who you say you are and a > qualified elector. I think that you are liable to penalty of perjury if > you are not qualified. I think that this involves a prison sentence. I'm willing to be corrected but, AFAIK, you don't have to be a Canadian citizen to vote in a municipal election, just a resident. > > 2) When they were searching for my name on the elector list, they told me > > which of my neighbours were on the list > > I think that the voters' list is open to public scrutiny, as I think > that it should be. > > > 3) After I filled in the voting sheet, I had to hand it back to the > > electoral staff member, who looked it over before putting it in the > > computer. What right does he have to know how I voted? > > I think that may be a violation of secrecy; I think that maybe you should > have been given a folder in which to place your ballot. I think that > maybe the clerk should have fed the ballot face down into the machine; I > think that maybe s/he should not have had the opportunity to read your > ballot. Yes, at my polling station, I was required to get an electoral official to sign it but the spot for his signature was visible when in the envelope. Another official fed it face down into the machine. The issues I have are: o How long does it take to get on the voting list? I've been resident in Toronto since 1987 and am still not on the list. Another woman at the polling station has been here for 50 years and isn't on the list! o How long does it take to get off the list? 5 people who are no longer at my address (and haven't been for more than 5 years) are still on the list. o What's with the stupid arrows? o Who makes the counting machines? Is the software available for public scrutiny? -- tim writer starnix inc. 905.771.0017 ext. 225 thornhill, ontario, canada http://www.starnix.com professional linux services & products -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 11 20:44:18 2003 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 15:44:18 -0500 Subject: OT: Get out there and vote! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20031111204418.GA1063@node1.opengeometry.net> On Tue, Nov 11, 2003 at 03:32:07PM -0500, Tim Writer wrote: > > I think that may be a violation of secrecy; I think that maybe you should > > have been given a folder in which to place your ballot. I think that > > maybe the clerk should have fed the ballot face down into the machine; I > > think that maybe s/he should not have had the opportunity to read your > > ballot. > > Yes, at my polling station, I was required to get an electoral official to > sign it but the spot for his signature was visible when in the envelope. > Another official fed it face down into the machine. > > The issues I have are: > > o How long does it take to get on the voting list? I've been resident > in Toronto since 1987 and am still not on the list. Another woman at > the polling station has been here for 50 years and isn't on the > list! > > o How long does it take to get off the list? 5 people who are no > longer at my address (and haven't been for more than 5 years) are > still on the list. > > o What's with the stupid arrows? > > o Who makes the counting machines? Is the software available for > public scrutiny? Dictatorship is not that bad. :-) -- William Park, Open Geometry Consulting, Linux solution for data management and processing. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lists-Gb8Tj4xcA4YgsBAKwltoeQ at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 11 20:49:04 2003 From: lists-Gb8Tj4xcA4YgsBAKwltoeQ at public.gmane.org (Byron Desnoyers Winmill) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 15:49:04 -0500 Subject: linux = impossible? (no offense meant!) In-Reply-To: <1313.216.138.194.32.1068571123.squirrel-16UnNR4aCrhlws70yGkXPA@public.gmane.org> References: <20031108151915.10151.qmail@mail.com> <20031108104744.327e1f78.joehill@sympatico.ca> <1313.216.138.194.32.1068571123.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> Message-ID: <20031111204904.GA93846@pluto.bsdwebhosting.net> On Tue, Nov 11, 2003 at 12:18:43PM -0500, Keith Mastin wrote: > I get a kick out of these 'server config gui thingies'... sysadmins using > webmin to configure something and never realizing that the thingy can only > unleash maybe 10% of the apps' potential. Using a GUI thingy to configure it only discourages them from reading the manual, which is a bad thing for sysadmins -- IMHO. > some people are just much better off taking the bus. I'll try not to take offence: I take the bus because driving is a horrible waste of a mind. However, Linux is a great waste of a mind ... Byron. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From blanco-S8qYAnHmZTt34ZA5RureAJ4VBq8PJc8F at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 11 21:06:04 2003 From: blanco-S8qYAnHmZTt34ZA5RureAJ4VBq8PJc8F at public.gmane.org (Max Blanco) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 16:06:04 -0500 (EST) Subject: OT: Get out there and vote! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 11 Nov 2003, Tim Writer wrote: > The issues I have are: > > o How long does it take to get on the voting list? I've been resident > in Toronto since 1987 and am still not on the list. Another woman at > the polling station has been here for 50 years and isn't on the > list! > > o How long does it take to get off the list? 5 people who are no > longer at my address (and haven't been for more than 5 years) are > still on the list. Two good questions. Does the Chief Electoral Officer, who I'm told is the head of the civil service (Privy Council for Ontario), have obligations under the act, and if so, can you send him a letter with the request that names be deleted or added? What is the mechanism under the act? > o What's with the stupid arrows? That's likely to be an artefact of the counting machines... > o Who makes the counting machines? Is the software available for > public scrutiny? VERY good question. Why not use the tried and true hand count system? Why introduce a machine which only the elite few who understand the intricacies of a particular computer language can access? Why introduce a machine between the people and their democracy? No good can come of this system. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lists-Gb8Tj4xcA4YgsBAKwltoeQ at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 11 21:13:54 2003 From: lists-Gb8Tj4xcA4YgsBAKwltoeQ at public.gmane.org (Byron Desnoyers Winmill) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 16:13:54 -0500 Subject: OT: Get out there and vote! In-Reply-To: References: <20031111191547.GA15747%awh@awh.org> Message-ID: <20031111211354.GB93846@pluto.bsdwebhosting.net> On Tue, Nov 11, 2003 at 02:53:54PM -0500, Max Blanco wrote: > I think that the element of trust is a legacy of the British system. > Thank God for the British Thankfully, I'm not the only person who believes in the value of trust. As for who gets to vote: I'm of the opinion that anybody who must deal with the government should have input into the government. Whether the electoral process is the appropriate place is another question, but it is all to easy for the interest of potential citizens to be ignored otherwise. (I'm from Alberta and have heard plenty of xenophobic rhetoric, and it is exactly that.) Besides, if voter turnout was ever so low that they could override the interests of citizens ... > I think that the voters' list is open to public scrutiny, as I think > that it should be. There is a lot of public information which people are not aware of. IMHO, it doesn't become an issue until that information can be harvested for ill willed purposes. The problem with a lot of records going online, which is where at least some of my anxiety over privacy comes in, is that accessing these records for bad purposes has become all too easy. > I think that may be a violation of secrecy; It is, but it was probably dropped in the name of progress. AFAIK, the clerks cannot even stuff your ballot into the box at the federal level. As a general rule, I abhor electronic voting systems because it is impossible for the voter to judge whether their ballot is secret. If you stuff a ballot into a box, it is effectively detached from you at the end of the day (unless you were the only voter). > Read . Important enough to keep. Byron. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From MichaelGalea-4VtgCsEi+FIybS5Ee8rs3A at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 11 21:17:34 2003 From: MichaelGalea-4VtgCsEi+FIybS5Ee8rs3A at public.gmane.org (Michael Galea) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 16:17:34 -0500 Subject: Linux development position to be had.. Message-ID: I'm passing this on for my boss... RuggedCom has a position open for a highly motivated individual with at least five years experience developing embedded software for Linux based networking equipment. This role encompasses writing software, leading and managing development projects, hardware and software component selection and providing technical direction for future products. The ideal candidate will have experience in many of the following areas: * Programming C/C++ for embedded systems and Linux * Embedding Linux into a custom hardware platform * Configuring, deploying, and troubleshooting network communications systems * Linux administration, GNU tools, CVS, Bugzilla, * Ethernet switching and IP routing * Layer 2 LAN protocols: RSTP, VLAN, IGMP, * TCP/IP and related Layer 3 protocols * Motorola ColdFire and PowerPC micro-controllers * Frame-Relay, ISDN, X.25, SMDS * Wireless networking: 802.11, FHSS, * Secure protocols: SSH, IPSec, 802.1x, * Firewalls / VPN * Network management: via SNMP * SCADA systems and protocols: Modbus, DNP RuggedCom is a manufacturer of industrial hardened communications equipment. We produce a product line of Ethernet LAN switches and routers using state of the art digital technology. See our website at for more information about the company and products. RuggedCom is a rapidly growing company that has an exciting and dynamic work environment with significant opportunity for personal growth. We also offer a very competitive benefits package. Please direct your resume to Roger Moore at rogermoore-4VtgCsEi+FIybS5Ee8rs3A at public.gmane.org Michael Galea 64 Jardin Drive, Unit 3G Concord, Ontario, Canada, L4K 3P3 Telephone: (905) 760-7799 Ext. 245 Fax (905) 760-9909 email: michaelgalea-4VtgCsEi+FIybS5Ee8rs3A at public.gmane.org web site: www.ruggedcom.com -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 11 22:11:59 2003 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 17:11:59 -0500 Subject: OT: Get out there and vote! In-Reply-To: <20031111191547.GA15747%awh-z32R3RYGf1M@public.gmane.org> References: <20031111191547.GA15747%awh@awh.org> Message-ID: <3FB15EAF.9040604@rogers.com> Drew Hamilton wrote: > Continuing the off-topic thread, was anyone else upset by the way that the > vote was handled? I had the following issues with my polling place: > > 1) I didn't have to prove that I was a Canadian citizen before they > let me add myself to the list of eligible electors. All that they > cared about was that I lived in the building that the polling place > was. I'd estimate that over 50% of my building's tenants are not > Canadian citizens, so that was probably an important thing to check. I was asked for proof of identity. Is Canadian citizenship required for local elections? > > 2) When they were searching for my name on the elector list, they told me > which of my neighbours were on the list Years ago, they used to post voters lists in public areas. It's public info. > > 3) After I filled in the voting sheet, I had to hand it back to the > electoral staff member, who looked it over before putting it in the > computer. What right does he have to know how I voted? That was wrong. When I handed in my ballot, in the security folder, the clerk placed the ballot face down on the machine, which then withdrew the ballot from the folder. The marked side was never visible and the folder was held in place for the time necessary for the machine to swallow the ballot. There was very little opportunity for the clerk to even see the back side of the ballot. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 11 22:15:58 2003 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 17:15:58 -0500 Subject: OT: Get out there and vote! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3FB15F9E.9080408@rogers.com> Max Blanco wrote: > VERY good question. Why not use the tried and true hand count system? > Why introduce a machine which only the elite few who understand the > intricacies of a particular computer language can access? > Why introduce a machine between the people and their democracy? > > No good can come of this system. Or we can always use the punch cards, like they have in Florida. ;-) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From mggagne-oUREY1nl/XXQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 11 22:15:42 2003 From: mggagne-oUREY1nl/XXQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Marcel (Free Thinker at Large) Gagne) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 17:15:42 -0500 Subject: Live Tuesday night (tonight) on The Linux Show Message-ID: <200311111715.42392.mggagne@salmar.com> Hello everyone, I had meant to send this out earlier, but life kept happening . . . Anyhow, let me continue with the warning that there is some amount of gratuitous self-promotion in this message. You have been warned. This is your last chance to stop reading . . . Tuesday night (that's tonight), at 8:30 PM, Central Time, I will be interviewed live on "The Linux Show" (details of the upcoming show are available at http://www.thelinuxshow.com). If you've never listened to the show, it's a weekly web radio program dedicated to all things Linux with streams available in Real Audio, Ogg, and MP3 formats from several different sources on the main website. There is also a companion IRC channel (irc.thelinuxshow.com, on channel #linuxshow) where you can get in on the action, have your say, comment on the show, etc. It would be great to see as many people from this group as possible. Topics of discussion on The Linux Show tend to be topical so the events leading up to Tuesday night will surely have some bearing on what we will talk about. Since my segment is called "Kiss the Blue Screen of Death Goodbye!", I'm sure that we'll spend some time talking about my new book but the same name. Whatever we wind up talking about, the IRC channel gives you the opportunity to intereact. If you can't make it for the live show, it will be archived for another week on the site. See you there (so to speak). Take care out there. -- Marcel (Writer and Free Thinker at Large) Gagn? Note: This massagee wos nat speel or gramer-checkered. Mandatory home page reference - http://www.marcelgagne.com/ Author : "Moving to Linux: Kiss the Blue Screen of Death Goodbye!" Also by Marcel : Linux System Administration, A User's Guide Join the WFTL-LUG : http://www.salmar.com/marcel/wftllugform.html -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 11 22:17:30 2003 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 17:17:30 -0500 Subject: OT: Get out there and vote! In-Reply-To: <3FB15EAF.9040604-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <20031111191547.GA15747%awh@awh.org> <3FB15EAF.9040604@rogers.com> Message-ID: <3FB15FFA.9090202@rogers.com> James Knott wrote: > Drew Hamilton wrote: > >> Continuing the off-topic thread, was anyone else upset by the way that >> the >> vote was handled? I had the following issues with my polling place: >> >> 1) I didn't have to prove that I was a Canadian citizen before they >> let me add myself to the list of eligible electors. All that they >> cared about was that I lived in the building that the polling place >> was. I'd estimate that over 50% of my building's tenants are not >> Canadian citizens, so that was probably an important thing to check. > > > I was asked for proof of identity. Is Canadian citizenship required for > local elections? Forgot to mention. I was already on the list and merely proving I was who I claimed to be. It may take a bit more, to get on the list. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 11 23:13:03 2003 From: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 18:13:03 -0500 (EST) Subject: Live Tuesday night (tonight) on The Linux Show In-Reply-To: <200311111715.42392.mggagne-oUREY1nl/XXQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <200311111715.42392.mggagne@salmar.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Nov 2003, Marcel (Free Thinker at Large) Gagne wrote: > Tuesday night (that's tonight), at 8:30 PM, Central Time, I will be > interviewed live on "The Linux Show" (details of the upcoming show are > available at http://www.thelinuxshow.com). If you've never listened to the > show, it's a weekly web radio program dedicated to all things Linux with > streams available in Real Audio, Ogg, and MP3 formats from several different > sources on the main website. There is also a companion IRC channel > (irc.thelinuxshow.com, on channel #linuxshow) where you can get in on the > action, have your say, comment on the show, etc. It would be great to see as > many people from this group as possible. Sounds great, but it is happening right on top of the _TLUG_ talk tonight, which I will be attending. So many Linux events, so little time... Rob -- Robert Brockway B.Sc. email: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org, zzbrock at uqconnect.net Linux counter project ID #16440 (http://counter.li.org) "The earth is but one country and mankind its citizens" -Baha'u'llah -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jay-ZPnsNkHkFjk at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 11 23:38:58 2003 From: jay-ZPnsNkHkFjk at public.gmane.org (Jason Carson) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 18:38:58 -0500 (EST) Subject: Live Tuesday night (tonight) on The Linux Show In-Reply-To: References: <200311111715.42392.mggagne@salmar.com> Message-ID: <53258.66.11.182.5.1068593938.squirrel@cbits.ca> > On Tue, 11 Nov 2003, Marcel (Free Thinker at Large) Gagne wrote: > >> Tuesday night (that's tonight), at 8:30 PM, Central Time, I will be >> interviewed live on "The Linux Show" (details of the upcoming show are >> available at http://www.thelinuxshow.com). If you've never listened to >> the >> show, it's a weekly web radio program dedicated to all things Linux with >> streams available in Real Audio, Ogg, and MP3 formats from several >> different >> sources on the main website. There is also a companion IRC channel >> (irc.thelinuxshow.com, on channel #linuxshow) where you can get in on >> the >> action, have your say, comment on the show, etc. It would be great to >> see as >> many people from this group as possible. > > Sounds great, but it is happening right on top of the _TLUG_ talk tonight, > which I will be attending. So many Linux events, so little time... Actually it sounds pretty bad :o) There is a high pitch noise in the background and its damn annoying! > Rob > > -- > Robert Brockway B.Sc. email: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org, > zzbrock-cFo9iiqjkw8eIZ0/mPfg9Q at public.gmane.org > Linux counter project ID #16440 (http://counter.li.org) > "The earth is but one country and mankind its citizens" -Baha'u'llah > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From Tom-QXpTDD2AffPSUeElwK9/Pw at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 11 23:55:40 2003 From: Tom-QXpTDD2AffPSUeElwK9/Pw at public.gmane.org (Tom) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 18:55:40 -0500 Subject: Regarding UserLinux, let's stop slagging Red Hat! Message-ID: http://www.wired.com/news/infostructure/0,1377,61166,00.html Though I'm pleased to hear about UserLinux, I don't see why it is necessary to slag Red Hat while announcing it. Red Hat is not the enemy. They are a (comparitively) tiny company that must make money to survive, and in case you didn't notice, it is very hard to make money developing open source software. They are not hurting Linux. If you don't like some of their practises (ie. some closed source software) then you go to a different distribution. I think the purists should stop fighting the non-purists and start fighting MS. Tom. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jzygmont-tEQKYFGiemxAYG7eUwYNkWD2FQJk+8+b at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 11 23:57:11 2003 From: jzygmont-tEQKYFGiemxAYG7eUwYNkWD2FQJk+8+b at public.gmane.org (Justin Zygmont) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 18:57:11 -0500 (EST) Subject: Linux development position to be had.. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Please direct your resume to Roger Moore at rogermoore-4VtgCsEi+FIybS5Ee8rs3A at public.gmane.org I heard he was in Calgary advocating UNICEF or something like that? :) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From grant.cullen-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 12 00:01:29 2003 From: grant.cullen-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (Grant Cullen) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 19:01:29 -0500 Subject: OT: Get out there and vote! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Look what happened in Florida with the use of machines. Grant Cullen JADALL Consulting Ltd. grant.cullen-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org 416-706-4447 -----Original Message----- From: owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org [mailto:owner-tlug at ss.org]On Behalf Of Max Blanco Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 16:06 To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Subject: Re: [TLUG]: OT: Get out there and vote! On 11 Nov 2003, Tim Writer wrote: > The issues I have are: > > o How long does it take to get on the voting list? I've been resident > in Toronto since 1987 and am still not on the list. Another woman at > the polling station has been here for 50 years and isn't on the > list! > > o How long does it take to get off the list? 5 people who are no > longer at my address (and haven't been for more than 5 years) are > still on the list. Two good questions. Does the Chief Electoral Officer, who I'm told is the head of the civil service (Privy Council for Ontario), have obligations under the act, and if so, can you send him a letter with the request that names be deleted or added? What is the mechanism under the act? > o What's with the stupid arrows? That's likely to be an artefact of the counting machines... > o Who makes the counting machines? Is the software available for > public scrutiny? VERY good question. Why not use the tried and true hand count system? Why introduce a machine which only the elite few who understand the intricacies of a particular computer language can access? Why introduce a machine between the people and their democracy? No good can come of this system. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From taavi-LbuTpDkqzNzXI80/IeQp7B2eb7JE58TQ at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 12 00:20:46 2003 From: taavi-LbuTpDkqzNzXI80/IeQp7B2eb7JE58TQ at public.gmane.org (Taavi Burns) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 19:20:46 -0500 Subject: linux = impossible? (no offense meant!) Message-ID: <20031112002046.GC15848@hatefulsheep.ym.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> On Tue, 11 Nov 2003, bonnie wrote: > On Tue, 11 Nov 2003, Keith Mastin wrote: > > > There is another problem with unix, which I think is less legitimate: > > > people are scared of the command line and following instructions. Most > > > people simply want to click a button and be done with it. It doesn't Yes, they do. > > > matter if typing 'pkg_add some_package' is equivalent, because you > > > actually have to follow an instruction to do this. By following an Unfortunately, yes. > > > instruction, I mean that the user is doing something other than running > > > a program in the typical way. (For many years, dragging an icon from a > > > floppy diskette to the hard drive was the acceptable way to install > > > Macintosh programs. Even though it was mindnumbingly simple, > > > installation programs caught on because most minds were too numb to > > > handle copying files.) Um...this is still/again the de facto way to install Mac software. I've had a Powerbook since December, and dragging programs is how I install more than half of the software I use on there. It's simple, effective, and far less fugly. Some packages use the new OSX Installer.app, where you just have to double-click on the .pkg file, but it's a very nice, SIMPLE installer. There are very few options, but there are enough to get the job done. It's also generally only done for system applications which would require root priveledge to install. Any mac app using installshield loses major points in my books. It's fugly and hard to understand (Click "Continue" to install another program'. If I wanted to do that, I'd go and install it. Now GO AWAY.) > > I get a kick out of these 'server config gui thingies'... sysadmins using Have a look at the OSX Server admin utils if you ever have a chance. They appear to be quite effective. Then again, I've never had any good reason to use them. And yes, OSX does provide all the CLI utils to do the GUI work, so you do NOT have to use the GUI if you don't want to. > > webmin to configure something and never realizing that the thingy can only > > unleash maybe 10% of the apps' potential. I'm not even gonna get into That's certainly the case where the GUI designer is not the app designer, and where the GUI designer had no clue what the app or users were interested in providing or using. > > ranting about the practice of putting a gui on a server to begin with... > > some people are just much better off taking the bus. I take the bus, preferring to work on my Linux Thinkpad while commuting. :) (that or reading a book) > whereas a gui is akin to driving, a videogame or what have you, a response > to interactive visual cues and is (more) non-linear, approaches more > closely an instantaneous perception of the whole. the gui is more about > short-term memory and response than a linear sequence of commands > memorized and executed. This is consistent with the event model used to drive Windows applications; though the way it's implemented is very sequential. Object-oriented methodology which hides the serialised nature of the event model is a much more accurate representation of what occurs at runtime. > if anyone here has read microserfs, there is a hilarious discussion of > user interfaces which bascially concludes that the cli (which it > characterizes as the "pc" or "dos" approach is by nature masculine while > the gui (apple) is a more "feminine", gestalt-focused way of doing things. Neal Stephenson also has a wonderful bit of disussion about the varoius OSen. It's a bit dated, but when taken in context it's quite wonderful: http://www.cryptonomicon.com/beginning.html > while i dont wanna beleive the gender crap, there is a great potential in > analysing these different interfaces from a post mcluhan perspective, > rather than just a leeter than thou one. a lot of the affection for the That's 1337 to you, grrl. > cli does eem to stem from one notorious mcluhanism: with the emergence of > a new medium, its predecessor becomes an art form. But why shouldn't the GUI be an art form? Really, it should be. http://developer.apple.com/documentation/UserExperience/Conceptual/OSXHIGuidelines/index.html > comparing the gui and the cli, which one is "warm" and which one "cool"? > if current guis are unsatisfactory, does that exclude them from the > functionality of the cli for ever? Does the fact that the CLI is currently more powerful for us preclude the fact that the GUI might be a more powerful metaphor for interaction with our computers, when properly implemented? I'm not talking streamlining what we have now; what control paradigms have not even been considered that would fall under the category of the GUI? Optimising an algorithm is cool; picking a supierior algorithm is even cooler. -- taa /*eof*/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 12 00:30:01 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 19:30:01 -0500 Subject: Regarding UserLinux, let's stop slagging Red Hat! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20031111193001.07be5227.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Tue, 11 Nov 2003 18:55:40 -0500 "Tom" uttered: > I think the purists should stop > fighting the non-purists and start fighting MS. I think the problem some people are having with RH right now is primarily with their CEO remarking that home users should stick with Windows, that Linux is not ready for the home desktop. Doesn't sound like he's fighting MS, or helping Linux in general, therefore the slagging. Personally, I wouldn't touch RH with a 10 foot pole, and yes, for that reason alone. -- JoeHill Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ The final delusion is the belief that one has lost all delusions. -- Maurice Chapelain, "Main courante" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From Tom-QXpTDD2AffPSUeElwK9/Pw at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 12 01:02:59 2003 From: Tom-QXpTDD2AffPSUeElwK9/Pw at public.gmane.org (Tom) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 20:02:59 -0500 Subject: Regarding UserLinux, let's stop slagging Red Hat! References: <20031111193001.07be5227.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: "JoeHill" wrote in message news:20031111193001.07be5227.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FovoNgiiBKvA at public.gmane.org > On Tue, 11 Nov 2003 18:55:40 -0500 > "Tom" uttered: > > > I think the purists should stop > > fighting the non-purists and start fighting MS. > > I think the problem some people are having with RH right now is > primarily with their CEO remarking that home users should stick with > Windows, that Linux is not ready for the home desktop. Some people say this because they think that pushing home users to Linux too soon will be bad for Linux: one bad experience and they'll never be back. They are holding Linux back to help it (in their opinion). Isn't that why Red Hat is saying it? Or is there some commercial angle that I'm not seeing? Some reason why they don't want Linux to succeed on the desktop? Tom. > > Doesn't sound like he's fighting MS, or helping Linux in general, > therefore the slagging. Personally, I wouldn't touch RH with a 10 foot > pole, and yes, for that reason alone. > > -- > JoeHill > Registered Linux user #282046 > Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > The final delusion is the belief that one has lost all delusions. > -- Maurice Chapelain, "Main courante" > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lloyd-fEEwcc3XMu8jODpR/OX0VQ at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 12 01:18:13 2003 From: lloyd-fEEwcc3XMu8jODpR/OX0VQ at public.gmane.org (lloyd-fEEwcc3XMu8jODpR/OX0VQ at public.gmane.org) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 20:18:13 -0500 (EST) Subject: Regarding UserLinux, let's stop slagging Red Hat! In-Reply-To: References: <20031111193001.07be5227.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <1257.65.48.156.111.1068599893.squirrel@www.foolswisdom.com> > Some people say this because they think that pushing home users to Linux > too soon will be bad for Linux: one bad experience and they'll never be > back. They are holding Linux back to help it (in their opinion). I have not seen any solid arguments why Linux is not ready for the desktop. Even if there was, us consumers have a short memory and are very responsive to marketing and cost. > > Isn't that why Red Hat is saying it? Or is there some commercial angle > that I'm not seeing? Some reason why they don't want Linux to succeed > on the desktop? I do not believe that is why RH is saying that. There a couple likely reasons: * justify to their shareholders there immediate change in biz plan * prepare their market place and shareholders for further alignment with those statements Cheers, Lloyd -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 12 02:10:24 2003 From: fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Fraser Campbell) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 21:10:24 -0500 Subject: OT: Get out there and vote! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200311112110.24455.fraser@wehave.net> On November 11, 2003 03:32 pm, Tim Writer wrote: > I'm willing to be corrected but, AFAIK, you don't have to be a Canadian > citizen to vote in a municipal election, just a resident. Consider yourself corrected ;-) http://www.toronto.ca/vote2003/faq.htm#who -- Fraser Campbell http://www.wehave.net/ Georgetown, Ontario, Canada Debian GNU/Linux -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From marcus.brubaker-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 12 03:05:13 2003 From: marcus.brubaker-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Marcus Brubaker) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 22:05:13 -0500 Subject: Regarding UserLinux, let's stop slagging Red Hat! In-Reply-To: <1257.65.48.156.111.1068599893.squirrel-zSS9becEkFt1ArK9tKgR/kEOCMrvLtNR@public.gmane.org> References: <20031111193001.07be5227.joehill@sympatico.ca> <1257.65.48.156.111.1068599893.squirrel@www.foolswisdom.com> Message-ID: <1068606313.28938.126.camel@rincewind.discworld> On Tue, 2003-11-11 at 20:18, lloyd-fEEwcc3XMu8jODpR/OX0VQ at public.gmane.org wrote: > > Some people say this because they think that pushing home users to Linux > > too soon will be bad for Linux: one bad experience and they'll never be > > back. They are holding Linux back to help it (in their opinion). > I have not seen any solid arguments why Linux is not ready for the > desktop. Even if there was, us consumers have a short memory and are very > responsive to marketing and cost. > > > Isn't that why Red Hat is saying it? Or is there some commercial angle > > that I'm not seeing? Some reason why they don't want Linux to succeed > > on the desktop? > > I do not believe that is why RH is saying that. There a couple likely > reasons: > * justify to their shareholders there immediate change in biz plan > * prepare their market place and shareholders for further alignment with > those statements > Another point is that I think Red Hat got a bit burned on the desktop market. People may not realize it but they've put a *lot* of money into the desktop and they've only been able to make money in the enterprise/server arena. For the last years Red Hat has paid dozens of full-time engineers to work on GNOME and other desktop/user related items such as linuxconf and has seen little return from it. Beyond that I think people are honestly making a tempest in teacup about the comment. The infamous quote: "I would say that for the consumer market place, Windows probably continues to be the right product line," he said. "I would argue that from the device-driver standpoint and perhaps some of the other traditional functionality, for that classic consumer purchaser, it is my view that (Linux) technology needs to mature a little bit more." Basically, he thinks the brand-new whiz-bang hardware support is lacking. Can you really fault him much on that? Sure, Linux supports all the legacy hardware and more, but if you go out and by a webcam at random, what are the odds of it working out of the box? Hell, I just recently bought a new LCD monitor and while it wasn't hard to setup I don't imagine that a regular home user could've done it on their own. A *monitor* people. I agree that there is a segment of the consumer desktop for which Linux may not be the best option, namely those who are constantly after the latest and greatest gadgets. Anyone use an iPod on Linux? Does it work without significant fiddling? What about the brand-new ATI video card with full 3d acceleration? My hunch (and source of disagreement with Red Hat) is that the gadget group represents only a moderate minority of consumer desktops. As has been evidenced here and elsewhere, your regular mom/dad/grandparent/etc non-geek type who wants nothing more than to email, browse the web, write letters and chat will not only be successful with Linux but will probably be better suited by a good Linux box. Of course, it's the same chicken and egg problem that Linux has been fighting from day one. If no consumers use Linux, no one supports consumer products on Linux and if no one supports consumer products on Linux then no consumers use Linux. We seem to be overcoming the problem, in that more and more device manufactures are thinking about Linux support prior to release, but we're not 100% there yet. On a tangential note, I think that ultimately the best solution to this problem will come with from the enterprise desktop, which is what Red Hat is still targeting. Enterprise desktop brings a lot of dollars. If you're a hardware manufacturer who doesn't support Linux, you have no chance at enterprise Linux desktops. In that sense, I think that this market is the back door to the consumer desktop for Linux. Not only do you get a large group of consumers exposed to Linux through their work environment you also get the dollars which drive hardware support which is needed for the consumer desktop. Honestly, I can't be upset at Red Hat (or more precisely, their CEO) for thinking it. I can only be slightly annoyed at them for actually saying it to the press. The last thing we need is Gates going "See, even Linux people say Linux is bad on the desktop." -- Marcus Brubaker -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 12 04:49:36 2003 From: davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (David J Patrick) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 23:49:36 -0500 Subject: bye bye vi Message-ID: <3FB1BBE0.3050107@sympatico.ca> Something terrible has happened; someone has hacked into my computer NO! broken into my house and replaced vi ! vim ! gvim ! REPLACED I tell you !! And after all that learning curve ! I was just getting the hang of it ! But, seriously, after the latest greatest upgrade, to ver. 6.2-127+1, It has COMPLETELY CHANGED ! No more modes, always has line numbers, I can't event delete a line, save the file or ":q!" quit ! It's bizarre ! I tried running /usr/bin/vi, /usr/bin/vim/ , gvim, I tried hiding ~/.vim and I keep coming face to face with a complete stranger ! Once again I am forced to plead insanity and throw myself at the mercy of the LUG. can ya help ? djp -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From IlyaPalagin-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 12 00:19:14 2003 From: IlyaPalagin-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Ilya Palagin) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 00:19:14 +0000 Subject: bye bye vi In-Reply-To: <3FB1BBE0.3050107-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FB1BBE0.3050107@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <3FB17C82.4020407@rogers.com> David J Patrick wrote: > Something terrible has happened; someone has hacked into my computer > NO! broken into my house and replaced vi ! vim ! gvim ! > REPLACED I tell you !! > And after all that learning curve ! I was just getting the hang of it ! > But, seriously, after the latest greatest upgrade, to ver. 6.2-127+1, > It has COMPLETELY CHANGED ! No more modes, always has line numbers, I > can't event delete a line, save the file or ":q!" quit ! It's bizarre ! > I tried running /usr/bin/vi, /usr/bin/vim/ , gvim, I tried hiding > ~/.vim and I keep coming face to face with a complete stranger ! There should be no ~/.vim, but ~/.vimrc Here are the system-wide configs, try to rename them to run defaults: /usr/share/vim/vimrc /etc/vim/vimrc -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lists-Gb8Tj4xcA4YgsBAKwltoeQ at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 12 05:41:29 2003 From: lists-Gb8Tj4xcA4YgsBAKwltoeQ at public.gmane.org (Byron Q. Desnoyers Winmill) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 00:41:29 -0500 (EST) Subject: linux = impossible? (no offense meant!) In-Reply-To: <20031112002046.GC15848-9xiANKxwco42bRTacqR3/JR8nzhMnQZF/mqnPsBvoffFpvyHdVPjngC/G2K4zDHf@public.gmane.org> References: <20031112002046.GC15848@hatefulsheep.ym.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Nov 2003, Taavi Burns wrote: > Um...this is still/again the de facto way to install Mac software. It never really went away, but it did become less common during the System 7 to Mac OS 9 era. It seems to be more popular with Mac OS X because a lot of stuff is being crammed into bundles. Don't ask me how this is any different from resource forks (more portable, but it is serves the same function), but the drag'n drop installation is a lot better IMHO. > it's a very nice, SIMPLE installer Yes. It reminds me of the System 6 and System 7 era installer. Very nice. Also, I doubt any application needs root privilages to be installed: drwxrwxr-x 36 root admin 1224 29 Oct 21:24 /Library/ drwxr-xr-x 4 root wheel 136 29 Oct 21:24 /System/ The /System/Library path is supposed to be for Apple only. The /Library path is for system wide stuff, ~/Library is for user specific stuff, and finally there is (supposed to be) a /Network/Library path. So how many Linux users has Apple confused. ;-) > Have a look at the OSX Server admin utils if you ever have a chance. I'm only running Mac OS X and Linux on this machine. BTW, have you had any luck with XFree86 under Linux on your PowerBook? > And yes, OSX does provide all the CLI utils to do the GUI work This is the bit which really impressed me: yes the standard utilities are there, but Apple included their own CLI utilities for the netinfo database, managing disk images, setting up AppleTalk, and certainly others. You can certainly use Mac OS X without the GUI, but you may as well use Linux if you are going to to that far. (Why lock yourself into a subset of the available applications or restrictive licenses?) > But why shouldn't the GUI be an art form? Really, it should be. > http://developer.apple.com/documentation/UserExperience/Conceptual/OSXHIGuidelines/index.html The GUI isn't an artform, and that is the whole point of Apple's HI guidelines. The GUI should provide a consistent interface, and be based on solid research. Unfortunately, X11 applications do not offer either, which may be why people find Linux difficult to use (recall, they think the GUI is the OS). Byron. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 12 06:04:50 2003 From: davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (David J Patrick) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 01:04:50 -0500 Subject: hello vi In-Reply-To: <3FB17C82.4020407-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <3FB1BBE0.3050107@sympatico.ca> <3FB17C82.4020407@rogers.com> Message-ID: <3FB1CD82.6060803@sympatico.ca> Ilya Palagin wrote: > There should be no ~/.vim, but ~/.vimrc > > Here are the system-wide configs, try to rename them to run defaults: > /usr/share/vim/vimrc > /etc/vim/vimrc > How could I be so DAFT ! but of course ! after renaming ~/.vimrc all is well ! the very existence if ~/.vim/ threw me off.. I'm sorry to have bothered you with something so trivial, and thanks Ilya, for the promt and effective suggestion. djp -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 12 08:27:04 2003 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 03:27:04 -0500 Subject: time reference servers? Message-ID: <20031112082704.GA661@node1.opengeometry.net> Which time servers (port 13, 37, 123) do you use to set your system time? I would like to find machines closer to me than and . -- William Park, Open Geometry Consulting, Linux solution for data management and processing. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 12 10:25:32 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 05:25:32 -0500 Subject: Regarding UserLinux, let's stop slagging Red Hat! In-Reply-To: <1068606313.28938.126.camel-eTg7c9BlEq95hrpxxnI5yFifK/mc/01a@public.gmane.org> References: <20031111193001.07be5227.joehill@sympatico.ca> <1257.65.48.156.111.1068599893.squirrel@www.foolswisdom.com> <1068606313.28938.126.camel@rincewind.discworld> Message-ID: <20031112052532.11e37a55.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Tue, 11 Nov 2003 22:05:13 -0500 Marcus Brubaker uttered: > Basically, he thinks the brand-new whiz-bang hardware support is > lacking. Can you really fault him much on that? Sure, Linux supports > all the legacy hardware and more, but if you go out and by a webcam at > random, what are the odds of it working out of the box? Hell, I just > recently bought a new LCD monitor and while it wasn't hard to setup I > don't imagine that a regular home user could've done it on their own. > A*monitor* people. But that's exactly *because* of MS's monopoly on the home desktop. If more people were using Linux at home, and buying the latest hardware, and demanding that the hardware vendors support their Linux OS, then we would see a very different situation. Hardware vendors have for too long been in the thrall of MS, bowing and scraping to have their hardware supported. Once they realize there's money to be made from home Linux users, watch the drivers and support start to fly. Until now, Linux has had to scrape by on its own, reverse-engineering here, hacking there, because the hardware vendors either: a) couldn't give a rat's ass about Linux because of the thinking of people like RH's CEO. or b) because they've been bullied by MS into supporting only Windows. -- JoeHill Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ You have all eternity to be cautious in when you're dead. -- Lois Platford -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 12 10:33:37 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 05:33:37 -0500 Subject: Regarding UserLinux, let's stop slagging Red Hat! In-Reply-To: References: <20031111193001.07be5227.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <20031112053337.7653a8bd.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Tue, 11 Nov 2003 20:02:59 -0500 "Tom" uttered: > Some people say this because they think that pushing home users to > Linux too soon will be bad for Linux: one bad experience and they'll > never be back. They are holding Linux back to help it (in their > opinion). > > Isn't that why Red Hat is saying it? Or is there some commercial > angle that I'm not seeing? Some reason why they don't want Linux to > succeed on the desktop? I don't have the foggiest notion as to what could possess a person to say something so stupid, so I won't speculate as to his reasoning. In the end, it is this timidity which gives MS the edge, this FUD they are so famous for and which seems to have infected one seemingly intelligent CEO. -- JoeHill Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Dying is a very dull, dreary affair. My advice to you is to have nothing whatever to do with it. -- W. Somerset Maughm, his last words -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 12 12:55:40 2003 From: cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org (cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 07:55:40 -0500 Subject: time reference servers? In-Reply-To: Message from William Park of "Wed, 12 Nov 2003 03:27:04 EST." <20031112082704.GA661-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20031112082704.GA661@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <20031112125541.D317C44EC@cbbrowne.com> > Which time servers (port 13, 37, 123) do you use to set your system > time? I would like to find machines closer to me than > and . Two suggestions: 1. Put "server pool.ntp.org" in /etc/ntp.conf, perhaps more than once. This returns (via a DNS round-robin process) the IP of one of a considerable number of NTP servers. 2. Do a traceroute to [somewhere] and then try out each of the IPs along the way. One or more is likely to be a CISCO box run by your ISP that runs NTP. traceroute to tlug.ss.org (204.225.177.38), 30 hops max, 38 byte packets 1 HSE-MTL-ppp74224.qc.sympatico.ca (64.229.208.1) 53.017 ms 51.720 ms 47.888 ms 2 64.230.244.130 (64.230.244.130) 48.141 ms 50.087 ms 50.855 ms 3 206.108.107.181 (206.108.107.181) 49.783 ms 48.608 ms 50.142 ms 4 64.230.242.106 (64.230.242.106) 50.431 ms 49.791 ms 50.168 ms 5 206.108.98.126 (206.108.98.126) 52.010 ms 51.427 ms 51.071 ms 6 64.230.230.162 (64.230.230.162) 53.432 ms 52.320 ms 50.885 ms 7 tlug.ss.org (204.225.177.38) 52.784 ms 52.872 ms 54.657 ms godel% su - Password: godel:~# /etc/init.d/ntp-simple stop Stopping NTP server: ntpd. godel:~# ntpdate 64.230.244.130 12 Nov 07:51:32 ntpdate[5249]: adjust time server 64.230.244.130 offset 0.002855 sec godel:~# ntpdate 206.108.107.181 12 Nov 07:51:41 ntpdate[5250]: adjust time server 206.108.107.181 offset -0.004029 sec godel:~# ntpdate 64.230.242.106 12 Nov 07:51:48 ntpdate[5251]: adjust time server 64.230.242.106 offset 0.000315 sec godel:~# ntpdate 206.108.98.126 12 Nov 07:52:02 ntpdate[5252]: no server suitable for synchronization found godel:~# ntpdate 64.230.230.162 12 Nov 07:52:15 ntpdate[5253]: no server suitable for synchronization found godel:~# There are three candidates right there that are known to be "relatively nearby." -- output = reverse("ac.notelrac.teneerf" "@" "454aa") http://www.ntlug.org/~cbbrowne/wp.html "Keep your arms and legs attached to your torso at all times." -- griswold-AVBn4Hm4RctiK979QBapAg at public.gmane.org (Eric Griswold) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From MichaelGalea-4VtgCsEi+FIybS5Ee8rs3A at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 12 13:30:56 2003 From: MichaelGalea-4VtgCsEi+FIybS5Ee8rs3A at public.gmane.org (Michael Galea) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 08:30:56 -0500 Subject: Linux development position to be had.. Message-ID: > From: Justin Zygmont [mailto:jzygmont-tEQKYFGiemxAYG7eUwYNkWD2FQJk+8+b at public.gmane.org] > > > Please direct your resume to Roger Moore at > rogermoore-4VtgCsEi+FIybS5Ee8rs3A at public.gmane.org > > I heard he was in Calgary advocating UNICEF or something like that? :) > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > Oh Yeah, he gets a lot of comments like that.. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From gwalsh-HFI606nGbY9eoWH0uzbU5w at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 12 14:00:17 2003 From: gwalsh-HFI606nGbY9eoWH0uzbU5w at public.gmane.org (Gary Walsh) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 09:00:17 -0500 Subject: time reference servers? In-Reply-To: <20031112082704.GA661-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20031112082704.GA661@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <3FB23CF1.30606@oeone.net> William Park wrote: > Which time servers (port 13, 37, 123) do you use to set your system > time? I would like to find machines closer to me than > and . time.nrc.ca time.chu.nrc.ca See the National Research Council's Network Time Protocol page at http://inms-ienm.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca/time_services/network_time_protocol_e.htm. -- Gary Walsh Kitchener, Ontario, Canada gwalsh-HFI606nGbY9eoWH0uzbU5w at public.gmane.org http://www.oeone.net/gwalsh -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 12 14:07:34 2003 From: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 09:07:34 -0500 (EST) Subject: Linux development position to be had.. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Nov 2003, Michael Galea wrote: > Oh Yeah, he gets a lot of comments like that.. I used to work with a guy names Jim Carey. He was always getting comments. For a fun example of this phenomena see the movie "Office Space". It is well worth a look for lots of other reasons too. Rob -- Robert Brockway B.Sc. email: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org, zzbrock at uqconnect.net Linux counter project ID #16440 (http://counter.li.org) "The earth is but one country and mankind its citizens" -Baha'u'llah -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From ronjscott-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 12 14:55:56 2003 From: ronjscott-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (Ron Scott) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 09:55:56 -0500 Subject: time reference servers? References: <20031112082704.GA661@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <3FB249FC.E4632A8E@sympatico.ca> In Ottawa: try nrc.ca and in Toronto try: tick.utoronto.ca and tock.utoronto.ca William Park wrote: > > Which time servers (port 13, 37, 123) do you use to set your system > time? I would like to find machines closer to me than > and . > > -- > William Park, Open Geometry Consulting, > Linux solution for data management and processing. > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From kru_tch-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 12 16:00:25 2003 From: kru_tch-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (Stephen Allen) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 11:00:25 -0500 Subject: time reference servers? In-Reply-To: <20031112082704.GA661-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20031112082704.GA661@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <3FB25919.3080808@yahoo.ca> William Park wrote: > Which time servers (port 13, 37, 123) do you use to set your system > time? I would like to find machines closer to me than > and . > There is an excellent web page: . Shows the public stratum 1 and 2 servers by country. -- Best Regards, Steve -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 12 16:36:18 2003 From: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 11:36:18 -0500 (EST) Subject: time reference servers? In-Reply-To: <3FB25919.3080808-FFYn/CNdgSA@public.gmane.org> References: <20031112082704.GA661@node1.opengeometry.net> <3FB25919.3080808@yahoo.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Nov 2003, Stephen Allen wrote: > William Park wrote: > > > Which time servers (port 13, 37, 123) do you use to set your system > > time? I would like to find machines closer to me than > > and . > > > > There is an excellent web page: > > . > > Shows the public stratum 1 and 2 servers by country. It's important to avoid polling off stratum 1 servers. Even using stratem 2 servers should be avoided where possible (which should be pretty much always). If the ISP has an NTP server use that, otherwise use one of the publically available servers. Rob -- Robert Brockway B.Sc. email: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org, zzbrock at uqconnect.net Linux counter project ID #16440 (http://counter.li.org) "The earth is but one country and mankind its citizens" -Baha'u'llah -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From marcus.brubaker-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 12 17:30:22 2003 From: marcus.brubaker-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Marcus Brubaker) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 12:30:22 -0500 Subject: Regarding UserLinux, let's stop slagging Red Hat! In-Reply-To: <20031112052532.11e37a55.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <20031111193001.07be5227.joehill@sympatico.ca> <1257.65.48.156.111.1068599893.squirrel@www.foolswisdom.com> <1068606313.28938.126.camel@rincewind.discworld> <20031112052532.11e37a55.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <1068658221.28938.142.camel@rincewind.discworld> On Wed, 2003-11-12 at 05:25, JoeHill wrote: > On Tue, 11 Nov 2003 22:05:13 -0500 > Marcus Brubaker uttered: > > > Basically, he thinks the brand-new whiz-bang hardware support is > > lacking. Can you really fault him much on that? Sure, Linux supports > > all the legacy hardware and more, but if you go out and by a webcam at > > random, what are the odds of it working out of the box? Hell, I just > > recently bought a new LCD monitor and while it wasn't hard to setup I > > don't imagine that a regular home user could've done it on their own. > > A*monitor* people. > > But that's exactly *because* of MS's monopoly on the home desktop. If > more people were using Linux at home, and buying the latest hardware, > and demanding that the hardware vendors support their Linux OS, then we > would see a very different situation. Hardware vendors have for too long Which is precisely what I said in the rest of my email. It's the chicken/egg problem. Honestly, do you expect people to spend money on hardware which only has a chance of working and then call the company to ask why it doesn't? What I *do* expect to happen is that people will choose Linux supported hardware over hardware which isn't, which will give the vendors the incentive to support Linux. Moreover, my point was that there probably isn't enough pressure from the (relatively) small contingent of home Linux users to drive this support right now, but rather the initial push is/will be from the enterprise desktop market which wants Linux support. When that pressure is exerted then we will see broader consumer adoption of Linux on the desktop which will lead to the support from the more consumer oriented devices. How do you think OS/2 kept getting hardware driver support for such a long time, even though it was a dead system on the consumer market? Because it was very widely deployed in the enterprise desktop market, vendors supported it. Though the comparison to OS/2 may seem fatalistic, remember that OS/2 died because IBM tied its own hands to be able to support Windows. Linux doesn't (and can't) have that liability. > been in the thrall of MS, bowing and scraping to have their hardware > supported. Once they realize there's money to be made from home Linux > users, watch the drivers and support start to fly. Until now, Linux has > had to scrape by on its own, reverse-engineering here, hacking there, > because the hardware vendors either: > > a) couldn't give a rat's ass about Linux because of the thinking of > people like RH's CEO. Like I said, I am annoyed at RH's CEO for voicing it. It did them no good and was harmful to public perceptions. However market realities tend to agree with it *at the moment*. -- Marcus Brubaker -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 12 17:57:35 2003 From: davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (David J Patrick) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 12:57:35 -0500 Subject: Toronto Municipal Open Source Revolution, anyone ? Message-ID: <3FB2748F.7080703@sympatico.ca> We have a new Mayor. Rumour has it that he uses linux. Whether or not that is the true, the time is ripe for a shakeup of municipal software usage. Who would spearhead such a move ? Oh..I donno.. the Toronto Lunux Users Group ? Mayoral candidate John Tory suggested that he could save seven million tomorrow simply by getting Microsoft to refund license fees that the previous Mayor (Mel) had over purchased. Apparently Mel bought ordered twice the licenses actually required. I suggest that Mel overspent by more like 90%. Why just return unused licenses, when open source solutions are ready to go. Here's what I propose; If the consensus, here at the LUG, is that Toronto is ready for open source (and vice versa) Lets; - set up a wikki, where we can collect our thoughts, arguments, links and suggestions. - find out where the thin edge of the wedge might best be placed, within the Miller government. - set up a special meeting/ presentation to pitch the idea and demonstrate software candidates. (and let's not repeat the Globe & Mail software installation fiasco; hide the pocket protectors and propeller-beenies, OK ?) If we can get our collective stuff together and sway the new Municipal government to go open source, we will save our city millions, make our city more open and secure, and set a big example, with Canada's largest city. whatdya say ? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From tchitow-PkbjNfxxIARBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 12 18:05:00 2003 From: tchitow-PkbjNfxxIARBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Martin Duclos) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 13:05:00 -0500 Subject: Toronto Municipal Open Source Revolution, anyone ? Message-ID: I think it's a sensible idea. Linux education would be a good thing for any kind of organisation. What are you looking for exactly? Poeple to prepare a sales pitch or poeple to implement it? Martin _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/bcomm&pgmarket=en-ca&RU=http%3a%2f%2fjoin.msn.com%2f%3fpage%3dmisc%2fspecialoffers%26pgmarket%3den-ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From mikehill-yqNZbDEBI9QAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 12 18:16:56 2003 From: mikehill-yqNZbDEBI9QAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Michael Hill) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 13:16:56 -0500 Subject: Toronto Municipal Open Source Revolution, anyone ? In-Reply-To: <3FB2748F.7080703-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FB2748F.7080703@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <1068661016.2494.6777.camel@dilbert.hgeng.com> On Wed, 2003-11-12 at 12:57, David J Patrick wrote: > We have a new Mayor. Rumour has it that he uses linux. Mayor-elect David Miller isn't being mistaken for kernel developer David Miller, is he? There really isn't a resemblance. Mike -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 12 18:16:15 2003 From: davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (David J Patrick) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 13:16:15 -0500 Subject: links & software candidates In-Reply-To: <3FB2748F.7080703-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FB2748F.7080703@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <3FB278EF.4020609@sympatico.ca> for your perusal; eGovernment - Canada http://www.egov.vic.gov.au/International/TheAmericas/Canada/canada.htm l e o p a r d http://leopard.sourceforge.net/ government computer news http://www.gcn.com/vol1_no1/daily-updates/24131-1.html CanOpener http://www.canopener.ca/ Novell Canada http://www.stratamp.com/novellpr/press/FY2001/nov01/advisory.html egovOS http://www.egovos.org/ Government Forge http://governmentforge.org/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 12 18:21:10 2003 From: davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (David J Patrick) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 13:21:10 -0500 Subject: Toronto Municipal Open Source Revolution, anyone ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3FB27A16.7010506@sympatico.ca> Martin Duclos wrote: > I think it's a sensible idea. Linux education would be a good thing > for any kind of organisation. What are you looking for exactly? Poeple > to prepare a sales pitch or poeple to implement it? > > Martin Lets discuss, within the LUG, what might be an optimum software scenario, for the city, might be; 1) for immediate implimentation 2) longer term Identify existing standards, groups, resources, interested OSS corporations. Then prepare presentation / demonstration outling savings, services and security improvements. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 12 18:39:01 2003 From: davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (David J Patrick) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 13:39:01 -0500 Subject: IBM vs Novell vs LUGs In-Reply-To: <3FB2748F.7080703-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FB2748F.7080703@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <3FB27E45.50700@sympatico.ca> IBM is in the business of offering government hardware / software infrastructure. So is Novell (http://www.stratamp.com/novellpr/press/FY2001/nov01/advisory.html) Does TLUG have personal connections to either of these organizations ? Which (if either) of these huge corps would best suit TO ? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From teddymills-VFlxZYho3OA at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 12 18:41:12 2003 From: teddymills-VFlxZYho3OA at public.gmane.org (Teddy Mills) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 13:41:12 -0500 Subject: Toronto Municipal Open Source Revolution, anyone ? Berlin Guinea pig In-Reply-To: <3FB27A16.7010506-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FB27A16.7010506@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <000201c3a94c$8c9d3ef0$0301a8c0@amazon> The political process instills many people with grandiose plans. But to be serious for a second, if it means saving the city, possibly millions, I mean that's good enough ROI right there. I want to learn from the city of Berlin. The mistakes and things they have learned. They got a website for what they are doing/learning etc? It could be like the blueprint for major metropolitan cities around the world. Would they share that information and data with others? -----Original Message----- From: owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org [mailto:owner-tlug at ss.org] On Behalf Of David J Patrick Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2003 1:21 PM To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Subject: Re: [TLUG]: Toronto Municipal Open Source Revolution, anyone ? Martin Duclos wrote: > I think it's a sensible idea. Linux education would be a good thing > for any kind of organisation. What are you looking for exactly? Poeple > to prepare a sales pitch or poeple to implement it? > > Martin Lets discuss, within the LUG, what might be an optimum software scenario, for the city, might be; 1) for immediate implimentation 2) longer term Identify existing standards, groups, resources, interested OSS corporations. Then prepare presentation / demonstration outling savings, services and security improvements. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 12 18:45:57 2003 From: davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (David J Patrick) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 13:45:57 -0500 Subject: links & software candidates In-Reply-To: <3FB278EF.4020609-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FB2748F.7080703@sympatico.ca> <3FB278EF.4020609@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <3FB27FE5.5030908@sympatico.ca> IBM eGovernment http://www-1.ibm.com/industries/government/ Novell Canada eGovernment http://www.novell.com/offices/americas/canada/egov/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lists-Gb8Tj4xcA4YgsBAKwltoeQ at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 12 18:52:28 2003 From: lists-Gb8Tj4xcA4YgsBAKwltoeQ at public.gmane.org (Byron Desnoyers Winmill) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 13:52:28 -0500 Subject: Toronto Municipal Open Source Revolution, anyone ? In-Reply-To: <3FB27A16.7010506-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FB27A16.7010506@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <20031112185228.GA37684@pluto.bsdwebhosting.net> If I may suggest: it may be appropriate to target your efforts on specific functions or departments. The needs of a city are so diverse that it is absurd to suggest that they can just convert to Linux and save money. It may also be more productive to ask the city to be more accessible online services. This would benefit the users of alternative operating systems, who are stuck with older machines, have disabilities. (I don't know about you, but I couldn't access election results from the city website. Are other online services that bad?) Besides, with more accessible online services, chances are the city would be better prepared for the transition to Linux (I'm imagining the whole thing ending up as a disaster because various departments cannot communicate with each other). If you go with the latter approach, please keep me in the loop. Byron. On Wed, Nov 12, 2003 at 01:21:10PM -0500, David J Patrick wrote: > Then prepare presentation / demonstration outling savings, services and > security improvements. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 12 19:00:55 2003 From: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 14:00:55 -0500 (EST) Subject: IBM vs Novell vs LUGs In-Reply-To: <3FB27E45.50700-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FB2748F.7080703@sympatico.ca> <3FB27E45.50700@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Nov 2003, David J Patrick wrote: > IBM is in the business of offering government hardware / software > infrastructure. > So is Novell > (http://www.stratamp.com/novellpr/press/FY2001/nov01/advisory.html) > Does TLUG have personal connections to either of these organizations ? Judging by my recent visit, NewTlug maintains excellent relations with IBM. > Which (if either) of these huge corps would best suit TO ? I don't think we need to be out drumming up business for any large corp. They do enough of this without our help. A consortium of interested professionals and OSS specialist firms might be able to make an approach to the mayor-elect. Rob -- Robert Brockway B.Sc. email: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org, zzbrock at uqconnect.net Linux counter project ID #16440 (http://counter.li.org) "The earth is but one country and mankind its citizens" -Baha'u'llah -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 12 19:03:55 2003 From: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 14:03:55 -0500 (EST) Subject: Toronto Municipal Open Source Revolution, anyone ? In-Reply-To: <3FB27A16.7010506-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FB27A16.7010506@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Nov 2003, David J Patrick wrote: > Lets discuss, within the LUG, what might be an optimum software > scenario, for the city, might be; > 1) for immediate implimentation > 2) longer term > > Identify existing standards, groups, resources, interested OSS corporations. We'd need to tailor it towards the point of view of a city council. Details examples of other cities and governments that have implemented OSS solutions (there are plenty). I'm a fan of thinclient and know that cities in the US and (I believe also) Europe have successfully setup thinclient to all or most of their desktops. > Then prepare presentation / demonstration outling savings, services and > security improvements. Once we're ready, get an appointment and talk to them in person - everyone turning up in suits & ties. We gotta speak their language if we want them to listen. Rob -- Robert Brockway B.Sc. email: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org, zzbrock at uqconnect.net Linux counter project ID #16440 (http://counter.li.org) "The earth is but one country and mankind its citizens" -Baha'u'llah -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 12 19:06:54 2003 From: davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (David J Patrick) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 14:06:54 -0500 Subject: Toronto Municipal Open Source Revolution, anyone ? In-Reply-To: <20031112185228.GA37684-Ko7VQgJ6otXK2ngFqW3eKNllqMFDOoLF@public.gmane.org> References: <3FB27A16.7010506@sympatico.ca> <20031112185228.GA37684@pluto.bsdwebhosting.net> Message-ID: <3FB284CE.4090604@sympatico.ca> Byron Desnoyers Winmill wrote: >If I may suggest: it may be appropriate to target your efforts on specific >functions or departments. The needs of a city are so diverse that it is >absurd to suggest that they can just convert to Linux and save money. > > I agree ! The subject is complex. The cities usage is diverse but perhapt we might develop an overview and thereby propose the most realistic and effective moves. >It may also be more productive to ask the city to be more accessible >online services. This would benefit the users of alternative operating >systems, who are stuck with older machines, have disabilities. > I agree with you here, as well. Luckily linux is a star on the server. >(I don't >know about you, but I couldn't access election results from the city >website. Are other online services that bad?) Besides, with more >accessible online services, chances are the city would be better >prepared for the transition to Linux (I'm imagining the whole thing >ending up as a disaster because various departments cannot communicate >with each other). > > On the contrary, If use of open standards are promoted, and application is server-based (non-platform specific) it should enhance interoperability. Open file formats alone would greatly improve immediate and long-term interdepartmental communication. >If you go with the latter approach, please keep me in the loop. > > Byron. but you ARE in the loop ;-) djp -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 12 19:09:29 2003 From: davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (David J Patrick) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 14:09:29 -0500 Subject: Toronto Municipal Open Source Revolution, anyone ? In-Reply-To: References: <3FB27A16.7010506@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <3FB28569.80503@sympatico.ca> > >Once we're ready, get an appointment and talk to them in person - everyone >turning up in suits & ties. We gotta speak their language if we want them >to listen. > >Rob > > > I hear beard trimmers buzzing just thinking about it ! -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From marcus.brubaker-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 12 19:12:40 2003 From: marcus.brubaker-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Marcus Brubaker) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 14:12:40 -0500 Subject: Toronto Municipal Open Source Revolution, anyone ? In-Reply-To: <3FB2748F.7080703-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FB2748F.7080703@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <1068664359.28938.163.camel@rincewind.discworld> I highly suggest that if you're serious about this (and you seem to be) that you plan a face-to-face meeting on the topic with everyone who is interested in participating. Moreover, don't just have an ad-hoc get together, make an agenda and have a list of tasks that people can work on. A bit of research will be needed for something like this. Off the top of my head, the kind of initial information you might need: 1) What kind of computing resources/services does the city use and require? Specifically, what kinds of applications are being used, by whom and for what? 2) Are there any contracts or existing licensing that would be affected? Did the city just spend a few million on Oracle? If so, will that contract permit them to switch to Oracle on Linux without significant expenditure? 3) How does the cities situation compare to other, similar organizations? Someone mentioned Berlin, but there are a lot of other, governments throughout the world that have been doing these kinds of moves. How did they fare and how do they compare to Toronto's position and requirements? 4) Who do we talk to? Failing that, where do we go to find out who to talk to and who is going to do that? That's basically just gathering information. Then you'll need to get a plan together. For instance: 1) Where does Linux make sense? Why? Precisely what do you intend to replace and with what. 2) What kinds of returns can be expected? Versus the initial transition costs? What is the comparative savings over 2 years? Over 5? Anyone with business experience know how to do a formal returns analysis? Just throwing out ideas. Good luck! -- Marcus Brubaker -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From fcsoft-rxKNY4w4koG3ikBYyZqyVg at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 12 19:19:55 2003 From: fcsoft-rxKNY4w4koG3ikBYyZqyVg at public.gmane.org (bob findlay) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 14:19:55 -0500 Subject: Toronto Municipal Open Source Revolution, anyone ? In-Reply-To: <3FB2748F.7080703-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FB2748F.7080703@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <20031112192034.D8DB4B8B2C@outbox.allstream.net> A good place to start would be to postpone hardware upgrades and upgrade Open Office instead of Office XP. PS. I know the department of Children services has already gone to a thin client solution supplied by Sun's Belleville facility. On November 12, 2003 12:57 pm, you wrote: > We have a new Mayor. Rumour has it that he uses linux. Whether or > not that is the true, the time is ripe for a shakeup of municipal > software usage. Who would spearhead such a move ? > Oh..I donno.. the Toronto Lunux Users Group ? > Mayoral candidate John Tory suggested that he could save seven > million tomorrow simply by getting Microsoft to refund license fees that > the previous Mayor (Mel) had over purchased. Apparently Mel bought > ordered twice the licenses actually required. I suggest that Mel > overspent by more like 90%. Why just return unused licenses, when open > source solutions are ready to go. > Here's what I propose; > If the consensus, here at the LUG, is that Toronto is ready for open > source (and vice versa) > Lets; > - set up a wikki, where we can collect our thoughts, arguments, links > and suggestions. > - find out where the thin edge of the wedge might best be placed, within > the Miller government. > - set up a special meeting/ presentation to pitch the idea and > demonstrate software candidates. (and let's not repeat the Globe & Mail > software installation fiasco; hide the pocket protectors and > propeller-beenies, OK ?) > If we can get our collective stuff together and sway the new > Municipal government to go open source, we will save our city millions, > make our city more open and secure, and set a big example, with Canada's > largest city. > whatdya say ? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 12 19:19:23 2003 From: davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (David J Patrick) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 14:19:23 -0500 Subject: thin clients In-Reply-To: References: <3FB27A16.7010506@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <3FB287BB.2040103@sympatico.ca> Robert Brockway wrote: >We'd need to tailor it towards the point of view of a city council. >Details examples of other cities and governments that have implemented OSS >solutions (there are plenty). I'm a fan of thinclient and know that >cities in the US and (I believe also) Europe have successfully setup >thinclient to all or most of their desktops. > > Absolutely ! The use of thin client solution should represent HUGE savings in both hardware and system adminstration, while freeing government employees from being chained to ONE desktop machine. Which mega corp is it (Sun ? IBM ?) that is using thin client with passcards to enable client mobility ? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From sbarbour-uX10M8IjeSmR85p3v6+8aQ at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 12 19:24:29 2003 From: sbarbour-uX10M8IjeSmR85p3v6+8aQ at public.gmane.org (Steve Barbour) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 14:24:29 -0500 Subject: Toronto Municipal Open Source Revolution, anyone ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: If they are looking for Systems Administration Software and Intrusion Detection for Linux I'll gladly throw my hat in the ring and help with the "sales" process. Steve Barbour -----Original Message----- From: owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org [mailto:owner-tlug at ss.org]On Behalf Of Robert Brockway Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2003 2:04 PM To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Subject: Re: [TLUG]: Toronto Municipal Open Source Revolution, anyone ? On Wed, 12 Nov 2003, David J Patrick wrote: > Lets discuss, within the LUG, what might be an optimum software > scenario, for the city, might be; > 1) for immediate implimentation > 2) longer term > > Identify existing standards, groups, resources, interested OSS corporations. We'd need to tailor it towards the point of view of a city council. Details examples of other cities and governments that have implemented OSS solutions (there are plenty). I'm a fan of thinclient and know that cities in the US and (I believe also) Europe have successfully setup thinclient to all or most of their desktops. > Then prepare presentation / demonstration outling savings, services and > security improvements. Once we're ready, get an appointment and talk to them in person - everyone turning up in suits & ties. We gotta speak their language if we want them to listen. Rob -- Robert Brockway B.Sc. email: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org, zzbrock at uqconnect.net Linux counter project ID #16440 (http://counter.li.org) "The earth is but one country and mankind its citizens" -Baha'u'llah -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From mcg2-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 12 19:32:53 2003 From: mcg2-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Matthew Godycki) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 14:32:53 -0500 Subject: thin clients Message-ID: <20031112193253.PICE159496.web01-imail.rogers.com@localhost> > > From: David J Patrick > Date: 2003/11/12 Wed PM 02:19:23 EST > To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > Subject: [TLUG]: thin clients > > Robert Brockway wrote: > > >We'd need to tailor it towards the point of view of a city council. > >Details examples of other cities and governments that have implemented OSS > >solutions (there are plenty). I'm a fan of thinclient and know that > >cities in the US and (I believe also) Europe have successfully setup > >thinclient to all or most of their desktops. > > > > > Absolutely ! The use of thin client solution should represent HUGE > savings in both hardware and system adminstration, while freeing > government employees from being chained to ONE desktop machine. > Which mega corp is it (Sun ? IBM ?) that is using thin client with > passcards to enable client mobility ? SUN with their SUN Ray boxes, I believe. > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 12 19:32:29 2003 From: davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (David J Patrick) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 14:32:29 -0500 Subject: IBM vs Novell vs LUGs In-Reply-To: References: <3FB2748F.7080703@sympatico.ca> <3FB27E45.50700@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <3FB28ACD.6080800@sympatico.ca> Robert Brockway wrote: >On Wed, 12 Nov 2003, David J Patrick wrote: > > > >>IBM is in the business of offering government hardware / software >>infrastructure. >>So is Novell >>(http://www.stratamp.com/novellpr/press/FY2001/nov01/advisory.html) >> Does TLUG have personal connections to either of these organizations ? >> >> > >Judging by my recent visit, NewTlug maintains excellent relations with >IBM. > > I smell a cross posting coming on .. > > >>Which (if either) of these huge corps would best suit TO ? >> >> > >I don't think we need to be out drumming up business for any large corp. >They do enough of this without our help. A consortium of interested >professionals and OSS specialist firms might be able to make an approach >to the mayor-elect. > >Rob > > > Maybe said consortium could put together an awesome action plan. On the other hand, if one of the linux lovin' leviathans has a coherent, compelling concept (!) It might not be such a bad thing. It is my understanding that most of the government defection have been in partnership with a large linux solutions provider (IBM, Suse etc) Hey, step ONE would be to find out what wheels are already in motion ! -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 12 19:37:12 2003 From: davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (David J Patrick) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 14:37:12 -0500 Subject: Toronto Municipal Open Source Revolution, anyone ? In-Reply-To: <3FB2748F.7080703-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FB2748F.7080703@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <3FB28BE8.5020207@sympatico.ca> If you; a) feel that a move to open source software is important. b) have server resources available. c) know how to set up and maintain a wikki. get ON it, man ! this thread's gonna bust under such a heavy subject. djp -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 12 19:47:25 2003 From: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 14:47:25 -0500 (EST) Subject: thin clients In-Reply-To: <3FB287BB.2040103-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FB27A16.7010506@sympatico.ca> <3FB287BB.2040103@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Nov 2003, David J Patrick wrote: > Absolutely ! The use of thin client solution should represent HUGE > savings in both hardware and system adminstration, while freeing > government employees from being chained to ONE desktop machine. > Which mega corp is it (Sun ? IBM ?) that is using thin client with > passcards to enable client mobility ? Not sure if it is the one you are thinking about but Sun did this with the Sunrays. This might be an example of how not to market thinclient though :) Rob -- Robert Brockway B.Sc. email: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org, zzbrock at uqconnect.net Linux counter project ID #16440 (http://counter.li.org) "The earth is but one country and mankind its citizens" -Baha'u'llah -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 12 19:51:52 2003 From: davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (David J Patrick) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 14:51:52 -0500 Subject: thin clients In-Reply-To: References: <3FB27A16.7010506@sympatico.ca> <3FB287BB.2040103@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <3FB28F58.1080802@sympatico.ca> >Not sure if it is the one you are thinking about but Sun did this with the >Sunrays. This might be an example of how not to market thinclient though >:) > >Rob > > > Whatdya mean, Rob ? Sunray = bad ? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 12 20:04:08 2003 From: davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (David J Patrick) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 15:04:08 -0500 Subject: Toronto Municipal Open Source Revolution, anyone ? In-Reply-To: <1068664359.28938.163.camel-eTg7c9BlEq95hrpxxnI5yFifK/mc/01a@public.gmane.org> References: <3FB2748F.7080703@sympatico.ca> <1068664359.28938.163.camel@rincewind.discworld> Message-ID: <3FB29238.4010709@sympatico.ca> Marcus Brubaker wrote: >I highly suggest that if you're serious about this (and you seem to be) >that you plan a face-to-face meeting on the topic with everyone who is >interested in participating. Moreover, don't just have an ad-hoc get >together, make an agenda and have a list of tasks that people can work >on. A bit of research will be needed for something like this. > >Off the top of my head, the kind of initial information you might need: > >1) What kind of computing resources/services does the city use and >require? Specifically, what kinds of applications are being used, by >whom and for what? > >2) Are there any contracts or existing licensing that would be >affected? Did the city just spend a few million on Oracle? If so, will >that contract permit them to switch to Oracle on Linux without >significant expenditure? > >3) How does the cities situation compare to other, similar >organizations? Someone mentioned Berlin, but there are a lot of other, >governments throughout the world that have been doing these kinds of >moves. How did they fare and how do they compare to Toronto's position >and requirements? > >4) Who do we talk to? Failing that, where do we go to find out who to >talk to and who is going to do that? > >That's basically just gathering information. Then you'll need to get a >plan together. For instance: > >1) Where does Linux make sense? Why? Precisely what do you intend to >replace and with what. > >2) What kinds of returns can be expected? Versus the initial transition >costs? What is the comparative savings over 2 years? Over 5? Anyone >with business experience know how to do a formal returns analysis? > >Just throwing out ideas. Good luck! > > > You are SO right ! I'm trying to incite a wikki ! In advance of such a meeting. I feel that would be the best way to roll this snowball. The LUG has some some of the finest IT brains on the planet, as well as socially active and forward thinking folks, but all this brillance has to have a workable container. I would do it myself, but I don't have the resources or skill. djp -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 12 20:17:33 2003 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 15:17:33 -0500 Subject: time reference servers? In-Reply-To: References: <20031112082704.GA661@node1.opengeometry.net> <3FB25919.3080808@yahoo.ca> Message-ID: <20031112201733.GA430@node1.opengeometry.net> On Wed, Nov 12, 2003 at 11:36:18AM -0500, Robert Brockway wrote: > On Wed, 12 Nov 2003, Stephen Allen wrote: > > There is an excellent web page: > > > > . > > > > Shows the public stratum 1 and 2 servers by country. > > It's important to avoid polling off stratum 1 servers. Even using > stratem 2 servers should be avoided where possible (which should be > pretty much always). If the ISP has an NTP server use that, otherwise > use one of the publically available servers. My ISP (eol.ca) doesn't provide any port 13/37/123 services. and presumably can handle lots of connections, because they synchronize all Apple and Windows machines. But, still, it just doesn't feel right to use those... -- William Park, Open Geometry Consulting, Linux solution for data management and processing. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 12 20:22:13 2003 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 15:22:13 -0500 Subject: combining multiple PostScript or PDF files In-Reply-To: <3FA6CA0E.D937B981-hKuJ9UrQZDM@public.gmane.org> References: <3FA69B0D.BDE8A06A@qef.com> <3FA6CA0E.D937B981@qef.com> Message-ID: <20031112202213.GA18293@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Nov 03, 2003 at 04:35:10PM -0500, David Tilbrook wrote: > Lennart Sorensen wrote: > > mpage might do it. Maybe a2ps? > > mapge and a2ps create ps files, but don't read them. That is not what mpage's documentation says. Lennart Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 12 20:27:48 2003 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 15:27:48 -0500 Subject: Toronto Municipal Open Source Revolution, anyone ? In-Reply-To: <3FB29238.4010709-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FB2748F.7080703@sympatico.ca> <1068664359.28938.163.camel@rincewind.discworld> <3FB29238.4010709@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <20031112202748.GA514@node1.opengeometry.net> On Wed, Nov 12, 2003 at 03:04:08PM -0500, David J Patrick wrote: > Marcus Brubaker wrote: > > >I highly suggest that if you're serious about this (and you seem to be) > >that you plan a face-to-face meeting on the topic with everyone who is > >interested in participating. Moreover, don't just have an ad-hoc get > >together, make an agenda and have a list of tasks that people can work > >on. A bit of research will be needed for something like this. > >4) Who do we talk to? Failing that, where do we go to find out who to > >talk to and who is going to do that? This is the most critical aspect. Maybe there is someone at the new City Hall who is interested in all this. If not, then we're wasting time. -- William Park, Open Geometry Consulting, Linux solution for data management and processing. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From zhunt-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 12 21:29:25 2003 From: zhunt-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (Zoltan) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 15:29:25 -0600 Subject: Toronto Municipal Open Source Revolution, anyone ? References: <3FB2748F.7080703@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <015801c3a964$0c1d0cc0$aa09e540@D2XGQ811> Great idea, I was thinking along the same lines since Monday evening :) I went through this link a while back to take a look at how the EU is approaching moving from the closed to open-source set-up. Looks quite detailed. http://europa.eu.int/ISPO/ida/jsps/index.jsp?fuseAction=showDocument&parent=news&documentID=1647 or directly: http://europa.eu.int/ISPO/ida/export/files/en/1618.pdf I'd certainly like to help out with anything TLUG come up with, I think this could be a good opportunity. Zoltan ----- Original Message ----- From: "David J Patrick" To: Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2003 11:57 AM Subject: [TLUG]: Toronto Municipal Open Source Revolution, anyone ? > We have a new Mayor. Rumour has it that he uses linux. Whether or > not that is the true, the time is ripe for a shakeup of municipal > software usage. Who would spearhead such a move ? > Oh..I donno.. the Toronto Lunux Users Group ? > Mayoral candidate John Tory suggested that he could save seven > million tomorrow simply by getting Microsoft to refund license fees that > the previous Mayor (Mel) had over purchased. Apparently Mel bought > ordered twice the licenses actually required. I suggest that Mel > overspent by more like 90%. Why just return unused licenses, when open > source solutions are ready to go. > Here's what I propose; > If the consensus, here at the LUG, is that Toronto is ready for open > source (and vice versa) > Lets; > - set up a wikki, where we can collect our thoughts, arguments, links > and suggestions. > - find out where the thin edge of the wedge might best be placed, within > the Miller government. > - set up a special meeting/ presentation to pitch the idea and > demonstrate software candidates. (and let's not repeat the Globe & Mail > software installation fiasco; hide the pocket protectors and > propeller-beenies, OK ?) > If we can get our collective stuff together and sway the new > Municipal government to go open source, we will save our city millions, > make our city more open and secure, and set a big example, with Canada's > largest city. > whatdya say ? > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From zhunt-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 12 21:31:58 2003 From: zhunt-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (Zoltan) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 15:31:58 -0600 Subject: Toronto Municipal Open Source Revolution, anyone ? References: <3FB2748F.7080703@sympatico.ca> <1068664359.28938.163.camel@rincewind.discworld> <3FB29238.4010709@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <016601c3a964$66f1eb20$aa09e540@D2XGQ811> I did a logo for the Toronto Wireless Access Point Association a while back, if you need a logo, just ask. Zoltan www.zee4.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "David J Patrick" To: Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2003 2:04 PM Subject: Re: [TLUG]: Toronto Municipal Open Source Revolution, anyone ? > Marcus Brubaker wrote: > > >I highly suggest that if you're serious about this (and you seem to be) > >that you plan a face-to-face meeting on the topic with everyone who is > >interested in participating. Moreover, don't just have an ad-hoc get > >together, make an agenda and have a list of tasks that people can work > >on. A bit of research will be needed for something like this. > > > >Off the top of my head, the kind of initial information you might need: > > > >1) What kind of computing resources/services does the city use and > >require? Specifically, what kinds of applications are being used, by > >whom and for what? > > > >2) Are there any contracts or existing licensing that would be > >affected? Did the city just spend a few million on Oracle? If so, will > >that contract permit them to switch to Oracle on Linux without > >significant expenditure? > > > >3) How does the cities situation compare to other, similar > >organizations? Someone mentioned Berlin, but there are a lot of other, > >governments throughout the world that have been doing these kinds of > >moves. How did they fare and how do they compare to Toronto's position > >and requirements? > > > >4) Who do we talk to? Failing that, where do we go to find out who to > >talk to and who is going to do that? > > > >That's basically just gathering information. Then you'll need to get a > >plan together. For instance: > > > >1) Where does Linux make sense? Why? Precisely what do you intend to > >replace and with what. > > > >2) What kinds of returns can be expected? Versus the initial transition > >costs? What is the comparative savings over 2 years? Over 5? Anyone > >with business experience know how to do a formal returns analysis? > > > >Just throwing out ideas. Good luck! > > > > > > > You are SO right ! > I'm trying to incite a wikki ! In advance of such a meeting. > I feel that would be the best way to roll this snowball. > The LUG has some some of the finest IT brains on the planet, as well as > socially active and forward thinking folks, but all this brillance has > to have a workable container. > I would do it myself, but I don't have the resources or skill. > djp > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 12 20:36:38 2003 From: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 15:36:38 -0500 (EST) Subject: thin clients In-Reply-To: <3FB28F58.1080802-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FB27A16.7010506@sympatico.ca> <3FB287BB.2040103@sympatico.ca> <3FB28F58.1080802@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Nov 2003, David J Patrick wrote: > Whatdya mean, Rob ? Sunray = bad ? No, actually I quite liked them[1], but they never seemed to get a foothold in the market. I got the impression that either Sun didn't market them well or didn't market them to the right people[2]. [1] The installation was alot messier than it needed to be. I installed quite a few Sunray servers earlier on (mostly on to E450s, etc) and they would dump stuff all over the filesystem including some demos and toys that weren't needed. I was doing a lot of stuff with thinclients in those days too and contrasted this to how I setup XTerminals to boot - everything neatly put away in the one place. [2] We borrowed to Sunrays from sun to demo on a client site once. When I got to the site, with them still boxed up, I noticed one of them had the word "broken" written on the side. The client and I noticed this at the same time. This went over well with the client :) The early installation procedure would point blank fail to install using an le (10Mbit/sec) NIC on the server. Unfortunately this meant I had to jump hoops to get a test environment going before I went out on a client site to do my first Sunray install back in 2000. Cheers, Rob -- Robert Brockway B.Sc. email: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org, zzbrock at uqconnect.net Linux counter project ID #16440 (http://counter.li.org) "The earth is but one country and mankind its citizens" -Baha'u'llah -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 12 20:55:21 2003 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 15:55:21 -0500 (EST) Subject: Printing problem Message-ID: <42545.24.192.219.224.1068670521.squirrel@host.bettermarkets.com> Hi all, I have setup a Redhat 9.0 machine (fully updated) which has a Canon BJC4300 printer. There is a Win98 laptop here as well. The printer is on the Linux bos of the parallel port (lp0, iirc). I had the printer working just fine. I installed a second printer also to use lp0 using a raw driver that was shared in Samba (needed to use raw because the win98 tried to format the print job and then so did samba again). All was good and both machines printed fine for a day or two. Now, I can't get either to print at all. I am in the middle of yet again removing and reinstalling the printer using Redhat's printer configuration util. Does anyone have any insight into what might be wrong? Thanks! Madison -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From Tom-QXpTDD2AffPSUeElwK9/Pw at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 12 21:03:24 2003 From: Tom-QXpTDD2AffPSUeElwK9/Pw at public.gmane.org (Tom) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 16:03:24 -0500 Subject: Regarding UserLinux, let's stop slagging Red Hat! References: <20031111193001.07be5227.joehill@sympatico.ca> <20031112053337.7653a8bd.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: "JoeHill" wrote in message news:20031112053337.7653a8bd.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FovoNgiiBKvA at public.gmane.org > On Tue, 11 Nov 2003 20:02:59 -0500 > "Tom" uttered: > > > Some people say this because they think that pushing home users to > > Linux too soon will be bad for Linux: one bad experience and they'll > > never be back. They are holding Linux back to help it (in their > > opinion). > > > > Isn't that why Red Hat is saying it? Or is there some commercial > > angle that I'm not seeing? Some reason why they don't want Linux to > > succeed on the desktop? > > I don't have the foggiest notion as to what could possess a person to > say something so stupid, so I won't speculate as to his reasoning. > > In the end, it is this timidity which gives MS the edge, this FUD they > are so famous for and which seems to have infected one seemingly > intelligent CEO. I don't think the CEO of RedHat has been won over by MS FUD. I'm sure he has a better reason then that. It is probably either: (a) he really believes it, or (b) something to do with corporate strategy. 95% of the time it is (b). But I also believe that he really does want Linux to succeed. Tom. > > -- > JoeHill > Registered Linux user #282046 > Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > Dying is a very dull, dreary affair. My advice to you is to have > nothing whatever to do with it. > -- W. Somerset Maughm, his last words > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 12 16:55:10 2003 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter L. Peres) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 18:55:10 +0200 (IST) Subject: Regarding UserLinux, let's stop slagging Red Hat! In-Reply-To: <20031111193001.07be5227.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <20031111193001.07be5227.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Nov 2003, JoeHill wrote: > On Tue, 11 Nov 2003 18:55:40 -0500 > "Tom" uttered: > > > I think the purists should stop > > fighting the non-purists and start fighting MS. > > I think the problem some people are having with RH right now is > primarily with their CEO remarking that home users should stick with > Windows, that Linux is not ready for the home desktop. > > Doesn't sound like he's fighting MS, or helping Linux in general, > therefore the slagging. Personally, I wouldn't touch RH with a 10 foot > pole, and yes, for that reason alone. Imho it sounds like he found out what it's like to offer remote service for people whose eyes glaze over at the mere sight of a backslash on a command line. Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From matt-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 12 23:24:59 2003 From: matt-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Matthew Rice) Date: 12 Nov 2003 18:24:59 -0500 Subject: Linux development position to be had.. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Robert Brockway writes: > > Oh Yeah, he gets a lot of comments like that.. > > I used to work with a guy names Jim Carey. He was always getting > comments. For a fun example of this phenomena see the movie "Office > Space". It is well worth a look for lots of other reasons too. Bounder: Ah. Good morning. I'm Bounder of Adventure. Tourist: My name is Smoke-Too-Much. -- matthew rice starnix inc. phone: 905-771-0017 x242 thornhill, ontario, canada http://www.starnix.com professional linux services & products -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From matt-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 12 23:28:12 2003 From: matt-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Matthew Rice) Date: 12 Nov 2003 18:28:12 -0500 Subject: Toronto Municipal Open Source Revolution, anyone ? In-Reply-To: <1068664359.28938.163.camel-eTg7c9BlEq95hrpxxnI5yFifK/mc/01a@public.gmane.org> References: <3FB2748F.7080703@sympatico.ca> <1068664359.28938.163.camel@rincewind.discworld> Message-ID: Marcus Brubaker writes: > I highly suggest that if you're serious about this (and you seem to be) > that you plan a face-to-face meeting on the topic with everyone who is > interested in participating. Moreover, don't just have an ad-hoc get > together, make an agenda and have a list of tasks that people can work > on. A bit of research will be needed for something like this. And if you are _really_ serious, contact me offline. A couple CLUE [www.linux.ca] guys want to have undertake an advocacy plan geared around the upcoming federal election. Kill two birds...? -- matthew rice starnix inc. phone: 905-771-0017 x242 thornhill, ontario, canada http://www.starnix.com professional linux services & products -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From marcus.brubaker-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 12 23:29:30 2003 From: marcus.brubaker-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Marcus Brubaker) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 18:29:30 -0500 Subject: thin clients In-Reply-To: <3FB287BB.2040103-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FB27A16.7010506@sympatico.ca> <3FB287BB.2040103@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <1068679770.28938.168.camel@rincewind.discworld> On Wed, 2003-11-12 at 14:19, David J Patrick wrote: > Robert Brockway wrote: > > >We'd need to tailor it towards the point of view of a city council. > >Details examples of other cities and governments that have implemented OSS > >solutions (there are plenty). I'm a fan of thinclient and know that > >cities in the US and (I believe also) Europe have successfully setup > >thinclient to all or most of their desktops. > > > > > Absolutely ! The use of thin client solution should represent HUGE > savings in both hardware and system adminstration, while freeing > government employees from being chained to ONE desktop machine. > Which mega corp is it (Sun ? IBM ?) that is using thin client with > passcards to enable client mobility ? Sun is doing this right now in their own offices. McNeally was talking about it in an interview recently. Remember to give thin clients (or any tech for that matter, no matter how cool) a good analysis for each situation though. They make sense in some settings, but definitely not in others and pushing the wrong tech for a job is a sure way to end up with bad results either way. Basically, for each office ask how much client mobility is really worth vs how much it may (or may not) cost. It's tempting to throw all OSS solutions and neat new technologies into a proposal like this, but doing so is not the way to get a good, sound, manageable system in the end and doing so could hurt your chances of being taken seriously. -- Marcus Brubaker -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From blanco-S8qYAnHmZTt34ZA5RureAJ4VBq8PJc8F at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 13 00:16:16 2003 From: blanco-S8qYAnHmZTt34ZA5RureAJ4VBq8PJc8F at public.gmane.org (Max Blanco) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 19:16:16 -0500 (EST) Subject: Toronto Municipal Open Source Revolution, anyone ? In-Reply-To: <20031112202748.GA514-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20031112202748.GA514@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Nov 2003, William Park wrote: [snip] > Maybe there is someone at the new City Hall who is interested in all > this. If not, then we're wasting time. I don't quite agree. Who wouldn't be interested in saving $100 million right off the bat? This would be a nice feather in someone's budgetary hat... a young go-getter on staff... There are two areas I'm interested in right now that seem to be eating up all our tax dollars (in an incremental sense... they seem to get a bigger slice of the yearly pie) one is computers, the other is medical technology. The average person does NOT understand computers. Hence, this is a golden opportunity for vultures to feast. Heck, the average councillor does not understand computers. When I look at it, the average office worker needs a) word processor b) email c) push database client d) spreadsheet(?). This requires a CRT monitor, a used computer, an ethernet card, a 1 gig drive, a keyboard, and linux. A CD install could do this lickety-split on *existing* machines. The city IT staff would need classes and support to make the transition. The key would be that $100 million can be split off into $90 million savings and $10 million linux training services. $10 million buys a lot of linux training services. This will no doubt fail if too much is bitten off at one go, so start small, with one department or building, or even one office. The CD install in a fine-tuned presentation: bingo. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From blanco-S8qYAnHmZTt34ZA5RureAJ4VBq8PJc8F at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 13 00:52:39 2003 From: blanco-S8qYAnHmZTt34ZA5RureAJ4VBq8PJc8F at public.gmane.org (Max Blanco) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 19:52:39 -0500 (EST) Subject: Toronto Municipal Open Source Revolution, anyone ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 12 Nov 2003, Matthew Rice wrote: > Marcus Brubaker writes: > > I highly suggest that if you're serious about this (and you seem to be) > > that you plan a face-to-face meeting on the topic with everyone who is > > interested in participating. Moreover, don't just have an ad-hoc get > > together, make an agenda and have a list of tasks that people can work > > on. A bit of research will be needed for something like this. > > And if you are _really_ serious, contact me offline. A couple CLUE > [www.linux.ca] guys want to have undertake an advocacy plan geared around the > upcoming federal election. Kill two birds...? > Can the twiki machine forward daily synopses/updates to the tlug listserv so we all keep up to date? I support Marcus' idea: community group meetings never seem to get off the ground because they don't seem to know the value of open agendae published beforehand, and properly taken minutes. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 13 01:10:22 2003 From: davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (David J Patrick) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 20:10:22 -0500 Subject: Toronto Municipal Open Source Revolution, anyone ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3FB2D9FE.7020003@sympatico.ca> Max Blanco wrote: >On Wed, 12 Nov 2003, William Park wrote: > >[snip] > > > >>Maybe there is someone at the new City Hall who is interested in all >>this. If not, then we're wasting time. >> >> > >I don't quite agree. Who wouldn't be interested in saving $100 million >right off the bat? This would be a nice feather in someone's budgetary >hat... a young go-getter on staff... > >There are two areas I'm interested in right now that seem to be eating up >all our tax dollars (in an incremental sense... they seem to get a bigger >slice of the yearly pie) one is computers, the other is medical >technology. > both of which can be best served with existing distributed open-source solutions. > The average person does NOT understand computers. Hence, >this is a golden opportunity for vultures to feast. Heck, the average >councillor does not understand computers. > > nor should they have to ! If the IT department is doing its' job, everyone else should be free to use the tools without thinking about it. >When I look at it, the average office worker needs a) word processor b) >email c) push database client d) spreadsheet(?). This requires a CRT >monitor, a used computer, an ethernet card, a 1 gig drive, a keyboard, and >linux. A CD install could do this lickety-split on *existing* machines. > > The average office worker who needs a)b)c)and d) might find thin-client the best answer; skip the 1 gig drive and use a fleet of yesterdays hardware. access your files (and cuddly kitten desktop) from anywhere ! Even wireless ! All important files within reach, yet secure and backed up ! All (most) system administration done centrally and multiplied to the user base. Only a small minority of users will require computing horsepower beyond the reach of thin client set-up. >The city IT staff would need classes and support to make the transition. > >The key would be that $100 million can be split off into $90 million >savings and $10 million linux training services. $10 million buys a lot >of linux training services. > >This will no doubt fail if too much is bitten off at one go, so >start small, with one department or building, or even one office. > >The CD install in a fine-tuned presentation: bingo. > > I agree that the presentation could be a customized bootable distro, but the "big picture" solution will be a lot more complex. djp -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 13 01:28:06 2003 From: davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (David J Patrick) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 20:28:06 -0500 Subject: wikki In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3FB2DE26.6020900@sympatico.ca> ---snip--- >Can the twiki machine forward daily synopses/updates to the tlug listserv >so we all keep up to date? > > The wacky twikki wikki can simply be logged onto, just like any webpage. The difference is that it can be edited by any number of users. And yes, there may well be a way to notify a list with updates. >I support Marcus' idea: community group meetings never seem to get off the >ground because they don't seem to know the value of open >agendae published beforehand, and properly taken minutes. > > Yes, but another challenge to effective group meetings is the inescapable fact that we all have lives ! It gets in the way, man ! We WILL have meetings, there WILL be agendas and minutes taken, but in the mean time a mode that can capture a spare 15mins inspiration (or an intense all-nighter) must be put in place. Something we can contribute to when we have the opportunity and take advantage of when we have the need. The working wikkis I have seen lately (knoppix docs, OSDF etc) result in a clean, coherent, collaborative working document. A strong wikki will be the backbone of productive group get-togethers. > >-- >The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org >TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 13 01:47:30 2003 From: davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (David J Patrick) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 20:47:30 -0500 Subject: Toronto Municipal Open Source Revolution, anyone ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3FB2E2B2.4050308@sympatico.ca> Steve Barbour wrote: >If they are looking for Systems Administration Software and Intrusion >Detection for Linux I'll gladly throw my hat in the ring and help with the >"sales" process. > >Steve Barbour > > > Security and ease of admistration are the real keys to acceptance of this idea, Steve. If you have the savvy and a hat to throw ... the ring is forming ! djp -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From tim-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 13 01:52:37 2003 From: tim-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Tim Writer) Date: 12 Nov 2003 20:52:37 -0500 Subject: OT: Get out there and vote! In-Reply-To: <200311112110.24455.fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org> References: <200311112110.24455.fraser@wehave.net> Message-ID: Fraser Campbell writes: > On November 11, 2003 03:32 pm, Tim Writer wrote: > > > I'm willing to be corrected but, AFAIK, you don't have to be a Canadian > > citizen to vote in a municipal election, just a resident. > > Consider yourself corrected ;-) > > http://www.toronto.ca/vote2003/faq.htm#who Interesting. I assumed you didn't need to be a citizen because, even though I've yet to find my way onto the municipal voting list, I've never been asked for proof of citizenship. For example, on Monday I just showed them my driver's licence. Also, the form they ask you to sign, certifying the information you've given is correct, etc., doesn't say anything about citizenship. While I realize it's important to make the voting process as easy as possible, the current systems seems a bit too open to abuse. -- tim writer starnix inc. 905.771.0017 ext. 225 thornhill, ontario, canada http://www.starnix.com professional linux services & products -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From blsonne-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 13 02:03:08 2003 From: blsonne-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Byron Sonne) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 21:03:08 -0500 Subject: OT: Get out there and vote! In-Reply-To: References: <200311112110.24455.fraser@wehave.net> Message-ID: <3FB2E65C.3070605@rogers.com> > While I realize it's important to make the voting process as easy as > possible, the current systems seems a bit too open to abuse. Yeah, but with municipal elections I look at it this way: non-citizens are (hopefully) working here and paying taxes here, so they do participate in the workings of the machine and have earned some kind of right, however limited, to participate. Representation seems to follow taxation, one hopes! -- For good, return good. For evil, return justice. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From blanco-S8qYAnHmZTt34ZA5RureAJ4VBq8PJc8F at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 13 02:28:00 2003 From: blanco-S8qYAnHmZTt34ZA5RureAJ4VBq8PJc8F at public.gmane.org (Max Blanco) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 21:28:00 -0500 (EST) Subject: OT: Get out there and vote! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 12 Nov 2003, Tim Writer wrote: > > http://www.toronto.ca/vote2003/faq.htm#who > > Interesting. I assumed you didn't need to be a citizen because, even though > I've yet to find my way onto the municipal voting list, I've never been asked > for proof of citizenship. For example, on Monday I just showed them my > driver's licence. Also, the form they ask you to sign, certifying the > information you've given is correct, etc., doesn't say anything about > citizenship. > > While I realize it's important to make the voting process as easy as > possible, the current systems seems a bit too open to abuse. I am much more afraid of systematic abuses, such as might happen with (computational and other) machinery: i.e. electoral fraud by people in high places taking advantage of the uninitiated. If the system has worked for 125 years as it is (no proof of citizenship, etc.) I am just as likely to leave it be. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From taavi-LbuTpDkqzNzXI80/IeQp7B2eb7JE58TQ at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 13 02:30:29 2003 From: taavi-LbuTpDkqzNzXI80/IeQp7B2eb7JE58TQ at public.gmane.org (Taavi Burns) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 21:30:29 -0500 Subject: linux = impossible? (no offense meant!) In-Reply-To: References: <20031112002046.GC15848@hatefulsheep.ym.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> Message-ID: <20031113023029.GB17240@hatefulsheep.ym.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> On Wed, Nov 12, 2003 at 12:41:29AM -0500, Byron Q. Desnoyers Winmill wrote: > because a lot of stuff is being crammed into bundles. Don't ask me how > this is any different from resource forks (more portable, but it is > serves the same function), but the drag'n drop installation is a lot > better IMHO. More portable and you can browse the resources without any specially added software. Though the resource forks are still used; copying a .app to a *NIX box with FTP and then back renders the .app useless. > I'm only running Mac OS X and Linux on this machine. BTW, have you had > any luck with XFree86 under Linux on your PowerBook? It worked fine for me(*). Closing the lid even made the pb go to sleep without a hitch. :) A short Google search turned up one particular webpage w.r.t Gentoo on Apple laptops which was most helpful. With very little work all the funky buttons work, too. :) > This is the bit which really impressed me: yes the standard utilities > are there, but Apple included their own CLI utilities for the netinfo > database, managing disk images, setting up AppleTalk, and certainly > others. You can certainly use Mac OS X without the GUI, but you may > as well use Linux if you are going to to that far. (Why lock yourself > into a subset of the available applications or restrictive licenses?) Because the users of Macintosh labs like their Macintoshes. There are still applications which are not available on Linux (Denemo and Rosegarden are NOT replacements for Finale and Sibelius, and many graphic design people would have large complaints about the GIMP versus Photoshop). > The GUI isn't an artform, and that is the whole point of Apple's HI > guidelines. The GUI should provide a consistent interface, and be based > on solid research. Unfortunately, X11 applications do not offer either, > which may be why people find Linux difficult to use (recall, they think > the GUI is the OS). Good point. Many of the older X interfaces and Windows interfaces aren't even works of art, though. Apple seems to have managed to do both good science and art, and have the technology to back it up. I tried burning a CD with some random Roxio CD burning utility, and could barely comprehend what it wanted me to do. If I didn't know how CDs were actually burnt, I'd have been totally lost. Even the old EasyCD Creator was easier to use. Then there's iTunes: pure bliss to burn audio with! -- taa /*eof*/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lists-Gb8Tj4xcA4YgsBAKwltoeQ at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 13 03:48:12 2003 From: lists-Gb8Tj4xcA4YgsBAKwltoeQ at public.gmane.org (Byron Desnoyers Winmill) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 22:48:12 -0500 Subject: linux = impossible? (no offense meant!) In-Reply-To: <20031113023029.GB17240-9xiANKxwco42bRTacqR3/JR8nzhMnQZF/mqnPsBvoffFpvyHdVPjngC/G2K4zDHf@public.gmane.org> References: <20031112002046.GC15848@hatefulsheep.ym.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> <20031113023029.GB17240@hatefulsheep.ym.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> Message-ID: <20031113034812.GA58845@pluto.bsdwebhosting.net> On Wed, Nov 12, 2003 at 09:30:29PM -0500, Taavi Burns wrote: > Though the resource forks are still used; copying a .app to a *NIX box > with FTP and then back renders the .app useless. If you are using HFS+, is the data fork and /rsrc is the resource fork. With a little creativity, you can backup HFS partitions with tar and friends. > It worked fine for me(*). Closing the lid even made the pb go to sleep > without a hitch. :) I have an Nvidia chip, so getting X11 to work properly required compiling XFree86 from the latest sources. (So how do I manage dependencies in Debian now? A lot of stuff depends upon XFree86, and forcing packages to install with dpkg is a pain.) It also lookes like the Nvidia chip hoses sleep mode, since it may not be able to wake up again. > Because the users of Macintosh labs like their Macintoshes. Of course those applications assume that you have the Quartz server up and running. Darwin has very few benefits over Linux. > Apple seems to have managed to do both good science and art, and have > the technology to back it up. I would call Aqua a great piece of industrial design (ie. it looks great). I cringe at calling it art. > I tried burning a CD with some random Roxio CD burning utility Is there something wrong with Mac OS X's CD burning tools? Byron. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 13 04:07:56 2003 From: henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org (Henry Spencer) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 23:07:56 -0500 (EST) Subject: Toronto Municipal Open Source Revolution, anyone ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Nov 2003, Max Blanco wrote: > I support Marcus' idea: community group meetings never seem to get off the > ground because they don't seem to know the value of open > agendae published beforehand, and properly taken minutes. Almost every worthwhile meeting has one or more *decisions* as its goal; a meeting that doesn't end in a decision is probably a waste of time. Most every other purpose for holding a meeting is actually better accomplished some other way. You need a prior agenda so everyone knows what needs to be done, all necessary supporting information can be present, and everyone can see whether the meeting is on track or not. Henry Spencer henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 13 04:57:30 2003 From: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 23:57:30 -0500 (EST) Subject: thin clients In-Reply-To: <1068679770.28938.168.camel-eTg7c9BlEq95hrpxxnI5yFifK/mc/01a@public.gmane.org> References: <3FB27A16.7010506@sympatico.ca> <3FB287BB.2040103@sympatico.ca> <1068679770.28938.168.camel@rincewind.discworld> Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Nov 2003, Marcus Brubaker wrote: > Remember to give thin clients (or any tech for that matter, no matter > how cool) a good analysis for each situation though. They make sense in I agree 100% I always say that thinclient is the solution to a sizeable set of problems, but not all problems. > It's tempting to throw all OSS solutions and neat new technologies into > a proposal like this, but doing so is not the way to get a good, sound, > manageable system in the end and doing so could hurt your chances of > being taken seriously. Definately. Best technology for the job - that is the key. Rob -- Robert Brockway B.Sc. email: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org, zzbrock at uqconnect.net Linux counter project ID #16440 (http://counter.li.org) "The earth is but one country and mankind its citizens" -Baha'u'llah -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 13 05:00:14 2003 From: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 00:00:14 -0500 (EST) Subject: Toronto Municipal Open Source Revolution, anyone ? In-Reply-To: <3FB2E2B2.4050308-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FB2E2B2.4050308@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Nov 2003, David J Patrick wrote: > Steve Barbour wrote: > > >If they are looking for Systems Administration Software and Intrusion > >Detection for Linux I'll gladly throw my hat in the ring and help with the > >"sales" process. > > > >Steve Barbour > > > > > > > Security and ease of admistration are the real keys to acceptance of > this idea, Steve. If you have the savvy and a hat to throw ... the ring > is forming ! Lets' let the ideas form for a couple of days and then get together face to face downtown. I can suggest a good restaurant :) Those pointing out that we need to make sure there is interest in city hall are spot on. Lets meet, get a few ideas together and see who we need to contact in city hall. I believe we'll do best if we contact the city on a corporate level - so a consortium of small businesses could lead the charge. Rob -- Robert Brockway B.Sc. email: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org, zzbrock at uqconnect.net Linux counter project ID #16440 (http://counter.li.org) "The earth is but one country and mankind its citizens" -Baha'u'llah -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 13 05:14:14 2003 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 00:14:14 -0500 Subject: Toronto Municipal Open Source Revolution, anyone ? In-Reply-To: References: <3FB2E2B2.4050308@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <20031113051414.GA955@node1.opengeometry.net> On Thu, Nov 13, 2003 at 12:00:14AM -0500, Robert Brockway wrote: > Lets' let the ideas form for a couple of days and then get together face > to face downtown. I can suggest a good restaurant :) Did someone finally say beer?... -- William Park, Open Geometry Consulting, Linux solution for data management and processing. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From blsonne-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 13 05:35:36 2003 From: blsonne-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Byron Sonne) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 00:35:36 -0500 Subject: Toronto Municipal Open Source Revolution, anyone ? In-Reply-To: References: <3FB2E2B2.4050308@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <3FB31828.4040305@rogers.com> > I believe we'll do best if we contact the city on a corporate level - so a > consortium of small businesses could lead the charge. I concurr; a business format to the matter would incurr better odds than a pureley altruistic angle. But that is an opinion mostly. OT, but case in point: when we put on theater during lunch period in highschool (don't ask...) for *free*, basically no one showed. But when we charged a dollar, we had alot more people. But if potential funding did come for such an initiative it could indeed be in the form of support fees, or salaries for staffing/contractors. All the more intriguing now that I've been unemployed for a few weeks with no immediate prospects that meet my needs (in terms of interest at least). Is there somewhere (as relates to this particular/potential initiative) that I could help out somehow, rather than just sitting here idle? I don't mind shit-work if it really will make a difference; if something needs to be done it needs to be done. -- For good, return good. For evil, return justice. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From marcus.brubaker-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 13 07:20:33 2003 From: marcus.brubaker-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Marcus Brubaker) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 02:20:33 -0500 Subject: Toronto Municipal Open Source Revolution, anyone ? In-Reply-To: <3FB31828.4040305-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <3FB2E2B2.4050308@sympatico.ca> <3FB31828.4040305@rogers.com> Message-ID: <1068708033.1183.1.camel@rincewind.discworld> On Thu, 2003-11-13 at 00:35, Byron Sonne wrote: > > I believe we'll do best if we contact the city on a corporate level - so a > > consortium of small businesses could lead the charge. > > I concurr; a business format to the matter would incurr better odds than > a pureley altruistic angle. But that is an opinion mostly. > > OT, but case in point: when we put on theater during lunch period in > highschool (don't ask...) for *free*, basically no one showed. But when > we charged a dollar, we had alot more people. But if potential funding > did come for such an initiative it could indeed be in the form of > support fees, or salaries for staffing/contractors. > > All the more intriguing now that I've been unemployed for a few weeks > with no immediate prospects that meet my needs (in terms of interest at > least). Is there somewhere (as relates to this particular/potential > initiative) that I could help out somehow, rather than just sitting here > idle? I don't mind shit-work if it really will make a difference; if > something needs to be done it needs to be done. One thing would be research as I've mentioned before. Start scrounging up the information that will be needed to make a plan. E.G. maybe dig around the Toronto city website or make a few phone calls to see who the person to talk to on this kind of thing would be. There is an impromptu list in another of my emails, but I'm too tired to reproduce it here. -- Marcus Brubaker -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 13 12:51:00 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 07:51:00 -0500 Subject: Toronto Municipal Open Source Revolution, anyone ? In-Reply-To: <3FB2748F.7080703-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FB2748F.7080703@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <20031113075100.3a71ff66.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Wed, 12 Nov 2003 12:57:35 -0500 David J Patrick uttered: > If we can get our collective stuff together and sway the new > Municipal government to go open source, we will save our city > millions, make our city more open and secure, and set a big example, > with Canada's largest city. > whatdya say ? Holy crap, I miss a day's worth of mail and it turns out yer all a bunch of revolutionary subversives like me ;-) Anyhow, count me in, big time! I'm gonna go through all the replies I missed and see what's up/been discussed already, but ya, definitely a good idea. I would really appreciate the opportunity to participate, and I promise no anarcho communist stuff, really I do. LOL! Cheers all, lookin' real good. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 13 16:33:03 2003 From: davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (David J Patrick) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 11:33:03 -0500 Subject: Revolution, anyone ? In-Reply-To: <20031113075100.3a71ff66.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FB2748F.7080703@sympatico.ca> <20031113075100.3a71ff66.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <3FB3B23F.2000104@sympatico.ca> JoeHill wrote: >On Wed, 12 Nov 2003 12:57:35 -0500 >David J Patrick uttered: > > > >> If we can get our collective stuff together and sway the new >>Municipal government to go open source, we will save our city >>millions, make our city more open and secure, and set a big example, >>with Canada's largest city. >> whatdya say ? >> >> > >Holy crap, I miss a day's worth of mail and it turns out yer all a bunch >of revolutionary subversives like me ;-) > > > I was beginning to worry, Joe ! -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From taavi-LbuTpDkqzNzXI80/IeQp7B2eb7JE58TQ at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 13 16:50:59 2003 From: taavi-LbuTpDkqzNzXI80/IeQp7B2eb7JE58TQ at public.gmane.org (Taavi Burns) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 11:50:59 -0500 Subject: linux = impossible? (no offense meant!) In-Reply-To: <20031113034812.GA58845-Ko7VQgJ6otXK2ngFqW3eKNllqMFDOoLF@public.gmane.org> References: <20031112002046.GC15848@hatefulsheep.ym.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> <20031113023029.GB17240@hatefulsheep.ym.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> <20031113034812.GA58845@pluto.bsdwebhosting.net> Message-ID: <20031113165059.GC17240@hatefulsheep.ym.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> On Wed, Nov 12, 2003 at 10:48:12PM -0500, Byron Desnoyers Winmill wrote: > If you are using HFS+, is the data fork and /rsrc > is the resource fork. With a little creativity, you can backup HFS > partitions with tar and friends. Oh my...that is neat. It feels ever so slightly like the VFAT hackery that went on with Win9x. Looks like it should work like a charm, though. > > It worked fine for me(*). Closing the lid even made the pb go to sleep > > without a hitch. :) > > I have an Nvidia chip, so getting X11 to work properly required compiling > XFree86 from the latest sources. (So how do I manage dependencies in > Debian now? A lot of stuff depends upon XFree86, and forcing packages > to install with dpkg is a pain.) Ouch. I'm quite happy with my Radeon 7500 Mobility. I've heard that even the OSX drivers for NVidia are inferior to the ATI ones, simply due to Apple's long history of using ATI video cards. > It also lookes like the Nvidia chip hoses sleep mode, since it may not be > able to wake up again. Stinx. > > Because the users of Macintosh labs like their Macintoshes. > > Of course those applications assume that you have the Quartz server up and > running. Darwin has very few benefits over Linux. OSX also provides all of the Foundation libraries, and all the other nice doodads and dohickies useful when coding Cocoa apps in Objective-C (well, and all of Cocoa and Carbon). Quartz is just the compositor, really (and a really nice one at that). > I would call Aqua a great piece of industrial design (ie. it looks great). > I cringe at calling it art. Industrial design is art. Someone put creative juices into the process of creating a useable _thing_ (chair, monitor, window manager). > > I tried burning a CD with some random Roxio CD burning utility > > Is there something wrong with Mac OS X's CD burning tools? Oh, no, I mean on a Windoze box at work. Toast does provide a nice interface when one wants to burn other than a plain ISO (mkisofs) or Apple-only DMG (Disk Copy Utility). -- taa /*eof*/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From blanco-S8qYAnHmZTt34ZA5RureAJ4VBq8PJc8F at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 13 16:52:19 2003 From: blanco-S8qYAnHmZTt34ZA5RureAJ4VBq8PJc8F at public.gmane.org (Max Blanco) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 11:52:19 -0500 (EST) Subject: City of Toronto using Linux (on the desktop, yet!) (fwd) Message-ID: I'd like to hear the IT person who was in charge of this speak at the next TLUG meeting... ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 21:48:37 -0400 From: Evan Leibovitch Reply-To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Subject: [TLUG]: City of Toronto using Linux (on the desktop, yet!) I may have missed this if it had previously been on the list. If this is a repeat, sorry. http://www.itworldcanada.com/index.cfm/ci_id/46194.htm Very interesting stuff. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From kcozens-qazKcTl6WRFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 13 17:17:08 2003 From: kcozens-qazKcTl6WRFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Kevin Cozens) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 12:17:08 -0500 Subject: time reference servers? In-Reply-To: <20031112082704.GA661-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20031112082704.GA661@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20031113121417.0286bbd0@mail.interlog.com> At 03:27 AM 11/12/2003 -0500, you wrote: >Which time servers (port 13, 37, 123) do you use to set your system >time? I would like to find machines closer to me than >and . I use time-a.timefreq.bldrdoc.gov to set up the time on my systems. It may not be the closest network wise but it ties back to the atomic clock of the NIST and gives my computers a time which is virtually the same as I hear via shortwave radio from WWV/WWVH. With other time servers, there is often some slight difference (a few seconds) between the system time and WWV/WWVH. Cheers! Kevin. (http://www.interlog.com/~kcozens/) Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172 |"What are we going to do today, Borg?" E-mail:kcozens at interlog dot com|"Same thing we always do, Pinkutus: Packet:ve3syb-XXPEJ3/fxIc at public.gmane.org#con.on.ca.na| Try to assimilate the world!" #include | -Pinkutus & the Borg -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 13 17:25:34 2003 From: davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (David J Patrick) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 12:25:34 -0500 Subject: City of Toronto using Linux (on the desktop, yet!) (fwd) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3FB3BE8E.90908@sympatico.ca> Max Blanco wrote: >I'd like to hear the IT person who was in charge of this speak at the next >TLUG meeting... > > That's a great idea ! I tried to register with ITWorldCanada, to read the article, but their process sent me in circles, eventually leading back to the registration page. ooooooow ! Do you have any links to the story that require fewer (or better designed) hoops to jump through ? djp -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From blsonne-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 13 17:55:51 2003 From: blsonne-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Byron Sonne) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 12:55:51 -0500 Subject: Toronto Municipal Open Source Revolution, anyone ? In-Reply-To: <1068708033.1183.1.camel-eTg7c9BlEq95hrpxxnI5yFifK/mc/01a@public.gmane.org> References: <3FB2E2B2.4050308@sympatico.ca> <3FB31828.4040305@rogers.com> <1068708033.1183.1.camel@rincewind.discworld> Message-ID: <3FB3C5A7.5040406@rogers.com> > One thing would be research as I've mentioned before. Start scrounging > up the information that will be needed to make a plan. E.G. maybe dig > around the Toronto city website or make a few phone calls to see who the > person to talk to on this kind of thing would be. There is an impromptu > list in another of my emails, but I'm too tired to reproduce it here. This looks like the most relevant thing *so far* that I've found... but I am unsure how current the info is given the recent election. In any case: Committees of Council: Administration Committee 1st Floor, West Tower Toronto City Hall 100 Queen Street West Toronto, Ontario M5H 2N2 e-mail: clerk-b4MmrVKqEFuw5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org fax: 416-392-2983 The Administration Committee is responsible for: * human resources, labour relations, occupational health and safety, access, equity and human rights * information technology and corporate communications * purchasing policies and fleet management * acquisition and disposal of City property * administrative matters of the Treasurer, Solicitor and Clerk Members: # Doug Holyday (Chair) # David Soknacki (Vice Chair) # Brian Ashton # Rob Ford # Anne Johnston # David Miller # Frances Nunziata # Paul Sutherland Staff contacts: Patsy Morris 416-392-9151 Janette McCusker 416-392-6627 Imogene Nugent 416-392-8485 -- For good, return good. For evil, return justice. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From aitken-BwLjziHGQLusTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 13 17:27:48 2003 From: aitken-BwLjziHGQLusTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Chris Aitken) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 12:27:48 -0500 Subject: anything@somethingelse.whatever Message-ID: <3FB3BF14.AA69D36@onlink.net> Does anyone know how to turn off the automatic hyperlinking of anything-f52GMkFzgz9UzNJCNVxzr5EluF3sTVYu at public.gmane.org in WordPerfect 8 for linux? I don't seem to have any help files loaded with the application installation, and I can't get a useful hit off google. Maybe my keywords aren't the best (variations of 'turn off autocomplete hyperlink wqordperfect 8 linux'). Thanks, Chris -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From aitken-BwLjziHGQLusTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 13 19:37:26 2003 From: aitken-BwLjziHGQLusTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (aitken-BwLjziHGQLusTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org) Date: 13 Nov 2003 19:37:26 -0000 Subject: Word .DOC viewer for Mozilla Message-ID: <20031113193726.28657.qmail@onlink8.onlink.net> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2003 Nov 07 - 15:24 -------------------------------------------------------------------------- >there must be in the application helper section, I guess just specify the >command line like the others are setup. I was also wondering the best way >to handle .doc files in linux, openoffice, isn't 100%. I always open them in AbiWord but remember to always save as word doc - works for me. Chris From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 13 19:31:25 2003 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 14:31:25 -0500 (EST) Subject: Word .DOC viewer for Mozilla In-Reply-To: <20031113193726.28657.qmail-mH9TDIkfHeMHAuPOIcZAu6xOck334EZe@public.gmane.org> References: <20031113193726.28657.qmail@onlink8.onlink.net> Message-ID: <2149.204.244.27.106.1068751885.squirrel@host.bettermarkets.com> > I always open them in AbiWord but remember to always save as word doc - > works for me. > > Chris I created the "application/doc" in helper apps and now *most* documents open. Some documents though with special characters or spaces seem not to recognise the file as ".doc" and ask what to do with the file. Do you know if there is a way to tell a helper app to only look at the last three characters so that it doesn't assume there are multiple files? (Which is what I assume is happening). Thanks! Madison -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From taavi-LbuTpDkqzNzXI80/IeQp7B2eb7JE58TQ at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 13 19:45:33 2003 From: taavi-LbuTpDkqzNzXI80/IeQp7B2eb7JE58TQ at public.gmane.org (Burns) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 14:45:33 -0500 Subject: Word .DOC viewer for Mozilla In-Reply-To: <2149.204.244.27.106.1068751885.squirrel-cSwQExXi3C0g59NOP9PCHBGZ6WaZejjh@public.gmane.org> References: <20031113193726.28657.qmail@onlink8.onlink.net> <2149.204.244.27.106.1068751885.squirrel@host.bettermarkets.com> Message-ID: <20031113194533.GA964@hatefulsheep.ym.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> On Thu, Nov 13, 2003 at 02:31:25PM -0500, Madison Kelly wrote: > recognise the file as ".doc" and ask what to do with the file. Do you know > if there is a way to tell a helper app to only look at the last three > characters so that it doesn't assume there are multiple files? (Which is > what I assume is happening). Probably something like: abiword "$s" as opposed to just abiword $s if you can specify the commandline to invoke the helper app. It may require other fiddling with various types of quotation marks and backslashes, depending. Or you could write a script that assumes it only ever gets one argument, and will concatenate any "stray" arguments plus spaces. Won't work for multiple consecutive spaces, but will probably work on more of the non-working docs. -- taa /*eof*/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jim.rootham-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 13 19:59:03 2003 From: jim.rootham-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (jim.rootham-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 14:59:03 -0500 Subject: Toronto Municipal Open Source Revolution, anyone ? Message-ID: <1068753543.3fb3e2879ebc5@webmail.utoronto.ca> I am very interested in this proposal. I have almost 30 years of experience in both computers and politics, in particular, Toronto city politics. Olivia Chow and Joe Pantalone know who I am. There are a few things to say off the bat. First, IT is politically sensitive right now because of the MFP scandal. Second, there is no way this happens without a large credible support organization. IBM is the obvious example, Novell and Red Hat are possibles. In fact, having multiple qualified bidders on support contracts would greatly enhance credibility. Finding out the current state of the world is a requirement. I will ask Olivia about who at the city would be willing and able to tell us about what the current thinking is about open source at City Hall. Jim Rootham PS At 7:51 AM -0500 11/13/03, JoeHill wrote: >I promise no anarcho communist stuff, really I do. LOL! That should be anarcho-syndicalist, shouldn't it? :) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 13 20:17:54 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 15:17:54 -0500 Subject: Toronto Municipal Open Source Revolution, anyone ? In-Reply-To: <1068753543.3fb3e2879ebc5-2RFepEojUI0fbXvGcxQkLSwD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <1068753543.3fb3e2879ebc5@webmail.utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <20031113151754.680ce7b9.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Thu, 13 Nov 2003 14:59:03 -0500 jim.rootham-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org uttered: > That should be anarcho-syndicalist, shouldn't it? :) You are correct sir! -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From tenger-ew0EfhANLmVEfu+5ix1nRw at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 13 20:59:21 2003 From: tenger-ew0EfhANLmVEfu+5ix1nRw at public.gmane.org (Terrence Enger) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 15:59:21 -0500 Subject: GUI Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20031113155921.00f916ec@mail.look.ca> Greetings, Several years ago, I got a GUI working on my Linux machine, but I remember that it was a lot of work. Now, I am tempted to try again, but worried about the time it may take. Starting from Slackware 9.0, how much work might I be looking at? Would it be a good idea to upgrade first to Slackware 9.1 to get XFree86 4.3.0? Thank you, all, for your help. Terry. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 13 20:59:55 2003 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 15:59:55 -0500 Subject: Toronto Municipal Open Source Revolution, anyone ? In-Reply-To: <1068753543.3fb3e2879ebc5-2RFepEojUI0fbXvGcxQkLSwD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <1068753543.3fb3e2879ebc5@webmail.utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <20031113205955.GA486@node1.opengeometry.net> On Thu, Nov 13, 2003 at 02:59:03PM -0500, jim.rootham-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org wrote: > I am very interested in this proposal. > > I have almost 30 years of experience in both computers and politics, > in particular, Toronto city politics. Olivia Chow and Joe Pantalone > know who I am. > > There are a few things to say off the bat. > > First, IT is politically sensitive right now because of the MFP scandal. > > Second, there is no way this happens without a large credible support > organization. IBM is the obvious example, Novell and Red Hat are possibles. > In fact, having multiple qualified bidders on support contracts would greatly > enhance credibility. 1. If that's the case, then where do little guys fit in? IBM, Novell, and RedHat would be using their own people for the contract. Unless you're trying to get hired by them... :-) 2. Perhaps, we should start small (say, non-essential department) and work our way up. -- William Park, Open Geometry Consulting, Linux solution for data management and processing. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From c.f.a.johnson-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 13 21:05:34 2003 From: c.f.a.johnson-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Chris F.A. Johnson) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 16:05:34 -0500 (EST) Subject: Toronto Municipal Open Source Revolution, anyone ? In-Reply-To: <20031113205955.GA486-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <1068753543.3fb3e2879ebc5@webmail.utoronto.ca> <20031113205955.GA486@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 13 Nov 2003, William Park wrote: > On Thu, Nov 13, 2003 at 02:59:03PM -0500, jim.rootham-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org wrote: > > I am very interested in this proposal. > > > > I have almost 30 years of experience in both computers and politics, > > in particular, Toronto city politics. Olivia Chow and Joe Pantalone > > know who I am. > > > > There are a few things to say off the bat. > > > > First, IT is politically sensitive right now because of the MFP scandal. > > > > Second, there is no way this happens without a large credible support > > organization. IBM is the obvious example, Novell and Red Hat are possibles. > > In fact, having multiple qualified bidders on support contracts would greatly > > enhance credibility. > > 1. If that's the case, then where do little guys fit in? IBM, Novell, > and RedHat would be using their own people for the contract. Unless > you're trying to get hired by them... :-) > > 2. Perhaps, we should start small (say, non-essential department) and > work our way up. Starting, perhaps, with the councillors in their own offices? -- Chris F.A. Johnson ================================================================= cfaj-uVmiyxGBW52XDw4h08c5KA at public.gmane.org http://cfaj.freeshell.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From blanco-S8qYAnHmZTt34ZA5RureAJ4VBq8PJc8F at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 13 22:02:50 2003 From: blanco-S8qYAnHmZTt34ZA5RureAJ4VBq8PJc8F at public.gmane.org (Max Blanco) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 17:02:50 -0500 (EST) Subject: Toronto Municipal Open Source Revolution, anyone ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 13 Nov 2003, Chris F.A. Johnson wrote: > > > I am very interested in this proposal. Great... the more the merrier! > > > Second, there is no way this happens without a large credible support > > > organization. IBM is the obvious example, Novell and Red Hat are possibles. > > > In fact, having multiple qualified bidders on support contracts would greatly > > > enhance credibility. > > > > 1. If that's the case, then where do little guys fit in? IBM, Novell, > > and RedHat would be using their own people for the contract. Unless > > you're trying to get hired by them... :-) I tend to think as William does. I see this as additional competition for the large corporations, not as a front door sales force for them. > > 2. Perhaps, we should start small (say, non-essential department) and > > work our way up. > > Starting, perhaps, with the councillors in their own offices? Two very good ideas: start small... one non-essential office by one non-essential office. If we can get councillors to spread the word, we're set! -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From blanco-S8qYAnHmZTt34ZA5RureAJ4VBq8PJc8F at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 13 22:03:55 2003 From: blanco-S8qYAnHmZTt34ZA5RureAJ4VBq8PJc8F at public.gmane.org (Max Blanco) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 17:03:55 -0500 (EST) Subject: City of Toronto using Linux (on the desktop, yet!) (fwd) In-Reply-To: <3FB3BE8E.90908-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FB3BE8E.90908@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, 13 Nov 2003, David J Patrick wrote: > Max Blanco wrote: > > >I'd like to hear the IT person who was in charge of this speak at the next > >TLUG meeting... > > > > > That's a great idea ! > I tried to register with ITWorldCanada, to read the article, but > their process sent me in circles, eventually leading back to the > registration page. ooooooow ! Do you have any links to the story that > require fewer (or better designed) hoops to jump through ? > djp I'm having trouble too. Does anyone have the article handy? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 13 22:33:15 2003 From: davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (David J Patrick) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 17:33:15 -0500 Subject: Toronto Municipal Open Source opportunities In-Reply-To: <20031113205955.GA486-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <1068753543.3fb3e2879ebc5@webmail.utoronto.ca> <20031113205955.GA486@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <3FB406AB.60401@sympatico.ca> >1. If that's the case, then where do little guys fit in? IBM, Novell, >and RedHat would be using their own people for the contract. Unless >you're trying to get hired by them... :-) > >2. Perhaps, we should start small (say, non-essential department) and >work our way up. > > > If tens of thousands of machines migrated to OSS I'd bet that oportunities, for the unixly inclined, would open up. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From fcsoft-rxKNY4w4koG3ikBYyZqyVg at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 13 22:45:51 2003 From: fcsoft-rxKNY4w4koG3ikBYyZqyVg at public.gmane.org (fcsoft-rxKNY4w4koG3ikBYyZqyVg at public.gmane.org) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 17:45:51 -0500 Subject: Toronto Municipal Open Source Revolution, anyone ? In-Reply-To: <20031112192034.D8DB4B8B2C-pwyU32sTfCqP7boJH+kiu+TW4wlIGRCZ@public.gmane.org> References: <3FB2748F.7080703@sympatico.ca> <20031112192034.D8DB4B8B2C@outbox.allstream.net> Message-ID: <20031113224012.A9032BB7BF@outbox.allstream.net> Here's the link to that Beonix (Sun Microsystems Belleville) installation at the City of Toronto. http://www.itworldcanada.com/index.cfm?ci_id=48508&target=46194 Unfortunately this site requires a registration to see the full article. I've reproduced some hilites below. ============================ City rolls out desktop Linux By Ryan B. Patrick ComputerWorld Canada When the City of Toronto's Children's Services Division (CSD) recently decided to migrate 450 of its PCs over to Linux client workstations, it really didn't raise a lot of eyebrows. According to Jody McConkey, an IT configuration specialist at CSD, the municipal organization has always garnered a rep for running against the pack. CSD looked into acquiring PCs with Microsoft Corp.'s Windows XP but found that cost-prohibitive. "It was about $1,600 (each) to buy a PC and (a) couple hundred to license XP," McConkey said. The division also looked at new Neo PCs, which were essentially running a stripped down version of Red Hat Inc. In the end, CSD built its own thin clients. It cost $250 a pop, noted McConkey - all of the client workstations are diskless PCs running a customized "live" CD-ROM-based Linux desktop and feature a modified version of Red Hat 7.3. "There's no moving parts nothing to break down," McConkey said. "Everything is centrally looked after - we run VNC (virtual network computing) to go into the boxes, everything goes into a central server for home directory, and with no hard drive to bugger it up." On November 12, 2003 02:19 pm, you wrote: > A good place to start would be to postpone hardware upgrades and upgrade > Open Office instead of Office XP. > > PS. > I know the department of Children services has already gone to a thin > client solution supplied by Sun's Belleville facility. > > On November 12, 2003 12:57 pm, you wrote: > > We have a new Mayor. Rumour has it that he uses linux. Whether or > > not that is the true, the time is ripe for a shakeup of municipal > > software usage. Who would spearhead such a move ? > > Oh..I donno.. the Toronto Lunux Users Group ? > > Mayoral candidate John Tory suggested that he could save seven > > million tomorrow simply by getting Microsoft to refund license fees that > > the previous Mayor (Mel) had over purchased. Apparently Mel bought > > ordered twice the licenses actually required. I suggest that Mel > > overspent by more like 90%. Why just return unused licenses, when open > > source solutions are ready to go. > > Here's what I propose; > > If the consensus, here at the LUG, is that Toronto is ready for open > > source (and vice versa) > > Lets; > > - set up a wikki, where we can collect our thoughts, arguments, links > > and suggestions. > > - find out where the thin edge of the wedge might best be placed, within > > the Miller government. > > - set up a special meeting/ presentation to pitch the idea and > > demonstrate software candidates. (and let's not repeat the Globe & Mail > > software installation fiasco; hide the pocket protectors and > > propeller-beenies, OK ?) > > If we can get our collective stuff together and sway the new > > Municipal government to go open source, we will save our city millions, > > make our city more open and secure, and set a big example, with Canada's > > largest city. > > whatdya say ? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 13 22:49:02 2003 From: davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (David J Patrick) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 17:49:02 -0500 Subject: GUI In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.20031113155921.00f916ec-BF7s+LSmFG27ALip+uieHQ@public.gmane.org> References: <3.0.3.32.20031113155921.00f916ec@mail.look.ca> Message-ID: <3FB40A5E.8050209@sympatico.ca> Terrence Enger wrote: >Greetings, > >Several years ago, I got a GUI working on my Linux machine, but >I remember that it was a lot of work. Now, I am tempted to try >again, but worried about the time it may take. Starting from >Slackware 9.0, how much work might I be looking at? Would it >be a good idea to upgrade first to Slackware 9.1 to get >XFree86 4.3.0? > >Thank you, all, for your help. > >Terry. > > > Do you have a Slackware box up and running ? Adding a GUI to an older distro might be a bit of a challenge. Otherwise, pick a distro; download, burn and install. Slackware 9.1 comes with GNOME 2.4.0, and KDE 3.1.4. if you are Slack inclined. otherwise choose Mandrake or Fedora (RedHat) for an .rpm based system. Ark alpha 9 has had glowing reviews. Bonzai will help you install a debian based system. Gentoo is nirvana for the chronic optimizer. cruise the big list at distrowatch.com These days you'd have to be creative NOT to get a GUI with your distro. djp -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 13 23:31:16 2003 From: davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (David J Patrick) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 18:31:16 -0500 Subject: Toronto Municipal Open Source Revolution, anyone ? In-Reply-To: <1068753543.3fb3e2879ebc5-2RFepEojUI0fbXvGcxQkLSwD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <1068753543.3fb3e2879ebc5@webmail.utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <3FB41444.9020704@sympatico.ca> jim.rootham-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org wrote: >I am very interested in this proposal. > >I have almost 30 years of experience in both computers and politics, >in particular, Toronto city politics. Olivia Chow and Joe Pantalone >know who I am. > >There are a few things to say off the bat. > >First, IT is politically sensitive right now because of the MFP scandal. > > Nightmarish ! Perhaps this approach is the polar opposite of that situation ? >Second, there is no way this happens without a large credible support >organization. IBM is the obvious example, Novell and Red Hat are possibles. >In fact, having multiple qualified bidders on support contracts would greatly >enhance credibility. > > I'm sure you are correct. Undoubtedly, this idea is already on many desks. >Finding out the current state of the world is a requirement. > > step #1 >I will ask Olivia about who at the city would be willing and able to tell us >about what the current thinking is about open source at City Hall. > > Brilliant ! We'll be here on the edge of our chairs.. >Jim Rootham > > > I'm delighted that someone with your experience is with us. djp -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From blanco-S8qYAnHmZTt34ZA5RureAJ4VBq8PJc8F at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 13 23:58:06 2003 From: blanco-S8qYAnHmZTt34ZA5RureAJ4VBq8PJc8F at public.gmane.org (Max Blanco) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 18:58:06 -0500 (EST) Subject: XFree86 + vga server + debian + Mach64 + PPC = ??? Message-ID: Hi All, I'm trying to run a VGA server on XFree86 on a debian ppclinux. I get the following error message when I try to run startx: " (WW) VGA: Chipset "ati" in Device section "Mach64" isn't valid for this driver (EE) No devices detected. Fatal server error. " This happens after I get plenty of stuff in /var/log/XFree86.0.log but where is the list of valid "Chipset"s for the VGA driver? If I had that available, I think I'd be laughing... Any help appreciated. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From aitken-BwLjziHGQLusTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Fri Nov 14 00:26:48 2003 From: aitken-BwLjziHGQLusTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (aitken-BwLjziHGQLusTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org) Date: 14 Nov 2003 00:26:48 -0000 Subject: running mpeg files Message-ID: <20031114002648.24439.qmail@onlink8.onlink.net> This is the second post I've seen for rh versions 8/9 not having functionality out-of-the-box. i always install 7.3 then upgrade - that way you get sound, mpegs play automagically - 7.3 is more of a multimedia system. aumix is already installed - I keep bumping into stuff that loads with 7.3 but not 8. Chris ------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2003 Nov 10 - 10:34 -------------------------------------------------------------------------- >how do I/what app do I need to view mpeg files? I'm running RH8. > >-peter From whchen-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Fri Nov 14 01:15:54 2003 From: whchen-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (Wei Hua Chen) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 20:15:54 -0500 Subject: City of Toronto using Linux (on the desktop, yet!) (fwd) References: Message-ID: <00a301c3aa4c$da18ca40$0600a8c0@dell> Hi buddy, I think some of you are looking for this page from itworldcanada.com. i'd d/l it and pls check the attachment (html file). B/R cwh ----- Original Message ----- From: "Max Blanco" To: Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2003 5:03 PM Subject: Re: [TLUG]: City of Toronto using Linux (on the desktop, yet!) (fwd) > > On Thu, 13 Nov 2003, David J Patrick wrote: > > > Max Blanco wrote: > > > > >I'd like to hear the IT person who was in charge of this speak at the next > > >TLUG meeting... > > > > > > > > That's a great idea ! > > I tried to register with ITWorldCanada, to read the article, but > > their process sent me in circles, eventually leading back to the > > registration page. ooooooow ! Do you have any links to the story that > > require fewer (or better designed) hoops to jump through ? > > djp > > I'm having trouble too. > Does anyone have the article handy? > > > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lists-Gb8Tj4xcA4YgsBAKwltoeQ at public.gmane.org Fri Nov 14 01:56:20 2003 From: lists-Gb8Tj4xcA4YgsBAKwltoeQ at public.gmane.org (Byron Q. Desnoyers Winmill) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 20:56:20 -0500 (EST) Subject: XFree86 + vga server + debian + Mach64 + PPC = ??? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi, Is this a Macintosh? If so, which model? To my knowledge, it is best to use the offb or something particular you your video chipset (rather than vga). Byron. On Thu, 13 Nov 2003, Max Blanco wrote: > I'm trying to run a VGA server on XFree86 on a debian ppclinux. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From legrady-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Fri Nov 14 03:02:27 2003 From: legrady-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Tom Legrady) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 22:02:27 -0500 Subject: GUI In-Reply-To: <3FB40A5E.8050209-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <3.0.3.32.20031113155921.00f916ec@mail.look.ca> <3FB40A5E.8050209@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <3FB445C3.4050206@rogers.com> In the last 3 or 4 years, any Linux/BSD I've installed has had no trouble with X ... much easier than trying to support my Canon printer, my Palm Pilot, .... David J Patrick wrote: > Terrence Enger wrote: > >> Greetings, >> >> Several years ago, I got a GUI working on my Linux machine, but I >> remember that it was a lot of work. Now, I am tempted to try again, >> but worried about the time it may take. Starting from Slackware 9.0, >> how much work might I be looking at? Would it be a good idea to >> upgrade first to Slackware 9.1 to get XFree86 4.3.0? >> >> Thank you, all, for your help. >> >> Terry. >> >> >> > Do you have a Slackware box up and running ? > Adding a GUI to an older distro might be a bit of a challenge. > Otherwise, pick a distro; download, burn and install. > > Slackware 9.1 comes with GNOME 2.4.0, and KDE 3.1.4. if you are Slack > inclined. > otherwise > choose Mandrake or Fedora (RedHat) for an .rpm based system. > Ark alpha 9 has had glowing reviews. > Bonzai will help you install a debian based system. > Gentoo is nirvana for the chronic optimizer. > > cruise the big list at distrowatch.com > These days you'd have to be creative NOT to get a GUI with your distro. > djp > > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From blanco-S8qYAnHmZTt34ZA5RureAJ4VBq8PJc8F at public.gmane.org Fri Nov 14 03:40:51 2003 From: blanco-S8qYAnHmZTt34ZA5RureAJ4VBq8PJc8F at public.gmane.org (Max Blanco) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 22:40:51 -0500 (EST) Subject: XFree86 + vga server + debian + Mach64 + PPC = ??? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Byron, Yes, it is a mac: 750 OldWorld G3 266mhz. What is "offb", please? Funny thing is, I can't find the Mach64 driver in my CDs. thanks, max. On Thu, 13 Nov 2003, Byron Q. Desnoyers Winmill wrote: > Hi, > > Is this a Macintosh? If so, which model? To my knowledge, it is best > to use the offb or something particular you your video chipset (rather > than vga). > > Byron. > > On Thu, 13 Nov 2003, Max Blanco wrote: > > I'm trying to run a VGA server on XFree86 on a debian ppclinux. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Fri Nov 14 04:42:59 2003 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 23:42:59 -0500 Subject: Printing problem In-Reply-To: <42545.24.192.219.224.1068670521.squirrel-cSwQExXi3C0g59NOP9PCHBGZ6WaZejjh@public.gmane.org> References: <42545.24.192.219.224.1068670521.squirrel@host.bettermarkets.com> Message-ID: <3FB45D53.6050901@alteeve.com> Hi all, this is a reply for the archive. The problem turned out to be a dieing printer. When I moved it to a windows box it still didn't work. I unplugged it from the mains and plugged it back in and voila, all was good. Madison Madison Kelly wrote: > Hi all, > > I have setup a Redhat 9.0 machine (fully updated) which has a Canon > BJC4300 printer. There is a Win98 laptop here as well. The printer is on > the Linux bos of the parallel port (lp0, iirc). > > I had the printer working just fine. I installed a second printer also > to use lp0 using a raw driver that was shared in Samba (needed to use > raw because the win98 tried to format the print job and then so did > samba again). All was good and both machines printed fine for a day or > two. Now, I can't get either to print at all. I am in the middle of yet > again removing and reinstalling the printer using Redhat's printer > configuration util. > > Does anyone have any insight into what might be wrong? > > Thanks! > > Madison > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From blanco-S8qYAnHmZTt34ZA5RureAJ4VBq8PJc8F at public.gmane.org Fri Nov 14 04:53:33 2003 From: blanco-S8qYAnHmZTt34ZA5RureAJ4VBq8PJc8F at public.gmane.org (Max Blanco) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 23:53:33 -0500 (EST) Subject: Problem solved, was Re:XFree86 + vga server + debian + Mach64 + PPC = ??? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: My problem was that I didn't know about "xf86cfg -textmode", which matched up with my card: "cat /proc/pci". Thanks to Byron/All. On Thu, 13 Nov 2003, Max Blanco wrote: > > Hi Byron, > > Yes, it is a mac: 750 OldWorld G3 266mhz. > What is "offb", please? > > Funny thing is, I can't find the Mach64 driver in my CDs. > > thanks, > max. > > On Thu, 13 Nov 2003, Byron Q. Desnoyers Winmill wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > Is this a Macintosh? If so, which model? To my knowledge, it is best > > to use the offb or something particular you your video chipset (rather > > than vga). > > > > Byron. > > > > On Thu, 13 Nov 2003, Max Blanco wrote: > > > I'm trying to run a VGA server on XFree86 on a debian ppclinux. > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jmyshrall-6duGhz7i8susTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Fri Nov 14 14:31:23 2003 From: jmyshrall-6duGhz7i8susTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (John Myshrall) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 09:31:23 -0500 Subject: HP Laserjet 1200 FREE PARTS Message-ID: <200311140931.23781.jmyshrall@golden.net> I have a HP Laserjet 1200 which has a damaged fusing assembly. The cost to buy the new part is $ 172.00. From my perspective it is not worth fixing. If anyone on the list is in need of parts for this model printer contact me off the list. BTW it also has a toner cartridge as well. Note : I've taken apart the back end which needed replacing and the covers. I'm not going to reassemble it. HP tech support has told me that the fusing roller comes as a complete unit only. So this is only good to someone with a similar printer. If you live in the GTA I may be able to drop it off to you. I live in Mississauga. John -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From rgfranks-cmaem7PIVQT44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Nov 14 14:55:48 2003 From: rgfranks-cmaem7PIVQT44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Greg Franks) Date: 14 Nov 2003 09:55:48 -0500 Subject: OpenOffice.org Performance In-Reply-To: <20031103214533.2EA0D44DA-xzRQuAxiFLNWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org> References: <20031103214533.2EA0D44DA@cbbrowne.com> Message-ID: >>>>> "Christopher" == Christopher Browne writes: >> There's something wrong here. >> >> I'll take Emacs or vi and LaTeX or troff any day. Christopher> I have to vote with you on this... Ditto.. Christopher> And I recall the "bad old days" when I had NO TROUBLE Christopher> processing a 150 page master's thesis, replete with Christopher> lots of gory mathematical formulae, on an old Atari Christopher> ST with 2MB of memory. Wow -- I used 1M, and half of that was ram disk because I couldn't afford the HD. :-) Christopher> The inefficiency of OpenOffice.org is pretty Christopher> stunning. Almost enough to turn you off of C++ :-). And you need 132M to display a clock these days too. Your point is? :-) ..greg -- __@ Greg Franks <| _~@ __O _`\<,_ Ottawa, Ontario, Canada |O\ -^\<;^\<, (*)/ (*) (*)--(*)%---/(*) "Where do you want to go today?" Outside. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From wmcgilvery-6d3DWWOeJtE at public.gmane.org Fri Nov 14 15:03:26 2003 From: wmcgilvery-6d3DWWOeJtE at public.gmane.org (Wil McGilvery) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 10:03:26 -0500 Subject: OpenOffice.org Performance Message-ID: <65B7B304AA3DE147BBD33938FE204E28319176@lynchmail.lynch.msft> I have been using a program called textmaker from www.softmaker.com It loads really fast and I like it because word documents show very well on it. I avoid openoffice and koffice like the plague. I have tried both and do not like either one. Regards, Wil McGilvery Manager Lynch Digital Media Inc 416-744-7949 416-716-3964 (cell) 1-866-314-4678 416-744-0406? FAX www.LynchDigital.com -----Original Message----- From: Greg Franks [mailto:rgfranks-cmaem7PIVQT44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org] Sent: Friday, November 14, 2003 9:56 AM To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Subject: Re: [TLUG]: OpenOffice.org Performance >>>>> "Christopher" == Christopher Browne writes: >> There's something wrong here. >> >> I'll take Emacs or vi and LaTeX or troff any day. Christopher> I have to vote with you on this... Ditto.. Christopher> And I recall the "bad old days" when I had NO TROUBLE Christopher> processing a 150 page master's thesis, replete with Christopher> lots of gory mathematical formulae, on an old Atari Christopher> ST with 2MB of memory. Wow -- I used 1M, and half of that was ram disk because I couldn't afford the HD. :-) Christopher> The inefficiency of OpenOffice.org is pretty Christopher> stunning. Almost enough to turn you off of C++ :-). And you need 132M to display a clock these days too. Your point is? :-) ..greg -- __@ Greg Franks <| _~@ __O _`\<,_ Ottawa, Ontario, Canada |O\ -^\<;^\<, (*)/ (*) (*)--(*)%---/(*) "Where do you want to go today?" Outside. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cmb-h7HJ8Pof2EbbR28j2ZUwYgC/G2K4zDHf at public.gmane.org Fri Nov 14 15:36:30 2003 From: cmb-h7HJ8Pof2EbbR28j2ZUwYgC/G2K4zDHf at public.gmane.org (Charly Baker) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 10:36:30 -0500 Subject: running mpeg files In-Reply-To: <20031114002648.24439.qmail-mH9TDIkfHeMHAuPOIcZAu6xOck334EZe@public.gmane.org> References: <20031114002648.24439.qmail@onlink8.onlink.net> Message-ID: <200311141036.30249.cmb@fivefortyfour.com> "install 7.3 then upgrade" -- that's easy to say, but how do you go about upgrading 7.3 to get to a configuration that could accept binaries prepared say for 9.0? Charly Baker On Thursday 13 November 2003 7:26 pm, aitken-BwLjziHGQLusTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org wrote: > This is the second post I've seen for rh versions 8/9 not having > functionality out-of-the-box. i always install 7.3 then upgrade - that > way you get sound, mpegs play automagically - 7.3 is more of a > multimedia system. aumix is already installed - I keep bumping > into stuff that loads with 7.3 but not 8. > > Chris > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > 2003 Nov 10 - 10:34 > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > >how do I/what app do I need to view mpeg files? I'm running RH8. > > > >-peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Nov 14 15:59:01 2003 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 10:59:01 -0500 Subject: backup stratagems In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20031106175134.01ecb9f0-Nf8GSVjHSL5zk1aGpazrEgC/G2K4zDHf@public.gmane.org> References: <3FA852DC.700@sympatico.ca> <3FA852DC.700@sympatico.ca> <5.2.1.1.0.20031106175134.01ecb9f0@mail.interlog.com> Message-ID: <20031114155900.GC24997@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Nov 06, 2003 at 06:07:21PM -0500, Kevin Cozens wrote: > Which (if any) of the above support backup to DVD drives? I used to do > backups to 4mm DAT tape. However, after I had three tape drives stop > working on me I no longer consider tape (or at least tape drives) to be a > reliable way to backup hard drives. Not to say that many of you that use > tape drives have had no problems. cdbackup tob Both are available on Debian at least. Perhaps combined they would make a great tool. > Also, does anyone know how things are going re: the ability to do packet > writing to CD/DVD's? It works fine under Windows allowing a CD or DVD to be > used as a rather large floppy. Under RedHat 9 I can mount a drive as '-t > UDF' and can read the disks I created from Windows. Last I checked, write > support was still considered experimental under Linux. Well write support to DVD-RAM can be done easily (and works well). Not sure how it is doing for things like DVD+RW or DVD-RW. Lennart Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lance-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Fri Nov 14 16:43:18 2003 From: lance-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Lance F. Squire) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 11:43:18 -0500 Subject: ssl server Message-ID: <3FB50626.8030602@alteeve.com> I'm trying to set-up a test https server in RH 7.3 So far the test certs seem to be in place (server.crt) The httpd.conf seems to be configured correctly... However when I attampt to connect I get a 'Connection refused by server'. What am I missing? Lance -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Nov 14 16:36:02 2003 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 11:36:02 -0500 Subject: Installing Progency Debian In-Reply-To: <3FAFBC8E.3060504-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <20031110063804.5b57ab77.joehill@sympatico.ca> <3FAFD2CF.5060308@sympatico.ca> <3FAFBC8E.3060504@istop.com> Message-ID: <20031114163602.GD24997@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Nov 10, 2003 at 05:27:58PM +0100, Carola Koitz wrote: > I have a system on which is already installed Windows 2000, SuSE > Professional 8.1, > Mandrake 9.1 and Red Hat 9. While installing Progeny Debian the > partition table > wasn't found and I was asked if I want to create a new one. Is there any > way to get also > Debian installed without destroying all the data on the drive. > It says in the manual "if you encounter this situation, please contact > Customer Support" What version of Progeny is that? I thought progeny had stopped making releases quite a while ago and that they didn't support it anymore. Any chance the drive uses a dynamic partition table? (I doubt it). Maybe it is just confused or can't find the drive. Lennart Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From tchitow-PkbjNfxxIARBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Fri Nov 14 16:41:17 2003 From: tchitow-PkbjNfxxIARBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Martin Duclos) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 11:41:17 -0500 Subject: ssl server Message-ID: Is the port blocked at the firewall level? Check your ipchains or iptables config. ----Original Message Follows---- From: "Lance F. Squire" Reply-To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Subject: [TLUG]: ssl server Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 11:43:18 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: from lethe.ss.org ([206.108.5.1]) by mc5-f7.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6713); Fri, 14 Nov 2003 08:38:17 -0800 Received: by lethe.ss.org (Postfix)id D349E7671; Fri, 14 Nov 2003 11:37:55 -0500 (EST) Received: by lethe.ss.org (Postfix, from userid 54)id 8D5D378BD; Fri, 14 Nov 2003 11:37:55 -0500 (EST) X-Message-Info: JGTYoYF78jEdz8oo33rQXB/rN+JU4Y0m Delivered-To: tlug-route-MHjupGqSvN5g9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org X-Original-To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Delivered-To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Message-ID: <3FB50626.8030602-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030703 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en, ja Sender: owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Precedence: list Return-Path: owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org X-OriginalArrivalTime: 14 Nov 2003 16:38:18.0520 (UTC) FILETIME=[B56AD180:01C3AACD] I'm trying to set-up a test https server in RH 7.3 So far the test certs seem to be in place (server.crt) The httpd.conf seems to be configured correctly... However when I attampt to connect I get a 'Connection refused by server'. What am I missing? Lance -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/bcomm&pgmarket=en-ca&RU=http%3a%2f%2fjoin.msn.com%2f%3fpage%3dmisc%2fspecialoffers%26pgmarket%3den-ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Nov 14 16:46:10 2003 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 11:46:10 -0500 Subject: Linux development position to be had.. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20031114164610.GE24997@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Nov 12, 2003 at 09:07:34AM -0500, Robert Brockway wrote: > I used to work with a guy names Jim Carey. He was always getting > comments. For a fun example of this phenomena see the movie "Office > Space". It is well worth a look for lots of other reasons too. Yeah we have a Stephen King in the office. He doesn't seem to get too many silly comments about it. Lennart Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Nov 14 16:48:27 2003 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 11:48:27 -0500 Subject: ssl server In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20031114164827.GF24997@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Fri, Nov 14, 2003 at 11:41:17AM -0500, Martin Duclos wrote: > Is the port blocked at the firewall level? Check your ipchains or iptables > config. Or is apache configured to listen on both port 80 and 443 and is the mod_ssl settings included in the httpd.conf? I often forget that last part.A On debian mod-ssl.conf is in the doc dir for mod-ssl and can simply be edited and included by httpd.conf to do all the needed magic. Lennart Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lance-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Fri Nov 14 17:12:32 2003 From: lance-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Lance F. Squire) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 12:12:32 -0500 Subject: ssl server Solved Thanks! :) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3FB50D00.6010004@alteeve.com> Martin Duclos wrote: > Is the port blocked at the firewall level? Check your ipchains or > iptables config. > Got it in One! Much Thanks Lance F. Squire -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From gbell72-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Fri Nov 14 17:04:44 2003 From: gbell72-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (gbell72) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 12:04:44 -0500 (EST) Subject: honeypots Message-ID: Lately I've been doing some research on honeypots, I've come across a vast amount of information on them but am presently unsure on how to go about deploying one. As I say I'm only doing this for research purposes but would like to witness one in action first hand. How difficult would it be to set one or two up, and how would they best be deployed to emulate an ftp and webserver? These two services I am presently running. Would one honeypot do the job? And how would I go about strategically placing them. I've read that low-level honeypots rarely fool an attacker. I realize it's mostly organizations that utilize high-level ones. What type of honeypot would best fit a 5 system network. My network consists of 3 linux systems and a win xp pro system. Any tips or advice greatly appreciated. Gardner -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From tom-mQDsgmoLwK3SUeElwK9/Pw at public.gmane.org Fri Nov 14 17:20:19 2003 From: tom-mQDsgmoLwK3SUeElwK9/Pw at public.gmane.org (Tom) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 12:20:19 -0500 Subject: MS financial update Message-ID: For those who consider MS to be the enemy, here are some numbers you should look at: MS earnings and revenue for the quarter ending October 2003. All #'s are in billions of US$. As usual, Windows and Office are the money makers. Total: 2.6 in earnings on $8.2 in revenue. Client unit (desktop windows) 2.26 on 2.81 2.27 on 2.81 year ago Server & Tools unit 0.37 on 1.87 0.30 on 1.63 year ago Information Worker (Office) 1.59 on 2.29 1.66 on 2.27 year ago They have 51 in (petty) cash. These numbers remind me that desktop Linux and OpenOffice are important. Tom. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From kmastin-PzQIwG9Jn9VAFePFGvp55w at public.gmane.org Fri Nov 14 17:23:05 2003 From: kmastin-PzQIwG9Jn9VAFePFGvp55w at public.gmane.org (Keith Mastin) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 12:23:05 -0500 (EST) Subject: Toronto Municipal Open Source Revolution, anyone ? In-Reply-To: References: <3FB2E2B2.4050308@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <2329.216.138.194.32.1068830585.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> >> >If they are looking for Systems Administration Software and Intrusion >> >Detection for Linux I'll gladly throw my hat in the ring and help with >> >the "sales" process. >> >> Security and ease of admistration are the real keys to acceptance of >> this idea, Steve. If you have the savvy and a hat to throw ... the ring >> is forming ! They are from the IT side, but what about from the end-user's side? How will this make life better for city office managers? Also, consider how many present IT staff wil be beating the pavement looking for new jobs. How do you plan on giving the city incentive for dealing with them? > Lets' let the ideas form for a couple of days and then get together face > to face downtown. I can suggest a good restaurant :) > > Those pointing out that we need to make sure there is interest in city > hall are spot on. Lets meet, get a few ideas together and see who we > need to contact in city hall. > > I believe we'll do best if we contact the city on a corporate level - so > a consortium of small businesses could lead the charge. Absolutely, but you need to give it credibility with some sort of entrance criteria. 'Just a bunch o' small businesses' could include Sam's Restaurant. IMHO 'Linux Systems Admins' is too broad, should be narrowed down to match the systems that will be installed. Go in with a deployment plan roughed out in case you get asked. Be very clear about the end goal and the benefits to the city (including disgruntled workers, esp. those who have gone to M$ school for pay upgrades), and prioratize those benefits. Place security about halfway down the list or you'll witness a bunch of non-tech types going into shock. The easiest sales are pain/relief variety, so find out what the problems are for the lusers, administration and IT. Fix those and they'll help push for the sale. When ya go for those beers, why not do it where the city staff hang out? They can tell you a lot more over a friendly beer than you can surmise in a month. -- Keith -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From kmastin-PzQIwG9Jn9VAFePFGvp55w at public.gmane.org Fri Nov 14 17:56:57 2003 From: kmastin-PzQIwG9Jn9VAFePFGvp55w at public.gmane.org (Keith Mastin) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 12:56:57 -0500 (EST) Subject: running mpeg files In-Reply-To: <200311141036.30249.cmb-h7HJ8Pof2EbbR28j2ZUwYgC/G2K4zDHf@public.gmane.org> References: <20031114002648.24439.qmail@onlink8.onlink.net> <200311141036.30249.cmb@fivefortyfour.com> Message-ID: <2446.216.138.194.32.1068832617.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> > "install 7.3 then upgrade" -- that's easy to say, but how do you go > about upgrading 7.3 to get to a configuration that could accept binaries > prepared say for 9.0? >From the cd's, just like a regular install only choose the upgrade option. The binaries are compiled with different versions of gcc, so the libraries are different too. -- Keith -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cmb-h7HJ8Pof2EbbR28j2ZUwYgC/G2K4zDHf at public.gmane.org Fri Nov 14 18:27:12 2003 From: cmb-h7HJ8Pof2EbbR28j2ZUwYgC/G2K4zDHf at public.gmane.org (Charly Baker) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 13:27:12 -0500 Subject: running mpeg files In-Reply-To: <2446.216.138.194.32.1068832617.squirrel-16UnNR4aCrhlws70yGkXPA@public.gmane.org> References: <20031114002648.24439.qmail@onlink8.onlink.net> <200311141036.30249.cmb@fivefortyfour.com> <2446.216.138.194.32.1068832617.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> Message-ID: <200311141327.12985.cmb@fivefortyfour.com> On Friday 14 November 2003 12:56 pm, Keith Mastin wrote: > > "install 7.3 then upgrade" -- that's easy to say, but how do you go > > about upgrading 7.3 to get to a configuration that could accept binaries > > prepared say for 9.0? > > From the cd's, just like a regular install only choose the upgrade option. > The binaries are compiled with different versions of gcc, so the libraries > are different too. You are braver than me. Has this procedure caused problems for you with any of the systems you have upgraded this way? I have some systems that I would like to get more up to date, but had always thought that the upgrade option would be too dangerous. Charly Baker -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Fri Nov 14 19:03:58 2003 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 14:03:58 -0500 Subject: Kinda OT: Looking for a used digital camera (linux compat.) Message-ID: <3FB5271E.3040603@alteeve.com> Hi all, I hope this isn't considered -too- off topic. :) I need a digital camera for taking pictures of computer parts for web-display. In other words, the only thing I need out of the camera is that I can connect to it in Linux and that it can take a clear picture. Obviously I would love one of those multi-megapixel cameras but I can't say that I have too much money to throw around at the moment... alas! Oh, and a tripod mount would be nice but isn't too important. So, I am hoping that someone here on TLUG has recently replaced an older but still decent camera and wouldn't mind selling their old one (or other such scenario). Because I won't likely be taking it anywhere or using it for anything other than product shots a camera that is by todays standards bulky or that has problems like a cracked case or whatever isn't an issue - I just need decent static pictures of computer parts. If you think you might be able to help, drop me a line off the list. Many thanks!! Madison mkelly at alteeve dot com -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From tenger-ew0EfhANLmVEfu+5ix1nRw at public.gmane.org Fri Nov 14 19:16:31 2003 From: tenger-ew0EfhANLmVEfu+5ix1nRw at public.gmane.org (Terrence Enger) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 14:16:31 -0500 Subject: GUI In-Reply-To: <3FB40A5E.8050209-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <3.0.3.32.20031113155921.00f916ec@mail.look.ca> <3.0.3.32.20031113155921.00f916ec@mail.look.ca> <3FB40A5E.8050209@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20031114141631.00fac578@mail.look.ca> At 17:49 2003-11-13 -0500, David J Patrick wrote: > Otherwise, pick a distro; download, burn and install. Thank you for the encouragement. Done. Only problem was that I forgot for a while to plug in a mouse. What a difference a few years makes! Thanks again Terry. Available for contract programming. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From emir-rdkfGonbjUTTQjIoRn/dzw at public.gmane.org Fri Nov 14 19:58:32 2003 From: emir-rdkfGonbjUTTQjIoRn/dzw at public.gmane.org (Emir) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 14:58:32 -0500 Subject: ssl server In-Reply-To: <3FB50626.8030602-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <3FB50626.8030602@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <3FB533E8.2030906@codemonkeys.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 14/11/2003 11:43, Lance F. Squire wrote: > I'm trying to set-up a test https server in RH 7.3 > > So far the test certs seem to be in place (server.crt) > > The httpd.conf seems to be configured correctly... > > However when I attampt to connect I get a 'Connection refused by server'. > > What am I missing? 1. Do you have the key (server.key) in place? 2. Did you configure Apache to listen on port 443? 3. Do you have any virtual hosts set up? 4. Did you start SSL? (yes, I'm serious) 5. Is your firewall open on port 443? #3 is the biggest oops most ppl have with SSL: you can only set 1 virtual host for SSL and it has to be IP-based, not host.domain. It's to do with the stack layer SSL works on (you can read more about it in docs). You may wanna have a separate ssl.conf which you load from httpd.conf in order to keep the configs separate. On RH9 with Apache2 there's a conf.d directory where you place individual .conf files that are automagically loaded by Apache. I've worked with Apache on Solaris, FreeBSD, Slackware, Debian, and RedHat - and they all seem to do things differently, to a greater or lesser degree, so good luck :) - -- Emir. "Politicians, like diapers, have to be changed frequently. And for the very same reason." -- Anonymous -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (MingW32) iD8DBQE/tTPouSy542G+Z7QRAmxHAKCW8H5NtADyxcPpuuJOD8Z5jsbO/gCdGtRk XvhzENj8J2FmexC7OxAwd7A= =BlGB -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From emir-rdkfGonbjUTTQjIoRn/dzw at public.gmane.org Fri Nov 14 20:00:37 2003 From: emir-rdkfGonbjUTTQjIoRn/dzw at public.gmane.org (Emir) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 15:00:37 -0500 Subject: MS financial update In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3FB53465.1020703@codemonkeys.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 14/11/2003 12:20, Tom wrote: > For those who consider MS to be the enemy, here are some numbers you should look at: > > MS earnings and revenue for the quarter ending October 2003. All #'s are in billions of US$. > > As usual, Windows and Office are the money makers. > > Total: > 2.6 in earnings on $8.2 in revenue. > > Client unit (desktop windows) > > 2.26 on 2.81 > 2.27 on 2.81 year ago > > Server & Tools unit > > 0.37 on 1.87 > 0.30 on 1.63 year ago > > Information Worker (Office) > > 1.59 on 2.29 > 1.66 on 2.27 year ago > > They have 51 in (petty) cash. > > These numbers remind me that desktop Linux and OpenOffice are important. They remind me that most people still don't know/don't care, and Bill Gates is quite literally laughing all the way to the bank. - -- Emir. "Politicians, like diapers, have to be changed frequently. And for the very same reason." -- Anonymous -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (MingW32) iD8DBQE/tTRkuSy542G+Z7QRAleNAJ99De+oq1+RLJbcbHktp0utKydS3ACfbxjG MVg5v0ELkcSgvN2viYAiryM= =0+tJ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Nov 14 20:12:08 2003 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 15:12:08 -0500 Subject: linux = impossible? (no offense meant!) In-Reply-To: <20031108151915.10151.qmail-O5WfVfzUwx8@public.gmane.org> References: <20031108151915.10151.qmail@mail.com> Message-ID: <20031114201208.GG24997@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Sat, Nov 08, 2003 at 10:19:15AM -0500, ln @post.com wrote: > Thought you would all get a chuckle (I hope) from this e-mail my teenage (grade 12) son sent me. Obviously he has a love-hate relationship with linux. > > But, on the serious side, WHY is it so difficult to install anything on linux? Can't we make installing software as easy as it is on Windows? No installer on windows has EVER matches: apt-get install nameofpackage Now why doesn't all software come open source, and packaged up in Debian is a better question. :) Lennart Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Nov 14 20:25:10 2003 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 15:25:10 -0500 Subject: linux = impossible? (no offense meant!) In-Reply-To: <20031113034812.GA58845-Ko7VQgJ6otXK2ngFqW3eKNllqMFDOoLF@public.gmane.org> References: <20031112002046.GC15848@hatefulsheep.ym.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> <20031113023029.GB17240@hatefulsheep.ym.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> <20031113034812.GA58845@pluto.bsdwebhosting.net> Message-ID: <20031114202510.GH24997@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Nov 12, 2003 at 10:48:12PM -0500, Byron Desnoyers Winmill wrote: > I have an Nvidia chip, so getting X11 to work properly required compiling > XFree86 from the latest sources. (So how do I manage dependencies in > Debian now? A lot of stuff depends upon XFree86, and forcing packages > to install with dpkg is a pain.) Use a backport of a newer X, or backport it yourself. Or install your build in /usr/local and debian's in the normal place and use the newer X server and the other stuff from Debian. I have done both and both are perfectly functional. I prefer having a newer X compiled properly for Debian. > It also lookes like the Nvidia chip hoses sleep mode, since it may not be > able to wake up again. Power management is unfortunately not very mature on Linux, probably since most developers don't use Laptops, or so I imagine. :) Lennart Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From kmastin-PzQIwG9Jn9VAFePFGvp55w at public.gmane.org Fri Nov 14 20:29:35 2003 From: kmastin-PzQIwG9Jn9VAFePFGvp55w at public.gmane.org (Keith Mastin) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 15:29:35 -0500 (EST) Subject: running mpeg files In-Reply-To: <200311141327.12985.cmb-h7HJ8Pof2EbbR28j2ZUwYgC/G2K4zDHf@public.gmane.org> References: <20031114002648.24439.qmail@onlink8.onlink.net> <200311141036.30249.cmb@fivefortyfour.com> <2446.216.138.194.32.1068832617.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> <200311141327.12985.cmb@fivefortyfour.com> Message-ID: <2631.216.138.194.32.1068841775.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> > On Friday 14 November 2003 12:56 pm, Keith Mastin wrote: >> > "install 7.3 then upgrade" -- that's easy to say, but how do you go >> > about upgrading 7.3 to get to a configuration that could accept >> binaries >> > prepared say for 9.0? >> >> From the cd's, just like a regular install only choose the upgrade >> option. >> The binaries are compiled with different versions of gcc, so the >> libraries are different too. > > You are braver than me. Has this procedure caused problems for you with > any of the systems you have upgraded this way? I have some systems that > I would like to get more up to date, but had always thought that the > upgrade option would be too dangerous. I've upgraded a few redhat machines like this, with the only real problems that I can remember off the top of my head is when I (stupidly) had Ximian Gnome installed. As long as /home and all your $user_data are not on the / filesystem there should be no problems, although I can't say for sure if you will have problems if /home is on /. -- Keith -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lists-Gb8Tj4xcA4YgsBAKwltoeQ at public.gmane.org Fri Nov 14 21:22:04 2003 From: lists-Gb8Tj4xcA4YgsBAKwltoeQ at public.gmane.org (Byron Desnoyers Winmill) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 16:22:04 -0500 Subject: linux = impossible? (no offense meant!) In-Reply-To: <20031114202510.GH24997-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20031112002046.GC15848@hatefulsheep.ym.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> <20031113023029.GB17240@hatefulsheep.ym.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> <20031113034812.GA58845@pluto.bsdwebhosting.net> <20031114202510.GH24997@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20031114212204.GA46947@pluto.bsdwebhosting.net> On Fri, Nov 14, 2003 at 03:25:10PM -0500, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > Use a backport of a newer X, or backport it yourself. Backport? If you mean package XFree86 4.3.99 for woody, I don't feel like mucking around with the package manager any further. I've already recompiled LAM, because the version in woody is broken; squeak, xephem, and xv because they are not part of the distribution (I thought non-free software was supposed to go in non-free, but apparently not); and kegs, because that is the one thing where I must have the latest and greatest. Eventually, mol will be compiled because the version in woody doesn't match the kernel in woody. It most certainly doesn't match the kernel I am using now. These applications aren't exactly complex (except, maybe, mol), yet the package manager simply cannot handle it. It seems as though you are left to fend for yourself if you leave the beaten path. > Power management is unfortunately not very mature on Linux, probably > since most developers don't use Laptops, or so I imagine. :) My problem has something to do with the Nvidia chip. It sounds like PowerBook users with ATI chips are fine as far as power management goes. Byron. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Fri Nov 14 21:21:49 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 16:21:49 -0500 Subject: MS financial update In-Reply-To: <3FB53465.1020703-rdkfGonbjUTTQjIoRn/dzw@public.gmane.org> References: <3FB53465.1020703@codemonkeys.org> Message-ID: <20031114162149.157f40ae.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Fri, 14 Nov 2003 15:00:37 -0500 Emir uttered: > They remind me that most people still don't know/don't care, and Bill > Gates is quite literally laughing all the way to the bank. That's why we have to keep reminding them about things like this: "A new computer virus targets PayPal users in an attempt to dupe consumers into divulging sensitive credit card details. Mimail-I, the latest in a series of security-threatening worms, has spread widely since its first appearance yesterday. Mimail-I typically arrives in an email with a subject line of "YOUR PAYPAL.COM ACCOUNT EXPIRES", asking recipients to provide detailed information about their credit card, claiming that PayPal is "implementing a new security policy". " and most importantly: "Mimail-I is a Windows-only menace - Linux, Mac, OS/2 and Unix users are immune, as usual." http://securityfocus.com/news/7457 -- JoeHill Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "Well, he might as well have been bombing Denmark." -- Gore Vidal, on the bombing of Afghanistan after 9/11 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jab-76OBl6+JcyzDN57Tih+YPw at public.gmane.org Fri Nov 14 21:53:17 2003 From: jab-76OBl6+JcyzDN57Tih+YPw at public.gmane.org (Jeremy Baker) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 16:53:17 -0500 Subject: running mpeg files In-Reply-To: <2631.216.138.194.32.1068841775.squirrel-16UnNR4aCrhlws70yGkXPA@public.gmane.org> References: <20031114002648.24439.qmail@onlink8.onlink.net> <200311141036.30249.cmb@fivefortyfour.com> <2446.216.138.194.32.1068832617.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> <200311141327.12985.cmb@fivefortyfour.com> <2631.216.138.194.32.1068841775.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> Message-ID: <3FB54ECD.2000805@muskokatech.ca> Keith Mastin wrote: >>On Friday 14 November 2003 12:56 pm, Keith Mastin wrote: >> >> >>>>"install 7.3 then upgrade" -- that's easy to say, but how do you go >>>>about upgrading 7.3 to get to a configuration that could accept >>>> >>>> >>>binaries >>> >>> >>>>prepared say for 9.0? >>>> >>>> >>>From the cd's, just like a regular install only choose the upgrade >>>option. >>>The binaries are compiled with different versions of gcc, so the >>>libraries are different too. >>> >>> >>You are braver than me. Has this procedure caused problems for you with >>any of the systems you have upgraded this way? I have some systems that >>I would like to get more up to date, but had always thought that the >>upgrade option would be too dangerous. >> >> > >I've upgraded a few redhat machines like this, with the only real problems >that I can remember off the top of my head is when I (stupidly) had Ximian >Gnome installed. > >As long as /home and all your $user_data are not on the / filesystem there >should be no problems, although I can't say for sure if you will have >problems if /home is on /. > > I have only once tried to upgrade, and that was from RH7.2 to RH7.3, and the whole thing crapped out in the middle. I liked to refer to the result as RH7.25, since it did work, but I never did take the time to see what did or did not get upgraded. Jeremy -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From blanco-S8qYAnHmZTt34ZA5RureAJ4VBq8PJc8F at public.gmane.org Fri Nov 14 22:27:15 2003 From: blanco-S8qYAnHmZTt34ZA5RureAJ4VBq8PJc8F at public.gmane.org (Max Blanco) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 17:27:15 -0500 (EST) Subject: Apple Color Plus 14" + XFree86 help needed Message-ID: Hi All, I'm having trouble with my XFree86. I don't know how to deal with my Apple Color Plus 14" monitor, which is a fixed 35.0Khz horizontal, 66.7Hz vertical, from what I read on the net. My video card won't recognize the monitor, and dumps out at length with "Mode pool is empty" and "Screens found, but none have a usable configuration." Does anybody here have a friend who uses X with an Apple Color Plus 14" monitor, and can get me a XF86Config file that works? I'd hate to fry this monitor. thanks, max. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lists-Gb8Tj4xcA4YgsBAKwltoeQ at public.gmane.org Fri Nov 14 22:51:46 2003 From: lists-Gb8Tj4xcA4YgsBAKwltoeQ at public.gmane.org (Byron Desnoyers Winmill) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 17:51:46 -0500 Subject: Apple Color Plus 14" + XFree86 help needed In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20031114225146.GB46947@pluto.bsdwebhosting.net> Does this monitor work with the video card under Mac OS? (I'm guessing yes, since I have seen pretty old Apple monitors work with TiBooks.) If XFree86 doesn't know that your video card supports that monitor, you may be stuck using a different X server. I think that Xpmac will work with your machine. (A beige G3 or an upgraded PCI PowerMac?) On your earlier question: offb is the Open Firmware framebuffer. I have used it under NetBSD, and it is slower than the dickens. I have used it under Linux, and performance was acceptable. YMMV. Byron. On Fri, Nov 14, 2003 at 05:27:15PM -0500, Max Blanco wrote: > I'm having trouble with my XFree86. I don't know how to deal with my > Apple Color Plus 14" monitor, which is a fixed 35.0Khz horizontal, 66.7Hz > vertical, from what I read on the net. My video card won't recognize the > monitor, and dumps out at length with "Mode pool is empty" and "Screens > found, but none have a usable configuration." -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From blanco-S8qYAnHmZTt34ZA5RureAJ4VBq8PJc8F at public.gmane.org Fri Nov 14 23:28:52 2003 From: blanco-S8qYAnHmZTt34ZA5RureAJ4VBq8PJc8F at public.gmane.org (Max Blanco) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 18:28:52 -0500 (EST) Subject: Apple Color Plus 14" + XFree86 help needed In-Reply-To: <20031114225146.GB46947-Ko7VQgJ6otXK2ngFqW3eKNllqMFDOoLF@public.gmane.org> References: <20031114225146.GB46947@pluto.bsdwebhosting.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 14 Nov 2003, Byron Desnoyers Winmill wrote: > Does this monitor work with the video card under Mac OS? (I'm guessing > yes, since I have seen pretty old Apple monitors work with TiBooks.) Yes, it does, perfectly. > If XFree86 doesn't know that your video card supports that monitor, you > may be stuck using a different X server. I think that Xpmac will work > with your machine. (A beige G3 or an upgraded PCI PowerMac?) beige G3. I'm reluctant to change xfree86. I had a similar problem way back when, and I suspect it is a question of having the magic combination. The thing is, I'd rather not have to delve into arcana like the XFree86-Video-Timings-HOWTO... someone, somewhere out there has to have an Apple Color Plus 14" that works with X already. I don't have the cashola to buy another, newer, one. Anybody have an Apple monitor that works but is headed for the garbage bin? > On your earlier question: offb is the Open Firmware framebuffer. I have > used it under NetBSD, and it is slower than the dickens. I have used it > under Linux, and performance was acceptable. YMMV. There's another implementation of Xwindows out there?? > Byron. Thanks, Byron... -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From kris-y6ukv7ArdSHYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 15 00:03:32 2003 From: kris-y6ukv7ArdSHYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Kristofer Coward) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 19:03:32 -0500 Subject: honeypots In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20031115000332.GI745@melon.org> On Fri, Nov 14, 2003 at 12:04:44PM -0500, gbell72 wrote: > Lately I've been doing some research on honeypots, I've come across a vast > amount of information on them but am presently unsure on how to go about > deploying one. As I say I'm only doing this for research purposes but would > like to witness one in action first hand. > How difficult would it be to set one or two up, and how would they best be > deployed to emulate an ftp and webserver? These two services I am presently > running. Would one honeypot do the job? And how would I go about strategically > placing them. > I've read that low-level honeypots rarely fool an attacker. I realize it's > mostly organizations that utilize high-level ones. What type of honeypot would > best fit a 5 system network. My network consists of 3 linux systems and a win > xp pro system. > Any tips or advice greatly appreciated. Honeypots are a research tool used by security professionals/experts for purposes like identifying new rootkits, and otherwise examining the behavior of attackers once they've compromised a system. A certain degree of skill in identifying a compromised sytem, and analysing how its been compromised is required for the honeypot to be at all valuable. Basically, if you need to ask a nonspecialist mailing list how to set up a honeypot, the only answer anyone can responsibly give you is: don't. -- Kristofer Coward http://unripe.melon.org/ GPG Fingerprint: 2BF3 957D 310A FEEC 4733 830E 21A4 05C7 1FEB 12B3 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 15 01:28:44 2003 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 20:28:44 -0500 Subject: GUI In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.20031113155921.00f916ec-BF7s+LSmFG27ALip+uieHQ@public.gmane.org> References: <3.0.3.32.20031113155921.00f916ec@mail.look.ca> Message-ID: <20031115012844.GA1291@node1.opengeometry.net> On Thu, Nov 13, 2003 at 03:59:21PM -0500, Terrence Enger wrote: > Greetings, > > Several years ago, I got a GUI working on my Linux machine, but > I remember that it was a lot of work. Now, I am tempted to try > again, but worried about the time it may take. Starting from > Slackware 9.0, how much work might I be looking at? Would it > be a good idea to upgrade first to Slackware 9.1 to get > XFree86 4.3.0? > > Thank you, all, for your help. Doesn't matter. Install Slackware-9.0/9.1, and try out KDE/GNOME. When upgrading, just save your "personal data", then do another fresh install. -- William Park, Open Geometry Consulting, Linux solution for data management and processing. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jason-gaRZxGPHtpBxZtjKW1aY+1aTQe2KTcn/ at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 15 02:17:02 2003 From: jason-gaRZxGPHtpBxZtjKW1aY+1aTQe2KTcn/ at public.gmane.org (Jason Shein) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 21:17:02 -0500 Subject: Mandrake 9.2 ISO's + LG CDROM firmware fix Message-ID: <3FB58C9E.6050403@pcsecurityonline.com> Sounds like LG has fixed the problem the were having with the Mandrake 9.2 release by issuing a firmware upgrade and a recovery procedure for toasted drives. http://us.lgservice.com/ MAndrake 9.2 ISO's are now available here. http://www.mandrakelinux.com/en/ftp.php3#iso -- " Eventually people tire of repairing broken Windows, And decide to replace them with something stronger" (o_ //\ Linux - The Choice Of A GNU Generation V_/_ Jason Shein Linux Registered User #281100 jason-gaRZxGPHtpBxZtjKW1aY+1aTQe2KTcn/@public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From ckoitz-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 15 02:39:37 2003 From: ckoitz-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Stephen Provencher) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 21:39:37 -0500 Subject: Installing Progeny Debian References: <20031110063804.5b57ab77.joehill@sympatico.ca> <3FAFD2CF.5060308@sympatico.ca> <3FAFBC8E.3060504@istop.com> <20031114163602.GD24997@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <3FB591E9.3B62C7FD@istop.com> Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Mon, Nov 10, 2003 at 05:27:58PM +0100, Carola Koitz wrote: > > I have a system on which is already installed Windows 2000, SuSE > > Professional 8.1, > > Mandrake 9.1 and Red Hat 9. While installing Progeny Debian the > > partition table > > wasn't found and I was asked if I want to create a new one. Is there any > > way to get also > > Debian installed without destroying all the data on the drive. > > It says in the manual "if you encounter this situation, please contact > > Customer Support" > > What version of Progeny is that? I thought progeny had stopped making > releases quite a while ago and that they didn't support it anymore. > You are right, it is an old version, version 1.0 with kernel 2.2.18. I bought it at the UT Computershop and I did not know at that time that it was not supported any more. I searched the old Progeny bug reports on the web. It is not possible to get it installed on a disk with partition tables created with Microsoft Windows I installed it on a Toshiba Satellite 4100 XCDT. That went fine. > > Any chance the drive uses a dynamic partition table? (I doubt it). > > Maybe it is just confused or can't find the drive. > > Lennart Sorensen > -- > Carola Koitz The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From teddymills-VFlxZYho3OA at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 15 02:55:41 2003 From: teddymills-VFlxZYho3OA at public.gmane.org (Teddy Mills) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 21:55:41 -0500 Subject: Number 3 computer in the world is a Linux box Message-ID: <000a01c3ab23$f59f9ff0$0301a8c0@amazon> http://www.top500.org/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From dgenn-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 15 03:04:18 2003 From: dgenn-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (DanG) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 22:04:18 -0500 Subject: Number 3 computer in the world is a Linux box In-Reply-To: <000a01c3ab23$f59f9ff0$0301a8c0-vAnPq90cUBg@public.gmane.org> References: <000a01c3ab23$f59f9ff0$0301a8c0@amazon> Message-ID: <20031115030427.MKZN406311.fep03-mail.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com@pittlandctr8at> SWEET! :-) http://www.supercomputingonline.com/article.php?sid=5007 -----Original Message----- From: owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org [mailto:owner-tlug at ss.org] On Behalf Of Teddy Mills Sent: Friday, November 14, 2003 9:56 PM To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Subject: [TLUG]: Number 3 computer in the world is a Linux box http://www.top500.org/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lists-Gb8Tj4xcA4YgsBAKwltoeQ at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 15 05:02:48 2003 From: lists-Gb8Tj4xcA4YgsBAKwltoeQ at public.gmane.org (Byron Desnoyers Winmill) Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2003 00:02:48 -0500 Subject: Apple Color Plus 14" + XFree86 help needed In-Reply-To: References: <20031114225146.GB46947@pluto.bsdwebhosting.net> Message-ID: <20031115050248.GA65853@pluto.bsdwebhosting.net> On Fri, Nov 14, 2003 at 06:28:52PM -0500, Max Blanco wrote: > > On your earlier question: offb is the Open Firmware framebuffer. I have > > used it under NetBSD, and it is slower than the dickens. I have used it > > under Linux, and performance was acceptable. YMMV. > > There's another implementation of Xwindows out there?? The offb driver is not another implementation of X11, but part of XFree86. Xpmac is another implementation of X11 (which may or may not be based upon XFree86). The only other X servers I am aware of require Mac OS. It would take some creativity to run them under Linux. Open Firmware is similar to the ROM BIOS on a Wintel box. It provides some video services. I would imagine that the offb driver uses those services, but I'm not sure. Byron. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From blsonne-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 15 06:04:37 2003 From: blsonne-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Byron Sonne) Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2003 01:04:37 -0500 Subject: Number 3 computer in the world is a Linux box In-Reply-To: <000a01c3ab23$f59f9ff0$0301a8c0-vAnPq90cUBg@public.gmane.org> References: <000a01c3ab23$f59f9ff0$0301a8c0@amazon> Message-ID: <3FB5C1F5.5010400@rogers.com> > http://www.top500.org/ It's kinda freaky how far ahead that Japanese Earth Simulator is... I suspect what they're really doing with it is rendering anime porn. ...and where's the obligatory slashdotesque 'imagine a beowulf cluster of those' comment? ;) -- For good, return good. For evil, return justice. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From blsonne-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 15 06:11:00 2003 From: blsonne-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Byron Sonne) Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2003 01:11:00 -0500 Subject: honeypots In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3FB5C374.4090704@rogers.com> > Any tips or advice greatly appreciated. Subscribe to some/all of the SecurityFocus mailing lists: http://www.securityfocus.com/archive I did and it is quite entertaining and I've learned a good bit of stuff. There are tons of excellent docs out there, I think a dude called Lance Spitzner does some serious work with them. There's something called the Honeynet Project (http://www.honeynet.org/misc/project.html) that does some pretty hardcore stuff. Also, check out honeyd, it "is a small daemon that creates virtual hosts on a network. The hosts can be configured to run arbitrary services, and their personality can be adapted so that they appear to be running certain operating systems" (http://www.citi.umich.edu/u/provos/honeyd/) -- For good, return good. For evil, return justice. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From mr6re9-mI4xJ4qlgtBiLUuM0BA3LQ at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 15 14:47:03 2003 From: mr6re9-mI4xJ4qlgtBiLUuM0BA3LQ at public.gmane.org (GDHough) Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2003 09:47:03 -0500 Subject: honeypots In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200311150947.03269.mr6re9@execulink.com> On Friday 14 November 2003 12:04, gbell72 wrote: > Lately I've been doing some research on honeypots, I've come across a vast > amount of information on them but am presently unsure on how to go about > deploying one. Me too. I've become a bored hobbyist. I view every dropped SYN packet as a lost educational opportunity. I'm looking for some challenge, excitement, and a new vector for learning. I believe usermode linux is a prerequisite. If you decide to give it a try, I will too. We could possibly share our experiences during the set-up. My network is similar to yours with one less linux machine and a troublesome Win98 box. farmer6re9 -- Eating Crow is better with MyCrowSauce -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From aitken-BwLjziHGQLusTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 6 12:38:32 2003 From: aitken-BwLjziHGQLusTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (aitken-BwLjziHGQLusTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org) Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2003 07:38:32 -0500 Subject: running mpeg files References: <20031114002648.24439.qmail@onlink8.onlink.net> <200311141036.30249.cmb@fivefortyfour.com> Message-ID: <3FAA40C8.3B63C93C@onlink.net> Charly Baker wrote: > "install 7.3 then upgrade" -- that's easy to say, but how do you go about > upgrading 7.3 to get to a configuration that could accept binaries prepared > say for 9.0? I don't fully understand your statement. I thought that upgrading upgrades all packages, kernel - the works. So, you get everything you had and all the new stuff. Unless my memory fails - for instance, when I upgraded from 7.3, my sound still worked, mpegs play, still had AbiWord, and my istallation of WordPerfect was still there, but I also got goodies that load with 8, like OO. Chris -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From aitken-BwLjziHGQLusTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 6 12:48:37 2003 From: aitken-BwLjziHGQLusTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (aitken-BwLjziHGQLusTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org) Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2003 07:48:37 -0500 Subject: running mpeg files References: <20031114002648.24439.qmail@onlink8.onlink.net> <200311141036.30249.cmb@fivefortyfour.com> <2446.216.138.194.32.1068832617.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> <200311141327.12985.cmb@fivefortyfour.com> Message-ID: <3FAA4325.CC1C145A@onlink.net> Charly Baker wrote: > On Friday 14 November 2003 12:56 pm, Keith Mastin wrote: > > > "install 7.3 then upgrade" -- that's easy to say, but how do you go > [...] > > You are braver than me. Has this procedure caused problems for you with any > of the systems you have upgraded this way? I have some systems that I would > like to get more up to date, but had always thought that the upgrade option > would be too dangerous. I have not had trouble with it. For me it is a "necessity" (only because I'm not ready to learn how to compile sound into the kernel, et al) - I need sound. Also, I like AbiWord which doesn't load out-of-the-box in 8.0. I have not done an upgrade to 9. This will all be academic pretty soon, as I am probably moving to Mandrake (out of curiosity and for my kids), Debian (because of the passion with which people on this list speak of it) and S.u.S.E. (because I may be moving to Europe, and I would like to leverege my Novell skills). Chris -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 15 17:41:02 2003 From: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2003 12:41:02 -0500 (EST) Subject: Number 3 computer in the world is a Linux box In-Reply-To: <3FB5C1F5.5010400-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <000a01c3ab23$f59f9ff0$0301a8c0@amazon> <3FB5C1F5.5010400@rogers.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 15 Nov 2003, Byron Sonne wrote: > > http://www.top500.org/ > > It's kinda freaky how far ahead that Japanese Earth Simulator is... I > suspect what they're really doing with it is rendering anime porn. ;) I guess sites nominate their supercomputers for testing & inclusion in the list. I wonder how many powerful supercomputers are _not_ included in the list. Maybe the NSA has a supercomputer rendering anami porn at 10x time speed of the Earth Simulator ;) The Lustre cluster filesystem used on #3 looks good: http://www.lustre.org/ Rob -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From dbmacg-j4iOX5ZKO4mumhQq9Hcxfg at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 15 17:50:15 2003 From: dbmacg-j4iOX5ZKO4mumhQq9Hcxfg at public.gmane.org (Duncan MacGregor) Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2003 12:50:15 -0500 Subject: GUI In-Reply-To: <20031115012844.GA1291-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <3.0.3.32.20031113155921.00f916ec@mail.look.ca> Message-ID: <3FB62107.1284.C33D49@localhost> Linux GUIs like RAM. How much RAM do you have? Duncan On 14 Nov 2003 at 20:28, William Park wrote: Date sent: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 20:28:44 -0500 From: William Park To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Subject: Re: [TLUG]: GUI Send reply to: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > On Thu, Nov 13, 2003 at 03:59:21PM -0500, Terrence Enger wrote: > > Greetings, > > > > Several years ago, I got a GUI working on my Linux machine, but > > I remember that it was a lot of work. Now, I am tempted to try > > again, but worried about the time it may take. Starting from > > Slackware 9.0, how much work might I be looking at? Would it > > be a good idea to upgrade first to Slackware 9.1 to get > > XFree86 4.3.0? > > > > Thank you, all, for your help. > > Doesn't matter. Install Slackware-9.0/9.1, and try out KDE/GNOME. When > upgrading, just save your "personal data", then do another fresh > install. > > -- > William Park, Open Geometry Consulting, > Linux solution for data management and processing. > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml ---- Duncan MacGregor -- Toronto -- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From login-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 15 18:47:08 2003 From: login-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (login-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org) Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2003 13:47:08 -0500 Subject: R: Red Hat Enterprise Linux ES In-Reply-To: <3FB62107.1284.C33D49-bi+AKbBUZKZeoWH0uzbU5w@public.gmane.org> References: <3.0.3.32.20031113155921.00f916ec@mail.look.ca> <3FB62107.1284.C33D49@localhost> Message-ID: <1492947808.20031115134708@istop.com> Hi all, I am interested to buy Red Hat Enterprise Linux ES for one of my clients. The early Red Hat OS used to sit on Future Shop. I looked at futureshop.ca and it appears they no longer carry. Where I can buy Red Hat Enterprise Linux ES around Toronto / Mississauga? Should I hit Red Hat company direct for such purchase? Thanks! S. Mohammad [login-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org] -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From whchen-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 15 19:15:56 2003 From: whchen-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (Wei Hua Chen) Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2003 14:15:56 -0500 Subject: R: Red Hat Enterprise Linux ES References: <3.0.3.32.20031113155921.00f916ec@mail.look.ca> <3FB62107.1284.C33D49@localhost> <1492947808.20031115134708@istop.com> Message-ID: <001601c3abac$e59e7e80$0600a8c0@dell> Do you try Amazon.ca? ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Saturday, November 15, 2003 1:47 PM Subject: [TLUG]: R: Red Hat Enterprise Linux ES > > Hi all, > > I am interested to buy Red Hat Enterprise Linux ES for one of my > clients. The early Red Hat OS used to sit on Future Shop. I looked > at futureshop.ca and it appears they no longer carry. > > Where I can buy Red Hat Enterprise Linux ES around Toronto / Mississauga? > Should I hit Red Hat company direct for such purchase? Thanks! > > S. Mohammad [login-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org] > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From tenger-ew0EfhANLmVEfu+5ix1nRw at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 15 19:12:50 2003 From: tenger-ew0EfhANLmVEfu+5ix1nRw at public.gmane.org (Terrence Enger) Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2003 14:12:50 -0500 Subject: GUI In-Reply-To: <3FB62107.1284.C33D49-bi+AKbBUZKZeoWH0uzbU5w@public.gmane.org> References: <20031115012844.GA1291@node1.opengeometry.net> <3.0.3.32.20031113155921.00f916ec@mail.look.ca> <3FB62107.1284.C33D49@localhost> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20031115141250.00fbe930@mail.look.ca> At 12:50 2003-11-15 -0500, you wrote: >Linux GUIs like RAM. How much RAM do you have? 256 MB. Response time is not bad. Terry. > >Duncan > > >On 14 Nov 2003 at 20:28, William Park wrote: > >Date sent: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 20:28:44 -0500 >From: William Park >To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org >Subject: Re: [TLUG]: GUI >Send reply to: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > >> On Thu, Nov 13, 2003 at 03:59:21PM -0500, Terrence Enger wrote: >> > Greetings, >> > >> > Several years ago, I got a GUI working on my Linux machine, but >> > I remember that it was a lot of work. Now, I am tempted to try >> > again, but worried about the time it may take. Starting from >> > Slackware 9.0, how much work might I be looking at? Would it >> > be a good idea to upgrade first to Slackware 9.1 to get >> > XFree86 4.3.0? >> > >> > Thank you, all, for your help. >> >> Doesn't matter. Install Slackware-9.0/9.1, and try out KDE/GNOME. >When >> upgrading, just save your "personal data", then do another fresh >> install. >> >> -- >> William Park, Open Geometry Consulting, > >> Linux solution for data management and processing. >> -- >> The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org >> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > > >---- >Duncan MacGregor -- Toronto -- >-- >The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org >TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 15 19:22:27 2003 From: davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (David J Patrick) Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2003 14:22:27 -0500 Subject: GUI In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.20031115141250.00fbe930-BF7s+LSmFG27ALip+uieHQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20031115012844.GA1291@node1.opengeometry.net> <3.0.3.32.20031113155921.00f916ec@mail.look.ca> <3.0.3.32.20031115141250.00fbe930@mail.look.ca> Message-ID: <3FB67CF3.8080900@sympatico.ca> Terrence Enger wrote: >At 12:50 2003-11-15 -0500, you wrote: > > >>Linux GUIs like RAM. How much RAM do you have? >> >> > >256 MB. Response time is not bad. > >Terry. > > > Did you go with Slackware 9.1 ? kernel 2.6test5 and all ? Might that have something to do with the peppy response time ? hmmm ? djp -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From tenger-ew0EfhANLmVEfu+5ix1nRw at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 15 20:24:19 2003 From: tenger-ew0EfhANLmVEfu+5ix1nRw at public.gmane.org (Terrence Enger) Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2003 15:24:19 -0500 Subject: GUI In-Reply-To: <3FB67CF3.8080900-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <3.0.3.32.20031115141250.00fbe930@mail.look.ca> <20031115012844.GA1291@node1.opengeometry.net> <3.0.3.32.20031113155921.00f916ec@mail.look.ca> <3.0.3.32.20031115141250.00fbe930@mail.look.ca> <3FB67CF3.8080900@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20031115152419.006cac8c@mail.look.ca> At 14:22 2003-11-15 -0500, you wrote: > Terrence Enger wrote: > > > At 12:50 2003-11-15 -0500, you wrote: > > > > > > > Linux GUIs like RAM. How much RAM do you have? > > > > > > > > > > 256 MB. Response time is not bad. > > > > Terry. > > > > > > > Did you go with Slackware 9.1 ? kernel 2.6test5 and all ? > Might that have something to do with the peppy response time ? hmmm ? > djp No, stayed with slackware 9.0. It already has XFree86 4.3.0. The response is not really peppy, just good enough for me. Actually, I do not expect actually to use the GUI very much. The immediate motivation for installing it was the possibility of some paying work which seemed to "recede into the distance" when I told caller that I was using Linux exclusively from the command line. Of course, there are some things that I cannot do from the command line: viewing .pdf or .dvi files and so forth. I am now one step closer to being able do all my work through Linux. Meanwhile, the combination of middle-aged eyes, a small elderly monitor, and a dislike of fumbling for the mouse all suggest that I will be using the command line for quite a while. That brings up another thought, though. Since my first question on Thursday, I read something somewhere suggesting that I can run a GUI and still have access to the text consoles via F1, F2, et cetera. I do not seem to be able to do this using Slackware 9.0, XFree86 4.3.0 and KDE 3.1. Now that I know I get the GUI running, I wish I had paid more attention to the fine points. Any suggestions? Terry. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From taavi-LbuTpDkqzNzXI80/IeQp7B2eb7JE58TQ at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 15 20:55:20 2003 From: taavi-LbuTpDkqzNzXI80/IeQp7B2eb7JE58TQ at public.gmane.org (Taavi Burns) Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2003 15:55:20 -0500 Subject: GUI In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.20031115152419.006cac8c-BF7s+LSmFG27ALip+uieHQ@public.gmane.org> References: <3.0.3.32.20031115141250.00fbe930@mail.look.ca> <20031115012844.GA1291@node1.opengeometry.net> <3.0.3.32.20031113155921.00f916ec@mail.look.ca> <3.0.3.32.20031115141250.00fbe930@mail.look.ca> <3.0.3.32.20031115152419.006cac8c@mail.look.ca> Message-ID: <20031115205520.GC5077@hatefulsheep.ym.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> On Sat, Nov 15, 2003 at 03:24:19PM -0500, Terrence Enger wrote: > Meanwhile, the combination of middle-aged eyes, a small > elderly monitor, and a dislike of fumbling for the mouse all > suggest that I will be using the command line for quite a > while. With proper settings in X, you should be able to take advantage of the added flexibility of graphics and a configurable window manager and still be able to read the text on the screen. Konsole has a number of settings which might be helpful. Try using a custom font (Andale Mono with antialiasing enabled looks VERY nice on my LCD; not sure if it'll be an improvement on an old, fuzzy CRT). You can also set Konsole to be full-screen, and disable all of the decorations, effectively leaving you with "just" a console, but while running X. You can access all of the settings through the menus, which are always accessible by right-clicking inside the Konsole. > That brings up another thought, though. Since my first > question on Thursday, I read something somewhere suggesting > that I can run a GUI and still have access to the text > consoles via F1, F2, et cetera. I do not seem to be able to Absolutley. CTRL-ALT-F1 should take you to VTY0, F2 for VTY1, etc. X often lives somewhere around CTRL-ALT-F7, F9, or something like that (all depends on the distro, see /etc/inittab. There should be a section that reads like: # TERMINALS c1:12345:respawn:/sbin/agetty 38400 tty1 linux c2:12345:respawn:/sbin/agetty 38400 tty2 linux c3:12345:respawn:/sbin/agetty 38400 tty3 linux c4:12345:respawn:/sbin/agetty 38400 tty4 linux c5:12345:respawn:/sbin/agetty 38400 tty5 linux c6:12345:respawn:/sbin/agetty 38400 tty6 linux X will pick the next unused one (i.e. c7, i.e. CTRL-ALT-F7) in my case. And yes, this means that you can run X more than once at the same time, and switch between different X sessions. :) Have fun! -- taa /*eof*/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From kmastin-PzQIwG9Jn9VAFePFGvp55w at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 15 20:44:41 2003 From: kmastin-PzQIwG9Jn9VAFePFGvp55w at public.gmane.org (Keith Mastin) Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2003 15:44:41 -0500 (EST) Subject: GUI In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.20031115152419.006cac8c-BF7s+LSmFG27ALip+uieHQ@public.gmane.org> References: <3.0.3.32.20031115141250.00fbe930@mail.look.ca><20031115012844.GA1291@node1.opengeometry.net><3.0.3.32.20031113155921.00f916ec@mail.look.ca><3.0.3.32.20031115141250.00fbe930@mail.look.ca> <3.0.3.32.20031115152419.006cac8c@mail.look.ca> Message-ID: <3796.216.138.194.32.1068929081.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> > That brings up another thought, though. Since my first > question on Thursday, I read something somewhere suggesting > that I can run a GUI and still have access to the text > consoles via F1, F2, et cetera. I do not seem to be able to > do this using Slackware 9.0, XFree86 4.3.0 and KDE 3.1. Now > that I know I get the GUI running, I wish I had paid more > attention to the fine points. Any suggestions? Try Ctrl/Alt/F2 for the first text console. The same combo through F6 should give you more consoles, with Ctrl/Alt/F7 bringing you back to your X gui session, and F1 running X -- Keith -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 15 21:06:59 2003 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2003 16:06:59 -0500 Subject: Number 3 computer in the world is a Linux box In-Reply-To: References: <000a01c3ab23$f59f9ff0$0301a8c0@amazon> <3FB5C1F5.5010400@rogers.com> Message-ID: <3FB69573.6090905@rogers.com> Robert Brockway wrote: > On Sat, 15 Nov 2003, Byron Sonne wrote: > > >>>http://www.top500.org/ >> >>It's kinda freaky how far ahead that Japanese Earth Simulator is... I >>suspect what they're really doing with it is rendering anime porn. > > > ;) > > I guess sites nominate their supercomputers for testing & inclusion in > the list. I wonder how many powerful supercomputers are _not_ included in > the list. Maybe the NSA has a supercomputer rendering anami porn at 10x > time speed of the Earth Simulator ;) Either that, or some NSA employee is playing a *FAST* game of solitaire! ;-) > > The Lustre cluster filesystem used on #3 looks good: > > http://www.lustre.org/ > > Rob > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jkls-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 16 00:27:31 2003 From: jkls-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (jkls) Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2003 19:27:31 -0500 Subject: bmtp file permissions? Message-ID: <3FB6C473.3000202@sympatico.ca> I would like to be able to use the lastb command. I have created btmp with "touch /var/log/btmp" but I suppose I should change it to have the same permissions and group ownership as /var/log/utmp? Also, is there anything else I should do to get this working? Thanks. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From mggagne-oUREY1nl/XXQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 16 00:55:42 2003 From: mggagne-oUREY1nl/XXQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Marcel (Free Thinker at Large) Gagne) Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2003 19:55:42 -0500 Subject: Toronto Municipal Open Source Revolution, anyone ? In-Reply-To: <1068753543.3fb3e2879ebc5-2RFepEojUI0fbXvGcxQkLSwD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <1068753543.3fb3e2879ebc5@webmail.utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <200311151955.42423.mggagne@salmar.com> Hello everyone, Another government example in Canada that you may wish to examine is Legal Aid Manitoba. I wrote an article on their move to Linux a little while back. What makes this one interesting is that Scott Balneaves, the sysadmin up there, actually gave me numbers in terms of how much their move saved taxpayers. For the story, click on yon link below. http://www.informit.com/isapi/product_id~{17670A14-CC0A-4597-9D81-BB34BAFE9FEA}/content/index.asp Like CSD Toronto, this certainly qualifies as a model for government moving to Linux. Take care out there. -- Marcel (Writer and Free Thinker at Large) Gagn? Note: This massagee wos nat speel or gramer-checkered. Mandatory home page reference - http://www.marcelgagne.com/ Author : "Moving to Linux: Kiss the Blue Screen of Death Goodbye!" Also by Marcel : Linux System Administration, A User's Guide Join the WFTL-LUG : http://www.salmar.com/marcel/wftllugform.html -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 16 01:30:05 2003 From: fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Fraser Campbell) Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2003 20:30:05 -0500 Subject: R: Red Hat Enterprise Linux ES In-Reply-To: <1492947808.20031115134708-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <3.0.3.32.20031113155921.00f916ec@mail.look.ca> <3FB62107.1284.C33D49@localhost> <1492947808.20031115134708@istop.com> Message-ID: <200311152030.06224.fraser@wehave.net> On November 15, 2003 01:47 pm, login-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org wrote: > Where I can buy Red Hat Enterprise Linux ES around Toronto / Mississauga? > Should I hit Red Hat company direct for such purchase? Thanks! You can only buy redhat from redhat. See http://www.redhat.com/software/rhel/purchase/ ... Red Hat's Enterprise Linux family of operating systems is available on a per-system, annual subscription basis. The subscriptions are offered in three editions: Basic, Standard, and Premium -- each with varying support levels and delivery options -- so you can choose the subscription combination that best meets the needs of your business. If you want to go on the cheap then Redhat Enterprise Server will cost you $349 every year and you'll get no support from redhat (other than updates). It's $799 per year with some support. -- Fraser Campbell http://www.wehave.net/ Georgetown, Ontario, Canada Debian GNU/Linux -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 16 02:54:09 2003 From: davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (David J Patrick) Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2003 21:54:09 -0500 Subject: Toronto Municipal Open Source Revolution, anyone ? In-Reply-To: <200311151955.42423.mggagne-oUREY1nl/XXQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <1068753543.3fb3e2879ebc5@webmail.utoronto.ca> <200311151955.42423.mggagne@salmar.com> Message-ID: <3FB6E6D1.9090903@sympatico.ca> Marcel (Free Thinker at Large) Gagne wrote: >---snip--- > >Like CSD Toronto, this certainly qualifies as a model for government moving to >Linux. > >Take care out there. > > > Yeah Marcel ! That's the stuff ! Anyone else ? djp -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From legrady-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 16 03:03:10 2003 From: legrady-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Tom Legrady) Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2003 22:03:10 -0500 Subject: Toronto Municipal Open Source Revolution, anyone ? In-Reply-To: <200311151955.42423.mggagne-oUREY1nl/XXQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <1068753543.3fb3e2879ebc5@webmail.utoronto.ca> <200311151955.42423.mggagne@salmar.com> Message-ID: <3FB6E8EE.70408@rogers.com> Great article! And great timing, Marcel ... I'm working on a proposal right this weekend. I found it at http://www.informit.com/isapi/product_id~%7B17670A14-CC0A-4597-9D81-BB34BAFE9FEA%7D/session_id~%7B8066033A-9840-4AAB-A057-5B7FC9C54CEF%7D/content/index.asp -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 16 04:29:59 2003 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2003 23:29:59 -0500 Subject: (fwd) Even bigger WOW... Korean government has 120,000 Linux Desktops installed... Message-ID: <200311160429.hAG4Tx7s000664@node1.opengeometry.net> An old news, but FYI... -- forwarded message -- Path: uni-berlin.de!fu-berlin.de!news2.telebyte.nl!news.cambrium.nl!news.cambrium.nl!news.cambrium.nl!amsnews01.chello.com!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!internal-news-hub.cableinet.net!news-text.cableinet.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Message-ID: <1546610.fy26zhQVIh-cWRoqC4x4QrbHMAQ2rGlWqG7lP8klsIx at public.gmane.org> Supersedes: <1512677.8C0e8O9o76-cWRoqC4x4QrbHMAQ2rGlWqG7lP8klsIx at public.gmane.org> From: paul cooke Subject: Even bigger WOW... Korean government has 120,000 Linux Desktops installed... Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy Reply-To: paul_cooke-6E9PJtSbqNYT3cCFFUkr6SzAX2Ea4KQ0 at public.gmane.org Lines: 8 Organization: you must be joking MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit X-fave-whisky: a good single malt X-pet-peeve: timewasters X-Newsreader: guess Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 00:14:45 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 82.33.30.1 X-Complaints-To: abuse-QgLWrMLu8clzjhtm8Ag3mw at public.gmane.org X-Trace: news-text.cableinet.net 1068941685 82.33.30.1 (Sun, 16 Nov 2003 00:14:45 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 00:14:45 GMT Xref: uni-berlin.de comp.os.linux.advocacy:953438 and I don't remember any shouting in here about the Korean government going with 120,000 Linux desktops either... looks like yet another one of Microsoft's dominoes has fallen over in the East... -- COMPUTER POWER TO THE PEOPLE! DOWN WITH CYBERCRUD! -- end of forwarded message -- -- William Park, Open Geometry Consulting, Linux solution for data management and processing. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From anton-F0u+EriZ6ihBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 16 17:36:17 2003 From: anton-F0u+EriZ6ihBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Anton Markov) Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 12:36:17 -0500 Subject: Missing device In-Reply-To: <3FB6B721.3000209-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FA1B699.9000207@sympatico.ca> <3FA1D118.5050402@truxtar.com> <3FB6B721.3000209@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <3FB7B591.1010702@truxtar.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Hi John, Try installing kino with apt-get: apt-get install kino And for some extra effects and filters do: apt-get install kinoplus That's how I installed Kino on my computer. To compile it I think you need gnome-libs-devel or something. Try it with apt-get first though. I am replying to the whole list so someone else could maybe help you with the compiling issue (if you still want to compile). Hope this helps Anton John Moniz wrote: | Hi Anton; | | I have been grabing dv with dvgrab, but was not able to compile kino - I | got the following errors when doing "./configure": | checking whether to enable maintainer-specific portions of Makefiles... no | checking for gnome-config... no | checking for gnomeConf.sh file in /usr/local/lib... not found | configure: error: Could not find the gnomeConf.sh file that is generated | by gnome-libs install | | But at least I can work with dvgrab for now. Have you transferred dv | from the PC to the camcorder? I have a Sony TRV 740. | | Thanks, | | John. | | | Anton Markov wrote: | |> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- |> Hash: SHA1 |> |> Hi John, |> |> What kernel version and which distribution are you running? You need a |> 2.4 series kernel (you could patch a 2.2 kernel, but I think it's best |> to just upgrade). |> |> Try: |> mknod /dev/raw1394 c 171 0 |> modprobe raw1394 |> |> This did the job for my Via OHCI adapter and Sony TRV140 DV camcorder. |> |> If you need more help, check out the info at |> |> |> I would also suggest you use a higher-level program such as Kino |> |> |> Enjoy :) |> |> John Moniz wrote: |> | I am trying to capture some video from a dig video camera connected |> to a |> | firewire card. When I run the dvgrab command, I get the following |> error: |> | |> | raw1394 - couldn't get handle: No such device |> | This error usually means that the ieee1394 driver is not loaded or that |> | /dev/raw1394 does not exist. |> | |> | I have these modules loaded: |> | ohci1394 18600 0 (unused) |> | ieee1394 45388 0 [ohci1394] |> | |> | But I have no /dev/raw1394 device listed. How do I make/get such a |> | device? I couldn't find an "mk..." type command that might do it. |> | |> | Thanks, |> | |> | John. | | | | - -- Anton Markov <("anton" + "@" + "truxtar" + "." + "com")> GnuPGP Key fingerprint = 5546 A6E2 1FFB 9BB8 15C3 CE34 46B7 8D93 3AD1 44B4 "The difference between insanity and genius is measured only by success." ~ - Some bad guy from 007 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQE/t7WRRreNkzrRRLQRAnRsAKCTnWUo/8IjEmdSqVYDR4zQnYCw0wCeIzoV 9pkLA3U+Aha6EyiWTq+zhe4= =St5D -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From login-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 16 18:25:50 2003 From: login-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (login-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org) Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 13:25:50 -0500 Subject: R: Red Hat Enterprise Linux ES In-Reply-To: <200311152030.06224.fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org> References: <3.0.3.32.20031113155921.00f916ec@mail.look.ca> <3FB62107.1284.C33D49@localhost> <1492947808.20031115134708@istop.com> <200311152030.06224.fraser@wehave.net> Message-ID: <494383813.20031116132550@istop.com> Thanks all, I learned that Amazon.ca do carry Red Hat Enterprise Linux Es 2.1 (CAD $ 1100+). I am looking for Red Hat Enterprise Linux ES which can only be purchased directly from RH and I am going to buy from Red Hat. Next how does this work: "Red Hat's Enterprise Linux family of operating systems is available on a per-system, annual subscription basis." After the one year of subscription expired, the OS will be out-dated, right? By dropping the Red Hat v9 (https://www.redhat.com/software/rhelorfedora/), Red Hat want to work with Enterprise level only. What will happen to home end users? The choice Red Hat is giving to go with Enterprise Linux family else forget it. This was same sort of Sun's behavior in term of pricing for their Intel version so that on average user can not afford to buy it (OS). When Sun removed this constrain and went on ease on licensing, many people learned Solaris on their Intel box. Eventually, Sun gets more qualified admins by doing so. This is very discouraging from Red Hat by removing the non-enterprise OS from their shelf and forcing to buy Enterprise version at least for average home users. S. Mohammad [ login-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org] Who Do You Want to Buy Today? Saturday, November 15, 2003, 8:30:05 PM, you wrote: FC> On November 15, 2003 01:47 pm, login-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org wrote: >> Where I can buy Red Hat Enterprise Linux ES around Toronto / Mississauga? >> Should I hit Red Hat company direct for such purchase? Thanks! FC> You can only buy redhat from redhat. See FC> http://www.redhat.com/software/rhel/purchase/ ... FC> Red Hat's Enterprise Linux family of operating systems is available on a FC> per-system, annual subscription basis. The subscriptions are offered in FC> three editions: Basic, Standard, and Premium -- each with varying support FC> levels and delivery options -- so you can choose the subscription FC> combination that best meets the needs of your business. FC> If you want to go on the cheap then Redhat Enterprise Server will cost you FC> $349 every year and you'll get no support from redhat (other than updates). FC> It's $799 per year with some support. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 16 16:32:47 2003 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter L. Peres) Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 18:32:47 +0200 (IST) Subject: GUI In-Reply-To: <20031115205520.GC5077-9xiANKxwco42bRTacqR3/JR8nzhMnQZF/mqnPsBvoffFpvyHdVPjngC/G2K4zDHf@public.gmane.org> References: <3.0.3.32.20031115141250.00fbe930@mail.look.ca> <20031115012844.GA1291@node1.opengeometry.net> <3.0.3.32.20031113155921.00f916ec@mail.look.ca> <3.0.3.32.20031115141250.00fbe930@mail.look.ca> <3.0.3.32.20031115152419.006cac8c@mail.look.ca> <20031115205520.GC5077@hatefulsheep.ym.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 15 Nov 2003, Taavi Burns wrote: > X will pick the next unused one (i.e. c7, i.e. CTRL-ALT-F7) in > my case. And yes, this means that you can run X more than once > at the same time, and switch between different X sessions. :) Moreover you can run several X servers on the same machine, such that some appear as windows inside others. Very useful for testing "network" applications and crashy applications. Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 16 19:45:15 2003 From: john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (John Moniz) Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 14:45:15 -0500 Subject: Missing device In-Reply-To: <3FB7B591.1010702-F0u+EriZ6ihBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <3FA1B699.9000207@sympatico.ca> <3FA1D118.5050402@truxtar.com> <3FB6B721.3000209@sympatico.ca> <3FB7B591.1010702@truxtar.com> Message-ID: <3FB7D3CB.3030302@sympatico.ca> Thanks Anton; I tried "apt-get install kino" again (had already tried it), but it can't find package kino. What repositories do you have? I only managed to find http://ayo.freshrpms.net and ftp://apt-rpm.tuxfamily.org for my sources.list (I just noticed I don't use rpm-src though). I would rather install with apt-get if I can. John. Anton Markov wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > Hi John, > > Try installing kino with apt-get: > > apt-get install kino > > And for some extra effects and filters do: > > apt-get install kinoplus > > That's how I installed Kino on my computer. To compile it I think you > need gnome-libs-devel or something. Try it with apt-get first though. > > I am replying to the whole list so someone else could maybe help you > with the compiling issue (if you still want to compile). > > Hope this helps > > > > Anton > > > John Moniz wrote: > | Hi Anton; > | > | I have been grabing dv with dvgrab, but was not able to compile kino > - I > | got the following errors when doing "./configure": > | checking whether to enable maintainer-specific portions of > Makefiles... no > | checking for gnome-config... no > | checking for gnomeConf.sh file in /usr/local/lib... not found > | configure: error: Could not find the gnomeConf.sh file that is > generated > | by gnome-libs install > | > | But at least I can work with dvgrab for now. Have you transferred dv > | from the PC to the camcorder? I have a Sony TRV 740. > | > | Thanks, > | > | John. > | > | > | Anton Markov wrote: > | > |> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > |> Hash: SHA1 > |> > |> Hi John, > |> > |> What kernel version and which distribution are you running? You > need a > |> 2.4 series kernel (you could patch a 2.2 kernel, but I think it's best > |> to just upgrade). > |> > |> Try: > |> mknod /dev/raw1394 c 171 0 > |> modprobe raw1394 > |> > |> This did the job for my Via OHCI adapter and Sony TRV140 DV camcorder. > |> > |> If you need more help, check out the info at > |> > |> > |> I would also suggest you use a higher-level program such as Kino > |> > |> > |> Enjoy :) > |> > |> John Moniz wrote: > |> | I am trying to capture some video from a dig video camera connected > |> to a > |> | firewire card. When I run the dvgrab command, I get the following > |> error: > |> | > |> | raw1394 - couldn't get handle: No such device > |> | This error usually means that the ieee1394 driver is not loaded > or that > |> | /dev/raw1394 does not exist. > |> | > |> | I have these modules loaded: > |> | ohci1394 18600 0 (unused) > |> | ieee1394 45388 0 [ohci1394] > |> | > |> | But I have no /dev/raw1394 device listed. How do I make/get such a > |> | device? I couldn't find an "mk..." type command that might do it. > |> | > |> | Thanks, > |> | > |> | John. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 16 19:55:54 2003 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 14:55:54 -0500 Subject: R: Red Hat Enterprise Linux ES In-Reply-To: <494383813.20031116132550-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <3.0.3.32.20031113155921.00f916ec@mail.look.ca> <3FB62107.1284.C33D49@localhost> <1492947808.20031115134708@istop.com> <200311152030.06224.fraser@wehave.net> <494383813.20031116132550@istop.com> Message-ID: <3FB7D64A.4060300@rogers.com> login-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org wrote: > This is very discouraging from Red Hat by removing the non-enterprise > OS from their shelf and forcing to buy Enterprise version at least for > average home users. I think the idea is that home users go with Fedora. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From anton-F0u+EriZ6ihBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 16 20:03:00 2003 From: anton-F0u+EriZ6ihBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Anton Markov) Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 15:03:00 -0500 Subject: Missing device In-Reply-To: <3FB7D3CB.3030302-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FA1B699.9000207@sympatico.ca> <3FA1D118.5050402@truxtar.com> <3FB6B721.3000209@sympatico.ca> <3FB7B591.1010702@truxtar.com> <3FB7D3CB.3030302@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <3FB7D7F4.5090901@truxtar.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 I forgot to mention that I had to add custom repositories to the list. Sorry about that John. Here is the entry you need to add to /etc/apt/sources.list # Kino and other movie software rpm http://kino.schirmacher.de redhat/8.0/en/i386 kinorpms rpm-src http://kino.schirmacher.de redhat/8.0/en/i386 kinorpms John Moniz wrote: | Thanks Anton; | | I tried "apt-get install kino" again (had already tried it), but it | can't find package kino. What repositories do you have? I only managed | to find http://ayo.freshrpms.net and ftp://apt-rpm.tuxfamily.org for my | sources.list (I just noticed I don't use rpm-src though). I would rather | install with apt-get if I can. | | John. - -- Anton Markov <("anton" + "@" + "truxtar" + "." + "com")> GnuPGP Key fingerprint = 5546 A6E2 1FFB 9BB8 15C3 CE34 46B7 8D93 3AD1 44B4 ~ "The difference between insanity and genius is measured only by success." ~ - Some bad guy from 007 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQE/t9f0RreNkzrRRLQRAuQZAKCTFdc8+1T7DrVbfaImAYOXHSQ6BQCcDMNW kfbvKURBZsNXo3n6BeqePi4= =A6yF -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 16 20:37:36 2003 From: cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org (cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org) Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 15:37:36 -0500 Subject: R: Red Hat Enterprise Linux ES In-Reply-To: Message from login@istop.com of "Sun, 16 Nov 2003 13:25:50 EST." <494383813.20031116132550-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <3.0.3.32.20031113155921.00f916ec@mail.look.ca> <3FB62107.1284.C33D49@localhost> <1492947808.20031115134708@istop.com> <200311152030.06224.fraser@wehave.net> <494383813.20031116132550@istop.com> Message-ID: <20031116203737.52C203FE9@cbbrowne.com> > This is very discouraging from Red Hat by removing the non-enterprise > OS from their shelf and forcing to buy Enterprise version at least for > average home users. If you're not prepared to contribute $350/year to their bottom line, they're not particularly interested in you as a customer, and that's a legitimate choice. That you think it wrong does not make it a bad choice from _their_ perspective. Don't compare it with Sun's behaviour; remember that Sun is first and foremost a vendor of *computer systems*. There is a good argument to be made that Solaris on x86 was an abberation and a mistake on their part. I don't think they ever made any money off of it, and I seriously doubt that cutting the price would have helped. The big _advantage_ of taking the product off the shelf is about threefold: 1. Patches become easier to deploy. You _can't_ patch a "boxed set" that has already been shipped to computer stores. 2. RHAT gets to keep _all_ the money, not just the maybe 20% that they would get on a boxed set. 3. RHAT doesn't have to pay to push inventory out to CompUSA stores; doesn't have to pay 'advertising fees' to get shelf space; doesn't have to carry the costs of creating inventory that has to be pushed out. If 90% of their sales go away, numerically, but: a) The 10% is $350/yr subscriptions rather than $80 boxed sets, b) They eliminate huge portions of overheads associated with long supply chains, and c) They get to keep _all_ of the money rather than just 20% of it, they are likely to be a LOT more profitable than they were pushing boxes onto computer store shelves. None of this addresses "desktop" users. But having "boxed sets" at computer stores didn't address that either. If a computer vendor finds it worthwhile to deploy Linux on desktops, they likely won't be using RH ES, but rather something like Mandrake or perhaps Progeny's tools may get thrown atop Debian to make it a little more 'desktop friendly.' -- If this was helpful, rate me http://www.ntlug.org/~cbbrowne/nonrdbms.html "Markets can remain irrational longer than you can remain solvent." -- J. M. Keynes -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 16 20:55:31 2003 From: john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (John Moniz) Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 15:55:31 -0500 Subject: Linux Scanners Message-ID: <3FB7E443.1040509@sympatico.ca> This subject comes up once in a while, but since developments happen quickly, I'd like to ask again. I'm intending on treating myself to a scanner soon, but one that is good for photo/film/slide scanning. I'd like to pick a brand that is very Linux friendly, not just a model that is on the USB list. Which company would be good to support? Is Epson as good with scanners as it is with printers? I had a look at an Epson Perfection 1670 Photo scanner that might fit my requirements, although it looks almost too inexpensive. Is Canon still a PITA? Any scanner suggestions would be welcome? Thanks, John. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From taavi-LbuTpDkqzNzXI80/IeQp7B2eb7JE58TQ at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 16 20:59:43 2003 From: taavi-LbuTpDkqzNzXI80/IeQp7B2eb7JE58TQ at public.gmane.org (Taavi Burns) Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 15:59:43 -0500 Subject: Linux Scanners In-Reply-To: <3FB7E443.1040509-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FB7E443.1040509@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <20031116205943.GI5077@hatefulsheep.ym.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> On Sun, Nov 16, 2003 at 03:55:31PM -0500, John Moniz wrote: > I'm intending on treating myself to a scanner soon, but one that is good > for photo/film/slide scanning. I'd like to pick a brand that is very > Linux friendly, not just a model that is on the USB list. Which company > would be good to support? Is Epson as good with scanners as it is with > printers? AFAIK there is one single Epson scanner that does NOT work with Linux. All of their other ones work, with all the features. As long as you avoid that model (old, so you'd only find it second hand), Epson is probably the safest bet. My family bought a 1250U a couple of years ago, and it worked like a hot damn. > I had a look at an Epson Perfection 1670 Photo scanner that > might fit my requirements, although it looks almost too inexpensive. Is Certainly double check with the scanner list, but Epson scanners have--since day one--spoken a single unified language (over parallel, scsi, usb). It's really the way things ought to be. (the one that doesn't work is not really an epson printer, but a rebranded some-other-crappy-scanner) -- taa /*eof*/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From marvinin-NOBIIgrgD1YV+D8aMU/kSg at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 16 21:00:16 2003 From: marvinin-NOBIIgrgD1YV+D8aMU/kSg at public.gmane.org (Mark Vining) Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 16:00:16 -0500 Subject: Basic DSL Message-ID: <3FB7E560.3030000@enoreo.on.ca> I am new to Linux and am trying to get my Sympatico DSL Basic Service working. I would like to completly rid myself of any connection to Microsoft. I have 2 D-Link DE-528s. Linux recogognizes both of these I think. During install it asked me about them. One of them is connected to an Efficeint Networks Speedstream 5200 which is connected to my phone line. It shows up in windows as "Efficeint Networks Ethernet P.P.P.o.E. Adaptor" I honestly have no idea how to start. Can someone help me? Thanx muchly. Mark Vining Mississauga -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 16 21:05:01 2003 From: fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Fraser Campbell) Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 16:05:01 -0500 Subject: R: Red Hat Enterprise Linux ES In-Reply-To: <494383813.20031116132550-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <3.0.3.32.20031113155921.00f916ec@mail.look.ca> <200311152030.06224.fraser@wehave.net> <494383813.20031116132550@istop.com> Message-ID: <200311161605.02358.fraser@wehave.net> On November 16, 2003 01:25 pm, login-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org wrote: > Next how does this work: > > "Red Hat's Enterprise Linux family of operating systems is available on a > per-system, annual subscription basis." > > After the one year of subscription expired, the OS will be out-dated, > right? See the first question of their Enterprise FAQ: Additionally, Red Hat Enterprise Linux products are all supplied with a year of support, and customers can continue to obtain support for 5 years. I believe that after a year you'll pay another 349 or 799 USD depending on the support level you want. If you pay then you will continue to receive access to redhat security and other updates for the ES version that you bought. If you don't pay then you won't get updates and you'll be entirely on your own for security updates, application support, etc. Eventually (apparently in about 5 years) support for RHES 3.0 will be discontinued and your choices will be to upgrade to a newer version of ES or to support the installation yourself ... and naturally you'll continue paying Redhat yearly. > This is very discouraging from Red Hat by removing the non-enterprise > OS from their shelf and forcing to buy Enterprise version at least for > average home users. IMO, it's also discouraging for Linux support companies and independent contractors working with Linux. The only reason to "subscribe " is to get Redhat's support, Redhat is (rightfully I think) betting the farm on support. It would be nice if Redhat left a little more room for others to play ... forking out a minimum of 350 USD for ES can bump up the cost a of an installation a fair amount for independents. At the very least they should offer a non-business use or educational version ... hell even Sun does that with Solaris (20 USD to download). I'm still rather happy that I chose to go with Debian over 5 years ago, still see no reason to switch ;-) -- Fraser Campbell http://www.wehave.net/ Georgetown, Ontario, Canada Debian GNU/Linux -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 16 21:13:03 2003 From: fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Fraser Campbell) Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 16:13:03 -0500 Subject: Basic DSL In-Reply-To: <3FB7E560.3030000-NOBIIgrgD1YV+D8aMU/kSg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FB7E560.3030000@enoreo.on.ca> Message-ID: <200311161613.03650.fraser@wehave.net> On November 16, 2003 04:00 pm, Mark Vining wrote: > One of them is connected to an Efficeint Networks Speedstream 5200 which > is connected to my phone line. > > It shows up in windows as "Efficeint Networks Ethernet P.P.P.o.E. Adaptor" > > I honestly have no idea how to start. Tell us which Linux distribution distribution you're using and someone will be able to help. In Debian you would run pppoeconfig and walk through a few simple questions, I'm sure other distros have similar I just don't know what they might be. -- Fraser Campbell http://www.wehave.net/ Georgetown, Ontario, Canada Debian GNU/Linux -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 16 21:14:27 2003 From: john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (John Moniz) Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 16:14:27 -0500 Subject: Missing device In-Reply-To: <3FB7D7F4.5090901-F0u+EriZ6ihBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <3FA1B699.9000207@sympatico.ca> <3FA1D118.5050402@truxtar.com> <3FB6B721.3000209@sympatico.ca> <3FB7B591.1010702@truxtar.com> <3FB7D3CB.3030302@sympatico.ca> <3FB7D7F4.5090901@truxtar.com> Message-ID: <3FB7E8B3.5020501@sympatico.ca> Fantastic Anton, I have kino installed. This is the way Linux out to be. I'm still getting an error that libquicktime.so.0 isn't there, but I should be able to find it (I hope). By the way, have you done any video transfer in the other direction (PC to camera)? I am trying dvbackup/dvconnect, but it can't open device video1394 ("no such device"), even though it's there. John. Anton Markov wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > I forgot to mention that I had to add custom repositories to the list. > Sorry about that John. Here is the entry you need to add to > /etc/apt/sources.list > > > # Kino and other movie software > rpm http://kino.schirmacher.de redhat/8.0/en/i386 kinorpms > rpm-src http://kino.schirmacher.de redhat/8.0/en/i386 kinorpms > > > > John Moniz wrote: > | Thanks Anton; > | > | I tried "apt-get install kino" again (had already tried it), but it > | can't find package kino. What repositories do you have? I only managed > | to find http://ayo.freshrpms.net and ftp://apt-rpm.tuxfamily.org for my > | sources.list (I just noticed I don't use rpm-src though). I would > rather > | install with apt-get if I can. > | > | John. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From marvinin-NOBIIgrgD1YV+D8aMU/kSg at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 16 21:23:23 2003 From: marvinin-NOBIIgrgD1YV+D8aMU/kSg at public.gmane.org (Mark Vining) Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 16:23:23 -0500 Subject: Basic DSL In-Reply-To: <200311161613.03650.fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FB7E560.3030000@enoreo.on.ca> <200311161613.03650.fraser@wehave.net> Message-ID: <3FB7EACB.70809@enoreo.on.ca> I am running Debian. Fraser Campbell wrote: >On November 16, 2003 04:00 pm, Mark Vining wrote: > > > >>One of them is connected to an Efficeint Networks Speedstream 5200 which >>is connected to my phone line. >> >>It shows up in windows as "Efficeint Networks Ethernet P.P.P.o.E. Adaptor" >> >>I honestly have no idea how to start. >> >> > >Tell us which Linux distribution distribution you're using and someone will be >able to help. > >In Debian you would run pppoeconfig and walk through a few simple questions, >I'm sure other distros have similar I just don't know what they might be. > > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From anton-F0u+EriZ6ihBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 16 21:29:25 2003 From: anton-F0u+EriZ6ihBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Anton Markov) Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 16:29:25 -0500 Subject: Missing device In-Reply-To: <3FB7E8B3.5020501-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FA1B699.9000207@sympatico.ca> <3FA1D118.5050402@truxtar.com> <3FB6B721.3000209@sympatico.ca> <3FB7B591.1010702@truxtar.com> <3FB7D3CB.3030302@sympatico.ca> <3FB7D7F4.5090901@truxtar.com> <3FB7E8B3.5020501@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <3FB7EC35.40007@truxtar.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Hi John, John Moniz wrote: | Fantastic Anton, I have kino installed. This is the way Linux out to be. Very, very, very true! :) | I'm still getting an error that libquicktime.so.0 isn't there, but I | should be able to find it (I hope). I haven't been able to solve that myself either. Can't help here. | By the way, have you done any video transfer in the other direction (PC | to camera)? I am trying dvbackup/dvconnect, but it can't open device | video1394 ("no such device"), even though it's there. I have gotten it to transfer the video back to the camcorder using the Export feature in Kino, but I have never heard of dvbackup or dvconnect; what are they? Try using the dv1394 output device; that's what I configured Kino to use. Make sure the dv1394 model is loaded. - -- Anton Markov <("anton" + "@" + "truxtar" + "." + "com")> GnuPGP Key fingerprint = 5546 A6E2 1FFB 9BB8 15C3 CE34 46B7 8D93 3AD1 44B4 ~ "The difference between insanity and genius is measured only by success." ~ - Some bad guy from 007 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQE/t+w1RreNkzrRRLQRAtHCAJ96yp8qEDN+cHxHifJ6lysWMJX3IQCdGSEh XGIr1MKSI00vQO02MrbpFy0= =3nEm -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From mr.mcgregor-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 16 21:30:22 2003 From: mr.mcgregor-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (John McGregor) Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 16:30:22 -0500 Subject: scanners Message-ID: <3FB7EC6E.9060602@sympatico.ca> At the consumer level, the plain and simple is that Epson scanners just plain work with Linux and the others are a crap shoot. John -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 16 21:38:19 2003 From: fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Fraser Campbell) Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 16:38:19 -0500 Subject: Basic DSL In-Reply-To: <3FB7EACB.70809-NOBIIgrgD1YV+D8aMU/kSg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FB7E560.3030000@enoreo.on.ca> <200311161613.03650.fraser@wehave.net> <3FB7EACB.70809@enoreo.on.ca> Message-ID: <200311161638.19244.fraser@wehave.net> On November 16, 2003 04:23 pm, Mark Vining wrote: > I am running Debian. Did you try running pppoeconfig as root, if not try it? -- Fraser Campbell http://www.wehave.net/ Georgetown, Ontario, Canada Debian GNU/Linux -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 16 21:44:37 2003 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 16:44:37 -0500 Subject: scanners In-Reply-To: <3FB7EC6E.9060602-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FB7EC6E.9060602@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <3FB7EFC5.90806@rogers.com> John McGregor wrote: > At the consumer level, the plain and simple is that Epson scanners just > plain work with Linux and the others are a crap shoot. The problem with Epson, is that they seem to be scarce, at least at the major retailers. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From mr.mcgregor-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 16 21:55:39 2003 From: mr.mcgregor-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (John McGregor) Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 16:55:39 -0500 Subject: scanners In-Reply-To: <3FB7EFC5.90806-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <3FB7EC6E.9060602@sympatico.ca> <3FB7EFC5.90806@rogers.com> Message-ID: <3FB7F25B.7060705@sympatico.ca> James Knott wrote: > John McGregor wrote: > >> At the consumer level, the plain and simple is that Epson scanners >> just plain work with Linux and the others are a crap shoot. > > > The problem with Epson, is that they seem to be scarce, at least at > the major retailers. > > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > Vistek carries the whole Epson line. http://www.vistek.ca/digital/scanners.asp -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From marvinin-NOBIIgrgD1YV+D8aMU/kSg at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 16 21:58:22 2003 From: marvinin-NOBIIgrgD1YV+D8aMU/kSg at public.gmane.org (Mark Vining) Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 16:58:22 -0500 Subject: Basic DSL In-Reply-To: <200311161638.19244.fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FB7E560.3030000@enoreo.on.ca> <200311161613.03650.fraser@wehave.net> <3FB7EACB.70809@enoreo.on.ca> <200311161638.19244.fraser@wehave.net> Message-ID: <3FB7F2FE.9040003@enoreo.on.ca> I tried that and it did not find the ppoeconfig file. I ran dselect and discovered that it was already installed so that wasn't it. What is the location of pppoeconfig? I tried searching in kde and I could not find it. Thanx for the help so far. Mark Fraser Campbell wrote: >On November 16, 2003 04:23 pm, Mark Vining wrote: > > > >>I am running Debian. >> >> > >Did you try running pppoeconfig as root, if not try it? > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 16 22:11:53 2003 From: fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Fraser Campbell) Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 17:11:53 -0500 Subject: Basic DSL In-Reply-To: <3FB7F2FE.9040003-NOBIIgrgD1YV+D8aMU/kSg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FB7E560.3030000@enoreo.on.ca> <200311161638.19244.fraser@wehave.net> <3FB7F2FE.9040003@enoreo.on.ca> Message-ID: <200311161711.53142.fraser@wehave.net> On November 16, 2003 04:58 pm, Mark Vining wrote: > I tried that and it did not find the ppoeconfig file. I ran dselect and > discovered that it was already installed so that wasn't it. > > What is the location of pppoeconfig? Sorry I should have looked at a little more closely. I've never used it since I have a separate firewall running LEAF. The package name is pppoeconfig, the command that you run is pppoeconf ... -- Fraser Campbell http://www.wehave.net/ Georgetown, Ontario, Canada Debian GNU/Linux -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 16 22:16:25 2003 From: john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (John Moniz) Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 17:16:25 -0500 Subject: Missing device In-Reply-To: <3FB7EC35.40007-F0u+EriZ6ihBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <3FA1B699.9000207@sympatico.ca> <3FA1D118.5050402@truxtar.com> <3FB6B721.3000209@sympatico.ca> <3FB7B591.1010702@truxtar.com> <3FB7D3CB.3030302@sympatico.ca> <3FB7D7F4.5090901@truxtar.com> <3FB7E8B3.5020501@sympatico.ca> <3FB7EC35.40007@truxtar.com> Message-ID: <3FB7F739.5040307@sympatico.ca> Anton Markov wrote: > I have gotten it to transfer the video back to the camcorder using the > Export feature in Kino, but I have never heard of dvbackup or dvconnect; > what are they? Try using the dv1394 output device; that's what I > configured Kino to use. Make sure the dv1394 model is loaded. dvbackup is a command line utility to transfer any data, including dv, to a camera via the ieee1394 port. You can actually backup (and later restore) your hard drive to your camera (about 12GB's worth). Since it's all command line, there's no worries about the speed of the cpu. Ultimately, I want to store my analog videos back to the same camera as dv. I think dvconnect works with dvbackup, but I don't know exactly what it does, except that the name would suggest it does the connecting. John. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 16 22:19:08 2003 From: john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (John Moniz) Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 17:19:08 -0500 Subject: scanners In-Reply-To: <3FB7EFC5.90806-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <3FB7EC6E.9060602@sympatico.ca> <3FB7EFC5.90806@rogers.com> Message-ID: <3FB7F7DC.1080906@sympatico.ca> James Knott wrote: > John McGregor wrote: > >> At the consumer level, the plain and simple is that Epson scanners >> just plain work with Linux and the others are a crap shoot. > > > The problem with Epson, is that they seem to be scarce, at least at > the major retailers. I think there was only one model available, but I did see one at Staples (Epson Perfection 1670 Photo). -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 16 22:26:27 2003 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 17:26:27 -0500 Subject: scanners In-Reply-To: <3FB7F7DC.1080906-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FB7EC6E.9060602@sympatico.ca> <3FB7EFC5.90806@rogers.com> <3FB7F7DC.1080906@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <3FB7F993.3070600@rogers.com> John Moniz wrote: > James Knott wrote: > >> John McGregor wrote: >> >>> At the consumer level, the plain and simple is that Epson scanners >>> just plain work with Linux and the others are a crap shoot. >> >> >> >> The problem with Epson, is that they seem to be scarce, at least at >> the major retailers. > > > I think there was only one model available, but I did see one at Staples > (Epson Perfection 1670 Photo). That's a small scanner for photographs and slides. It won't handle full size sheets. John McGregor mentioned Vistek, but they're downtown and a little out of my way. It would be nice if Staples or Future shop carried the full size Epson scanners. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 16 22:54:03 2003 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter L. Peres) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 00:54:03 +0200 (IST) Subject: Missing device In-Reply-To: <3FB7F739.5040307-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FA1B699.9000207@sympatico.ca> <3FA1D118.5050402@truxtar.com> <3FB6B721.3000209@sympatico.ca> <3FB7B591.1010702@truxtar.com> <3FB7D3CB.3030302@sympatico.ca> <3FB7D7F4.5090901@truxtar.com> <3FB7E8B3.5020501@sympatico.ca> <3FB7EC35.40007@truxtar.com> <3FB7F739.5040307@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: > dv. I think dvconnect works with dvbackup, but I don't know exactly what > it does, except that the name would suggest it does the connecting. dvconnect should be the program that allows the IEEE1394 connection to be used for networking (with another computer). Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 16 23:46:20 2003 From: john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (John Moniz) Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 18:46:20 -0500 Subject: scanners In-Reply-To: <3FB7F993.3070600-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <3FB7EC6E.9060602@sympatico.ca> <3FB7EFC5.90806@rogers.com> <3FB7F7DC.1080906@sympatico.ca> <3FB7F993.3070600@rogers.com> Message-ID: <3FB80C4C.9020104@sympatico.ca> James Knott wrote: > John Moniz wrote: > >> James Knott wrote: >> >>> John McGregor wrote: >>> >>>> At the consumer level, the plain and simple is that Epson scanners >>>> just plain work with Linux and the others are a crap shoot. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> The problem with Epson, is that they seem to be scarce, at least at >>> the major retailers. >> >> >> >> I think there was only one model available, but I did see one at >> Staples (Epson Perfection 1670 Photo). > > > That's a small scanner for photographs and slides. It won't handle > full size sheets. > > John McGregor mentioned Vistek, but they're downtown and a little out > of my way. It would be nice if Staples or Future shop carried the > full size Epson scanners. > That Epson is a full size scanner, I saw it. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jzygmont-tEQKYFGiemxAYG7eUwYNkWD2FQJk+8+b at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 17 00:16:03 2003 From: jzygmont-tEQKYFGiemxAYG7eUwYNkWD2FQJk+8+b at public.gmane.org (Justin Zygmont) Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 19:16:03 -0500 (EST) Subject: R: Red Hat Enterprise Linux ES In-Reply-To: <494383813.20031116132550-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <494383813.20031116132550@istop.com> Message-ID: right now it's either pay for redhat linux as most home users already like doing with windows XP, or go with fedora. There's other distros too I guess, I'm interested to see what Novell is going to come up with. Any speculations? :) I was one of the first ones to try out NDS on linux (eDirectory) I think it was made more for someone that already knew why they needed it and how to use it, but it was easy enough to install and manage and came with PDF docs. Seeing ConsoleOne running on linux was a nice sign of things to come. On Sun, 16 Nov 2003 login-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org wrote: > > Thanks all, I learned that Amazon.ca do carry Red Hat Enterprise Linux > Es 2.1 (CAD $ 1100+). I am looking for Red Hat Enterprise Linux ES > which can only be purchased directly from RH and I am going to buy > from Red Hat. > > Next how does this work: > > "Red Hat's Enterprise Linux family of operating systems is available on a > per-system, annual subscription basis." > > After the one year of subscription expired, the OS will be out-dated, > right? > > By dropping the Red Hat v9 (https://www.redhat.com/software/rhelorfedora/), > Red Hat want to work with Enterprise level only. What will happen to home > end users? The choice Red Hat is giving to go with Enterprise Linux family else > forget it. This was same sort of Sun's behavior in term of pricing for their > Intel version so that on average user can not afford to buy it (OS). > When Sun removed this constrain and went on ease on licensing, many people learned > Solaris on their Intel box. Eventually, Sun gets more qualified admins > by doing so. > > This is very discouraging from Red Hat by removing the non-enterprise > OS from their shelf and forcing to buy Enterprise version at least for > average home users. > > S. Mohammad [ login-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org] > Who Do You Want to Buy Today? > > > Saturday, November 15, 2003, 8:30:05 PM, you wrote: > > FC> On November 15, 2003 01:47 pm, login-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org wrote: > > >> Where I can buy Red Hat Enterprise Linux ES around Toronto / Mississauga? > >> Should I hit Red Hat company direct for such purchase? Thanks! > > FC> You can only buy redhat from redhat. See > FC> http://www.redhat.com/software/rhel/purchase/ ... > > FC> Red Hat's Enterprise Linux family of operating systems is available on a > FC> per-system, annual subscription basis. The subscriptions are offered in > FC> three editions: Basic, Standard, and Premium -- each with varying support > FC> levels and delivery options -- so you can choose the subscription > FC> combination that best meets the needs of your business. > > FC> If you want to go on the cheap then Redhat Enterprise Server will cost you > FC> $349 every year and you'll get no support from redhat (other than updates). > FC> It's $799 per year with some support. > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From tenger-ew0EfhANLmVEfu+5ix1nRw at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 17 02:16:30 2003 From: tenger-ew0EfhANLmVEfu+5ix1nRw at public.gmane.org (Terrence Enger) Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 21:16:30 -0500 Subject: GUI In-Reply-To: <3796.216.138.194.32.1068929081.squirrel-16UnNR4aCrhlws70yGkXPA@public.gmane.org> References: <3.0.3.32.20031115152419.006cac8c@mail.look.ca> <3.0.3.32.20031115141250.00fbe930@mail.look.ca> <20031115012844.GA1291@node1.opengeometry.net> <3.0.3.32.20031113155921.00f916ec@mail.look.ca> <3.0.3.32.20031115141250.00fbe930@mail.look.ca> <3.0.3.32.20031115152419.006cac8c@mail.look.ca> <3796.216.138.194.32.1068929081.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20031116211630.00f95884@mail.look.ca> At 15:44 2003-11-15 -0500, Keith Mastin wrote: > > > That brings up another thought, though. Since my first > > question on Thursday, I read something somewhere suggesting > > that I can run a GUI and still have access to the text > > consoles via F1, F2, et cetera. I do not seem to be able to > > do this using Slackware 9.0, XFree86 4.3.0 and KDE 3.1. Now > > that I know I get the GUI running, I wish I had paid more > > attention to the fine points. Any suggestions? > > Try Ctrl/Alt/F2 for the first text console. The same combo through F6 > should give you more consoles, with Ctrl/Alt/F7 bringing you back to your > X gui session, and F1 running X Thank you, Kieth. I forgot the Ctrl modifier. Duh. Terry. > > -- > Keith > -- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From kmastin-PzQIwG9Jn9VAFePFGvp55w at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 17 02:33:07 2003 From: kmastin-PzQIwG9Jn9VAFePFGvp55w at public.gmane.org (Keith Mastin) Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 21:33:07 -0500 (EST) Subject: Basic DSL In-Reply-To: <3FB7E560.3030000-NOBIIgrgD1YV+D8aMU/kSg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FB7E560.3030000@enoreo.on.ca> Message-ID: <4944.216.138.194.32.1069036387.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> > I am new to Linux and am trying to get my Sympatico DSL Basic Service > working. > > I would like to completly rid myself of any connection to Microsoft. > > I have 2 D-Link DE-528s. > > Linux recogognizes both of these I think. During install it asked me > about them. > > One of them is connected to an Efficeint Networks Speedstream 5200 which > is connected to my phone line. > > It shows up in windows as "Efficeint Networks Ethernet P.P.P.o.E. > Adaptor" > > I honestly have no idea how to start. > > Can someone help me? For starters, search for your basic problem in google. adsl linux would be a good place to start. You can also do searches for howto's, which seem to be a *nix thing, so you're bound to have some luck there. adsl linux howto. There is a program that's easy to setup and use called the roaring penguin adsl client, found at roaringpenguin.com. Download, install and run adsl-setup then fill in the blanks. The start and stop commands are adsl-start and adsl-stop. There may be a gui for configuring it, but I'm unaware of them. Out of curiosity, what distro did you pick for your first linux install? -- Keith -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 17 03:10:49 2003 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 22:10:49 -0500 Subject: R: Red Hat Enterprise Linux ES In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3FB83C39.3050909@rogers.com> I've been thinking about leaving Red Hat for a while now. I'm currently running RH 7.3 and don't care for the changes in RH 8 & 9. Currenly SuSE looks interesting. I downloaded the eval CD for v9 and it appears to run better on my notebook, than RH 7.3 Justin Zygmont wrote: > right now it's either pay for redhat linux as most home users already like > doing with windows XP, or go with fedora. There's other distros too I > guess, I'm interested to see what Novell is going to come up with. Any > speculations? :) I was one of the first ones to try out NDS on linux > (eDirectory) I think it was made more for someone that already knew why > they needed it and how to use it, but it was easy enough to install > and manage and came with PDF docs. Seeing ConsoleOne running on linux > was a nice sign of things to come. > > > > On Sun, 16 Nov 2003 login-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org wrote: > > >>Thanks all, I learned that Amazon.ca do carry Red Hat Enterprise Linux >>Es 2.1 (CAD $ 1100+). I am looking for Red Hat Enterprise Linux ES >>which can only be purchased directly from RH and I am going to buy >>from Red Hat. >> >>Next how does this work: >> >>"Red Hat's Enterprise Linux family of operating systems is available on a >>per-system, annual subscription basis." >> >>After the one year of subscription expired, the OS will be out-dated, >>right? >> >>By dropping the Red Hat v9 (https://www.redhat.com/software/rhelorfedora/), >>Red Hat want to work with Enterprise level only. What will happen to home >>end users? The choice Red Hat is giving to go with Enterprise Linux family else >>forget it. This was same sort of Sun's behavior in term of pricing for their >>Intel version so that on average user can not afford to buy it (OS). >>When Sun removed this constrain and went on ease on licensing, many people learned >>Solaris on their Intel box. Eventually, Sun gets more qualified admins >>by doing so. >> >>This is very discouraging from Red Hat by removing the non-enterprise >>OS from their shelf and forcing to buy Enterprise version at least for >>average home users. >> >>S. Mohammad [ login-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org] >>Who Do You Want to Buy Today? >> >> >>Saturday, November 15, 2003, 8:30:05 PM, you wrote: >> >>FC> On November 15, 2003 01:47 pm, login-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org wrote: >> >> >>>>Where I can buy Red Hat Enterprise Linux ES around Toronto / Mississauga? >>>>Should I hit Red Hat company direct for such purchase? Thanks! >> >>FC> You can only buy redhat from redhat. See >>FC> http://www.redhat.com/software/rhel/purchase/ ... >> >>FC> Red Hat's Enterprise Linux family of operating systems is available on a >>FC> per-system, annual subscription basis. The subscriptions are offered in >>FC> three editions: Basic, Standard, and Premium -- each with varying support >>FC> levels and delivery options -- so you can choose the subscription >>FC> combination that best meets the needs of your business. >> >>FC> If you want to go on the cheap then Redhat Enterprise Server will cost you >>FC> $349 every year and you'll get no support from redhat (other than updates). >>FC> It's $799 per year with some support. >> >>-- >>The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org >>TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >>How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml >> > > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From kmastin-PzQIwG9Jn9VAFePFGvp55w at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 17 02:56:13 2003 From: kmastin-PzQIwG9Jn9VAFePFGvp55w at public.gmane.org (Keith Mastin) Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 21:56:13 -0500 (EST) Subject: R: Red Hat Enterprise Linux ES In-Reply-To: <494383813.20031116132550-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <3.0.3.32.20031113155921.00f916ec@mail.look.ca><3FB62107.1284.C33D49@localhost> <1492947808.20031115134708@istop.com><200311152030.06224.fraser@wehave.net> <494383813.20031116132550@istop.com> Message-ID: <4975.216.138.194.32.1069037773.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> > Thanks all, I learned that Amazon.ca do carry Red Hat Enterprise Linux > Es 2.1 (CAD $ 1100+). I am looking for Red Hat Enterprise Linux ES > which can only be purchased directly from RH and I am going to buy > from Red Hat. > > Next how does this work: > > "Red Hat's Enterprise Linux family of operating systems is available on a > per-system, annual subscription basis." > > After the one year of subscription expired, the OS will be out-dated, > right? No. You just won't be able to get any support or updated rpms for it. Expect the RH rpms to deviate from the standards we've seen in the future for marketing purposes (speculation). You can keep the same OS with support for up to 5 years if you want to dole out the $$ for it. Personally, I don't see any advantage that Redhat might have over Debian or FreeBSD, especially in the area of software management, which this will ultimately turn out to be all about. > By dropping the Red Hat v9 > qualified admins by doing so. > > This is very discouraging from Red Hat by removing the non-enterprise > OS from their shelf and forcing to buy Enterprise version at least for > average home users. ...to use redhat. When all this licensing bs started there was no mention of fedora, and my guess it was put out to keep the support of the OSS community. Anything else might be as fatally stupid for Redhat as the SCO fiasco will be for those guys. If the price of using redhat doesn't scare you, might I suggest that you use Debian (or any other freely available OSS distro) and donate the money that you would have spent on Redhat to an OSS outfit that can put it to better use? -- Keith -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jkls-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 17 04:11:48 2003 From: jkls-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (jkls) Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 23:11:48 -0500 Subject: bmtp file permissions? In-Reply-To: <3FB6C473.3000202-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FB6C473.3000202@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <3FB84A84.4000009@sympatico.ca> Well so far it's working without matching the permissions and ownership to those of utmp. jkls wrote: > I would like to be able to use the lastb command. > I have created btmp with "touch /var/log/btmp" but I suppose I should > change it > to have the same permissions and group ownership as /var/log/utmp? > Also, is there anything else I should do to get this working? > > Thanks. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From skuznets-WRMZ5ucGVl4BXFe83j6qeQ at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 17 04:28:17 2003 From: skuznets-WRMZ5ucGVl4BXFe83j6qeQ at public.gmane.org (Serge Kuznetsov) Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 23:28:17 -0500 Subject: R: Red Hat Enterprise Linux ES References: <3FB83C39.3050909@rogers.com> Message-ID: <004101c3acc3$61377350$34c096cd@toybox> > I've been thinking about leaving Red Hat for a while now. I'm currently > running RH 7.3 and don't care for the changes in RH 8 & 9. Currenly > SuSE looks interesting. I downloaded the eval CD for v9 and it appears > to run better on my notebook, than RH 7.3 > > I've left RedHat in favor of Mandrake Linux, two months ago, after 8 years of being loyal RH user =). For desctop I like Mandrake much more then RH. For server I prefer Slackware. But I think for me LFS for server is more preferable. I don't need that much stuff on server side, And I can make the Perl script who will check if home pages of packets has been changed, and check if new versions has appeared. All the Best! sleepy Serge. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 17 04:29:45 2003 From: cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org (cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org) Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 23:29:45 -0500 Subject: R: Red Hat Enterprise Linux ES In-Reply-To: Message from "Keith Mastin" of "Sun, 16 Nov 2003 21:56:13 EST." <4975.216.138.194.32.1069037773.squirrel-16UnNR4aCrhlws70yGkXPA@public.gmane.org> References: <3.0.3.32.20031113155921.00f916ec@mail.look.ca><3FB62107.1284.C33D49@localhost> <1492947808.20031115134708@istop.com><200311152030.06224.fraser@wehave.net> <494383813.20031116132550@istop.com> <4975.216.138.194.32.1069037773.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> Message-ID: <20031117042946.420853FE9@cbbrowne.com> > If the price of using redhat doesn't scare you, might I suggest that > you use Debian (or any other freely available OSS distro) and donate > the money that you would have spent on Redhat to an OSS outfit that > can put it to better use? It wouldn't take many people using Debian and contributing $1500 per server per year to add up to a LOT of help to support managing packages. Indeed, it wouldn't be half bad to send $20 in once in a while... Or to pick a package at random, and send $20 to someone associated with it... % dpkg -l | wc -l 869 % perl -e "print int(rand()*870), \"\\n\";" 544 % dpkg -l | head -544 | tail -1 ii libtiff3g-dev 3.5.7-2 Tag Image File Format library, ... And see who's responsible, and send a little bit of money at them... Note that I'm NOT expecting it to necessarily be tax-deductible or anything of the sort; a small gift that isn't deductable will almost surely not be taxable in the hands of the recipient, and certainly requires minimal paperwork... -- let name="cbbrowne" and tld="cbbrowne.com" in String.concat "@" [name;tld];; http://cbbrowne.com/info/lsf.html It is impossible to sharpen a pencil with a blunt axe. It is equally vain to try to do it with ten blunt axes instead. -- Edsger W. Dijkstra -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 17 04:32:37 2003 From: cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org (cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org) Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 23:32:37 -0500 Subject: R: Red Hat Enterprise Linux ES In-Reply-To: Message from James Knott of "Sun, 16 Nov 2003 22:10:49 EST." <3FB83C39.3050909-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <3FB83C39.3050909@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20031117043238.2A0013FE9@cbbrowne.com> > I've been thinking about leaving Red Hat for a while now. I'm currently > running RH 7.3 and don't care for the changes in RH 8 & 9. Currenly > SuSE looks interesting. I downloaded the eval CD for v9 and it appears > to run better on my notebook, than RH 7.3 If RHAT is a problem because of the recent changes, well, SuSE underwent the same changes several years ago back at the time of SuSE 6.3. It is roughly as proprietary as Red Hat ES is... -- If this was helpful, rate me http://cbbrowne.com/info/spiritual.html Expect the unexpected. -- The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, page 7023 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From emir-rdkfGonbjUTTQjIoRn/dzw at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 17 05:01:47 2003 From: emir-rdkfGonbjUTTQjIoRn/dzw at public.gmane.org (Emir Alikadic) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 00:01:47 -0500 (EST) Subject: PC133 memory Message-ID: I'm looking for 4 sticks of _registered_ PC100/PC133 memory, 256M each. Please mail me off the list if you've got any. -- "If there's anything more important than my ego around, I want it caught and shot now." [Zaphod Beeblebrox] -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lists-JN5fZfbfKAtWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 17 04:23:40 2003 From: lists-JN5fZfbfKAtWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Julian C. Dunn) Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 23:23:40 -0500 Subject: scanners In-Reply-To: <3FB7EFC5.90806-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <3FB7EC6E.9060602@sympatico.ca> <3FB7EFC5.90806@rogers.com> Message-ID: <1069043019.23563.546.camel@jupiter.acf.aquezada.com> On Sun, 2003-11-16 at 16:44, James Knott wrote: > John McGregor wrote: > > At the consumer level, the plain and simple is that Epson scanners just > > plain work with Linux and the others are a crap shoot. > > The problem with Epson, is that they seem to be scarce, at least at the > major retailers. I bought my Epson Perfection 610U at Canada Computers a while ago. It works like a charm with Linux -- much better than the crummy UMAX it replaced. Sonnam Computers just around the corner also carries some Epson scanners. Both shops are downtown in computer alley, but Canada Computers also has a Markham location in Pacific Mall. - Julian -- [ Julian C. Dunn * ] [ WWW: www.aquezada.com/staff/julian/ * www.dreaming.org/~julian/ ] [ PGP: 0xFDC205B9 - 91B3 7A9D 683C 7C16 715F 442C 6065 D533 FDC2 05B9 ] [ "sometimes you win, sometimes you lose / and most times ] [ you choose between the two" - carole king, "sweet seasons" ] -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From marvinin-NOBIIgrgD1YV+D8aMU/kSg at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 17 11:38:51 2003 From: marvinin-NOBIIgrgD1YV+D8aMU/kSg at public.gmane.org (Mark Vining) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 06:38:51 -0500 Subject: Basic DSL In-Reply-To: <200311161711.53142.fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FB7E560.3030000@enoreo.on.ca> <200311161638.19244.fraser@wehave.net> <3FB7F2FE.9040003@enoreo.on.ca> <200311161711.53142.fraser@wehave.net> Message-ID: <3FB8B34B.90402@enoreo.on.ca> Thanx for all the tips folks. I got it working and am I thrilled. Fraser Campbell wrote: >On November 16, 2003 04:58 pm, Mark Vining wrote: > > > >>I tried that and it did not find the ppoeconfig file. I ran dselect and >>discovered that it was already installed so that wasn't it. >> >>What is the location of pppoeconfig? >> >> > >Sorry I should have looked at a little more closely. I've never used it since >I have a separate firewall running LEAF. The package name is pppoeconfig, >the command that you run is pppoeconf ... > > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From mr6re9-mI4xJ4qlgtBiLUuM0BA3LQ at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 17 14:03:46 2003 From: mr6re9-mI4xJ4qlgtBiLUuM0BA3LQ at public.gmane.org (GDHough) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 09:03:46 -0500 Subject: R: Red Hat Enterprise Linux ES In-Reply-To: <200311152030.06224.fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org> References: <3.0.3.32.20031113155921.00f916ec@mail.look.ca> <1492947808.20031115134708@istop.com> <200311152030.06224.fraser@wehave.net> Message-ID: <200311170903.46722.mr6re9@execulink.com> On Saturday 15 November 2003 20:30, Fraser Campbell wrote: > > If you want to go on the cheap then Redhat Enterprise Server will cost you > $349 every year and you'll get no support from redhat (other than updates). > It's $799 per year with some support. This is what I got from a RH end-of-life update and transition planning email: November 03 If you purchase Red Hat Enterprise Linux WS or ES Basic before February 28, 2004, you will receive 50% off the price for two years.[*] (That's two years for the price of one.) farmer6re9 -- Eating Crow is better with MyCrowSauce -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From wooik-sIZ5AmKAnwVWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 17 15:20:51 2003 From: wooik-sIZ5AmKAnwVWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (WK) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 10:20:51 -0500 Subject: www interface to samba Message-ID: <3FB8E753.50305@halfmind.com> Hi, Anybody have any experience with www interface to samba? What I'm trying to do is to allow user to download/upload files from our samba server using any browser. The thing that's important for us is user friendliness. Thanks, wooi. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From amaynard-vQ8rsROW2HJSpjfjxSPG1fd9D2ou9A/h at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 17 14:11:55 2003 From: amaynard-vQ8rsROW2HJSpjfjxSPG1fd9D2ou9A/h at public.gmane.org (Alex Maynard) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 09:11:55 -0500 Subject: Old IBM Laptop In-Reply-To: <3FB80C4C.9020104-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FB80C4C.9020104@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: Hello All, I'm planning to purchase a used laptop, which I would then install linux on. From previous discussion on this list it sounds like IBM is the best bet. Are there any particular models of old IBM laptops to avoid for linux or anything else I need to watch or am I basically okay with any laptop? Also are distributions of linux particularly suited (or not suited) for laptop use? Thanks for sharing your expert advice with me. Alex ------------ Alex Maynard Assistant Professor Department of Economics University of Toronto 150 St. George St., N304 Toronto ON M5S 3G7 Canada e-mail: amaynard-vQ8rsROW2HJSpjfjxSPG1fd9D2ou9A/h at public.gmane.org tel: (416) 978-4358 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 17 15:56:59 2003 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 10:56:59 -0500 Subject: Apple Color Plus 14" + XFree86 help needed In-Reply-To: References: <20031114225146.GB46947@pluto.bsdwebhosting.net> Message-ID: <20031117155658.GI25986@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Fri, Nov 14, 2003 at 06:28:52PM -0500, Max Blanco wrote: > beige G3. I'm reluctant to change xfree86. I had a similar problem way > back when, and I suspect it is a question of having the magic combination. > The thing is, I'd rather not have to delve into arcana like the > XFree86-Video-Timings-HOWTO... someone, somewhere out there has to have an > Apple Color Plus 14" that works with X already. I don't have the cashola > to buy another, newer, one. > > Anybody have an Apple monitor that works but is headed for the garbage > bin? > > There's another implementation of Xwindows out there?? Well perhaps the mode you want is the one called 640x480-etNlbFTGNQQ at public.gmane.org Vertical sync of 66-67 hz and horizontal of 34-36khz. Perhaps setting your 'Modes' to "640x480-etNlbFTGNQQ at public.gmane.org" will make it work. I think most video cards have that as a default mode in XFree86. As long as you tell it the range for vertical and horizontal just big enough that it will catch the mode you are asking for, it should work. Lennart Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From fcsoft-rxKNY4w4koG3ikBYyZqyVg at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 17 16:08:35 2003 From: fcsoft-rxKNY4w4koG3ikBYyZqyVg at public.gmane.org (bob findlay) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 11:08:35 -0500 Subject: let's expand this idea Message-ID: <20031117160512.0E1BB6AA7@outbox.allstream.net> A while back I connected a small group together to brainstorm business opportunities in the Open Source era. I've summarized the group findings on my website at: http://www.icanprogram.com/selfhostedCD.html Why make the ideas public? I don't believe that the value in most open source business opportunities lies in the idea itself. When you read the discussion above you will not find anything particularly original or mind stretching. How do we take this idea to the next level? Its all in the marketing. This is a hard concept for a technoid (like myself) to accept but this idea will never get out of the gate until someone convinces a paying customer to step up to the plate. The "build it and they will come" marketing method will simply not work in this case. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 17 16:12:25 2003 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 11:12:25 -0500 Subject: Linux Scanners In-Reply-To: <3FB7E443.1040509-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FB7E443.1040509@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <20031117161225.GJ25986@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Sun, Nov 16, 2003 at 03:55:31PM -0500, John Moniz wrote: > This subject comes up once in a while, but since developments happen > quickly, I'd like to ask again. > > I'm intending on treating myself to a scanner soon, but one that is good > for photo/film/slide scanning. I'd like to pick a brand that is very > Linux friendly, not just a model that is on the USB list. Which company > would be good to support? Is Epson as good with scanners as it is with > printers? I had a look at an Epson Perfection 1670 Photo scanner that > might fit my requirements, although it looks almost too inexpensive. Is > Canon still a PITA? Any scanner suggestions would be welcome? I haven't read or heard anything about brands other than Epson ever just working. Epson has the advantage that they make their own scanners and hence can use the same command set in all of them, which they document and let developers get at. I think all other scanner companies mostly just rebrand scanners form a few makers. One place on the Sane site I saw the comment that if it is Epson, it will work, if not now, within a few weeks or months. Lennart Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 17 16:14:02 2003 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 11:14:02 -0500 Subject: scanners In-Reply-To: <3FB7EFC5.90806-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <3FB7EC6E.9060602@sympatico.ca> <3FB7EFC5.90806@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20031117161402.GK25986@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Sun, Nov 16, 2003 at 04:44:37PM -0500, James Knott wrote: > John McGregor wrote: > >At the consumer level, the plain and simple is that Epson scanners just > >plain work with Linux and the others are a crap shoot. > > The problem with Epson, is that they seem to be scarce, at least at the > major retailers. Staples caries some, Computer City caries some, many small computer stores carry them, etc. Not hard to find. If you are desperate, check the dealer list on the epson web site or buy from epson direct. :) Lennart Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From taavi-LbuTpDkqzNzXI80/IeQp7B2eb7JE58TQ at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 17 16:18:57 2003 From: taavi-LbuTpDkqzNzXI80/IeQp7B2eb7JE58TQ at public.gmane.org (Taavi Burns) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 11:18:57 -0500 Subject: Old IBM Laptop In-Reply-To: References: <3FB80C4C.9020104@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <20031117161857.GA11023@hatefulsheep.ym.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> On Mon, Nov 17, 2003 at 09:11:55AM -0500, Alex Maynard wrote: > I'm planning to purchase a used laptop, which I would then install linux > on. From previous discussion on this list it sounds like IBM is the best > bet. Are there any particular models of old IBM laptops to avoid for linux > or anything else I need to watch or am I basically okay with any laptop? > Also are distributions of linux particularly suited (or not suited) for > laptop use? I'm running Gentoo on my T30, and it works like a charm as a desktop machine. ;) I say that because I haven't gotten sleep or hibernate working yet. Also, you may want to avoid the MiniPCI wifi cards (at least the Cisco ones) if you intend to use the iwtools and/or Kernel 2.6 (Cisco has a driver for 2.4 that seems to work just fine...if you don't mind using their supplied utility to configure the card). The battery indicator stuff works beautifully, as does SpeedStep (though it seems to have a disagreement with the sound driver, which can cause the sound to break up when it switches speeds). You may want to join the Linux Thinkpad mailing list, as this is their speciality. -- taa /*eof*/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From Kpanchoo-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 17 16:19:45 2003 From: Kpanchoo-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Kerry Panchoo) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 11:19:45 -0500 Subject: www interface to samba In-Reply-To: <3FB8E753.50305-sIZ5AmKAnwVWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org> References: <3FB8E753.50305@halfmind.com> Message-ID: <3FB8F521.406@rogers.com> I've used it on a few occasions.. most of the time it worsk pretty well-- i couldnt get it to work with the last RH9 release.. Kerry WK wrote: > Hi, > > Anybody have any experience with www interface to samba? What I'm > trying to do is to allow user to download/upload files from our samba > server using any browser. The thing that's important for us is user > friendliness. > > Thanks, > wooi. > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 17 16:15:29 2003 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 11:15:29 -0500 Subject: scanners In-Reply-To: <3FB7F993.3070600-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <3FB7EC6E.9060602@sympatico.ca> <3FB7EFC5.90806@rogers.com> <3FB7F7DC.1080906@sympatico.ca> <3FB7F993.3070600@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20031117161528.GL25986@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Sun, Nov 16, 2003 at 05:26:27PM -0500, James Knott wrote: > John Moniz wrote: > > > >I think there was only one model available, but I did see one at Staples > >(Epson Perfection 1670 Photo). > > That's a small scanner for photographs and slides. It won't handle full > size sheets. It is a full page scanner with an attachment included for doing slides and such. > John McGregor mentioned Vistek, but they're downtown and a little out of > my way. It would be nice if Staples or Future shop carried the full > size Epson scanners. They do carry some of them. Maybe not the 3200dpi versions, but still. Lennart Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From gwalsh-HFI606nGbY9eoWH0uzbU5w at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 17 17:23:20 2003 From: gwalsh-HFI606nGbY9eoWH0uzbU5w at public.gmane.org (Gary Walsh) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 12:23:20 -0500 Subject: Linux Scanners In-Reply-To: <3FB7E443.1040509-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FB7E443.1040509@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <3FB90408.3050808@oeone.net> Speaking of scanners, I would like to recommend Vuescan (http://www.hamrick.com/vsm.html). Although it is non-free software, it is the only way I could get my Canon film scanner to work on Linux and is high quality with a lot of options. Vuescan software is available for Linux, Windows and Mac OSX. -- Gary Walsh Kitchener, Ontario, Canada gwalsh-HFI606nGbY9eoWH0uzbU5w at public.gmane.org http://www.oeone.net/gwalsh -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From teddymills-VFlxZYho3OA at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 17 17:39:16 2003 From: teddymills-VFlxZYho3OA at public.gmane.org (Teddy Mills) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 12:39:16 -0500 Subject: quote or name References: Message-ID: <002901c3ad31$bcfd3760$0301a8c0@amazon> I dont know what irritates me more, the quote or the name. > -- > "If there's anything more important than my ego around, > I want it caught and shot now." [Zaphod Beeblebrox] > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From matt-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 17 17:42:15 2003 From: matt-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Matthew Rice) Date: 17 Nov 2003 12:42:15 -0500 Subject: webcam for Linux In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Does anyone know of a good one? The specs that I'm hoping for are: - has a clip so that it can sit on the top edge of my laptop's screen - has a USB connector [that works in Linux, duh!!] - can take snap shots - optionally, will show the live picture in a little window As you can see, I'm easy to please but have absolutely no experience with webcams. Everyone that I've spoken with defaults to Logitech. I'll do my own researchbefore buying but any pointers are appreciated. TTYL, -- matthew rice starnix inc. phone: 905-771-0017 x242 thornhill, ontario, canada http://www.starnix.com professional linux services & products -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From taavi-LbuTpDkqzNzXI80/IeQp7B2eb7JE58TQ at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 17 17:49:43 2003 From: taavi-LbuTpDkqzNzXI80/IeQp7B2eb7JE58TQ at public.gmane.org (Taavi Burns) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 12:49:43 -0500 Subject: quote or name In-Reply-To: <002901c3ad31$bcfd3760$0301a8c0-vAnPq90cUBg@public.gmane.org> References: <002901c3ad31$bcfd3760$0301a8c0@amazon> Message-ID: <20031117174943.GB11023@hatefulsheep.ym.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> On Mon, Nov 17, 2003 at 12:39:16PM -0500, Teddy Mills wrote: > > I dont know what irritates me more, the quote or the name. If it's all that irritating, you really should get out more: http://www.zaphodbeeblebrox.com/ > > "If there's anything more important than my ego around, > > I want it caught and shot now." [Zaphod Beeblebrox] -- taa /*eof*/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From wooik-sIZ5AmKAnwVWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 17 18:11:36 2003 From: wooik-sIZ5AmKAnwVWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (WK) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 13:11:36 -0500 Subject: www interface to samba In-Reply-To: <3FB8F521.406-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <3FB8E753.50305@halfmind.com> <3FB8F521.406@rogers.com> Message-ID: <3FB90F58.7070200@halfmind.com> Are you refering to smb2www? I tried it, I don't think my users will like it though. Kerry Panchoo wrote: > I've used it on a few occasions.. most of the time it worsk pretty > well-- i couldnt get it to work with the last RH9 release.. > > Kerry > > WK wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> Anybody have any experience with www interface to samba? What I'm >> trying to do is to allow user to download/upload files from our samba >> server using any browser. The thing that's important for us is user >> friendliness. >> >> Thanks, >> wooi. >> -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From wmcgilvery-6d3DWWOeJtE at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 17 18:09:33 2003 From: wmcgilvery-6d3DWWOeJtE at public.gmane.org (Wil McGilvery) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 13:09:33 -0500 Subject: www interface to samba Message-ID: <65B7B304AA3DE147BBD33938FE204E284A9460@lynchmail.lynch.msft> Does it need to be samba? Regards, Wil McGilvery Manager Lynch Digital Media Inc 416-744-7949 416-716-3964 (cell) 1-866-314-4678 416-744-0406? FAX www.LynchDigital.com -----Original Message----- From: WK [mailto:wooik-sIZ5AmKAnwVWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org] Sent: Monday, November 17, 2003 1:12 PM To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Subject: Re: [TLUG]: www interface to samba Are you refering to smb2www? I tried it, I don't think my users will like it though. Kerry Panchoo wrote: > I've used it on a few occasions.. most of the time it worsk pretty > well-- i couldnt get it to work with the last RH9 release.. > > Kerry > > WK wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> Anybody have any experience with www interface to samba? What I'm >> trying to do is to allow user to download/upload files from our samba >> server using any browser. The thing that's important for us is user >> friendliness. >> >> Thanks, >> wooi. >> -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From emir-rdkfGonbjUTTQjIoRn/dzw at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 17 18:19:45 2003 From: emir-rdkfGonbjUTTQjIoRn/dzw at public.gmane.org (Emir) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 13:19:45 -0500 Subject: quote or name In-Reply-To: <002901c3ad31$bcfd3760$0301a8c0-vAnPq90cUBg@public.gmane.org> References: <002901c3ad31$bcfd3760$0301a8c0@amazon> Message-ID: <3FB91141.6000604@codemonkeys.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 17/11/2003 12:39, Teddy Mills wrote: > I dont know what irritates me more, the quote or the name. Obviously you're not a HHGTTG fan... - -- Emir. "Politicians, like diapers, have to be changed frequently. And for the very same reason." -- Anonymous -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (MingW32) iD8DBQE/uRFBuSy542G+Z7QRAhQuAJ0cSKJE1mnAxTgAx3imy3iq4IV4OQCeMW1k +a57dpotaHNrKdvOPM4AFRg= =C4Py -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From wooik-sIZ5AmKAnwVWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 17 18:23:08 2003 From: wooik-sIZ5AmKAnwVWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (WK) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 13:23:08 -0500 Subject: www interface to samba In-Reply-To: <65B7B304AA3DE147BBD33938FE204E284A9460-49iW0tF5bQXl9+zcyUE9hx1TMoFmMu2o@public.gmane.org> References: <65B7B304AA3DE147BBD33938FE204E284A9460@lynchmail.lynch.msft> Message-ID: <3FB9120C.7040503@halfmind.com> Yes, since the users connect to the samba server through windows machines at the office. The web interface to the samba would allow the users to upload/download files using browser from anywhere. Wil McGilvery wrote: > Does it need to be samba? > > Regards, > > Wil McGilvery > Manager > Lynch Digital Media Inc -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From matt-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 17 18:34:56 2003 From: matt-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Matthew Rice) Date: 17 Nov 2003 13:34:56 -0500 Subject: quote or name In-Reply-To: <3FB91141.6000604-rdkfGonbjUTTQjIoRn/dzw@public.gmane.org> References: <002901c3ad31$bcfd3760$0301a8c0@amazon> <3FB91141.6000604@codemonkeys.org> Message-ID: Emir writes: > > I dont know what irritates me more, the quote or the name. > > Obviously you're not a HHGTTG fan... I think that H2G2 is the more accepted shortform. In fact, there's a 'guide' at: http://www.h2g2.com And Zaphod has earned the right to say things like that. -- matthew rice starnix inc. phone: 905-771-0017 x242 thornhill, ontario, canada http://www.starnix.com professional linux services & products -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From wmcgilvery-6d3DWWOeJtE at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 17 18:43:16 2003 From: wmcgilvery-6d3DWWOeJtE at public.gmane.org (Wil McGilvery) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 13:43:16 -0500 Subject: www interface to samba Message-ID: <65B7B304AA3DE147BBD33938FE204E28319179@lynchmail.lynch.msft> There are some web based tools for accessing samba shares found here http://us1.samba.org/samba/GUI/ I don't think any of these include file uploading, but you could add that functionality I suppose. Why not use something like the Apache File Manager Module and .htaccess files. It would be a lot safer to have the passwords separate. Also Webmin has an upload/download feature. http://www.niemueller.de/webmin/modules/upload/ How many users are we talking about? Regards, Wil McGilvery Manager Lynch Digital Media Inc 416-744-7949 416-716-3964 (cell) 1-866-314-4678 416-744-0406? FAX www.LynchDigital.com -----Original Message----- From: WK [mailto:wooik-sIZ5AmKAnwVWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org] Sent: Monday, November 17, 2003 1:23 PM To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Subject: Re: [TLUG]: www interface to samba Yes, since the users connect to the samba server through windows machines at the office. The web interface to the samba would allow the users to upload/download files using browser from anywhere. Wil McGilvery wrote: > Does it need to be samba? > > Regards, > > Wil McGilvery > Manager > Lynch Digital Media Inc -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From emir-rdkfGonbjUTTQjIoRn/dzw at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 17 18:58:26 2003 From: emir-rdkfGonbjUTTQjIoRn/dzw at public.gmane.org (Emir) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 13:58:26 -0500 Subject: quote or name In-Reply-To: References: <002901c3ad31$bcfd3760$0301a8c0@amazon> <3FB91141.6000604@codemonkeys.org> Message-ID: <3FB91A52.5080705@codemonkeys.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 17/11/2003 13:34, Matthew Rice wrote: > I think that H2G2 is the more accepted shortform. In fact, there's a 'guide' > at: > http://www.h2g2.com Kids these days, everything is abbreviated... In my day, we had to pronounce it in full, Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy! The Enlightened Ones were allowed to refer to it simply as The Guide, but only after consuming copius amounts of The PanGalactic GargleBlaster. > And Zaphod has earned the right to say things like that. "Three arms, two heads, and one big ego. Zaphod Beeblebrox is cool. He's so cool you could keep a side of meat in him for a month." - -- Emir. "Politicians, like diapers, have to be changed frequently. And for the very same reason." -- Anonymous -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (MingW32) iD8DBQE/uRpSuSy542G+Z7QRAuKiAKCYDJGOXaabGhPKUQnufn78VKRvLgCdFW7V /VQcmcXaC0lygYmk8ySdy8M= =Uzjh -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From kcozens-qazKcTl6WRFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 17 19:25:03 2003 From: kcozens-qazKcTl6WRFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Kevin Cozens) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 14:25:03 -0500 Subject: quote or name In-Reply-To: References: <3FB91141.6000604@codemonkeys.org> <002901c3ad31$bcfd3760$0301a8c0@amazon> <3FB91141.6000604@codemonkeys.org> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20031117141618.0201c7a0@mail.interlog.com> At 01:34 PM 11/17/2003 -0500, you wrote: > > Obviously you're not a HHGTTG fan... > >I think that H2G2 is the more accepted shortform. In fact, there's a 'guide' >at: > http://www.h2g2.com I have been a fan for years but I have never seen HHGTTG abbreviated that way before. Cheers! Kevin. (http://www.interlog.com/~kcozens/) Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172 |"What are we going to do today, Borg?" E-mail:kcozens at interlog dot com|"Same thing we always do, Pinkutus: Packet:ve3syb-XXPEJ3/fxIc at public.gmane.org#con.on.ca.na| Try to assimilate the world!" #include | -Pinkutus & the Borg -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From kcozens-qazKcTl6WRFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 17 19:25:54 2003 From: kcozens-qazKcTl6WRFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Kevin Cozens) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 14:25:54 -0500 Subject: Linux Scanners In-Reply-To: <3FB7E443.1040509-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FB7E443.1040509@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20031117142257.02002820@mail.interlog.com> At 03:55 PM 11/16/2003 -0500, John wrote: >I'm intending on treating myself to a scanner soon, but one that is good >for photo/film/slide scanning. Don't forget to check the list of scanners supported as part of the Sane project before making your final selection. Cheers! Kevin. (http://www.interlog.com/~kcozens/) Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172 |"What are we going to do today, Borg?" E-mail:kcozens at interlog dot com|"Same thing we always do, Pinkutus: Packet:ve3syb-XXPEJ3/fxIc at public.gmane.org#con.on.ca.na| Try to assimilate the world!" #include | -Pinkutus & the Borg -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 17 19:42:00 2003 From: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 14:42:00 -0500 (EST) Subject: quote or name In-Reply-To: <3FB91A52.5080705-rdkfGonbjUTTQjIoRn/dzw@public.gmane.org> References: <002901c3ad31$bcfd3760$0301a8c0@amazon> <3FB91141.6000604@codemonkeys.org> <3FB91A52.5080705@codemonkeys.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Nov 2003, Emir wrote: > Kids these days, everything is abbreviated... In my day, we had to pronounce > it in full, Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy! The Enlightened Ones were > allowed to refer to it simply as The Guide, but only after consuming copius "Mostly Harmless". Rob -- Robert Brockway B.Sc. email: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org, zzbrock at uqconnect.net Linux counter project ID #16440 (http://counter.li.org) "The earth is but one country and mankind its citizens" -Baha'u'llah -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From kcozens-qazKcTl6WRFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 17 19:54:05 2003 From: kcozens-qazKcTl6WRFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Kevin Cozens) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 14:54:05 -0500 Subject: www interface to samba In-Reply-To: <3FB8E753.50305-sIZ5AmKAnwVWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org> References: <3FB8E753.50305@halfmind.com> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20031117145009.01feb010@mail.interlog.com> At 10:20 AM 11/17/2003 -0500, wooi wrote: >Anybody have any experience with www interface to samba? What I'm trying >to do is to allow user to download/upload files from our samba server >using any browser. The thing that's important for us is user friendliness. Are your other users which need the www interface other Linux users or are they Windows users? If they are Windows users, the simplest method of retrieving/uploading files would be via a share. If you want to allow file upload via a www interface you will need to set up your web server to allow PUT operations. Cheers! Kevin. (http://www.interlog.com/~kcozens/) Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172 |"What are we going to do today, Borg?" E-mail:kcozens at interlog dot com|"Same thing we always do, Pinkutus: Packet:ve3syb-XXPEJ3/fxIc at public.gmane.org#con.on.ca.na| Try to assimilate the world!" #include | -Pinkutus & the Borg -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From linuxbrad-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 17 19:53:06 2003 From: linuxbrad-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Brad Fonseca) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 14:53:06 -0500 Subject: Configuring KMail at home Message-ID: <007201c3ad44$6e47b380$6401a8c0@msbrad> Hi Folks, I just installed Mandrake 9.2 on my laptop. I'm trying to configure Kmail to allow me to send email. I receive email alright but when I send I get, "Sending failed: The server did not accept the sender address. The server responded: "Invalid extension (Fonseca) " The message will stay in the 'outbox' folder until you either fix the problem (e.g. a broken address) or remove the message from the 'outbox' folder. Note: Other messages will also be blocked by this message, as long as it is in the 'outbox' folder The following transport protocol was used: linuxbrad" I'm on Rogers broadband. Anyone else run into this problem? -- Regards, Brad Fonseca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From blsonne-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 17 20:05:13 2003 From: blsonne-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Byron Sonne) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 15:05:13 -0500 Subject: quote or name In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20031117141618.0201c7a0-Nf8GSVjHSL5zk1aGpazrEgC/G2K4zDHf@public.gmane.org> References: <3FB91141.6000604@codemonkeys.org> <002901c3ad31$bcfd3760$0301a8c0@amazon> <3FB91141.6000604@codemonkeys.org> <5.2.1.1.0.20031117141618.0201c7a0@mail.interlog.com> Message-ID: <3FB929F9.8020201@rogers.com> >> I think that H2G2 is the more accepted shortform. > I have been a fan for years but I have never seen HHGTTG abbreviated > that way before. I think that's where Slashdot beat everyone over the head with Yank monoculture... I never saw it done as H2G2 either until 5 or 6 years ago. To me, it was always HHGTG or simply 'Hitchhiker's'. -- For good, return good. For evil, return justice. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From wooik-sIZ5AmKAnwVWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 17 20:12:21 2003 From: wooik-sIZ5AmKAnwVWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (WK) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 15:12:21 -0500 Subject: www interface to samba In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20031117145009.01feb010-Nf8GSVjHSL5zk1aGpazrEgC/G2K4zDHf@public.gmane.org> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20031117145009.01feb010@mail.interlog.com> Message-ID: <3FB92BA5.6060309@halfmind.com> They are mainly windows users. Share over internet won't work it will be blocked by firewall. The main concern that I have of using Apache File Manager Module as suggested by Will is security. I don't want the apache user to have access to these files. Now I'm thinking about it, I don't know if this is possible at all. wooi. > > Are your other users which need the www interface other Linux users or > are they Windows users? If they are Windows users, the simplest method > of retrieving/uploading files would be via a share. > > If you want to allow file upload via a www interface you will need to > set up your web server to allow PUT operations. > > > Cheers! > > Kevin. (http://www.interlog.com/~kcozens/) > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 17 20:13:26 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 15:13:26 -0500 Subject: Configuring KMail at home In-Reply-To: <007201c3ad44$6e47b380$6401a8c0-6LBfOt28Mh4@public.gmane.org> References: <007201c3ad44$6e47b380$6401a8c0@msbrad> Message-ID: <20031117151326.06df92c7.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Mon, 17 Nov 2003 14:53:06 -0500 "Brad Fonseca" wrote: > I just installed Mandrake 9.2 on my laptop. I'm trying to configure > Kmail to allow me to send email. I receive email alright but when I > send I get, "Sending failed: The server did not accept the sender > address. The server responded: "Invalid extension (Fonseca) " The > message will stay in the'outbox' folder until you either fix the > problem (e.g. a broken address) or remove the message from the > 'outbox' folder. Note: Other messages will also be blocked by this > message, as long as it is in the 'outbox' folder The following > transport protocol was used: linuxbrad" It just sounds like KMail is misconfigured. What do you have set for your smtp server in KMail? Is it the Rogers smtp server or the local Postfix server? What is "linuxbrad"? It looks like that is in the config field where it should not be. The transport protocol should of course be "smtp". -- JoeHill Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "One of the most dangerous errors of our time is the belief that human beings are uniquely violent animals, barely restrained from committing atrocities on each other by the constraints of ethics, religion, and the state."-- Eric S. Raymond -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From kru_tch-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 17 20:37:18 2003 From: kru_tch-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (Stephen Allen) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 15:37:18 -0500 Subject: Exim (Woody) Message-ID: <3FB9317E.5020306@yahoo.ca> I'm attempting to set up Exim, to use SMTP AUTH PLAIN, to work with Rogers as the smarthost. I'm having difficulty (in fact can't send at all), via Rogers 'ssmtp.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com' using Exim. I know it's a configuration issue with my Exim.cnf, but I can't figure out the proper syntax. Anyone have Exim working with Rogers, that could share the relevant part of their .conf or offer help? -- Best Regards, Steve -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From kmastin-PzQIwG9Jn9VAFePFGvp55w at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 17 20:30:32 2003 From: kmastin-PzQIwG9Jn9VAFePFGvp55w at public.gmane.org (Keith Mastin) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 15:30:32 -0500 (EST) Subject: www interface to samba In-Reply-To: <3FB9120C.7040503-sIZ5AmKAnwVWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org> References: <65B7B304AA3DE147BBD33938FE204E284A9460@lynchmail.lynch.msft> <3FB9120C.7040503@halfmind.com> Message-ID: <2058.216.138.194.32.1069101032.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> > Yes, since the users connect to the samba server through windows > machines at the office. The web interface to the samba would allow the > users to upload/download files using browser from anywhere. Can anyone else see a security nightmare in the makings here? Here's a susggestion: Load WinSCP3 on the windoh$ machines and configure sshd on the server side and let the users connect remotely to the file server with that. Fast, simple and done. -- Keith -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From linuxbrad-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 17 21:02:30 2003 From: linuxbrad-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Brad Fonseca) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 16:02:30 -0500 Subject: Configuring KMail at home In-Reply-To: <20031117151326.06df92c7.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <007201c3ad44$6e47b380$6401a8c0@msbrad> <20031117151326.06df92c7.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <200311171602.30954.linuxbrad@rogers.com> On November 17, 2003 03:13 pm, JoeHill wrote: > It just sounds like KMail is misconfigured. > > What do you have set for your smtp server in KMail? Is it the Rogers > smtp server or the local Postfix server? > > What is "linuxbrad"? It looks like that is in the config field where it > should not be. The transport protocol should of course be "smtp". You were right, of course! I had to check "Server Requires Authentication", put my full email address under login name and set the Authentication Method under the Security tab to "LOGIN" Thank you for your help. Regards, Brad Fonseca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From wooik-sIZ5AmKAnwVWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 17 21:10:58 2003 From: wooik-sIZ5AmKAnwVWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (WK) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 16:10:58 -0500 Subject: www interface to samba In-Reply-To: <2058.216.138.194.32.1069101032.squirrel-16UnNR4aCrhlws70yGkXPA@public.gmane.org> References: <65B7B304AA3DE147BBD33938FE204E284A9460@lynchmail.lynch.msft> <3FB9120C.7040503@halfmind.com> <2058.216.138.194.32.1069101032.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> Message-ID: <3FB93962.6040408@halfmind.com> That's currently my backup solution, I tested it and it works under scponly shell since I don't want the user to have shell access. I thought there might be a better solution than winscp3, nobody uses winscp3 before, and I don't want to spend time supporting winscp3. But if I can't find a better solution, I guess this is the solution I'm going to implement. wooi. Keith Mastin wrote: >>Yes, since the users connect to the samba server through windows >>machines at the office. The web interface to the samba would allow the >>users to upload/download files using browser from anywhere. > > > Can anyone else see a security nightmare in the makings here? Here's a > susggestion: Load WinSCP3 on the windoh$ machines and configure sshd on > the server side and let the users connect remotely to the file server with > that. Fast, simple and done. > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From kcozens-qazKcTl6WRFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 17 21:29:56 2003 From: kcozens-qazKcTl6WRFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Kevin Cozens) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 16:29:56 -0500 Subject: anything@somethingelse.whatever In-Reply-To: <3FB3BF14.AA69D36-BwLjziHGQLusTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FB3BF14.AA69D36@onlink.net> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20031117162700.01fe62a0@mail.interlog.com> At 12:27 PM 11/13/2003 -0500, Chris Aitken wrote: >Does anyone know how to turn off the automatic hyperlinking of >anything-f52GMkFzgz9UzNJCNVxzr5EluF3sTVYu at public.gmane.org in WordPerfect 8 for linux? I had what I believe was a much older version of WP for Linux. Where did you get a copy of WP 8 for Linux? I'd like to use it but it seems it is no longer available for download off the Corel web site. Cheers! Kevin. (http://www.interlog.com/~kcozens/) Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172 |"What are we going to do today, Borg?" E-mail:kcozens at interlog dot com|"Same thing we always do, Pinkutus: Packet:ve3syb-XXPEJ3/fxIc at public.gmane.org#con.on.ca.na| Try to assimilate the world!" #include | -Pinkutus & the Borg -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From kcozens-qazKcTl6WRFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 17 21:56:41 2003 From: kcozens-qazKcTl6WRFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Kevin Cozens) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 16:56:41 -0500 Subject: www interface to samba In-Reply-To: <3FB92BA5.6060309-sIZ5AmKAnwVWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20031117145009.01feb010@mail.interlog.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20031117145009.01feb010@mail.interlog.com> <3FB92BA5.6060309@halfmind.com> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20031117163228.01fe8550@mail.interlog.com> At 03:12 PM 11/17/2003 -0500, wooi wrote: >They are mainly windows users. Share over internet won't work it will be >blocked by firewall. Ah. I thought you might have been talking about users on a LAN. >The main concern that I have of using Apache File Manager Module as >suggested by Will is security. I don't want the apache user to have >access to these files. Since you want users to be able to upload/download files using a web browser then the apache user must have access to the files. That shouldn't be much of a problem since the apache user should be a unique user ID and group not used by a regular user. The biggest problem may be the use of .htaccess and creating/maintaining the user ID's and passwords to protect access to the files. You don't want to provide unrestricted upload/download to avoid people on the net using your site as a place where they could exchange copyrighted material. Cheers! Kevin. (http://www.interlog.com/~kcozens/) Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172 |"What are we going to do today, Borg?" E-mail:kcozens at interlog dot com|"Same thing we always do, Pinkutus: Packet:ve3syb-XXPEJ3/fxIc at public.gmane.org#con.on.ca.na| Try to assimilate the world!" #include | -Pinkutus & the Borg -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lists-Gb8Tj4xcA4YgsBAKwltoeQ at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 18 00:01:26 2003 From: lists-Gb8Tj4xcA4YgsBAKwltoeQ at public.gmane.org (Byron Q. Desnoyers Winmill) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 19:01:26 -0500 (EST) Subject: anything@somethingelse.whatever In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20031117162700.01fe62a0-Nf8GSVjHSL5zk1aGpazrEgC/G2K4zDHf@public.gmane.org> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20031117162700.01fe62a0@mail.interlog.com> Message-ID: It is out there. The best way to find it is to check academic sites. The big problem is finding a registration key. AFAIK, Corel doesn't give them out any more and doesn't sell them any more. (Corel did the same thing with the Macintosh version.) The best thing to do is to watch for boxed copies. Byron On Mon, 17 Nov 2003, Kevin Cozens wrote: > I had what I believe was a much older version of WP for Linux. Where did > you get a copy of WP 8 for Linux? I'd like to use it but it seems it is no > longer available for download off the Corel web site. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From dougish-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 17 22:36:47 2003 From: dougish-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org (dougish-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 17:36:47 -0500 Subject: Linux Scanners In-Reply-To: <3FB90408.3050808-HFI606nGbY9eoWH0uzbU5w@public.gmane.org> References: <3FB7E443.1040509@sympatico.ca> <3FB90408.3050808@oeone.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Nov 2003 12:23:20 -0500, Gary wrote: >Speaking of scanners, I would like to recommend Vuescan >(http://www.hamrick.com/vsm.html). Although it is non-free software, it >is the only way I could get my Canon film scanner to work on Linux and >is high quality with a lot of options. Vuescan software is available >for Linux, Windows and Mac OSX. > One caveat, Vuescan does not support the Epson 3170. According to Ed Hamrick, the program's author, the 3170 uses a different internal command set. http://www.hamrick.com/vuescan/vuescan.htm#supported Doug Isherwood -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From taavi-LbuTpDkqzNzXI80/IeQp7B2eb7JE58TQ at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 17 22:41:37 2003 From: taavi-LbuTpDkqzNzXI80/IeQp7B2eb7JE58TQ at public.gmane.org (Taavi Burns) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 17:41:37 -0500 Subject: www interface to samba In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20031117163228.01fe8550-Nf8GSVjHSL5zk1aGpazrEgC/G2K4zDHf@public.gmane.org> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20031117145009.01feb010@mail.interlog.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20031117145009.01feb010@mail.interlog.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20031117163228.01fe8550@mail.interlog.com> Message-ID: <20031117224137.GD11457@hatefulsheep.ym.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> On Mon, Nov 17, 2003 at 04:56:41PM -0500, Kevin Cozens wrote: > The biggest problem may be the use of .htaccess and creating/maintaining > the user ID's and passwords to protect access to the files. You don't want That would be a total nightmare. Oughtn't there be a way to use PAM with Apache to provide a centralised username/password service across Samba and a web interface (https, of course)? -- taa /*eof*/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From dougish-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 17 22:48:11 2003 From: dougish-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org (dougish-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 17:48:11 -0500 Subject: scanners In-Reply-To: <20031117161528.GL25986-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <3FB7EC6E.9060602@sympatico.ca> <3FB7EFC5.90806@rogers.com> <3FB7F7DC.1080906@sympatico.ca> <3FB7F993.3070600@rogers.com> <20031117161528.GL25986@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <9djirvc778la0v498o4r47kqt85hsqhumf@4ax.com> On Mon, 17 Nov 2003 11:15:29 -0500, Lennart wrote: >On Sun, Nov 16, 2003 at 05:26:27PM -0500, James Knott wrote: >> John Moniz wrote: >> > >> >I think there was only one model available, but I did see one at Staples >> >(Epson Perfection 1670 Photo). >> >> That's a small scanner for photographs and slides. It won't handle full >> size sheets. > >It is a full page scanner with an attachment included for doing slides >and such. > >> John McGregor mentioned Vistek, but they're downtown and a little out of >> my way. It would be nice if Staples or Future shop carried the full >> size Epson scanners. > >They do carry some of them. Maybe not the 3200dpi versions, but still. > >Lennart Sorensen An Alternative to Vistek is Henry's Cameras. A touch cheaper and they have branches in several areas of the GTA. I bought the Epson 3200 from Henry's. It's a full page (letter or A4) flat bed scanner with the transparency adapter built into the lid (capable of upto 4in. x 9in.), but it is not cheap (~$600). I have not tried it in Linux yet since I just blew out my Red Hat partition to install Debian and I haven't gotten X to work yet. Doug Isherwood -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 17 23:16:00 2003 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 18:16:00 -0500 Subject: Openoffice missing Wordperfect format? Message-ID: <20031117231600.GA2346@node1.opengeometry.net> I just installed OpenOffice-1.1, and I noticed that it doesn't give me Wordperfect format when I try to open a file. Do I have to download a separate file? -- William Park, Open Geometry Consulting, Linux solution for data management and processing. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From kmastin-PzQIwG9Jn9VAFePFGvp55w at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 17 23:39:57 2003 From: kmastin-PzQIwG9Jn9VAFePFGvp55w at public.gmane.org (Keith Mastin) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 18:39:57 -0500 (EST) Subject: www interface to samba In-Reply-To: <20031117224137.GD11457-9xiANKxwco42bRTacqR3/JR8nzhMnQZF/mqnPsBvoffFpvyHdVPjngC/G2K4zDHf@public.gmane.org> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20031117145009.01feb010@mail.interlog.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20031117145009.01feb010@mail.interlog.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20031117163228.01fe8550@mail.interlog.com> <20031117224137.GD11457@hatefulsheep.ym.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> Message-ID: <2248.216.138.194.32.1069112397.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> > On Mon, Nov 17, 2003 at 04:56:41PM -0500, Kevin Cozens wrote: >> The biggest problem may be the use of .htaccess and creating/maintaining >> the user ID's and passwords to protect access to the files. You don't >> want > > That would be a total nightmare. Oughtn't there be a way to use PAM with > Apache to provide a centralised username/password service across Samba > and a web interface (https, of course)? Your life just got easier. mod_auth_pam -- Keith -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From kmastin-PzQIwG9Jn9VAFePFGvp55w at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 18 00:28:44 2003 From: kmastin-PzQIwG9Jn9VAFePFGvp55w at public.gmane.org (Keith Mastin) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 19:28:44 -0500 (EST) Subject: www interface to samba In-Reply-To: <3FB93962.6040408-sIZ5AmKAnwVWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org> References: <65B7B304AA3DE147BBD33938FE204E284A9460@lynchmail.lynch.msft> <3FB9120C.7040503@halfmind.com> <2058.216.138.194.32.1069101032.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> <3FB93962.6040408@halfmind.com> Message-ID: <2283.216.138.194.32.1069115324.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> > That's currently my backup solution, I tested it and it works under > scponly shell since I don't want the user to have shell access. I > thought there might be a better solution than winscp3, nobody uses > winscp3 before, and I don't want to spend time supporting winscp3. > > But if I can't find a better solution, I guess this is the solution I'm > going to implement. I don't think I would use samba in this instance. Samba from within the internal office networks yes, but I wouldn't offer those machines up to the h4x0r gods unless I had a good reason to. And yeah, I've found that WinSCP has it's downsides too, so you're looking for a better solution. I have a setup that allows remote file access through ftp, using a few different programs. Samba runs on the internal network, with all shared files stored only on the samba server. Check samba3, it has some improvements over the 2x series. The samba shares are accessed over the Internet via vsftpd. Authentication is 100% pam with mod_auth_pam. Users can login into the share by clicking a network share icon on the desktop at work or using the ftp address or clicking a link on the webpage from home. They can also change their password from the website, and are requested to frequently. I'm running openssl-enabled apache-1.3.28. Not exactly as slick as samba, but it has advantages: -only the one computer is actually accessed from the web -vsftpd makes sure that the share is chrooted -abuse of shares by loading p0rn or other crap is easily kiboshed -username and password pairs for web access need not be the same as the smbpasswd info, and are accessed via openssl in any event -I can add certain users and allow or disallow file uploads or downloads by group or user -by messing with the default file permissions I can personally inspect uploaded files before they're available for downloading Another solution I use is PostNuke. There are modules for filesharing among about a kazzillion other modules that can give your site a lot of virtual office capabilities. It's also worth looking into. HTH >>>Yes, since the users connect to the samba server through windows >>>machines at the office. The web interface to the samba would allow the >>>users to upload/download files using browser from anywhere. >> >> Can anyone else see a security nightmare in the makings here? Here's a >> susggestion: Load WinSCP3 on the windoh$ machines and configure sshd on >> the server side and let the users connect remotely to the file server >> with that. Fast, simple and done. -- Keith -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 18 00:52:01 2003 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 19:52:01 -0500 Subject: scanners In-Reply-To: <20031117161402.GK25986-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <3FB7EC6E.9060602@sympatico.ca> <3FB7EFC5.90806@rogers.com> <20031117161402.GK25986@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <3FB96D31.5020309@rogers.com> Computer City? Didn't they disappear a couple of years ago? Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Sun, Nov 16, 2003 at 04:44:37PM -0500, James Knott wrote: > >>John McGregor wrote: >> >>>At the consumer level, the plain and simple is that Epson scanners just >>>plain work with Linux and the others are a crap shoot. >> >>The problem with Epson, is that they seem to be scarce, at least at the >>major retailers. > > > Staples caries some, Computer City caries some, many small computer > stores carry them, etc. > > Not hard to find. > > If you are desperate, check the dealer list on the epson web site or buy > from epson direct. :) > > Lennart Sorensen > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 18 00:58:05 2003 From: fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Fraser Campbell) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 19:58:05 -0500 Subject: Openoffice missing Wordperfect format? In-Reply-To: <20031117231600.GA2346-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20031117231600.GA2346@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <200311171958.05396.fraser@wehave.net> On November 17, 2003 06:16 pm, William Park wrote: > I just installed OpenOffice-1.1, and I noticed that it doesn't give me > Wordperfect format when I try to open a file. Do I have to download > a separate file? I'm pretty sure that the wordperfect filter a feature in Staroffice but not in Openoffice ... IWO you gotta buy it if you need it. -- Fraser Campbell http://www.wehave.net/ Georgetown, Ontario, Canada Debian GNU/Linux -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 18 00:59:36 2003 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 19:59:36 -0500 Subject: Openoffice missing Wordperfect format? In-Reply-To: <20031117231600.GA2346-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20031117231600.GA2346@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <3FB96EF8.8010206@rogers.com> William Park wrote: > I just installed OpenOffice-1.1, and I noticed that it doesn't give me > Wordperfect format when I try to open a file. Do I have to download > a separate file? > I read somewhere that it's only available with Star Office. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 18 01:00:55 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 20:00:55 -0500 Subject: More MS Anti-Trust Goodies Message-ID: <20031117200055.284c4e54.joehill@sympatico.ca> As usual, Europe will probably be tougher on the corporate criminal than the U.S. " In Europe, things look a bit more serious for Microsoft. The European Commission has decided that Microsoft's conduct has violated EU anti-trust law and that they should 1) change that conduct and 2) be punished for past transgressions." I especially like this part: " The server market is one where MS has big aspirations, but not a big market share. An order to open the APIs would be a setback, but not a decisive one. Its different with Media Player. That has taken on a much greater importance for MS in the three years since the EU started this case. Here's the problem. Microsoft has grown too big for the markets it dominates. Where's the growth in OS revenues going to come from in 5 years? They can't double their market share. Same goes for Office. MS needs new markets and needs them desperately. That's why they've thrown money at cable, phones, game consoles, and anything else they can think of. I don't think they have a grand and detailed plan for global domination. I think they know what way they want to go and they keep trying things. Then they reinforce success. When they launched Media Player, it wasn't that important in the grand scheme. But of all the non OS, non Office possibilities, NGSCB (Trusted Computing) looks like the best bet right now. By hooking up the player, DRM, MS file formats and a secure OS, Microsoft opens some vast new markets. Look at it this way, Apple may be the legal music download champ today. But if MS has anything to do with it, they will own that market in five years. And they need the player to do that. Each part of the puzzle is critical and reinforces the other parts. MS file formats and hardware Ids mean it would be hard to get around DRM. A secure OS tied to the hardware makes it hard to get around restrictive file formats. Strong DRM is what Hollywood wants to hear about. And the player wraps the whole thing up and puts it in the user's lap. They can do all this without the player, but its a lot more difficult. Especially the Hollywood-DRM part. The studios have failed to get compulsory DRM tied to hardware through lawyers, lobbying or laws. But if MS can pull this off, they'll be able to give the studios exactly what they want. In substance if not in name. What would that be worth?" Death to DRM! Link: http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=5144&page=2 -- JoeHill Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "Well, he might as well have been bombing Denmark." -- Gore Vidal, on the bombing of Afghanistan after 9/11 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jschaap-zC6tqtfhjqE at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 18 01:33:32 2003 From: jschaap-zC6tqtfhjqE at public.gmane.org (J. Schaap) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 20:33:32 -0500 Subject: Openoffice missing Wordperfect format? In-Reply-To: <20031117231600.GA2346-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20031117231600.GA2346@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <1069119211.2341.10.camel@lnx2.bobach.org> On Mon, 2003-11-17 at 18:16, William Park wrote: > I just installed OpenOffice-1.1, and I noticed that it doesn't give me > Wordperfect format when I try to open a file. Do I have to download > a separate file? There is a tool wpd2sxw to convert from wp to sxw. Mandrake 9.2 under contrib has pre-compiled rpms Tarballs and RedHat rpms at http://libwpd.sourceforge.net/download.html -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From wooik-sIZ5AmKAnwVWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 18 02:15:21 2003 From: wooik-sIZ5AmKAnwVWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (WK) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 21:15:21 -0500 Subject: www interface to samba In-Reply-To: <2283.216.138.194.32.1069115324.squirrel-16UnNR4aCrhlws70yGkXPA@public.gmane.org> References: <65B7B304AA3DE147BBD33938FE204E284A9460@lynchmail.lynch.msft> <3FB9120C.7040503@halfmind.com> <2058.216.138.194.32.1069101032.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> <3FB93962.6040408@halfmind.com> <2283.216.138.194.32.1069115324.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> Message-ID: <3FB980B9.5010601@halfmind.com> Keith Mastin wrote: > I don't think I would use samba in this instance. Samba from within the > internal office networks yes, but I wouldn't offer those machines up to > the h4x0r gods unless I had a good reason to. And yeah, I've found that > WinSCP has it's downsides too, so you're looking for a better solution. > > I have a setup that allows remote file access through ftp, using a few > different programs. Samba runs on the internal network, with all shared > files stored only on the samba server. Check samba3, it has some > improvements over the 2x series. The samba shares are accessed over the > Internet via vsftpd. > > Authentication is 100% pam with mod_auth_pam. Users can login into the > share by clicking a network share icon on the desktop at work or using the > ftp address or clicking a link on the webpage from home. They can also > change their password from the website, and are requested to frequently. > I'm running openssl-enabled apache-1.3.28. > > Not exactly as slick as samba, but it has advantages: > -only the one computer is actually accessed from the web > -vsftpd makes sure that the share is chrooted > -abuse of shares by loading p0rn or other crap is easily kiboshed > -username and password pairs for web access need not be the same as the > smbpasswd info, and are accessed via openssl in any event > -I can add certain users and allow or disallow file uploads or downloads > by group or user > -by messing with the default file permissions I can personally inspect > uploaded files before they're available for downloading > > Another solution I use is PostNuke. There are modules for filesharing > among about a kazzillion other modules that can give your site a lot of > virtual office capabilities. It's also worth looking into. > > HTH > I'll take a look at samba3, specifically the vsftpd. Thanks for the info. wooi. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From anton-F0u+EriZ6ihBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 18 02:21:41 2003 From: anton-F0u+EriZ6ihBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Anton Markov) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 21:21:41 -0500 Subject: What to do with kernel panics? Message-ID: <3FB98235.3030803@truxtar.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Hello everyone, I have been getting some kernel panics lately that completely crash my computer. I have only been able to capture two crash dumps (one from the system log, another as a photo of the monitor); the other dumps seem to get lost. I would just like to know how I should go about reporting/debugging/fixing; I don't even know where to submit a bug report for this type of stuff. I attached the dump I could capture. The 2nd one is at ~From what I understand, both are NULL pointer dereferences that happen (or fail) in the same kernel function, but get called by different programs. The first crash happened while I was surfing the net in Mozilla Firebird. I wasn't actually doing anything, just reading a page. There was a short period of HD activity after which the computer froze. The second crash occurred just after I turned on the computer. The text-based login prompt flashed briefly into view and then the crash dump was printed. This is nothing really urgent, as this is my home machine, but the crashes seem to become more frequent (almost every day) and I am starting to get annoyed. Any pointers on dealing with this will be greatly appreciated. Specs: Redhat 9 with latest updates on Intel P4 2.4GHz w 512MB RAM & 80GB IDE HD Kernel: Generic Redhat i686 2.4.20-20.9 - -- Anton Markov <("anton" + "@" + "truxtar" + "." + "com")> GnuPGP Key fingerprint = 5546 A6E2 1FFB 9BB8 15C3 CE34 46B7 8D93 3AD1 44B4 ~ "The difference between insanity and genius is measured only by success." ~ - Some bad guy from 007 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQE/uYI0RreNkzrRRLQRAgn1AJ9p9AKdIlQkh54y6bLTx6VvSuTcwgCffWIE 6hRO3DJH6JHQto2xixndyeM= =sASo -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -------------- next part -------------- An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: core_crash.txt URL: From john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 18 02:36:34 2003 From: john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (John Moniz) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 21:36:34 -0500 Subject: Linux Scanners In-Reply-To: <3FB90408.3050808-HFI606nGbY9eoWH0uzbU5w@public.gmane.org> References: <3FB7E443.1040509@sympatico.ca> <3FB90408.3050808@oeone.net> Message-ID: <3FB985B2.8020705@sympatico.ca> Gary Walsh wrote: > Speaking of scanners, I would like to recommend Vuescan > (http://www.hamrick.com/vsm.html). Although it is non-free software, > it is the only way I could get my Canon film scanner to work on Linux > and is high quality with a lot of options. Vuescan software is > available for Linux, Windows and Mac OSX. Could I ask what film scanner you have? It's another option for me and I had been looking at them also. John. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From kcozens-qazKcTl6WRFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 18 04:18:01 2003 From: kcozens-qazKcTl6WRFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Kevin Cozens) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 23:18:01 -0500 Subject: Openoffice missing Wordperfect format? In-Reply-To: <20031117231600.GA2346-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20031117231600.GA2346@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20031117231604.02028240@mail.interlog.com> At 06:16 PM 11/17/2003 -0500, you wrote: >I just installed OpenOffice-1.1, and I noticed that it doesn't give me >Wordperfect format when I try to open a file. Do I have to download >a separate file? I also want WP support in OO. It is on their TODO list. There has been some work started on it (IIRC) but nothing is publicly available yet. We will just have to wait. Cheers! Kevin. (http://www.interlog.com/~kcozens/) Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172 |"What are we going to do today, Borg?" E-mail:kcozens at interlog dot com|"Same thing we always do, Pinkutus: Packet:ve3syb-XXPEJ3/fxIc at public.gmane.org#con.on.ca.na| Try to assimilate the world!" #include | -Pinkutus & the Borg -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From blanco-S8qYAnHmZTt34ZA5RureAJ4VBq8PJc8F at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 18 05:20:16 2003 From: blanco-S8qYAnHmZTt34ZA5RureAJ4VBq8PJc8F at public.gmane.org (Max Blanco) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 00:20:16 -0500 (EST) Subject: Apple Color Plus 14" + XFree86 help needed In-Reply-To: <20031117155658.GI25986-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20031117155658.GI25986@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: Hi Lennart, On Mon, 17 Nov 2003, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Fri, Nov 14, 2003 at 06:28:52PM -0500, Max Blanco wrote: > > Well perhaps the mode you want is the one called 640x480-etNlbFTGNQQ at public.gmane.org > > Vertical sync of 66-67 hz and horizontal of 34-36khz. Yes, I think that's the one but... (BTW my config file is set for 35, but it won't let me add "kHz" or "Hz"??) > Perhaps setting your 'Modes' to "640x480-etNlbFTGNQQ at public.gmane.org" will make it work. I > think most video cards have that as a default mode in XFree86. The default modes my card goes through do not have any "@67Hz", they just have "HHHxVVV". It does go through 4 (different?) "640x480" modes (I can't tell from the log file), but they all "hsync out of range", and I can't figure that out: surely the card is able to hsync that low. > As long as you tell it the range for vertical and horizontal just big > enough that it will catch the mode you are asking for, it should work. I don't know the syntax of XF86Config files at all well. Do I put that "Modes" into my "Screen" section, or my "Monitor" section, or do I have to put a UseModes "Custom Modes" + Section "Modes" into my file? I'm so close I can almost taste this... TIA, max. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From blanco-S8qYAnHmZTt34ZA5RureAJ4VBq8PJc8F at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 18 05:27:04 2003 From: blanco-S8qYAnHmZTt34ZA5RureAJ4VBq8PJc8F at public.gmane.org (Max Blanco) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 00:27:04 -0500 (EST) Subject: Linux Scanners In-Reply-To: <20031117161225.GJ25986-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20031117161225.GJ25986@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Nov 2003, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Sun, Nov 16, 2003 at 03:55:31PM -0500, John Moniz wrote: > > I'm intending on treating myself to a scanner soon, but one that is good > > for photo/film/slide scanning. I'd like to pick a brand that is very > > Linux friendly, not just a model that is on the USB list. Which company > > would be good to support? Is Epson as good with scanners as it is with > > printers? I had a look at an Epson Perfection 1670 Photo scanner that > > might fit my requirements, although it looks almost too inexpensive. Is > > Canon still a PITA? Any scanner suggestions would be welcome? > > I haven't read or heard anything about brands other than Epson ever just > working. Epson has the advantage that they make their own scanners and > hence can use the same command set in all of them, which they document > and let developers get at. I think all other scanner companies mostly > just rebrand scanners form a few makers. One place on the Sane site I > saw the comment that if it is Epson, it will work, if not now, within > a few weeks or months. I explored the HPScanJet language with the scsi interface and some low level driver code a while ago for my HPScanJet II. It was a breeze to use, and you could ask the scanner for commands it recognized. Granted, that's a 15 year old scanner. Don't make /em lke they used to, I spose. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From teddymills-VFlxZYho3OA at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 18 07:46:18 2003 From: teddymills-VFlxZYho3OA at public.gmane.org (Teddy Mills) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 02:46:18 -0500 Subject: Strange how sending mail out via a email client works, but SquirrelMail gets the CNAME error Message-ID: <000b01c3ada8$10faf8e0$0301a8c0@amazon> After being attacked by someone in Asia I had to increase security. Permissions, passwords, accounts, iptables everything. system-wide. Now everything still works ok, but i cannot send mail out via SquirrelMail. I enabled only ports 22,25,53,80,110,143 and disabled all other ports, pings and other /proc kernel variables. I think its DNS related since I cannot do a dig or nslookup of any remote domains. I get a CNAME lookup error in my logs. However internet works fine, browsing etc. If this gets to the TLUG list, then i know my smtp out is okay, but SquirrelMail is still messed up. **************************************************************************** *********************************** Strange how sending mail out via a email client works, but SquirrelMail gets the CNAME error. SquirrelMail is sending out on 143 IMAPS and was working correctly before the iptables changes. **************************************************************************** *********************************** I'll post the firewall iptables file after i edit it. --------------------------------------------------------------- teddy mills http://www.vger.ca Mad Magazine VGER directives... To collect...all that is collectable. To sell...all that is saleable.To merchandise...all that is merchandisable. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From teddymills-VFlxZYho3OA at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 18 07:57:29 2003 From: teddymills-VFlxZYho3OA at public.gmane.org (Teddy Mills) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 02:57:29 -0500 Subject: Strange how sending mail out via a email client works, but SquirrelMail gets the CNAME error References: <000b01c3ada8$10faf8e0$0301a8c0@amazon> Message-ID: <002801c3ada9$a0def370$0301a8c0@amazon> Doh!!!! The reason the email client mail and this message got to TLUG was I was sending it on a different email account and server!! (teddymills-VFlxZYho3OA at public.gmane.org) Of course it worked. As for my qmail, I can send/recieve mail locally on that system, and recieve any email from anyone else, but sending any remote mail on my qmail, thats when the mail stays i nthe queue and smtp bails on me. This was working before the iptable changes. Will post the iptables file tommorow... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Teddy Mills" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2003 2:46 AM Subject: [TLUG]: Strange how sending mail out via a email client works, but SquirrelMail gets the CNAME error > After being attacked by someone in Asia I had to increase security. > Permissions, passwords, accounts, iptables everything. system-wide. > > Now everything still works ok, but i cannot send mail out via SquirrelMail. > I enabled only ports 22,25,53,80,110,143 and disabled all other ports, pings > and > other /proc kernel variables. > > I think its DNS related since I cannot do a dig or nslookup of any remote > domains. > I get a CNAME lookup error in my logs. > > However internet works fine, browsing etc. > > If this gets to the TLUG list, then i know my smtp out is okay, but > SquirrelMail is still messed up. > > **************************************************************************** > *********************************** > Strange how sending mail out via a email client works, but SquirrelMail gets > the CNAME error. > SquirrelMail is sending out on 143 IMAPS and was working correctly before > the iptables changes. > **************************************************************************** > *********************************** > > I'll post the firewall iptables file after i edit it. > > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > teddy mills > http://www.vger.ca > > Mad Magazine VGER directives... > To collect...all that is collectable. To sell...all that is saleable.To > merchandise...all that is merchandisable. > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From teddymills-VFlxZYho3OA at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 18 08:07:42 2003 From: teddymills-VFlxZYho3OA at public.gmane.org (Teddy Mills) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 03:07:42 -0500 Subject: if iptables rules drop that packet, will they be displayed in tcpdump Message-ID: <003401c3adab$0e227d20$0301a8c0@amazon> if iptables rules drop that packet, will they be displayed in tcpdump? Im guessing no, since they packets dont even get in the front door. I guess my alternatives are to disable the rules and then use tcpdump, or use the LOG functions in iptables...Probably easier to just temporarily disable the offending iptables rules. Im really wary of security now. Like paranoid. --------------------------------------------------------------- teddy mills http://www.vger.ca Mad Magazine VGER directives... To collect...all that is collectable. To sell...all that is saleable.To merchandise...all that is merchandisable. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From bonnie-grKYUO1WUpSaMJb+Lgu22Q at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 18 14:52:46 2003 From: bonnie-grKYUO1WUpSaMJb+Lgu22Q at public.gmane.org (misterbonnie) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 08:52:46 -0600 (CST) Subject: requesting interrupt on 7 Message-ID: 4 immedi8 release: REQUESTING INTERRUPT ON 7 IRQ7::WED NOV 19 2003 DOOR @ 9 FUNHAUS 536 QUEEN STREET WEST $5 sound===> ghettocyb.org ~ cyborg data jockey jimi lamort mentalfloss visuals==========> Dr.Rx o/~ WLAN PARTY INTERNET RELAY CHAT MAME station hacked arcade cabinet <3 <3 art, ascii porn, 8bit gamez, ***802.11b wireless network *** IRQ7>>>>>>>> <<<<< 4THEL865535 & NERDS OF ALL DISCLIPLINES site: http://asciipr0n.com/irq/ mailing list: http://misterbonnie.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/irq/ # btw loox rite in a fixed width font! BCNU -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From bonnie-grKYUO1WUpSaMJb+Lgu22Q at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 18 14:55:23 2003 From: bonnie-grKYUO1WUpSaMJb+Lgu22Q at public.gmane.org (misterbonnie) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 08:55:23 -0600 (CST) Subject: requesting interrupt on 7 (fwd) Message-ID: FUNHAUS 526 QUEEN STREET WEST >_< -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From kmastin-PzQIwG9Jn9VAFePFGvp55w at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 18 16:55:27 2003 From: kmastin-PzQIwG9Jn9VAFePFGvp55w at public.gmane.org (Keith Mastin) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 11:55:27 -0500 (EST) Subject: if iptables rules drop that packet, will they be displayed in tcpdump In-Reply-To: <003401c3adab$0e227d20$0301a8c0-vAnPq90cUBg@public.gmane.org> References: <003401c3adab$0e227d20$0301a8c0@amazon> Message-ID: <1114.216.138.194.32.1069174527.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> > if iptables rules drop that packet, will they be displayed in tcpdump? > Im guessing no, since they packets dont even get in the front door. > > I guess my alternatives are to disable the rules and then use tcpdump, or > use the LOG functions in iptables...Probably easier to just temporarily > disable the offending iptables rules. > > Im really wary of security now. Like paranoid. If 1) security is a condiseration; and 2) you want to see the traffic your firewall is battered with; and 3) you don't want to disable your packet filter; then put a machine running snort outside the firewall. -- Keith -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From teddymills-VFlxZYho3OA at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 18 17:30:46 2003 From: teddymills-VFlxZYho3OA at public.gmane.org (Teddy Mills) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 12:30:46 -0500 Subject: Probes References: <003401c3adab$0e227d20$0301a8c0@amazon> <1114.216.138.194.32.1069174527.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> Message-ID: <001501c3adf9$b6bbf8a0$0301a8c0@amazon> I got the idea. a box that has zero services and only a few utilities like snort, tcpdump and a few other diagnostic tools before the firewall. Is there already distros that do this? Are these things called "pawns" or "sacrifical hosts" TNG "probes" or something? I got Smoothwall, maybe I'll just disable all the services of Smoothwall and use that. Otherwise I'll have to make one up. Make it so! Keith says... > If 1) security is a condsideration; and 2) you want to see the traffic your > firewall is battered with; and 3) you don't want to disable your packet > filter; then put a machine running snort outside the firewall. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Keith Mastin" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2003 11:55 AM Subject: Re: [TLUG]: if iptables rules drop that packet, will they be displayed in tcpdump > > > if iptables rules drop that packet, will they be displayed in tcpdump? > > Im guessing no, since they packets dont even get in the front door. > > > > I guess my alternatives are to disable the rules and then use tcpdump, or > > use the LOG functions in iptables...Probably easier to just temporarily > > disable the offending iptables rules. > > > > Im really wary of security now. Like paranoid. > > If 1) security is a condiseration; and 2) you want to see the traffic your > firewall is battered with; and 3) you don't want to disable your packet > filter; then put a machine running snort outside the firewall. > > -- > Keith > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From kmastin-PzQIwG9Jn9VAFePFGvp55w at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 18 17:37:31 2003 From: kmastin-PzQIwG9Jn9VAFePFGvp55w at public.gmane.org (Keith Mastin) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 12:37:31 -0500 (EST) Subject: Probes In-Reply-To: <001501c3adf9$b6bbf8a0$0301a8c0-vAnPq90cUBg@public.gmane.org> References: <003401c3adab$0e227d20$0301a8c0@amazon> <1114.216.138.194.32.1069174527.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> <001501c3adf9$b6bbf8a0$0301a8c0@amazon> Message-ID: <1171.216.138.194.32.1069177051.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> > I got the idea. a box that has zero services and only a few utilities > like snort, tcpdump and a few other diagnostic tools before the > firewall. Even that's almost too general. Snort requires that your NIC is set in promiscious mode, so it's not a good idea to run anything on the same box. > Is there already distros that do this? Are these things called "pawns" or > "sacrifical hosts" TNG "probes" or something? I got Smoothwall, maybe > I'll just disable all the services of Smoothwall and use that. AFAIK there are no distro's ready to roll for this. What I would suggest for you is to just put portsentry, hostsentry and logwatch on the firewall system and let them do their stuff. Together they do pretty good as tattle-tales, and you get to keep your extra boxen for other toys. Button down the box with tripwire just to keep an eye on the executables, and you should be reasonably safe and secure (without running things like netmeeting or kazaa, that is). Basically all you're doing here is hardening and adding some monitoring capability to your firewall. If you really want some good ideas on security do yourself a favor and get a copy of Hacking Linux Exposed. It will give you a lot of information on hardening your systems against comon backdoors and vulnerabilities and tightening your machine(s) against the more common garden variety of intruder attacks. It's not the 'end-all,be-all' of linux-based security, but it's a great start. Sacrificial hosts are generally setup within the internal network as bait. They're a completely different story. All we're looking at so far is a network traffic monitor, and if, like I suggested, if it is set up outside the network, will be a very busy little box just on that task alone. You will see everything that hits your EXT_IFACE with snort, including everything not addressed for you. It is a LOT of traffic. HTH, Good luck with it. > Otherwise I'll have to make one up. > Make it so! > > > Keith says... >> If 1) security is a condsideration; and 2) you want to see the traffic >> your firewall is battered with; and 3) you don't want to disable your >> packet filter; then put a machine running snort outside the firewall. >> >> > if iptables rules drop that packet, will they be displayed in >> > tcpdump? >> > Im guessing no, since they packets dont even get in the front door. >> > >> > I guess my alternatives are to disable the rules and then use tcpdump, >> > or use the LOG functions in iptables...Probably easier to just >> > temporarily disable the offending iptables rules. >> > >> > Im really wary of security now. Like paranoid. >> >> If 1) security is a condiseration; and 2) you want to see the traffic >> your firewall is battered with; and 3) you don't want to disable your >> packet filter; then put a machine running snort outside the firewall. -- Keith -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From tlug-9a/WvBvX2Qpg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 18 19:15:29 2003 From: tlug-9a/WvBvX2Qpg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Sergey Kuznetsov) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 14:15:29 -0500 Subject: if iptables rules drop that packet, will they be displayed in tcpdump In-Reply-To: <003401c3adab$0e227d20$0301a8c0-vAnPq90cUBg@public.gmane.org> References: <003401c3adab$0e227d20$0301a8c0@amazon> Message-ID: <200311181415.29942.tlug@deeptown.org> On November 18, 2003 03:07 am, Teddy Mills wrote: > if iptables rules drop that packet, will they be displayed in tcpdump? > Im guessing no, since they packets dont even get in the front door. > Yes, they will be shown. You don't need to disable your firewall rules. For Linux, TAP hookups calling in kernel network layer before actual TCP/IP stack procedures, where iptables hookups calling. In *BSD it calls right in network driver's ISR function ( which is bizzare ). All the Best! Serge. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From tchitow-PkbjNfxxIARBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 18 19:10:25 2003 From: tchitow-PkbjNfxxIARBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Martin Duclos) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 14:10:25 -0500 Subject: Looking for mb + processor 266MHz Message-ID: Hi! Anyone can direct me at a store where I could find used (cheap) hardware? I need a motherboard and a 266Mhz cpu. Mabe someone has something collecting dust in their basement they wouldn't mind throwing away? 8-) Thanks Martin _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 18 19:17:39 2003 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 14:17:39 -0500 Subject: scanners In-Reply-To: <3FB96D31.5020309-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <3FB7EC6E.9060602@sympatico.ca> <3FB7EFC5.90806@rogers.com> <20031117161402.GK25986@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <3FB96D31.5020309@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20031118191739.GB20431@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Nov 17, 2003 at 07:52:01PM -0500, James Knott wrote: > Computer City? Didn't they disappear a couple of years ago? I think I meant compucenter as in the thing that mostly sels games in Malls. :) eah futureshop gobled up Computer City in Canada a little while ago and closed them down. Lennart Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From talexb-SBdzbUvMQDunS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 18 19:21:15 2003 From: talexb-SBdzbUvMQDunS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org (talexb-SBdzbUvMQDunS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 14:21:15 -0500 (EST) Subject: Looking for mb + processor 266MHz In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Martin, I haven't bought any used CPUs from them, but Sonnam Computers (www.sonnam.com) on Spadina just North of College (where else) seems to have quite a collection of old systems. Their slowest systems right now are P2-400Mhz, 128M, 6.4G for $159, and the RAM upgrades look pretty cheap. The last time I was in the store those units were Gateway, a manufacturer I try to avoid -- but that's a personal taste thing. They have 233 to 350MHz systems listed but 'sold out' -- they've been sold out for some time, probably because it's impossible to get systems that slow anymore. On Tue, 18 Nov 2003, Martin Duclos wrote: > Hi! > > Anyone can direct me at a store where I could find used (cheap) hardware? I > need a motherboard and a 266Mhz cpu. Mabe someone has something collecting > dust in their basement they wouldn't mind throwing away? 8-) > > Thanks > > Martin > > _________________________________________________________________ > Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online > http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 18 19:21:27 2003 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 14:21:27 -0500 Subject: Apple Color Plus 14" + XFree86 help needed In-Reply-To: References: <20031117155658.GI25986@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20031118192127.GC20431@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Nov 18, 2003 at 12:20:16AM -0500, Max Blanco wrote: > On Mon, 17 Nov 2003, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > > > On Fri, Nov 14, 2003 at 06:28:52PM -0500, Max Blanco wrote: > > > > Well perhaps the mode you want is the one called 640x480-etNlbFTGNQQ at public.gmane.org > > > > Vertical sync of 66-67 hz and horizontal of 34-36khz. > > Yes, I think that's the one but... (BTW my config file is set for 35, but > it won't let me add "kHz" or "Hz"??) You don't have to. HorizontalSync is in khz and VertRefresh is in Hz. Just put the numbers you want. > > Perhaps setting your 'Modes' to "640x480-etNlbFTGNQQ at public.gmane.org" will make it work. I > > think most video cards have that as a default mode in XFree86. > > The default modes my card goes through do not have any "@67Hz", they just > have "HHHxVVV". It does go through 4 (different?) "640x480" modes (I > can't tell from the log file), but they all "hsync out of range", and > I can't figure that out: surely the card is able to hsync that low. Hmm, I have seen logs from some nvidia cards and some i810 boards that had a 640x480-etNlbFTGNQQ at public.gmane.org listed. I have not managed to find an actual modeline for that mode though, although if you use a modeline calculator (some are online) you should be able to generate one with the right info I suppose. > > As long as you tell it the range for vertical and horizontal just big > > enough that it will catch the mode you are asking for, it should work. > > I don't know the syntax of XF86Config files at all well. > Do I put that "Modes" into my "Screen" section, or my "Monitor" section, > or do I have to put a UseModes "Custom Modes" + Section "Modes" into my > file? I think it is in the screen section. It should already have a line that says Modes. It should only list 640x480 on your setup if done right. Lennart Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 18 19:22:33 2003 From: henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org (Henry Spencer) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 14:22:33 -0500 (EST) Subject: Looking for mb + processor 266MHz In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Nov 2003, Martin Duclos wrote: > Anyone can direct me at a store where I could find used (cheap) hardware? I > need a motherboard and a 266Mhz cpu. Above All Electronics, on Bloor just W of Markham St. (a block W of Bathurst) is a good place for such things. Henry Spencer henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From nastos-JAjqph6Yjy8fbXvGcxQkLSwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 18 19:31:16 2003 From: nastos-JAjqph6Yjy8fbXvGcxQkLSwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Fred Nastos) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 14:31:16 -0500 Subject: Looking for mb + processor 266MHz In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200311181431.16745.nastos@physics.utoronto.ca> On November 18, 2003 02:21 pm, talexb-SBdzbUvMQDunS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org wrote: > Hi Martin, > > I haven't bought any used CPUs from them, but Sonnam Computers > (www.sonnam.com) on Spadina just North of College (where else) seems to > have quite a collection of old systems. I'd recommend them too, but while you are there, if the systems are too fast (i.e. expensive for your usage) you can go around the corner. On the south side of College St. east of Spadina is a shop that sells used computer books and used hardware. I forget it's name, but you can't miss it. Last time I walked in there it had real cheap PII boards (around $10 or so) and cpus. Cheers > Their slowest systems right now are P2-400Mhz, 128M, 6.4G for $159, and > the RAM upgrades look pretty cheap. The last time I was in the store those > units were Gateway, a manufacturer I try to avoid -- but that's a personal > taste thing. > > They have 233 to 350MHz systems listed but 'sold out' -- they've been sold > out for some time, probably because it's impossible to get systems that > slow anymore. > > On Tue, 18 Nov 2003, Martin Duclos wrote: > > Hi! > > > > Anyone can direct me at a store where I could find used (cheap) hardware? > > I need a motherboard and a 266Mhz cpu. Mabe someone has something > > collecting dust in their basement they wouldn't mind throwing away? 8-) > > > > Thanks > > > > Martin -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From ekgab-PkbjNfxxIARBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 18 19:45:23 2003 From: ekgab-PkbjNfxxIARBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (E K) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 22:45:23 +0300 Subject: system admin contract Message-ID: Hi all, There is a project to set up complete internet service under Linux to be out sourced. If any of you is interested please send me your brief bios, your rates and some of the companies you have provided similar service (as reference). regards, EK _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 18 19:46:55 2003 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 14:46:55 -0500 Subject: Looking for mb + processor 266MHz In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20031118194655.GA934@node1.opengeometry.net> On Tue, Nov 18, 2003 at 02:10:25PM -0500, Martin Duclos wrote: > Hi! > > Anyone can direct me at a store where I could find used (cheap) hardware? I > need a motherboard and a 266Mhz cpu. Mabe someone has something collecting > dust in their basement they wouldn't mind throwing away? 8-) Hmm, I'm told that there is "Computer Fest" on Nov 28-30. It's a flea market for local computer stores, so I'm sure you'll find something there. Or, go through one of those free computer papers. -- William Park, Open Geometry Consulting, Linux solution for data management and processing. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 18 20:05:05 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 15:05:05 -0500 Subject: Open Source alt to MS Access Message-ID: <20031118150505.3d823380.joehill@sympatico.ca> "theKompany.com just recently released version 2.1 of Rekall, a personal, programmable DBMS system for Linux and Windows. Rekall is the only viable alternative to MS Access for Linux. With Rekall you will be able to quickly and easily build database applications using Rekall forms and reports. A full complement of widgets means that applications built in Rekall will be able to have the look and feel of any other application. Rekall applications can be extended in their functionality to perform virtually any task via embedded Python as a scripting language." link: http://www.thekompany.com/press_media/full.php3?Id=242 -- JoeHill Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "In this possibly terminal phase of human existence, democracy and freedom are more than just ideals to be valued - they may be essential to survival...."-- Noam Chomsky -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From IlyaPalagin-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 18 15:24:53 2003 From: IlyaPalagin-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Ilya Palagin) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 15:24:53 +0000 Subject: Interesting coincidence Message-ID: <3FBA39C5.8080804@rogers.com> Hi, I just want to share an interesting coincidence I observed today. I've been calling Bell about long-distance tariffs. Among other things, the Bell operator asked my email address (which is @rogers.com) and sent their digital TV info after the conversation was over. At the same time I received a phone call from Rogers, inquiring about qualitiy of their TV services :-) A coincidence or a local Eshelon at Rogers mail server for effective struggle against rivals? Truth is out there... -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From kris-y6ukv7ArdSHYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 18 20:33:55 2003 From: kris-y6ukv7ArdSHYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Kristofer Coward) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 15:33:55 -0500 Subject: [fw: Apple claims developer's property] Message-ID: <20031118203355.GR745@melon.org> Just because you sometimes use "open source", doesn't mean you're not a shithead. ----- Forwarded message from tOM Trottier ----- From: tOM Trottier To: discuss-gyMb1R/nBgMi283oa2GPJQLNbHufi5vF at public.gmane.org Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 14:11:29 -0500 Subject: [d-HC0uBsqfcHw at public.gmane.org] Apple claims developer's property Apple claims developer's property http://www.thinksecret.com/news/netflixfanatic.html ---- Abacurial Information Management Consultants ---- Tom A. Trottier, President http://abacurial.com 758 Albert St, Ottawa ON Canada K1R 7V8 N45.412 W75.714 +1 613 860-6633 fax:+1 775 307-4133 "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin ----- End forwarded message ----- -- Kristofer Coward http://unripe.melon.org/ GPG Fingerprint: 2BF3 957D 310A FEEC 4733 830E 21A4 05C7 1FEB 12B3 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From blsonne-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 18 21:04:24 2003 From: blsonne-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Byron Sonne) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 16:04:24 -0500 Subject: [fw: Apple claims developer's property] In-Reply-To: <20031118203355.GR745-y6ukv7ArdSHYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <20031118203355.GR745@melon.org> Message-ID: <3FBA8958.7000906@rogers.com> > Just because you sometimes use "open source", doesn't mean you're not a > shithead. I hereby nominate that line for the quote of the year award! -- For good, return good. For evil, return justice. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 18 21:13:10 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 16:13:10 -0500 Subject: Interesting coincidence In-Reply-To: <3FBA39C5.8080804-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <3FBA39C5.8080804@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20031118161310.44914014.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Tue, 18 Nov 2003 15:24:53 +0000 Ilya Palagin wrote: > Hi, I just want to share an interesting coincidence I observed today. > I've been calling Bell about long-distance tariffs. Among other > things, the Bell operator asked my email address (which is > @rogers.com) and sent their digital TV info after the conversation > was over. At the same time I received a phone call from Rogers, > inquiring about qualitiy of their TV services :-) A coincidence or > a local Eshelon at Rogers mail server for effective struggle against > rivals? Truth is out there... Well, it is a known fact that Bell, as well as Rogers, are in league with the Rand Corporation and the American Medical Association, all part of a scheme for world domination. You should have been wearing your tin-foil hat while calling Bell, that's all I have to say. -- JoeHill Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." -- Hunter S. Thompson -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lloyd-fEEwcc3XMu8jODpR/OX0VQ at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 18 21:19:18 2003 From: lloyd-fEEwcc3XMu8jODpR/OX0VQ at public.gmane.org (Lloyd D Budd) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 16:19:18 -0500 Subject: Rekall :: Open Source alt to MS Access In-Reply-To: <20031118150505.3d823380.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <20031118150505.3d823380.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <1069190358.16484.257.camel@localhost> The relevent site for non-commercial use is: http://www.rekallrevealed.org/ On Tue, 2003-11-18 at 15:05, JoeHill wrote: > "theKompany.com just recently released version 2.1 of Rekall, a > personal, programmable DBMS system for Linux and Windows. Rekall is the > only viable alternative to MS Access for Linux. With Rekall you will be > able to quickly and easily build database applications using Rekall > forms and reports. A full complement of widgets means that applications > built in Rekall will be able to have the look and feel of any other > application. Rekall applications can be extended in their functionality > to perform virtually any task via embedded Python as a scripting > language." > > link: > > http://www.thekompany.com/press_media/full.php3?Id=242 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From aitken-BwLjziHGQLusTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Fri Nov 7 17:22:46 2003 From: aitken-BwLjziHGQLusTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Chris Aitken) Date: Fri, 07 Nov 2003 12:22:46 -0500 Subject: anything@somethingelse.whatever References: <5.2.1.1.0.20031117162700.01fe62a0@mail.interlog.com> Message-ID: <3FABD4E6.4CFA0A55@onlink.net> Kevin Cozens wrote: > At 12:27 PM 11/13/2003 -0500, Chris Aitken wrote: > >Does anyone know how to turn off the automatic hyperlinking of > >anything-f52GMkFzgz9UzNJCNVxzr5EluF3sTVYu at public.gmane.org in WordPerfect 8 for linux? > > I had what I believe was a much older version of WP for Linux. Where did > you get a copy of WP 8 for Linux? I was on the CD that came with my Sybex Mastering Linux book. I live in Timmins but I'll be in T.O. in December. I could burn you a copy and give it to you then. Chris -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From aitken-BwLjziHGQLusTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Fri Nov 7 17:30:46 2003 From: aitken-BwLjziHGQLusTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Chris Aitken) Date: Fri, 07 Nov 2003 12:30:46 -0500 Subject: anything@somethingelse.whatever References: <5.2.1.1.0.20031117162700.01fe62a0@mail.interlog.com> Message-ID: <3FABD6C6.1167C50@onlink.net> "Byron Q. Desnoyers Winmill" wrote: > [...] > > The big problem is finding a registration key. AFAIK, Corel doesn't > give them out any more and doesn't sell them any more. (Corel did the > same thing with the Macintosh version.) When I got the activation key I don't remember any restriction on its use. Here are two... LW8XW-Q5rfqQmkhq LW8XW-NFxtkNyxhk Chris -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 18 22:55:48 2003 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 17:55:48 -0500 Subject: Interesting coincidence In-Reply-To: <3FBA39C5.8080804-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <3FBA39C5.8080804@rogers.com> Message-ID: <3FBAA374.6050907@rogers.com> Ilya Palagin wrote: > Hi, I just want to share an interesting coincidence I observed today. > I've been calling Bell about long-distance tariffs. Among other things, > the Bell operator asked my email address (which is @rogers.com) and sent > their digital TV info after the conversation was over. At the same time > I received a phone call from Rogers, inquiring about qualitiy of their > TV services :-) A coincidence or a local Eshelon at Rogers mail server > for effective struggle against rivals? Truth is out there... Where's Rod Serling, when you need him? ;-) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 18 22:58:20 2003 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 17:58:20 -0500 Subject: Looking for mb + processor 266MHz In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3FBAA40C.20000@rogers.com> Martin Duclos wrote: > Hi! > > Anyone can direct me at a store where I could find used (cheap) > hardware? I need a motherboard and a 266Mhz cpu. Mabe someone has > something collecting dust in their basement they wouldn't mind throwing > away? 8-) You may want to try Computer Warehouse on Sheppard or in Brampton. They likely have a complete computer around that speed for $50 - $100. You might also find something at ComputerFest, which is coming up shortly (This week?). -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 18 22:59:16 2003 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 17:59:16 -0500 Subject: scanners In-Reply-To: <20031118191739.GB20431-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <3FB7EC6E.9060602@sympatico.ca> <3FB7EFC5.90806@rogers.com> <20031117161402.GK25986@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <3FB96D31.5020309@rogers.com> <20031118191739.GB20431@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <3FBAA444.3090904@rogers.com> Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Mon, Nov 17, 2003 at 07:52:01PM -0500, James Knott wrote: > >>Computer City? Didn't they disappear a couple of years ago? > > > I think I meant compucenter as in the thing that mostly sels games in > Malls. :) > > eah futureshop gobled up Computer City in Canada a little while ago and > closed them down. I've still got a Computer City card here, should anybody need one. ;-) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From blanco-S8qYAnHmZTt34ZA5RureAJ4VBq8PJc8F at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 18 23:57:03 2003 From: blanco-S8qYAnHmZTt34ZA5RureAJ4VBq8PJc8F at public.gmane.org (Max Blanco) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 18:57:03 -0500 (EST) Subject: sendmail + mutt (debian) setup question Message-ID: Hi All, I have a debian woody ppc system. I intend this to be an offline computer, so nothing fancy. I would like to mail to other users on the same machine. I have mutt and sendmail installed, but so far, I can't send or receive mail. It jst goes into nullspace somewhere. I'm mystified. Any ideas? I'm not particularly tied to either mutt or sendmail, so if some other combination can do the job with no hassle, I'll try it. TIA, max. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lists-Gb8Tj4xcA4YgsBAKwltoeQ at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 19 02:15:01 2003 From: lists-Gb8Tj4xcA4YgsBAKwltoeQ at public.gmane.org (Byron Q. Desnoyers Winmill) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 21:15:01 -0500 (EST) Subject: sendmail + mutt (debian) setup question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: There is always pine. It will send mail through your ISP's SMTP server (ie. you don't need sendmail). It should grab your mail via IMAP and POP3 too (though I use fetchmail and procmail). Byron. On Tue, 18 Nov 2003, Max Blanco wrote: > Any ideas? I'm not particularly tied to either mutt or sendmail, so if > some other combination can do the job with no hassle, I'll try it. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From ken-qoNZw2a/gFtBDLzU/O5InQ at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 19 00:07:06 2003 From: ken-qoNZw2a/gFtBDLzU/O5InQ at public.gmane.org (Ken Heard) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 19:07:06 -0500 Subject: Openoffice missing Wordperfect format? In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20031117231604.02028240-Nf8GSVjHSL5zk1aGpazrEgC/G2K4zDHf@public.gmane.org> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20031117231604.02028240@mail.interlog.com> Message-ID: <3FBAB42A.9040707@heard.name> The OpenOffice website mentions that a "preliminary" version of a WordPerfect filter is now available. The URL is http://sourceforge.net/projects/libwpd/. I have not tried it yet but intend to. Ken Heard -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From tiliescu-ZdyLq7YhDA8hunQcOVOuvCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 19 00:56:08 2003 From: tiliescu-ZdyLq7YhDA8hunQcOVOuvCwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Teodor Iliescu) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 19:56:08 -0500 (EST) Subject: sendmail + mutt (debian) setup question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Nov 2003, Max Blanco wrote: > > Hi All, > > I have a debian woody ppc system. I intend this to be an offline > computer, so nothing fancy. I would like to mail to other users on the > same machine. Check if sendmail is listening on 127.0.0.1 (since you need local delivery only): Try a simple: telnet localhost 25 If sendmail is indeed listening, you should get: Trying 127.0.0.1... Connected to localhost. Escape character is '^]'. 220 localhost.localdomain ESMTP Sendmail 8.12.8/8.12.8; Tue, 18 Nov 2003 19:32:22 -0500 Otherwise, if the service has not been started, you should get: telnet: connect to address 127.0.0.1: Connection refused > I have mutt and sendmail installed, but so far, I can't send or receive > mail. It jst goes into nullspace somewhere. I'm mystified. It does go somewhere. Check the following: a) /var/log/maillog This is the place where you will get information on delivery, queuing and so forth. Do a 'tail -20 /var/log/maillog' b) /var/spool/mqueue This is where your queued mail should be. If you created aliases, check who it is going to under /etc/aliases. If you changed the aliases file, you need to run newaliases. > Any ideas? I'm not particularly tied to either mutt or sendmail, so if > some other combination can do the job with no hassle, I'll try it. > Try running pine if it is available on your system. See if you get any new mail, or simply mail. It could also be a misconfiguration of DNS, although you didn't give enough information. For example if you are sending your e-mail to root-uYAvd8PJE+hBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org, where the FQDN of your box is foohost.com, it could be that you have no such entry in /etc/hosts, nor bind is running. Sendmail would give up, since it would not be able to resolve your host name of foohost.com. I had a similar problem in a lab, where I had sendmail listening on 172.16.1.2 (outside interface), but not on localhost (127.0.0.1). I was obviously not able relay e-mails to outside (172.16.1.x), since when a MUA (mail user agent - such as pine/mutt) tried to send an e-mail it needed to connect to my local MTA (mail transfer agent such as sendmail/postfix) listening on 127.0.0.1, it failed. Post any more results you get to the list, and I am sure we can help you out. :) -- Teodor I. http://penguincomputing.iwarp.com GPG key fingerprint : 9AC8 A05C 78AD AD73 91DB CBE4 B644 F402 FBFD 5927 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From mr6re9-mI4xJ4qlgtBiLUuM0BA3LQ at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 19 00:56:58 2003 From: mr6re9-mI4xJ4qlgtBiLUuM0BA3LQ at public.gmane.org (GDHough) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 19:56:58 -0500 Subject: Probes In-Reply-To: <1171.216.138.194.32.1069177051.squirrel-16UnNR4aCrhlws70yGkXPA@public.gmane.org> References: <003401c3adab$0e227d20$0301a8c0@amazon> <001501c3adf9$b6bbf8a0$0301a8c0@amazon> <1171.216.138.194.32.1069177051.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> Message-ID: <200311181956.58606.mr6re9@execulink.com> On Tuesday 18 November 2003 12:37, Teddy and Keith were discussing: > > I got the idea. a box that has zero services and only a few utilities > > like snort, tcpdump and a few other diagnostic tools before the > > firewall. > > Even that's almost too general. Snort requires that your NIC is set in > promiscious mode, so it's not a good idea to run anything on the same box. Snort does not sniff in promiscious mode with the option -p. As for running other services on the same box, I know you're right but I do it anyway. > > > Is there already distros that do this? Are these things called "pawns" or > > "sacrifical hosts" TNG "probes" or something? I got Smoothwall, maybe > > I'll just disable all the services of Smoothwall and use that. > > AFAIK there are no distro's ready to roll for this. What I would suggest > for you is to just put portsentry, hostsentry and logwatch on the firewall > system and let them do their stuff. Together they do pretty good as > tattle-tales, and you get to keep your extra boxen for other toys. Button > down the box with tripwire just to keep an eye on the executables, and you > should be reasonably safe and secure (without running things like > netmeeting or kazaa, that is). Basically all you're doing here is > hardening and adding some monitoring capability to your firewall. > Be sure to disable portsentry's interactive mode and it's cron cycle if you're not familiar with it. You may be left with no iptables running if you have some custom targets in your startup scripts. > If you really want some good ideas on security do yourself a favor and get > a copy of Hacking Linux Exposed. It will give you a lot of information on > hardening your systems against comon backdoors and vulnerabilities and > tightening your machine(s) against the more common garden variety of > intruder attacks. It's not the 'end-all,be-all' of linux-based security, > but it's a great start. > > Sacrificial hosts are generally setup within the internal network as bait. Our Win98 box does that by default. > They're a completely different story. All we're looking at so far is a > network traffic monitor, and if, like I suggested, if it is set up outside > the network, will be a very busy little box just on that task alone. You > will see everything that hits your EXT_IFACE with snort, including > everything not addressed for you. It is a LOT of traffic. No doubt about that. I run snort strictly on the internal gateway IF. I am not overly concerned with what's being dropped outside. I am more interested in what the traffic within smells like. Activate all of snorts rules (policy, info, virus, chat and porn disabled by default) and you'll have plenty of alerts to analyze. Now about the sacrificial lamb, any box on the net is vulnerable. If all you got is a Linux NAT box with an IP and one WinBox behind it for the kids to browse, how are you going to learn anything about the power of Linux without loading it up into a fully fledged multitasking environment? That was me three years ago. That box still holds the IP and the gateway for the network I ran two snort daemons (INT & EXT) for a long time without any troubles. The stuff that gets through and flagged will generate double alerts though. The latest Snort-ACID-MySql combo is neat. The rulesets have matured. There are many to choose from above and beyond the defaults and you can write your own. My personal record for my first Linux NAT firewall box is: 1) Load, update and config all services (installation disc choose >> install everything) 2) Bastille 3) Tripwire 4) Snort/ACID/MySql 5) Fire up all the services 6) Add more and run them too 7) Keep doing this until the machine reaches it's limit then back off 1/4 turn. 8) Attempt to maintain that level of service with regular monitoring and updates. 9) Go for 180 days without a reboot 10) Start from scratch if you can no longer compile and patch your installed packages or RedHat throws a wrench in your werks. farmer6re9 > > HTH, > > Good luck with it. > > > Otherwise I'll have to make one up. > > Make it so! > > > > > > Keith says... > > > >> If 1) security is a condsideration; and 2) you want to see the traffic > >> your firewall is battered with; and 3) you don't want to disable your > >> packet filter; then put a machine running snort outside the firewall. > >> > >> > if iptables rules drop that packet, will they be displayed in > >> > tcpdump? > >> > Im guessing no, since they packets dont even get in the front door. > >> > > >> > I guess my alternatives are to disable the rules and then use tcpdump, > >> > or use the LOG functions in iptables...Probably easier to just > >> > temporarily disable the offending iptables rules. > >> > > >> > Im really wary of security now. Like paranoid. > >> > >> If 1) security is a condiseration; and 2) you want to see the traffic > >> your firewall is battered with; and 3) you don't want to disable your > >> packet filter; then put a machine running snort outside the firewall. -- Eating Crow is better with MyCrowSauce -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From mr6re9-mI4xJ4qlgtBiLUuM0BA3LQ at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 19 01:51:40 2003 From: mr6re9-mI4xJ4qlgtBiLUuM0BA3LQ at public.gmane.org (GDHough) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 20:51:40 -0500 Subject: Interesting coincidence In-Reply-To: <3FBA39C5.8080804-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <3FBA39C5.8080804@rogers.com> Message-ID: <200311182051.40542.mr6re9@execulink.com> On Tuesday 18 November 2003 10:24, Ilya Palagin wrote: > Hi, I just want to share an interesting coincidence I observed today. > I've been calling Bell about long-distance tariffs. Among other things, > the Bell operator asked my email address (which is @rogers.com) and sent > their digital TV info after the conversation was over. At the same time > I received a phone call from Rogers, inquiring about qualitiy of their > TV services :-) A coincidence or a local Eshelon at Rogers mail server > for effective struggle against rivals? Truth is out there... > Coincidence is God's way of remaining anonymous. What you experienced is probably just that. But it's also true that in these times, nothing is sacred. Heck, even my own ISP serves content for KaZaA users (ssa.kazaa.com) and many web servers are using javascript URL spoofing to read other domains cookies. Spy cookies and adware are just part of cyber life now. Fortunately for us, we control our Linux machines. It is in this realm where we can still have the highest level of privacy money can't buy. Imagine what it would be like being forced to use Windows for evertything, like having no choice in Cable TV, Local/Long distance provider, Hydro, Gas....oops bad analogy...anyway you get the picture. PS--A simple IDS like Snort can sniff for strings like "Get New Digital TV Service Now and SAVE 30% OFF the Annual Prescription Rate." All it would take is a couple staffers siting at the console, each with his/her own sensor and rulesets, watching as the screen refreshes with new alerts every 60 seconds. Not too hard to imagine...might be 'Busines as Usual' these days. May even be 'Commissioned'. farmer6re9 -- Eating Crow is better with MyCrowSauce -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From blanco-S8qYAnHmZTt34ZA5RureAJ4VBq8PJc8F at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 19 02:03:59 2003 From: blanco-S8qYAnHmZTt34ZA5RureAJ4VBq8PJc8F at public.gmane.org (Max Blanco) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 21:03:59 -0500 (EST) Subject: sendmail + mutt (debian) setup question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Teodor/Byron/All, I tried and failed to compile pine4.58 on my ppc box. The compiler threw some errors like this ppc differs from standard linux in one or two headers. Obviously, if you send a pointer somewhere it shouldn't be, you get a segmentation fault... which is what I got. > Check if sendmail is listening on 127.0.0.1 (since you need local delivery > only): > > Try a simple: > > telnet localhost 25 > > If sendmail is indeed listening, you should get: > > Trying 127.0.0.1... > Connected to localhost. > Escape character is '^]'. > 220 localhost.localdomain ESMTP Sendmail 8.12.8/8.12.8; Tue, 18 Nov 2003 19:32:22 -0500 This worked. How do I get it to identify itself? Connected to localhost.localdomain Escape character is '^]'. 220 johannes ESMTP > It does go somewhere. Check the following: > > a) /var/log/maillog > This is the place where you will get information on delivery, queuing and > so forth. Do a 'tail -20 /var/log/maillog' Hmmm... I see lots of "courierd" and "courierlocal" stuff. It can't find "maildir.open". Why are there so many MTAs? What is the easiest one to setup? Looks like I have had exim once upon a time... Plus sendmail is in /usr/bin. Sheesh. > b) /var/spool/mqueue > This is where your queued mail should be. That directory does not exist. /var/mail does exist. /var/spool/mail does too. Unfortunately, both are empty. > If you created aliases, check who it is going to under /etc/aliases. > If you changed the aliases file, you need to run newaliases. I never touched this file. All accounts are piped to root. > > Any ideas? I'm not particularly tied to either mutt or sendmail, so if > > some other combination can do the job with no hassle, I'll try it. I'd like to clean up my mail and remove any trace of additional MTAs, but first I need to know which MTA I will use. TIA, max. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lists-Gb8Tj4xcA4YgsBAKwltoeQ at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 19 04:33:54 2003 From: lists-Gb8Tj4xcA4YgsBAKwltoeQ at public.gmane.org (Byron Q. Desnoyers Winmill) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 23:33:54 -0500 (EST) Subject: sendmail + mutt (debian) setup question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I had to disable debugging: ./build DEBUG=-g lnp The newreader part is flaking out on me, but everything else appears to be fine. (Fortunately, I shouldn't be wasting my time on usenet.) Byron. On Tue, 18 Nov 2003, Max Blanco wrote: > I tried and failed to compile pine4.58 on my ppc box. The compiler threw > some errors like this ppc differs from standard linux in one or two > headers. Obviously, if you send a pointer somewhere it shouldn't be, you > get a segmentation fault... which is what I got. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 19 02:40:05 2003 From: fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Fraser Campbell) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 21:40:05 -0500 Subject: sendmail + mutt (debian) setup question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200311182140.05447.fraser@wehave.net> On November 18, 2003 06:57 pm, Max Blanco wrote: > I have mutt and sendmail installed, but so far, I can't send or receive > mail. It jst goes into nullspace somewhere. I'm mystified. Where does it go? Try: echo test | mail max That should send an email to the user max on your machine. Check: - does the mail command complain (then sendmail is probably very screwed up) - check the maillog (tail -f /var/log/mail.info), what does it say? > Any ideas? I'm not particularly tied to either mutt or sendmail, so if > some other combination can do the job with no hassle, I'll try it. No ideas without more information. FWIW I much prefer postfix and the debian postfix package offers some pretty easy to follow dialogs when you install it that should get it working just fine. Still I'd rather see you figure out the issue first since it may not be related to sendmail at all. -- Fraser Campbell http://www.wehave.net/ Georgetown, Ontario, Canada Debian GNU/Linux -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From melseder-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 19 02:52:53 2003 From: melseder-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Mel Seder) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 18:52:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: Mozilla 1.4.1 functionality Message-ID: <20031119025253.34608.qmail@web40709.mail.yahoo.com> I'd like to play movies and mp3's using Fedora Core 1. I have flash going and Java but still want movies and mp3's. Can anyone suggest some programs or plugins and a link to instructions? ===== The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good. -Samuel Johnson, lexicographer (1709-1784) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jzygmont-tEQKYFGiemxAYG7eUwYNkWD2FQJk+8+b at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 19 03:12:59 2003 From: jzygmont-tEQKYFGiemxAYG7eUwYNkWD2FQJk+8+b at public.gmane.org (Justin Zygmont) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 22:12:59 -0500 (EST) Subject: Looking for mb + processor 266MHz In-Reply-To: <20031118194655.GA934-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20031118194655.GA934@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: i'd recommend tor.forsale.computers. You'll probably get a much better deal there. BTW, does anyone have trouble reading newsgroups on rogers, using pine? On Tue, 18 Nov 2003, William Park wrote: > On Tue, Nov 18, 2003 at 02:10:25PM -0500, Martin Duclos wrote: > > Hi! > > > > Anyone can direct me at a store where I could find used (cheap) hardware? I > > need a motherboard and a 266Mhz cpu. Mabe someone has something collecting > > dust in their basement they wouldn't mind throwing away? 8-) > > Hmm, I'm told that there is "Computer Fest" on Nov 28-30. It's a flea > market for local computer stores, so I'm sure you'll find something > there. Or, go through one of those free computer papers. > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From blanco-S8qYAnHmZTt34ZA5RureAJ4VBq8PJc8F at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 19 03:31:17 2003 From: blanco-S8qYAnHmZTt34ZA5RureAJ4VBq8PJc8F at public.gmane.org (Max Blanco) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 22:31:17 -0500 (EST) Subject: pine ./build DEBUG=-g lnp works on ppclinux In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks, Byron... I spent most of two days trying to figure why pine didn't build. Arrgggh! And then you say the magic words, and poof! like magic, it works. 8)))) now I don't have to re-familiarize myself with a new mailreader. On Tue, 18 Nov 2003, Byron Q. Desnoyers Winmill wrote: > I had to disable debugging: > > ./build DEBUG=-g lnp > > The newreader part is flaking out on me, but everything else appears to > be fine. (Fortunately, I shouldn't be wasting my time on usenet.) > > Byron. > > On Tue, 18 Nov 2003, Max Blanco wrote: > > I tried and failed to compile pine4.58 on my ppc box. The compiler threw > > some errors like this ppc differs from standard linux in one or two > > headers. Obviously, if you send a pointer somewhere it shouldn't be, you > > get a segmentation fault... which is what I got. > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From blanco-S8qYAnHmZTt34ZA5RureAJ4VBq8PJc8F at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 19 04:00:19 2003 From: blanco-S8qYAnHmZTt34ZA5RureAJ4VBq8PJc8F at public.gmane.org (Max Blanco) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 23:00:19 -0500 (EST) Subject: sendmail/courier setup, incompatibility with pine In-Reply-To: <200311182140.05447.fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org> References: <200311182140.05447.fraser@wehave.net> Message-ID: Hi Fraser/All, We're getting closer... thanks to Fraser... see below. On Tue, 18 Nov 2003, Fraser Campbell wrote: > Where does it go? > > Try: > > echo test | mail max > > That should send an email to the user max on your machine. Check: OK, I had courier installed, not sendmail. Sendmail was a leftove binary, I think. Anyhow, your test worked. It sets up a file called "~/Maildir" and dumps the text in there, but I did a "pine -F Maildir" and the mail was not in a pine-readable format. > - does the mail command complain (then sendmail is probably very screwed up) > - check the maillog (tail -f /var/log/mail.info), what does it say? I think all's well, except for the "Maildir" incompatibility with pine. Now if only I could fix that... > No ideas without more information. FWIW I much prefer postfix and the debian > postfix package offers some pretty easy to follow dialogs when you install it > that should get it working just fine. Still I'd rather see you figure out > the issue first since it may not be related to sendmail at all. Yeah, I'm too close with my setup as it is, but 2-3 more days of banging my head against a wall, and I'll be trying postfix. cheers, max. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jkls-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 19 04:09:06 2003 From: jkls-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (jkls) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 23:09:06 -0500 Subject: apt-get remove sometimes installs Message-ID: <3FBAECE2.4050708@sympatico.ca> Why does "apt-get remove snort" install 6 library files as well as removing snort? Wouldn't these files either be already there or need to be removed? Thanks LS -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From rfk-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 19 04:24:58 2003 From: rfk-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org (Robert F. Kennedy) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 23:24:58 -0500 Subject: mailing list hosting In-Reply-To: <20031119025253.34608.qmail-/joetn0QaPmA/QwVtaZbd3CJp6faPEW9@public.gmane.org> References: <20031119025253.34608.qmail@web40709.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000101c3ae55$177654f0$1902a8c0@coilnetworks.com> Hello, I am asking this on behalf of a non-profit that I do some volunteer work for. Is there anyone that could host some email lists. I am slowly working on a Mailman - Postfix configuration that I will eventually run out of my own home but the group could really use something sooner :). Thanks, Robert Toronto H. 416-538-3904 C. 647-224-2904 email: rfk at eol.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lists-Gb8Tj4xcA4YgsBAKwltoeQ at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 19 06:46:01 2003 From: lists-Gb8Tj4xcA4YgsBAKwltoeQ at public.gmane.org (Byron Q. Desnoyers Winmill) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 01:46:01 -0500 (EST) Subject: pine ./build DEBUG=-g lnp works on ppclinux In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Great news. I went through the same thing three days ago, so the solution was fresh in my mind. Would you mind trying Pine on usenet? I'm having trouble with it and would like to know if the problem is with me, or my ISP. Not to mention there is another chap who is having trouble with it. (See Mozilla 1.4.1 thread.) Thanks, Byron. On Tue, 18 Nov 2003, Max Blanco wrote: > Thanks, Byron... I spent most of two days trying to figure why pine > didn't build. Arrgggh! And then you say the magic words, and poof! like > magic, it works. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lists-Gb8Tj4xcA4YgsBAKwltoeQ at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 19 06:49:15 2003 From: lists-Gb8Tj4xcA4YgsBAKwltoeQ at public.gmane.org (Byron Q. Desnoyers Winmill) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 01:49:15 -0500 (EST) Subject: Pine and usenet ... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yeap, I'm having trouble. All of the fields are blank for some messages, and trying to view any message will leave me with a blank message. Is that what you are seeing? FWIW, this is on look and with a version of pine which didn't compile properly in the first place (under Linux on the PowerPC). Byron. On Tue, 18 Nov 2003, Justin Zygmont wrote: > BTW, does anyone have trouble reading newsgroups on rogers, using pine? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jzygmont-tEQKYFGiemxAYG7eUwYNkWD2FQJk+8+b at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 19 04:41:39 2003 From: jzygmont-tEQKYFGiemxAYG7eUwYNkWD2FQJk+8+b at public.gmane.org (Justin Zygmont) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 23:41:39 -0500 (EST) Subject: Pine and usenet ... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: ya, that's exactly what i'm getting too. Now Mozilla won't even work for newsgroups. And calling Rogers about it a total waste of time of course, "pine? what's linux?" On Wed, 19 Nov 2003, Byron Q. Desnoyers Winmill wrote: > Yeap, I'm having trouble. All of the fields are blank for some > messages, and trying to view any message will leave me with a blank > message. Is that what you are seeing? > > FWIW, this is on look and with a version of pine which didn't > compile properly in the first place (under Linux on the PowerPC). > > Byron. > > On Tue, 18 Nov 2003, Justin Zygmont wrote: > > BTW, does anyone have trouble reading newsgroups on rogers, using pine? > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 19 05:06:00 2003 From: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 00:06:00 -0500 (EST) Subject: sendmail + mutt (debian) setup question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Nov 2003, Byron Q. Desnoyers Winmill wrote: > I had to disable debugging: > > ./build DEBUG=-g lnp > > The newreader part is flaking out on me, but everything else appears to > be fine. (Fortunately, I shouldn't be wasting my time on usenet.) So if I suggested tin as the world's best newsreader, that'd be bad right? :) I've been using tin for over a decade, it just matures with age ;) Rob -- Robert Brockway B.Sc. email: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org, zzbrock at uqconnect.net Linux counter project ID #16440 (http://counter.li.org) "The earth is but one country and mankind its citizens" -Baha'u'llah -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lists-Gb8Tj4xcA4YgsBAKwltoeQ at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 19 07:43:12 2003 From: lists-Gb8Tj4xcA4YgsBAKwltoeQ at public.gmane.org (Byron Q. Desnoyers Winmill) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 02:43:12 -0500 (EST) Subject: sendmail + mutt (debian) setup question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 19 Nov 2003, Robert Brockway wrote: > So if I suggested tin as the world's best newsreader, that'd be bad > right? :) Oh, I prefer tin and slrn over pine. I also prefer elm and mutt over pine. For the newsreader bit, I shouldn't be spending too much time and pine provides definite discoragement. For the mail bit, I am a heavy user of "roles" and it is easier to use my ISPs SMTP server (seeming as many ISPs block the bloody SMTP port these days, and sending mail through a private SMTP server is liable to snag it in a spam filter). Next up, justifying the use of Microsoft Windows ... ... just kidding! Byron. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From blsonne-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 19 06:30:42 2003 From: blsonne-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Byron Sonne) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 01:30:42 -0500 Subject: sendmail + mutt (debian) setup question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3FBB0E12.9090908@rogers.com> > I've been using tin for over a decade, it just matures with age ;) Rob, I'm gonna put a distro together just for you: nothing but sh, vi, twm, an xterm or two, pine and tin... and a uucp only installer ;) Funny thing is that it would still be friendlier than Ultrix... -- For good, return good. For evil, return justice. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 19 11:03:35 2003 From: fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Fraser Campbell) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 06:03:35 -0500 Subject: sendmail/courier setup, incompatibility with pine In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200311190603.35353.fraser@wehave.net> On November 18, 2003 11:00 pm, Max Blanco wrote: > OK, I had courier installed, not sendmail. Sendmail was a leftove binary, Most (all I think) emails servers provide a sendmail binary for compatibility reasons. > I think. Anyhow, your test worked. It sets up a file called "~/Maildir" > and dumps the text in there, but I did a "pine -F Maildir" and the mail > was not in a pine-readable format. There are different formats formats for mail storage. Maildir storage involves several subdirectories and every email being stored in an individual file. The more traditional mail format is mbox where all email is stored in one file. There are advantages and disadvantages to either storage format. courier and qmail mail servers use Maildir by default, other MTAs are capable of storing in Maildir either directly or through cooperation with procmail. > I think all's well, except for the "Maildir" incompatibility with pine. > > Now if only I could fix that... AFAIK pine needs a patch to be compatible with maildir. Just go back to mutt it's a better mail reader anyway ;-) In /etc/Muttrc there are a few parameters to tweak so that mutt will default to ~/Maildir/ ... mbox_type is one and spool_file (or similar) is another. "man mutt", seach for Maildir, and you should be able to figure it out. You could read the email using IMAP or POP, pine does support that. Seems like overkill though for a locally accessible mail spool. -- Fraser Campbell http://www.wehave.net/ Georgetown, Ontario, Canada Debian GNU/Linux -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From blanco-S8qYAnHmZTt34ZA5RureAJ4VBq8PJc8F at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 19 13:51:53 2003 From: blanco-S8qYAnHmZTt34ZA5RureAJ4VBq8PJc8F at public.gmane.org (Max Blanco) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 08:51:53 -0500 (EST) Subject: pine ./build DEBUG=-g lnp works on ppclinux In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Byron, can you please remind me of this when I have my sendmail problem fixed? Just resend your email next week. I'll be happy to be of service. I guess that'll require me to get a news feed... that'll take another week... 8) cheers, max. On Wed, 19 Nov 2003, Byron Q. Desnoyers Winmill wrote: > Great news. I went through the same thing three days ago, so the > solution was fresh in my mind. > > Would you mind trying Pine on usenet? I'm having trouble with it and > would like to know if the problem is with me, or my ISP. Not to mention > there is another chap who is having trouble with it. (See Mozilla 1.4.1 > thread.) > > Thanks, > Byron. > > On Tue, 18 Nov 2003, Max Blanco wrote: > > Thanks, Byron... I spent most of two days trying to figure why pine > > didn't build. Arrgggh! And then you say the magic words, and poof! like > > magic, it works. > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From blanco-S8qYAnHmZTt34ZA5RureAJ4VBq8PJc8F at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 19 13:56:20 2003 From: blanco-S8qYAnHmZTt34ZA5RureAJ4VBq8PJc8F at public.gmane.org (Max Blanco) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 08:56:20 -0500 (EST) Subject: sendmail + mutt (debian) setup question In-Reply-To: <3FBB0E12.9090908-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <3FBB0E12.9090908@rogers.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 19 Nov 2003, Byron Sonne wrote: > > I've been using tin for over a decade, it just matures with age ;) > > Rob, I'm gonna put a distro together just for you: nothing but sh, vi, > twm, an xterm or two, pine and tin... and a uucp only installer ;) > > Funny thing is that it would still be friendlier than Ultrix... > Hey! That's like slackware basic install on 1.44 floppies. 14 disks, no hassle, no problems. If you update it to 2.6 and ext3, can I have one too? 8) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From blanco-S8qYAnHmZTt34ZA5RureAJ4VBq8PJc8F at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 19 14:05:44 2003 From: blanco-S8qYAnHmZTt34ZA5RureAJ4VBq8PJc8F at public.gmane.org (Max Blanco) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 09:05:44 -0500 (EST) Subject: courier=qmail=Maildir ; pine=mbox - now I get it! postfix = ? In-Reply-To: <200311190603.35353.fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org> References: <200311190603.35353.fraser@wehave.net> Message-ID: Fraser/All, On Wed, 19 Nov 2003, Fraser Campbell wrote: > There are different formats formats for mail storage. Maildir storage > involves several subdirectories and every email being stored in an individual > file. The more traditional mail format is mbox where all email is stored in > one file. There are advantages and disadvantages to either storage format. > > courier and qmail mail servers use Maildir by default, other MTAs are capable > of storing in Maildir either directly or through cooperation with procmail. Thanks for this info! It would seem to be crucial for a debian newbie like me. I don't remember the distro dselect notes saying anything like this. > > > I think all's well, except for the "Maildir" incompatibility with pine. > > > > Now if only I could fix that... > > AFAIK pine needs a patch to be compatible with maildir. Just go back to mutt With the hassles (Byron and I) went through just to compile pine, I'd rather not patch. > it's a better mail reader anyway ;-) In /etc/Muttrc there are a few > parameters to tweak so that mutt will default to ~/Maildir/ ... mbox_type is > one and spool_file (or similar) is another. "man mutt", seach for Maildir, > and you should be able to figure it out. I have a series of handmade tools built around pine/mbox. No way I'd give those up. I need a mailer that will give me mbox and /var/spool/mail/$user functionality. Any suggestions? cheers, max. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From forolinux-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 19 14:10:57 2003 From: forolinux-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Martin C) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 06:10:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: Mozilla 1.4.1 functionality In-Reply-To: <20031119025253.34608.qmail-/joetn0QaPmA/QwVtaZbd3CJp6faPEW9@public.gmane.org> References: <20031119025253.34608.qmail@web40709.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20031119141057.7020.qmail@web14522.mail.yahoo.com> --- Mel Seder wrote: > I'd like to play movies and mp3's using Fedora Core > 1. I have flash > going and Java but still want movies and mp3's. Can > anyone suggest > some programs or plugins and a link to instructions? > You can play movies with mplayer-plugin. The instructions are here: http://mplayerplug-in.sourceforge.net/download.html (you need to have installed mplayer in order to use the plug-in) __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From wmcgilvery-6d3DWWOeJtE at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 19 14:10:55 2003 From: wmcgilvery-6d3DWWOeJtE at public.gmane.org (Wil McGilvery) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 09:10:55 -0500 Subject: courier=qmail=Maildir ; pine=mbox - now I get it! postfix = ? Message-ID: <65B7B304AA3DE147BBD33938FE204E284A9487@lynchmail.lynch.msft> Postfix? Regards, Wil McGilvery Manager Lynch Digital Media Inc 416-744-7949 416-716-3964 (cell) 1-866-314-4678 416-744-0406? FAX www.LynchDigital.com -----Original Message----- From: Max Blanco [mailto:blanco-S8qYAnHmZTt34ZA5RureAJ4VBq8PJc8F at public.gmane.org] Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2003 9:06 AM To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Subject: [TLUG]: courier=qmail=Maildir ; pine=mbox - now I get it! postfix = ? Fraser/All, On Wed, 19 Nov 2003, Fraser Campbell wrote: > There are different formats formats for mail storage. Maildir storage > involves several subdirectories and every email being stored in an individual > file. The more traditional mail format is mbox where all email is stored in > one file. There are advantages and disadvantages to either storage format. > > courier and qmail mail servers use Maildir by default, other MTAs are capable > of storing in Maildir either directly or through cooperation with procmail. Thanks for this info! It would seem to be crucial for a debian newbie like me. I don't remember the distro dselect notes saying anything like this. > > > I think all's well, except for the "Maildir" incompatibility with pine. > > > > Now if only I could fix that... > > AFAIK pine needs a patch to be compatible with maildir. Just go back to mutt With the hassles (Byron and I) went through just to compile pine, I'd rather not patch. > it's a better mail reader anyway ;-) In /etc/Muttrc there are a few > parameters to tweak so that mutt will default to ~/Maildir/ ... mbox_type is > one and spool_file (or similar) is another. "man mutt", seach for Maildir, > and you should be able to figure it out. I have a series of handmade tools built around pine/mbox. No way I'd give those up. I need a mailer that will give me mbox and /var/spool/mail/$user functionality. Any suggestions? cheers, max. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 19 14:19:23 2003 From: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 09:19:23 -0500 (EST) Subject: sendmail + mutt (debian) setup question In-Reply-To: <3FBB0E12.9090908-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <3FBB0E12.9090908@rogers.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 19 Nov 2003, Byron Sonne wrote: > > I've been using tin for over a decade, it just matures with age ;) > > Rob, I'm gonna put a distro together just for you: nothing but sh, vi, > twm, an xterm or two, pine and tin... and a uucp only installer ;) Swap fvwm2 for twm and bash for sh you have most the utils I use to get my work done ;) Rob -- Robert Brockway B.Sc. email: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org, zzbrock at uqconnect.net Linux counter project ID #16440 (http://counter.li.org) "The earth is but one country and mankind its citizens" -Baha'u'llah -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From blanco-S8qYAnHmZTt34ZA5RureAJ4VBq8PJc8F at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 19 14:38:06 2003 From: blanco-S8qYAnHmZTt34ZA5RureAJ4VBq8PJc8F at public.gmane.org (Max Blanco) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 09:38:06 -0500 (EST) Subject: courier=qmail=Maildir ; pine=mbox - now I get it! postfix = ? In-Reply-To: <65B7B304AA3DE147BBD33938FE204E284A9487-49iW0tF5bQXl9+zcyUE9hx1TMoFmMu2o@public.gmane.org> References: <65B7B304AA3DE147BBD33938FE204E284A9487@lynchmail.lynch.msft> Message-ID: On Wed, 19 Nov 2003, Wil McGilvery wrote: > Postfix? > I don't understand your question... Now if I had a table parser, that page would help. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 19 14:44:54 2003 From: fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Fraser Campbell) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 09:44:54 -0500 Subject: courier=qmail=Maildir ; pine=mbox - now I get it! postfix = ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200311190944.54728.fraser@wehave.net> On Wednesday 19 November 2003 09:05, Max Blanco wrote: > I need a mailer that will give me mbox and /var/spool/mail/$user > functionality. > > Any suggestions? apt-get install postfix -- Fraser Campbell http://www.wehave.net/ Halton Hills, Ontario, Canada Debian GNU/Linux -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 19 14:52:31 2003 From: fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Fraser Campbell) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 09:52:31 -0500 Subject: SCO lives! Message-ID: <200311190952.31709.fraser@wehave.net> Saw rather amusing note from SCO: http://lwn.net/Articles/58911/ Probably they figure they should make it look like they're doing some real work with all the recently invested millions. Funny how all the other Linux distributors patched this 2 months ago but the guys that "own" Linux didn't bother with it until now. -- Fraser Campbell http://www.wehave.net/ Halton Hills, Ontario, Canada Debian GNU/Linux -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From wmcgilvery-6d3DWWOeJtE at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 19 14:50:22 2003 From: wmcgilvery-6d3DWWOeJtE at public.gmane.org (Wil McGilvery) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 09:50:22 -0500 Subject: courier=qmail=Maildir ; pine=mbox - now I get it! postfix= ? Message-ID: <65B7B304AA3DE147BBD33938FE204E284A948A@lynchmail.lynch.msft> You asked question I answered it with a suggestion as in "maybe try postfix" My bad for being a lazy typist. Regards, Wil McGilvery Manager Lynch Digital Media Inc 416-744-7949 416-716-3964 (cell) 1-866-314-4678 416-744-0406? FAX www.LynchDigital.com -----Original Message----- From: Max Blanco [mailto:blanco-S8qYAnHmZTt34ZA5RureAJ4VBq8PJc8F at public.gmane.org] Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2003 9:38 AM To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Subject: RE: [TLUG]: courier=qmail=Maildir ; pine=mbox - now I get it! postfix= ? On Wed, 19 Nov 2003, Wil McGilvery wrote: > Postfix? > I don't understand your question... Now if I had a table parser, that page would help. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From kmastin-PzQIwG9Jn9VAFePFGvp55w at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 19 14:43:51 2003 From: kmastin-PzQIwG9Jn9VAFePFGvp55w at public.gmane.org (Keith Mastin) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 09:43:51 -0500 (EST) Subject: sendmail/courier setup, incompatibility with pine In-Reply-To: <200311190603.35353.fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org> References: <200311190603.35353.fraser@wehave.net> Message-ID: <2137.216.138.194.32.1069253031.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> > There are different formats formats for mail storage. Maildir storage > involves several subdirectories and every email being stored in an > individual file. The more traditional mail format is mbox where all > email is stored in one file. There are advantages and disadvantages > to either storage format. Yes, but there's a little more to the story than just additional choice that should maybe be noted. Maildir was created by DJB because of the security issues he saw in mbox format. If one record gets munged, the whole mail file is corrupted. With Maildir, if a message gets munged, only that message is lost. I think Maildir is infinitely more secure and sensible for that reason alone. -- Keith -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From kmastin-PzQIwG9Jn9VAFePFGvp55w at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 19 14:50:58 2003 From: kmastin-PzQIwG9Jn9VAFePFGvp55w at public.gmane.org (Keith Mastin) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 09:50:58 -0500 (EST) Subject: pine ./build DEBUG=-g lnp works on ppclinux In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2173.216.138.194.32.1069253458.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> > Thanks, Byron... I spent most of two days trying to figure why pine > didn't build. Arrgggh! And then you say the magic words, and poof! like > magic, it works. Those magic words should be copyrighted and trademarked. What were they again? :) -- Keith -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From blanco-S8qYAnHmZTt34ZA5RureAJ4VBq8PJc8F at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 19 18:51:39 2003 From: blanco-S8qYAnHmZTt34ZA5RureAJ4VBq8PJc8F at public.gmane.org (Max Blanco) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 13:51:39 -0500 (EST) Subject: where does lynx "print to mail" option pipe to page to? Message-ID: Hi all, I think I finally got my pine/sendmail configuration to work. I tested "echo test | mail max", sent mail from pine account to pine account. Everything's hunky dory. Now the thing is my lynx browser print to mail command. It doesn't work. No message in /var/log/mail.log. The print to mail command pooches with an unreadable error like "sh: unknown: command not found". Where do I go to look for the command that lynx says it can't find? tia, max. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From dt-hKuJ9UrQZDM at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 19 20:01:31 2003 From: dt-hKuJ9UrQZDM at public.gmane.org (David Tilbrook) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 15:01:31 -0500 Subject: David Bruce? Message-ID: <3FBBCC1B.21C7F7DB@qef.com> Anyone know David Bruce's e-mail address? If so, ask him to contact me. If you are he, please contact me directly. Cheers. -- dt -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lists-Gb8Tj4xcA4YgsBAKwltoeQ at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 19 23:35:37 2003 From: lists-Gb8Tj4xcA4YgsBAKwltoeQ at public.gmane.org (Byron Q. Desnoyers Winmill) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 18:35:37 -0500 (EST) Subject: where does lynx "print to mail" option pipe to page to? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi again, I don't know how to set it up, but there are some options to check out in /etc/lynx.cfg: SYSTEM_MAIL looks promising, but that may only be for replies. You can also check the PRINTER section, but it doesn't look like it is defined there. Another option is 'lynx --dump tlug.ss.org' from the command line, then pipe it into your mail program. (Scheduled as a cron job, this is how I used to check sites daily.) If you use the latter option, it is possible to use links instead (if you like the way it formats web pages better). Byron. On Wed, 19 Nov 2003, Max Blanco wrote: > Now the thing is my lynx browser print to mail command. It doesn't work. > No message in /var/log/mail.log. The print to mail command pooches with > an unreadable error like "sh: unknown: command not found". > > Where do I go to look for the command that lynx says it can't find? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From blanco-S8qYAnHmZTt34ZA5RureAJ4VBq8PJc8F at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 19 22:15:37 2003 From: blanco-S8qYAnHmZTt34ZA5RureAJ4VBq8PJc8F at public.gmane.org (Max Blanco) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 17:15:37 -0500 (EST) Subject: Found out: where lynx "print to mail" option pipe: /etc/lynx.cfg In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Byron, Yeah, it was as simple as defining SYSTEM_MAIL: /usr/sbin/sendmail in /etc/lynx.cfg I had been thinking of a "top"-like command to check what lynx tried to spawn but that is in the realm of fiction, if I'm not mistaken. thanks to all who read my queries durin the last few days. I have pine/sendmail all fixed, with lynx able to print-to-mail. That's good enough... for now. cheers, max. On Wed, 19 Nov 2003, Byron Q. Desnoyers Winmill wrote: > Hi again, > > I don't know how to set it up, but there are some options to check out > in /etc/lynx.cfg: > > SYSTEM_MAIL looks promising, but that may only be for replies. You can > also check the PRINTER section, but it doesn't look like it is defined > there. > > Another option is 'lynx --dump tlug.ss.org' from the command line, then > pipe it into your mail program. (Scheduled as a cron job, this is how I > used to check sites daily.) > > If you use the latter option, it is possible to use links instead (if > you like the way it formats web pages better). > > Byron. > > On Wed, 19 Nov 2003, Max Blanco wrote: > > Now the thing is my lynx browser print to mail command. It doesn't work. > > No message in /var/log/mail.log. The print to mail command pooches with > > an unreadable error like "sh: unknown: command not found". > > > > Where do I go to look for the command that lynx says it can't find? > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From kcozens-qazKcTl6WRFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 19 23:06:47 2003 From: kcozens-qazKcTl6WRFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Kevin Cozens) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 18:06:47 -0500 Subject: courier=qmail=Maildir ; pine=mbox - now I get it! postfix = ? In-Reply-To: References: <200311190603.35353.fraser@wehave.net> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20031119180326.01fa5180@mail.interlog.com> At 09:05 AM 11/19/2003 -0500, max wrote: >I have a series of handmade tools built around pine/mbox. >No way I'd give those up. > >I need a mailer that will give me mbox and /var/spool/mail/$user >functionality. QMAIL can be configured to use either Maildir or Mailbox delivery. Its up to you which you want to use. IIRC, the default Mailbox delivery is to a file called Mailbox in the users home directory but you may be able to have it put users mail in to a central repository (ie. /ver/spool/mail). I currently use the Maildir route in my QMAIL setup. Cheers! Kevin. (http://www.interlog.com/~kcozens/) Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172 |"What are we going to do today, Borg?" E-mail:kcozens at interlog dot com|"Same thing we always do, Pinkutus: Packet:ve3syb-XXPEJ3/fxIc at public.gmane.org#con.on.ca.na| Try to assimilate the world!" #include | -Pinkutus & the Borg -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 20 05:11:05 2003 From: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 00:11:05 -0500 (EST) Subject: SCO/Caldera letter (AD2002) Message-ID: I particularly love the bit about "mutual respect for the open source communities." Hahahaha :) http://www.lemis.com/grog/UNIX/ Rob -- Robert Brockway B.Sc. email: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org, zzbrock at uqconnect.net Linux counter project ID #16440 (http://counter.li.org) "The earth is but one country and mankind its citizens" -Baha'u'llah -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From teddymills-VFlxZYho3OA at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 20 06:26:50 2003 From: teddymills-VFlxZYho3OA at public.gmane.org (Teddy Mills) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 01:26:50 -0500 Subject: SCO videos..bring a shovel References: Message-ID: <002001c3af2f$4bb54340$0301a8c0@amazon> cause baby, it gets pretty deep.... http://www.sco.com/cdxpo/ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Brockway" To: "TLUG mailing list" Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2003 12:11 AM Subject: [TLUG]: SCO/Caldera letter (AD2002) > I particularly love the bit about "mutual respect for the open source > communities." > > Hahahaha :) > > http://www.lemis.com/grog/UNIX/ > > Rob > > -- > Robert Brockway B.Sc. email: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org, zzbrock-cFo9iiqjkw8eIZ0/mPfg9Q at public.gmane.org > Linux counter project ID #16440 (http://counter.li.org) > "The earth is but one country and mankind its citizens" -Baha'u'llah > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 20 11:21:38 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 06:21:38 -0500 Subject: SCO/Caldera letter (AD2002) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20031120062138.101e54c6.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Thu, 20 Nov 2003 00:11:05 -0500 (EST) Robert Brockway wrote: > I particularly love the bit about "mutual respect for the open source > communities." > > Hahahaha :) > > http://www.lemis.com/grog/UNIX/ Waitaminnit, doesn't this mean that SCO, formerly Caldera, has already released their supposed IP, the UNIX source, under a BSD license, meaning it is essentially freely distributable? Or does "ancient UNIX releases (V1-7 and 32V)" *not* include the SysV code they claim is still theirs and has been copied into the Linux kernel? -- JoeHill Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "The free communication of ideas and opinions is one of the most precious of the rights of man."-- Declaration of the Rights of Man -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 20 12:52:50 2003 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 07:52:50 -0500 Subject: SCO videos..bring a shovel In-Reply-To: <002001c3af2f$4bb54340$0301a8c0-vAnPq90cUBg@public.gmane.org> References: <002001c3af2f$4bb54340$0301a8c0@amazon> Message-ID: <3FBCB922.6020303@rogers.com> I stopped watching after a minute. All I got was extremely distored music, while someone appeared to be talking in the background. I couldn't hear a word he said. Teddy Mills wrote: > cause baby, it gets pretty deep.... > > http://www.sco.com/cdxpo/ > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Robert Brockway" > To: "TLUG mailing list" > Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2003 12:11 AM > Subject: [TLUG]: SCO/Caldera letter (AD2002) > > > >>I particularly love the bit about "mutual respect for the open source >>communities." >> >>Hahahaha :) >> >>http://www.lemis.com/grog/UNIX/ >> >>Rob >> >>-- >>Robert Brockway B.Sc. email: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org, > > zzbrock-cFo9iiqjkw8eIZ0/mPfg9Q at public.gmane.org > >>Linux counter project ID #16440 (http://counter.li.org) >>"The earth is but one country and mankind its citizens" -Baha'u'llah >>-- >>The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org >>TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >>How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml >> >> > > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From sidney-3Kd7Tu4o6f/sBN0MCq728g at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 20 13:26:17 2003 From: sidney-3Kd7Tu4o6f/sBN0MCq728g at public.gmane.org (Sidney Shapiro) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 08:26:17 -0500 Subject: IBM Linux Video Message-ID: <000901c3af69$e6bf00d0$6401a8c0@main> Has anyone seen the new Linux video from IBM? I thought it was pretty nifty. As it started, I thought it would be another IBM/M$ type of commercial, and was surprised when it ended with the bylines: Open Source - Linux - IBM Sid -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 20 14:15:41 2003 From: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 09:15:41 -0500 (EST) Subject: SCO/Caldera letter (AD2002) In-Reply-To: <20031120062138.101e54c6.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <20031120062138.101e54c6.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, 20 Nov 2003, JoeHill wrote: > > http://www.lemis.com/grog/UNIX/ > > Waitaminnit, doesn't this mean that SCO, formerly Caldera, has already > released their supposed IP, the UNIX source, under a BSD license, > meaning it is essentially freely distributable? > > Or does "ancient UNIX releases (V1-7 and 32V)" *not* include the SysV > code they claim is still theirs and has been copied into the Linux > kernel? I wondered the same thing but honestly have no idea. I suspect that parts of SysV would be identical to the earlier versions and that those parts would now be completely under a BSD licence. As for the rest of SysV I can't comment. This all assumes that they can produce a shred of evidence of course. A list of files doesn't cut it unless they plan to claim complete ownership of the files, which they haven't done afaik. Caldera/SCO don't seem to be good at tracking the code they release under the BSD licence though. I think they were embarrassed when it was shown within hours that the code they showed during the Road Show had in fact been released under a BSD licence by themselves (but was released seperately to the code mentioned above). Their subsequent revisionist history[1] didn't convince anyone I know. [1] They denied making the claim that the code was an example of the "stolen" code and instead claimed it was just an example of code in the kernel. Lamest attempt to hide a mistake I've ever seen. Rob -- Robert Brockway B.Sc. email: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org, zzbrock at uqconnect.net Linux counter project ID #16440 (http://counter.li.org) "The earth is but one country and mankind its citizens" -Baha'u'llah -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 20 14:43:29 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 09:43:29 -0500 Subject: SCO/Caldera letter (AD2002) In-Reply-To: References: <20031120062138.101e54c6.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <20031120094329.3654f52c.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Thu, 20 Nov 2003 09:15:41 -0500 (EST) Robert Brockway wrote: > I wondered the same thing but honestly have no idea. I suspect that parts > of SysV would be identical to the earlier versions and that those parts > would now be completely under a BSD licence. As for the rest of SysV I > can't comment. > > This all assumes that they can produce a shred of evidence of course. A > list of files doesn't cut it unless they plan to claim complete ownership > of the files, which they haven't done afaik. In a way, I think this is *part* of their "plan". That is, to so confuse the issue, to make it so difficult to know where they are going with this, that Linux and Open Source in general are seen as having an "unknown" element in their makeup. It certainly fits with the whole "MS is behind this to further their FUD campaign" conspiracy theory. As Homer Simpson put it, "...stupid like a fox!". I wouldn't want to be one of the judges hearing this case...oh, wait, yes I would! "Mr. McBride, this court sentences you to DEATH!" "But, your Honour, this is a civil..." "DEATH!" LOL! -- JoeHill Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "The more laws and order are made prominent, the more thieves and robbers there will be."-- Lao Tsu -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jason-gaRZxGPHtpBxZtjKW1aY+1aTQe2KTcn/ at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 20 15:18:16 2003 From: jason-gaRZxGPHtpBxZtjKW1aY+1aTQe2KTcn/ at public.gmane.org (Jason Shein) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 10:18:16 -0500 Subject: IBM Linux Video In-Reply-To: <000901c3af69$e6bf00d0$6401a8c0-UxDKcUsq0RM@public.gmane.org> References: <000901c3af69$e6bf00d0$6401a8c0@main> Message-ID: <3FBCDB38.30908@pcsecurityonline.com> Sidney Shapiro wrote: > Has anyone seen the new Linux video from IBM? I thought it was pretty > nifty. As it started, I thought it would be another IBM/M$ type of > commercial, and was surprised when it ended with the bylines: Open > Source - Linux - IBM > > Sid > > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > You mean the one with the kid? I went to the link at www.ibm.com/open and the link was dead. Luckily it is mirrored all over the place. Hopefully they will fix this soon. If the link is still dead, search google for prodigy90_med.mpg Supposedly they are going to bombard all the major networks with this over the holidays. This should get all of your friends saying "So what's this Linux you are always talking about?" If it wasnt 8 megs I'd email it to all my firends. Supposedly there is a 450k mpeg around, so if anyone finds a direct link to it please post it. This will definitely turn some heads. -- " Eventually people tire of repairing broken Windows, And decide to replace them with something stronger" (o_ //\ Linux - The Choice Of A GNU Generation V_/_ Jason Shein Linux Registered User #281100 jason-gaRZxGPHtpBxZtjKW1aY+1aTQe2KTcn/@public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lists-Gb8Tj4xcA4YgsBAKwltoeQ at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 20 16:40:22 2003 From: lists-Gb8Tj4xcA4YgsBAKwltoeQ at public.gmane.org (Byron Q. Desnoyers Winmill) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 11:40:22 -0500 (EST) Subject: IBM Linux Video In-Reply-To: <3FBCDB38.30908-gaRZxGPHtpBxZtjKW1aY+1aTQe2KTcn/@public.gmane.org> References: <000901c3af69$e6bf00d0$6401a8c0@main> <3FBCDB38.30908@pcsecurityonline.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 20 Nov 2003, Jason Shein wrote: > If it wasnt 8 megs I'd email it to all my firends. Supposedly there is a > 450k mpeg around, so if anyone finds a direct link to it please post it. This never prevented people from sending me 2 MB, unsolicited Word documents -- back when I had a 14.4 kbps modem. Byron. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From talexb-SBdzbUvMQDunS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 20 15:36:19 2003 From: talexb-SBdzbUvMQDunS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org (talexb-SBdzbUvMQDunS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 10:36:19 -0500 (EST) Subject: IBM Linux Video In-Reply-To: <3FBCDB38.30908-gaRZxGPHtpBxZtjKW1aY+1aTQe2KTcn/@public.gmane.org> References: <3FBCDB38.30908@pcsecurityonline.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 20 Nov 2003, Jason Shein wrote: > Sidney Shapiro wrote: > > Has anyone seen the new Linux video from IBM? I thought it was pretty > > nifty. As it started, I thought it would be another IBM/M$ type of > > commercial, and was surprised when it ended with the bylines: Open > > Source - Linux - IBM > [...] > > If it wasnt 8 megs I'd email it to all my firends. Supposedly there is a > 450k mpeg around, so if anyone finds a direct link to it please post it. Why send huge attachments to all your friends by E-Mail? Why not just send the link around instead? That way you don't burden the E-Mail system with huge attachments and instead pass the load over to a browser or media player. Alex ps I saw the ad last week .. it's great to watch for the cameos (Muhammed Ali, for example) but it's also a powerful ad. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jason-gaRZxGPHtpBxZtjKW1aY+1aTQe2KTcn/ at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 20 16:05:46 2003 From: jason-gaRZxGPHtpBxZtjKW1aY+1aTQe2KTcn/ at public.gmane.org (Jason Shein) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 11:05:46 -0500 Subject: IBM Linux Video In-Reply-To: References: <000901c3af69$e6bf00d0$6401a8c0@main> <3FBCDB38.30908@pcsecurityonline.com> Message-ID: <3FBCE65A.7060209@pcsecurityonline.com> Byron Q. Desnoyers Winmill wrote: > > On Thu, 20 Nov 2003, Jason Shein wrote: > >>If it wasnt 8 megs I'd email it to all my firends. Supposedly there is a >>450k mpeg around, so if anyone finds a direct link to it please post it. > > > This never prevented people from sending me 2 MB, unsolicited Word > documents -- back when I had a 14.4 kbps modem. > > Byron. > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > I agree. BUT the "click on any attachment" mentality of windows users still baffles me. If I send an attachment, and later ask "so what did you think of that video" people will have watched it. If I send a link I get "No I havn't gone there yet what is it about?" Go figure why windows users always have a virus problem. -- " Eventually people tire of repairing broken Windows, And decide to replace them with something stronger" (o_ //\ Linux - The Choice Of A GNU Generation V_/_ Jason Shein Linux Registered User #281100 jason-gaRZxGPHtpBxZtjKW1aY+1aTQe2KTcn/@public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From sbarbour-uX10M8IjeSmR85p3v6+8aQ at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 20 16:30:30 2003 From: sbarbour-uX10M8IjeSmR85p3v6+8aQ at public.gmane.org (Steve Barbour) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 11:30:30 -0500 Subject: David Bruce? In-Reply-To: <3FBBCC1B.21C7F7DB-hKuJ9UrQZDM@public.gmane.org> References: <3FBBCC1B.21C7F7DB@qef.com> Message-ID: Are you referring to David Bruce at University of Guelph? -----Original Message----- From: owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org [mailto:owner-tlug at ss.org]On Behalf Of David Tilbrook Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2003 3:02 PM To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Subject: [TLUG]: David Bruce? Anyone know David Bruce's e-mail address? If so, ask him to contact me. If you are he, please contact me directly. Cheers. -- dt -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 20 16:33:13 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 11:33:13 -0500 Subject: IBM Linux Video In-Reply-To: <3FBCDB38.30908-gaRZxGPHtpBxZtjKW1aY+1aTQe2KTcn/@public.gmane.org> References: <000901c3af69$e6bf00d0$6401a8c0@main> <3FBCDB38.30908@pcsecurityonline.com> Message-ID: <20031120113313.117df03b.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Thu, 20 Nov 2003 10:18:16 -0500 Jason Shein wrote: > Supposedly they are going to bombard all the major networks with this > over the holidays. This should get all of your friends saying "So what's > this Linux you are always talking about?" Wow, what a great ad! I've already watched it 3 times, LOL! Oh, man, I can't wait! This is a broadside to MS and SCO, and a *huge* boost for Linux going mainstream. This one has *got* to have Ballmer and McBride spinning, I love it. I think the best part about the ad, though, is that it does not, as many on this list have pointed out as a pitfall, tout Linux as the "here and now", but as an opportunity and as a potential, as the future. Ya, Ali, I hafta say, that gave me goosebumps! -- JoeHill Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "There are three side effects of acid: enhanced long-term memory, decreased short-term memory, and I forget the third."-- Timothy Leary -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From sidney-3Kd7Tu4o6f/sBN0MCq728g at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 20 16:48:03 2003 From: sidney-3Kd7Tu4o6f/sBN0MCq728g at public.gmane.org (Sidney Shapiro) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 11:48:03 -0500 Subject: IBM Linux Video In-Reply-To: <20031120113313.117df03b.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <20031120113313.117df03b.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <005401c3af86$148c18b0$6401a8c0@main> > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org [mailto:owner-tlug at ss.org] On Behalf Of JoeHill > Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2003 11:33 AM > To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > Subject: Re: [TLUG]: IBM Linux Video > > On Thu, 20 Nov 2003 10:18:16 -0500 > Jason Shein wrote: > > > Supposedly they are going to bombard all the major networks with this > > over the holidays. This should get all of your friends saying "So what's > > this Linux you are always talking about?" > > Wow, what a great ad! I've already watched it 3 times, LOL! > > Oh, man, I can't wait! This is a broadside to MS and SCO, and a *huge* > boost for > Linux going mainstream. This one has *got* to have Ballmer and McBride > spinning, > I love it. > > I think the best part about the ad, though, is that it does not, as many > on this > list have pointed out as a pitfall, tout Linux as the "here and now", but > as an > opportunity and as a potential, as the future. > > Ya, Ali, I hafta say, that gave me goosebumps! > When I first saw it, from when it said Linux until it mentioned IBM, I was wondering who in the open source community can afford this kind of coverage to spread the word? Sid -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 20 17:07:13 2003 From: henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org (Henry Spencer) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 12:07:13 -0500 (EST) Subject: SCO/Caldera letter (AD2002) In-Reply-To: <20031120062138.101e54c6.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <20031120062138.101e54c6.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, 20 Nov 2003, JoeHill wrote: > Or does "ancient UNIX releases (V1-7 and 32V)" *not* include the SysV > code they claim is still theirs and has been copied into the Linux > kernel? All releases of System V (and its immediate predecessor, System III) were explicitly excluded from the "ancient Unix releases" freeing. And yes, the kernel did change quite a bit between V7/32V and the later System Vs. Depends on just when the secret sauce was put in, but quite plausibly it could have been after V7 and 32V. Henry Spencer henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 20 17:04:51 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 12:04:51 -0500 Subject: IBM Linux Video In-Reply-To: <005401c3af86$148c18b0$6401a8c0-UxDKcUsq0RM@public.gmane.org> References: <20031120113313.117df03b.joehill@sympatico.ca> <005401c3af86$148c18b0$6401a8c0@main> Message-ID: <20031120120451.77f168ef.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Thu, 20 Nov 2003 11:48:03 -0500 "Sidney Shapiro" wrote: > When I first saw it, from when it said Linux until it mentioned IBM, I > was wondering who in the open source community can afford this kind of > coverage to spread the word? Well, don't get me wrong, but I'm not one who puts a lot of trust in the corporate giants like IBM. I think they are making a smart business move, supporting Linux as a means to an end, not because they are all converts of Richard Stallman. If it benefits the Linux "community", then great, but in the end it's just business, and it's never a smart move to expect a company like IBM to always act in the best interests of that community. It certainly is nice to have a behemoth in your corner, but watch out if that behemoth decides he no longer has any use for the "little guys". Anyway, it's a great ad, for what it's worth, and, like I say, I wish I was there when McBride and Ballmer 1st saw it ;-) -- JoeHill Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "The free communication of ideas and opinions is one of the most precious of the rights of man."-- Declaration of the Rights of Man -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 20 17:15:16 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 12:15:16 -0500 Subject: SCO/Caldera letter (AD2002) In-Reply-To: References: <20031120062138.101e54c6.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <20031120121516.71b22fe2.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Thu, 20 Nov 2003 12:07:13 -0500 (EST) Henry Spencer wrote: > Depends on just when the secret sauce was put in, but quite plausibly it > could have been after V7 and 32V. But then of course SCO runs smack into another wall, in that it already released it's own version of Linux under the GPL, which according to it's own arguments contained the SysV code...which is why it is now claiming the GPL is "communist" and/or "viral", and needn't be enforced, but then it knowingly *included* the GPL in it's release, which means... Does this remind anyone of that Star Trek episode where Spock shut's down Mudd's women androids by saying something like "everything I say is a lie"? I really do feel sorry for the judges hearing this case, if it ever gets that far. What a mess. -- JoeHill Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "True communication is possible only between equals, because inferiors are more consistently rewarded for telling their superiors pleasant lies than for telling the truth."-- The SNAFU Principle -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 20 17:01:46 2003 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter L. Peres) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 19:01:46 +0200 (IST) Subject: IBM Linux Video In-Reply-To: <3FBCE65A.7060209-gaRZxGPHtpBxZtjKW1aY+1aTQe2KTcn/@public.gmane.org> References: <000901c3af69$e6bf00d0$6401a8c0@main> <3FBCDB38.30908@pcsecurityonline.com> <3FBCE65A.7060209@pcsecurityonline.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 20 Nov 2003, Jason Shein wrote: > I agree. BUT the "click on any attachment" mentality of windows users > still baffles me. If I send an attachment, and later ask "so what did > you think of that video" people will have watched it. If I send a link I > get "No I havn't gone there yet what is it about?" > > Go figure why windows users always have a virus problem. I especially like the XP feature that opens some (all) files that are being deleted before deleting them. I do not know why this happens. I'll just delete this suspect file here, click & drag - doh! Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 20 18:00:33 2003 From: henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org (Henry Spencer) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 13:00:33 -0500 (EST) Subject: IBM Linux Video In-Reply-To: <20031120120451.77f168ef.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <20031120120451.77f168ef.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, 20 Nov 2003, JoeHill wrote: > ...I think they are making a smart business move, > supporting Linux as a means to an end, not because they are all converts of > Richard Stallman. This is actually good. People who are supporting Linux out of intelligent self-interest are *more* reliable, not less, than people who support it because they've suddenly got religion. Someone who suddenly gets religion once can get it again, and there is no predicting what they'll do. One day they're singing the Internationale under the red flag, the next they're leading the Fascists to seize power. (In 1914, the world's most famous brick-throwing flag-waving ultra-radical Marxist was a young Italian named Benito Mussolini...) When the motive is intelligent self-interest, you can generally understand what they're up to and how they're likely to react to new developments. Their thought patterns may be subtle but they aren't incomprehensible. > If it benefits the Linux "community", then great, but in the > end it's just business, and it's never a smart move to expect a > company like IBM to always act in the best interests of that community. The best way to ensure the long-term health of the Linux community is to maximize the number of people and companies who see its continued health as being in their own best interests. Henry Spencer henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jeff-iKtDQjMWzBVad6cXvNuc5Q at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 20 18:07:17 2003 From: jeff-iKtDQjMWzBVad6cXvNuc5Q at public.gmane.org (Jeff Mitchell) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 12:07:17 -0600 (CST) Subject: IBM Linux Video In-Reply-To: <3FBCDB38.30908-gaRZxGPHtpBxZtjKW1aY+1aTQe2KTcn/@public.gmane.org> References: <000901c3af69$e6bf00d0$6401a8c0@main> <3FBCDB38.30908@pcsecurityonline.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 20 Nov 2003, Jason Shein wrote: > Sidney Shapiro wrote: > > Has anyone seen the new Linux video from IBM? I thought it was pretty > > nifty. As it started, I thought it would be another IBM/M$ type of > > commercial, and was surprised when it ended with the bylines: Open > > Source - Linux - IBM > > > > Sid > > > > > You mean the one with the kid? I went to the link at www.ibm.com/open > and the link was dead. Luckily it is mirrored all over the place. > Hopefully they will fix this soon. If the link is still dead, search > google for prodigy90_med.mpg > The video and its transcript are available here: http://www-3.ibm.com/e-business/doc/content/ondemand/prodigy_transcript.html -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From blanco-S8qYAnHmZTt34ZA5RureAJ4VBq8PJc8F at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 20 18:44:53 2003 From: blanco-S8qYAnHmZTt34ZA5RureAJ4VBq8PJc8F at public.gmane.org (Max Blanco) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 13:44:53 -0500 (EST) Subject: microserfs? wa Re:[fw: Apple claims developer's property] In-Reply-To: <20031118203355.GR745-y6ukv7ArdSHYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <20031118203355.GR745@melon.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Nov 2003, Kristofer Coward wrote: > > Just because you sometimes use "open source", doesn't mean you're not a > shithead. > I didn't read Coupland's "microserfs". Did it deal with farces like this? > ----- Forwarded message from tOM Trottier ----- > From: tOM Trottier > To: discuss-gyMb1R/nBgMi283oa2GPJQLNbHufi5vF at public.gmane.org > Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 14:11:29 -0500 > Subject: [d-HC0uBsqfcHw at public.gmane.org] Apple claims developer's property > > Apple claims developer's property > > http://www.thinksecret.com/news/netflixfanatic.html > > > ---- Abacurial Information Management Consultants ---- > Tom A. Trottier, President http://abacurial.com > 758 Albert St, Ottawa ON Canada K1R 7V8 > N45.412 W75.714 +1 613 860-6633 fax:+1 775 307-4133 > "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little > temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." > -- Benjamin Franklin > > ----- End forwarded message ----- > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jzygmont-tEQKYFGiemxAYG7eUwYNkWD2FQJk+8+b at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 20 18:58:54 2003 From: jzygmont-tEQKYFGiemxAYG7eUwYNkWD2FQJk+8+b at public.gmane.org (Justin Zygmont) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 13:58:54 -0500 (EST) Subject: SCO/Caldera letter (AD2002) In-Reply-To: <20031120062138.101e54c6.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <20031120062138.101e54c6.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: I was just looking at some atrifacts from the SysV days, it just reminds me how weak of a case SCO might actually have. So many features of UNIX were common and open knowledge, it kind of makes it hard to claim an infringement. The SysV vs. BSD suit got nowhere. On Thu, 20 Nov 2003, JoeHill wrote: > On Thu, 20 Nov 2003 00:11:05 -0500 (EST) > Robert Brockway wrote: > > > I particularly love the bit about "mutual respect for the open source > > communities." > > > > Hahahaha :) > > > > http://www.lemis.com/grog/UNIX/ > > Waitaminnit, doesn't this mean that SCO, formerly Caldera, has already > released their supposed IP, the UNIX source, under a BSD license, > meaning it is essentially freely distributable? > > Or does "ancient UNIX releases (V1-7 and 32V)" *not* include the SysV > code they claim is still theirs and has been copied into the Linux > kernel? > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 20 19:13:27 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 14:13:27 -0500 Subject: IBM Linux Video In-Reply-To: References: <20031120120451.77f168ef.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <20031120141327.06b75491.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Thu, 20 Nov 2003 13:00:33 -0500 (EST) Henry Spencer wrote: > This is actually good. People who are supporting Linux out of intelligent > self-interest are *more* reliable, not less, than people who support it > because they've suddenly got religion. Well, I wouldn't presume to speak for RS, but I believe from what I've read that his positions do come from self-interest, the interest in seeing the community he belongs to grow and flourish. And I certainly wouldn't compare him to Mussolini; but while we're on that subject, it was Mussolini who preferred to be called a "Corporatist" rather than "Fascist", believing as he did that the world should be ruled by the corporate elites, rather than democratically elected governments. There's still a few like him about, some of them live in the White House, run oil companies, etc. Just because someone or something is predictable, doesn't mean they're trustworthy or reliable. > Someone who suddenly gets religion once can get it again, and there is no > predicting what they'll do. One day they're singing the Internationale > under the red flag, the next they're leading the Fascists to seize power. > (In 1914, the world's most famous brick-throwing flag-waving ultra-radical > Marxist was a young Italian named Benito Mussolini...) Ya, and check out Abbie Hoffman, LOL! > When the motive is intelligent self-interest, you can generally understand > what they're up to and how they're likely to react to new developments. > Their thought patterns may be subtle but they aren't incomprehensible. Tell that to the investors in Enron, MCI/Worldcom, et al. I think maybe you've been reading a little too much Ayn Rand... :-D > > If it benefits the Linux "community", then great, but in the > > end it's just business, and it's never a smart move to expect a > > company like IBM to always act in the best interests of that community. > > The best way to ensure the long-term health of the Linux community is to > maximize the number of people and companies who see its continued health > as being in their own best interests. No argument there, but they may not always be easily convinced ;-) -- JoeHill Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "True communication is possible only between equals, because inferiors are more consistently rewarded for telling their superiors pleasant lies than for telling the truth."-- The SNAFU Principle -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 20 19:25:08 2003 From: henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org (Henry Spencer) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 14:25:08 -0500 (EST) Subject: IBM Linux Video In-Reply-To: <20031120141327.06b75491.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <20031120141327.06b75491.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, 20 Nov 2003, JoeHill wrote: > > When the motive is intelligent self-interest, you can generally understand > > what they're up to and how they're likely to react to new developments. > > Their thought patterns may be subtle but they aren't incomprehensible. > > Tell that to the investors in Enron, MCI/Worldcom, et al. Well, I did say *intelligent* self-interest. :-) There was some truly remarkable stupidity going on at the top levels of those outfits... Even crooks are moderately predictable, though, once you *know* that they're crooks. Henry Spencer henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From matt-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 20 20:36:25 2003 From: matt-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Matthew Rice) Date: 20 Nov 2003 15:36:25 -0500 Subject: IBM Linux Video In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Henry Spencer writes: > Someone who suddenly gets religion once can get it again, and there is no > predicting what they'll do. One day they're singing the Internationale > under the red flag, the next they're leading the Fascists to seize power. > (In 1914, the world's most famous brick-throwing flag-waving ultra-radical > Marxist was a young Italian named Benito Mussolini...) Or closer to home, one day they're contributing source to Linux and the next they are suing everyone that touches it :) -- matthew rice starnix inc. phone: 905-771-0017 x242 thornhill, ontario, canada http://www.starnix.com professional linux services & products -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From fcsoft-rxKNY4w4koG3ikBYyZqyVg at public.gmane.org Fri Nov 21 01:14:57 2003 From: fcsoft-rxKNY4w4koG3ikBYyZqyVg at public.gmane.org (bob findlay) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 20:14:57 -0500 Subject: IBM Linux Video In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20031121010712.3C3F31F5B9B@outbox.allstream.net> > > The best way to ensure the long-term health of the Linux community is to > maximize the number of people and companies who see its continued health > as being in their own best interests. > > Henry Spencer > henry-lqW1N6Cllo10IscgpWfJZA at public.gmane.orgnet Unfortunately, with the recent collapse of software development as a viable career choice there soon won't be enough experienced developers left (outside of those employed by the big boys - IBM, HP, SGI, Novell) to keep the developer diversity that Linux needs to thrive. This is most definitely not a good thing. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From blanco-S8qYAnHmZTt34ZA5RureAJ4VBq8PJc8F at public.gmane.org Fri Nov 21 01:29:50 2003 From: blanco-S8qYAnHmZTt34ZA5RureAJ4VBq8PJc8F at public.gmane.org (Max Blanco) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 20:29:50 -0500 (EST) Subject: macintosh ppclinux: how to get mouse to work? Message-ID: Hi Byron(All), I cannot use my mouse as is. This is due to my lack of familiarity with ppclinux. I do not know how to set up my gpm.conf, specifically, which /dev file to use. Can anyone give me a hand? tia, max. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From blsonne-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Fri Nov 21 02:30:07 2003 From: blsonne-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Byron Sonne) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 21:30:07 -0500 Subject: macintosh ppclinux: how to get mouse to work? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3FBD78AF.3060902@rogers.com> > I cannot use my mouse as is. This is due to my lack of familiarity with > ppclinux. I do not know how to set up my gpm.conf, specifically, which > /dev file to use. I can't help much either, but perhaps someone can with a little more info... what type of mac and what type of mouse/mouse interface? (usb, etc) If it's usb and a new machine I might be able to take a look at my wife's OSX box upstairs and deduce something from that. -- For good, return good. For evil, return justice. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From blsonne-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Fri Nov 21 02:44:45 2003 From: blsonne-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Byron Sonne) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 21:44:45 -0500 Subject: IBM Linux Video In-Reply-To: <20031121010712.3C3F31F5B9B-pwyU32sTfCqP7boJH+kiu+TW4wlIGRCZ@public.gmane.org> References: <20031121010712.3C3F31F5B9B@outbox.allstream.net> Message-ID: <3FBD7C1D.3020608@rogers.com> > Unfortunately, with the recent collapse of software development as a viable > career choice there soon won't be enough experienced developers left (outside > of those employed by the big boys - IBM, HP, SGI, Novell) to keep the > developer diversity that Linux needs to thrive. I think that's a bit harsh, although it could very well be true. Software as an industry hasn't been around long enough, in my opinion, to determine if it is subject to any cycles peculiar to it so collapse might be premature. I think what we're really seeing is the commoditization of IT and software rather than a collapse. Software development is still a viable career choice, and I think it still will be for the forseeable future. The question is whether it will be for the kind of things you want to do and the kind of environment that you want to do it in. Otherwise, if people are only in it for the money and will drop linux when the dollars are gone, then fuck 'em and let 'em eat shit. If it's really important to them, then they'll do it at home, on their own time, for the love of it and to help out mankind and no other reason. Which is a more noble ideal anyways. I'd rather work at Starbucks and have a modest living coding for linux than be rich and code for BillyG and his cabal of vermin. In fact, one could argue the less corporate interest and money being pumped into linux, the better. The less american money in any case. -- For good, return good. For evil, return justice. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From blanco-S8qYAnHmZTt34ZA5RureAJ4VBq8PJc8F at public.gmane.org Fri Nov 21 02:58:27 2003 From: blanco-S8qYAnHmZTt34ZA5RureAJ4VBq8PJc8F at public.gmane.org (Max Blanco) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 21:58:27 -0500 (EST) Subject: macintosh ppclinux: how to get mouse to work? In-Reply-To: <3FBD78AF.3060902-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <3FBD78AF.3060902@rogers.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 20 Nov 2003, Byron Sonne wrote: > > I cannot use my mouse as is. This is due to my lack of familiarity with > > ppclinux. I do not know how to set up my gpm.conf, specifically, which > > /dev file to use. > > I can't help much either, but perhaps someone can with a little more > info... what type of mac and what type of mouse/mouse interface? (usb, etc) > > If it's usb and a new machine I might be able to take a look at my > wife's OSX box upstairs and deduce something from that. > No. It's an OldWorld beige G3 machine with a standard serial interface, through the keyboard. # dmesg | grep mouse input0: Macintosh mouse button evaluation ADB mouse at 3, handler set to 2 mouse0: PS/2 mouse device for input2 mouse1: PS/2 mouse device for input0 mice: PS/2 mouse device common for all mice. Your OSX box may not help much. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Fri Nov 21 03:10:01 2003 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 22:10:01 -0500 Subject: IBM Linux Video In-Reply-To: References: <000901c3af69$e6bf00d0$6401a8c0@main> <3FBCDB38.30908@pcsecurityonline.com> Message-ID: <3FBD8209.9060400@rogers.com> Jeff Mitchell wrote: > On Thu, 20 Nov 2003, Jason Shein wrote: > > >>Sidney Shapiro wrote: >> >>>Has anyone seen the new Linux video from IBM? I thought it was pretty >>>nifty. As it started, I thought it would be another IBM/M$ type of >>>commercial, and was surprised when it ended with the bylines: Open >>>Source - Linux - IBM >>> >>>Sid >>> >>> > > >>You mean the one with the kid? I went to the link at www.ibm.com/open >>and the link was dead. Luckily it is mirrored all over the place. >>Hopefully they will fix this soon. If the link is still dead, search >>google for prodigy90_med.mpg >> > > > The video and its transcript are available here: > > http://www-3.ibm.com/e-business/doc/content/ondemand/prodigy_transcript.html Curious thing. Even though I have RealPlayer 8 for Linux installed, that web site says I don't. I had to run XP to see the video. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From blanco-S8qYAnHmZTt34ZA5RureAJ4VBq8PJc8F at public.gmane.org Fri Nov 21 03:16:19 2003 From: blanco-S8qYAnHmZTt34ZA5RureAJ4VBq8PJc8F at public.gmane.org (Max Blanco) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 22:16:19 -0500 (EST) Subject: IBM Linux Video In-Reply-To: <3FBD7C1D.3020608-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <3FBD7C1D.3020608@rogers.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 20 Nov 2003, Byron Sonne wrote: > > Unfortunately, with the recent collapse of software development as a viable > > career choice there soon won't be enough experienced developers left (outside > > of those employed by the big boys - IBM, HP, SGI, Novell) to keep the > > developer diversity that Linux needs to thrive. > > I think that's a bit harsh, although it could very well be true. > Software as an industry hasn't been around long enough, in my opinion, > to determine if it is subject to any cycles peculiar to it so collapse > might be premature. > That depends on when (whether?) the sheeple clue in to the fact that their tax dollars funnel into large behemoths that change languages and/or OSes like underwear when they need to make their bottom line fatter. Examples are Y2K and C++, not to mention anything microsoft sells. I compare this industry to cigarettes: a drag, then poof, it's gone. > In fact, one could argue the less corporate interest and money being > pumped into linux, the better. The less american money in any case. Yeah, that's why I avoided postfix: IBM=hal. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org Fri Nov 21 03:32:58 2003 From: henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org (Henry Spencer) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 22:32:58 -0500 (EST) Subject: IBM Linux Video In-Reply-To: <20031121010712.3C3F31F5B9B-pwyU32sTfCqP7boJH+kiu+TW4wlIGRCZ@public.gmane.org> References: <20031121010712.3C3F31F5B9B@outbox.allstream.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 20 Nov 2003, bob findlay wrote: > Unfortunately, with the recent collapse of software development as a viable > career choice there soon won't be enough experienced developers left (outside > of those employed by the big boys - IBM, HP, SGI, Novell) to keep the > developer diversity that Linux needs to thrive. Plenty of people are still employed in software development, by no means all at big companies. The software industry is thriving, by any ordinary standards; only by comparison with the dot-com hysteria of a few years ago is it in a slump. Henry Spencer henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jingsu-26n5VD7DAF2Tm46uYYfjYg at public.gmane.org Fri Nov 21 03:40:04 2003 From: jingsu-26n5VD7DAF2Tm46uYYfjYg at public.gmane.org (Jing Su) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 22:40:04 -0500 Subject: IBM Linux Video In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Having just watched that video, I think it is a good commercial. But... is it just me or does that little kid remind you of Eminem? Will MC-Tux join MC-Hawking in gangster rapping? (Off Topic and not Linux related...) In case any of you haven't seen MC Hawking, it's worth a visit; quite funny. www.mchawking.com -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From kmastin-PzQIwG9Jn9VAFePFGvp55w at public.gmane.org Fri Nov 21 03:39:44 2003 From: kmastin-PzQIwG9Jn9VAFePFGvp55w at public.gmane.org (Keith Mastin) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 22:39:44 -0500 (EST) Subject: IBM Linux Video In-Reply-To: <3FBD7C1D.3020608-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <20031121010712.3C3F31F5B9B@outbox.allstream.net> <3FBD7C1D.3020608@rogers.com> Message-ID: <2902.216.138.194.32.1069385984.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> > I think what we're really seeing is the commoditization of IT and > software rather than a collapse. Software development is still a viable > career choice, and I think it still will be for the forseeable future. I agree, with the caveat thqat what you are saying is vastly understated. We are heading at full speed towards a software driven world with personal IP addresses and computers integrated into every aspect of pur lives rather than installed as an afterthought (where we are now). It's going to take corporate software development to get us there. > The question is whether it will be for the kind of things you want to do > and the kind of environment that you want to do it in. > > Otherwise, if people are only in it for the money and will drop linux > when the dollars are gone, then fuck 'em and let 'em eat shit. If it's > really important to them, then they'll do it at home, on their own time, > for the love of it and to help out mankind and no other reason. Which is > a more noble ideal anyways. I'd rather work at Starbucks and have a > modest living coding for linux than be rich and code for BillyG and his > cabal of vermin. Funny that you want to work for yet another American Mega-corp. :) I wonder if we could exchange Linux here for OSS? AFAIK Linux is just the kernel, similar to other kernels at least in the fact that it can run a lot of *UNIX compatible software. I'm not worried about OSS disappearing any time soon. It will stick around if it remains powerful, flexible and free (as in speech), and another better solution doesn't happen by. > In fact, one could argue the less corporate interest and money being > pumped into linux, the better. The less american money in any case. Oh? Why is that? If a corporation wants to release a piece of software that will benefit those who use it, if it's available freely for all to use and contribute to, what's the beef? My own personal belief is that if it doesn't violate the license to use it, fill yer boots. -- Keith -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From blsonne-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Fri Nov 21 04:29:28 2003 From: blsonne-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Byron Sonne) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 23:29:28 -0500 Subject: IBM Linux Video, going OT... In-Reply-To: <2902.216.138.194.32.1069385984.squirrel-16UnNR4aCrhlws70yGkXPA@public.gmane.org> References: <20031121010712.3C3F31F5B9B@outbox.allstream.net> <3FBD7C1D.3020608@rogers.com> <2902.216.138.194.32.1069385984.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> Message-ID: <3FBD94A8.8000103@rogers.com> > Oh? Why is that? If a corporation wants to release a piece of software > that will benefit those who use it, if it's available freely for all to > use and contribute to, what's the beef? My own personal belief is that if > it doesn't violate the license to use it, fill yer boots. I'd argue that the only things worth anything are those that you can't put a value on. Of course that becomes impractical so compromises are made, collectively and personally, that often times result in a great deal of good. You gotta get by somehow. But everything derived is tainted, however miniscule. So by eliminating money from the equation all together, it's a step towards operating in a karmic clean room, if you will :) Trying to live by your principles can be quite a challenge, and I am reminded of this by what I experienced as a vegetarian some years ago, though I am not any longer. Linux, OSS, freeware, BSD, it is just software when you look at it scientifically or rationally. But like discovering middle eastern food when you come from a basically meat-and-potatoes-eatin' family, it presents you with other options (and tasty ones too!) so you can live closer to the way you want to live. That's priceless. -- For good, return good. For evil, return justice. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From taavi-LbuTpDkqzNzXI80/IeQp7B2eb7JE58TQ at public.gmane.org Fri Nov 21 05:15:28 2003 From: taavi-LbuTpDkqzNzXI80/IeQp7B2eb7JE58TQ at public.gmane.org (Taavi Burns) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 00:15:28 -0500 Subject: macintosh ppclinux: how to get mouse to work? In-Reply-To: References: <3FBD78AF.3060902@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20031121051528.GA18722@hatefulsheep.ym.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> On Thu, Nov 20, 2003 at 09:58:27PM -0500, Max Blanco wrote: > No. It's an OldWorld beige G3 machine with a standard serial interface, > through the keyboard. > # dmesg | grep mouse > input0: Macintosh mouse button evaluation > ADB mouse at 3, handler set to 2 > mouse0: PS/2 mouse device for input2 > mouse1: PS/2 mouse device for input0 > mice: PS/2 mouse device common for all mice. If it's detecting as a PS/2 mouse, you're probably looking for /dev/psaux. -- taa /*eof*/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lists-Gb8Tj4xcA4YgsBAKwltoeQ at public.gmane.org Fri Nov 21 07:25:46 2003 From: lists-Gb8Tj4xcA4YgsBAKwltoeQ at public.gmane.org (Byron Q. Desnoyers Winmill) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 02:25:46 -0500 (EST) Subject: macintosh ppclinux: how to get mouse to work? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi, I don't know how to setup gpm (I don't use the mouse, and screen provides copy/paste capabities), but X11 is using /dev/input/mice with the imps/2 protocol. Perhaps you can use the same device and ps/2 to configure gpm. IIRC, you then have to change your X11 configuration (should one exist) so that it will cooperate with gpm. Byron. On Thu, 20 Nov 2003, Max Blanco wrote: > I cannot use my mouse as is. This is due to my lack of familiarity with > ppclinux. I do not know how to set up my gpm.conf, specifically, which > /dev file to use. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lists-Gb8Tj4xcA4YgsBAKwltoeQ at public.gmane.org Fri Nov 21 07:28:55 2003 From: lists-Gb8Tj4xcA4YgsBAKwltoeQ at public.gmane.org (Byron Q. Desnoyers Winmill) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 02:28:55 -0500 (EST) Subject: macintosh ppclinux: how to get mouse to work? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I guess I shouldn't have jumped the gun so quickly. If /dev/input/mice doesn't work, search for /dev/adbmouse. It should emulate a PS/2 mouse. Then again, dmesg is suggesting that /dev/input/mice will work. On Thu, 20 Nov 2003, Max Blanco wrote: > # dmesg | grep mouse > input0: Macintosh mouse button evaluation > ADB mouse at 3, handler set to 2 > mouse0: PS/2 mouse device for input2 > mouse1: PS/2 mouse device for input0 > mice: PS/2 mouse device common for all mice. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From kmastin-PzQIwG9Jn9VAFePFGvp55w at public.gmane.org Fri Nov 21 10:00:15 2003 From: kmastin-PzQIwG9Jn9VAFePFGvp55w at public.gmane.org (Keith Mastin) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 05:00:15 -0500 (EST) Subject: IBM Linux Video, going OT... In-Reply-To: <3FBD94A8.8000103-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <20031121010712.3C3F31F5B9B@outbox.allstream.net> <3FBD7C1D.3020608@rogers.com> <2902.216.138.194.32.1069385984.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> <3FBD94A8.8000103@rogers.com> Message-ID: <3015.216.138.194.32.1069408815.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> >> Oh? Why is that? If a corporation wants to release a piece of software >> that will benefit those who use it, if it's available freely for all to >> use and contribute to, what's the beef? My own personal belief is that >> if it doesn't violate the license to use it, fill yer boots. > > > > I'd argue that the only things worth anything are those that you can't > put a value on. I would agree if you were referring to family or mom's special apple pie, but not for software. Computers, like homes, cost money. Yes, one could live without either, but I personally don't want to. I like making a living by playing with computers, and I like my home that it pays for. Both are valuated with a dollar figure. What makes OSS valuable is that we can do so much with it and that it works, not that it's free (as in beer). Put a price tag on it and people will pay (and yes, some will steal). Some of us just don't want stuff just because it's free (as in beer). There are plenty of free (as in beer) cardboard boxes that one could drag under a bridge instead of paying rent and bills. I think going to jail is free (asa in beer) too, but I'm not jumping at it just because it's free (as in beer). > Of course that becomes impractical so compromises are made, collectively > and personally, that often times result in a great deal of good. You > gotta get by somehow. But everything derived is tainted, however > miniscule. So by eliminating money from the equation all together, it's > a step towards operating in a karmic clean room, if you will :) Christian folks say that everyone is tainted until they die or something like that, but I don't think they condone not living because of it. Knowing nothing about karma (or Christian religion, obviously), I think that contributing to OSS projects (yes, even by using them) is plenty. Someone mentioned that they don't use postfix because it's released freely (as in beer, not as in speech) under an IBM license. So what about qmail? It's not GPL, so does that make it bad? Does the fact that both of these freely (again, only as in beer) available software are emphatically superior to other (free, as in beer) mail server software make any difference, or should they both be shunned because they are not GPL? Does this make the GPL a religion, or just something else to be zealotreous over? What if someone writes a piece of software while in University under a corporate scholarship while studying to become some kind of software guru dude? Should karma also shut down that software and keep it from being used freely? Think deep before answering that one, it may have a shotgun hidden deep within it somewhere. :) > Trying to live by your principles can be quite a challenge, and I am > reminded of this by what I experienced as a vegetarian some years ago, > though I am not any longer. Linux, OSS, freeware, BSD, it is just > software when you look at it scientifically or rationally. But like > discovering middle eastern food when you come from a basically > meat-and-potatoes-eatin' family, it presents you with other options (and > tasty ones too!) so you can live closer to the way you want to live. > That's priceless. In an OSS vs. M$ sort of way maybe. I have no problems paying for anythng that works the way I want it to. And so Linux has a value that is worth paying for, IMHO. I have no opinion on the meatless food, as I'm an adamantly strong respector of lots of cooked dead animal parts in my diet. :p -- Keith -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From fcsoft-rxKNY4w4koG3ikBYyZqyVg at public.gmane.org Fri Nov 21 12:43:03 2003 From: fcsoft-rxKNY4w4koG3ikBYyZqyVg at public.gmane.org (bob findlay) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 07:43:03 -0500 Subject: IBM Linux Video In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20031121123702.3230E1F5C68@outbox.allstream.net> On November 20, 2003 10:32 pm, you wrote: > On Thu, 20 Nov 2003, bob findlay wrote: > > Unfortunately, with the recent collapse of software development as a > > viable career choice there soon won't be enough experienced developers > > left (outside of those employed by the big boys - IBM, HP, SGI, Novell) > > to keep the developer diversity that Linux needs to thrive. > > Plenty of people are still employed in software development, by no means > all at big companies. The software industry is thriving, by any ordinary > standards; only by comparison with the dot-com hysteria of a few years ago > is it in a slump. > > Henry Spencer > henry-lqW1N6Cllo10IscgpWfJZA at public.gmane.orgnet By some measures the software development industry has shrunk by 60% in less than 3 years. Yes one could argue that there was a huge runup for the Y2K fraud and the dotcom hysteria. Unfortunately, the "correction" has gone way beyond that in my opinion. In my network of developers alone we currently have about 95% unemployment rate. One promising 30 some developer is training to be a bus driver because he simply can't find employment. Young kids are shunning programming as a career option. Yes plenty of people are still employed in IT, but it is a far cry from being able to do PHP or JAVA webprogramming to being a kernel developer or an embedded Linux developer. My point was simply that if we don't find a way to get the young kids back into software development as a career option then pretty soon we won't have the skills base to make sizable contributions to the open source code base from this country anyway. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Fri Nov 21 12:36:40 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 07:36:40 -0500 Subject: IBM Linux Video In-Reply-To: <3FBD8209.9060400-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <000901c3af69$e6bf00d0$6401a8c0@main> <3FBCDB38.30908@pcsecurityonline.com> <3FBD8209.9060400@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20031121073640.07c008f0.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Thu, 20 Nov 2003 22:10:01 -0500 James Knott wrote: > Curious thing. Even though I have RealPlayer 8 for Linux installed, > that web site says I don't. I had to run XP to see the video. ...but do you have the plugin for your browser? At least in my experience, I had to install both, the plugin I use is called mozilla-realplayer. It's prolly easier to just download the video the way suggested above, google for prodigy90_med.mpg. -- JoeHill Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "Reality is what you can get away with." -- Robert Anton Wilson -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Fri Nov 21 12:54:40 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 07:54:40 -0500 Subject: IBM Linux Video, going OT... In-Reply-To: <3015.216.138.194.32.1069408815.squirrel-16UnNR4aCrhlws70yGkXPA@public.gmane.org> References: <20031121010712.3C3F31F5B9B@outbox.allstream.net> <3FBD7C1D.3020608@rogers.com> <2902.216.138.194.32.1069385984.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> <3FBD94A8.8000103@rogers.com> <3015.216.138.194.32.1069408815.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> Message-ID: <20031121075440.3de0de07.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 05:00:15 -0500 (EST) "Keith Mastin" wrote: > >> Oh? Why is that? If a corporation wants to release a piece of software > >> that will benefit those who use it, if it's available freely for all to > >> use and contribute to, what's the beef? My own personal belief is that > >> if it doesn't violate the license to use it, fill yer boots. > > > > > > > > I'd argue that the only things worth anything are those that you can't > > put a value on. That's kind of a contradiction, no? Money, or whatever you want to call a means of exchange, is not evil, it is the way that means of exchange is modelled that leads to problems. ie., money is not the root of all evil, bankers are ;-) > I would agree if you were referring to family or mom's special apple pie, > but not for software. Computers, like homes, cost money. Yes, one could > live without either, but I personally don't want to. I like making a > living by playing with computers, and I like my home that it pays for. > Both are valuated with a dollar figure. > > What makes OSS valuable is that we can do so much with it and that it > works, not that it's free (as in beer). Put a price tag on it and people > will pay (and yes, some will steal). > > Some of us just don't want stuff just because it's free (as in beer). > There are plenty of free (as in beer) cardboard boxes that one could drag > under a bridge instead of paying rent and bills. I think going to jail is > free (asa in beer) too, but I'm not jumping at it just because it's free > (as in beer). I don't think the problem lies in whether software is free (as in beer) or free (as in speech), it's with the clash of two inherantly contradictory economic models. Someone on this list, I can't remember who, pointed out that there are alternative monetary or "exchange" models that fit better with the OSS philosophy/modus. The problem we are seeing now with SCO, MS, etc. is that the current mode of exchange tends toward monopoly, thus the OSS model is anathema to the bankers and lawyers and corporate bureaucrats (oh my!) who want to concentrate everything around some outdated concept of ownership. This is where we get fiasco's like the DMCA, Palladium, etc. -- JoeHill Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "The philosophers have only interpreted the world in various ways. The point, however, is to change it."-- Karl Marx -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Fri Nov 21 13:00:08 2003 From: fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Fraser Campbell) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 08:00:08 -0500 Subject: Debian servers hacked? Message-ID: <200311210800.08931.fraser@wehave.net> I hate to fan the flames of rumour but just in case this is true I thought I should forward. I've seen a link stating that the archives (binaries/sources) are fine but nothing has come directly to me yet that was from "official" sources ... I download all updates automatically every night to my servers but do not install them. Last night I downloaded 9 packages which seemed unusual. Looking closer I could see the packages came from the main Debian archive (not security) which seemed even more unusual. I checked debian-user to see if there were reports of any funny stuff. So far this is what I know: - Debian 3.0r2 was scheduled to be released today, it hit the mirrors last night and is "out there" though not yet announced, this would explain the new packages - Many of the 9 packages are rather typical of ones that get trojaned, they're also typical of the ones that get security updates mind you: bsdutils_1%3a2.11n-7_i386.deb console-data_1999.08.29-24.2_all.deb procmail_3.22-5_i386.deb debianutils_1.16.2woody1_i386.deb procps_1%3a2.0.7-8.woody1_i386.deb util-linux_2.11n-7_i386.deb mount_2.11n-7_i386.deb zlib1g_1%3a1.1.4-1.0woody0_i386.deb nano_1.0.6-3_i386.deb - Someone forwarded a link to an announcemet supposedly from debian-announce http://cert.uni-stuttgart.de/files/fw/debian-security-20031121.txt Maybe the packages are trojaned, maybe they aren't ... I ain't installing them yet ;-) My hope is that someone on Debian user just pulled a well timed joke. -- Fraser Campbell http://www.wehave.net/ Georgetown, Ontario, Canada Debian GNU/Linux -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Fri Nov 21 12:59:38 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 07:59:38 -0500 Subject: IBM Linux Video In-Reply-To: <20031121123702.3230E1F5C68-pwyU32sTfCqP7boJH+kiu+TW4wlIGRCZ@public.gmane.org> References: <20031121123702.3230E1F5C68@outbox.allstream.net> Message-ID: <20031121075938.24129f02.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 07:43:03 -0500 bob findlay wrote: > By some measures the software development industry has shrunk by 60% in less > than 3 years. Yes one could argue that there was a huge runup for the Y2K > fraud and the dotcom hysteria. Unfortunately, the "correction" has gone > way beyond that in my opinion. In my network of developers alone we > currently have about 95% unemployment rate. One promising 30 some developer > is training to be a bus driver because he simply can't find employment. > Young kids are shunning programming as a career option. ...but is this because the *demand* for software developers has gone down overall, or is it because so many corporations try to benefit their bottom line in the short term by outsourcing development to countries that don't pay too much attention to international laws regarding exploitation of labour? > Yes plenty of people are still employed in IT, but it is a far cry from > being able to do PHP or JAVA webprogramming to being a kernel developer or an > embedded Linux developer. > > My point was simply that if we don't find a way to get the young kids back > into software development as a career option then pretty soon we won't have > the skills base to make sizable contributions to the open source code base > from this country anyway. No argument there. -- JoeHill Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "The philosophers have only interpreted the world in various ways. The point, however, is to change it."-- Karl Marx -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lance-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Fri Nov 21 19:54:25 2003 From: lance-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Lance F. Squire) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 14:54:25 -0500 Subject: Firewall wizards... Message-ID: <3FBE6D71.5000305@alteeve.com> I know nothing will be as good as wrighting your own rules, but... What is the best Firewall gui/wizard out there. Lance -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Fri Nov 21 20:00:23 2003 From: fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Fraser Campbell) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 15:00:23 -0500 Subject: Firewall wizards... In-Reply-To: <3FBE6D71.5000305-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <3FBE6D71.5000305@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <200311211500.23946.fraser@wehave.net> On Friday 21 November 2003 14:54, Lance F. Squire wrote: > What is the best Firewall gui/wizard out there. Shorewall, the editor is the gui. -- Fraser Campbell http://www.wehave.net/ Halton Hills, Ontario, Canada Debian GNU/Linux -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lloyd-fEEwcc3XMu8jODpR/OX0VQ at public.gmane.org Fri Nov 21 20:12:27 2003 From: lloyd-fEEwcc3XMu8jODpR/OX0VQ at public.gmane.org (lloyd-fEEwcc3XMu8jODpR/OX0VQ at public.gmane.org) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 15:12:27 -0500 (EST) Subject: access to Mandrake install over the net Message-ID: <1349.65.48.156.111.1069445547.squirrel@www.foolswisdom.com> Based on everyone's commentary recently, I am looking to try an install of Mandrake (again been a long time) or SUSE. I am leaning towards SUSE as it is more accessible. I cannot find a small iso for net based install. Nor are the full images really that accessible: - mandrake.com does not seem to give any access to non-members - torrent (novasearch.net) is not torrential (few peers) - linuxiso.org timed out after multiple attempts Thanks, Lloyd -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From blanco-S8qYAnHmZTt34ZA5RureAJ4VBq8PJc8F at public.gmane.org Fri Nov 21 20:47:29 2003 From: blanco-S8qYAnHmZTt34ZA5RureAJ4VBq8PJc8F at public.gmane.org (Max Blanco) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 15:47:29 -0500 (EST) Subject: macintosh ppclinux: how to get mouse to work? In-Reply-To: <20031121051528.GA18722-9xiANKxwco42bRTacqR3/JR8nzhMnQZF/mqnPsBvoffFpvyHdVPjngC/G2K4zDHf@public.gmane.org> References: <20031121051528.GA18722@hatefulsheep.ym.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 21 Nov 2003, Taavi Burns wrote: > On Thu, Nov 20, 2003 at 09:58:27PM -0500, Max Blanco wrote: > > No. It's an OldWorld beige G3 machine with a standard serial interface, > > through the keyboard. > > # dmesg | grep mouse > > input0: Macintosh mouse button evaluation > > ADB mouse at 3, handler set to 2 > > mouse0: PS/2 mouse device for input2 > > mouse1: PS/2 mouse device for input0 > > mice: PS/2 mouse device common for all mice. > > If it's detecting as a PS/2 mouse, you're probably > looking for /dev/psaux. yes, but that is what I have /etc/gpm.conf looking at, with no sign of a mouse there. weird... suggestions welcome. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From skuznets-WRMZ5ucGVl4BXFe83j6qeQ at public.gmane.org Fri Nov 21 21:49:37 2003 From: skuznets-WRMZ5ucGVl4BXFe83j6qeQ at public.gmane.org (Sergey Kuznetsov) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 16:49:37 -0500 Subject: access to Mandrake install over the net In-Reply-To: <1349.65.48.156.111.1069445547.squirrel-zSS9becEkFt1ArK9tKgR/kEOCMrvLtNR@public.gmane.org> References: <1349.65.48.156.111.1069445547.squirrel@www.foolswisdom.com> Message-ID: <200311211649.37362.skuznets@blueprint.org> On November 21, 2003 03:12 pm, lloyd-fEEwcc3XMu8jODpR/OX0VQ at public.gmane.org wrote: > Based on everyone's commentary recently, I am looking to try an install of > Mandrake (again been a long time) or SUSE. I am leaning towards SUSE as > it is more accessible. I cannot find a small iso for net based install. > Nor are the full images really that accessible: > - mandrake.com does not seem to give any access to non-members > - torrent (novasearch.net) is not torrential (few peers) > - linuxiso.org timed out after multiple attempts You can install it from ftp.secsup.org. Very fast and updated FTP mirror. -- All the Best! ----------------- Sergey Kuznetsov Senior Software Developer Blueprint Initiative Samuel Lunenfeld Research Institute at Mount Sinai Hospital -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From blanco-S8qYAnHmZTt34ZA5RureAJ4VBq8PJc8F at public.gmane.org Fri Nov 21 22:05:33 2003 From: blanco-S8qYAnHmZTt34ZA5RureAJ4VBq8PJc8F at public.gmane.org (Max Blanco) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 17:05:33 -0500 (EST) Subject: macintosh ppclinux: how to get mouse to work? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 21 Nov 2003, Byron Q. Desnoyers Winmill wrote: > I guess I shouldn't have jumped the gun so quickly. If /dev/input/mice > doesn't work, search for /dev/adbmouse. It should emulate a PS/2 mouse. > Then again, dmesg is suggesting that /dev/input/mice will work. I have a /dev/adb. Will that work? I will put /dev/adb into /etc/gpm.conf and see... nope, still no response. # tail -f /dev/adb or # tail -f /dev/psaux don't work because they are special devices and tail doesn't work with special devices. # dmesg | grep -i adb adb devices: [2] 2 1 [3]: 3 1 ADB keyboard at 2, handler 1 Detected ADB keyboard, type ANSI input1: ADB HID on ID 2:2.01 ADB mouse at 3, handler set to 2 input2: ADB HID on ID 3:3.01 If anybody can figure this out, I'd be pleased to hear from you... I have an idea: the mouse is connected to the keyboard. Therefore, the keyboard device will be the mouse device? Which is the keyboard device on macppc?? Argh. Byron: does your mouse connect through your keyboard? Byron: do you have gpm set up? Byron: Is your keyboard a usb device? tia, max. > On Thu, 20 Nov 2003, Max Blanco wrote: > > # dmesg | grep mouse > > input0: Macintosh mouse button evaluation > > ADB mouse at 3, handler set to 2 > > mouse0: PS/2 mouse device for input2 > > mouse1: PS/2 mouse device for input0 > > mice: PS/2 mouse device common for all mice. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From aacton-B71PBEe7S7Y at public.gmane.org Fri Nov 21 23:19:22 2003 From: aacton-B71PBEe7S7Y at public.gmane.org (Austin) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 18:19:22 -0500 Subject: access to Mandrake install over the net In-Reply-To: <1349.65.48.156.111.1069445547.squirrel-zSS9becEkFt1ArK9tKgR/kEOCMrvLtNR@public.gmane.org> References: <1349.65.48.156.111.1069445547.squirrel@www.foolswisdom.com> Message-ID: <1069456759.2494.2.camel@gamma373-365.portable.resnet.yorku.ca> On Fri, 2003-11-21 at 15:12, lloyd-fEEwcc3XMu8jODpR/OX0VQ at public.gmane.org wrote: > Based on everyone's commentary recently, I am looking to try an install of > Mandrake (again been a long time) or SUSE. I am leaning towards SUSE as > it is more accessible. I cannot find a small iso for net based install. > Nor are the full images really that accessible: > - mandrake.com does not seem to give any access to non-members > - torrent (novasearch.net) is not torrential (few peers) > - linuxiso.org timed out after multiple attempts Are you kidding? SuSE is surely the least accessible distro. Mandrake has many mirrors... there is a list at http://www.mandrakelinux.com/en/ftp.php3 You can download the ISO, or you can download a floppy image and install over the net. Austin -- Austin Acton Synthetic Organic Chemist, Teaching Assistant, Ph.D. Candidate Department of Chemistry, York University, Toronto MandrakeLinux Volunteer Developer, homepage: www.groundstate.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Fri Nov 21 23:38:23 2003 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 18:38:23 -0500 Subject: IBM Linux Video In-Reply-To: <20031121073640.07c008f0.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <000901c3af69$e6bf00d0$6401a8c0@main> <3FBCDB38.30908@pcsecurityonline.com> <3FBD8209.9060400@rogers.com> <20031121073640.07c008f0.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <3FBEA1EF.9040802@rogers.com> JoeHill wrote: > On Thu, 20 Nov 2003 22:10:01 -0500 > James Knott wrote: > > >>Curious thing. Even though I have RealPlayer 8 for Linux installed, >>that web site says I don't. I had to run XP to see the video. > > > ...but do you have the plugin for your browser? At least in my experience, I had > to install both, the plugin I use is called mozilla-realplayer. > > It's prolly easier to just download the video the way suggested above, google > for prodigy90_med.mpg. > I installed RealPlayer for Linux, and some realplayer filetype showed up in "About Pluggins". However, I'll look for that mozilla=realplayer and see if that helps. tnx -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From blanco-S8qYAnHmZTt34ZA5RureAJ4VBq8PJc8F at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 22 01:05:58 2003 From: blanco-S8qYAnHmZTt34ZA5RureAJ4VBq8PJc8F at public.gmane.org (Max Blanco) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 20:05:58 -0500 (EST) Subject: solved! Re:macintosh ppclinux: how to get mouse to work? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: For the record: * the package "mdetect" detects mice <--that was what solved the problem! * caution: the debian "dselect" utility does not let one search under the "description" field; * the package could be named "mousetrap" to resolve this difficulty; * "less /var/lib/dpkg/available" treats text like text, as contrasted with "dselect"; * the default for the "gpm" package was faulty for my G3-266; * on my OldWorld G3-266 beige powerpc, "/usr/input/mouse0" is the mouse device * all other gpm defaults seem fine (type=autops2) Thanks to all who contributed to my two-day search. On Fri, 21 Nov 2003, Max Blanco wrote: > On Fri, 21 Nov 2003, Byron Q. Desnoyers Winmill wrote: > > > I guess I shouldn't have jumped the gun so quickly. If /dev/input/mice > > doesn't work, search for /dev/adbmouse. It should emulate a PS/2 mouse. > > Then again, dmesg is suggesting that /dev/input/mice will work. > > I have a /dev/adb. Will that work? I will put /dev/adb into > /etc/gpm.conf and see... nope, still no response. > > # tail -f /dev/adb > or > # tail -f /dev/psaux > don't work because they are special devices and tail doesn't work with > special devices. > > # dmesg | grep -i adb > adb devices: [2] 2 1 [3]: 3 1 > ADB keyboard at 2, handler 1 > Detected ADB keyboard, type ANSI > input1: ADB HID on ID 2:2.01 > ADB mouse at 3, handler set to 2 > input2: ADB HID on ID 3:3.01 > > If anybody can figure this out, I'd be pleased to hear from you... > > I have an idea: the mouse is connected to the keyboard. Therefore, the > keyboard device will be the mouse device? Which is the keyboard device on > macppc?? > > Argh. > > Byron: does your mouse connect through your keyboard? > Byron: do you have gpm set up? > Byron: Is your keyboard a usb device? > > tia, > max. > > > On Thu, 20 Nov 2003, Max Blanco wrote: > > > # dmesg | grep mouse > > > input0: Macintosh mouse button evaluation > > > ADB mouse at 3, handler set to 2 > > > mouse0: PS/2 mouse device for input2 > > > mouse1: PS/2 mouse device for input0 > > > mice: PS/2 mouse device common for all mice. > > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From gstrom-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 22 03:15:36 2003 From: gstrom-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org (Glen Strom) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 22:15:36 -0500 Subject: Lindows Moving into Canada Message-ID: <20031121221536.566c11e7.gstrom@eol.ca> Globe and Mail story http://www.globetechnology.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20031120.gtlind1120/BNStory/Technology/ -- Glen Strom gstrom-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From vlinux-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 22 03:30:09 2003 From: vlinux-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Peter V) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 22:30:09 -0500 Subject: Fw: [TLUG-ANNOUNCE]: Jon 'maddog' Hall coming to U Waterloo Message-ID: <001e01c3b0a8$eea91ac0$a0252a18@home> > I'm a Computer Science student from the University of Waterloo. We've > arranged to have Jon 'maddog' Hall come to the University of Waterloo on > December 1, 2003. Is anybody going to go? I don't have a car, so maybe somebody would give me a ride. I will pay half price for gas even. Please email me privately. Peter Vernigorov vlinux-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 22 06:32:40 2003 From: clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (CLIFFORD ILKAY) Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2003 01:32:40 -0500 Subject: access to Mandrake install over the net In-Reply-To: <1349.65.48.156.111.1069445547.squirrel-zSS9becEkFt1ArK9tKgR/kEOCMrvLtNR@public.gmane.org > References: <1349.65.48.156.111.1069445547.squirrel@www.foolswisdom.com > Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20031122012831.02a34008@localhost> At 15:12 21/11/2003 -0500, lloyd-fEEwcc3XMu8jODpR/OX0VQ at public.gmane.org wrote: >Based on everyone's commentary recently, I am looking to try an install of >Mandrake (again been a long time) or SUSE. I am leaning towards SUSE as >it is more accessible. I cannot find a small iso for net based install. >Nor are the full images really that accessible: >- mandrake.com does not seem to give any access to non-members Not true. You can get past that page by agreeing to become a Mandrake Club member in the future. To save you the trouble and to be gentle to the Mandrake mirrors, if you will be going to the NewTLUG meeting next Tuesday night, I could bring Mandrake 9.2 CDs for you if you wish. Alternately, we can arrange for you to pick them up or if you are on my way, I can drop them off. Regards, Clifford Ilkay Dinamis Corporation 3266 Yonge Street, Suite 1419 Toronto, Ontario Canada M4N 3P6 Tel: 416-410-3326 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From teddymills-VFlxZYho3OA at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 22 08:06:05 2003 From: teddymills-VFlxZYho3OA at public.gmane.org (Teddy Mills) Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2003 03:06:05 -0500 Subject: Teddys iptables firewall script needs tweaking Message-ID: <000d01c3b0cf$7eab72f0$0301a8c0@amazon> Okay...heres the firewall script i am using. I was not an openrelay, but somehow someone from Asia found a way to use my qmail as an openrelay until I enabled some iptable rules. (not sure what rule stopped them) Most everything here works, they only thing I notice now is that the internet is slower now and I cannot send out email using my squirrelmail/qmail. So the things I need advice on are... Q1. Is this script slowing me down? I would like to keep all the rules together according to their network interfaces...ie all ppp0 and eth1 rules together. However if I do that, is it a performance hit? Is iptables is top-down? Do packets start at the top of the script and keep flowing down the script until they match a rule? Q2. How can I optimize or make this script cleaner? Q3. Can you see anything that prevents mail being sent out ? I want to prevent all incoming traffic on ppp0 except for 22,25,53,80,143. Outgoing traffic should be pretty clean? NETWORK INTERFACES ppp0 is adsl connection to the internet eth0 is dhcp and required by the adsl (but nothing exciting seems to happen on eth0) eth1 is 192.168.1.2 my linux MASQ/NAT internal ip Thanks in advance to all TLUG members! /teddy [root-v+aXH1h/sVw at public.gmane.org scripts]# cat firewall #!/bin/sh echo "Firewall 5.00 starting..." # **************************************** # Flushing all chains and reset iptables # **************************************** /sbin/iptables -F /sbin/iptables -F INPUT /sbin/iptables -F OUTPUT /sbin/iptables -F FORWARD /sbin/iptables -t nat -F /sbin/iptables -X /sbin/iptables -Z # ********************************************** # Now drop all packets on INPUT OUTPUT FORWARD # ********************************************* echo DROP INPUT chain /sbin/iptables -P INPUT DROP echo ACCEPT OUTPUT chain /sbin/iptables -P OUTPUT ACCEPt echo ACCEPT FORWARD chain /sbin/iptables -P FORWARD ACCEPT # **************************************************************** # ACCEPT established tcp session packets and fragmentated packets # **************************************************************** echo Accept fragmented packets /sbin/iptables -A FORWARD -f -j ACCEPT echo accept packets from an already established TCP connection /sbin/iptables -A FORWARD -m state -p tcp --state ESTABLISHED,RELATED -j ACCEPT # ********************************************************** # ppp0 INPUT and FORWARD rules # ********************************************************** echo SPOOF DROP incoming 192.168.0.0 packets from ppp0 /sbin/iptables -A INPUT -i ppp0 -s 192.168.0.0/24 -j DROP echo Dropping all incoming traffic on ppp0 /sbin/iptables -A INPUT -i ppp0 -j DROP echo allow incoming traffic only for ports 22 25 53 80 110 143 993 /sbin/iptables -A FORWARD -p tcp -i ppp0 --dport 22 -j ACCEPT /sbin/iptables -A FORWARD -p tcp -i ppp0 --dport 25 -j ACCEPT /sbin/iptables -A FORWARD -p tcp -i ppp0 --dport 53 -j ACCEPT /sbin/iptables -A FORWARD -p udp -i ppp0 --dport 53 -j ACCEPT /sbin/iptables -A FORWARD -p tcp -i ppp0 --dport 80 -j ACCEPT /sbin/iptables -A FORWARD -p tcp -i ppp0 --dport 110 -j ACCEPT /sbin/iptables -A FORWARD -p tcp -i ppp0 --dport 143 -j ACCEPT /sbin/iptables -A FORWARD -p tcp -i ppp0 --dport 993 -j ACCEPT # *************************************************************** # ppp0 OUTPUT and FORWARD rules # *************************************************************** echo Dropping all outgoing traffic on ppp0 /sbin/iptables -A OUTPUT -o ppp0 -j DROP echo allow outgoing ppp0 traffic only for ports 22 25 53 80 110 143 993 /sbin/iptables -A FORWARD -p tcp -o ppp0 --dport 22 -j ACCEPT /sbin/iptables -A FORWARD -p tcp -o ppp0 --dport 25 -j ACCEPT /sbin/iptables -A FORWARD -p tcp -o ppp0 --dport 53 -j ACCEPT /sbin/iptables -A FORWARD -p udp -o ppp0 --dport 53 -j ACCEPT /sbin/iptables -A OUTPUT -p tcp -o ppp0 --dport 53 -j ACCEPT /sbin/iptables -A FORWARD -p tcp -o ppp0 --dport 80 -j ACCEPT /sbin/iptables -A FORWARD -p tcp -o ppp0 --dport 110 -j ACCEPT /sbin/iptables -A FORWARD -p tcp -o ppp0 --dport 143 -j ACCEPT /sbin/iptables -A FORWARD -p tcp -o ppp0 --dport 993 -j ACCEPT echo allow everything on eth1 network /sbin/iptables -A INPUT -i eth1 -j ACCEPT /sbin/iptables -A OUTPUT -o eth1 -j ACCEPT /sbin/iptables -A FORWARD -i eth1 -j ACCEPT echo allow everything on the loopback interface /sbin/iptables -A INPUT -i lo -j ACCEPT /sbin/iptables -A OUTPUT -o lo -j ACCEPT /sbin/iptables -A FORWARD -i lo -j ACCEPT # ***************************************************** # Loading Iptable modules (enable if not kernel builtin) # ***************************************************** # /sbin/modprobe ip_tables # /sbin/modprobe ip_conntrack #Added this module # /sbin/modprobe ip_nat_ftp # /sbin/modprobe ip_conntrack_ftp # *************************************** # Kernel netfilter variables # *************************************** # echo Prevent SYN floods # echo "1" > /proc/sys/net/ipv4/tcp_syncookies echo Enable antispoofing filtering echo "1" > /proc/sys/net/ipv4/conf/all/rp_filter echo enable IP Dynamic address echo "1" > /proc/sys/net/ipv4/ip_dynaddr echo Enabling IP forwarding by kernel echo "1" > /proc/sys/net/ipv4/ip_forward echo Disable ICMP ping echo "1" > /proc/sys/net/ipv4/icmp_echo_ignore_all echo Disable ICMP redirect acceptance echo "0" > /proc/sys/net/ipv4/conf/all/accept_redirects echo Disable response to broadcasts echo "1" /proc/sys/net/ipv4/icmp_echo_ignore_broadcasts echo Dont accept source routed packets echo "0" /proc/sys/net/ipv4/conf/all/accept_source_route echo Enable bad error message protection echo "1" /proc/sys/net/ipv4/icmp_ignore_bogus_error_responses echo Log spoofed packets, source routed packets, redirect packets echo "1" /proc/sys/net/ipv4/conf/all/log_martians # ********************************************** # drop these nutbars # ********************************************* echo Drop that spammer bitch from China 218.70.8.186 /sbin/iptables -A INPUT -s 218.70.8.186/24 -j DROP /sbin/iptables -A INPUT -s 218.70.0.0/24 -j DROP # ***************************************** # NAT IPForwarding and Catchall and misc # ***************************************** echo Enable NAT/MASQUERADING and IPforwarding /sbin/iptables -t nat -A POSTROUTING -o ppp0 -j MASQUERADE # echo Catchall In case a packet made it here, drop all other traffic. # /sbin/iptables -A FORWARD -j DROP # echo Drop any incoming SMTP packets # /sbin/iptables -A INPUT -p tcp -i ppp0 -s 0/0 --dport 25 -j DROP --------------------------------------------------------------- teddy mills http://www.vger.ca Mad Magazine VGER directives... To collect...all that is collectable. To sell...all that is saleable.To merchandise...all that is merchandisable. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 22 13:11:22 2003 From: fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Fraser Campbell) Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2003 08:11:22 -0500 Subject: Lindows Moving into Canada In-Reply-To: <20031121221536.566c11e7.gstrom-MwcKTmeKVNQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20031121221536.566c11e7.gstrom@eol.ca> Message-ID: <200311220811.23183.fraser@wehave.net> On November 21, 2003 10:15 pm, Glen Strom wrote: > Globe and Mail story > > http://www.globetechnology.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20031120.gtlind1120/BNStory/Technology/ Not just Canada but if you read the Lindows release they're apparently moving into the "greater Canada area" ;-) -- Fraser Campbell http://www.wehave.net/ Georgetown, Ontario, Canada Debian GNU/Linux -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jzygmont-tEQKYFGiemxAYG7eUwYNkWD2FQJk+8+b at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 22 16:43:38 2003 From: jzygmont-tEQKYFGiemxAYG7eUwYNkWD2FQJk+8+b at public.gmane.org (Justin Zygmont) Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2003 11:43:38 -0500 (EST) Subject: Lindows Moving into Canada In-Reply-To: <200311220811.23183.fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org> References: <200311220811.23183.fraser@wehave.net> Message-ID: it must have been a canadian site that wrote that story, they're trying to make it sound like canada actually does something, just because lindows is being sold now. On Sat, 22 Nov 2003, Fraser Campbell wrote: > On November 21, 2003 10:15 pm, Glen Strom wrote: > > Globe and Mail story > > > > > http://www.globetechnology.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20031120.gtlind1120/BNStory/Technology/ > > Not just Canada but if you read the Lindows release they're apparently moving > into the "greater Canada area" ;-) > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From kmastin-PzQIwG9Jn9VAFePFGvp55w at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 22 17:18:48 2003 From: kmastin-PzQIwG9Jn9VAFePFGvp55w at public.gmane.org (Keith Mastin) Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2003 12:18:48 -0500 (EST) Subject: Teddys iptables firewall script needs tweaking In-Reply-To: <000d01c3b0cf$7eab72f0$0301a8c0-vAnPq90cUBg@public.gmane.org> References: <000d01c3b0cf$7eab72f0$0301a8c0@amazon> Message-ID: <3989.216.138.194.32.1069521528.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> > Okay...heres the firewall script i am using. > I was not an openrelay, but somehow someone from Asia found a way to > use my qmail as an openrelay until I enabled some iptable rules. (not > sure what rule stopped them) Most everything here works, they only > thing I notice now is that the internet is slower now and I cannot > send out email using my squirrelmail/qmail. Where is this script run? Is it on a dedicated firewall box, your desktop, ...the mail server? What are the hardware resources (CPU and RAM) it has available? > So the things I need advice on are... > > Q1. Is this script slowing me down? > I would like to keep all the rules together according to their network > interfaces...ie all ppp0 and eth1 rules together. Mmmm... not necessarily a good idea. See below... > However if I do that, is it a performance hit? Is iptables is > top-down? > Do packets start at the top of the script and keep flowing down the > script until they match a rule? Yes, the order of the rules *_is_everything_* > Q2. How can I optimize or make this script cleaner? >From what I could see, it looks to be disordered. Generally, we load the modules, define the chains, set the policies, lay out the rules. Yours is all over the place. Another thing is all the echos. Just comment those out and use them as markers for when you edit the script, but echoing them in the script doesn't make any sense. > Q3. Can you see anything that prevents mail being sent out ? ... Maybe this? /sbin/iptables -A OUTPUT -o ppp0 -j DROP > I want to prevent all incoming traffic on ppp0 except for > 22,25,53,80,143. > Outgoing traffic should be pretty clean? Outgoing traffic should pretty much all be above port 1024 > NETWORK INTERFACES > ppp0 is adsl connection to the internet > eth0 is dhcp and required by the adsl (but nothing exciting seems to > happen on eth0) > eth1 is 192.168.1.2 my linux MASQ/NAT internal ip Generally, I put eth0 on the INT_IFACE as it comes up first and I don't want the computer connecting to the 'net if I'm not there too. It could just be a personal thing, but it makes sense to me. As a side note Teddy, if someone can use your qmail as an open relay it has some serious configuration problems that don't normally exist for qmail. I think this is enough of an issue to take to the qmail list. The guys there will want to see some logs (and don't change any info or they'll disregard your post) and will ask some pointed questions, but they will help you solve it. If, on the other hand, someone in china has found a way to exploit an otherwise unknown vulnerability in qmail, that list should be made aware of it. I would be suprised to find that qmail was compromised without compromising another service daemon first and after entrance was gained that qmail was simply reconfigured. If you were running sans-firewall, I would suggest a full system audit and some heavy monitoring for a while. You don't necessarily need to look for a rootkit, as I suspect you were unknowingly running a honeypot as a server. -- Keith -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From kcozens-qazKcTl6WRFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 22 18:44:57 2003 From: kcozens-qazKcTl6WRFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Kevin Cozens) Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2003 13:44:57 -0500 Subject: Teddys iptables firewall script needs tweaking In-Reply-To: <000d01c3b0cf$7eab72f0$0301a8c0-vAnPq90cUBg@public.gmane.org> References: <000d01c3b0cf$7eab72f0$0301a8c0@amazon> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20031122131925.02267010@mail.interlog.com> At 03:06 AM 11/22/2003 -0500, teddy mills wrote: >I was not an openrelay, but somehow someone from Asia found a way to use my >qmail as an openrelay >teddy mills If someone was able to use your machine as an open mail relay and you are using Qmail, there is something very wrong with the configuration of your Qmail system. While it is a good thing to review your firewall settings, that is not the way to stop people from using your machine to relay mail. You need to look at how your Qmail is configured. The likely reason for Qmail acting as an open relay is you do not have an rcpthosts file in your /etc/qmail/control directory (or it may be under /var instead of /etc depending on how Qmail was installed). The rcpthosts file should contain a series of lines with one domain name on each line. The lines in this file are the list of domains for which Qmail will accept mail. IIRC, without this file, Qmail will accept mail for all domains. If the file is 0 bytes long, it will refuse mail regardless of the domain in the To: lines. There is usually a config and config-fast program in /var/qmail/bin which should be run when Qmail is first installed to set up the basic configuration files needed by Qmail. Cheers! Kevin. (http://www.interlog.com/~kcozens/) Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172 |"What are we going to do today, Borg?" E-mail:kcozens at interlog dot com|"Same thing we always do, Pinkutus: Packet:ve3syb-XXPEJ3/fxIc at public.gmane.org#con.on.ca.na| Try to assimilate the world!" #include | -Pinkutus & the Borg -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From kcozens-qazKcTl6WRFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 22 19:06:29 2003 From: kcozens-qazKcTl6WRFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Kevin Cozens) Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2003 14:06:29 -0500 Subject: 'Lindows heads north' article Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20031122140312.020796e0@pop> Greetings, all. What could be the scariest part of the article at: http://www.globetechnology.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20031120.gtlind1120/BNStory/Technology/ is probably in the first line of the last paragraph. >Mr. Dugas said that Lindows.com's main target is government sales. From the comments I have read so far, I think I would prefer the government to be running some other version of Linux rather than Lindows. Cheers! Kevin. (http://www.interlog.com/~kcozens/) Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172 |"What are we going to do today, Borg?" E-mail:kcozens at interlog dot com|"Same thing we always do, Pinkutus: Packet:ve3syb-XXPEJ3/fxIc at public.gmane.org#con.on.ca.na| Try to assimilate the world!" #include | -Pinkutus & the Borg -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From marvinin-NOBIIgrgD1YV+D8aMU/kSg at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 22 19:25:30 2003 From: marvinin-NOBIIgrgD1YV+D8aMU/kSg at public.gmane.org (Mark Vining) Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2003 14:25:30 -0500 Subject: Debian Updates Message-ID: <3FBFB82A.9000404@enoreo.on.ca> I just installed Debian on my computer and I am wondering what I need to do to get Linux to download all updates automatically. Can anyone suggest how to do this. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From teddymills-VFlxZYho3OA at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 22 19:33:39 2003 From: teddymills-VFlxZYho3OA at public.gmane.org (Teddy Mills) Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2003 14:33:39 -0500 Subject: Teddys iptables References: <5.2.1.1.0.20031122131925.02267010@mail.interlog.com> Message-ID: <002301c3b12f$8b8738a0$0301a8c0@amazon> Trust me Keith and Kevin, when I say I was not an openrelay, it is a fact. The fact that I know how to stop it is more important than knowing why I couldnt stop it. You might not agree with this statement, but I believe it to be true. Its like you goto the doctor and say, doc I got this disease, and he/she says well its terminal. iptables stops it, but I dont know why it stops it. the doc has just bought all the time he/she needs to investigate the why. I had very knowledable qmail admins guiding me to verify every setting and do various tests. I was not an openrelay. I spent 2 weeks on qmail every day, checking every line of the installation out, line by line. Every permission, every location of every file. System Security holes etc. Changed all passwords etc. I checked everything 100 times over. The qmail system is burned into my brain. rcpthosts as well as 1000 other things where checked dozens of times. Then after enabling qmail, anywhere from 5 minutes to a day later it would start to send hundreds of email a minute from anywhere to anywhere. I stopped qmail and all its processes and rm'd the entire qmail queue tree and rebuild them. Started up and wait for it to happen again... qmailctl stat ps ax |grep mail lsof -i |grep smtp, was interesting, it always had a tcp connection to a specific IP in Asian. ( Thats when I started closing in on him/her/them) then i started tcpdump tracing of all packets and just smtp packets... Nothing worked until I started adding iptables rules. My guess it was 1. something like a spoofed ip command to qmail. 2. a wrong file permission somewhere, or access right, either in apache, virtualhosting, cgi-bins, dns, etc. 3. But where ever the problem was, it sure is is not a misconfigured qmail or qmail tool. Heres the stripped log... 218.70.8.186::3292 tcpserver: pid 2230 from 218.70.8.186 tcpserver: ok 2230 x.x.x.x 218.70.8.186::3462 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin Cozens" To: Sent: Saturday, November 22, 2003 1:44 PM Subject: Re: [TLUG]: Teddys iptables firewall script needs tweaking > At 03:06 AM 11/22/2003 -0500, teddy mills wrote: > >I was not an openrelay, but somehow someone from Asia found a way to use my > >qmail as an openrelay > >teddy mills > > If someone was able to use your machine as an open mail relay and you are > using Qmail, there is something very wrong with the configuration of your > Qmail system. While it is a good thing to review your firewall settings, > that is not the way to stop people from using your machine to relay mail. > You need to look at how your Qmail is configured. > > The likely reason for Qmail acting as an open relay is you do not have an > rcpthosts file in your /etc/qmail/control directory (or it may be under > /var instead of /etc depending on how Qmail was installed). > > The rcpthosts file should contain a series of lines with one domain name on > each line. The lines in this file are the list of domains for which Qmail > will accept mail. IIRC, without this file, Qmail will accept mail for all > domains. If the file is 0 bytes long, it will refuse mail regardless of the > domain in the To: lines. > > There is usually a config and config-fast program in /var/qmail/bin which > should be run when Qmail is first installed to set up the basic > configuration files needed by Qmail. > > > Cheers! > > Kevin. (http://www.interlog.com/~kcozens/) > > Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172 |"What are we going to do today, Borg?" > E-mail:kcozens at interlog dot com|"Same thing we always do, Pinkutus: > Packet:ve3syb-XXPEJ3/fxIc at public.gmane.org#con.on.ca.na| Try to assimilate the world!" > #include | -Pinkutus & the Borg > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From marvinin-NOBIIgrgD1YV+D8aMU/kSg at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 22 19:31:05 2003 From: marvinin-NOBIIgrgD1YV+D8aMU/kSg at public.gmane.org (Mark Vining) Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2003 14:31:05 -0500 Subject: What are good Firewalls Message-ID: <3FBFB979.4080705@enoreo.on.ca> I have an extra P150 that I am going to set up as a firewall. Are there any good Debian Packages I should look at? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jason-2F8E0OLjuh154TAoqtyWWQ at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 22 20:31:04 2003 From: jason-2F8E0OLjuh154TAoqtyWWQ at public.gmane.org (Jason Slaughter) Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2003 15:31:04 -0500 Subject: PHP IDE for Linux Message-ID: I've been trying to find the perfect IDE for PHP programming on Linux, but so far I've been coming up short. Maybe I have unrealistic requirements, but I thought I should ask here to see if the TLUG has any insight. Up until now I've been doing all of my PHP programming in gvim. I love vi, and up until now gvim has done everything I want. However I've started working on more advanced PHP projects, and I'm finding myself in desperate need of some of the features that an IDE. Mostly I need a step-through debugger, but things like code completion and file management are nice too. Ideally I'd like to find the following: - IDE with support for PHP - Runs on Linux - step-through debugging (using dbg perhaps?) - "vim" compatible editor (this is the hard one :) ) I would settle for just using gvim with a step-through PHP debugger, but so far I haven't been able to find a way to do this. I looked at Quanta, but its debugger (dbg) has been purchased by the makers of PHPEd and it's now an IDE without a debugger. So I tried NuSphere's PHPEd and it seems pretty good but $300 US is a little steep (though not unreasonable), and of course it doesn't support vi cursor controls/etc. ;) So, does my Perfect PHP IDE(tm) exist or not? :) Jason -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 23 02:06:51 2003 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2003 21:06:51 -0500 Subject: NFS exporting of / Message-ID: <20031123020651.GA12806@node1.opengeometry.net> Using NFS, I used to be able to export root filesystem (/) of one machine and mount it on another machine. But, since upgrading to nfs-utils-1.0.6, I can't export / to other machines, or, rather, other machines can't mount / of NFS server. Log on the server is rpc.mountd: getfh failed: Operation not permitted Has there been change in the behaviour of NFS server? -- William Park, Open Geometry Consulting, Linux solution for data management and processing. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From marcus.brubaker-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 23 02:27:07 2003 From: marcus.brubaker-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Marcus Brubaker) Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2003 21:27:07 -0500 Subject: 'Lindows heads north' article In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20031122140312.020796e0-Y+x2PRVmZgc@public.gmane.org> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20031122140312.020796e0@pop> Message-ID: <1069554426.5664.59.camel@rincewind.discworld> On Sat, 2003-11-22 at 14:06, Kevin Cozens wrote: > Greetings, all. > > What could be the scariest part of the article at: > http://www.globetechnology.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20031120.gtlind1120/BNStory/Technology/ > is probably in the first line of the last paragraph. > > >Mr. Dugas said that Lindows.com's main target is government sales. > > From the comments I have read so far, I think I would prefer the > government to be running some other version of Linux rather than Lindows. > Lindows is about bottom on my list of Linux distribution choices. It's almost *worse* than Windows because it tries to run Windows apps but when they work worse than they did on Windows (since the Lindowsized version of WINE is definitely not perfect) Linux will take the blame. Of course, on the other hand, once they have machines running Lindows, transitions like MS Office to OO would be easier which could eventually lead to them selecting a better distro once Windows apps were no longer an issue. -- Marcus Brubaker -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jkls-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 22 21:17:10 2003 From: jkls-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (jkls) Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2003 16:17:10 -0500 Subject: Debian Updates In-Reply-To: <3FBFB82A.9000404-NOBIIgrgD1YV+D8aMU/kSg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FBFB82A.9000404@enoreo.on.ca> Message-ID: <3FBFD256.7020903@sympatico.ca> Here is a link for some good examples of using apt-get which is the package management tool. To update just setup your /etc/sources list. (See bottom of previous link for a sample sources.list) then run (as root) # apt-get update. Debian servers are up and down right now. (due the security incident?) I couldn't contact them on Thursday or this afternoon. Mark Vining wrote: > I just installed Debian on my computer and I am wondering what I need > to do to get Linux to download all updates automatically. > > Can anyone suggest how to do this. > > > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 23 02:26:50 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2003 21:26:50 -0500 Subject: Toronto going Open Source Message-ID: <20031122212650.4f5e4578.joehill@sympatico.ca> Thought those of you who were talking about organizing a proposal for T.O. to go Linux might be interested in this. http://www.newsforge.com/article.pl?sid=03/11/20/1628212 On March 5, Oregon became the first state in U.S. history to formally consider legislation relating to government acquisition of Open Source software. Within two weeks a similar bill was introduced into the Texas state legislature. Microsoft-funded lobbyists descended in swarms upon both capitols to destroy the proposals. Anyone interested in working for Open Source-related legislation elsewhere would do well to study what happened. -- JoeHill Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "If the Nuremberg laws were applied, then every post-war American president would have been hanged."-- Noam Chomsky -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From kmastin-PzQIwG9Jn9VAFePFGvp55w at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 22 21:27:50 2003 From: kmastin-PzQIwG9Jn9VAFePFGvp55w at public.gmane.org (Keith Mastin) Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2003 16:27:50 -0500 (EST) Subject: PHP IDE for Linux In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4895.216.138.194.32.1069536470.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> > So, does my Perfect PHP IDE(tm) exist or not? :) I was looking for somethng similar a few months back. Debugging is the problem, and I found nothing that matched. If you do any better, let us know, as I would be interested in finding a better solution. -- Keith -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From aitken-BwLjziHGQLusTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 22 21:49:36 2003 From: aitken-BwLjziHGQLusTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Chris Aitken) Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2003 16:49:36 -0500 Subject: circles Message-ID: <3FBFD9EF.10C4E7AF@onlink.net> I'll probably be shot for posting this question here but I'm going around in circles. If you can humour me maybe I can do a good turn for someone myself. I have been looking into working as a teacher in Portugal. I am looking for a mailing list (discussion list?) to meet others who have done this. Any ideas? I'm googling my fingers to death but all I'm coming up with are companies that want to be a step between me and what I want to do (and I may in fact need them, TEFL courses et al - but I want to speak with some people that have nothing to gain first). Chris -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 22 21:32:08 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2003 16:32:08 -0500 Subject: Debian Updates In-Reply-To: <3FBFB82A.9000404-NOBIIgrgD1YV+D8aMU/kSg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FBFB82A.9000404@enoreo.on.ca> Message-ID: <20031122163208.0d02c014.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 14:25:30 -0500 Mark Vining wrote: > > I just installed Debian on my computer and I am wondering what I need to > do to get Linux to download all updates automatically. > > Can anyone suggest how to do this. best bet is to use Webmin to set up a cron job. Webmin is usually installed as part of any distro, but if not, you know, apt-get install webmin. Open a browser, type: https://localhost:10000 log in as root, and set up a cron job to run the appropriate command, say, daily or weekly. -- JoeHill Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "One of the most dangerous errors of our time is the belief that human beings are uniquely violent animals, barely restrained from committing atrocities on each other by the constraints of ethics, religion, and the state." -- Eric S. Raymond -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jkls-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 22 21:22:05 2003 From: jkls-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (jkls) Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2003 16:22:05 -0500 Subject: Debian servers hacked? In-Reply-To: <200311210800.08931.fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org> References: <200311210800.08931.fraser@wehave.net> Message-ID: <3FBFD37D.405@sympatico.ca> In other recent news a file on kernel.org was nearly trojaned. Apparently the FSF was hacked recently too. So I heard at work. I couldn't contact www.debian.org this afternoon. Fraser Campbell wrote: >I hate to fan the flames of rumour but just in case this is true I thought I >should forward. I've seen a link stating that the archives >(binaries/sources) are fine but nothing has come directly to me yet that was >from "official" sources ... > >I download all updates automatically every night to my servers but do not >install them. Last night I downloaded 9 packages which seemed unusual. >Looking closer I could see the packages came from the main Debian archive >(not security) which seemed even more unusual. > >I checked debian-user to see if there were reports of any funny stuff. So far >this is what I know: > >- Debian 3.0r2 was scheduled to be released today, it hit the mirrors last > night and is "out there" though not yet announced, this would explain the > new packages > >- Many of the 9 packages are rather typical of ones that get trojaned, they're > also typical of the ones that get security updates mind you: > > bsdutils_1%3a2.11n-7_i386.deb > console-data_1999.08.29-24.2_all.deb > procmail_3.22-5_i386.deb > debianutils_1.16.2woody1_i386.deb > procps_1%3a2.0.7-8.woody1_i386.deb > util-linux_2.11n-7_i386.deb > mount_2.11n-7_i386.deb > zlib1g_1%3a1.1.4-1.0woody0_i386.deb > nano_1.0.6-3_i386.deb > >- Someone forwarded a link to an announcemet supposedly from debian-announce > > http://cert.uni-stuttgart.de/files/fw/debian-security-20031121.txt > >Maybe the packages are trojaned, maybe they aren't ... I ain't installing them >yet ;-) My hope is that someone on Debian user just pulled a well timed joke. > > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 22 23:14:06 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2003 18:14:06 -0500 Subject: Toronto going Open Source Message-ID: <20031122181406.275d4df7.joehill@sympatico.ca> Thought those of you who were talking about organizing a proposal for T.O. to go Linux might be interested in this. http://www.newsforge.com/article.pl?sid=03/11/20/1628212 On March 5, Oregon became the first state in U.S. history to formally consider legislation relating to government acquisition of Open Source software. Within two weeks a similar bill was introduced into the Texas state legislature. Microsoft-funded lobbyists descended in swarms upon both capitols to destroy the proposals. Anyone interested in working for Open Source-related legislation elsewhere would do well to study what happened. -- JoeHill Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "If the Nuremberg laws were applied, then every post-war American president would have been hanged."-- Noam Chomsky -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From dgenn-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 23 02:50:50 2003 From: dgenn-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (DanG) Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2003 21:50:50 -0500 Subject: Zope/Plone hosting providers in Toronto or Canada? Message-ID: <20031123024957.HBBP132452.fep01-mail.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com@pittlandctr8at> Hi gang, Anyone know of any Zope/Plone web hosting providers in Toronto or Canada. For a decent rate of course :-) Also for .ca registration as well. I need to register a .ca domain for cheap as well. Thanks -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From audiolab1-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 23 02:56:05 2003 From: audiolab1-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (Andrew Welker) Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2003 21:56:05 -0500 Subject: Improving Redhat 9 performance? In-Reply-To: <20031121221536.566c11e7.gstrom-MwcKTmeKVNQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20031121221536.566c11e7.gstrom@eol.ca> Message-ID: <3FC021C5.6080700@sympatico.ca> Hi all. I recently upgraded from Redhat 7.3 to 9 and I have found a significant reduction in performance. I am running a P-III, 800MHz machine with 192 Meg of RAM and a 40gig, 7200 rpm hard drive. I am running GNOME as my desktop. This machine is used primarily to surf the net, do some simple book-keeping and word processing. Internet connection is via Sympatico high-speed. Are there a number of utilities that might be running in the background that could be removed to improve performance? Basically, I am a basic linux user and want to get rid of anything that may be taxing the system that I really don't need. I have no interest in running remote access to this machine and I will never be configuring it as a server. Any hits would be greatly appreciated. Thanks! Andrew -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 22 21:27:27 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2003 16:27:27 -0500 Subject: What are good Firewalls In-Reply-To: <3FBFB979.4080705-NOBIIgrgD1YV+D8aMU/kSg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FBFB979.4080705@enoreo.on.ca> Message-ID: <20031122162727.2d02bebe.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 14:31:05 -0500 Mark Vining wrote: > I have an extra P150 that I am going to set up as a firewall. Are there > any good Debian Packages I should look at? I'm not too sure about Debian packages, but you can set up pretty kick-ass firewalls with any of these sol'ns: http://leaf.sourceforge.net/ or the one I use: http://www.bbiagent.net/ you don't even need an HD or CDROM drive in the machine, if that's the way you wanna go. The king of 'em all, I suppose, though is Smoothwall: http://www.smoothwall.org/ that one I believe runs off of a CD, supposed to be the best (free as in beer) firewall you can get, unless you want to mess with configuring IPTables yourself with a full-blown distribution install like Debian. -- JoeHill Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "The free communication of ideas and opinions is one of the most precious of the rights of man." -- Declaration of the Rights of Man -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jingsu-26n5VD7DAF2Tm46uYYfjYg at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 23 03:06:57 2003 From: jingsu-26n5VD7DAF2Tm46uYYfjYg at public.gmane.org (Jing Su) Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2003 22:06:57 -0500 Subject: Improving Redhat 9 performance? In-Reply-To: <3FC021C5.6080700-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <20031121221536.566c11e7.gstrom@eol.ca> <3FC021C5.6080700@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: On Sat, 22 Nov 2003, Andrew Welker wrote: > I recently upgraded from Redhat 7.3 to 9 and I have found a significant > reduction in performance. What do you mean by a reduction in performance? Are disk writes slow? Does the GUI feel unresponsive? X graphical draws obviously slow? Do applications load slower? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From dgenn-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 23 03:15:13 2003 From: dgenn-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (DanG) Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2003 22:15:13 -0500 Subject: Improving Redhat 9 performance? In-Reply-To: <3FC021C5.6080700-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FC021C5.6080700@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <20031123031426.ZLPN451303.fep02-mail.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com@pittlandctr8at> Andrew, If you are willing to try a distro change based on Redhat, I would suggest looking into using JAMD Linux which is an i686 optimized version of Redhat 9 specifically meant to be used as a Workstation or Desktop machine. You will be surprised at how fast it runs in comparison. http://www.jamd-linux.com/. Dan -----Original Message----- From: owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org [mailto:owner-tlug at ss.org] On Behalf Of Andrew Welker Sent: Saturday, November 22, 2003 9:56 PM To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Subject: [TLUG]: Improving Redhat 9 performance? Hi all. I recently upgraded from Redhat 7.3 to 9 and I have found a significant reduction in performance. I am running a P-III, 800MHz machine with 192 Meg of RAM and a 40gig, 7200 rpm hard drive. I am running GNOME as my desktop. This machine is used primarily to surf the net, do some simple book-keeping and word processing. Internet connection is via Sympatico high-speed. Are there a number of utilities that might be running in the background that could be removed to improve performance? Basically, I am a basic linux user and want to get rid of anything that may be taxing the system that I really don't need. I have no interest in running remote access to this machine and I will never be configuring it as a server. Any hits would be greatly appreciated. Thanks! Andrew -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 22 22:54:09 2003 From: fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Fraser Campbell) Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2003 17:54:09 -0500 Subject: Debian Updates In-Reply-To: <3FBFB82A.9000404-NOBIIgrgD1YV+D8aMU/kSg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FBFB82A.9000404@enoreo.on.ca> Message-ID: <200311221754.09575.fraser@wehave.net> On November 22, 2003 02:25 pm, Mark Vining wrote: > I just installed Debian on my computer and I am wondering what I need to > do to get Linux to download all updates automatically. > > Can anyone suggest how to do this. apt-get install cron-apt -- Fraser Campbell http://www.wehave.net/ Georgetown, Ontario, Canada Debian GNU/Linux -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From pking123-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 23 03:53:35 2003 From: pking123-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (Paul King) Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2003 22:53:35 -0500 Subject: LOTR and Linux? Message-ID: <3FBFE8EF.31864.9408C2@localhost> Hmm... Just bought the DVD of The Two Towers. I finisned watching the movie and was making my way through one of the feature DVDs (about the making of Gollum, I believe), and I was pretty sure I could make out that one of the animators was using a KDE desktop, especially after they had quite a few full-screen shots of the same running program. Could WETA be a Linux house? We could only hope. Paul ========================================================= Paul King http://www3.sympatico.ca/pking123/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 23 03:42:26 2003 From: clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (CLIFFORD ILKAY) Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2003 22:42:26 -0500 Subject: PHP IDE for Linux In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20031122223738.029dcf68@localhost> At 15:31 22/11/2003 -0500, Jason Slaughter wrote: [snip] >So, does my Perfect PHP IDE(tm) exist or not? :) Hi, A couple that you can consider, though they may not fit all of your criteria. 1. 2. What, if anything, are you using for a report generator for your PHP apps? I find this is a weak point of many tools. Regards, Clifford Ilkay Dinamis Corporation 3266 Yonge Street, Suite 1419 Toronto, Ontario Canada M4N 3P6 Tel: 416-410-3326 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From IlyaPalagin-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 22 21:46:02 2003 From: IlyaPalagin-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Ilya Palagin) Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2003 16:46:02 -0500 Subject: Teddys iptables In-Reply-To: <002301c3b12f$8b8738a0$0301a8c0-vAnPq90cUBg@public.gmane.org> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20031122131925.02267010@mail.interlog.com> <002301c3b12f$8b8738a0$0301a8c0@amazon> Message-ID: <3FBFD91A.1080207@rogers.com> Let's Analyze That :-) There are a some servers in internet which can check your mail server for relaying. Did you try them? If you DEFINITELY aren't an openrelay, but your mail server sends tons of junk shortly after smtpd service is started, this means at least one of the following: 1.Your qmail was trojaned and you can't fix it with configs 2.Your telnet, ssh, rsh or whatever remote access application is compromised and bad guys use it as a tunnel to your mailserver. For qmail this mail looks like local, and it relays it. The best way to find a source of this unauthorized data transfer is to execute `netstat -apn | grep LISTEN` before and after qmail is started and sends spam and compare both outputs. Also, you may keep a sniffer running to observe established/dropped connections and their IP addresses and ports. By the way, iptables may either accept of drop connections to services, it works on protocol level, while mail relaying is on application level, and they don't cross. Teddy Mills wrote: > > Trust me Keith and Kevin, when I say I was not an openrelay, it is a fact. > > The fact that I know how to stop it is more important than knowing why I > couldnt stop it. > > You might not agree with this statement, but I believe it to be true. Its > like you goto the doctor > and say, doc I got this disease, and he/she says well its terminal. iptables > stops it, but I dont > know why it stops it. the doc has just bought all the time he/she needs to > investigate the why. > > I had very knowledable qmail admins guiding me to verify every setting and > do various tests. > I was not an openrelay. > > I spent 2 weeks on qmail every day, checking every line of the installation > out, line by line. > Every permission, every location of every file. System Security holes etc. > Changed all passwords etc. I checked everything 100 times over. The qmail > system is > burned into my brain. rcpthosts as well as 1000 other things where checked > dozens of times. > > Then after enabling qmail, anywhere from 5 minutes to a day later it would > start to send hundreds of > email a minute from anywhere to anywhere. > > I stopped qmail and all its processes and rm'd the entire qmail queue tree > and rebuild them. > Started up and wait for it to happen again... > > qmailctl stat > ps ax |grep mail > lsof -i |grep smtp, was interesting, it always had a tcp connection to a > specific IP in Asian. > ( Thats when I started closing in on him/her/them) > then i started tcpdump tracing of all packets and just smtp packets... > > > Nothing worked until I started adding iptables rules. > > > My guess it was > > 1. something like a spoofed ip command to qmail. > 2. a wrong file permission somewhere, or access right, either in apache, > virtualhosting, cgi-bins, dns, etc. > 3. But where ever the problem was, it sure is is not a misconfigured qmail > or qmail tool. > > > Heres the stripped log... > > 218.70.8.186::3292 > tcpserver: pid 2230 from 218.70.8.186 > tcpserver: ok 2230 x.x.x.x 218.70.8.186::3462 > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Kevin Cozens" > To: > Sent: Saturday, November 22, 2003 1:44 PM > Subject: Re: [TLUG]: Teddys iptables firewall script needs tweaking > > > >>At 03:06 AM 11/22/2003 -0500, teddy mills wrote: >> >>>I was not an openrelay, but somehow someone from Asia found a way to use > > my > >>>qmail as an openrelay >>>teddy mills >> >>If someone was able to use your machine as an open mail relay and you are >>using Qmail, there is something very wrong with the configuration of your >>Qmail system. While it is a good thing to review your firewall settings, >>that is not the way to stop people from using your machine to relay mail. >>You need to look at how your Qmail is configured. >> >>The likely reason for Qmail acting as an open relay is you do not have an >>rcpthosts file in your /etc/qmail/control directory (or it may be under >>/var instead of /etc depending on how Qmail was installed). >> >>The rcpthosts file should contain a series of lines with one domain name > > on > >>each line. The lines in this file are the list of domains for which Qmail >>will accept mail. IIRC, without this file, Qmail will accept mail for all >>domains. If the file is 0 bytes long, it will refuse mail regardless of > > the > >>domain in the To: lines. >> >>There is usually a config and config-fast program in /var/qmail/bin which >>should be run when Qmail is first installed to set up the basic >>configuration files needed by Qmail. >> >> >>Cheers! >> >>Kevin. (http://www.interlog.com/~kcozens/) >> >>Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172 |"What are we going to do today, Borg?" >>E-mail:kcozens at interlog dot com|"Same thing we always do, Pinkutus: >>Packet:ve3syb-XXPEJ3/fxIc at public.gmane.org#con.on.ca.na| Try to assimilate the world!" >>#include | -Pinkutus & the Borg >> >>-- >>The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org >>TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >>How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml >> >> > > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From IlyaPalagin-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 22 21:14:09 2003 From: IlyaPalagin-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Ilya Palagin) Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2003 16:14:09 -0500 Subject: What are good Firewalls In-Reply-To: <3FBFB979.4080705-NOBIIgrgD1YV+D8aMU/kSg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FBFB979.4080705@enoreo.on.ca> Message-ID: <3FBFD1A1.6080902@rogers.com> Mark Vining wrote: > I have an extra P150 that I am going to set up as a firewall. Are there > any good Debian Packages I should look at? Everything you need is a kernel and ipchains|iptables :-) Also, apt-cache search firewall There are some packages which help you to configure a firewall, but finally you'll find out that the only way to make a firewall which does exactly what you want is to manually create a script with firewall rules. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 22 21:27:18 2003 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2003 16:27:18 -0500 Subject: Lindows Moving into Canada In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3FBFD4B6.2030804@rogers.com> Last I heard, the Globe and Mail was published in Canada. ;-) Justin Zygmont wrote: > it must have been a canadian site that wrote that story, they're trying to > make it sound like canada actually does something, just because lindows is > being sold now. > > > On Sat, 22 Nov 2003, Fraser Campbell wrote: > > >>On November 21, 2003 10:15 pm, Glen Strom wrote: >> >>>Globe and Mail story >>> >>> >> >>http://www.globetechnology.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20031120.gtlind1120/BNStory/Technology/ >> >>Not just Canada but if you read the Lindows release they're apparently moving >>into the "greater Canada area" ;-) >> >> > > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From dgenn-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 22 22:42:01 2003 From: dgenn-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (DanG) Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2003 17:42:01 -0500 Subject: PHP IDE for Linux In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20031122224115.XRYU451303.fep02-mail.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com@pittlandctr8at> Try Boa constructor. http://boa-constructor.sourceforge.net/ -----Original Message----- From: owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org [mailto:owner-tlug at ss.org] On Behalf Of Jason Slaughter Sent: Saturday, November 22, 2003 3:31 PM To: Toronto Linux Users Group Subject: [TLUG]: PHP IDE for Linux I've been trying to find the perfect IDE for PHP programming on Linux, but so far I've been coming up short. Maybe I have unrealistic requirements, but I thought I should ask here to see if the TLUG has any insight. Up until now I've been doing all of my PHP programming in gvim. I love vi, and up until now gvim has done everything I want. However I've started working on more advanced PHP projects, and I'm finding myself in desperate need of some of the features that an IDE. Mostly I need a step-through debugger, but things like code completion and file management are nice too. Ideally I'd like to find the following: - IDE with support for PHP - Runs on Linux - step-through debugging (using dbg perhaps?) - "vim" compatible editor (this is the hard one :) ) I would settle for just using gvim with a step-through PHP debugger, but so far I haven't been able to find a way to do this. I looked at Quanta, but its debugger (dbg) has been purchased by the makers of PHPEd and it's now an IDE without a debugger. So I tried NuSphere's PHPEd and it seems pretty good but $300 US is a little steep (though not unreasonable), and of course it doesn't support vi cursor controls/etc. ;) So, does my Perfect PHP IDE(tm) exist or not? :) Jason -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 23 05:11:26 2003 From: fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Fraser Campbell) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 00:11:26 -0500 Subject: Debian Updates In-Reply-To: <20031122163208.0d02c014.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FBFB82A.9000404@enoreo.on.ca> <20031122163208.0d02c014.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <200311230011.27158.fraser@wehave.net> On November 22, 2003 04:32 pm, JoeHill wrote: > > I just installed Debian on my computer and I am wondering what I need to > > do to get Linux to download all updates automatically. > > > > Can anyone suggest how to do this. > > best bet is to use Webmin to set up a cron job. Webmin is usually installed > as part of any distro, but if not, you know, apt-get install webmin. Wild, install a large piece of software that provides network access to the root account ... as opposed to typing the command "crontab -e". To each their own! As I've already suggested installing cron-apt is all you need to do ... out of the box that will download all available updates nightly. If you meant that you want to do it manually then it would be like this: apt-get update apt-get -dy dist-upgrade -- Fraser Campbell http://www.wehave.net/ Georgetown, Ontario, Canada Debian GNU/Linux -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From taavi-LbuTpDkqzNzXI80/IeQp7B2eb7JE58TQ at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 23 06:44:11 2003 From: taavi-LbuTpDkqzNzXI80/IeQp7B2eb7JE58TQ at public.gmane.org (Taavi Burns) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 01:44:11 -0500 Subject: LOTR and Linux? In-Reply-To: <3FBFE8EF.31864.9408C2-bi+AKbBUZKZeoWH0uzbU5w@public.gmane.org> References: <3FBFE8EF.31864.9408C2@localhost> Message-ID: <20031123064411.GL18722@hatefulsheep.ym.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> On Sat, Nov 22, 2003 at 10:53:35PM -0500, Paul King wrote: > believe), and I was pretty sure I could make out that one of the animators was > using a KDE desktop, especially after they had quite a few full-screen shots of > the same running program. Could WETA be a Linux house? We could only hope. You think? http://www.linux.org/news/2002/07/17/0002.html -- taa /*eof*/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 23 11:15:50 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 06:15:50 -0500 Subject: Debian Updates In-Reply-To: <200311230011.27158.fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FBFB82A.9000404@enoreo.on.ca> <20031122163208.0d02c014.joehill@sympatico.ca> <200311230011.27158.fraser@wehave.net> Message-ID: <20031123061550.79f1de57.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Sun, 23 Nov 2003 00:11:26 -0500 Fraser Campbell wrote: > Wild, install a large piece of software that provides network access to the > root account ... as opposed to typing the command "crontab -e". To each > their own! Well, unless he opens port 10000 on his firewall and makes the root password "blinky", I think he'd be okay ;-) I assumed (mistake, prolly) that sending him off on a hunt for a crontab how-to would be cruel. You gotta admit, crontab can be a beotch for newbs...got the sense Mark might be almost as newbish as m'self. -- JoeHill Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "Behind every great fortune is a crime." -- Balzac -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 23 11:34:50 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 06:34:50 -0500 Subject: Debian servers hacked? In-Reply-To: <3FBFD37D.405-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <200311210800.08931.fraser@wehave.net> <3FBFD37D.405@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <20031123063450.08f97ff5.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 16:22:05 -0500 jkls wrote: > In other recent news a file on kernel.org was nearly trojaned. Apparently > the FSF was hacked recently too. So I heard at work. > I couldn't contact www.debian.org this afternoon. This all smells like the work of a Microsoft/SCO mercenary... ;-) -- JoeHill Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "If the Nuremberg laws were applied, then every post-war American president would have been hanged." -- Noam Chomsky -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From scotta-cpI+UMyWUv9BDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 23 11:38:33 2003 From: scotta-cpI+UMyWUv9BDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Scott Allen) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 06:38:33 -0500 Subject: What are good Firewalls In-Reply-To: <3FBFD1A1.6080902-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org>; from IlyaPalagin-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org on Sat, Nov 22, 2003 at 16:14:09 -0500 References: <3FBFB979.4080705@enoreo.on.ca> <3FBFD1A1.6080902@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20031123113833.GC3143@localhost> On Sat Nov 22,2003 04:14:09 PM Ilya Palagin wrote: > Mark Vining wrote: >> I have an extra P150 that I am going to set up as a firewall. Are >> there any good Debian Packages I should look at? > > Everything you need is a kernel and ipchains|iptables :-) > > Also, > apt-cache search firewall > > There are some packages which help you to configure a firewall, but > finally you'll find out that the only way to make a firewall which > does exactly what you want is to manually create a script with > firewall rules. I've found FireHOL to be a good program (bash script, actually) for creating iptables firewall rules. http://firehol.sourceforge.net/ -- ** Scott Allen scotta-cpI+UMyWUv9BDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org ** ** Toronto, Ontario, Canada ** -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 23 12:59:01 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 07:59:01 -0500 Subject: Man Arrested Over 'Spam Rage' Message-ID: <20031123075901.47f53a21.joehill@sympatico.ca> Haven't we all had thoughts like this? LOL! "SAN FRANCISCO -- Call it spam rage -- a Silicon Valley computer programmer has been arrested for threatening to torture and kill employees of the company he blames for bombarding his computer with Web ads promising to enlarge his penis." http://www.wired.com/news/culture/0,1284,61339,00.html?tw=wn_tophead_4 -- JoeHill Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "I have the South in front of me and the bankers behind me -- and for my country, I fear the bankers most."-- Abraham Lincoln -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 23 13:12:02 2003 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 08:12:02 -0500 Subject: LOTR and Linux? In-Reply-To: <3FBFE8EF.31864.9408C2-bi+AKbBUZKZeoWH0uzbU5w@public.gmane.org> References: <3FBFE8EF.31864.9408C2@localhost> Message-ID: <3FC0B222.2070601@rogers.com> Paul King wrote: > Hmm... > > Just bought the DVD of The Two Towers. I finisned watching the movie and was > making my way through one of the feature DVDs (about the making of Gollum, I > believe), and I was pretty sure I could make out that one of the animators was > using a KDE desktop, especially after they had quite a few full-screen shots of > the same running program. Could WETA be a Linux house? We could only hope. Linux is very popular in the computer generated animation business. There was an article in the Linux Journal a couple of years ago, about using it in the production of Titanic. It seems those guys love Linux clusters. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From sidney-3Kd7Tu4o6f/sBN0MCq728g at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 23 13:17:25 2003 From: sidney-3Kd7Tu4o6f/sBN0MCq728g at public.gmane.org (Sidney Shapiro) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 08:17:25 -0500 Subject: Lindows Moving into Canada In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000201c3b1c4$26cfe110$6401a8c0@main> > http://www.globetechnology.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20031120.gtlind1120/B NS > tory/Technology/ > > > > Not just Canada but if you read the Lindows release they're apparently > moving > > into the "greater Canada area" ;-) > > The big question for most users (myself included at one time) is: "If I want to use Linux as a desktop, can I run windows programs?" Personally I have come to the realization that Linux and MS, from the desktop perspective are apples and oranges. I use my Linux servers in a server role, and use M$ software for my desktop and to run all the programs I need. Lindows has a huge section regarding this question, its been along while since I have seen so much doublespeak. http://info.lindows.com/askmichael/question19.htm Sid -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lloyd-fEEwcc3XMu8jODpR/OX0VQ at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 23 13:23:47 2003 From: lloyd-fEEwcc3XMu8jODpR/OX0VQ at public.gmane.org (Lloyd D Budd) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 08:23:47 -0500 Subject: Lindows Moving into Canada References: <3FBFD4B6.2030804@rogers.com> Message-ID: This isn't news, it is an advertisement! -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 23 13:59:02 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 08:59:02 -0500 Subject: A (sort of) new X server Message-ID: <20031123085902.7284c1a1.joehill@sympatico.ca> Pretty cool shot of this in action here: http://arstechnica.com/etc/linux/index.html One more step in a windowing system to rival the Mac (at least for eye-candy). -- JoeHill Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "I'm even lethal when I'm unarmed, 'cuz I'm louder than a bomb!" -- Chuck D. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 23 14:04:38 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 09:04:38 -0500 Subject: Lindows Moving into Canada In-Reply-To: <000201c3b1c4$26cfe110$6401a8c0-UxDKcUsq0RM@public.gmane.org> References: <000201c3b1c4$26cfe110$6401a8c0@main> Message-ID: <20031123090438.68c637fb.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Sun, 23 Nov 2003 08:17:25 -0500 "Sidney Shapiro" wrote: > The big question for most users (myself included at one time) is: "If I > want to use Linux as a desktop, can I run windows programs?" Personally > I have come to the realization that Linux and MS, from the desktop > perspective are apples and oranges. I use my Linux servers in a server > role, and use M$ software for my desktop and to run all the programs I > need. Have you investigated Crossover from Codeweavers? I checked it out for awhile, and I was able to run everything from Office to Photoshop, even Quicken and some supposedly "unsupported" apps. Then, of course, there's always the Mac... ;-) -- JoeHill Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "Athens built the Acropolis. Corinth was a commercial city, interested in purely materialistic things. Today we admire Athens, visit it, preserve the old temples, yet we hardly ever set foot in Corinth." -- Dr. Harold Urey, Nobel Laureate in chemistry -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From blanco-S8qYAnHmZTt34ZA5RureAJ4VBq8PJc8F at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 23 14:41:27 2003 From: blanco-S8qYAnHmZTt34ZA5RureAJ4VBq8PJc8F at public.gmane.org (Max Blanco) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 09:41:27 -0500 (EST) Subject: LOTR and Linux? In-Reply-To: <3FC0B222.2070601-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <3FC0B222.2070601@rogers.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 23 Nov 2003, James Knott wrote: > Linux is very popular in the computer generated animation business. > There was an article in the Linux Journal a couple of years ago, about > using it in the production of Titanic. > > It seems those guys love Linux clusters. When I arrived at the group with which I am associated, in 1994, it ran SGI machines for their graphics visualization environments (I entertained myself programming in a precursor to OpenGL). In early 1995 (?) a few students attempted to convince the purse-string holder to transfer to linux. First one linux machine and then another popped up. By 1998 the transition was complete. The unspoken (by me, at least) question was "Why spend gobs of money on proprietary hardware and a proprietary OS (especially when the support we got was worse than a kick in the head) when we could do it--with the ability to understand our tools inhouse--much cheaper and better (less curses to boot*)?" That question was took a long time to formulate in my percolator, largely because I could not at first understand the tool. In short, I was ignorant. More properly put: the tools dominated the man. (Not so anymore!, I like to tell myself.) I have advocated that knowledgeable persons from this group attempt to save ourselves, as taxpayers in Toronto, gobs of money and have a better city to boot, for precisely that reason. I consider that to be what Mr. Gates fears: understanding. His castle is built on sand. He knows it and I know it. I propose to take money away from a spoiled brat who is due for a reckoning. I propose this quietly but firmly, and, most of all, very openly. [* I was once a sailor with respect to my terminal. I do not consider myself to have cussed at my computer since at least mid-1998. This has everything to do with the transition from ignorance to (supposed) dominance, and also may be why I choose to use RedHat 5.0: because I *understand* it.] -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lloyd-fEEwcc3XMu8jODpR/OX0VQ at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 23 15:18:52 2003 From: lloyd-fEEwcc3XMu8jODpR/OX0VQ at public.gmane.org (Lloyd D Budd) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 10:18:52 -0500 Subject: access to Mandrake install over the net References: <1349.65.48.156.111.1069445547.squirrel@www.foolswisdom.com> <1069456759.2494.2.camel@gamma373-365.portable.resnet.yorku.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 18:19:22 -0500, Austin may have wrote: > Are you kidding? > SuSE is surely the least accessible distro. If you would please explain it is be appreciated? > Mandrake has many mirrors... there is a list at > http://www.mandrakelinux.com/en/ftp.php3 There is no list there for a non-member? Anyway, I reconsidered and it does not make sense to download a full ISO anyway, particularly when people have commented that the ISO have not been updated with the corrections since release. > You can download the ISO, or you can download a floppy image and install > over the net. I do not have a floppy drive. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 23 15:57:22 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 10:57:22 -0500 Subject: access to Mandrake install over the net In-Reply-To: References: <1349.65.48.156.111.1069445547.squirrel@www.foolswisdom.com> <1069456759.2494.2.camel@gamma373-365.portable.resnet.yorku.ca> Message-ID: <20031123105722.6f19ecdb.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Sun, 23 Nov 2003 10:18:52 -0500 Lloyd D Budd wrote: > If you would please explain it is be appreciated? > > > Mandrake has many mirrors... there is a list at > > http://www.mandrakelinux.com/en/ftp.php3 > There is no list there for a non-member? AFAIK, all those links will lead to the ISO's. > Anyway, I reconsidered and it does not make sense to download a full ISO > anyway, particularly when people have commented that the ISO have not been > updated with the corrections since release. I don't think they will ever release an updated ISO, which is why a net install would be better in that regard for you, I guess. However, the update after install is a simple matter of: 1. Configure update and other sources here: http://plf.zarb.org/~nanardon/index.php 2. urpmi --wget --update --auto-select takes about a half hour on broadband, and yer up and running. Most of the updates and bugfixes are just to do with KDE. > > You can download the ISO, or you can download a floppy image and install > > over the net. > I do not have a floppy drive. I believe you can get a Mandrake Live CD to boot from and do a net install, from here: http://www.pclinuxonline.com/ I'll check more on that later, right now my daughter's buggin' me to go to the park! -- JoeHill Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "The more laws and order are made prominent, the more thieves and robbers there will be." -- Lao Tsu -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lloyd-fEEwcc3XMu8jODpR/OX0VQ at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 23 15:37:05 2003 From: lloyd-fEEwcc3XMu8jODpR/OX0VQ at public.gmane.org (Lloyd D Budd) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 10:37:05 -0500 Subject: access to Mandrake install over the net References: <5.2.0.9.0.20031122012831.02a34008@localhost> Message-ID: On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 01:32:40 -0500, CLIFFORD ILKAY may have wrote: >>- mandrake.com does not seem to give any access to non-members > > Not true. You can get past that page by agreeing to become a Mandrake Club > member in the future. I believe you are mistaken that option does not seem to be present. > To save you the trouble and to be gentle to the > Mandrake mirrors Thank you for the very generous offer (and thank you to the others that replied off list). Next to Debian it seems that Mandrake may have the best TO community support. For now, I will try SUSE. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lloyd-fEEwcc3XMu8jODpR/OX0VQ at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 23 15:41:17 2003 From: lloyd-fEEwcc3XMu8jODpR/OX0VQ at public.gmane.org (Lloyd D Budd) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 10:41:17 -0500 Subject: access to Mandrake install over the net In-Reply-To: References: <5.2.0.9.0.20031122012831.02a34008@localhost> Message-ID: <1069602076.27259.3039.camel@localhost> On Sun, 2003-11-23 at 10:37, Lloyd D Budd wrote: > On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 01:32:40 -0500, CLIFFORD ILKAY may have wrote: > > >>- mandrake.com does not seem to give any access to non-members > > > > Not true. You can get past that page by agreeing to become a Mandrake Club > > member in the future. > I believe you are mistaken that option does not seem to be present. Oops, I know see what you, Joe, et all were referring to. "I'm already a member of the Club or plan on registering soon, please send me to the download page" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From aacton-B71PBEe7S7Y at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 23 16:53:52 2003 From: aacton-B71PBEe7S7Y at public.gmane.org (Austin) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 11:53:52 -0500 Subject: access to Mandrake install over the net In-Reply-To: References: <1349.65.48.156.111.1069445547.squirrel@www.foolswisdom.com> <1069456759.2494.2.camel@gamma373-365.portable.resnet.yorku.ca> Message-ID: <1069606430.2313.29.camel@gamma373-365.portable.resnet.yorku.ca> On Sun, 2003-11-23 at 10:18, Lloyd D Budd wrote: > > SuSE is surely the least accessible distro. > If you would please explain it is be appreciated? They have traditionally not released free ISO's to the public. That's what I meant. > > Mandrake has many mirrors... there is a list at > > http://www.mandrakelinux.com/en/ftp.php3 > There is no list there for a non-member? I'm sure there is. If not: ftp://ftp.uninett.no/linux/Mandrake http://mandrake.redbox.cz/Mandrake are the two most popular. > > You can download the ISO, or you can download a floppy image and install > > over the net. > I do not have a floppy drive. Neither do I. You can burn the floppy image to a CD-ROM and boot from that. $ mkdir image $ cp network.img image $ mkisofs -b network.img image > network.iso $ cdrecord dev=0,0,0 network.iso $ rm -fr image There are also lilo/grub tricks available to boot the image from your HD, but I've never tried it. It's mentioned somewhere in: http://qa.mandrakesoft.com/twiki/bin/view/Main/CookerHowTo if your're interested. Austin -- Austin Acton Synthetic Organic Chemist, Teaching Assistant, Ph.D. Candidate Department of Chemistry, York University, Toronto MandrakeLinux Volunteer Developer, homepage: www.groundstate.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From blanco-S8qYAnHmZTt34ZA5RureAJ4VBq8PJc8F at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 23 16:56:08 2003 From: blanco-S8qYAnHmZTt34ZA5RureAJ4VBq8PJc8F at public.gmane.org (Max Blanco) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 11:56:08 -0500 (EST) Subject: IBM Linux Video, going OT... In-Reply-To: <3015.216.138.194.32.1069408815.squirrel-16UnNR4aCrhlws70yGkXPA@public.gmane.org> References: <3015.216.138.194.32.1069408815.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, 21 Nov 2003, Keith Mastin wrote: > Christian folks say that everyone is tainted until they die or something > like that, but I don't think they condone not living because of it. > > Knowing nothing about karma (or Christian religion, obviously), I think > that contributing to OSS projects (yes, even by using them) is plenty. > Someone mentioned that they don't use postfix because it's released freely > (as in beer, not as in speech) under an IBM license. So what about qmail? > It's not GPL, so does that make it bad? Does the fact that both of these > freely (again, only as in beer) available software are emphatically > superior to other (free, as in beer) mail server software make any > difference, or should they both be shunned because they are not GPL? Does > this make the GPL a religion, or just something else to be zealotreous > over? As a sometime proponent of free software who has posted in the past with regards to postfix, I feel it to be my duty to stand in for the particular someone to which Keith refers. I think that that someone may have been more familiar with sendmail than with postfix, as that has been, to his knowledge, the standard by which other mail servers are measured. I have yet to know from personal experience that the alternative is better. I have experienced many years of problem-free use of sendmail. (Why would anyone seek to fix what ain't broke, anyhow?) The likelihood of a well userbase aside, I should only like to observe that since collectivized groups of individuals have become interested in what was once a garden of eden (to use religious metaphor) it has become a victim of pimps and nogoodniks and the prey of evildoers (to continue the religious metaphor, the use of which suits me just fine, I am surprised to find). I would have the reader observe that it tends greatly to be that wherever collectivized ownership sets in to society, great evils tend to occur. The use of corporative fictions allows individual men to deny any (moral) responsibility for their actions. That has occurred most recently and spectacularly with what was once the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. I find that the environment is a good example: no sane person would defile the place in which he eats, yet collective ownership allows that same individual to deny that what occurs under his very nose is his responsibility. We have developed, thus, a situation in which everybody will point the finger at nobody when the Lord [*] calls on each to account for his *own* conduct. The use of Christian religious metaphor would call for me to observe (slyly, always slyly!) that man will point at his neighbour for any blameworthy conduct, and further to observe that that may well be what at least one Christian has called hypocrisy. (To which type of environment did I refer? The physical environment, or some other environment?) One of the purposes, as I have found, of the Christian religion is to place burdens at home, where they belong, or put more succinctly, to know that "society" condones nothing, or yet again, to know that each is master over his own soul, The reader could well be excused if he were to ponder the sixth chapter of Micah in conjunction with Exodus 20:5 at this juncture (OT, I know). This should be contrasted to private, or individual, ownership of property--and, I fear it may be observed, sins, depraved conduct and whatnot--but I fear I have expended my claim on the reader's time. Please note that this series of observations in no way condones ownership of real property, but simply is a contrastive or illustrative device to draw firm distinction between two different types of ownership: I have tried to observe that one type of ownership has occurred in situations with similar collective forms to IBM, regardless of what licence is used to distribute the end... product. In answer to Keith's final question, one's own freedom is indeed something with which one must concern himself minutely, for nobody else will do so. Whether the GPL meets the test of freedom is an open question, but it is the best I have found in a generally sorry lot. The GPL can not be said to be a religion per se, but as a figurative tool which serves to enlighten our dismal caves, it is quite an endeavour; I ought to congratulate its conceiver. I agree that the use of this tool to enlighten the public may be considered unwise at this particular moment in time, but I do not conceive I can be zealotrous within my own confines, beyond which, to my knowledge, I have not strayed. The answers to the questions Keith poses are personal (as are those of religion) by which I mean that every one should answer them as he sees fit. [* It must be said that this religious metaphor becomes easy as one develops an observation.] -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 23 16:53:46 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 11:53:46 -0500 Subject: access to Mandrake install over the net In-Reply-To: References: <5.2.0.9.0.20031122012831.02a34008@localhost> Message-ID: <20031123115346.4e960f37.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Sun, 23 Nov 2003 10:37:05 -0500 Lloyd D Budd wrote: > I believe you are mistaken that option does not seem to be present. You should see two buttons to click, the bottom one takes you to the download page...it shows up for me, anyhow. Regardless, I agree it would be nice to have a net install ISO available, every other distro I'm aware of has some such. -- JoeHill Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "I'm even lethal when I'm unarmed, 'cuz I'm louder than a bomb!" -- Chuck D. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 23 16:55:21 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 11:55:21 -0500 Subject: access to Mandrake install over the net In-Reply-To: <1069606430.2313.29.camel-33sJirT1wKzlb5+wx7kmt/BjuwtQqDz/bwi28uEu5RN+FfftCXEu2Q@public.gmane.org> References: <1349.65.48.156.111.1069445547.squirrel@www.foolswisdom.com> <1069456759.2494.2.camel@gamma373-365.portable.resnet.yorku.ca> <1069606430.2313.29.camel@gamma373-365.portable.resnet.yorku.ca> Message-ID: <20031123115521.3695efdf.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Sun, 23 Nov 2003 11:53:52 -0500 Austin wrote: > Neither do I. You can burn the floppy image to a CD-ROM and boot from > that. > $ mkdir image > $ cp network.img image > $ mkisofs -b network.img image > network.iso > $ cdrecord dev=0,0,0 network.iso > $ rm -fr image Cool! This is a keeper, thanks Austin! -- JoeHill Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "The philosophers have only interpreted the world in various ways. The point, however, is to change it." -- Karl Marx -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jkls-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 23 17:25:06 2003 From: jkls-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (jkls) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 12:25:06 -0500 Subject: Do I need sgi_fam? Message-ID: <3FC0ED72.8010006@sympatico.ca> I am running Debian woody 3.0r1. I am not running X. I want to run samba, NFS, apache and sshd at least as far as servers go. When I type rpcinfo -p I see that sgi_fam is running. (SGI file access monitor) I am not running gdm etc. because I'm not using X. Do I need this service (ie for nfs or sthg) and if not where can I turn it off? I am not running xinetd which I understand sometimes enables it. I hav tried "grep -inr /etc" to see if it's listed in some conf file somewhere-which it is not. A small point but I have wasted quite some time on it. Regards, LS -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 23 17:35:07 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 12:35:07 -0500 Subject: IBM Linux Video, going OT... In-Reply-To: References: <3015.216.138.194.32.1069408815.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> Message-ID: <20031123123507.7c2878d4.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Sun, 23 Nov 2003 11:56:08 -0500 (EST) Max Blanco wrote: > > I would have the reader observe that it tends greatly to be that wherever > collectivized ownership sets in to society, great evils tend to occur. > The use of corporative fictions allows individual men to deny any (moral) > responsibility for their actions. That has occurred most recently and > spectacularly with what was once the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. ...and now even more recently in the U.S., where "corporative fictions allows individual men to deny any (moral) responsibility for their actions". Huge monopolistic conglomerates are now making anything the USSR concocted in terms of corruption pale by comparison. The corporate masters no longer even bother to make a secret of their control of the President, and the cronyism is beyond what us mere mortals can even comprehend. You need to distinguish between bureaucratic collectivism, like the former USSR or China or Microsoft , and the collectivism that characterizes the OSS or Free Software community. As Keith would point out, I am sure, it is a fine line, easily crossed given the right circumstances, but an important one nonetheless. Hence the aphorism: "The price of Liberty is eternal vigilance.". -- JoeHill Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "Where the state begins, individual liberty ceases, and vice versa." -- Bakunin -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jkls-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 23 17:53:54 2003 From: jkls-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (jkls) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 12:53:54 -0500 Subject: Do I need sgi_fam? In-Reply-To: <3FC0ED72.8010006-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FC0ED72.8010006@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <3FC0F432.1020708@sympatico.ca> Ok, I've found where it may be started. It's in inetd.conf. So I wonder why it is always running and do I actually need it? jkls wrote: > I am running Debian woody 3.0r1. I am not running X. > I want to run samba, NFS, apache and sshd at least > as far as servers go. > > When I type rpcinfo -p I see that sgi_fam is running. > (SGI file access monitor) > I am not running gdm etc. because I'm not using X. > Do I need this service (ie for nfs or sthg) > and if not where can I turn it off? > I am not running xinetd which I understand sometimes > enables it. I hav tried "grep -inr /etc" to see if it's listed in > some conf file somewhere-which it is not. > A small point but I have wasted quite some time on it. > > Regards, > LS > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jzygmont-tEQKYFGiemxAYG7eUwYNkWD2FQJk+8+b at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 23 17:58:14 2003 From: jzygmont-tEQKYFGiemxAYG7eUwYNkWD2FQJk+8+b at public.gmane.org (Justin Zygmont) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 12:58:14 -0500 (EST) Subject: Improving Redhat 9 performance? In-Reply-To: <3FC021C5.6080700-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FC021C5.6080700@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: I don't rememeber a performance difference to 9 when I used it. Maybe it is the services running then, try running setup from the command line and select only the system services you need, there is a F1 or F2 key to give details about what each service does. On Sat, 22 Nov 2003, Andrew Welker wrote: > Hi all. > I recently upgraded from Redhat 7.3 to 9 and I have found a significant > reduction in performance. > I am running a P-III, 800MHz machine with 192 Meg of RAM and a 40gig, > 7200 rpm hard drive. > I am running GNOME as my desktop. > This machine is used primarily to surf the net, do some simple > book-keeping and word processing. > Internet connection is via Sympatico high-speed. > Are there a number of utilities that might be running in the background > that could be removed to improve performance? > Basically, I am a basic linux user and want to get rid of anything > that may be taxing the system that I really don't need. I have > no interest in running remote access to this machine and I will never be > configuring it as a server. > Any hits would be greatly appreciated. > Thanks! > > Andrew > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From blanco-S8qYAnHmZTt34ZA5RureAJ4VBq8PJc8F at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 23 18:48:34 2003 From: blanco-S8qYAnHmZTt34ZA5RureAJ4VBq8PJc8F at public.gmane.org (Max Blanco) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 13:48:34 -0500 (EST) Subject: IBM Linux Video, going OT... In-Reply-To: <20031123123507.7c2878d4.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <20031123123507.7c2878d4.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: On Sun, 23 Nov 2003, JoeHill wrote: > On Sun, 23 Nov 2003 11:56:08 -0500 (EST) > > ...and now even more recently in the U.S., where "corporative fictions > allows individual men to deny any (moral) responsibility for their > actions". Huge monopolistic conglomerates are now making anything the > USSR concocted in terms of corruption pale by comparison. The corporate You have a way with words... > masters no longer even bother to make a secret of their control of the > President, and the cronyism is beyond what us mere mortals can even > comprehend. You seem to comprehend quite nicely... > You need to distinguish between bureaucratic collectivism, like the > former USSR or China or Microsoft , and the collectivism that > characterizes the OSS or Free Software community. As Keith would point > out, I am sure, it is a fine line, easily crossed given the right > circumstances, but an important one nonetheless. Perhaps you have a point, but I classified linux under private ownership: "Hey guys! Look at my piece of free speech. It dingles and it dongles when conjoined with another piece of free speech. You can reproduce it or not, as you see fit, with certain restrictions to allow it to remain free speech. Fill your boots." This can be seen in agglomerations lke sourceforge, which can be considered as a kind of bazaar marketplace, or on lists like this, for that matter. > Hence the aphorism: "The price of Liberty is eternal vigilance.". -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 23 19:00:55 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 14:00:55 -0500 Subject: IBM Linux Video, going OT... In-Reply-To: References: <20031123123507.7c2878d4.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <20031123140055.198db950.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Sun, 23 Nov 2003 13:48:34 -0500 (EST) Max Blanco wrote: > > This can be seen in agglomerations lke sourceforge, which can be > considered as a kind of bazaar marketplace, or on lists like this, for > that matter. Exactly. The *real* kind of Free Market, like Adam Smith envisioned, not one that is manipulated by accountants and bankers and lawyers (oh my!). Hey, waitaminnit, didn't some write a *book* about this, I think it even had the word "bazaar" in the title... ;-) -- JoeHill Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "There are three side effects of acid: enhanced long-term memory, decreased short-term memory, and I forget the third." -- Timothy Leary -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From blanco-S8qYAnHmZTt34ZA5RureAJ4VBq8PJc8F at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 23 19:52:41 2003 From: blanco-S8qYAnHmZTt34ZA5RureAJ4VBq8PJc8F at public.gmane.org (Max Blanco) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 14:52:41 -0500 (EST) Subject: Man Arrested Over 'Spam Rage' In-Reply-To: <20031123075901.47f53a21.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <20031123075901.47f53a21.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: On Sun, 23 Nov 2003, JoeHill wrote: > > Haven't we all had thoughts like this? LOL! > > "SAN FRANCISCO -- Call it spam rage -- a Silicon Valley computer programmer has > been arrested for threatening to torture and kill employees of the company he > blames for bombarding his computer with Web ads promising to enlarge his penis." > > http://www.wired.com/news/culture/0,1284,61339,00.html?tw=wn_tophead_4 He must not have been familiar with procmail. A script like this *may* (or may not) have saved him from going postal: # cat > .procmailrc :0: #delete spam * ^Subject:.*(prescription|meds|medication|xanax|valium|viagra|pharmac|enlarge|penis) /dev/null ^d Is the regexp match case-insensitive? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From blanco-S8qYAnHmZTt34ZA5RureAJ4VBq8PJc8F at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 23 19:58:53 2003 From: blanco-S8qYAnHmZTt34ZA5RureAJ4VBq8PJc8F at public.gmane.org (Max Blanco) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 14:58:53 -0500 (EST) Subject: Man Arrested Over 'Spam Rage' In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 23 Nov 2003, Max Blanco wrote: > On Sun, 23 Nov 2003, JoeHill wrote: > > > > > Haven't we all had thoughts like this? LOL! > > > > "SAN FRANCISCO -- Call it spam rage -- a Silicon Valley computer programmer has > > been arrested for threatening to torture and kill employees of the company he > > blames for bombarding his computer with Web ads promising to enlarge his penis." > > > > http://www.wired.com/news/culture/0,1284,61339,00.html?tw=wn_tophead_4 > > He must not have been familiar with procmail. > A script like this *may* (or may not) have saved him from going postal: > > # cat > .procmailrc > :0: #delete spam > * > ^Subject:.*(prescription|meds|medication|xanax|valium|viagra|pharmac|enlarge|penis) > /dev/null > ^d > > > > Is the regexp match case-insensitive? > Yup: Sorry for the repeat posts. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 23 20:06:06 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 15:06:06 -0500 Subject: Man Arrested Over 'Spam Rage' In-Reply-To: References: <20031123075901.47f53a21.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <20031123150606.4fd6a398.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Sun, 23 Nov 2003 14:52:41 -0500 (EST) Max Blanco wrote: > He must not have been familiar with procmail. > A script like this *may* (or may not) have saved him from going postal: > > # cat > .procmailrc > :0: #delete spam > * > ^Subject:.*(prescription|meds|medication|xanax|valium|viagra|pharmac|enlarge| > penis)/dev/null > ^d what's with the ^d, I've never seen that before? > > > Is the regexp match case-insensitive? No, you'd need [Pp][Rr][Ee]...etc. -- JoeHill Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "I'm even lethal when I'm unarmed, 'cuz I'm louder than a bomb!" -- Chuck D. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 23 20:09:39 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 15:09:39 -0500 Subject: Man Arrested Over 'Spam Rage' In-Reply-To: <20031123150606.4fd6a398.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <20031123075901.47f53a21.joehill@sympatico.ca> <20031123150606.4fd6a398.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <20031123150939.4e6b343b.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Sun, 23 Nov 2003 15:06:06 -0500 JoeHill wrote: > > No, you'd need [Pp][Rr][Ee]...etc. Heh, I stand corrected. Makes writing procmail recipe's easier than I thought, whew! -- JoeHill Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "The more laws and order are made prominent, the more thieves and robbers there will be." -- Lao Tsu -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jkls-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 23 20:48:00 2003 From: jkls-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (jkls) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 15:48:00 -0500 Subject: Has anybody tried Xandros OS? Message-ID: <3FC11D00.10701@sympatico.ca> I can't find many reviews of this on the net and it is quite expensive. It's Canadian, stylish and I can show my Mom how great it is if it will really run MS Office. I want it! Hoping for a Christmas bonus... -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From c.f.a.johnson-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 23 20:53:39 2003 From: c.f.a.johnson-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Chris F.A. Johnson) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 15:53:39 -0500 (EST) Subject: Man Arrested Over 'Spam Rage' In-Reply-To: <20031123150606.4fd6a398.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <20031123075901.47f53a21.joehill@sympatico.ca> <20031123150606.4fd6a398.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: On Sun, 23 Nov 2003, JoeHill wrote: > On Sun, 23 Nov 2003 14:52:41 -0500 (EST) > Max Blanco wrote: > > > He must not have been familiar with procmail. > > A script like this *may* (or may not) have saved him from going postal: > > > > # cat > .procmailrc > > :0: #delete spam > > * > > ^Subject:.*(prescription|meds|medication|xanax|valium|viagra|pharmac|enlarge| > > penis)/dev/null > > ^d > > what's with the ^d, I've never seen that before? Control-D, i.e. end of file. The instruction "cat > .procmailrc" sends the keyboard input to the file .procmailrc (should be $HOME/.procmailrc) until Ctl-D is pressed. > > > > > > Is the regexp match case-insensitive? > > No, you'd need [Pp][Rr][Ee]...etc. Not necessary; they ARE case-insensitive. -- Chris F.A. Johnson ================================================================= cfaj-uVmiyxGBW52XDw4h08c5KA at public.gmane.org http://cfaj.freeshell.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From blanco-S8qYAnHmZTt34ZA5RureAJ4VBq8PJc8F at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 23 21:09:36 2003 From: blanco-S8qYAnHmZTt34ZA5RureAJ4VBq8PJc8F at public.gmane.org (Max Blanco) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 16:09:36 -0500 (EST) Subject: Man Arrested Over 'Spam Rage' In-Reply-To: <20031123150606.4fd6a398.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <20031123150606.4fd6a398.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: On Sun, 23 Nov 2003, JoeHill wrote: > On Sun, 23 Nov 2003 14:52:41 -0500 (EST) > > what's with the ^d, I've never seen that before? exit/logout code. . Sorry for the confusion. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From robert-yzlPDbdf3LosA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 23 23:06:34 2003 From: robert-yzlPDbdf3LosA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Robert McDonald) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 18:06:34 -0500 Subject: Toronto Municipal Open Source Revolution, anyone ? References: <3FB2748F.7080703@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <005b01c3b216$765df6c0$0b01a8c0@win98p4> I have resourses to offer a comprehensive wiki, forum and blog site for this project.. Q: What does the word 'wiki' mean, where does it come from, how is it pronounced. A: Wiki wiki is Hawaiian for "quick" and it's pronounced wee-kee. Check this out and if it suits the need of TLUG for this project I'm happy to contribute. http://lampware.info/tiki click on the featured link on the right.. The IDA Open Source Migration Guidelines Robert P.S. saving seven million might be an over statement. What do politicians and weather forecasters have in common ? Just because they say something.. does not mean it's going to happen. ----- Original Message ----- From: David J Patrick To: Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2003 12:57 PM Subject: [TLUG]: Toronto Municipal Open Source Revolution, anyone ? > We have a new Mayor. Rumour has it that he uses linux. Whether or > not that is the true, the time is ripe for a shakeup of municipal > software usage. Who would spearhead such a move ? > Oh..I donno.. the Toronto Lunux Users Group ? > Mayoral candidate John Tory suggested that he could save seven > million tomorrow simply by getting Microsoft to refund license fees that > the previous Mayor (Mel) had over purchased. Apparently Mel bought > ordered twice the licenses actually required. I suggest that Mel > overspent by more like 90%. Why just return unused licenses, when open > source solutions are ready to go. > Here's what I propose; > If the consensus, here at the LUG, is that Toronto is ready for open > source (and vice versa) > Lets; > - set up a wikki, where we can collect our thoughts, arguments, links > and suggestions. > - find out where the thin edge of the wedge might best be placed, within > the Miller government. > - set up a special meeting/ presentation to pitch the idea and > demonstrate software candidates. (and let's not repeat the Globe & Mail > software installation fiasco; hide the pocket protectors and > propeller-beenies, OK ?) > If we can get our collective stuff together and sway the new > Municipal government to go open source, we will save our city millions, > make our city more open and secure, and set a big example, with Canada's > largest city. > whatdya say ? > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From blanco-S8qYAnHmZTt34ZA5RureAJ4VBq8PJc8F at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 24 00:18:33 2003 From: blanco-S8qYAnHmZTt34ZA5RureAJ4VBq8PJc8F at public.gmane.org (Max Blanco) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 19:18:33 -0500 (EST) Subject: arrgh! "smrsh: uid 1000: attempt to use procmail -f-" Message-ID: Hi All, I'm attempting to use procmail. As you can see below, I use sendmail restricted shell (smrsh). My log file /var/log/mail.log says: "smrsh: uid 1000: attempt to use procmail -f-" and then "return to sender: Service unavailable" What is the problem here? I'm using debian woody on powerpc. I have placed procmail in /usr/lib/smrsh, with proper permissions. tia, max. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 24 03:16:04 2003 From: davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (David J Patrick) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 22:16:04 -0500 Subject: lampware In-Reply-To: <005b01c3b216$765df6c0$0b01a8c0-VMKVZpoZl3s@public.gmane.org> References: <3FB2748F.7080703@sympatico.ca> <005b01c3b216$765df6c0$0b01a8c0@win98p4> Message-ID: <3FC177F4.2070409@sympatico.ca> Robert McDonald wrote: >I have resourses to offer a comprehensive wiki, forum and blog site for this >project.. > > > Yowza ! That's fantastic ! and that's one fine looking CMS thingy ! two things; 1) I failed in attempts to register. I kept getting a "wrong code" error. 2) I say wiki, you say tiki, we're both talking about a page that can be edited by any number of contributors, right ? 'thought so, just didn't see that functionality on my initial exploration of lampware. most likely cause I wasn't logged in (see 1)) Thanks for the generous offer, at first glance it looks really good. more later .. gotta sleep now .. djp -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From paulmora-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 24 03:44:13 2003 From: paulmora-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Paul Mora) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 22:44:13 -0500 Subject: Has anybody tried Xandros OS? In-Reply-To: <3FC11D00.10701-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FC11D00.10701@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <1069645453.24781.3.camel@stimpy.mora.ca> On Sun, 2003-11-23 at 15:48, jkls wrote: > I can't find many reviews of this on the net and > it is quite expensive. It's Canadian, stylish > and I can show my Mom how great it is if it will > really run MS Office. I want it! > Hoping for a Christmas bonus... Xandros is the re-incarnation of Corel Linux. It's a very user-friendly version of Linux. They are about to release version 2.0 of their desktop distribution. I've been using it on and off, and find it to be very slick. They have gone to great lengths to make things easy to the novice user, someone who is not familiar with Unix, or Linux, but is familiar with a certain other windowing environment. :-) Xandros also includes Crossover's Office and Plugin products, so if you must run those Windows apps and browser plugins, you can do it. Xandros is all Debian under the covers. This is the Linux distro your mother could use. :-) pm -- Paul Mora -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 24 04:03:37 2003 From: cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org (cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 23:03:37 -0500 Subject: IBM Linux Video, going OT... In-Reply-To: Message from "Keith Mastin" of "Fri, 21 Nov 2003 05:00:15 EST." <3015.216.138.194.32.1069408815.squirrel-16UnNR4aCrhlws70yGkXPA@public.gmane.org> References: <20031121010712.3C3F31F5B9B@outbox.allstream.net> <3FBD7C1D.3020608@rogers.com> <2902.216.138.194.32.1069385984.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> <3FBD94A8.8000103@rogers.com> <3015.216.138.194.32.1069408815.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> Message-ID: <20031124040338.6827D4038@cbbrowne.com> > Christian folks say that everyone is tainted until they die or > something like that, but I don't think they condone not living because > of it. No, the principle, called "absolute depravity," has, as thesis, the notion that we are deeply tainted by wrong. We're not all doing what the Adolph Hitlers of history did, but the fact that such grossly wrong things keep happening, over and over again, shows that there is some "seed of great wrong" to which people keep being vulnerable. > Knowing nothing about karma (or Christian religion, obviously), I > think that contributing to OSS projects (yes, even by using them) is > plenty. Someone mentioned that they don't use postfix because it's > released freely (as in beer, not as in speech) under an IBM > license. So what about qmail? It's not GPL, so does that make it bad? > Does the fact that both of these freely (again, only as in beer) > available software are emphatically superior to other (free, as in > beer) mail server software make any difference, or should they both be > shunned because they are not GPL? Does this make the GPL a religion, > or just something else to be zealotreous over? "Karma" is a concept of Hinduism, not of Christianity. The relevant bit of "religious history" is that, historically, many of the worst and bloodiest conflicts have been between sides that outsiders would consider had the same theology. The English "War of the Roses" was between people that had religious differences that most of us would likely have a hard time distinguishing. It is similarly often difficult to distinguish between the proponents of one "free software" license and another, but they fight nonetheless. > What if someone writes a piece of software while in University under a > corporate scholarship while studying to become some kind of software > guru dude? Should karma also shut down that software and keep it from > being used freely? Think deep before answering that one, it may have a > shotgun hidden deep within it somewhere. :) A great danger, these days, is that Universities are quite likely to consider software written there to belong to THEM. -- output = reverse("gro.mca" "@" "enworbbc") http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/x.html str->str_pok |= SP_FBM; /* deep magic */ s = (unsigned char*)(str->str_ptr); /* deeper magic */ -- Larry Wall in util.c from the perl source code -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 24 05:31:26 2003 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 00:31:26 -0500 Subject: Do I need sgi_fam? In-Reply-To: <3FC0F432.1020708-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FC0ED72.8010006@sympatico.ca> <3FC0F432.1020708@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <20031124053125.GC3751@m433> On Sun, Nov 23, 2003 at 12:53:54PM -0500, jkls wrote > Ok, I've found where it may be started. > It's in inetd.conf. So I wonder why it > is always running and do I actually need it? FAM (File Access Monitor) is a program that monitors constantly monitors specific files for any changes. Here's the theory... If you're running one program that needs to update a screen when a file changes, the program can poll the file every few seconds. But what if you're running a whole bunch of programs that need to track file changes ? Rather than have several programs scanning your drive, the FAM daemon does all the monitoring and informs client programs when files have changed. If there is any overlap, FAM will inform both clients, polling the file only once, saving a bunch of disk accesses. With multiple file-browsers on multiple desktops, this is supposed to be the most efficient method. Now for the implementation. FAM is *NOT* a "well-known service" with a reserved port in /etc/services. So it has to register with sunrpc on port 111 (hello L1on and other linux worms of a few years ago) and is assigned an un-used port. Client programs query sunrpc for the port number of FAM, and then talk to FAM on the assigned port. I don't think that programs require FAM to run. This is different from Redhat which set up KDE with dependancies to not install if FAM wasn't installed. -- Walter Dnes Email users are divided into two classes; 1) Those who have effective spam-blocking 2) Those who wish they did -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 24 11:05:03 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 06:05:03 -0500 Subject: IBM Linux Video, going OT... In-Reply-To: <20031124040338.6827D4038-xzRQuAxiFLNWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org> References: <20031121010712.3C3F31F5B9B@outbox.allstream.net> <3FBD7C1D.3020608@rogers.com> <2902.216.138.194.32.1069385984.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> <3FBD94A8.8000103@rogers.com> <3015.216.138.194.32.1069408815.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> <20031124040338.6827D4038@cbbrowne.com> Message-ID: <20031124060503.7c20c3bb.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Sun, 23 Nov 2003 23:03:37 -0500 cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org wrote: > No, the principle, called "absolute depravity," has, as thesis, the > notion that we are deeply tainted by wrong. We're not all doing what > the Adolph Hitlers of history did, but the fact that such grossly wrong > things keep happening, over and over again, shows that there is some > "seed of great wrong" to which people keep being vulnerable. You should read Eric Raymond's essay on that topic, very enlightening, though I guess in my case he was "preaching to the converted". Hobbes had it backwards. People are what people are, the circumstances to which they are subjected push them to do "evil" (notice I said "push" not "force"...there's no *perfect conspiracy*, which is why Orwell is interesting but wrong). http://catb.org/~esr/writings/killer-myth.html I think Camus did a big book on this topic too, though the title escapes me for the moment...need more caffiene :-) -- JoeHill Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "The more laws and order are made prominent, the more thieves and robbers there will be." -- Lao Tsu -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 24 11:33:33 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 06:33:33 -0500 Subject: Toronto Municipal Open Source Revolution, anyone ? In-Reply-To: <005b01c3b216$765df6c0$0b01a8c0-VMKVZpoZl3s@public.gmane.org> References: <3FB2748F.7080703@sympatico.ca> <005b01c3b216$765df6c0$0b01a8c0@win98p4> Message-ID: <20031124063333.4e52ec69.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Sun, 23 Nov 2003 18:06:34 -0500 "Robert McDonald" wrote: > > Check this out and if it suits the need of TLUG for this project I'm happy > to contribute. > > http://lampware.info/tiki Very cool, and I don't even know what a "CMS thingy" is! Seemed to register ok, already got the confirm email and I'm logged in. I'll try reeeaaaaaaal hard to stay on topic (must...not...spout...commie...crap...) and contribute something useful, this is something I've been wanting to be a part of for a long time. Thanks! > click on the featured link on the right.. The IDA Open Source Migration > Guidelines Wow. I think "limited number of publicly available case studies" is a bit understated: "They have been developed with guidance from public sector IT experts from Denmark, Finland, Italy, Germany, Malta, the Netherlands, Spain, Sweden, and Turkey. The relevance and readability of the Migration Guidelines were validated with the help of the regional authorities of Mecklenburg-Vorpommern, Germany." Holy shite! Geek power, eh? > Robert > > P.S. saving seven million might be an over statement. > What do politicians and weather forecasters have in common ? > Just because they say something.. does not mean it's going to happen. Amen. Heh. I just clicked on "My Tiki". You got one o' Hein's Mac icons there, he'd be seriously pissed... ;-) -- JoeHill Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "Where the state begins, individual liberty ceases, and vice versa." -- Bakunin -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cybervoyager-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 24 13:34:25 2003 From: cybervoyager-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (cybervoyager) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 08:34:25 -0500 Subject: SuSE Has Big Plans For Linux Message-ID: <000801c3b28f$ade74c30$b7ad9d18@alpha> SuSE Has Big Plans For Linux Fri Nov 21, 6:00 PM ET http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=74&ncid=738&e=9&u=/cmp/20031122/tc_cmp/16400306 SuSE Linux has big plans for helping create standards that will make it easier to integrate and manage apps in open-source IT environments, and the company says its pending acquisition by Novell will only help these plans. For companies to roll out Linux on an enterprise scale, it has to be easy to deploy and manage, chief technology officer Jurgen Geck said Friday. While a number of SuSE's partners, including Hewlett-Packard, IBM, and Oracle, have made moves to port their management apps to Linux, SuSE also wants these companies to develop an integration standard that includes open APIs that smaller software makers can use to fit within these larger management software architectures running on top of Linux. Novell's size, customer base, and Red Carpet management software, which it got when it acquired open-source desktop software maker Ximian, make it a good fit to further SuSE's plans for integration standards, Geck says. "Novell takes us to another level." SCO Group president and CEO Darl McBride this month tried to throw Novell's planned acquisition of SuSE a curve ball by claiming that when Novell sold its rights to Unix System V source code to SCO Group, formerly known as Caldera, the contract included a clause that barred Novell from competing with Unix. McBride claimed that, since Linux is a variation on Unix, a combined Novell-SuSE would be a SCO Group competitor. McBride said this during a conference call announcing his company was paying an additional $1 million in cash and 400,000 shares of stock to law firm Boies, Schiller & Flexner to prepare for upcoming Linux-related legal battles. SuSE affirmed Friday that SCO Group's threat against Novell would not affect the company's plans to buy SuSE. To the contrary, SuSE has been a partner with SCO Group as part of UnitedLinux, Geck says. "Also, doesn't SCO have to be selling something for Novell to compete?" Both SuSE and Red Hat have expressed annoyance at SCO for the time they've had to spend assuring their customers that SCO's claims have yet to be proven. In August, Red Hat filed a formal complaint against SCO in Delaware's U.S. District Court seeking "declaratory judgment" that Red Hat Linux does not infringe any copyright owned by SCO and seeking money for harm caused by SCO's public-relations campaign against Linux. Geck says he sympathizes with Red Hat's position. "Users are afraid, just from the cost of possibly having to defend a lawsuit," he says. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 24 13:38:51 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 08:38:51 -0500 Subject: Procmail won't play with Postfix Message-ID: <20031124083851.41e8571d.joehill@sympatico.ca> Max B. reminded me about setting up Procmail again, now that I have MDK 9.2 up and running, but I can't get it to go. Set up a basic ~/.procmailrc, like last time: PATH=/usr/bin PMDIR=$HOME/Procmail LOGFILE=$PMDIR/pmlog MAILDIR=/var/spool/mail INCLUDERC=$PMDIR/rc.testing where ~/Procmail contains rc.testing: :0: * ^Subject:.*test /dev/null My Postfix config shows: mailbox_command = /usr/bin/procmail -Y -a $DOMAIN but test mails sent with the subject, er, "test", to not go to /dev/null. Is there some way I can run Procmail from the command line to test it and see any error output? I read "man procmail" but I can't see anything about generating verbose output. It's not even generating a logfile as per the specified location... The only thing I can think of is the perms on ~/.procmailrc might be wrong: -rw-rw-r-- 1 joehill joehill 110 Nov 23 16:51 .procmailrc I've gone through these how-to's: http://userpages.umbc.edu/~ian/procmail.html (the one Max linked to) and http://www.ii.com/internet/robots/procmail/qs/ which I used before on 9.1, but I can't see what I might be doing wrong. Thanks all! -- JoeHill Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "The philosophers have only interpreted the world in various ways. The point, however, is to change it."-- Karl Marx -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 24 13:45:53 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 08:45:53 -0500 Subject: SuSE Has Big Plans For Linux In-Reply-To: <000801c3b28f$ade74c30$b7ad9d18-ZK5pCpJID5Y@public.gmane.org> References: <000801c3b28f$ade74c30$b7ad9d18@alpha> Message-ID: <20031124084553.3eea832c.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 08:34:25 -0500 "cybervoyager" wrote: > > SuSE Has Big Plans For Linux Not to be a list Nazi, but please don't send HTML, and wrap your text under 80 columns, as per the List guidelines. Thanks! -- JoeHill Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "I have the South in front of me and the bankers behind me -- and for my country, I fear the bankers most." -- Abraham Lincoln -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 24 13:54:53 2003 From: fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Fraser Campbell) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 08:54:53 -0500 Subject: Toronto Star article on SCO Message-ID: <200311240854.53315.fraser@wehave.net> A good article in The Star's business section today (page 2) entitled "Tech firm's strong suit is lawsuits". Nothing particularly new, my nutshell synopsis: - once innovation was key, now if you cannot afford to innovate you litigate - has Linux adoption been hurt ... no, momentum appears unstoppable - lowered cost a driving force behind Linux adoption - "continuing worries about the lack of security of MS Windows and it's applications are also having an effect" - "Microsoft now releases major software patches every month" - "it's much like plugging up a slab of swiss cheese" Couldn't find the article online or I'd have posted a link. -- Fraser Campbell http://www.wehave.net/ Georgetown, Ontario, Canada Debian GNU/Linux -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 24 14:30:52 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 09:30:52 -0500 Subject: Procmail won't play with Postfix In-Reply-To: <20031124083851.41e8571d.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <20031124083851.41e8571d.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <20031124093052.5eb33bc7.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 08:38:51 -0500 JoeHill wrote: > > Max B. reminded me about setting up Procmail again, now that I have MDK 9.2 up > and running, but I can't get it to go. Never mind, as is my usual custom, I find the prob before anyone can reply. It was the perms on the ~/.procmailrc file, too LIBERAL, can you imagine that? LOL! -- JoeHill Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "If the Nuremberg laws were applied, then every post-war American president would have been hanged." -- Noam Chomsky -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From blanco-S8qYAnHmZTt34ZA5RureAJ4VBq8PJc8F at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 24 14:35:01 2003 From: blanco-S8qYAnHmZTt34ZA5RureAJ4VBq8PJc8F at public.gmane.org (Max Blanco) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 09:35:01 -0500 (EST) Subject: Procmail won't play with Postfix In-Reply-To: <20031124083851.41e8571d.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <20031124083851.41e8571d.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: Do you have sendmail? The directory /usr/lib/sm.bin/ needs to have a link to a "procmail" binary. Check "tail /var/log/mail.log" Does it report "attempting to use procmail -f-" then "Service unavailable"? : Getting Procmail to Run in the First Place $ procmail DEFAULT=/dev/null VERBOSE=yes /dev/null > Max B. reminded me about setting up Procmail again, now that I have MDK 9.2 up > and running, but I can't get it to go. > > Set up a basic ~/.procmailrc, like last time: > > PATH=/usr/bin > PMDIR=$HOME/Procmail > LOGFILE=$PMDIR/pmlog > MAILDIR=/var/spool/mail > INCLUDERC=$PMDIR/rc.testing > > where > > ~/Procmail contains rc.testing: > > :0: > * ^Subject:.*test > /dev/null > > My Postfix config shows: > > mailbox_command = /usr/bin/procmail -Y -a $DOMAIN > > but test mails sent with the subject, er, "test", to not go to /dev/null. > > Is there some way I can run Procmail from the command line to test it and see > any error output? I read "man procmail" but I can't see anything about > generating verbose output. It's not even generating a logfile as per the > specified location... > > The only thing I can think of is the perms on ~/.procmailrc might be wrong: > > -rw-rw-r-- 1 joehill joehill 110 Nov 23 16:51 .procmailrc > > I've gone through these how-to's: > > http://userpages.umbc.edu/~ian/procmail.html > > (the one Max linked to) > > and > > http://www.ii.com/internet/robots/procmail/qs/ > > which I used before on 9.1, but I can't see what I might be doing wrong. > > Thanks all! > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From hughreilly1-PkbjNfxxIARBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 24 14:35:57 2003 From: hughreilly1-PkbjNfxxIARBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Hugh Reilly) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 09:35:57 -0500 Subject: Has anybody tried Xandros OS? Message-ID: Re: Xandros, Xandros first release used KDE 2.3 when KDE itself was at the 3.0 level. I didn't really see any advantage in Xandros over, say, Mandrake with the latest KDE. -Hugh _______________________________________________ Hugh Reilly XEN Technology Group | LinuxLab 600 Bay Street, Suite 405 Toronto ON M5R 1G6 tel: 416-204-9951 fax: 416-204-9723 email: info-2K4XOyu7qTosA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org _______________________________________________ http://www.xen.ca | http://www.linuxlab.ca >From: Paul Mora >Reply-To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org >To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org >Subject: Re: [TLUG]: Has anybody tried Xandros OS? >Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 22:44:13 -0500 > >On Sun, 2003-11-23 at 15:48, jkls wrote: > > I can't find many reviews of this on the net and > > it is quite expensive. It's Canadian, stylish > > and I can show my Mom how great it is if it will > > really run MS Office. I want it! > > Hoping for a Christmas bonus... > >Xandros is the re-incarnation of Corel Linux. It's a very user-friendly >version of Linux. They are about to release version 2.0 of their >desktop distribution. > >I've been using it on and off, and find it to be very slick. They have >gone to great lengths to make things easy to the novice user, someone >who is not familiar with Unix, or Linux, but is familiar with a certain >other windowing environment. :-) > >Xandros also includes Crossover's Office and Plugin products, so if you >must run those Windows apps and browser plugins, you can do it. Xandros >is all Debian under the covers. > >This is the Linux distro your mother could use. :-) > >pm > >-- >Paul Mora > >-- >The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org >TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus&pgmarket=en-ca&RU=http%3a%2f%2fjoin.msn.com%2f%3fpage%3dmisc%2fspecialoffers%26pgmarket%3den-ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 24 14:39:45 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 09:39:45 -0500 Subject: Procmail won't play with Postfix In-Reply-To: References: <20031124083851.41e8571d.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <20031124093945.1054351b.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 09:35:01 -0500 (EST) Max Blanco wrote: > > Do you have sendmail? The directory /usr/lib/sm.bin/ needs to have a link > to a "procmail" binary. > > Check "tail /var/log/mail.log" > Does it report "attempting to use procmail -f-" then "Service unavailable"? I don't use sendmail, but no worries, as you've probably just seen, it was just the perms on the ~/.procmailrc. I e-mailed my wife at work to let her know I got it working, she was very thrilled! ;-) Thanks for replying! -- JoeHill Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "Well, he might as well have been bombing Denmark." -- Gore Vidal, on the bombing of Afghanistan after 9/11 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From emir-rdkfGonbjUTTQjIoRn/dzw at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 24 15:12:05 2003 From: emir-rdkfGonbjUTTQjIoRn/dzw at public.gmane.org (Emir) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 10:12:05 -0500 Subject: LOTR and Linux? In-Reply-To: <3FBFE8EF.31864.9408C2-bi+AKbBUZKZeoWH0uzbU5w@public.gmane.org> References: <3FBFE8EF.31864.9408C2@localhost> Message-ID: <3FC21FC5.10607@codemonkeys.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 22/11/2003 22:53, Paul King wrote: > Hmm... > > Just bought the DVD of The Two Towers. I finisned watching the movie and was > making my way through one of the feature DVDs (about the making of Gollum, I > believe), and I was pretty sure I could make out that one of the animators was > using a KDE desktop, especially after they had quite a few full-screen shots of > the same running program. Could WETA be a Linux house? We could only hope. Pretty much all 3D design studios in Holywood run Linux on their workstations, and have been for years now. Heck, even Disney uses Linux for their animated movies. The reason is that they usually have highly skilled programmers and in-house expertise in system programming, and SGI (their vendor #1) was quick to support the drive. Furthermore, all their specialty tools were written for UNIX and porting them to Linux was much easier than porting to Windows. Benefit to us all was that Linux kernel matured much more quickly than any other OS in history - something SCO rightly observed, but misinterpreted in the most moronic of ways. Another benefit I hope to see from this trend is high-quality drivers for 3D cards, as purveyors of which figure out and embrace the movement. Once that is in place, and with mature OpenGL, gaming and other off-the-shelf graphics-intensive applications will become a de facto standard on Linux. Combine this with an accelerating push for Linux in enterprise server room, and you have a battlefront so wide no organization, with or without $40bn in bank, can fight. And *that* is how Microsoft will become irrelevant. - -- Emir. "Politicians, like diapers, have to be changed frequently. And for the very same reason." -- Anonymous -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (MingW32) iD8DBQE/wh/EuSy542G+Z7QRAt6fAKCT66wLdhICmptFyxrsmBAqax37iACfZcsf PyOeVsMEEhTTofWwrfjO6CU= =F61X -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 24 15:15:09 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 10:15:09 -0500 Subject: New version of nkvir Message-ID: <20031124101509.03149696.joehill@sympatico.ca> All this Procmail stuff reminded me to check for a new version, and there it was, now deals with the Mimail.e and Mimail.j worms, as well as the usual stuff like the Nigerian money scams: http://agriroot.aua.gr/~nikant/nkvir/ and as always, I'd like to plug my fav "trash it before you even download it" filter, which catches most of my spam before good ol' Procmail even has to deal: http://mailfilter.sourceforge.net/ -- JoeHill Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "In this possibly terminal phase of human existence, democracy and freedom are more than just ideals to be valued - they may be essential to survival...."-- Noam Chomsky -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 24 15:18:52 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 10:18:52 -0500 Subject: LOTR and Linux? In-Reply-To: <3FC21FC5.10607-rdkfGonbjUTTQjIoRn/dzw@public.gmane.org> References: <3FBFE8EF.31864.9408C2@localhost> <3FC21FC5.10607@codemonkeys.org> Message-ID: <20031124101852.5444ca27.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 10:12:05 -0500 Emir wrote: > > And *that* is how Microsoft will become irrelevant. I know how much this bugs Lloyd and others, but I can't resist: *well said*. -- JoeHill Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "Reality is what you can get away with." -- Robert Anton Wilson -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lloyd-fEEwcc3XMu8jODpR/OX0VQ at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 24 15:11:55 2003 From: lloyd-fEEwcc3XMu8jODpR/OX0VQ at public.gmane.org (Lloyd D Budd) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 10:11:55 -0500 Subject: LOTR and Linux? In-Reply-To: <20031124101852.5444ca27.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FBFE8EF.31864.9408C2@localhost> <3FC21FC5.10607@codemonkeys.org> <20031124101852.5444ca27.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <1069686714.18537.409.camel@localhost> On Mon, 2003-11-24 at 10:18, JoeHill wrote: > On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 10:12:05 -0500 > Emir wrote: > > > > > And *that* is how Microsoft will become irrelevant. > > I know how much this bugs Lloyd and others, but I can't resist: > > *well said*. **"that" is poorly complemented** It does not bug me at all. My desire is the same as yours: to make this list as usable as possible for everyone. With heaps of irony, if you are going to "quote" and draw our attention to a small "quote", you may want to ensure you include the context :-p -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 24 15:38:37 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 10:38:37 -0500 Subject: Man Arrested Over 'Spam Rage' In-Reply-To: References: <20031123075901.47f53a21.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <20031124103837.760c8445.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Sun, 23 Nov 2003 14:52:41 -0500 (EST) Max Blanco wrote: > ^Subject:.*(prescription|meds|medication|xanax|valium|viagra|pharmac|enlarge| > penis)/dev/null Just a thought, would this not work better?: ^Subject:.*(p*r*e*s*c*r*i*p*t*i*o*n|m*e*d*s|m*e*d*i*c*a*t*i*o*n|...etc. since so many now to "tricky" things like this: Subject: FW:Order Vi)agra. from home - no doctor needed - -- JoeHill Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "I have the South in front of me and the bankers behind me -- and for my country, I fear the bankers most." -- Abraham Lincoln -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 24 15:54:40 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 10:54:40 -0500 Subject: LOTR and Linux? In-Reply-To: <1069686714.18537.409.camel-bi+AKbBUZKZeoWH0uzbU5w@public.gmane.org> References: <3FBFE8EF.31864.9408C2@localhost> <3FC21FC5.10607@codemonkeys.org> <20031124101852.5444ca27.joehill@sympatico.ca> <1069686714.18537.409.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <20031124105440.4461179f.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 10:11:55 -0500 Lloyd D Budd wrote: > With heaps of irony, if you are going to "quote" and draw our attention > to a small "quote", you may want to ensure you include the context :-p I Getcha. "Hello, my name is Joe, I am an overzealous snipper." -- JoeHill Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "If the Nuremberg laws were applied, then every post-war American president would have been hanged." -- Noam Chomsky -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From aitken-BwLjziHGQLusTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 24 17:06:10 2003 From: aitken-BwLjziHGQLusTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Chris Aitken) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 12:06:10 -0500 Subject: subtracting value in Gnumeric Message-ID: <3FC23A81.DD80F3E9@onlink.net> Does anyone know the formula to subtract the values of one cell from another in Gnumeric? I know how to add a contiguous group of cells: =sum(B2:B30) # then I hit the arrow button to activate the formula. What is it to subtract one cell value from another. To subtract the value at B10 from B3, should I expect something like..? =difference(B10-B3) I 'm reading the tome at http://www.gnome.org/projects/gnumeric/doc/sect-gui-other-elements.html =no(luck yet) Chris -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From aitken-BwLjziHGQLusTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 24 17:13:39 2003 From: aitken-BwLjziHGQLusTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Chris Aitken) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 12:13:39 -0500 Subject: subtracting value in Gnumeric References: <3FC23A81.DD80F3E9@onlink.net> Message-ID: <3FC23C42.1D682A3@onlink.net> Chris Aitken wrote: > Does anyone know the formula to subtract the values of one > cell from another in Gnumeric? > > I know how to add a contiguous group of cells: > > =sum(B2:B30) > # then I hit the arrow button to activate the formula. I actually figured it out myself. Just substitute the : with - > What is it to subtract one cell value from another. To subtract > the value at B10 from B3, should I expect something like..? > > =difference(B10-B3) =sum(B3-B10) That did it. I'm a grade 10 math flunky so I didn't think my inbtuition would count, but it did. Subtracting is just adding, where one number is negative. Or should I just take my working formaula and quit while I'm ahead? Chris -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 24 17:23:10 2003 From: john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (John Moniz) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 12:23:10 -0500 Subject: subtracting value in Gnumeric In-Reply-To: <3FC23C42.1D682A3-BwLjziHGQLusTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FC23A81.DD80F3E9@onlink.net> <3FC23C42.1D682A3@onlink.net> Message-ID: <3FC23E7E.50201@sympatico.ca> Chris Aitken wrote: >Chris Aitken wrote: > > > >>Does anyone know the formula to subtract the values of one >>cell from another in Gnumeric? >> >>I know how to add a contiguous group of cells: >> >>=sum(B2:B30) >># then I hit the arrow button to activate the formula. >> >> > >I actually figured it out myself. Just substitute the : with >- > > > >>What is it to subtract one cell value from another. To subtract >>the value at B10 from B3, should I expect something like..? >> >>=difference(B10-B3) >> >> > >=sum(B3-B10) > >That did it. I'm a grade 10 math flunky so I >didn't think my inbtuition would count, but it did. >Subtracting is just adding, where one number is >negative. > >Or should I just take my working formaula and >quit while I'm ahead? > >Chris > > To subtract B10 from B3, it's simply "=B3-B10" (no quotes). You don't need the "difference" in there. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From kcozens-qazKcTl6WRFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 24 17:47:31 2003 From: kcozens-qazKcTl6WRFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Kevin Cozens) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 12:47:31 -0500 Subject: subtracting value in Gnumeric In-Reply-To: <3FC23C42.1D682A3-BwLjziHGQLusTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FC23A81.DD80F3E9@onlink.net> <3FC23C42.1D682A3@onlink.net> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20031124124133.01f020a0@mail.interlog.com> At 12:13 PM 11/24/2003 -0500, Chris Aitken wrote: > > Does anyone know the formula to subtract the values of one > > cell from another in Gnumeric? > >=sum(B3-B10) > >That did it. Glad you found another way to subtract two values. As someone else indicated, you don't need to invoke a formula or procedure (ie. 'sum') to do simple math. FYI, 'sum' allows you to add up a range of cells in a column or row by specifying only the first and last cell in the range. It is just a short cut to avoid having to say something like =B3+B4+B5+B6+...+B9+B10. Cheers! Kevin. (http://www.interlog.com/~kcozens/) Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172 |"What are we going to do today, Borg?" E-mail:kcozens at interlog dot com|"Same thing we always do, Pinkutus: Packet:ve3syb-XXPEJ3/fxIc at public.gmane.org#con.on.ca.na| Try to assimilate the world!" #include | -Pinkutus & the Borg -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 24 18:04:28 2003 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter L. Peres) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 20:04:28 +0200 (IST) Subject: all-onboard winmodem driver ? Message-ID: Hi, has anyone got the winmodem on those all-in-one boards going (Sis MR56 something or other id). In general, do the winmodems built into the low end all-in-one mobos work with linux ? Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From taavi-LbuTpDkqzNzXI80/IeQp7B2eb7JE58TQ at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 24 18:59:40 2003 From: taavi-LbuTpDkqzNzXI80/IeQp7B2eb7JE58TQ at public.gmane.org (Taavi Burns) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 13:59:40 -0500 Subject: subtracting value in Gnumeric In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20031124124133.01f020a0-Nf8GSVjHSL5zk1aGpazrEgC/G2K4zDHf@public.gmane.org> References: <3FC23A81.DD80F3E9@onlink.net> <5.2.1.1.0.20031124124133.01f020a0@mail.interlog.com> Message-ID: <20031124185940.GD31811@hatefulsheep.ym.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> On Mon, Nov 24, 2003 at 12:47:31PM -0500, Kevin Cozens wrote: > >=sum(B3-B10) > > > >That did it. > > Glad you found another way to subtract two values. As someone else indicated, > you don't need to invoke a formula or procedure (ie. 'sum') to do simple > math. FYI, 'sum' allows you to add up a range of cells in a column or row by > specifying only the first and last cell in the range. It Indeed, =sum(B3-B10) probably subtracts B10 from B3, and then "sums" the whole 1 element in the list (i.e. the value of B3-B10). > is just a short cut to avoid having to say something like > =B3+B4+B5+B6+...+B9+B10. Not only that, but if you insert rows properly, the sum() is likely to include the new inserted rows, where specifying cells explicitly won't. -- taa /*eof*/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 24 18:26:12 2003 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter L. Peres) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 20:26:12 +0200 (IST) Subject: Man Arrested Over 'Spam Rage' In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 23 Nov 2003, Max Blanco wrote: > He must not have been familiar with procmail. > A script like this *may* (or may not) have saved him from going postal: ... the latest breed of virii contain dictionary words (spelled right too) and a single html link. No clue as to what it's selling until your browser hijacks you there, wherever that is. They are designed to pass bayesian filters apparently. I think that the who set this scheme up use an actual bayesian filter to test whether their mail will pass. The words in the body are choosen from dictionary words that occur often in emails. Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 24 18:45:42 2003 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter L. Peres) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 20:45:42 +0200 (IST) Subject: Procmail won't play with Postfix In-Reply-To: <20031124083851.41e8571d.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <20031124083851.41e8571d.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: set: allow_mail_to_commands = forward,alias :in your postfix .cf Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 24 21:04:08 2003 From: john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (John Moniz) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 16:04:08 -0500 Subject: Errors Compiling DVTitler for Kino Message-ID: <3FC27248.9010005@sympatico.ca> I'm trying to compile a plug-in that does titling in Kino, but am getting lots of errors. I was hoping to takle one error at a time. During configure, I get one error: " ./configure: line 7033: fontpath,: command not found " Looking at the file configure, below is what I found to have "fontpath,": -------------------- # Check whether --with- or --without- was given. if test "${with_+set}" = set; then withval="$with_" : fi (fontpath, --with-fontpath Path to your TTF fonts dir, case $with_fontpath in /*) cat >> confdefs.h <<\EOF #define HAVE_FONTPATH 1 EOF -------------- The above is the first instance of "fontpath" in the configure script. Could anyone help out with the above error? My script writing/understanding is just not very good. If I can get past this one, some of the other errors might even disappear. Thanks, John. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 24 21:20:43 2003 From: cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org (cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 16:20:43 -0500 Subject: subtracting value in Gnumeric In-Reply-To: Message from Chris Aitken of "Mon, 24 Nov 2003 12:13:39 EST." <3FC23C42.1D682A3-BwLjziHGQLusTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FC23A81.DD80F3E9@onlink.net> <3FC23C42.1D682A3@onlink.net> Message-ID: <20031124212044.C372B4038@cbbrowne.com> > Chris Aitken wrote: > > > Does anyone know the formula to subtract the values of one > > cell from another in Gnumeric? > > > > I know how to add a contiguous group of cells: > > > > =sum(B2:B30) > > # then I hit the arrow button to activate the formula. > > I actually figured it out myself. Just substitute the : with > - > > > What is it to subtract one cell value from another. To subtract > > the value at B10 from B3, should I expect something like..? > > > > =difference(B10-B3) > > =sum(B3-B10) > > That did it. I'm a grade 10 math flunky so I > didn't think my inbtuition would count, but it did. > Subtracting is just adding, where one number is > negative. > > Or should I just take my working formaula and > quit while I'm ahead? You're trying *way* too hard on this. =B3-B10 should do the trick. [Abstruse explanation...] There isn't a "difference" function, and it sort of doesn't make sense that there would be one, either. The problem is that subtraction is a "dyadic" operation, not a "monadic" one; it always requires that you have _two_ values. If you have other than 2 values, confusion arises. If you have 3 values inside the "difference" function, what gets subtracted from what? What if there are 7 values? Realistically, you almost certainly don't want that sort of mix. -- let name="aa454" and tld="freenet.carleton.ca" in String.concat "@" [name;tld];; http://cbbrowne.com/info/spreadsheets.html Rules of the Evil Overlord #18. "I will not have a son. Although his laughably under-planned attempt to usurp power would easily fail, it would provide a fatal distraction at a crucial point in time." -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jason-gaRZxGPHtpBxZtjKW1aY+1aTQe2KTcn/ at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 24 21:23:43 2003 From: jason-gaRZxGPHtpBxZtjKW1aY+1aTQe2KTcn/ at public.gmane.org (Jason Shein) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 16:23:43 -0500 Subject: all-onboard winmodem driver ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3FC276DF.8060408@pcsecurityonline.com> Peter L. Peres wrote: > Hi, > > has anyone got the winmodem on those all-in-one boards going (Sis MR56 > something or other id). In general, do the winmodems built into the > low end all-in-one mobos work with linux ? > > Peter > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > Start reading here http://www.linmodems.org/ -- " Eventually people tire of repairing broken Windows, And decide to replace them with something stronger" (o_ //\ Linux - The Choice Of A GNU Generation V_/_ Jason Shein Linux Registered User #281100 jason-gaRZxGPHtpBxZtjKW1aY+1aTQe2KTcn/@public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From blanco-S8qYAnHmZTt34ZA5RureAJ4VBq8PJc8F at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 24 22:00:28 2003 From: blanco-S8qYAnHmZTt34ZA5RureAJ4VBq8PJc8F at public.gmane.org (Max Blanco) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 17:00:28 -0500 (EST) Subject: solved, was Re: arrgh! "smrsh: uid 1000: attempt to use procmail -f-" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I spent oodles of time to fix this beautiful undocumented ... (can anyone think of a synonym for "feature" which begins with a "g"??) When debian installs procmail over sendmail, it does not: * add "MAILER(procmail)dnl" to /etc/mail/sendmail.mc * ln -s /usr/bin/procmail /usr/lib/sm.bin * run /usr/share/sendmail/update_smrsh * run sendmailconfig (probably plus some others that I forget...) How on earth I found this one out remains a mystery to me. On Sun, 23 Nov 2003, Max Blanco wrote: > > Hi All, > > I'm attempting to use procmail. As you can see below, I use sendmail > restricted shell (smrsh). My log file /var/log/mail.log says: > "smrsh: uid 1000: attempt to use procmail -f-" > and then > "return to sender: Service unavailable" > > What is the problem here? I'm using debian woody on powerpc. > I have placed procmail in /usr/lib/smrsh, with proper permissions. > > tia, > max. > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From c.f.a.johnson-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 24 22:16:43 2003 From: c.f.a.johnson-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Chris F.A. Johnson) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 17:16:43 -0500 (EST) Subject: Man Arrested Over 'Spam Rage' In-Reply-To: <20031124103837.760c8445.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <20031123075901.47f53a21.joehill@sympatico.ca> <20031124103837.760c8445.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: On Mon, 24 Nov 2003, JoeHill wrote: > On Sun, 23 Nov 2003 14:52:41 -0500 (EST) > Max Blanco wrote: > > > ^Subject:.*(prescription|meds|medication|xanax|valium|viagra|pharmac|enlarge| > > penis)/dev/null > > Just a thought, would this not work better?: > > ^Subject:.*(p*r*e*s*c*r*i*p*t*i*o*n|m*e*d*s|m*e*d*i*c*a*t*i*o*n|...etc. Don't you mean: ^Subject:.*(p.*r.*e.*s.*c.*r.*i.*p.*t.*i.*o.*n|m.*e.*d.*s|m.*e.*d.*i.*c.*a.*t.*i.*o.*n|...etc. (procmail uses regular expressions, not file globbing patterns) But it will catch the subject "Some sed hints". > since so many now to "tricky" things like this: > > Subject: FW:Order Vi)agra. from home - no doctor needed - -- Chris F.A. Johnson ================================================================= cfaj-uVmiyxGBW52XDw4h08c5KA at public.gmane.org http://cfaj.freeshell.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 24 22:29:01 2003 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 17:29:01 -0500 Subject: Kernel with all parameters set -- how? Message-ID: <20031124222901.GA5188@node1.opengeometry.net> Before I float this to Kernel mailing-list, I thought I should ask kernel expert here... When you boot with LILO, you can give various parameters, either on command line, ie. boot: linux apm=power-off ip=bootp ... or using LILO 'append' option, ie. append = "apm=power-off ip=bootp ..." How do you produce a kernel image with all kernel parameters already set? I can use 'rdev' for 'root=', 'ro', and 'vga=' parameters. But, what do I do for 'apm=', 'ip=', and other parameters? -- William Park, Open Geometry Consulting, Linux solution for data management and processing. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From blanco-S8qYAnHmZTt34ZA5RureAJ4VBq8PJc8F at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 24 23:14:03 2003 From: blanco-S8qYAnHmZTt34ZA5RureAJ4VBq8PJc8F at public.gmane.org (Max Blanco) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 18:14:03 -0500 (EST) Subject: Man Arrested Over 'Spam Rage' In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 24 Nov 2003, Chris F.A. Johnson wrote: > On Mon, 24 Nov 2003, JoeHill wrote: > ^Subject:.*(prescription|meds|medication|xanax|valium|viagra|pharmac|enlarge|penis)/dev/null ^Subject:.*(p*r*e*s*c*r*i*p*t*i*o*n|m*e*d*s|m*e*d*i*c*a*t*i*o*n|...etc. ^Subject:.*(p.*r.*e.*s.*c.*r.*i.*p.*t.*i.*o.*n|m.*e.*d.*s|m.*e.*d.*i.*c.*a.*t.*i.*o.*n|...etc. > (procmail uses regular expressions, not file globbing patterns) > > Subject: FW:Order Vi)agra. from home - no doctor needed - Would this work? P=[).]? ^Subject:.(V$PI$PA$PG$PR$PA) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From blanco-S8qYAnHmZTt34ZA5RureAJ4VBq8PJc8F at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 24 23:28:48 2003 From: blanco-S8qYAnHmZTt34ZA5RureAJ4VBq8PJc8F at public.gmane.org (Max Blanco) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 18:28:48 -0500 (EST) Subject: new gmane interface? Message-ID: on IE4 + macintosh, gmane appears to have changed. It's useless to me now. Anybody else have the same problem? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Mon Nov 24 23:34:55 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 18:34:55 -0500 Subject: Man Arrested Over 'Spam Rage' In-Reply-To: References: <20031123075901.47f53a21.joehill@sympatico.ca> <20031124103837.760c8445.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <20031124183455.419e86f8.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 17:16:43 -0500 (EST) "Chris F.A. Johnson" wrote: > > Don't you mean: > > ^Subject:.*(p.*r.*e.*s.*c.*r.*i.*p.*t.*i.*o.*n|m.*e.*d.*s|m.*e.*d.*i.*c.*a.*t > .*i.*o.*n|...etc. > > (procmail uses regular expressions, not file globbing patterns) > > But it will catch the subject "Some sed hints". ah, yes, now that I went back and read the how-to, a * means a repeated character, not a wildcard... brilliant "anagraming", BTW :-) I could separate them out, though, into distinct lines instead of putting them all in brackets, thereby preventing the chance of missing those "sed hints"? Thanks! -- JoeHill Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "In this possibly terminal phase of human existence, democracy and freedom are more than just ideals to be valued - they may be essential to survival...." -- Noam Chomsky -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From kareem-d+8TeBu5bOew5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 25 00:39:30 2003 From: kareem-d+8TeBu5bOew5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org (Kareem Shehata) Date: 24 Nov 2003 19:39:30 -0500 Subject: Mail and Web Server behind a firewall Message-ID: <1069720771.28008.133.camel@yoda> I'm sure there's an easy answer to this, I'm just at a loss to come up with it at the moment. My setup is pretty straight-forward. I have a Linksys DSL Router sitting off of my modem, forwarding the necessary ports to a PC on the internal LAN. In the past, I've had no-ip.com serve the DNS zones for my domains, and configured BIND on the server for the local net. Now that I have a static IP address from IStop (thanks Ralph!), I now need to serve the DNS zone for my domains to the outside world. Here's the problem: my machine thinks that it's address is 192.168.1.2 (for example), but the rest of the world sees it as 66.11.182.61. How to configure BIND to serve the domain properly to the outside world, while keeping Apache and Qmail from screaming? Thanks in Advance! Kareem -- /********************************************************************* kareem-d+8TeBu5bOew5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org - Kareem Shehata - 416-676-6611 -------------------------------------------------------------------- Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is an absurd one. -- Voltaire ********************************************************************/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From blanco-S8qYAnHmZTt34ZA5RureAJ4VBq8PJc8F at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 25 00:57:35 2003 From: blanco-S8qYAnHmZTt34ZA5RureAJ4VBq8PJc8F at public.gmane.org (Max Blanco) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 19:57:35 -0500 (EST) Subject: Toronto Municipal Open Source Revolution, anyone ? In-Reply-To: <005b01c3b216$765df6c0$0b01a8c0-VMKVZpoZl3s@public.gmane.org> References: <005b01c3b216$765df6c0$0b01a8c0@win98p4> Message-ID: Robert, Great news! Thanks for the contribution... On Sun, 23 Nov 2003, Robert McDonald wrote: > I have resourses to offer a comprehensive wiki, forum and blog site for this > project.. > Check this out and if it suits the need of TLUG for this project I'm happy > to contribute. > > http://lampware.info/tiki OK, I logged in successfully and wrote a test article, but cannot preview or submit it. I get an "Alert! Can't open file for uploading" but I have not told the machine to upload anything. Does anyone else have this problem? IBM KICKS OFF GLOBAL LINUX AD PUSH Towards the bottom there is a list of governmental users. 'sabout time Toronto was on that list. Does Debian base install right out of the box on i386 machines? I see Xandros is a commercial release of Debian. Where does it differ? How much trouble does this list figure Xandros went through to make this difference? cheers, max. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From wmcgilvery-6d3DWWOeJtE at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 25 01:12:17 2003 From: wmcgilvery-6d3DWWOeJtE at public.gmane.org (Wil McGilvery) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 20:12:17 -0500 Subject: Mail and Web Server behind a firewall Message-ID: <65B7B304AA3DE147BBD33938FE204E284A94B9@lynchmail.lynch.msft> Why not just use a hosts file for internal resolution. How many machines are we talking about? Regards, Wil McGilvery Manager Lynch Digital Media Inc 416-744-7949 416-716-3964 (cell) 1-866-314-4678 416-744-0406? FAX www.LynchDigital.com -----Original Message----- From: Kareem Shehata [mailto:kareem-d+8TeBu5bOew5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org] Sent: Monday, November 24, 2003 7:40 PM To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Subject: [TLUG]: Mail and Web Server behind a firewall I'm sure there's an easy answer to this, I'm just at a loss to come up with it at the moment. My setup is pretty straight-forward. I have a Linksys DSL Router sitting off of my modem, forwarding the necessary ports to a PC on the internal LAN. In the past, I've had no-ip.com serve the DNS zones for my domains, and configured BIND on the server for the local net. Now that I have a static IP address from IStop (thanks Ralph!), I now need to serve the DNS zone for my domains to the outside world. Here's the problem: my machine thinks that it's address is 192.168.1.2 (for example), but the rest of the world sees it as 66.11.182.61. How to configure BIND to serve the domain properly to the outside world, while keeping Apache and Qmail from screaming? Thanks in Advance! Kareem -- /********************************************************************* kareem-d+8TeBu5bOew5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org - Kareem Shehata - 416-676-6611 -------------------------------------------------------------------- Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is an absurd one. -- Voltaire ********************************************************************/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From verbum-qazKcTl6WRFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 25 01:38:07 2003 From: verbum-qazKcTl6WRFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (verbum-qazKcTl6WRFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 01:38:07 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Toronto FreeNet massive trouble: where to go now? Message-ID: Due to massive ISP problems, I missed the recent TLUG listserv discussion of DSL providers, and have had no luck finding an up-to-date listserv archive on the Web. Hence this posting! I got my ADSL modem working with Toronto FreeNet about 10 days ago, but have had erratic service. The problem appears both when I connect my Debian GNU/Linux PC to the modem and when when I instead connect my Win98 SE laptop to the modem. The trouble varies from day to day or hour to hour, sometimes involving dropped packets, sometimes involving ping response times on the order of 3000 milliseconds, sometimes involving a failure (as demonstrated by tcptraceroute) part of the way upstream, with a Toronto router evidently failing to talk to a New York router. Many hours are trouble-free, but just when i start feeling safe again, trouble returns. Toronto FreeNet is innocent of blame. The real culprit is WizNet, whose ADSL Toronto FreeNet is reselling to me. Can some kind soul recommend a good DSL ISP, preferably from personal experience? You could post to this listerv, OR e-mail me directly (verbum-qazKcTl6WRFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org). As I say, I'm sorry to be posting on a topic which was already discussed a little while ago, while I was out ot listserv space with various heavy problems. Rapidly, very discouraged with WizNet, and for different reasons discouraged also with my ppp-dialup provider ca.inter.net (Interlog), Tom = Tom Karmo 416-971-6955 http://www.metascientia.com -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lloyd-fEEwcc3XMu8jODpR/OX0VQ at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 25 02:14:37 2003 From: lloyd-fEEwcc3XMu8jODpR/OX0VQ at public.gmane.org (lloyd-fEEwcc3XMu8jODpR/OX0VQ at public.gmane.org) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 21:14:37 -0500 (EST) Subject: TLUG mailing list archive In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2931.129.37.177.126.1069726477.squirrel@www.foolswisdom.com> > Due to massive ISP problems, I missed the recent TLUG listserv > discussion of DSL providers, and have > had no luck finding an up-to-date listserv archive on the Web. Hence > this posting! http://dissemble.net/tlug-archive/ http://gmane.org/find.php?list=Tlug -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From mgalea-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 25 02:36:48 2003 From: mgalea-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org (Michael Galea) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 21:36:48 -0500 Subject: Linux Scanners In-Reply-To: <3FB7E443.1040509-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FB7E443.1040509@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <200311242136.48491.mgalea@eol.ca> On November 16, 2003 03:55 pm, John Moniz wrote: > This subject comes up once in a while, but since developments happen > quickly, I'd like to ask again. > > I'm intending on treating myself to a scanner soon, but one that is good > for photo/film/slide scanning. I'd like to pick a brand that is very > Linux friendly, not just a model that is on the USB list. Which company > would be good to support? Is Epson as good with scanners as it is with > printers? I had a look at an Epson Perfection 1670 Photo scanner that > might fit my requirements, although it looks almost too inexpensive. Is > Canon still a PITA? Any scanner suggestions would be welcome? > > Thanks, > > John. I picked up the 1670 this weekend at costco. I was a bit dismayed to learn that it was one the few Epson scanners not supported under the epson backend. After pulling down and building the latest backends I had no problems getting it running under the snapscan backend. I am quite happy with it, despite the fact that I had to fire up windows to unpack the cabs and get the scanners download file.. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 25 02:42:22 2003 From: fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Fraser Campbell) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 21:42:22 -0500 Subject: Mail and Web Server behind a firewall In-Reply-To: <1069720771.28008.133.camel-VXIkh0TWzyg@public.gmane.org> References: <1069720771.28008.133.camel@yoda> Message-ID: <200311242142.22277.fraser@wehave.net> On November 24, 2003 07:39 pm, Kareem Shehata wrote: > example), but the rest of the world sees it as 66.11.182.61. How to > configure BIND to serve the domain properly to the outside world, while > keeping Apache and Qmail from screaming? Bind 9 has something called (IIRC) "views". I've never used it but I believe it let's you serve a different IP address depending on who is asking. If a computer on the 192.168.1 network asks it will get a 192.168.1 answer, otherwise it will hand out the 66.11.182.61 address. Alternatively you could run two DNS servers (could be on the same machine). To run that on the same machine just have the second instance of bind listen on a second IP on the box. That second instance could contain your private addresses and would be used by the box itself for resolving. -- Fraser Campbell http://www.wehave.net/ Georgetown, Ontario, Canada Debian GNU/Linux -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 25 02:44:08 2003 From: fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Fraser Campbell) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 21:44:08 -0500 Subject: Linux Scanners In-Reply-To: <200311242136.48491.mgalea-MwcKTmeKVNQ@public.gmane.org> References: <3FB7E443.1040509@sympatico.ca> <200311242136.48491.mgalea@eol.ca> Message-ID: <200311242144.08072.fraser@wehave.net> On November 24, 2003 09:36 pm, Michael Galea wrote: > I am quite happy with it, despite the fact that I had to fire up windows to > unpack the cabs and get the scanners download file.. FYI, there's a Linux tool that you can use for that. If running Debian ;-) apt-get install cabextract -- Fraser Campbell http://www.wehave.net/ Georgetown, Ontario, Canada Debian GNU/Linux -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 25 03:12:01 2003 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 22:12:01 -0500 Subject: solved, was Re: arrgh! "smrsh: uid 1000: attempt to use procmail -f-" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20031125031201.GA31227@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Nov 24, 2003 at 05:00:28PM -0500, Max Blanco wrote: > I spent oodles of time to fix this beautiful undocumented ... (can anyone > think of a synonym for "feature" which begins with a "g"??) > > When debian installs procmail over sendmail, it does not: > * add "MAILER(procmail)dnl" to /etc/mail/sendmail.mc > * ln -s /usr/bin/procmail /usr/lib/sm.bin > * run /usr/share/sendmail/update_smrsh > * run sendmailconfig > > (probably plus some others that I forget...) > > How on earth I found this one out remains a mystery to me. Well Debian tends to run exim (which is simpler to configure by far, has had less security holes, among other things), so it isn't too surprising that a package like procmail doesn't put much effort into making sendmail do things. Would you really want a package arbitrarily changing your sendmail config? exim comes preconfigured to use procmail if installed. Lennart Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jkls-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 25 03:43:00 2003 From: jkls-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (jkls) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 22:43:00 -0500 Subject: Has anybody tried Xandros OS? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3FC2CFC4.8080102@sympatico.ca> A true newbie's story-pathetic but true: The last time I used Mandrake and I couldn't get updates using the graphical tools that I knew of because they wouldn't go through my firewall. I had all the lower ports blocked. I was so tired of struggling with my firewall. I had spent like two months learning enough to set it up and the thought of "re-compiling the ftp client with passive support" just made me tired. I loved that system's interface but I couldn't get any security updates so I was a paranoid wreck. If Xandros really could run MS Office then Mom and neighbours would have to whistle. Plus they're a Canajun company. I like stuff like that. But ease of use often means less features. Windows is one popular example. (Which is why I like to struggle with Linux from time to time-I mean who wouldn't want to know that the MBR is 512 bytes of which the top 66 are the partition table-including the two byte header-the power just makes you dizzy.) I am also thinking about Gentoo. This looks very nice on the surface: great installation instructions, a package management system, nice screenshots and I have some limited experience with their excellent boot CD. It's also cheap/free. Thanks for your opinion. Hugh Reilly wrote: > Re: Xandros, > > Xandros first release used KDE 2.3 when KDE itself was at the 3.0 > level. I didn't really see any advantage in Xandros over, say, > Mandrake with the latest KDE. > > > > -Hugh > _______________________________________________ > Hugh Reilly > XEN Technology Group | LinuxLab > 600 Bay Street, Suite 405 > Toronto ON M5R 1G6 > tel: 416-204-9951 > fax: 416-204-9723 > email: info-2K4XOyu7qTosA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org > _______________________________________________ > http://www.xen.ca | http://www.linuxlab.ca > > > > > >> From: Paul Mora >> Reply-To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org >> To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org >> Subject: Re: [TLUG]: Has anybody tried Xandros OS? >> Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 22:44:13 -0500 >> >> On Sun, 2003-11-23 at 15:48, jkls wrote: >> > I can't find many reviews of this on the net and >> > it is quite expensive. It's Canadian, stylish >> > and I can show my Mom how great it is if it will >> > really run MS Office. I want it! >> > Hoping for a Christmas bonus... >> >> Xandros is the re-incarnation of Corel Linux. It's a very user-friendly >> version of Linux. They are about to release version 2.0 of their >> desktop distribution. >> >> I've been using it on and off, and find it to be very slick. They have >> gone to great lengths to make things easy to the novice user, someone >> who is not familiar with Unix, or Linux, but is familiar with a certain >> other windowing environment. :-) >> >> Xandros also includes Crossover's Office and Plugin products, so if you >> must run those Windows apps and browser plugins, you can do it. Xandros >> is all Debian under the covers. >> >> This is the Linux distro your mother could use. :-) >> >> pm >> >> -- >> Paul Mora >> >> -- >> The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org >> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > > > _________________________________________________________________ > MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus&pgmarket=en-ca&RU=http%3a%2f%2fjoin.msn.com%2f%3fpage%3dmisc%2fspecialoffers%26pgmarket%3den-ca > > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jkls-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 25 03:46:45 2003 From: jkls-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (jkls) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 22:46:45 -0500 Subject: Has anybody tried Xandros OS? In-Reply-To: <1069645453.24781.3.camel-iZZPs9VQPXcqFv4aMVwAvg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FC11D00.10701@sympatico.ca> <1069645453.24781.3.camel@stimpy.mora.ca> Message-ID: <3FC2D0A5.2030402@sympatico.ca> Paul Mora wrote: >Xandros is the re-incarnation of Corel Linux. It's a very user-friendly >version of Linux. They are about to release version 2.0 of their >desktop distribution. > >I've been using it on and off, and find it to be very slick. They have >gone to great lengths to make things easy to the novice user, someone >who is not familiar with Unix, or Linux, but is familiar with a certain >other windowing environment. :-) > >Xandros also includes Crossover's Office and Plugin products, so if you >must run those Windows apps and browser plugins, you can do it. Xandros >is all Debian under the covers. > >This is the Linux distro your mother could use. :-) > >pm > > Although nothing could really make my Mom USE Linux. Too much peer pressure from the office environment for that to be practical. Thank you. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From kareem-d+8TeBu5bOew5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 25 03:54:23 2003 From: kareem-d+8TeBu5bOew5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org (Kareem Shehata) Date: 24 Nov 2003 22:54:23 -0500 Subject: Mail and Web Server behind a firewall In-Reply-To: <65B7B304AA3DE147BBD33938FE204E284A94B9-49iW0tF5bQXl9+zcyUE9hx1TMoFmMu2o@public.gmane.org> References: <65B7B304AA3DE147BBD33938FE204E284A94B9@lynchmail.lynch.msft> Message-ID: <1069732464.28008.137.camel@yoda> On Mon, 2003-11-24 at 20:12, Wil McGilvery wrote: > Why not just use a hosts file for internal resolution. > > How many machines are we talking about? The problem isn't internal machines finding the server, it's the services on the server becoming concerned. I use name-based virtual servers in Apache, which will scream if the DNS entry for the virtual server name doesn't match the IP of the interface. Not sure about qmail, but I have a feeling it won't like it much either. Surely someone else on the list has run into a similar problem, and hopefully come up with an elegant solution? Kareem -- /********************************************************************* kareem-d+8TeBu5bOew5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org - Kareem Shehata - 416-676-6611 -------------------------------------------------------------------- Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is an absurd one. -- Voltaire ********************************************************************/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From blanco-S8qYAnHmZTt34ZA5RureAJ4VBq8PJc8F at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 25 03:54:52 2003 From: blanco-S8qYAnHmZTt34ZA5RureAJ4VBq8PJc8F at public.gmane.org (Max Blanco) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 22:54:52 -0500 (EST) Subject: solved, was Re: arrgh! "smrsh: uid 1000: attempt to use procmail -f-" In-Reply-To: <20031125031201.GA31227-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20031125031201.GA31227@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Mon, 24 Nov 2003, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > Well Debian tends to run exim (which is simpler to configure by far, has > had less security holes, among other things), so it isn't too surprising > that a package like procmail doesn't put much effort into making > sendmail do things. Would you really want a package arbitrarily > changing your sendmail config? No. I would expect it to ask first. The sendmail package does that already; I don't see why procmail couldn't check the sendmail.mc and, if it needed changing, ask nicely. dselect has an option for that called "[C]onfig". 8) > exim comes preconfigured to use procmail if installed. I think that mailer that uses "Maildir" format instead of "mbox"... thanks, max. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From wmcgilvery-6d3DWWOeJtE at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 25 04:44:36 2003 From: wmcgilvery-6d3DWWOeJtE at public.gmane.org (Wil McGilvery) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 23:44:36 -0500 Subject: Mail and Web Server behind a firewall Message-ID: <65B7B304AA3DE147BBD33938FE204E2831918F@lynchmail.lynch.msft> So that makes this even easier. You can set up the order of resolving names to being the host file first and DNS second. In you DNS you have a zone for which contains the external IP address. Everyone see that who queries your DNS. In you host file, you put the local ip addresses. You server will check the host file and stop because it found the local ip addresses and is happy. The rest of the world will query the DNS and find the external ip address and they will be happy. I have used this setup before and it works very well. Or You can run 2 instances of Bind. I have never used the bind views mentioned earlier. Regards, Wil McGilvery Manager Lynch Digital Media Inc 416-744-7949 416-716-3964 (cell) 1-866-314-4678 416-744-0406? FAX www.LynchDigital.com -----Original Message----- From: Kareem Shehata [mailto:kareem-d+8TeBu5bOew5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org] Sent: Monday, November 24, 2003 10:54 PM To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Subject: RE: [TLUG]: Mail and Web Server behind a firewall On Mon, 2003-11-24 at 20:12, Wil McGilvery wrote: > Why not just use a hosts file for internal resolution. > > How many machines are we talking about? The problem isn't internal machines finding the server, it's the services on the server becoming concerned. I use name-based virtual servers in Apache, which will scream if the DNS entry for the virtual server name doesn't match the IP of the interface. Not sure about qmail, but I have a feeling it won't like it much either. Surely someone else on the list has run into a similar problem, and hopefully come up with an elegant solution? Kareem -- /********************************************************************* kareem-d+8TeBu5bOew5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org - Kareem Shehata - 416-676-6611 -------------------------------------------------------------------- Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is an absurd one. -- Voltaire ********************************************************************/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 25 04:55:43 2003 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 23:55:43 -0500 Subject: Toronto FreeNet massive trouble: where to go now? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20031125045543.GA441@node1.opengeometry.net> On Mon, Nov 24, 2003 at 08:37:34PM +0000, verbum-qazKcTl6WRFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org wrote: > Can some kind soul recommend a good DSL ISP, preferably from personal > experience? You could post to this listerv, OR e-mail me directly > (verbum-qazKcTl6WRFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org). eol.ca ? -- William Park, Open Geometry Consulting, Linux solution for data management and processing. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lists-JN5fZfbfKAtWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 25 06:04:30 2003 From: lists-JN5fZfbfKAtWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Julian C. Dunn) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 01:04:30 -0500 Subject: Toronto FreeNet massive trouble: where to go now? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1069740269.26123.214.camel@jupiter.acf.aquezada.com> On Mon, 2003-11-24 at 15:37, verbum-qazKcTl6WRFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org wrote: > I got my ADSL modem working with Toronto FreeNet about 10 days ago, but have > had erratic service. The problem appears both when I connect my Debian GNU/Linux PC to the > modem and when when I instead connect my Win98 SE laptop to the modem. > > The trouble varies from day to day or hour to hour, sometimes involving dropped packets, > sometimes involving ping response times on the order of 3000 milliseconds, sometimes > involving a failure (as demonstrated by tcptraceroute) part of the way upstream, with > a Toronto router evidently failing to talk to a New York router. Many hours are > trouble-free, but just when i start feeling safe again, trouble returns. > > Toronto FreeNet is innocent of blame. The real culprit is WizNet, whose ADSL Toronto > FreeNet is reselling to me. I'm also a poor tfnet.ca user. Here I thought I was supporting a community ISP and the next thing I know I'm being resold a crappy Velocet DSL line. Someone mentioned that they are using iStop. I'm intrigued by the promise of an SLA if one pays $10/month. Since I depend on the uptime of this line for my business, it would make business sense to pay for it. Is anyone else with iStop, are they a good ISP, and does the SLA really live up to its promise? - Julian -- [ Julian C. Dunn * ] [ WWW: www.aquezada.com/staff/julian/ * www.dreaming.org/~julian/ ] [ PGP: 0xFDC205B9 - 91B3 7A9D 683C 7C16 715F 442C 6065 D533 FDC2 05B9 ] [ "sometimes you win, sometimes you lose / and most times ] [ you choose between the two" - carole king, "sweet seasons" ] -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jerome-mhXWc29+iYPyG1zEObXtfA at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 25 07:29:00 2003 From: jerome-mhXWc29+iYPyG1zEObXtfA at public.gmane.org (JM) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 15:29:00 +0800 Subject: Mail Setup help! Message-ID: <200311251529.00750.jerome@gmanmi.tv> hi, this is my setup: Internet ---- MAILSERVER (owned by sister company) | | ( LAN ) | Sendmail Box (FreeBSD) ( lies on our sister company's data center ) | | ( LAN ) | Qmail Box (Linux) ( lies on our data center ) currently all mails arrives at MAILSERVER. all mydomain.com is relayed to Sendmail box w/c is where all our mail boxes of mydomain.com users lies. now i want to relay all mails relayed to Sendmail Box to be relayed to Qmail box. can someone point me to a howto on this... info: i can eliminate Sendmail Box.. but i cant because i dont want our sister company to know that we are storing our mails inside our place. because they'll be asking us to use our own internet pipe for mails.. hehehehe.. TIA -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 25 11:12:22 2003 From: fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Fraser Campbell) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 06:12:22 -0500 Subject: Toronto FreeNet massive trouble: where to go now? In-Reply-To: <1069740269.26123.214.camel-sd4rSCkhOeu0gumUbo5taVDdeaDYgqOw@public.gmane.org> References: <1069740269.26123.214.camel@jupiter.acf.aquezada.com> Message-ID: <200311250612.22816.fraser@wehave.net> On November 25, 2003 01:04 am, Julian C. Dunn wrote: > to pay for it. Is anyone else with iStop, are they a good ISP, and does > the SLA really live up to its promise? I am using istop. Quite happy so far, have had a few outages but most of them may have been problems with my firewall (LEAF install with too little ram). Yesterday morning (from 03:00 to 06:00) there were frequent outages ... I didn't investigate but I had a feeling that there may have been routing changes going on. Anyway, I have a static IP and at a significant saving over Bell, I did not opt for an SLA, I've been with istop for a month and I'm happy so far. -- Fraser Campbell http://www.wehave.net/ Georgetown, Ontario, Canada Debian GNU/Linux -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From robert-yzlPDbdf3LosA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 25 13:06:19 2003 From: robert-yzlPDbdf3LosA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Robert McDonald) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 08:06:19 -0500 Subject: Toronto Municipal Open Source Revolution, anyone ? References: Message-ID: <007c01c3b354$eed272e0$0b01a8c0@win98p4> Apparently once a user registers they must be added as a site contributor through the Admin backend. I will be adding users once they verify registration as site contributors. Robert ----- Original Message ----- From: Max Blanco To: Sent: Monday, November 24, 2003 7:57 PM Subject: Re: [TLUG]: Toronto Municipal Open Source Revolution, anyone ? > > Robert, > > Great news! Thanks for the contribution... > > On Sun, 23 Nov 2003, Robert McDonald wrote: > > > I have resourses to offer a comprehensive wiki, forum and blog site for this > > project.. > > > Check this out and if it suits the need of TLUG for this project I'm happy > > to contribute. > > > > http://lampware.info/tiki > > OK, I logged in successfully and wrote a test article, but cannot preview > or submit it. I get an "Alert! Can't open file for uploading" but I have > not told the machine to upload anything. Does anyone else have this > problem? > > IBM KICKS OFF GLOBAL LINUX AD PUSH > > Towards the bottom there is a list of governmental users. > 'sabout time Toronto was on that list. > > Does Debian base install right out of the box on i386 machines? > > I see Xandros is a commercial release of Debian. Where does it differ? > How much trouble does this list figure Xandros went through to make this > difference? > > cheers, > max. > > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From legrady-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 25 14:56:08 2003 From: legrady-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Tom Legrady) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 09:56:08 -0500 Subject: Recycling old computers In-Reply-To: <007c01c3b354$eed272e0$0b01a8c0-VMKVZpoZl3s@public.gmane.org> References: <007c01c3b354$eed272e0$0b01a8c0@win98p4> Message-ID: <3FC36D88.4050500@rogers.com> Who is it who recycles old computers? Please contact me off list. Tom -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lloyd-fEEwcc3XMu8jODpR/OX0VQ at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 25 14:59:06 2003 From: lloyd-fEEwcc3XMu8jODpR/OX0VQ at public.gmane.org (Lloyd D Budd) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 09:59:06 -0500 Subject: new gmane interface? References: Message-ID: On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 18:28:48 -0500, Max Blanco may have wrote: > on IE4 + macintosh, gmane appears to have changed. > It's useless to me now. Did you click through 'http' from http://gmane.org/find.php?list=TLUG I also found the now resulting page unpleasant, but by using the search, I found a URL to the prev: http://search.gmane.org/search.php?group=gmane.org.user-groups.linux.tolug -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lloyd-fEEwcc3XMu8jODpR/OX0VQ at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 25 15:04:16 2003 From: lloyd-fEEwcc3XMu8jODpR/OX0VQ at public.gmane.org (Lloyd D Budd) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 10:04:16 -0500 Subject: mandrake 1st (c)lick Message-ID: <1069772655.18546.1413.camel@localhost> So rite after installing SUSE instead of Mandrake, I (re)discovered that SUSE is not a "sponsor" of Gnome (http://foundation.gnome.org). Yes, I know that you can run Gnome very well on it -- but it still matters to me. So, I downloaded the 1st CD of Mandrake 9.2 (iso) and installed it. The install was clean -- not quite as nice of an interface as SUSE, but with SUSE I had to enter the IP address of a mirror and path to the source (which I had to locate by searching the internet from another computer) before I could start the net install. With Mandrake, I did not see an option to net install, or add internet "sources". Has anyone else found it unnecessarily difficult to figure out how to 'addmedia' during or after the install? The install was very fast, unfortunately it seems that most of what I want is not on the 1st CD. The result is that only IceWM (and probably a couple other lite WM) is installed, and my web browser is currently lynx. Ok, so I want to add the software. Configuration -> Packaging -> "Mandrake Update" -> nope, but I should update the packages that are installed. Do I really have to manually select each one? After a few more clicks through the options under Configuration -> Packaging , I find "Software Media Manager". How do I list the "s/w media" from the command line? I tried using this GUI. Regardless of the hosts, the add kept failing saying there is no hdlist file. I first checked that the host was accessible. Here is an example entry that I have tried to add: URL: ftp://public.ftp.planetmirror.com/pub/mandrake/9.2/i586/Mandrake/RPMS Is there no automatic "mirrorselect"? Ok, back to the web to find some sources easyUrpmi is useful I know see reference to this tool in the TLUG archive. and to at least one good 'addmedia'. Is there a version 9.2 of the documentation? Any one have any Mandrake specific notes / links to pass along? In terms of the club membership, is the cost for Canadians adjusted to CAN standard of living ? -- Mandrake seems to want me to fill out the forms before it is clear what currency I will be charged in. Thank you, Lloyd Other notes: SUSE's boot up also seems "cleaner". For one, there is the option to have only a progress bar. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 25 15:05:13 2003 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 10:05:13 -0500 Subject: solved, was Re: arrgh! "smrsh: uid 1000: attempt to use procmail -f-" In-Reply-To: References: <20031125031201.GA31227@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20031125150513.GA19871@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Nov 24, 2003 at 10:54:52PM -0500, Max Blanco wrote: > No. I would expect it to ask first. The sendmail package does that > already; I don't see why procmail couldn't check the sendmail.mc and, if > it needed changing, ask nicely. dselect has an option for that called > "[C]onfig". 8) I just can't imagine anyone purposely using sendmail with all the nice choices out there. > I think that mailer that uses "Maildir" format instead of "mbox"... exim uses mbox by default. With some tweaking of the config (a few lines changed) it can do Maildir. Lennart Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 25 15:11:47 2003 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 10:11:47 -0500 Subject: Mail and Web Server behind a firewall In-Reply-To: <1069732464.28008.137.camel-VXIkh0TWzyg@public.gmane.org> References: <65B7B304AA3DE147BBD33938FE204E284A94B9@lynchmail.lynch.msft> <1069732464.28008.137.camel@yoda> Message-ID: <20031125151147.GB19871@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Nov 24, 2003 at 10:54:23PM -0500, Kareem Shehata wrote: > The problem isn't internal machines finding the server, it's the > services on the server becoming concerned. I use name-based virtual > servers in Apache, which will scream if the DNS entry for the virtual > server name doesn't match the IP of the interface. Not sure about > qmail, but I have a feeling it won't like it much either. In my experience as long as apache is configured with the internal IP for virtual serving it doesn't care what the real ip of any of the server names it serves are set to. I have never seen it complain about it. > Surely someone else on the list has run into a similar problem, and > hopefully come up with an elegant solution? You just do it. Apache does not complain about virtual server name/ip resolution. Well at least not here they don't. ie: NameVirtualHost 192.168.8.15 ServerAdmin info-CsKiSt0GBdG+XT7JhA+gdA at public.gmane.org ServerName www.someserver.com ServerAlias someserver.com someserver.net www.someserver.net DocumentRoot /home/www/virtual/someserver ErrorLog /var/log/apache/someserver-error_log CustomLog /var/log/apache/someserver-access_log combined Works just fine here. Lennart Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 25 15:17:43 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 10:17:43 -0500 Subject: mandrake 1st (c)lick In-Reply-To: <1069772655.18546.1413.camel-bi+AKbBUZKZeoWH0uzbU5w@public.gmane.org> References: <1069772655.18546.1413.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <20031125101743.4643b70f.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Tue, 25 Nov 2003 10:04:16 -0500 Lloyd D Budd wrote: > With Mandrake, I did not see an option to net install, or add internet > "sources". Has anyone else found it unnecessarily difficult to figure > out how to 'addmedia' during or after the install? Easy as pie. The actual command is urpmi.addmedia, but this site lets you add sources by selecting the appropriate mirrors and then just copy and paste the command into a term. http://plf.zarb.org/~nanardon/index.php Follow the steps and you'll have all the sources you need. If you look at "man urpmi", there are a lot of tools mentioned that beat the heck out of the GUI interface for package management, for example, urpmq [packagename] will search through all the sources available for software matching that name. Still not as good as Debian's Apt, but it's getting there. -- JoeHill ++ ICQ # 280779813 Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "If the Nuremberg laws were applied, then every post-war American president would have been hanged." -- Noam Chomsky -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From aacton-B71PBEe7S7Y at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 25 15:44:26 2003 From: aacton-B71PBEe7S7Y at public.gmane.org (Austin) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 10:44:26 -0500 Subject: mandrake 1st (c)lick In-Reply-To: <1069772655.18546.1413.camel-bi+AKbBUZKZeoWH0uzbU5w@public.gmane.org> References: <1069772655.18546.1413.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <1069775064.2142.8.camel@gamma373-365.portable.resnet.yorku.ca> On Tue, 2003-11-25 at 10:04, Lloyd D Budd wrote: > So rite after installing SUSE instead of Mandrake, I (re)discovered that > SUSE is not a "sponsor" of Gnome (http://foundation.gnome.org). Yes, I > know that you can run Gnome very well on it -- but it still matters to > me. Cool! Nice to see GNOME supporters one in a while. GO GNOME! (2.4 of course) > With Mandrake, I did not see an option to net install, or add internet > "sources". Has anyone else found it unnecessarily difficult to figure > out how to 'addmedia' during or after the install? It's in the menu: Configuration - Packaging - Software Media Manager Or you can use urpmi directly... see the man page. > The install was very fast, unfortunately it seems that most of what I > want is not on the 1st CD. The result is that only IceWM (and probably > a couple other lite WM) is installed, and my web browser is currently > lynx. Well, there are 3 CDs, so only low-level stuff goes on CD1. > Ok, so I want to add the software. Configuration -> Packaging -> > "Mandrake Update" -> nope, but I should update the packages that are > installed. Do I really have to manually select each one? What do you mean 'update'? Mandrake does not provide updates to stable releases unless they are severe security fixes. If you have the security updates configured, just # urpmi --auto-select will upgrade them all. > Is there no automatic "mirrorselect"? Yes, there is. It's called urpmi.setup. Paradoxically, you need the source setup properly to install it so that you can setup the source properly. Fun, isn't it. Just download the RPM and install it instead. > Any one have any Mandrake specific notes / links to pass along? The wiki is very helpful: http://qa.mandrakesoft.com/wiki > SUSE's boot up also seems "cleaner". For one, there is the option to > have only a progress bar. Mandrake would be the same had you used all three CDs. Bootsplash is obviously not on CD1. Austin -- Austin Acton Synthetic Organic Chemist, Teaching Assistant, Ph.D. Candidate Department of Chemistry, York University, Toronto MandrakeLinux Volunteer Developer, homepage: www.groundstate.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 25 15:48:10 2003 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 10:48:10 -0500 Subject: mandrake 1st (c)lick In-Reply-To: <1069775064.2142.8.camel-33sJirT1wKzlb5+wx7kmt/BjuwtQqDz/bwi28uEu5RN+FfftCXEu2Q@public.gmane.org> References: <1069772655.18546.1413.camel@localhost> <1069775064.2142.8.camel@gamma373-365.portable.resnet.yorku.ca> Message-ID: <20031125154810.GC19871@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Nov 25, 2003 at 10:44:26AM -0500, Austin wrote: [snip] > Mandrake would be the same had you used all three CDs. Bootsplash is > obviously not on CD1. Debian (which has 8CDs) puts what most people se on the first cd, and then puts more and more obscure things on later CDs, so that most people only need the first or maybe second CD. That is how a smart person would organize it. No need to force people to download all the CDs because the installer is on CD1 and all the useful stuff you want is somewhere else. Lennart Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From aacton-B71PBEe7S7Y at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 25 15:59:03 2003 From: aacton-B71PBEe7S7Y at public.gmane.org (Austin) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 10:59:03 -0500 Subject: mandrake 1st (c)lick In-Reply-To: <20031125154810.GC19871-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <1069772655.18546.1413.camel@localhost> <1069775064.2142.8.camel@gamma373-365.portable.resnet.yorku.ca> <20031125154810.GC19871@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <1069775941.2138.27.camel@gamma373-365.portable.resnet.yorku.ca> On Tue, 2003-11-25 at 10:48, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > Debian (which has 8CDs) puts what most people se on the first cd, and > then puts more and more obscure things on later CDs, so that most people > only need the first or maybe second CD. That is how a smart person > would organize it. No need to force people to download all the CDs > because the installer is on CD1 and all the useful stuff you want is > somewhere else. That is also how Mandrake is set up. They just don't consider bootsplash to be in the top 33% of important packages. Nor do I. You'll notice that CD1 alone will give you a complete graphical unix system... just no GNOME or KDE. Austin -- Austin Acton Synthetic Organic Chemist, Teaching Assistant, Ph.D. Candidate Department of Chemistry, York University, Toronto MandrakeLinux Volunteer Developer, homepage: www.groundstate.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From skuznets-WRMZ5ucGVl4BXFe83j6qeQ at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 25 16:30:24 2003 From: skuznets-WRMZ5ucGVl4BXFe83j6qeQ at public.gmane.org (Sergey Kuznetsov) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 11:30:24 -0500 Subject: Toronto FreeNet massive trouble: where to go now? In-Reply-To: <1069740269.26123.214.camel-sd4rSCkhOeu0gumUbo5taVDdeaDYgqOw@public.gmane.org> References: <1069740269.26123.214.camel@jupiter.acf.aquezada.com> Message-ID: <200311251130.24143.skuznets@blueprint.org> > I'm also a poor tfnet.ca user. Here I thought I was supporting a > community ISP and the next thing I know I'm being resold a crappy > Velocet DSL line. Someone mentioned that they are using iStop. I'm > intrigued by the promise of an SLA if one pays $10/month. Since I depend > on the uptime of this line for my business, it would make business sense > to pay for it. Is anyone else with iStop, are they a good ISP, and does > the SLA really live up to its promise? I am in proccess of moving to IStop (Istop and me fighting togwether against of evil Bell technicians, who cannot correctly fix my profile on their DSLAM). The technical support looks very fast responsive and helpful. I heard lots of positive feedbacks from my co-workers, who using IStop service for quite awhile. At the same time here is Ralph Doncaster, who is your quality assurance feedback to IStop =) -- All the Best! ----------------- Sergey Kuznetsov Senior Software Developer Blueprint Initiative Samuel Lunenfeld Research Institute at Mount Sinai Hospital -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 25 15:59:28 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 10:59:28 -0500 Subject: mandrake 1st (c)lick In-Reply-To: <1069775064.2142.8.camel-33sJirT1wKzlb5+wx7kmt/BjuwtQqDz/bwi28uEu5RN+FfftCXEu2Q@public.gmane.org> References: <1069772655.18546.1413.camel@localhost> <1069775064.2142.8.camel@gamma373-365.portable.resnet.yorku.ca> Message-ID: <20031125105928.470c748d.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Tue, 25 Nov 2003 10:44:26 -0500 Austin wrote: > Mandrake would be the same had you used all three CDs. Bootsplash is > obviously not on CD1. I actually prefer to get rid of the bootsplash anyway, you can set VGA=794 in /etc/lilo.conf, that way your text mode is 1024x768, nicer to work with than that ginormous blocky text. Plus you get to see any errors on boot that you otherwise might miss. 'Course, I've never seen any errors yet, but that's Linux! -- JoeHill ++ ICQ # 280779813 Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "The philosophers have only interpreted the world in various ways. The point, however, is to change it." -- Karl Marx -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From aitken-BwLjziHGQLusTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 25 15:26:57 2003 From: aitken-BwLjziHGQLusTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Chris Aitken) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 10:26:57 -0500 Subject: Has anybody tried Xandros OS? References: <3FC11D00.10701@sympatico.ca> <1069645453.24781.3.camel@stimpy.mora.ca> Message-ID: <3FC374C1.B5758147@onlink.net> Paul Mora wrote: > [...] > > Xandros also includes Crossover's Office and Plugin products, so if you > must run those Windows apps and browser plugins, you can do it. Xandros > is all Debian under the covers. How friendly is it to running Windows games? I use other distributions, but I would love to make a gift of an easy, Windows-games-friendly distribution for my son. I have enough linux projects on the go without getting into wine. I would love to say, "Never mind Windows 98 - CivilWar General and Warcraft will run in Xandros. Merry Christmas." Chris -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From sidney-3Kd7Tu4o6f/sBN0MCq728g at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 25 16:44:56 2003 From: sidney-3Kd7Tu4o6f/sBN0MCq728g at public.gmane.org (Sidney Shapiro) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 11:44:56 -0500 Subject: Toronto FreeNet massive trouble: where to go now? In-Reply-To: <200311251130.24143.skuznets-WRMZ5ucGVl4BXFe83j6qeQ@public.gmane.org> References: <200311251130.24143.skuznets@blueprint.org> Message-ID: <003a01c3b373$78cc6d20$6401a8c0@main> > > I am in proccess of moving to IStop (Istop and me fighting togwether > against of evil Bell technicians, who cannot correctly fix my profile on > their DSLAM). The technical support looks very fast responsive and > helpful. > > I heard lots of positive feedbacks from my co-workers, who using > IStop service for quite awhile. At the same time here is Ralph Doncaster, > who is your quality assurance feedback to IStop =) > I would switch to something other than Rogers if they offered unlimited downloads. For the amount of bandwidth I use, Rogers appears to be the cheapest alternative at $50 or so a month. Sid -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lloyd-fEEwcc3XMu8jODpR/OX0VQ at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 25 18:48:19 2003 From: lloyd-fEEwcc3XMu8jODpR/OX0VQ at public.gmane.org (Lloyd D Budd) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 13:48:19 -0500 Subject: mandrake 1st (c)lick In-Reply-To: <1069775941.2138.27.camel-33sJirT1wKzlb5+wx7kmt/BjuwtQqDz/bwi28uEu5RN+FfftCXEu2Q@public.gmane.org> References: <1069772655.18546.1413.camel@localhost> <1069775064.2142.8.camel@gamma373-365.portable.resnet.yorku.ca> <20031125154810.GC19871@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <1069775941.2138.27.camel@gamma373-365.portable.resnet.yorku.ca> Message-ID: <1069786099.1224.5.camel@localhost> On Tue, 2003-11-25 at 10:59, Austin wrote: > On Tue, 2003-11-25 at 10:48, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > > Debian (which has 8CDs) puts what most people se on the first cd, and > > then puts more and more obscure things on later CDs, so that most people > > only need the first or maybe second CD. That is how a smart person > > would organize it. No need to force people to download all the CDs > > because the installer is on CD1 and all the useful stuff you want is > > somewhere else. > > That is also how Mandrake is set up. > They just don't consider bootsplash to be in the top 33% of important > packages. Nor do I. > You'll notice that CD1 alone will give you a complete graphical unix > system... just no GNOME or KDE. And no English documentations :-p -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From skuznets-WRMZ5ucGVl4BXFe83j6qeQ at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 25 17:21:19 2003 From: skuznets-WRMZ5ucGVl4BXFe83j6qeQ at public.gmane.org (Sergey Kuznetsov) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 12:21:19 -0500 Subject: Toronto FreeNet massive trouble: where to go now? In-Reply-To: <003a01c3b373$78cc6d20$6401a8c0-UxDKcUsq0RM@public.gmane.org> References: <003a01c3b373$78cc6d20$6401a8c0@main> Message-ID: <200311251221.19761.skuznets@blueprint.org> On November 25, 2003 11:44 am, Sidney Shapiro wrote: > I would switch to something other than Rogers if they offered unlimited > downloads. For the amount of bandwidth I use, Rogers appears to be the > cheapest alternative at $50 or so a month. For IStop PPPoE users you can have unlimited download from 2 am to 10 am, but you have to reestablish your pppoe connection twice ( at 2:01am and 9:59am ) because of billing purposes. -- All the Best! ----------------- Sergey Kuznetsov Senior Software Developer Blueprint Initiative Samuel Lunenfeld Research Institute at Mount Sinai Hospital -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From aitken-BwLjziHGQLusTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 25 16:56:56 2003 From: aitken-BwLjziHGQLusTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Chris Aitken) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 11:56:56 -0500 Subject: AbiWord 0.99.5 tables? Message-ID: <3FC389D8.E93655BA@onlink.net> Has anyone ever created a table in AbiWord? Only entry in Help > Index is that .rtf will preserve tables when converting from Word. No entry in Help > Contents. On google I found that tables are created from the Table toolbar, which I don't seem to have, Table toolbar is invoked from View menu - again, nothing there. Maybe AbiWord 0.99.5 cannot create tables? AbiWord 0.99.5 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 25 17:58:40 2003 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 12:58:40 -0500 Subject: Mail Setup help! In-Reply-To: <200311251529.00750.jerome-mhXWc29+iYPyG1zEObXtfA@public.gmane.org> References: <200311251529.00750.jerome@gmanmi.tv> Message-ID: <20031125175840.GA319@node1.opengeometry.net> On Tue, Nov 25, 2003 at 03:29:00PM +0800, JM wrote: > hi, > > this is my setup: > > Internet ---- MAILSERVER (owned by sister company) > | > | ( LAN ) > | > Sendmail Box (FreeBSD) ( lies on our sister company's data center ) > | > | ( LAN ) > | > Qmail Box (Linux) ( lies on our data center ) > > currently all mails arrives at MAILSERVER. all mydomain.com is relayed to > Sendmail box w/c is where all our mail boxes of mydomain.com users lies. > > now i want to relay all mails relayed to Sendmail Box to be relayed to Qmail > box. can someone point me to a howto on this... > > info: > i can eliminate Sendmail Box.. but i cant because i dont want our sister > company to know that we are storing our mails inside our place. because > they'll be asking us to use our own internet pipe for mails.. hehehehe.. Turn into secondary MX for and tell it not to accept mails for . Hmm, - edit zonefile - edit /etc/mail/local-host-names or .mc source Turn into primary MX for . -- William Park, Open Geometry Consulting, Linux solution for data management and processing. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 25 19:29:16 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 14:29:16 -0500 Subject: Novell-Suse acquisition "ripping the legal rug right out from under SCO." Message-ID: <20031125142916.64514a6a.joehill@sympatico.ca> Quote: "Yes, the operating system itself is a commodity, Nugent added, "But the distribution is not." But if that didn't make it clear, this next statement did: "By doing this, we can make sure there are no problems with dependencies [in Novell's application stack] or intellectual property." We were getting warmer. In talking to customers, Nugent went onto explain, Novell was told over and over again that there needed to be at least two enterprise Linux offerings (Red Hat being the other) with the backing of a large global company. I wondered if that was the message that IBM was getting too. Generally speaking, "backing of a large global company" equals assurance. So, let's add this up, against the backdrop of indemnification. We've got two companies --- IBM and Novell --- both of which have made heavy technology and marketing investments in Linux and open source (including Novell's recent acquisition of Ximian). One of the companies (IBM) is the subject of a giant lawsuit from the company that claims to own the intellectual property rights to the technology in Linux. The other is a company that, dating back to its UnixWare days, is rumored to still have just enough Unix intellectual property rights to be immune to the wrath of SCO. The customers of these two companies want some assurances, and the CTO of Novell wants to provide them in the way of solid stack interoperation and issue-free intellectual property rights. Are we getting warm yet?" link: http://techupdate.zdnet.com/techupdate/stories/main/novell_suse.html -- JoeHill ++ ICQ # 280779813 Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "Reality is what you can get away with." -- Robert Anton Wilson -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From zhunt-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 25 21:04:19 2003 From: zhunt-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (Zoltan) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 15:04:19 -0600 Subject: Lindows Moving into Canada References: Message-ID: <01ac01c3b397$b1856990$ee08e540@D2XGQ811> Sure was, the Globe' Canadian, eh. Someones been watching too much Global TV? :) Z ----- Original Message ----- From: "Justin Zygmont" To: Sent: Saturday, November 22, 2003 10:43 AM Subject: Re: [TLUG]: Lindows Moving into Canada > it must have been a canadian site that wrote that story, they're trying to > make it sound like canada actually does something, just because lindows is > being sold now. > > > On Sat, 22 Nov 2003, Fraser Campbell wrote: > > > On November 21, 2003 10:15 pm, Glen Strom wrote: > > > Globe and Mail story > > > > > > > > http://www.globetechnology.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20031120.gtlind1120/BNStory/Technology/ > > > > Not just Canada but if you read the Lindows release they're apparently moving > > into the "greater Canada area" ;-) > > > > > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 25 21:08:14 2003 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 16:08:14 -0500 Subject: mandrake 1st (c)lick In-Reply-To: <1069775941.2138.27.camel-33sJirT1wKzlb5+wx7kmt/BjuwtQqDz/bwi28uEu5RN+FfftCXEu2Q@public.gmane.org> References: <1069772655.18546.1413.camel@localhost> <1069775064.2142.8.camel@gamma373-365.portable.resnet.yorku.ca> <20031125154810.GC19871@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <1069775941.2138.27.camel@gamma373-365.portable.resnet.yorku.ca> Message-ID: <20031125210814.GA32163@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Nov 25, 2003 at 10:59:03AM -0500, Austin wrote: > That is also how Mandrake is set up. > They just don't consider bootsplash to be in the top 33% of important > packages. Nor do I. > You'll notice that CD1 alone will give you a complete graphical unix > system... just no GNOME or KDE. OK, at least that is reasonable then. I agree Gnome and KDE can go somewhere other than the first CD. Lennart Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jzygmont-tEQKYFGiemxAYG7eUwYNkWD2FQJk+8+b at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 25 21:24:58 2003 From: jzygmont-tEQKYFGiemxAYG7eUwYNkWD2FQJk+8+b at public.gmane.org (Justin Zygmont) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 16:24:58 -0500 (EST) Subject: mandrake 1st (c)lick In-Reply-To: <1069772655.18546.1413.camel-bi+AKbBUZKZeoWH0uzbU5w@public.gmane.org> References: <1069772655.18546.1413.camel@localhost> Message-ID: > With Mandrake, I did not see an option to net install, or add internet > "sources". Has anyone else found it unnecessarily difficult to figure > out how to 'addmedia' during or after the install? I tried using the network.img, that will let you fo a ftp, nfs, http install. Unfortunately, it could not find the stage2 image from the ftp sites even after I made sure I had the correct path. So far it looks pretty good to me, and most distros are much better than what I remember just a few years ago. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jzygmont-tEQKYFGiemxAYG7eUwYNkWD2FQJk+8+b at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 25 21:54:35 2003 From: jzygmont-tEQKYFGiemxAYG7eUwYNkWD2FQJk+8+b at public.gmane.org (Justin Zygmont) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 16:54:35 -0500 (EST) Subject: Lindows Moving into Canada In-Reply-To: <01ac01c3b397$b1856990$ee08e540-9Ju/zT+hGic@public.gmane.org> References: <01ac01c3b397$b1856990$ee08e540@D2XGQ811> Message-ID: At first glance, the title makes it sound like lindows moved its company into canada or something spectacular. And all they're doing is bothering to sell lindows on this side of the border now:) That probably wouldn't even make news if was US. On Tue, 25 Nov 2003, Zoltan wrote: > Sure was, the Globe' Canadian, eh. Someones been watching too much Global > TV? :) > > Z > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Justin Zygmont" > To: > Sent: Saturday, November 22, 2003 10:43 AM > Subject: Re: [TLUG]: Lindows Moving into Canada > > > > it must have been a canadian site that wrote that story, they're trying to > > make it sound like canada actually does something, just because lindows is > > being sold now. > > > > > > On Sat, 22 Nov 2003, Fraser Campbell wrote: > > > > > On November 21, 2003 10:15 pm, Glen Strom wrote: > > > > Globe and Mail story > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.globetechnology.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20031120.gtlind1120/BNStory/Technology/ > > > > > > Not just Canada but if you read the Lindows release they're apparently > moving > > > into the "greater Canada area" ;-) > > > > > > > > > > -- > > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > > > > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From Stan-PAleLrdANoqY+5vIsb+96wC/G2K4zDHf at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 25 22:04:21 2003 From: Stan-PAleLrdANoqY+5vIsb+96wC/G2K4zDHf at public.gmane.org (Stan Witkowski) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 17:04:21 -0500 Subject: Toronto FreeNet massive trouble: where to go now? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.2.20031125164711.0218eb20@mail.the-wire.com> > >Can some kind soul recommend a good DSL ISP, preferably from personal >experience? See: www.istop.com I have friends using Istop's services for business and also for personal use, and all report good experiences. Also - Ralph Doncaster (Istop's owner) posts in the can.internet.highspeed newsgroup from time to time - how many ISP owners do that? Aside: Actually, now that I think of it, VERY few people working at ANY ISP interact in local newsgroups (or local anything). I find that curious - if I owned an ISP, I'd jump right in and politely mention my products and services in a friendly way every time. That SLIGHT extra pro-active note could mean more $$$ for me. Ralph's (as he has posted) target customer is the more astute technical one. That's likely a polite way of saying that Istop would prefer that their customers actually *DO* know their collective asses from holes in the ground, so such forums as these (newsgroups, mailing lists, etc.) would seem to me to be great places for companies like Istop to step up and speak up in. Not in-your-face "BUY-BUY-at Honest Ed's" complete with flashing lights, but low key "this is what we can do for you, and at this price" kind of stuff. Aside: I remember a garage sale we had once on a side street. Only a handful of customers came (nearby homes) upon opening. Then I went out to the two main roads and put up day-glo pink "YARD SALE >>>" signs along with day-glo pink ">>>>>" reminders on every block up to the sale. Within *10 MINUTES* of those signs over 30 cars stopped at our table, and then they just kept on coming! We made several hundred $$$ that morning selling off old junk. THAT taught me more about about marketing and advertising in one shot than a couple of decades of computer work did!!! Stan. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Nov 25 23:14:38 2003 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 18:14:38 -0500 Subject: Lindows Moving into Canada In-Reply-To: <01ac01c3b397$b1856990$ee08e540-9Ju/zT+hGic@public.gmane.org> References: <01ac01c3b397$b1856990$ee08e540@D2XGQ811> Message-ID: <3FC3E25E.2070001@rogers.com> I prefer CTV. ;-) Zoltan wrote: > Sure was, the Globe' Canadian, eh. Someones been watching too much Global > TV? :) > > Z > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Justin Zygmont" > To: > Sent: Saturday, November 22, 2003 10:43 AM > Subject: Re: [TLUG]: Lindows Moving into Canada > > > >>it must have been a canadian site that wrote that story, they're trying to >>make it sound like canada actually does something, just because lindows is >>being sold now. >> >> >>On Sat, 22 Nov 2003, Fraser Campbell wrote: >> >> >>>On November 21, 2003 10:15 pm, Glen Strom wrote: >>> >>>>Globe and Mail story >>>> >>>> >>> > http://www.globetechnology.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20031120.gtlind1120/BNStory/Technology/ > >>>Not just Canada but if you read the Lindows release they're apparently > > moving > >>>into the "greater Canada area" ;-) >>> >>> >> >>-- >>The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org >>TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >>How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml >> > > > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 26 00:14:14 2003 From: john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (John Moniz) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 19:14:14 -0500 Subject: Has anybody tried Xandros OS? In-Reply-To: <3FC374C1.B5758147-BwLjziHGQLusTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FC11D00.10701@sympatico.ca> <1069645453.24781.3.camel@stimpy.mora.ca> <3FC374C1.B5758147@onlink.net> Message-ID: <3FC3F056.60304@sympatico.ca> Chris Aitken wrote: >Paul Mora wrote: > > > >>[...] >> >>Xandros also includes Crossover's Office and Plugin products, so if you >>must run those Windows apps and browser plugins, you can do it. Xandros >>is all Debian under the covers. >> >> > >How friendly is it to running Windows games? I use other distributions, but > >I would love to make a gift of an easy, Windows-games-friendly distribution > >for my son. > >I have enough linux projects on the go without getting into wine. I would >love >to say, "Never mind Windows 98 - CivilWar General and Warcraft will run in >Xandros. Merry Christmas." > >Chris > > To run windows games, you may want to look at WineX from Transgaming at http://www.transgaming.com/ . It requires a monthly membership. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jmyshrall-6duGhz7i8susTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 26 01:06:44 2003 From: jmyshrall-6duGhz7i8susTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (John Myshrall) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 20:06:44 -0500 Subject: Toronto FreeNet massive trouble: where to go now? In-Reply-To: <20031125045543.GA441-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20031125045543.GA441@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <20031125200644.03a91d14.jmyshrall@golden.net> On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 23:55:43 -0500 > On Mon, Nov 24, 2003 at 08:37:34PM +0000, verbum-qazKcTl6WRFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org wrote: > > Can some kind soul recommend a good DSL ISP, preferably from personal > > experience? You could post to this listerv, OR e-mail me directly > > (verbum-qazKcTl6WRFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org). > I'm using Golden Net. Good price, good tech and good service http://www.golden.net/ You can also try http://www.canadianisp.com/ John -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From kmastin-PzQIwG9Jn9VAFePFGvp55w at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 26 01:13:29 2003 From: kmastin-PzQIwG9Jn9VAFePFGvp55w at public.gmane.org (Keith Mastin) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 20:13:29 -0500 (EST) Subject: Debian Updates In-Reply-To: <20031123061550.79f1de57.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FBFB82A.9000404@enoreo.on.ca><20031122163208.0d02c014.joehill@sympatico.ca><200311230011.27158.fraser@wehave.net> <20031123061550.79f1de57.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <1372.216.138.194.32.1069809209.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> > On Sun, 23 Nov 2003 00:11:26 -0500 > Fraser Campbell wrote: > >> Wild, install a large piece of software that provides network access >> to the root account ... as opposed to typing the command "crontab -e". >>To each their own! > > Well, unless he opens port 10000 on his firewall and makes the root > password "blinky", I think he'd be okay ;-) I assumed (mistake, prolly) > that sending him off on a hunt for a crontab how-to would be cruel. You > gotta admit, crontab can be a beotch for newbs...got the sense Mark > might be almost as newbish as m'self. He doesn't need to have a weak password if he's ending it in plaintext over a network connection. Even telnet has the sense not to allow rtoot access in plain text. man crontab and such will teach him infinately more about linux, his machine and using cron than webmin ever will. Not only tht, but webmin and linuxconf and such only give a small portion of the range of possibilities that a lot of the programs can actually do. You are limiting your understanding of the OS. Not saying don't do it, just consider the possibilities. -- Keith -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From adb-tlug-AbAJl/g/NLXk1uMJSBkQmQ at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 26 03:57:40 2003 From: adb-tlug-AbAJl/g/NLXk1uMJSBkQmQ at public.gmane.org (Anthony de Boer) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 22:57:40 -0500 Subject: Toronto FreeNet massive trouble: where to go now? In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.2.20031125164711.0218eb20-ZEWhMxyTXSNv1tLSo3TydwC/G2K4zDHf@public.gmane.org>; from Stan-PAleLrdANoqY+5vIsb+96wC/G2K4zDHf@public.gmane.org on Tue, Nov 25, 2003 at 05:04:21PM -0500 References: <5.2.1.1.2.20031125164711.0218eb20@mail.the-wire.com> Message-ID: <20031125225740.D5352@leftmind.net> Stan Witkowski wrote: > Aside: Actually, now that I think of it, VERY few people working at ANY ISP > interact in local newsgroups (or local anything). I post here from time to time, and even show up at the occasional TLUG meeting; you didn't leave me behind on NetCan ][. However, the ISP I work at is in the business market and doesn't compete at the low-price residential end of things. -- Anthony de Boer -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From dstubbs-ZsETY1VsSgK5ibTBNBZY+dUNXN58jlyp at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 26 04:03:39 2003 From: dstubbs-ZsETY1VsSgK5ibTBNBZY+dUNXN58jlyp at public.gmane.org (Dave Stubbs) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 23:03:39 -0500 Subject: What are good Firewalls In-Reply-To: <3FBFB979.4080705-NOBIIgrgD1YV+D8aMU/kSg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FBFB979.4080705@enoreo.on.ca> Message-ID: <3FC4261B.5000303@penguin.8inchfloppy.com> Mark Vining wrote: > I have an extra P150 that I am going to set up as a firewall. Are > there any good Debian Packages I should look at? To get you started, the Linux Firewall module in Webmin is a great way to create IPtables rules. Dave... -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From paulmora-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 26 04:21:17 2003 From: paulmora-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Paul Mora) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 23:21:17 -0500 Subject: Free Stuff Message-ID: <1069820477.31158.3.camel@stimpy.mora.ca> I've got the following items available for FREE (as in beer) for anyone who wants them. - IBM Thinkpad Selectabase 700 (port replicator for IBM Thinkpad 700 models); brand-new never been used before - Corel Wordperfect for Linux 8 Personal Edition; CD and book, and official serial number card included - SAMS book "Teach Yourself StarOffice 5 for Linux in 24 Hours" with official Sun Staroffice 5.2 CD If you're interested in any or all of the above items, please contact me off list. Thanks, pm -- Paul Mora -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From aitken-BwLjziHGQLusTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 26 03:57:59 2003 From: aitken-BwLjziHGQLusTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Chris Aitken) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 22:57:59 -0500 Subject: Has anybody tried Xandros OS? References: <3FC11D00.10701@sympatico.ca> <1069645453.24781.3.camel@stimpy.mora.ca> <3FC374C1.B5758147@onlink.net> <3FC3F056.60304@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <3FC424C7.3F54FE3F@onlink.net> John Moniz wrote: > Chris Aitken wrote: > > [...] > > > >I have enough linux projects on the go without getting into wine. I would > >love > >to say, "Never mind Windows 98 - CivilWar General and Warcraft will run in > >Xandros. Merry Christmas." > > > >Chris > > > > > To run windows games, you may want to look at WineX from Transgaming at > http://www.transgaming.com/ . It requires a monthly membership. Thanks - I had a look. It looks like I'll need an Athlon for that - mine's a Duron (800). [sigh] It's always something. : ( Chris -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From aitken-BwLjziHGQLusTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 26 04:00:32 2003 From: aitken-BwLjziHGQLusTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Chris Aitken) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 23:00:32 -0500 Subject: IBM Linux Video, going OT... References: <20031123123507.7c2878d4.joehill@sympatico.ca> <20031123140055.198db950.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <3FC42560.F86875A7@onlink.net> JoeHill wrote: > On Sun, 23 Nov 2003 13:48:34 -0500 (EST) > Max Blanco wrote: > > > > > This can be seen in agglomerations lke sourceforge, which can be > > considered as a kind of bazaar marketplace, bizarre? bazaar? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From blsonne-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 26 06:11:53 2003 From: blsonne-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Byron Sonne) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 01:11:53 -0500 Subject: OT: I'd like some free stuff! Message-ID: <3FC44429.4010804@rogers.com> Hey all, I need to add another SCSI drive to my system but I have no space in the case. Anyone have any powered external drive cases? Hoping for a reasonable price... I've collected some stuff over the years and I'd be willing to barter too. It could be either for a single drive and no removable bezel, or a tower config with removable bezels for CD/tape drives as well. I wouldn't mind slapping my burner, DAT and extra drive into one case and getting a couple spots on my powerbar back. Either Centronics (see bottom of pic in link) or Champ (top of pic, sometimes called SCSI-2) connectors are fine, though Centronics would be preferable. No need for terminators, I've got a few lying around. (http://www.nikon-euro.com/nikoneuro_en/images/graphics/scsiconn.jpg). Regards, Byron -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 26 10:32:03 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 05:32:03 -0500 Subject: Debian Updates In-Reply-To: <1372.216.138.194.32.1069809209.squirrel-16UnNR4aCrhlws70yGkXPA@public.gmane.org> References: <3FBFB82A.9000404@enoreo.on.ca> <20031122163208.0d02c014.joehill@sympatico.ca> <200311230011.27158.fraser@wehave.net> <20031123061550.79f1de57.joehill@sympatico.ca> <1372.216.138.194.32.1069809209.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> Message-ID: <20031126053203.38f0447f.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Tue, 25 Nov 2003 20:13:29 -0500 (EST) "Keith Mastin" wrote: > He doesn't need to have a weak password if he's ending it in plaintext > over a network connection. Even telnet has the sense not to allow rtoot > access in plain text. Webmin is https, not plain text. And again, unless port 10000 was open on the firewall, Webmin won't even exist to the outside world. It's meant primarily to be a local interface anyway, from what I've seen. If someone's sniffing his internal network, he's already owned. > man crontab and such will teach him infinately more about linux, his > machine and using cron than webmin ever will. Not only tht, but webmin and > linuxconf and such only give a small portion of the range of possibilities > that a lot of the programs can actually do. You are limiting your > understanding of the OS. Not saying don't do it, just consider the > possibilities. I don't see that. While cron-apt is certainly a more appropriate sol'n, as Fraser suggested, I don't see how crontab will open up more possibilities. You set a time/date, and a command to run. Just in Webmin you don't have to wrap your noggin around what all those stars mean, where to put them, etc. I'd rather spend my time learning BIND or Virtual Hosts. Now *that* is where you should get your hands dirty ;-) -- JoeHill ++ ICQ # 280779813 Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "If the Nuremberg laws were applied, then every post-war American president would have been hanged."-- Noam Chomsky -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 26 10:34:08 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 05:34:08 -0500 Subject: IBM Linux Video, going OT... In-Reply-To: <3FC42560.F86875A7-BwLjziHGQLusTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org> References: <20031123123507.7c2878d4.joehill@sympatico.ca> <20031123140055.198db950.joehill@sympatico.ca> <3FC42560.F86875A7@onlink.net> Message-ID: <20031126053408.4df3ef91.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Tue, 25 Nov 2003 23:00:32 -0500 Chris Aitken wrote: > bizarre? bazaar? Maybe a bit o' both! -- JoeHill ++ ICQ # 280779813 Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "Athens built the Acropolis. Corinth was a commercial city, interested in purely materialistic things. Today we admire Athens, visit it, preserve the old temples, yet we hardly ever set foot in Corinth."-- Dr. Harold Urey, Nobel Laureate in chemistry -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 26 10:56:48 2003 From: fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Fraser Campbell) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 05:56:48 -0500 Subject: Kernel 2.6 and wheelmouse In-Reply-To: <200310311003.00189.fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org> References: <200310311003.00189.fraser@wehave.net> Message-ID: <200311260556.48852.fraser@wehave.net> On October 31, 2003 10:03 am, Fraser Campbell wrote: > Here are the modules I'm using that I think are relevant: > > usbkbd 7296 0 > usbcore 106708 3 ehci_hcd,hid,usbkbd > psmouse 16780 0 > mousedev 9696 1 Finally looked at this again last night, I had been missing the module uhci_hcd, now the wheelmouse works just fine in X using the same config as in the 2.6 kernel, which is: Section "InputDevice" Identifier "Configured Mouse" Driver "mouse" Option "CorePointer" #Option "Device" "/dev/psaux" Option "Device" "/dev/input/mice" Option "Protocol" "ImPS/2" Option "ZAxisMapping" "4 5" EndSection -- Fraser Campbell http://www.wehave.net/ Georgetown, Ontario, Canada Debian GNU/Linux -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From kmastin-PzQIwG9Jn9VAFePFGvp55w at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 26 18:38:23 2003 From: kmastin-PzQIwG9Jn9VAFePFGvp55w at public.gmane.org (Keith Mastin) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 13:38:23 -0500 (EST) Subject: Debian Updates In-Reply-To: <20031126053203.38f0447f.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FBFB82A.9000404@enoreo.on.ca><20031122163208.0d02c014.joehill@sympatico.ca><200311230011.27158.fraser@wehave.net><20031123061550.79f1de57.joehill@sympatico.ca><1372.216.138.194.32.1069809209.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> <20031126053203.38f0447f.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <1990.216.138.194.32.1069871903.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> > I don't see that. While cron-apt is certainly a more appropriate sol'n, > as Fraser suggested, I don't see how crontab will open up more > possibilities. You set a time/date, and a command to run. Just in > Webmin you don't have to wrap your noggin around what all those stars > mean, where to put them, etc. I'd rather spend my time learning BIND > or Virtual Hosts. Now *that* is where you should get your hands dirty ;-) Until webmin doesn't work, then you're screwed. Every one of those little stars means something, and having one missing could lead to alot of confusion. But let's not limit the discussion to cron, guis can be used to 'kind of' configure a lot of other programs, including bind9 and apache, no? So why do you need to learn anything about virtual hosts or really much of anything else if you have a gui that can do it for you? I prefer be able to dial into the server while on vacation in Hawaii and reconfigure as needed. IMHO anything else is a cheat if you have the capabilities but refuse to learn how to use them. -- Keith -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From kmastin-PzQIwG9Jn9VAFePFGvp55w at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 26 18:40:43 2003 From: kmastin-PzQIwG9Jn9VAFePFGvp55w at public.gmane.org (Keith Mastin) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 13:40:43 -0500 (EST) Subject: OT: I'd like some free stuff! In-Reply-To: <3FC44429.4010804-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <3FC44429.4010804@rogers.com> Message-ID: <2002.216.138.194.32.1069872043.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> > Hey all, > > I need to add another SCSI drive to my system but I have no space in the > case. Anyone have any powered external drive cases? Hoping for a > reasonable price... I've collected some stuff over the years and I'd be > willing to barter too. I have an old high tower AT case here that is going in the junk heap soon if it will help. -- Keith Mastin BeechTree Information Technology Services Inc. Toronto, Canada (416)429 9304 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lloyd-fEEwcc3XMu8jODpR/OX0VQ at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 26 18:55:31 2003 From: lloyd-fEEwcc3XMu8jODpR/OX0VQ at public.gmane.org (Lloyd D Budd) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 13:55:31 -0500 Subject: scanners In-Reply-To: <9djirvc778la0v498o4r47kqt85hsqhumf-e09XROE/p8c@public.gmane.org> References: <3FB7EC6E.9060602@sympatico.ca> <3FB7EFC5.90806@rogers.com> <3FB7F7DC.1080906@sympatico.ca> <3FB7F993.3070600@rogers.com> <20031117161528.GL25986@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <9djirvc778la0v498o4r47kqt85hsqhumf@4ax.com> Message-ID: <1069872931.9710.1730.camel@localhost> I am also shopping for a scanner. Thank you everyone for all the great info in the recent threads! Vistek and Henry's both seem to offer free (basic) shipping, and depending on the item they flip-flop on the price. I purchased a Epson 2400 today from CompuSmart.com . I have always had good experiences in their stores, and @ least one store is near me in case I choose to return it. Also, they always seem up to date on their rebates -- in this case, they have an Epson rebate that does not even seem to be found on the Epson site :-p Doug, if you bought the 3200 this month there is a ~150$ CAN rebate On Mon, 2003-11-17 at 17:48, dougish-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org wrote: > An Alternative to Vistek is Henry's Cameras. A touch cheaper and they > have branches in several areas of the GTA. > > I bought the Epson 3200 from Henry's. It's a full page (letter or A4) > flat bed scanner with the transparency adapter built into the lid > (capable of upto 4in. x 9in.), but it is not cheap (~$600). -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From zhunt-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 26 20:29:20 2003 From: zhunt-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (Zoltan) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 14:29:20 -0600 Subject: Lindows Moving into Canada References: Message-ID: <002d01c3b45b$f8e35ee0$d609e540@D2XGQ811> That's true, the headline could be mis-read. Maybe "another branch-plant opens in land of missing-cod?" I find it's interesting that they've opened an office in NovaScotia (guess they're doing something right), but then again, maybe I'm just Toronto-centric. Z ----- Original Message ----- From: "Justin Zygmont" To: "Zoltan" Cc: Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2003 3:54 PM Subject: Re: [TLUG]: Lindows Moving into Canada > At first glance, the title makes it sound like lindows moved its company > into canada or something spectacular. And all they're doing is bothering > to sell lindows on this side of the border now:) That probably wouldn't > even make news if was US. > > > On Tue, 25 Nov 2003, Zoltan wrote: > > > Sure was, the Globe' Canadian, eh. Someones been watching too much Global > > TV? :) > > > > Z > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Justin Zygmont" > > To: > > Sent: Saturday, November 22, 2003 10:43 AM > > Subject: Re: [TLUG]: Lindows Moving into Canada > > > > > > > it must have been a canadian site that wrote that story, they're trying to > > > make it sound like canada actually does something, just because lindows is > > > being sold now. > > > > > > > > > On Sat, 22 Nov 2003, Fraser Campbell wrote: > > > > > > > On November 21, 2003 10:15 pm, Glen Strom wrote: > > > > > Globe and Mail story > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.globetechnology.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20031120.gtlind1120/BNStory/Technology/ > > > > > > > > Not just Canada but if you read the Lindows release they're apparently > > moving > > > > into the "greater Canada area" ;-) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > > > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > > > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > > > > > > > > > -- > > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > > > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lists-Gb8Tj4xcA4YgsBAKwltoeQ at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 26 21:00:26 2003 From: lists-Gb8Tj4xcA4YgsBAKwltoeQ at public.gmane.org (Byron Q. Desnoyers Winmill) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 16:00:26 -0500 (EST) Subject: Debian Updates In-Reply-To: <1990.216.138.194.32.1069871903.squirrel-16UnNR4aCrhlws70yGkXPA@public.gmane.org> References: <3FBFB82A.9000404@enoreo.on.ca><20031122163208.0d02c014.joehill@sympatico.ca><200311230011.27158.fraser@wehave.net><20031123061550.79f1de57.joehill@sympatico.ca><1372.216.138.194.32.1069809209.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> <20031126053203.38f0447f.joehill@sympatico.ca> <1990.216.138.194.32.1069871903.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, 26 Nov 2003, Keith Mastin wrote: > So why do you need to learn anything about virtual hosts or really > much of anything else if you have a gui that can do it for you? There is nothing wrong with using a good GUI to configure your system. OTOH, many people use a GUI as an excuse not to learn something. In that respect, I can agree with you. > IMHO anything else is a cheat if you have the capabilities but refuse > to learn how to use them. In your opinion, perhaps. Some people may beg to differ, because a GUI is their security blanket. It wouldn't matter if the character based interface is better, because it intimidates them. If you don't believe me, just look at any library catalogue: much of the work done in the 1980's and early 1990's had usability studies backing them. Then the internet came into vogue, and everybody was slapping on clumsy web based interfaces. If these people are intimidated by text with line drawing characters, can you imagine how they would respond to pure text? Now replace the immediate response of a simple command driven environment with a text editor. Intimidation grows into sheer terror ... Now some of those people are dopes. Others are quite intelligent, but simply don't know how to react to something which they consider as regressive (just consider how much time the industry has spent trying to convince us that the GUI is easier to use, and better). Could the intelligent ones handle a GUI configuration tool and understand what is going on? You bet they can. Are they going to suffer because of it? They won't if the GUI is well designed and they take the time to understand what is going on. Byron. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From kmastin-PzQIwG9Jn9VAFePFGvp55w at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 26 19:59:57 2003 From: kmastin-PzQIwG9Jn9VAFePFGvp55w at public.gmane.org (Keith Mastin) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 14:59:57 -0500 (EST) Subject: Debian Updates In-Reply-To: References: <3FBFB82A.9000404@enoreo.on.ca><20031122163208.0d02c014.joehill@sympatico.ca><200311230011.27158.fraser@wehave.net><20031123061550.79f1de57.joehill@sympatico.ca><1372.216.138.194.32.1069809209.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> <20031126053203.38f0447f.joehill@sympatico.ca><1990.216.138.194.32.1069871903.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> Message-ID: <2353.216.138.194.32.1069876797.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> > On Wed, 26 Nov 2003, Keith Mastin wrote: >> So why do you need to learn anything about virtual hosts or really >> much of anything else if you have a gui that can do it for you? > > There is nothing wrong with using a good GUI to configure your system. > OTOH, many people use a GUI as an excuse not to learn something. In > that respect, I can agree with you. There is nothing wrong to configure an app with a gui if you know 1) that app, 2) the security implications, 3) what the gui does not configure, and 4) that you can also use the command line to pick up what the gui leaves out. >> IMHO anything else is a cheat if you have the capabilities but refuse >> to learn how to use them. > > In your opinion, perhaps. Some people may beg to differ, because a GUI > is their security blanket. It wouldn't matter if the character based > interface is better, because it intimidates them. If you don't believe > me, just look at any library catalogue: much of the work done in the > 1980's and early 1990's had usability studies backing them. Then the > internet came into vogue, and everybody was slapping on clumsy web based > interfaces. We are not talking about user interfaces here, we are talking about server configurations. The 2 are distinct as apples and oranges. > If these people are intimidated by text with line drawing characters, > can you imagine how they would respond to pure text? Now replace the > immediate response of a simple command driven environment with a text > editor. Intimidation grows into sheer terror ... > > Now some of those people are dopes. Others are quite intelligent, but > simply don't know how to react to something which they consider as > regressive (just consider how much time the industry has spent trying to > convince us that the GUI is easier to use, and better). Could the > intelligent ones handle a GUI configuration tool and understand what is > going on? You bet they can. Are they going to suffer because of it? > They won't if the GUI is well designed and they take the time to > understand what is going on. I will admit that maybe you have a point if you can show me a gui that can configure _every_ aspect of a program to the same degree of certainty that the command line can. Samba has about a thousand or so options. How many of these are configurable in SWAT or WebMin? -- Keith -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 26 20:16:34 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 15:16:34 -0500 Subject: Debian Updates In-Reply-To: <1990.216.138.194.32.1069871903.squirrel-16UnNR4aCrhlws70yGkXPA@public.gmane.org> References: <3FBFB82A.9000404@enoreo.on.ca> <20031122163208.0d02c014.joehill@sympatico.ca> <200311230011.27158.fraser@wehave.net> <20031123061550.79f1de57.joehill@sympatico.ca> <1372.216.138.194.32.1069809209.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> <20031126053203.38f0447f.joehill@sympatico.ca> <1990.216.138.194.32.1069871903.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> Message-ID: <20031126151634.038e30cf.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Wed, 26 Nov 2003 13:38:23 -0500 (EST) "Keith Mastin" wrote: > Until webmin doesn't work, then you're screwed. Every one of those little > stars means something, and having one missing could lead to alot of > confusion. > > But let's not limit the discussion to cron, guis can be used to 'kind of' > configure a lot of other programs, including bind9 and apache, no? So why > do you need to learn anything about virtual hosts or really much of > anything else if you have a gui that can do it for you? > > I prefer be able to dial into the server while on vacation in Hawaii and > reconfigure as needed. IMHO anything else is a cheat if you have the > capabilities but refuse to learn how to use them. I think that's a little extreme, when you take into account different levels of users, and I think you need to. For each person, there is a level of comfort, and if we want to expand the Linux desktop user base, we're going to have to accept that not everybody sees the CLI as the elegant, powerful, and exact tool that it is. What do you say to the Windows refugee who says "where's my Scheduled Tasks?!", tell them to read man crontab? They'll drop it like a hot potato and run screaming back. Which is *why* some kind-hearted souls came up with sol'ns like cron-apt, Webmin, or in Mandrake the Cron tool in Control Center. Not everybody wants to be, or should need to be, a guru who can decipher man pages, just because they want to use Linux. This is exactly why we have a variety of solutions, distros, etc. -- JoeHill ++ ICQ # 280779813 Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "Every now and then when your life gets complicated and the weasels start closing in, the only real cure is to load up on heinous chemicals and then drive like a bastard from Hollywood to Las Vegas."-- Hunter S. Thompson -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 26 20:21:23 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 15:21:23 -0500 Subject: Debian Updates In-Reply-To: <2353.216.138.194.32.1069876797.squirrel-16UnNR4aCrhlws70yGkXPA@public.gmane.org> References: <3FBFB82A.9000404@enoreo.on.ca> <20031122163208.0d02c014.joehill@sympatico.ca> <200311230011.27158.fraser@wehave.net> <20031123061550.79f1de57.joehill@sympatico.ca> <1372.216.138.194.32.1069809209.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> <20031126053203.38f0447f.joehill@sympatico.ca> <1990.216.138.194.32.1069871903.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> <2353.216.138.194.32.1069876797.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> Message-ID: <20031126152123.7195c834.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Wed, 26 Nov 2003 14:59:57 -0500 (EST) "Keith Mastin" wrote: > We are not talking about user interfaces here, we are talking about server > configurations. The 2 are distinct as apples and oranges. Actually, we were talking about *cron*... ;-) -- JoeHill ++ ICQ # 280779813 Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." -- Hunter S. Thompson -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From kmastin-PzQIwG9Jn9VAFePFGvp55w at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 26 20:20:58 2003 From: kmastin-PzQIwG9Jn9VAFePFGvp55w at public.gmane.org (Keith Mastin) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 15:20:58 -0500 (EST) Subject: samba Message-ID: <2455.216.138.194.32.1069878058.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> I have a small home network w/ 3 computers hooked up at the moment. 2 redhat-7.3 machines and the other is Windoh$ XP-Pro. I decided to give SWAT a go to see what changes have been made since I last tried it. I won't be doing that again anytime soon. Samba won't work. I uninstalled all 4 samba -related apps and reinstalled only samba, samba-client and samba-common (no swat). When I stop or restart samba, here is the result: [root-82/87xFww9o at public.gmane.org root]# service smb restart Shutting down SMB services: [ OK ] Shutting down NMB services: /etc/init.d/smb: kill: (3516) - No such process [ OK ] Starting SMB services: [ OK ] Starting NMB services: [ OK ] The netbios thingy is dying on the vine, and reinstalling it won't fix the problem so it has to be related to something else. If I don't get this back up soon, my kid is going to kill me. Any suggestions (I mean other than leaving the gun fully loaded for him to shoot me with)? -- Keith -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From anton-F0u+EriZ6ihBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 26 21:11:13 2003 From: anton-F0u+EriZ6ihBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Anton Markov) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 16:11:13 -0500 Subject: samba In-Reply-To: <2455.216.138.194.32.1069878058.squirrel-16UnNR4aCrhlws70yGkXPA@public.gmane.org> References: <2455.216.138.194.32.1069878058.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> Message-ID: <3FC516F1.3000301@truxtar.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Hi Keith, ~From what I gather, you are trying to allow the Windows computer access to Linux samba shares, right? After starting up samba, can you do: smbclient -L localhost smbclient -L and see if you can connect and see the shares listed. Then try: smbclient //localhost/ to try connecting to the actual share. Tell us what you find. Anton Keith Mastin wrote: | I have a small home network w/ 3 computers hooked up at the moment. 2 | redhat-7.3 machines and the other is Windoh$ XP-Pro. I decided to give | SWAT a go to see what changes have been made since I last tried it. I | won't be doing that again anytime soon. Samba won't work. I uninstalled | all 4 samba -related apps and reinstalled only samba, samba-client and | samba-common (no swat). | | When I stop or restart samba, here is the result: | [root-82/87xFww9o at public.gmane.org root]# service smb restart | Shutting down SMB services: [ OK ] | Shutting down NMB services: /etc/init.d/smb: kill: (3516) - No such process | [ OK ] | Starting SMB services: [ OK ] | Starting NMB services: [ OK ] | | The netbios thingy is dying on the vine, and reinstalling it won't fix the | problem so it has to be related to something else. | | If I don't get this back up soon, my kid is going to kill me. Any | suggestions (I mean other than leaving the gun fully loaded for him to | shoot me with)? | - -- Anton Markov <("anton" + "@" + "truxtar" + "." + "com")> GnuPGP Key fingerprint = 5546 A6E2 1FFB 9BB8 15C3 CE34 46B7 8D93 3AD1 44B4 ~ "The difference between insanity and genius is measured only by success." ~ - Some bad guy from 007 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQE/xRbwRreNkzrRRLQRAtJ9AJ4l2+8Z9MA2t3rZh49ykFtJ9dvqXgCeJY4S Uqb8Ssj/Y9UT8G1LggXVA+4= =GtFc -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From kmastin-PzQIwG9Jn9VAFePFGvp55w at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 26 21:03:29 2003 From: kmastin-PzQIwG9Jn9VAFePFGvp55w at public.gmane.org (Keith Mastin) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 16:03:29 -0500 (EST) Subject: Debian Updates In-Reply-To: <20031126151634.038e30cf.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FBFB82A.9000404@enoreo.on.ca><20031122163208.0d02c014.joehill@sympatico.ca><200311230011.27158.fraser@wehave.net><20031123061550.79f1de57.joehill@sympatico.ca><1372.216.138.194.32.1069809209.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca><20031126053203.38f0447f.joehill@sympatico.ca><1990.216.138.194.32.1069871903.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> <20031126151634.038e30cf.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <2523.216.138.194.32.1069880609.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> >> I prefer be able to dial into the server while on vacation in Hawaii and >> reconfigure as needed. IMHO anything else is a cheat if you have the >> capabilities but refuse to learn how to use them. > > I think that's a little extreme, when you take into account different > levels of users, and I think you need to. For each person, there is a > level of comfort, and if we want to expand the Linux desktop user base, What if we dont care about the desktop user base, just about making things work at the server level so the users don't need to learn to use anything but windoh$? > we're going to have to accept that not everybody sees the CLI as the > elegant, powerful, and exact tool that it is. What do you say to the > Windows refugee who says "where's my Scheduled Tasks?!", tell them to > read man crontab? They'll drop it like a hot potato and run screaming > back. Which is *why* some kind-hearted souls came up with sol'ns like > cron-apt, Webmin, or in Mandrake the Cron tool in Control Center. I don't recall stating that the CLI is best for everyone. IIRC, this was the result of someone suggesting that a noob use a root-level gui to make a simple configuration change. > Not everybody wants to be, or should need to be, a guru who can decipher > man pages, just because they want to use Linux. This is exactly why we > have a variety of solutions, distros, etc. But not everyone should be playing with linux either. Windoh$s is simply the best for a lot of people... or don't you want to take your own argument that far? -- Keith -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 26 21:38:03 2003 From: fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Fraser Campbell) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 16:38:03 -0500 Subject: Debian Updates In-Reply-To: <20031126151634.038e30cf.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FBFB82A.9000404@enoreo.on.ca> <1990.216.138.194.32.1069871903.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> <20031126151634.038e30cf.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <200311261638.03697.fraser@wehave.net> On Wednesday 26 November 2003 15:16, JoeHill wrote: > Scheduled Tasks?!", tell them to read man crontab? They'll drop it like a > hot potato and run screaming back. Which is *why* some kind-hearted souls > came up with sol'ns like cron-apt, Webmin, or in Mandrake the Cron tool in > Control Center. You're correct. A lot of people seem to prefer clicking around in GUIs until they get it right rather than understanding it and getting it right in the first place ;-) For cron GUIs there's kcron which provides a reasonable enough interface, I'm sure gnome must have an equivalent as well. -- Fraser Campbell http://www.wehave.net/ Halton Hills, Ontario, Canada Debian GNU/Linux -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 26 21:37:32 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 16:37:32 -0500 Subject: Debian Updates In-Reply-To: <2523.216.138.194.32.1069880609.squirrel-16UnNR4aCrhlws70yGkXPA@public.gmane.org> References: <3FBFB82A.9000404@enoreo.on.ca> <20031122163208.0d02c014.joehill@sympatico.ca> <200311230011.27158.fraser@wehave.net> <20031123061550.79f1de57.joehill@sympatico.ca> <1372.216.138.194.32.1069809209.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> <20031126053203.38f0447f.joehill@sympatico.ca> <1990.216.138.194.32.1069871903.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> <20031126151634.038e30cf.joehill@sympatico.ca> <2523.216.138.194.32.1069880609.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> Message-ID: <20031126163732.0585c825.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Wed, 26 Nov 2003 16:03:29 -0500 (EST) "Keith Mastin" wrote: > What if we dont care about the desktop user base, just about making things > work at the server level so the users don't need to learn to use anything > but windoh$? That's where we differ. I *do* care. It means more software, more support, more everything, for me, as a Linux user. > > we're going to have to accept that not everybody sees the CLI as the > > elegant, powerful, and exact tool that it is. What do you say to the > > Windows refugee who says "where's my Scheduled Tasks?!", tell them to > > read man crontab? They'll drop it like a hot potato and run screaming > > back. Which is *why* some kind-hearted souls came up with sol'ns like > > cron-apt, Webmin, or in Mandrake the Cron tool in Control Center. > > I don't recall stating that the CLI is best for everyone. IIRC, this was > the result of someone suggesting that a noob use a root-level gui to make > a simple configuration change. uh, running apt is a root process anyway...ie., cron would need to be configured as root to run the command. > > Not everybody wants to be, or should need to be, a guru who can decipher > > man pages, just because they want to use Linux. This is exactly why we > > have a variety of solutions, distros, etc. > > But not everyone should be playing with linux either. Windoh$s is simply > the best for a lot of people... or don't you want to take your own > argument that far? No, and I never have. Windows is best for *nobody*. -- JoeHill ++ ICQ # 280779813 Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "In this possibly terminal phase of human existence, democracy and freedom are more than just ideals to be valued - they may be essential to survival...."-- Noam Chomsky -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From blanco-S8qYAnHmZTt34ZA5RureAJ4VBq8PJc8F at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 26 22:54:42 2003 From: blanco-S8qYAnHmZTt34ZA5RureAJ4VBq8PJc8F at public.gmane.org (Max Blanco) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 17:54:42 -0500 (EST) Subject: where can i get a power supply for deskjet 660C? Message-ID: Hi All, I have an old trash heap Deskjet 660c (yup, I take my recycling seriously). It lacks a power supply. The specs are: 30v, 0.4A, outer positive. I asked the guy at Action Surplus (Bloor+Bathurst) awhile ago but he said that those power supplies do not exist any longer, probably because of planned obsolence. (What else is new?) Any ideas? thanks, max. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From blanco-S8qYAnHmZTt34ZA5RureAJ4VBq8PJc8F at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 26 22:49:30 2003 From: blanco-S8qYAnHmZTt34ZA5RureAJ4VBq8PJc8F at public.gmane.org (Max Blanco) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 17:49:30 -0500 (EST) Subject: samba In-Reply-To: <2455.216.138.194.32.1069878058.squirrel-16UnNR4aCrhlws70yGkXPA@public.gmane.org> References: <2455.216.138.194.32.1069878058.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, 26 Nov 2003, Keith Mastin wrote: > When I stop or restart samba, here is the result: > [root-82/87xFww9o at public.gmane.org root]# service smb restart > Shutting down SMB services: [ OK ] > Shutting down NMB services: /etc/init.d/smb: kill: (3516) - No such process > [ OK ] > Starting SMB services: [ OK ] > Starting NMB services: [ OK ] > I like to get into the guts: lots of "echo" statements in your /etc/init.d/smb file to diagnose where it's pooching... but that's my limit. I barely know what samba *is*. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 26 23:15:04 2003 From: clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (CLIFFORD ILKAY) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 18:15:04 -0500 Subject: Debian Updates In-Reply-To: <2353.216.138.194.32.1069876797.squirrel-16UnNR4aCrhlws70yGkXPA@public.gmane.org> References: <3FBFB82A.9000404@enoreo.on.ca> <20031122163208.0d02c014.joehill@sympatico.ca> <200311230011.27158.fraser@wehave.net> <20031123061550.79f1de57.joehill@sympatico.ca> <1372.216.138.194.32.1069809209.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> <20031126053203.38f0447f.joehill@sympatico.ca> <1990.216.138.194.32.1069871903.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> <2353.216.138.194.32.1069876797.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20031126180514.0aeb5de8@localhost> At 14:59 26/11/2003 -0500, Keith Mastin wrote: [snip] >I will admit that maybe you have a point if you can show me a gui that can >configure _every_ aspect of a program to the same degree of certainty that >the command line can. Samba has about a thousand or so options. How many >of these are configurable in SWAT or WebMin? Hi Keith, I met John Terpstra, one of the founders of the Samba Project, a few years ago at a conference and was chatting with him about how much fun Samba configuration can be. He said that SWAT is a definitive configuration tool for Samba and that is was designed to create optimized smb.conf files. He said most people who tweak smb.conf manually, end up creating something that is less than optimal. He gave an example of a Samba server with a huge number of workstations authenticating against Samba and how by using SWAT, they managed to overcome the performance issues simply because there were fewer lines in smb.conf afterwards. If John Terpstra says it is so, I would be inclined to believe him. Regards, Clifford Ilkay Dinamis Corporation 3266 Yonge Street, Suite 1419 Toronto, Ontario Canada M4N 3P6 Tel: 416-410-3326 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 26 22:10:33 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 17:10:33 -0500 Subject: Debian Updates In-Reply-To: <200311261638.03697.fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FBFB82A.9000404@enoreo.on.ca> <1990.216.138.194.32.1069871903.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> <20031126151634.038e30cf.joehill@sympatico.ca> <200311261638.03697.fraser@wehave.net> Message-ID: <20031126171033.6b63f292.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Wed, 26 Nov 2003 16:38:03 -0500 Fraser Campbell wrote: > You're correct. A lot of people seem to prefer clicking around in GUIs until > they get it right rather than understanding it and getting it right in the > first place ;-) For cron GUIs there's kcron which provides a reasonable > enough interface, I'm sure gnome must have an equivalent as well. What's this seething prejudice against GUI's? Yes, as I've stated, the CLI is a much more precise and, in a lot of cases, better interface for configuration. It's best, in certain cases, to see what's goin' on in the background, esp as Kieth pointed out with server functions such as DNS. However, GUI's *can* be a Good Thing, as the Mac has proved beyond doubt. I believe that Linux can and will eventually develop a GUI that is as powerful and extensible as the Mac interface, and there is a future for Linux on the home desktop. Why would that be such a terrible thing? And if it makes it easier for the home desktop user to configure "scheduled tasks" through a GUI, why not? Perhaps Webmin isn't always the best sol'n, but nor is crontab, given a certain set of circumstances (user experience, function, purpose, etc.). And hey, as *someone* pointed out, intelligent self interest is a positive thang, and it is in my best interest to have more people using Linux on the home desktop, so I never have to fork over the bucks for a Mac to avoid using that POS Windows OS that hangs and crashes and infects everything it touches. So I's gonna keep pushin' the 'ease of use' GUI approach, where appropriate, so I can have my cake and eat it all up too! Of course, you can feel free to pop me one when it's *inappropriate*, as you quite rightly did with suggesting cron-apt instead of Webmin. I learned, he learned, it's a community/mailing list dynamic, word? -- JoeHill ++ ICQ # 280779813 Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "Behind every great fortune is a crime." -- Balzac -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lloyd-fEEwcc3XMu8jODpR/OX0VQ at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 27 00:18:07 2003 From: lloyd-fEEwcc3XMu8jODpR/OX0VQ at public.gmane.org (Lloyd D Budd) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 19:18:07 -0500 Subject: mandrake 1st (c)lick In-Reply-To: <1069775064.2142.8.camel-33sJirT1wKzlb5+wx7kmt/BjuwtQqDz/bwi28uEu5RN+FfftCXEu2Q@public.gmane.org> References: <1069772655.18546.1413.camel@localhost> <1069775064.2142.8.camel@gamma373-365.portable.resnet.yorku.ca> Message-ID: <1069892255.2485.12.camel@localhost> On Tue, 2003-11-25 at 10:44, Austin wrote: > > Is there no automatic "mirrorselect"? > > Yes, there is. It's called urpmi.setup. Paradoxically, you need the > source setup properly to install it so that you can setup the source > properly. Fun, isn't it. Just download the RPM and install it instead. (http://plf.zarb.org/~nanardon/index.php) seems to suck! Mirror select tools normally have an option to automatically find mirrors that are "good" for your location. I have tried at least a half dozen of the contribs in the "database". Can anyone send me their list of media? So if I become a club member do I get access to "guaranteed" mirrors? Thank you, Lloyd -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 27 00:20:29 2003 From: fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Fraser Campbell) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 19:20:29 -0500 Subject: samba In-Reply-To: <2455.216.138.194.32.1069878058.squirrel-16UnNR4aCrhlws70yGkXPA@public.gmane.org> References: <2455.216.138.194.32.1069878058.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> Message-ID: <200311261920.29867.fraser@wehave.net> On November 26, 2003 03:20 pm, Keith Mastin wrote: > I have a small home network w/ 3 computers hooked up at the moment. 2 > redhat-7.3 machines and the other is Windoh$ XP-Pro. I decided to give > SWAT a go to see what changes have been made since I last tried it. I > won't be doing that again anytime soon. Samba won't work. I uninstalled > all 4 samba -related apps and reinstalled only samba, samba-client and > samba-common (no swat). I've not used swat much but from what I've seen it's one of the better GUIs around. Perhaps you swat wasn't compiled with the correct/same file locations as your samba server ... not sure if that could even be an issue. > If I don't get this back up soon, my kid is going to kill me. Any > suggestions (I mean other than leaving the gun fully loaded for him to > shoot me with)? Restore from backup/rcs/whatever, you do have backups right ;-) -- Fraser Campbell http://www.wehave.net/ Georgetown, Ontario, Canada Debian GNU/Linux -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 27 00:36:27 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 19:36:27 -0500 Subject: mandrake 1st (c)lick In-Reply-To: <1069892255.2485.12.camel-bi+AKbBUZKZeoWH0uzbU5w@public.gmane.org> References: <1069772655.18546.1413.camel@localhost> <1069775064.2142.8.camel@gamma373-365.portable.resnet.yorku.ca> <1069892255.2485.12.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <20031126193627.35848c43.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Wed, 26 Nov 2003 19:18:07 -0500 Lloyd D Budd wrote: > seems to suck! Mirror select tools normally have an option to > automatically find mirrors that are "good" for your location. I have > tried at least a half dozen of the contribs in the "database". Can > anyone send me their list of media? I seem to have pretty good download rates from ftp://mirrors.usc.edu for main, updates, and contrib. I always use urpmi --wget, though, for some reason curl, the default, seems to choke now and again. -- JoeHill ++ ICQ # 280779813 Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "Behind every great fortune is a crime." -- Balzac -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 27 00:42:49 2003 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 19:42:49 -0500 Subject: where can i get a power supply for deskjet 660C? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20031127004249.GA1413@node1.opengeometry.net> On Wed, Nov 26, 2003 at 05:54:42PM -0500, Max Blanco wrote: > > Hi All, > > I have an old trash heap Deskjet 660c (yup, I take my recycling > seriously). It lacks a power supply. > The specs are: 30v, 0.4A, outer positive. > > I asked the guy at Action Surplus (Bloor+Bathurst) awhile ago but he said > that those power supplies do not exist any longer, probably because of > planned obsolence. (What else is new?) > > Any ideas? > thanks, > max. Buy a dead deskjet. -- William Park, Open Geometry Consulting, Linux solution for data management and processing. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lists-Gb8Tj4xcA4YgsBAKwltoeQ at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 27 07:09:22 2003 From: lists-Gb8Tj4xcA4YgsBAKwltoeQ at public.gmane.org (Byron Q. Desnoyers Winmill) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2003 02:09:22 -0500 (EST) Subject: Debian Updates In-Reply-To: <20031126171033.6b63f292.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FBFB82A.9000404@enoreo.on.ca> <1990.216.138.194.32.1069871903.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> <20031126151634.038e30cf.joehill@sympatico.ca> <200311261638.03697.fraser@wehave.net> <20031126171033.6b63f292.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, 26 Nov 2003, JoeHill wrote: > What's this seething prejudice against GUI's? I would imagine that a lot of us are attracted to Linux by the CLI. > I believe that Linux can and will eventually develop a GUI that is as > powerful and extensible as the Mac interface Actually, the Macintosh GUI is in steady decline. It started around the System 7.5 era, and is continuing with Mac OS X. > Why would that be such a terrible thing? Because the shell would loose its dominance? > I never have to fork over the bucks for a Mac to avoid using that POS > Windows OS If you want a Macintosh, you fork over the bucks. The reason for this is simple: Apple controls the development, and this ensures that you get a consistent user interface. Consistency, not technology, is what makes it easier to use. This consistency is also the product of published "human interface" guidelines. In otherwords, Linux developers would have to document their software for other developers -- not just the end user. Consistency also depends upon agreement, which is bound to be difficult to find in a community which seeks alternatives. Byron. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From ttanski-iRg7kjdsKiH3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 27 00:46:49 2003 From: ttanski-iRg7kjdsKiH3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Terry Tanski) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 19:46:49 -0500 (EST) Subject: samba In-Reply-To: <2455.216.138.194.32.1069878058.squirrel-16UnNR4aCrhlws70yGkXPA@public.gmane.org> References: <2455.216.138.194.32.1069878058.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, 26 Nov 2003, Keith Mastin wrote: > I have a small home network w/ 3 computers hooked up at the moment. 2 > redhat-7.3 machines and the other is Windoh$ XP-Pro. I decided to give > SWAT a go to see what changes have been made since I last tried it. I > won't be doing that again anytime soon. Samba won't work. I uninstalled > all 4 samba -related apps and reinstalled only samba, samba-client and > samba-common (no swat). > > When I stop or restart samba, here is the result: > [root-82/87xFww9o at public.gmane.org root]# service smb restart > Shutting down SMB services: [ OK ] > Shutting down NMB services: /etc/init.d/smb: kill: (3516) - No such process > [ OK ] > Starting SMB services: [ OK ] > Starting NMB services: [ OK ] > > The netbios thingy is dying on the vine, and reinstalling it won't fix the > problem so it has to be related to something else. OK, first stop Samba. The 'no such process' may not be a fatal thing ... it could just mean that nmbd failed in becoming part of a workgroup and exited. Second, check the config file. It could be that the smb.conf file SWAT created is invalid so you should run 'testparm /etc/samba/smb.conf'. If it complains, fix the problems manually using 'man smb.conf' as your friend. If it is OK, then you should check the logfiles. RH7.3 places all Samba logfiles in /var/log/samba. Logs with nmb in the name will tell you stuff about nmbd, the NB name server. Logs with smb in the name will tell you stuff about smbd, the samba server including attempted connects and stuff. Start there and if you can't get anywhere, post some of the logs and global section of smb.conf and we will see if we can help. SWAT is a great tool and usually creates a workable smb.conf but every piece of software can have hidden bugs :-) Terry -- Terry Tanski, B.Sc. Phone: (416) 863-2126 Canada NewsWire Ltd. Fax: (416) 863-4825 20 Bay Street, Suite 1500 Email: ttanski-BEj8/MhvOJIsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Toronto, ON M5J 2N8 Web: http://www.newswire.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lists-Gb8Tj4xcA4YgsBAKwltoeQ at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 27 06:46:00 2003 From: lists-Gb8Tj4xcA4YgsBAKwltoeQ at public.gmane.org (Byron Q. Desnoyers Winmill) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2003 01:46:00 -0500 (EST) Subject: Debian Updates In-Reply-To: <2353.216.138.194.32.1069876797.squirrel-16UnNR4aCrhlws70yGkXPA@public.gmane.org> References: <3FBFB82A.9000404@enoreo.on.ca><20031122163208.0d02c014.joehill@sympatico.ca><200311230011.27158.fraser@wehave.net><20031123061550.79f1de57.joehill@sympatico.ca><1372.216.138.194.32.1069809209.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> <20031126053203.38f0447f.joehill@sympatico.ca><1990.216.138.194.32.1069871903.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> <2353.216.138.194.32.1069876797.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, 26 Nov 2003, Keith Mastin wrote: > We are not talking about user interfaces here, we are talking about > server configurations. The 2 are distinct as apples and oranges. The structure of the configuration file is not an interface? Your favourite text editor is not an interface? Your favourite shell is not an interface? Any form of interaction with the computer involves an interface. It's just that some interfaces work at a lower level than others. > I will admit that maybe you have a point if you can show me a gui that can > configure _every_ aspect of a program to the same degree of certainty that > the command line can. I could imagine such an interface for cron, and have seen such an interface for wwwoffle (though it is less than friendly at some points). Seeming as you brought up the command line, which I usually treat as distinct from configuration files, I can also point to Commando under MPW. Even if the GUI provided a simple forms based interface, it would be better than digging out a text editor. This is because the program can create a structured configuration process, and this structured process would allow it to detect errors in a more meaningful manner. Like it or not, most of us don't have perfect fingers or perfect memories. Byron. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jerome-mhXWc29+iYPyG1zEObXtfA at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 27 07:08:36 2003 From: jerome-mhXWc29+iYPyG1zEObXtfA at public.gmane.org (JM) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2003 15:08:36 +0800 Subject: Mail Setup help! In-Reply-To: <20031125175840.GA319-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <200311251529.00750.jerome@gmanmi.tv> <20031125175840.GA319@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <200311271508.36683.jerome@gmanmi.tv> On Tue, Nov 25, 2003 at 03:29:00PM +0800, JM wrote: >> hi, >> >> this is my setup: >> >> Internet ---- MAILSERVER (owned by sister company) >> | >> | ( LAN ) >> | >> Sendmail Box (FreeBSD) ( lies on our sister company's data center ) >> | >> | ( LAN ) >> | >> Qmail Box (Linux) ( lies on our data center ) >> >> currently all mails arrives at MAILSERVER. all mydomain.com is relayed to >> Sendmail box w/c is where all our mail boxes of mydomain.com users lies. >> >> now i want to relay all mails relayed to Sendmail Box to be relayed to >Qmail >> box. can someone point me to a howto on this... >> >> info: >> i can eliminate Sendmail Box.. but i cant because i dont want our sister >> company to know that we are storing our mails inside our place. because >> they'll be asking us to use our own internet pipe for mails.. hehehehe.. >Turn into secondary MX for and tell it not to >accept mails for . Hmm, > - edit zonefile > - edit /etc/mail/local-host-names or .mc source >Turn into primary MX for . >On Wednesday 26 November 2003 01:58, William Park wrote: hi, is it possible to just do a mail forwarding on from freebsd box to linux box? i cant edit the DNS since our sister company owns it to.. TIA jm -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From ckoitz-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 27 00:40:20 2003 From: ckoitz-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Carola Koitz) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2003 01:40:20 +0100 Subject: Toronto FreeNet massive trouble: where to go now? References: <1069740269.26123.214.camel@jupiter.acf.aquezada.com> Message-ID: <3FC547F4.8040000@istop.com> Julian C. Dunn wrote: >On Mon, 2003-11-24 at 15:37, verbum-qazKcTl6WRFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org wrote: > > > >>I got my ADSL modem working with Toronto FreeNet about 10 days ago, but have >>had erratic service. The problem appears both when I connect my Debian GNU/Linux PC to the >>modem and when when I instead connect my Win98 SE laptop to the modem. >> >>The trouble varies from day to day or hour to hour, sometimes involving dropped packets, >>sometimes involving ping response times on the order of 3000 milliseconds, sometimes >>involving a failure (as demonstrated by tcptraceroute) part of the way upstream, with >>a Toronto router evidently failing to talk to a New York router. Many hours are >>trouble-free, but just when i start feeling safe again, trouble returns. >> >>Toronto FreeNet is innocent of blame. The real culprit is WizNet, whose ADSL Toronto >>FreeNet is reselling to me. >> >> > >I'm also a poor tfnet.ca user. Here I thought I was supporting a >community ISP and the next thing I know I'm being resold a crappy >Velocet DSL line. Someone mentioned that they are using iStop. I'm >intrigued by the promise of an SLA if one pays $10/month. Since I depend >on the uptime of this line for my business, it would make business sense >to pay for it. Is anyone else with iStop, are they a good ISP, and does >the SLA really live up to its promise? > >- Julian > > > We recently changed from Sympatico to Istop. We are with Istop now for four weeks and I highly recommend them. The line was down once and when I called I got someone on the phone who knew what he was talking about. Carola -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lloyd-fEEwcc3XMu8jODpR/OX0VQ at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 27 01:27:00 2003 From: lloyd-fEEwcc3XMu8jODpR/OX0VQ at public.gmane.org (Lloyd D Budd) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 20:27:00 -0500 Subject: mdk: cooked individual software? Message-ID: <1069896420.9750.3033.camel@localhost> I want to keep my version of evolution the same across my different machines (different distros). "The current stable release of Ximian Evolution is v. 1.4.5.". This release is not appear to be in the stable version of Mandrake. How do I install this? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lloyd-fEEwcc3XMu8jODpR/OX0VQ at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 27 00:50:40 2003 From: lloyd-fEEwcc3XMu8jODpR/OX0VQ at public.gmane.org (Lloyd D Budd) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 19:50:40 -0500 Subject: mdk: cooker individual software? Message-ID: <1069894240.2479.25.camel@localhost> I want to keep my version of evolution the same across my different machines (different distros). "The current stable release of Ximian Evolution is v. 1.4.5.". This release is not appear to be in the stable version of Mandrake. How do I install this? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 27 11:48:50 2003 From: fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Fraser Campbell) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2003 06:48:50 -0500 Subject: Mail Setup help! In-Reply-To: <200311271508.36683.jerome-mhXWc29+iYPyG1zEObXtfA@public.gmane.org> References: <200311251529.00750.jerome@gmanmi.tv> <20031125175840.GA319@node1.opengeometry.net> <200311271508.36683.jerome@gmanmi.tv> Message-ID: <200311270648.51613.fraser@wehave.net> On November 27, 2003 02:08 am, JM wrote: > hi, is it possible to just do a mail forwarding on from freebsd box to > linux box? i cant edit the DNS since our sister company owns it to.. In sendmail you can use a mailertable entry rather than DNS to direct the mail. Once the email gets to your qmail box then I'm not sure what you'll have to do, you might have to create local dns so that it knows it's master MX for your domain, probably you'll just have to create a file somewhere telling it that it's accepting for your domain. -- Fraser Campbell http://www.wehave.net/ Georgetown, Ontario, Canada Debian GNU/Linux -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lloyd-fEEwcc3XMu8jODpR/OX0VQ at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 27 11:53:24 2003 From: lloyd-fEEwcc3XMu8jODpR/OX0VQ at public.gmane.org (Lloyd D Budd) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2003 06:53:24 -0500 Subject: Debian Updates References: <3FBFB82A.9000404@enoreo.on.ca> Message-ID: On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 14:25:30 -0500, Mark Vining may have wrote: > I just installed Debian on my computer and I am wondering what I need to > do to get Linux to download all updates automatically. > > Can anyone suggest how to do this. It is interesting to me how different the topics to Subject Debian Updates have become in this thread. People love to disguise a classic flame war under another Subject ;-) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From manjindersingh-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Nov 26 22:48:24 2003 From: manjindersingh-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Manjinder Singh) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 17:48:24 -0500 Subject: samba References: <2455.216.138.194.32.1069878058.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> Message-ID: <003401c3b46f$6776bbf0$86073141@manny> Hey Keith take a look at the following - may be of some help: http://www.redhat.com/archives/redhat-list/2003-April/msg02829.html ----- Original Message ----- From: "Keith Mastin" To: Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2003 3:20 PM Subject: [TLUG]: samba > > I have a small home network w/ 3 computers hooked up at the moment. 2 > redhat-7.3 machines and the other is Windoh$ XP-Pro. I decided to give > SWAT a go to see what changes have been made since I last tried it. I > won't be doing that again anytime soon. Samba won't work. I uninstalled > all 4 samba -related apps and reinstalled only samba, samba-client and > samba-common (no swat). > > When I stop or restart samba, here is the result: > [root-82/87xFww9o at public.gmane.org root]# service smb restart > Shutting down SMB services: [ OK ] > Shutting down NMB services: /etc/init.d/smb: kill: (3516) - No such process > [ OK ] > Starting SMB services: [ OK ] > Starting NMB services: [ OK ] > > The netbios thingy is dying on the vine, and reinstalling it won't fix the > problem so it has to be related to something else. > > If I don't get this back up soon, my kid is going to kill me. Any > suggestions (I mean other than leaving the gun fully loaded for him to > shoot me with)? > > -- > Keith > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From duane-0woWHXR+IX/+GvpUu0s8jQ at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 27 03:06:20 2003 From: duane-0woWHXR+IX/+GvpUu0s8jQ at public.gmane.org (Duane Bedeau) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 22:06:20 -0500 Subject: OT: I'd like some free stuff! In-Reply-To: <3FC44429.4010804-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <3FC44429.4010804@rogers.com> Message-ID: <1069902380.563.172.camel@skippy.duanebedeau.com> On Wed, 2003-11-26 at 01:11, Byron Sonne wrote: > Hey all, > > I need to add another SCSI drive to my system but I have no space in the > case. Anyone have any powered external drive cases? Hoping for a > reasonable price... I've collected some stuff over the years and I'd be > willing to barter too. > > It could be either for a single drive and no removable bezel, or a tower > config with removable bezels for CD/tape drives as well. I wouldn't mind > slapping my burner, DAT and extra drive into one case and getting a > couple spots on my powerbar back. > > Either Centronics (see bottom of pic in link) or Champ (top of pic, > sometimes called SCSI-2) connectors are fine, though Centronics would be > preferable. No need for terminators, I've got a few lying around. > (http://www.nikon-euro.com/nikoneuro_en/images/graphics/scsiconn.jpg). > > Regards, > Byron > I have a single drive centronics type connecter jobbie here if you'd like! Let me know -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 27 12:30:57 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2003 07:30:57 -0500 Subject: Debian Updates In-Reply-To: References: <3FBFB82A.9000404@enoreo.on.ca> Message-ID: <20031127073057.297476b7.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Thu, 27 Nov 2003 06:53:24 -0500 Lloyd D Budd wrote: > It is interesting to me how different the topics to Subject Debian Updates > have become in this thread. People love to disguise a classic flame war > under another Subject ;-) I hope no one thought I was flaming! Shite, I just like to banter back and forth, I guess it's a fine line...anyway, I don't feel like *I* was flamed, but then I'm used to some pretty rough treatment, being married and all. -- JoeHill ++ ICQ # 280779813 Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "Behind every great fortune is a crime." -- Balzac -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 27 12:59:21 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2003 07:59:21 -0500 Subject: mdk: cooker individual software? In-Reply-To: <1069894240.2479.25.camel-bi+AKbBUZKZeoWH0uzbU5w@public.gmane.org> References: <1069894240.2479.25.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <20031127075921.628846c7.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Wed, 26 Nov 2003 19:50:40 -0500 Lloyd D Budd wrote: > I want to keep my version of evolution the same across my different > machines (different distros). "The current stable release of Ximian > Evolution is v. 1.4.5.". This release is not appear to be in the stable > version of Mandrake. How do I install this? I just did some hackin' about with it myself, and it looks like you would need to upgrade your install of libgal as well, and you could end up descending into a deep dark pit of dependencies. 9.2 comes with root-ZIJyqw/fGic at public.gmane.org:/home/joehill/downloads>$rpm -qa | grep libgal libgal2.0_5-1.99.9-3mdk libgal23-0.24-1mdk and it looks like you would need libgal2.0_5-1.99.10. I did a search and could not find any 9.2 packages for that. I even tried "urpmi --auto-select to see if there were newer packages anywhere, and no libgal. You would probably need to update your whole install to cooker. I bet Austin would know an easy method for doing that. He should have something like a bat signal, except with the Mandrake logo ;-) -- JoeHill ++ ICQ # 280779813 Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "The philosophers have only interpreted the world in various ways. The point, however, is to change it."-- Karl Marx -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From dmorton-VBJBm02B4Ag at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 27 13:09:07 2003 From: dmorton-VBJBm02B4Ag at public.gmane.org (dave morton) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2003 08:09:07 -0500 Subject: use of html now acceptable ? Message-ID: <3FC5F773.7000404@ilap.com> I notice the use of html emoticons (i.e. smileys etc) creeping into technical discussion lists. Is this now considered good form? I don't wish to be labelled a curmudgeon, but let's all try to use "big boy/big girl" grammar and form. Slang usage such as bein', n e ways etc are best left in informal forums such as instant messaging. Turn off the html PLEASE. Dave -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 27 13:06:30 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2003 08:06:30 -0500 Subject: Debian Updates In-Reply-To: References: <3FBFB82A.9000404@enoreo.on.ca> <1990.216.138.194.32.1069871903.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> <20031126151634.038e30cf.joehill@sympatico.ca> <200311261638.03697.fraser@wehave.net> <20031126171033.6b63f292.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <20031127080630.1cbfd331.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Thu, 27 Nov 2003 02:09:22 -0500 (EST) "Byron Q. Desnoyers Winmill" wrote: > > What's this seething prejudice against GUI's? > > I would imagine that a lot of us are attracted to Linux by the CLI. Great! I like it too, the more I learn how to use it. But that's why we have a variety of distros with varying degrees of separation between the CLI and the GUI. > > I believe that Linux can and will eventually develop a GUI that is as > > powerful and extensible as the Mac interface > > Actually, the Macintosh GUI is in steady decline. It started around the > System 7.5 era, and is continuing with Mac OS X. > > > Why would that be such a terrible thing? > > Because the shell would loose its dominance? Not necessarily. Like I said, that's why we have a variety of distros, from Slackware to Mandrake and everything in between. That's what I love about Linux, there's something for everyone, or at least I really hope there *will be*. To paraphrase the great John Lennon, "give Linux a chance...". -- JoeHill ++ ICQ # 280779813 Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "Where the state begins, individual liberty ceases, and vice versa." -- Bakunin -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 27 13:26:04 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2003 08:26:04 -0500 Subject: use of html now acceptable ? In-Reply-To: <3FC5F773.7000404-VBJBm02B4Ag@public.gmane.org> References: <3FC5F773.7000404@ilap.com> Message-ID: <20031127082604.614ca19b.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Thu, 27 Nov 2003 08:09:07 -0500 dave morton wrote: > I notice the use of html emoticons (i.e. smileys etc) creeping into > technical discussion lists. Is this now considered good form? I think the smileys are "rendered" automatically by your mailer, interpreting a colon dash semi-colon as a "wink". I haven't noticed anyone sending in HTML. 'Twould be nice if we all spoke the King's English, but ya gotta live with a little variety, knowwhatimsayin'? ;-) -- JoeHill ++ ICQ # 280779813 Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "Reality is what you can get away with." -- Robert Anton Wilson -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lists-Gb8Tj4xcA4YgsBAKwltoeQ at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 27 15:22:45 2003 From: lists-Gb8Tj4xcA4YgsBAKwltoeQ at public.gmane.org (Byron Q. Desnoyers Winmill) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2003 10:22:45 -0500 (EST) Subject: Debian Updates In-Reply-To: <20031127080630.1cbfd331.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FBFB82A.9000404@enoreo.on.ca> <1990.216.138.194.32.1069871903.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> <20031126151634.038e30cf.joehill@sympatico.ca> <200311261638.03697.fraser@wehave.net> <20031126171033.6b63f292.joehill@sympatico.ca> <20031127080630.1cbfd331.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, 27 Nov 2003, JoeHill wrote: > To paraphrase the great John Lennon, "give Linux a chance...". Odd, I did a quick search of the kernel sources and couldn't find: if ( hw == TACTICAL_NUKE ) disarm(); Somebody should change that ... Byron. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 27 14:23:38 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2003 09:23:38 -0500 Subject: Debian Updates In-Reply-To: References: <3FBFB82A.9000404@enoreo.on.ca> <1990.216.138.194.32.1069871903.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> <20031126151634.038e30cf.joehill@sympatico.ca> <200311261638.03697.fraser@wehave.net> <20031126171033.6b63f292.joehill@sympatico.ca> <20031127080630.1cbfd331.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <20031127092338.4683fb70.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Thu, 27 Nov 2003 10:22:45 -0500 (EST) "Byron Q. Desnoyers Winmill" wrote: > Odd, I did a quick search of the kernel sources and couldn't find: > > if ( hw == TACTICAL_NUKE ) disarm(); > > Somebody should change that ... Score: 10, Funny! I love geek humour... -- JoeHill ++ ICQ # 280779813 Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "The philosophers have only interpreted the world in various ways. The point, however, is to change it."-- Karl Marx -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From hughreilly1-PkbjNfxxIARBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 27 14:40:30 2003 From: hughreilly1-PkbjNfxxIARBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Hugh Reilly) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2003 09:40:30 -0500 Subject: GUI Message-ID: Good morning all! Quick question. Which is better, KDE or GNOME? Or is there something better? Don't really wanna hear about those lesser "windows managers" whatevers. I'm looking for state-of-the-art GUI paradise. -Hugh _______________________________________________ Hugh Reilly XEN Technology Group | LinuxLab 600 Bay Street, Suite 405 Toronto ON M5R 1G6 tel: 416-204-9951 fax: 416-204-9723 email: info-2K4XOyu7qTosA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org _______________________________________________ http://www.xen.ca | http://www.linuxlab.ca _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lance-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 27 15:00:51 2003 From: lance-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Lance F. Squire) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2003 10:00:51 -0500 Subject: GUI In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3FC611A3.9060907@alteeve.com> Hugh Reilly wrote: > Good morning all! > > Quick question. Which is better, KDE or GNOME? Or is there something > better? Don't really wanna hear about those lesser "windows managers" > whatevers. I'm looking for state-of-the-art GUI paradise. > That will hugely depend on who you talk to and what they are familiar with. Both Gnome and KDE are good desktops. I myself prefer Gnome, Mostly because it works more like the STs and Amigas I use to use. My Wife uses KDE because it works more like the Windows desktops she is used to. My Co-worker started with KDE for familierity, but then switched to Gnome. Unfrotunatly for many people this becomes a religous war simular to: Vi vs. Emacs (I use Pico :) ) Atari vs. Commodore etc... The best thing to do is install both and try them out. Having both installed is best anyway as you can then use eithers programs from the other desktop anyway. Enjoy, Lance F. Squire -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From aacton-B71PBEe7S7Y at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 27 15:04:31 2003 From: aacton-B71PBEe7S7Y at public.gmane.org (Austin) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2003 10:04:31 -0500 Subject: GUI In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1069945469.2138.1.camel@gamma373-365.portable.resnet.yorku.ca> On Thu, 2003-11-27 at 09:40, Hugh Reilly wrote: > Quick question. Which is better, KDE or GNOME? Or is there something better? > Don't really wanna hear about those lesser "windows managers" whatevers. I'm > looking for state-of-the-art GUI paradise. Recent versions are VERY similar in function. It's a matter of preference. I like Gnome because the panel is far more configurable, and I find KDE's QT widgets very clunky. But all in all, neither one is 'better'. Austin -- Austin Acton Synthetic Organic Chemist, Teaching Assistant, Ph.D. Candidate Department of Chemistry, York University, Toronto MandrakeLinux Volunteer Developer, homepage: www.groundstate.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From talexb-SBdzbUvMQDunS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 27 15:05:03 2003 From: talexb-SBdzbUvMQDunS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org (talexb-SBdzbUvMQDunS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2003 10:05:03 -0500 (EST) Subject: use of html now acceptable ? In-Reply-To: <3FC5F773.7000404-VBJBm02B4Ag@public.gmane.org> References: <3FC5F773.7000404@ilap.com> Message-ID: Hi Dave, I don't object to the occasional use of smileys -- they assist in conveying the message. I am with you on the use of 'elite' language, however; let's speak English -- we're technical folk, not rappers. And this is E-Mail, not a cell phone, so abbreviations really aren't necessary. If you want to laugh out loud, please do so, but I prefer not to see LOL (or TIA, ROTFLMAO, BCNU, TIA or anything else like that) on a technical mailing list. And I am also with you with regard to HTML. Plain text only. And now for the nit: I believe smileys pre-date HTML. Cheers. Alex On Thu, 27 Nov 2003, dave morton wrote: > I notice the use of html emoticons (i.e. smileys etc) creeping into > technical discussion lists. Is this now considered good form? > > I don't wish to be labelled a curmudgeon, but let's all try to use > "big boy/big girl" grammar and form. Slang usage such as bein', n e ways > etc are best left in informal forums such as instant messaging. Turn off > the html PLEASE. > > Dave > > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From talexb-SBdzbUvMQDunS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 27 15:10:05 2003 From: talexb-SBdzbUvMQDunS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org (talexb-SBdzbUvMQDunS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2003 10:10:05 -0500 (EST) Subject: GUI In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Hugh, Any question that asks 'What is best?' has no answers, only preferences. I use WindowMaker for the sole reason that I can use Alt + 1, 2, 3 or ... to get to a particular desktop screen instead of hunting for the appropriate little picture on my taskbar. If in doubt, I can press F11 to get a list of available windows. It suits me, anyway. Alex On Thu, 27 Nov 2003, Hugh Reilly wrote: > Good morning all! > > Quick question. Which is better, KDE or GNOME? Or is there something better? > Don't really wanna hear about those lesser "windows managers" whatevers. I'm > looking for state-of-the-art GUI paradise. > > > > -Hugh > _______________________________________________ > Hugh Reilly > XEN Technology Group | LinuxLab > 600 Bay Street, Suite 405 > Toronto ON M5R 1G6 > tel: 416-204-9951 > fax: 416-204-9723 > email: info-2K4XOyu7qTosA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org > _______________________________________________ > http://www.xen.ca | http://www.linuxlab.ca > > _________________________________________________________________ > Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online > http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From aacton-B71PBEe7S7Y at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 27 15:11:31 2003 From: aacton-B71PBEe7S7Y at public.gmane.org (Austin) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2003 10:11:31 -0500 Subject: mdk: cooker individual software? In-Reply-To: <1069894240.2479.25.camel-bi+AKbBUZKZeoWH0uzbU5w@public.gmane.org> References: <1069894240.2479.25.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <1069945889.2136.9.camel@gamma373-365.portable.resnet.yorku.ca> On Wed, 2003-11-26 at 19:50, Lloyd D Budd wrote: > I want to keep my version of evolution the same across my different > machines (different distros). "The current stable release of Ximian > Evolution is v. 1.4.5.". This release is not appear to be in the stable > version of Mandrake. How do I install this? Do one of the following: 1. Build it from source and install it with 'checkinstall' instead of 'make install'. This will make an RPM, which you can rpm -Uvh. 2. Download the cooker SRPM. Rebuild it with rpm --rebuild. If it works, install the rpm. (it will be in /usr/src/RPM/RPMS) 3. Request it on www.mandrakeclub.com. Someone will do the work for you. You need to be a member to request it, but not to download it. 4. Check rogue RPM sites like Texstar's (www.pclinuxonline.com) or Thac's (http://rpm.nyvalls.se/). They rebuild new stuff for 9.2. Keep in mind, if these eat your hard drive and spit it out at you, it's your own fault. ;-) If none of the above work, I could just email you the RPM. ;-) Austin -- Austin Acton Synthetic Organic Chemist, Teaching Assistant, Ph.D. Candidate Department of Chemistry, York University, Toronto MandrakeLinux Volunteer Developer, homepage: www.groundstate.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lists-jiQtrEI3vUxWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 27 14:43:29 2003 From: lists-jiQtrEI3vUxWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (S P Arif Sahari Wibowo) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2003 09:43:29 -0500 (EST) Subject: Mail Setup help! In-Reply-To: <200311270648.51613.fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org> References: <200311251529.00750.jerome@gmanmi.tv> <20031125175840.GA319@node1.opengeometry.net> <200311271508.36683.jerome@gmanmi.tv> <200311270648.51613.fraser@wehave.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 27 Nov 2003, Fraser Campbell wrote: >On November 27, 2003 02:08 am, JM wrote: >> hi, is it possible to just do a mail forwarding on from freebsd box to >> linux box? i cant edit the DNS since our sister company owns it to.. > >In sendmail you can use a mailertable entry rather than DNS to direct the >mail. Once the email gets to your qmail box then I'm not sure what >you'll have to do, you might have to create local dns so that it knows >it's master MX for your domain, probably you'll just have to create a >file somewhere telling it that it's accepting for your domain. No need for DNS. For qmail, just add the domain into the "locals" control file (/var/qmail/control/locals) and "rcpthosts" control file (/var/qmail/control/rcpthosts). Or you may want to use "virtualdomains". -- Stephan Paul Arif Sahari Wibowo _____ _____ _____ _____ /____ /____/ /____/ /____ arifsaha-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org _____/ / / / _____/ http://www.arifsaha.com/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lists-Gb8Tj4xcA4YgsBAKwltoeQ at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 27 16:33:27 2003 From: lists-Gb8Tj4xcA4YgsBAKwltoeQ at public.gmane.org (Byron Q. Desnoyers Winmill) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2003 11:33:27 -0500 (EST) Subject: GUI In-Reply-To: <3FC611A3.9060907-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <3FC611A3.9060907@alteeve.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 27 Nov 2003, Lance F. Squire wrote: > > Don't really wanna hear about those lesser "windows managers" > > whatevers. I'm looking for state-of-the-art GUI paradise. It is worth pointing out that neither KDE or Gnome are window managers. As for what to choose: look at the applications available for Gnome/gtk+ and KDE/qt, decide upon what you really want, then choose the corresponding desktop manager. If you can, stick to applications which run under that desktop manager. That should give you the most consistency. That is, if you mean user friendly by "state-of-the-art GUI paradise." If you want innovation, then look at the "lesser window managers." There are a lot of people with good ideas, who aren't heard in Gnome's and KDE's attempt to emulate the "industry standard." > Unfrotunatly for many people this becomes a religous war simular to: > Vi vs. Emacs (I use Pico :) ) I think that vi and emacs users can agree on something. ;) But yes, Gnome vs. KDE will degrade into a religious war ... Byron. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 27 15:40:39 2003 From: davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (David J Patrick) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2003 10:40:39 -0500 Subject: use of html now acceptable ? In-Reply-To: <3FC5F773.7000404-VBJBm02B4Ag@public.gmane.org> References: <3FC5F773.7000404@ilap.com> Message-ID: <3FC61AF7.7000608@sympatico.ca> dave morton wrote: > I notice the use of html emoticons (i.e. smileys etc) creeping into > technical discussion lists. Is this now considered good form? > > I don't wish to be labelled a curmudgeon, but let's all try to use > "big boy/big girl" grammar and form. Slang usage such as bein', n e > ways etc are best left in informal forums such as instant messaging. > Turn off the html PLEASE. > > Dave > > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > c'mon Dave; as long as the discussion is relevant and the meaning is clear do you really think there's no room the the writer to use his/her personal style ? It's not like our clients are reading this. You are, IMHO, correct in the attempt to squelch the use of HTML. (or should I type hypertext markup language .. ?) ;-) djp -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 27 15:39:52 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2003 10:39:52 -0500 Subject: mdk: cooker individual software? In-Reply-To: <1069945889.2136.9.camel-33sJirT1wKzlb5+wx7kmt/BjuwtQqDz/bwi28uEu5RN+FfftCXEu2Q@public.gmane.org> References: <1069894240.2479.25.camel@localhost> <1069945889.2136.9.camel@gamma373-365.portable.resnet.yorku.ca> Message-ID: <20031127103952.3f061820.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Thu, 27 Nov 2003 10:11:31 -0500 Austin wrote: > 1. Build it from source and install it with 'checkinstall' instead of > 'make install'. This will make an RPM, which you can rpm -Uvh. > 2. Download the cooker SRPM. Rebuild it with rpm --rebuild. If it > works, install the rpm. (it will be in /usr/src/RPM/RPMS) > 3. Request it on www.mandrakeclub.com. Someone will do the work for > you. You need to be a member to request it, but not to download it. > 4. Check rogue RPM sites like Texstar's (www.pclinuxonline.com) or > Thac's (http://rpm.nyvalls.se/). They rebuild new stuff for 9.2. Keep > in mind, if these eat your hard drive and spit it out at you, it's your > own fault. ;-) > > If none of the above work, I could just email you the RPM. ;-) By any of these methods, will he not run into the dependency on the newer version of libgal? Even building from source, he'll need the newer version, plus it's corresponding -devel lib. Or is there an RPM with the appropriate lib built into it already? This would be something I have not encountered before... -- JoeHill ++ ICQ # 280779813 Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "Every now and then when your life gets complicated and the weasels start closing in, the only real cure is to load up on heinous chemicals and then drive like a bastard from Hollywood to Las Vegas."-- Hunter S. Thompson -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From emir-rdkfGonbjUTTQjIoRn/dzw at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 27 16:27:44 2003 From: emir-rdkfGonbjUTTQjIoRn/dzw at public.gmane.org (Emir) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2003 11:27:44 -0500 Subject: use of html now acceptable ? In-Reply-To: <3FC5F773.7000404-VBJBm02B4Ag@public.gmane.org> References: <3FC5F773.7000404@ilap.com> Message-ID: <3FC62600.8000403@codemonkeys.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 27/11/2003 8:09, dave morton wrote: > I notice the use of html emoticons (i.e. smileys etc) creeping into > technical discussion lists. Is this now considered good form? Tools -> Options -> [ ] Display emoticons as graphics > I don't wish to be labelled a curmudgeon, but let's all try to use > "big boy/big girl" grammar and form. Slang usage such as bein', n e ways > etc are best left in informal forums such as instant messaging. Turn off > the html PLEASE. Language skills vary, not everyone speaks proper English and nobody should be penalized for that. Some consider vernacularism cool, while to others it's patois. I agree vis-a-vis HTML: it's plain rude to use it; then again, there's plenty of people on this list who revel in their rudeness. - -- Emir. "Politicians, like diapers, have to be changed frequently. And for the very same reason." -- Anonymous -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (MingW32) iD8DBQE/xiX/uSy542G+Z7QRAr1RAJ9ebz7optQXVWrXD7Kkn1s15cY5IgCglvoU 3WBLyusCrIph/PNgZGRspFM= =wPLi -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 27 16:51:34 2003 From: henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org (Henry Spencer) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2003 11:51:34 -0500 (EST) Subject: use of html now acceptable ? In-Reply-To: <3FC5F773.7000404-VBJBm02B4Ag@public.gmane.org> References: <3FC5F773.7000404@ilap.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 27 Nov 2003, dave morton wrote: > I notice the use of html emoticons (i.e. smileys etc) creeping into > technical discussion lists. Is this now considered good form? Emoticons have nothing to do with HTML. They are much older than HTML, and at least the most basic one -- the smiley -- has a useful and important function: to make it unambiguously clear that the writer is joking, which is not necessarily clear from the text. > I don't wish to be labelled a curmudgeon, but let's all try to use > "big boy/big girl" grammar and form. Slang usage such as bein', n e ways > etc are best left in informal forums such as instant messaging. Turn off > the html PLEASE. Agreed on the messaging slang and the HTML, but keep the emoticons when they're useful. Henry Spencer henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 27 16:55:49 2003 From: cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org (cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2003 11:55:49 -0500 Subject: use of html now acceptable ? In-Reply-To: Message from dave morton of "Thu, 27 Nov 2003 08:09:07 EST." <3FC5F773.7000404-VBJBm02B4Ag@public.gmane.org> References: <3FC5F773.7000404@ilap.com> Message-ID: <20031127165550.EBB933FF3@cbbrowne.com> > I notice the use of html emoticons (i.e. smileys etc) creeping into > technical discussion lists. Is this now considered good form? Hum? I don't see emoticons in the HTML DTD, whether for 3.2 or 4.0, and don't ever recall them being in any way associated with HTML. According to the Hackers' Dictionary... It appears that the emoticon was invented by one Scott Fahlman on the CMU bboard systems sometime between early 1981 and mid-1982. He later wrote: "I wish I had saved the original post, or at least recorded the date for posterity, but I had no idea that I was starting something that would soon pollute all the world's communication channels." [GLS confirms that he remembers this original posting]. That appears to predate HTML by a goodly 8 years. And if we look at Fahlman's biography, the "creeping" surely looks like it took place a while ago, and not by some clueless "HTML weenie." "In addition to my AI research, I have worked on tools for incremental, exploratory development of complex software systems. I was one of the principal designers of the Common Lisp language. My research group developed the widely used CMU Common Lisp implementation, which set a new standard for Lisp performance. After that, we worked on innovative software development environments for Dylan and Java. I am also interested in the use of AI techniques to build better user interfaces, especially for loose collections of pervasive computing devices." If a "principal designer" of Common Lisp cannot be considered "technical," I'm not sure who conceivably can be. -- let name="cbbrowne" and tld="acm.org" in name ^ "@" ^ tld;; http://cbbrowne.com/info/rdbms.html "As I've gained more experience with Perl it strikes me that it resembles Lisp in many ways, albeit Lisp as channeled by an awk script on acid." -- Tim Moore (on comp.lang.lisp) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From kmastin-PzQIwG9Jn9VAFePFGvp55w at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 27 17:04:09 2003 From: kmastin-PzQIwG9Jn9VAFePFGvp55w at public.gmane.org (Keith Mastin) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2003 12:04:09 -0500 (EST) Subject: use of html now acceptable ? In-Reply-To: <3FC5F773.7000404-VBJBm02B4Ag@public.gmane.org> References: <3FC5F773.7000404@ilap.com> Message-ID: <3472.216.138.194.32.1069952649.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> > I notice the use of html emoticons (i.e. smileys etc) creeping into > technical discussion lists. Is this now considered good form? > > I don't wish to be labelled a curmudgeon, but let's all try to use > "big boy/big girl" grammar and form. Slang usage such as bein', n e ways > etc are best left in informal forums such as instant messaging. Turn off > the html PLEASE. No HTML,m Wrap below 80 lines... that's the TLUG standard. My understanding of emoticons is that they are a graphic, where a smiley is ASCII. -- Keith -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jason-2F8E0OLjuh154TAoqtyWWQ at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 27 17:32:05 2003 From: jason-2F8E0OLjuh154TAoqtyWWQ at public.gmane.org (Jason Slaughter) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2003 12:32:05 -0500 Subject: use of html now acceptable ? In-Reply-To: <3472.216.138.194.32.1069952649.squirrel-16UnNR4aCrhlws70yGkXPA@public.gmane.org> References: <3FC5F773.7000404@ilap.com> <3472.216.138.194.32.1069952649.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> Message-ID: <200311271232.05807.jason@slaughter.com> On November 27, 2003 12:04 pm, Keith Mastin wrote: > No HTML,m Wrap below 80 lines... that's the TLUG standard. My > understanding of emoticons is that they are a graphic, where a smiley is > ASCII. I imagine what happened here is that the original person who complained has a mail client that turns ":)" into a graphic and though that it was being sent that way (as a graphic) in HTML by the sender. I know Mozilla Thunderbird does this "out of the box" and I had to explicitly shut off this behaviour in Tools->Options->Display->Display emoticons as graphics. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From kmastin-PzQIwG9Jn9VAFePFGvp55w at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 27 17:16:24 2003 From: kmastin-PzQIwG9Jn9VAFePFGvp55w at public.gmane.org (Keith Mastin) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2003 12:16:24 -0500 (EST) Subject: Debian Updates In-Reply-To: References: <3FBFB82A.9000404@enoreo.on.ca><20031122163208.0d02c014.joehill@sympatico.ca><200311230011.27158.fraser@wehave.net><20031123061550.79f1de57.joehill@sympatico.ca><1372.216.138.194.32.1069809209.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> <20031126053203.38f0447f.joehill@sympatico.ca><1990.216.138.194.32.1069871903.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> <2353.216.138.194.32.1069876797.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> Message-ID: <3529.216.138.194.32.1069953384.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> > Even if the GUI provided a simple forms based interface, it would be > better than digging out a text editor. This is because the program can > create a structured configuration process, and this structured process > would allow it to detect errors in a more meaningful manner. Like it or > not, most of us don't have perfect fingers or perfect memories. "Even if", or "If"? If such a gui exists, let's take a look at it. Before I use a gui to configure anything, I would like to see that the syntax of the gui is 100% correct, that no 2 lines conflict with each other, (ie. if you use this, then don't (or do) use that), and that *_all_* the possible configurations are available. The best that I can remember seeing is for configuring the linux kernel, and even that could use some fine tuning before it's ready for prime-time use by non-techie types. Too many options with too little information for making a decision without some massive homework. -- Keith -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 27 17:48:33 2003 From: cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org (cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2003 12:48:33 -0500 Subject: use of html now acceptable ? In-Reply-To: Message from Jason Slaughter of "Thu, 27 Nov 2003 12:32:05 EST." <200311271232.05807.jason-2F8E0OLjuh154TAoqtyWWQ@public.gmane.org> References: <3FC5F773.7000404@ilap.com> <3472.216.138.194.32.1069952649.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> <200311271232.05807.jason@slaughter.com> Message-ID: <20031127174834.2B2E43FF3@cbbrowne.com> > On November 27, 2003 12:04 pm, Keith Mastin wrote: > > No HTML,m Wrap below 80 lines... that's the TLUG standard. My > > understanding of emoticons is that they are a graphic, where a smiley is > > ASCII. > > I imagine what happened here is that the original person who > complained has a mail client that turns ":)" into a graphic and though > that it was being sent that way (as a graphic) in HTML by the > sender. I know Mozilla Thunderbird does this "out of the box" and I > had to explicitly shut off this behaviour in > Tools->Options->Display->Display emoticons as graphics. XEmacs will render emoticons as graphics, which has nothing to do with HTML... Ditto for most instant messaging systems. -- wm(X,Y):-write(X),write('@'),write(Y). wm('cbbrowne','cbbrowne.com'). http://www.ntlug.org/~cbbrowne/linux.html Thank you for flying U.S.A.F. We hope that you will consider us again when your travel plans next include bombing Tripoli. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 27 17:57:39 2003 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2003 12:57:39 -0500 Subject: GUI In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20031127175739.GA447@node1.opengeometry.net> On Thu, Nov 27, 2003 at 09:40:30AM -0500, Hugh Reilly wrote: > Good morning all! > > Quick question. Which is better, KDE or GNOME? Or is there something > better? Don't really wanna hear about those lesser "windows managers" > whatevers. I'm looking for state-of-the-art GUI paradise. Windows is way better and original. KDE/GNOME are bad copy of it, but they do what you would expect them to do. So, it depends on who you are selling it to. -- William Park, Open Geometry Consulting, Linux solution for data management and processing. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From c.f.a.johnson-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 27 17:41:42 2003 From: c.f.a.johnson-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Chris F.A. Johnson) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2003 12:41:42 -0500 (EST) Subject: use of html now acceptable ? In-Reply-To: <3472.216.138.194.32.1069952649.squirrel-16UnNR4aCrhlws70yGkXPA@public.gmane.org> References: <3FC5F773.7000404@ilap.com> <3472.216.138.194.32.1069952649.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, 27 Nov 2003, Keith Mastin wrote: > > > I notice the use of html emoticons (i.e. smileys etc) creeping into > > technical discussion lists. Is this now considered good form? > > > > I don't wish to be labelled a curmudgeon, but let's all try to use > > "big boy/big girl" grammar and form. Slang usage such as bein', n e ways > > etc are best left in informal forums such as instant messaging. Turn off > > the html PLEASE. > > No HTML,m Wrap below 80 lines... that's the TLUG standard. My > understanding of emoticons is that they are a graphic, where a smiley is > ASCII. Emoticon == smiley They may be translated into graphics by some software (news and mail readers, for example). I believe there is also an extended set of graphical emoticons used by Micros..t. -- Chris F.A. Johnson ================================================================= cfaj-uVmiyxGBW52XDw4h08c5KA at public.gmane.org http://cfaj.freeshell.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From kmastin-PzQIwG9Jn9VAFePFGvp55w at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 27 17:47:29 2003 From: kmastin-PzQIwG9Jn9VAFePFGvp55w at public.gmane.org (Keith Mastin) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2003 12:47:29 -0500 (EST) Subject: Debian Updates In-Reply-To: <20031126171033.6b63f292.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FBFB82A.9000404@enoreo.on.ca><1990.216.138.194.32.1069871903.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca><20031126151634.038e30cf.joehill@sympatico.ca><200311261638.03697.fraser@wehave.net> <20031126171033.6b63f292.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <3603.216.138.194.32.1069955249.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> > What's this seething prejudice against GUI's? Yes, as I've stated, the > CLI is a much more precise and, in a lot of cases, better interface > for configuration. I really don't have any prejudice against gui's per se, but to use one that is insecure and gives only a small portion of the options available to configure a server... > It's best, in certain cases, to see what's goin' on in the background, > esp as Kieth pointed out with server functions such as DNS. However, > GUI's *can* be a Good Thing, as the Mac has proved beyond doubt. Mac built on BSD or Mac before that? Each has it's issues... > I believe that Linux can and will eventually develop a GUI that is as > powerful and extensible as the Mac interface, and there is a future > for Linux on the home desktop. Why would that be such a terrible > thing? And if it makes it easier for the home desktop user to > configure "scheduled tasks" through a GUI, why not? For home desktop use, fill yer boots. I complain the loudest when a gui is the first solution if it's not the best one, and all the more so if you suggest a gui for a server or in an insecure environment. > Perhaps Webmin isn't always the best sol'n, but nor is crontab, given > a certain set of circumstances (user experience, function, purpose, > etc.). > > And hey, as *someone* pointed out, intelligent self interest is a > positive thang, and it is in my best interest to have more people > using Linux on the home desktop, so I never have to fork over the > bucks for a Mac to avoid using that POS Windows OS that hangs and > crashes and infects everything it touches. Your best way to push for those changes would be on any the Desktop Environment mailing lists... Of course if you really really need a top heavy gui enviro to play in over top af a linux kernel, there's always Lindoh$... > So I's gonna keep pushin' the 'ease of use' GUI approach, where > appropriate, so I can have my cake and eat it all up too! Of course, > you can feel free to pop me one when it's *inappropriate*, as you > quite rightly did with suggesting cron-apt instead of Webmin. I > learned, he learned, it's a community/mailing list dynamic, word? Yup. I felt like I got laughed out of the school yard on my first server, complaining that X kept crashing... till someone spoke up and gave me what-fer for using a gui on a server. Stuff stopped crashing, and all of a sudden I could see so much more of the power of linux that I thought everyone was bs'ing about. I still run mostly linux boxen, but there are some things that I prefer other distos for. Anything that needs tighter security gets a dose of BSD, and we develop our websites on Macs and Windoh$ PCs. Specific tools for specific jobs... -- Keith -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lance-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 27 18:19:08 2003 From: lance-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Lance F. Squire) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2003 13:19:08 -0500 Subject: GUI In-Reply-To: <20031127175739.GA447-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20031127175739.GA447@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <3FC6401C.4090709@alteeve.com> William Park wrote: > > Windows is way better and original. Original! Hardly. Mac was first, and even they copyed an old Xerox system most people never heard about. Digital Reserch's GEM enviroment, Primarily on Atari STs though also available for the PCs, and Commodore's 'Intuition' were fully functional GUI desktops when 'Windows' was little more than a graphical shell for DOS. I'm sure 'X' predates it also. Lance -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jason-2F8E0OLjuh154TAoqtyWWQ at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 27 18:30:45 2003 From: jason-2F8E0OLjuh154TAoqtyWWQ at public.gmane.org (Jason Slaughter) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2003 13:30:45 -0500 Subject: use of html now acceptable ? In-Reply-To: <20031127174834.2B2E43FF3-xzRQuAxiFLNWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org> References: <3FC5F773.7000404@ilap.com> <200311271232.05807.jason@slaughter.com> <20031127174834.2B2E43FF3@cbbrowne.com> Message-ID: <200311271330.45853.jason@slaughter.com> On November 27, 2003 12:48 pm, cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org wrote: > > I imagine what happened here is that the original person who > > complained has a mail client that turns ":)" into a graphic and though > > that it was being sent that way (as a graphic) in HTML by the > > sender. I know Mozilla Thunderbird does this "out of the box" and I > > had to explicitly shut off this behaviour in > > Tools->Options->Display->Display emoticons as graphics. > > XEmacs will render emoticons as graphics, which has nothing to do with > HTML... > > Ditto for most instant messaging systems. Yes, of course, but in the context of email it does explain why even a seasoned veteran may blame HMTL mail for the graphical smileys. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From blsonne-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 27 18:35:29 2003 From: blsonne-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Byron Sonne) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2003 13:35:29 -0500 Subject: use of html now acceptable ? In-Reply-To: References: <3FC5F773.7000404@ilap.com> <3472.216.138.194.32.1069952649.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> Message-ID: <3FC643F1.4000203@rogers.com> > I believe there is also an extended set of graphical emoticons > used by Micros..t. You know, it just occurred to me that if they ever wanted to start collecting intelligence on all the people who hate them, all they have to do is google for pejorative tweaks of their name i.e. Microshit, Micrco$oft, M$, etc... hell, I probably made some database with that list right there! -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From teddymills-VFlxZYho3OA at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 27 18:37:25 2003 From: teddymills-VFlxZYho3OA at public.gmane.org (Teddy Mills) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2003 13:37:25 -0500 Subject: Confused as Chris Griffin Message-ID: <001701c3b515$8480cc80$0301a8c0@amazon> Q1 FORWARD chain "are for packets destined for other hosts" Well, why am I recieving packets that arent meant for me? Why can I just DROP all packets recieved on the FORWARD chain? What exactly is the FORWARD chains function ? Q2 INPUT chain is for packets destined for our local machine. Do these packets originate from Internet and all my LAN hosts? Q3 OUTPUT chain is for packets generated locally, now leaving. Is this just for the Linux "lo" interface? What about the local LAN interface and all my LAN hosts? Confused as Chris Griffin..... --------------------------------------------------------------- teddy mills http://www.vger.ca VGER directives...To collect...all that is collectable. To sell...all that is saleable.To merchandise...all that is merchandisable. Family Guys, Quagmire "allllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll right" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 27 19:12:55 2003 From: henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org (Henry Spencer) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2003 14:12:55 -0500 (EST) Subject: GUI In-Reply-To: <3FC6401C.4090709-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <3FC6401C.4090709@alteeve.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 27 Nov 2003, Lance F. Squire wrote: > Mac was first, and even they copyed an old Xerox system... > Digital Reserch's GEM enviroment, Primarily on Atari STs though also > available for the PCs, and Commodore's 'Intuition' were fully functional > GUI desktops when 'Windows' was little more than a graphical shell for DOS. And don't forget IBM's OS/2. Either MacOS or OS/2 could have owned the desktop market in the same way Windows owns it now, had their parent companies displayed a modicum of intelligence. It took Microsoft a long time to respond adequately to the Mac, and the pent-up demand for a graphical environment was enormous by the time the first usable Windows (3.0 or thereabouts) appeared. The first graphical environment with a solid set of basic applications running on cheap hardware was going to take over the market and make somebody a whole lot of money, and either Apple or IBM could have delivered it well before Microslop. But Apple was (and still is) bent on using MacOS to sell overpriced hardware, and IBM marketing was far gone into senility and couldn't grasp how vital it was to have a proper applications lineup for OS/2. Henry Spencer henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From aitken-BwLjziHGQLusTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 27 18:23:33 2003 From: aitken-BwLjziHGQLusTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Chris Aitken) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2003 13:23:33 -0500 Subject: use of html now acceptable ? References: <3FC5F773.7000404@ilap.com> Message-ID: <3FC64125.630D26F9@onlink.net> dave morton wrote: > I notice the use of html emoticons (i.e. smileys etc) creeping into > technical discussion lists. Is this now considered good form? > > I don't wish to be labelled a curmudgeon, but let's all try to use > "big boy/big girl" grammar and form. Slang usage such as bein', n e ways > etc are best left in informal forums such as instant messaging. Turn off > the html PLEASE. I agree. I think we can keep it loose without slumming. Chriis -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From aitken-BwLjziHGQLusTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 27 18:26:45 2003 From: aitken-BwLjziHGQLusTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Chris Aitken) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2003 13:26:45 -0500 Subject: GUI References: Message-ID: <3FC641E5.D0B4598E@onlink.net> Hugh Reilly wrote: > Good morning all! > > Quick question. Which is better, KDE or GNOME? Hugh, You are being naughty. You know that is not a "quick question". It's the spark that lights the flame. : ) > Or is there something better? > Don't really wanna hear about those lesser "windows managers" whatevers. You are really asking for trouble. It looks like I'm going to have to finally learn how to filter out emails by subject - this thread is going to choke my email. Chris -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From mwilson-4YeSL8/OYKRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 27 18:58:13 2003 From: mwilson-4YeSL8/OYKRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Mel Wilson) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2003 13:58:13 -0500 Subject: use of html now acceptable ? References: Message-ID: In article , Henry Spencer wrote: >Agreed on the messaging slang and the HTML, but keep the emoticons when >they're useful. Sometimes I find valid HTML markup to be essential for making my points. Regards. Mel. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From serge_ss-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 27 19:28:56 2003 From: serge_ss-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (serge_ss-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2003 14:28:56 -0500 Subject: Confused as Chris Griffin Message-ID: <20031127192856.TXPR19573.tomts9-srv.bellnexxia.net@smtp.bellnexxia.net> Hi Teddy, Just an example: FORWARD: 192.168.0.15 -> www.tlug.org ----------- the box --------------- 192.168.0.15 -> | 192.168.0.1 -> public interface | -> www.tlug.org -------------- FORWARD ------------ INPUT: 192.168.0.15 -> 192.168.0.1 or Internet -> public interface ----------- the box --------------- 192.168.0.15 -> | eth0 192.168.0.1 pub i-face eth1| <- Internet INPUT eth0 INPUT eth1 OUTPUT: 192.168.0.1 -> 192.168.0.15 or public interface ->Internet ----------- the box --------------- 192.168.0.15 <- | 192.168.0.1 public interface | -> Internet output eth0 -------------- output eth1 Unlike ipchains, iptables treats those chains separately, what means in ipchains FORWARD would generate INPUT eth0 FORWARD eth0->eth1 OUTPUT eth1 and in iptables it's just FORWARD eth0->eth1 Sorry for being rather schematic, but hope I was helpful. Sergey > > From: "Teddy Mills" > Date: 2003/11/27 Thu PM 01:37:25 EST > To: > Subject: [TLUG]: Confused as Chris Griffin > > > Q1 > FORWARD chain "are for packets destined for other hosts" > Well, why am I recieving packets that arent meant for me? > Why can I just DROP all packets recieved on the FORWARD chain? > What exactly is the FORWARD chains function ? > > Q2 > INPUT chain is for packets destined for our local machine. > Do these packets originate from Internet and all my LAN hosts? > > Q3 > OUTPUT chain is for packets generated locally, now leaving. > Is this just for the Linux "lo" interface? > What about the local LAN interface and all my LAN hosts? > > > Confused as Chris Griffin..... > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > teddy mills > http://www.vger.ca > VGER directives...To collect...all that is collectable. To sell...all that > is saleable.To merchandise...all that is merchandisable. > > Family Guys, Quagmire > "allllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll right" > > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From matt-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 27 19:35:59 2003 From: matt-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Matthew Rice) Date: 27 Nov 2003 14:35:59 -0500 Subject: use of html now acceptable ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: mwilson-4YeSL8/OYKRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Mel Wilson) writes: > In article , > Henry Spencer wrote: > >Agreed on the messaging slang and the HTML, but keep the emoticons when > >they're useful. > > Sometimes I find valid HTML markup to > be essential for making my points. Hmm. I don't see 'sarcasm' listed as a valid HTML element: http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/index/elements.html Perhaps you meant 'valid SGML or XML markup' ;) -- matthew rice starnix inc. phone: 905-771-0017 x242 thornhill, ontario, canada http://www.starnix.com professional linux services & products -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From taavi-LbuTpDkqzNzXI80/IeQp7B2eb7JE58TQ at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 27 19:36:47 2003 From: taavi-LbuTpDkqzNzXI80/IeQp7B2eb7JE58TQ at public.gmane.org (Taavi Burns) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2003 14:36:47 -0500 Subject: GUI In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20031127193647.GD5934@hatefulsheep.ym.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> On Thu, Nov 27, 2003 at 09:40:30AM -0500, Hugh Reilly wrote: > Quick question. Which is better, KDE or GNOME? Or is there something > better? Don't really wanna hear about those lesser "windows managers" > whatevers. I'm looking for state-of-the-art GUI paradise. You want GUI paradise? Go buy a mac and put Panther (OSX 10.3) on it. Hardware accelreated compositing, industry-standard colour correction profiles, and corporate technical support. Oh, you wanted some bleeding edge open source thing? Try looking at http://www.pycage.de/expocity.html and http://xserver.freedesktop.org/. -- taa /*eof*/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From aacton-B71PBEe7S7Y at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 27 18:45:35 2003 From: aacton-B71PBEe7S7Y at public.gmane.org (Austin) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2003 13:45:35 -0500 Subject: mdk: cooker individual software? In-Reply-To: <20031127103952.3f061820.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org>; from joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org on Thu, Nov 27, 2003 at 10:39:52 -0500 References: <1069894240.2479.25.camel@localhost> <1069945889.2136.9.camel@gamma373-365.portable.resnet.yorku.ca> <20031127103952.3f061820.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <20031127184535.GA2449@groundstate.chem.yorku.ca> On 11/27/2003 10:39:52 AM, JoeHill wrote: > By any of these methods, will he not run into the dependency on the > newer > version of libgal? Even building from source, he'll need the newer > version, plus > it's corresponding -devel lib. > > Or is there an RPM with the appropriate lib built into it already? > This would be > something I have not encountered before... Well it depends on whether it requires the newest libgal to build or not. I'm not sure. Of course, if he gets an RPM wherein the binary was built against the new libgal, then sure, he'll also have to install the library package. But unlike RedHat, Mandrake allows you to install several different versions of any library, so you don't have to remove other packages that require the older version. If it will build against his version of libgal though, even less to worry about. Austin -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 27 19:37:18 2003 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2003 14:37:18 -0500 Subject: GUI In-Reply-To: <3FC6401C.4090709-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20031127175739.GA447@node1.opengeometry.net> <3FC6401C.4090709@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <20031127193718.GA867@node1.opengeometry.net> On Thu, Nov 27, 2003 at 01:19:08PM -0500, Lance F. Squire wrote: > William Park wrote: > > > >Windows is way better and original. > > Original! Hardly. > > Mac was first, and even they copyed an old Xerox system most people > never heard about. > > Digital Reserch's GEM enviroment, Primarily on Atari STs though also > available for the PCs, and Commodore's 'Intuition' were fully functional > GUI desktops when 'Windows' was little more than a graphical shell for DOS. > > I'm sure 'X' predates it also. I had Atari and Mac, and, even then, Windows 3.1 was better. -- William Park, Open Geometry Consulting, Linux solution for data management and processing. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 27 19:47:36 2003 From: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2003 14:47:36 -0500 (EST) Subject: Confused as Chris Griffin In-Reply-To: <001701c3b515$8480cc80$0301a8c0-vAnPq90cUBg@public.gmane.org> References: <001701c3b515$8480cc80$0301a8c0@amazon> Message-ID: On Thu, 27 Nov 2003, Teddy Mills wrote: > Q1 > FORWARD chain "are for packets destined for other hosts" > Well, why am I recieving packets that arent meant for me? The FORWARD chain is for packets being routed through the box. > Why can I just DROP all packets recieved on the FORWARD chain? If you aren't routing any data through you _should_ set the FORWARD chain to DROP (as well as having ip_forward set to 0). > Q2 > INPUT chain is for packets destined for our local machine. > Do these packets originate from Internet and all my LAN hosts? Yep, any packet with a desination address that your host understands to be itself will pass through this chain. > Q3 > OUTPUT chain is for packets generated locally, now leaving. > Is this just for the Linux "lo" interface? No, it's not just for lo, any locally generate packet leaving your host will pass through this chain on the way out. > What about the local LAN interface and all my LAN hosts? Many people just setp OUTPUT to ACCEPT unless there is some reason you want to block outgoing packets. Many large companies do this and more often than not it just prevents people from making legitimate use of the network. Rob -- Robert Brockway B.Sc. email: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org, zzbrock at uqconnect.net Linux counter project ID #16440 (http://counter.li.org) "The earth is but one country and mankind its citizens" -Baha'u'llah -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 27 19:53:40 2003 From: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2003 14:53:40 -0500 (EST) Subject: use of html now acceptable ? In-Reply-To: <20031127165550.EBB933FF3-xzRQuAxiFLNWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org> References: <3FC5F773.7000404@ilap.com> <20031127165550.EBB933FF3@cbbrowne.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 27 Nov 2003 cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org wrote: > That appears to predate HTML by a goodly 8 years. More I believe. HTML wasn't started until 1991 (IIRCP) and didn't really catch on until 1994 or so. Remember the gopher? :) The original poster was talking about the client changing a true smiley into one of those annoying graphial smilies I think. Rob -- Robert Brockway B.Sc. email: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org, zzbrock at uqconnect.net Linux counter project ID #16440 (http://counter.li.org) "The earth is but one country and mankind its citizens" -Baha'u'llah -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lance-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 27 20:05:50 2003 From: lance-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Lance F. Squire) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2003 15:05:50 -0500 Subject: GUI In-Reply-To: <20031127193718.GA867-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20031127175739.GA447@node1.opengeometry.net> <3FC6401C.4090709@alteeve.com> <20031127193718.GA867@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <3FC6591E.1000808@alteeve.com> William Park wrote: > > > I had Atari and Mac, and, even then, Windows 3.1 was better. > In Your Opinion. 3.1 could not manage files from the desk top. It only displayed programs. You had to run a file management program to do anything other than launch a program. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 27 20:52:07 2003 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2003 15:52:07 -0500 (EST) Subject: Looking for Advice Message-ID: <1227.65.95.217.186.1069966327.squirrel@host.bettermarkets.com> Hi everyone, I have a question that I am hoping someone here has worked through. I decided that, given some stuff going on right now, that I should really try getting a job to get some steady income for a bit. The problem I am facing though, as I am guessing others here have faced is, how do you get a job when you are self taught? The only place I have worked in the past outside of my own company was, strangly enough, teaching evening courses at George Brown :). So my question is, how have some of you gone about getting a job when you have no paper work but are good at what you do? How do you get a given company to even respond to your resume? I have sent out quite a large number of resumes but so far I only got one interview. For what it is worth; I have been actively building, troubleshooting and supporting PC systems since '97 (under windows and linux). Anyway, if nothing else take this as an exasperted rant :). Madison -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 27 21:26:33 2003 From: henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org (Henry Spencer) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2003 16:26:33 -0500 (EST) Subject: Looking for Advice In-Reply-To: <1227.65.95.217.186.1069966327.squirrel-cSwQExXi3C0g59NOP9PCHBGZ6WaZejjh@public.gmane.org> References: <1227.65.95.217.186.1069966327.squirrel@host.bettermarkets.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 27 Nov 2003, Madison Kelly wrote: > So my question is, how have some of you gone about getting a job when > you have no paper work but are good at what you do? How do you get a > given company to even respond to your resume? Basically, you have to think "pull" rather than "push": you need somebody at the company telling the H.R. department "I want to see MK's resume even if it doesn't look like he's qualified". H.R. departments generally don't understand technical people but do understand credentials. If you don't have credentials and aren't well enough known for reputation alone to get you in the door, you need to develop contacts. (Actually, those three cases boil down to two: the reputation seldom does the job by itself, it just makes it easier to acquire contacts.) Henry Spencer henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From dmorton-VBJBm02B4Ag at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 27 21:34:57 2003 From: dmorton-VBJBm02B4Ag at public.gmane.org (dave morton) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2003 16:34:57 -0500 Subject: use of html now acceptable ? In-Reply-To: <3FC61AF7.7000608-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FC5F773.7000404@ilap.com> <3FC5F773.7000404@ilap.com> <3FC61AF7.7000608@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20031127160054.00a06ec0@pop3.ilap.com> Again.... Not to seem too stuffed shirt ( he he he.... LOL, 'n e how, he he he...) I wish to be able to understand the dialog. I am not railing against sloppy sentence structure, typos, poor grammar or the like; those are all perfectly acceptable. What I am simply requesting is that colloquial writing styles try to be avoided. If you can 'rap' the question to the tlug in a clear format, or as an acrostic poem, I don't care; just so long as the meaning is clear. Avoid graphical smiley faces and non sequiturs. I learn buckets from reading these mailing lists, so clarity and economy of words is really appreciated. I grew up in the 60's where every other word uttered was 'man' , 'cool' , 'bitchin!' etc. Even Jack Kerouac and Alan Ginsberg, the writers, who wrote for my generation, did not write as if they were talking to another member of the beat generation. Posting to these types of lists can be educational, interesting and fun. Don't spoil it by using terms which are too technical to be understood by the average reader, or too 'street' to understand by the average old guy! dave At 10:40 AM 27/11/2003 -0500, you wrote: >dave morton wrote: > >>I notice the use of html emoticons (i.e. smileys etc) creeping into >>technical discussion lists. Is this now considered good form? >> >>I don't wish to be labelled a curmudgeon, but let's all try to use >>"big boy/big girl" grammar and form. Slang usage such as bein', n e ways >>etc are best left in informal forums such as instant messaging. Turn off >>the html PLEASE. >> >>Dave >> >> >>-- >>The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org >>TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >>How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml >c'mon Dave; as long as the discussion is relevant and the meaning is clear >do you really think there's no room the the writer to use his/her personal >style ? >It's not like our clients are reading this. >You are, IMHO, correct in the attempt to squelch the use of HTML. >(or should I type hypertext markup language .. ?) > >;-) > >djp > >-- >The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org >TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 27 21:34:26 2003 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2003 16:34:26 -0500 (EST) Subject: Looking for Advice In-Reply-To: References: <1227.65.95.217.186.1069966327.squirrel@host.bettermarkets.com> Message-ID: <1445.65.95.217.186.1069968866.squirrel@host.bettermarkets.com> I guess the first thing I should do is to start building a list of firms around the GTA big enough to need support techs and whom use Linux (I want to avoid going back to MS in a big way! :) ). DO you (or anyone else) know of some listing of firms that have partially or fully shifted towards Linux in the area? I can't see why such a list would exist but I guess it doesn't hurt to ask. Madison > On Thu, 27 Nov 2003, Madison Kelly wrote: >> So my question is, how have some of you gone about getting a job when >> you have no paper work but are good at what you do? How do you get a >> given company to even respond to your resume? > > Basically, you have to think "pull" rather than "push": you need somebody > at the company telling the H.R. department "I want to see MK's resume even > if it doesn't look like he's qualified". H.R. departments generally don't > understand technical people but do understand credentials. If you don't > have credentials and aren't well enough known for reputation alone to get > you in the door, you need to develop contacts. > > (Actually, those three cases boil down to two: the reputation seldom does > the job by itself, it just makes it easier to acquire contacts.) > > Henry Spencer > henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From a67582000-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 27 21:45:19 2003 From: a67582000-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Thomas Gibson) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2003 16:45:19 -0500 (EST) Subject: Looking for Advice In-Reply-To: <1227.65.95.217.186.1069966327.squirrel-cSwQExXi3C0g59NOP9PCHBGZ6WaZejjh@public.gmane.org> References: <1227.65.95.217.186.1069966327.squirrel@host.bettermarkets.com> Message-ID: <20031127214519.26827.qmail@web10306.mail.yahoo.com> Madison, As for job prospects, it is a tough time but I can tell you that in 9 time out of 10 you are going to secure a job based on your face-to-face skills both to secure an interview and subsequently to get hired. Try to make direct contact with prospective companies even if they say no calls. Also, try contacting companies networking for information(ie. not looking for immediate employment). If you don't front immediately as looking for employment they can't reject you immediately and you will probably learn something along the way. Having worked for the last ~8 years in various software/systems development settings I can tell you its not all its cracked up to be. I am trying to head in the other direction(small business, consulant?) but I'm not sure of the details. A group of TLUGers had made some motions in the spring about creating an open source consultancy group but that sorta lost steam. If you have any insights to give, want an opinion(, etc) email me. What is your background/interests other than what you mentioned? --- Madison Kelly wrote: > Hi everyone, > > I have a question that I am hoping someone here > has worked through. > > I decided that, given some stuff going on right > now, that I should > really try getting a job to get some steady income > for a bit. The > problem I am facing though, as I am guessing others > here have faced is, > how do you get a job when you are self taught? The > only place I have > worked in the past outside of my own company was, > strangly enough, > teaching evening courses at George Brown :). > > So my question is, how have some of you gone about > getting a job when > you have no paper work but are good at what you do? > How do you get a > given company to even respond to your resume? I have > sent out quite a > large number of resumes but so far I only got one > interview. For what it > is worth; I have been actively building, > troubleshooting and supporting > PC systems since '97 (under windows and linux). > > Anyway, if nothing else take this as an exasperted > rant :). > > Madison > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: > http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text > below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From taavi-LbuTpDkqzNzXI80/IeQp7B2eb7JE58TQ at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 27 21:55:38 2003 From: taavi-LbuTpDkqzNzXI80/IeQp7B2eb7JE58TQ at public.gmane.org (Taavi Burns) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2003 16:55:38 -0500 Subject: Looking for Advice In-Reply-To: <1227.65.95.217.186.1069966327.squirrel-cSwQExXi3C0g59NOP9PCHBGZ6WaZejjh@public.gmane.org> References: <1227.65.95.217.186.1069966327.squirrel@host.bettermarkets.com> Message-ID: <20031127215538.GF5934@hatefulsheep.ym.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> On Thu, Nov 27, 2003 at 03:52:07PM -0500, Madison Kelly wrote: > problem I am facing though, as I am guessing others here have faced is, > how do you get a job when you are self taught? The only place I have A good point raised at a "Meet a CompE" night at my university was that life experience is good work experience, if put in the right light. The lack of experience is a big stumbling block for a lot of students who did not take part in a co-op or IIP program. One former student apparently worked as a beekeeper for a few summers, quite apart from his Engineering studies. The spin on this is that he works well under stress; he doesn't crack up or lose his cool. This is highly desirable in volatile customer situations. My mother also had to rummage around a bit when going back to school for her Masters, and then getting a job as a Librarian, after doing "nothing" but looking after the kids for the previous 16 years or so. She did have outside interests, activities, and responsibilities, though (La Leche League leader, and ran a daycare like thing out of our house for other kids our ages who attended the local elementary school with us). Hence she had plenty of experience working with people in semi-professional situations, and to keep track of a bunch of kids, and keep the books in order for income tax purposes. Be creative. :) -- taa /*eof*/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From kmastin-PzQIwG9Jn9VAFePFGvp55w at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 27 22:24:11 2003 From: kmastin-PzQIwG9Jn9VAFePFGvp55w at public.gmane.org (Keith Mastin) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2003 17:24:11 -0500 (EST) Subject: Confused as Chris Griffin In-Reply-To: <001701c3b515$8480cc80$0301a8c0-vAnPq90cUBg@public.gmane.org> References: <001701c3b515$8480cc80$0301a8c0@amazon> Message-ID: <3942.216.138.194.32.1069971851.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> Hi Teddy, Good questions. :) > Q1 > FORWARD chain "are for packets destined for other hosts" > Well, why am I recieving packets that arent meant for me? The firewall will accept anything first ACCEPT'ed, then not DROP'ed (I am assuming iptables here since you didn't specify). Only accept from the Internet for your external IP or anything that results from a valid request coming from your LAN. Use the Ack and Syn flags (ESTABLISHED) for that. > Why can I just DROP all packets recieved on the FORWARD chain? You can. For ex., you generally don't need any forward chains on most clients. Only the firewall and routing machines really should be forwarding. > What exactly is the FORWARD chains function ? To accept on one interface and pass it through another interface to the destination host. > Q2 > INPUT chain is for packets destined for our local machine. > Do these packets originate from Internet and all my LAN hosts? They can originate anywhere. > Q3 > OUTPUT chain is for packets generated locally, now leaving. > Is this just for the Linux "lo" interface? No. If you want to browse a web page from a client, For ex., you send request packets out through the interface to the firewall, where it NATs the packets, etc. etc. These are sent on the OUTPUT chain. > What about the local LAN interface and all my LAN hosts? Set up the LAN hosts so their default gateway is the internal (LAN) interface on the firewall. the firewall should then NAT them and send them on. Read the neworking3 and the iptables howtos. They give a good 10,000 foot overview of how it all works so you can have an overall perspective of your network as an entity and as a part of the Internet. HTH -- Keith Mastin BeechTree Information Technology Services Inc. Toronto, Canada (416)429 9304 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 27 22:59:31 2003 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2003 17:59:31 -0500 Subject: use of html now acceptable ? In-Reply-To: <3FC61AF7.7000608-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FC5F773.7000404@ilap.com> <3FC61AF7.7000608@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <3FC681D3.2020505@rogers.com> David J Patrick wrote: > dave morton wrote: > >> I notice the use of html emoticons (i.e. smileys etc) creeping into >> technical discussion lists. Is this now considered good form? >> >> I don't wish to be labelled a curmudgeon, but let's all try to use >> "big boy/big girl" grammar and form. Slang usage such as bein', n e >> ways etc are best left in informal forums such as instant messaging. >> Turn off the html PLEASE. >> >> Dave >> >> >> -- >> The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org >> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml >> > c'mon Dave; as long as the discussion is relevant and the meaning is clear > do you really think there's no room the the writer to use his/her > personal style ? > It's not like our clients are reading this. > You are, IMHO, correct in the attempt to squelch the use of HTML. > (or should I type hypertext markup language .. ?) Some people's "style" make the message almost unreadable. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 27 23:05:25 2003 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2003 18:05:25 -0500 Subject: GUI In-Reply-To: <20031127175739.GA447-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20031127175739.GA447@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <3FC68335.3090805@rogers.com> William Park wrote: > On Thu, Nov 27, 2003 at 09:40:30AM -0500, Hugh Reilly wrote: > >>Good morning all! >> >>Quick question. Which is better, KDE or GNOME? Or is there something >>better? Don't really wanna hear about those lesser "windows managers" >>whatevers. I'm looking for state-of-the-art GUI paradise. > > > Windows is way better and original. KDE/GNOME are bad copy of it, but > they do what you would expect them to do. So, it depends on who you are > selling it to. > Windows??? Original??? Don't you recall the lawsuit, when they imitated the Mac desktop? GUIs didn't even originate with Apple. They were invented at Xerox, which Apple then borrowed for the Mac. As far as desktops go, the best by far is the workplace shell in OS/2. There's not another desktop that comes anywhere near it's capabilities. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From pmills-5bG9SNWDbRX3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 27 23:14:31 2003 From: pmills-5bG9SNWDbRX3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Phillip Mills) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2003 18:14:31 -0500 Subject: Looking for Advice In-Reply-To: <1227.65.95.217.186.1069966327.squirrel-cSwQExXi3C0g59NOP9PCHBGZ6WaZejjh@public.gmane.org> References: <1227.65.95.217.186.1069966327.squirrel@host.bettermarkets.com> Message-ID: <74D1E569-212F-11D8-ACA4-00039310151E@axxent.ca> On Thursday, November 27, 2003, at 03:52 PM, Madison Kelly wrote: > So my question is, how have some of you gone about getting a job when > you have no paper work but are good at what you do? I hope this doesn't cause depression, but I'm discovering that the current market is exceptionally tough even when you *have* the paper work and are good at what you do. It seems that most jobs are being obtained right now (in IT) through personal contacts rather than through open competition. Anyone you know or meet may know someone who is hiring, and having that up-front reference is likely a better "wedge" than any amount of certification or experience. If you have clients who are happy with you, try them for leads...all of them! Do any of the people you've met through George Brown know anybody? > How do you get a > given company to even respond to your resume? It's a buyer's market, so they don't see any need to be polite. Good luck. ...and if you find someone looking for software design and development skills, let me know. :-) ........................ Phillip Mills Multi-platform software development (416) 224-0714 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 27 23:12:02 2003 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2003 18:12:02 -0500 Subject: GUI In-Reply-To: <20031127193718.GA867-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20031127175739.GA447@node1.opengeometry.net> <3FC6401C.4090709@alteeve.com> <20031127193718.GA867@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <3FC684C2.90508@rogers.com> William Park wrote: > On Thu, Nov 27, 2003 at 01:19:08PM -0500, Lance F. Squire wrote: > >>William Park wrote: >> >>>Windows is way better and original. >> >>Original! Hardly. >> >>Mac was first, and even they copyed an old Xerox system most people >>never heard about. >> >>Digital Reserch's GEM enviroment, Primarily on Atari STs though also >>available for the PCs, and Commodore's 'Intuition' were fully functional >>GUI desktops when 'Windows' was little more than a graphical shell for DOS. >> >>I'm sure 'X' predates it also. > > > I had Atari and Mac, and, even then, Windows 3.1 was better. > You mean the same W3.1 where you couldn't nest folders? The same GUI where everything ground to a halt, when you used the floppy? That's better??? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org Thu Nov 27 23:49:05 2003 From: henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org (Henry Spencer) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2003 18:49:05 -0500 (EST) Subject: Looking for Advice In-Reply-To: <74D1E569-212F-11D8-ACA4-00039310151E-5bG9SNWDbRX3fQ9qLvQP4Q@public.gmane.org> References: <74D1E569-212F-11D8-ACA4-00039310151E@axxent.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, 27 Nov 2003, Phillip Mills wrote: > ...It seems that most jobs are being > obtained right now (in IT) through personal contacts rather than > through open competition. Personal contacts make a big difference even in more prosperous times. It's *always* been true that -- except where laws or regulations or union contracts tightly restrict the hiring process -- most good jobs appear on the grapevine well before they show up in the papers, and consequently a lot of them are filled via the grapevine and never even reach the papers. Only during the dot-com bubble were companies so desperate for people that this often didn't happen. Mostly this is just the nature of the process. Someone you're talking to will say "hmm, you know, we're starting to need someone who can do that -- would you be interested if we have an opening?". The word goes out by personal contact well before there has actually been any decision to hire. > If you have clients who are happy with you, try them for leads...all of > them! Do any of the people you've met through George Brown know > anybody? Exactly. Anybody you've already worked with should at least be told that you're looking. Henry Spencer henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Fri Nov 28 00:46:27 2003 From: fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Fraser Campbell) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2003 19:46:27 -0500 Subject: GUI In-Reply-To: <3FC68335.3090805-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <20031127175739.GA447@node1.opengeometry.net> <3FC68335.3090805@rogers.com> Message-ID: <200311271946.27714.fraser@wehave.net> On November 27, 2003 06:05 pm, James Knott wrote: > As far as desktops go, the best by far is the workplace shell in OS/2. > There's not another desktop that comes anywhere near it's capabilities. Really? I bought OS/2 Warp (v3) a while back (I believe 1995) thinking that there might be an alternative to Linux ... I didn't like it that much and so stuck with Linux. To be honest I doubt that I gave it a fair try. What is it about workplace shell that is so good, what is workplace shell? I'm obviously not going to switch to OS/2 now but I'd be interested to look at from an educational perspective if it really had compelling features. -- Fraser Campbell http://www.wehave.net/ Georgetown, Ontario, Canada Debian GNU/Linux -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From rickl-ZACYGPecefkNbK0NzMECUg at public.gmane.org Fri Nov 28 00:47:07 2003 From: rickl-ZACYGPecefkNbK0NzMECUg at public.gmane.org (rickl-ZACYGPecefkNbK0NzMECUg at public.gmane.org) Date: 28 Nov 2003 00:47:07 -0000 Subject: [ToronotNUI] Whats New? Message-ID: <20031128004707.17633.qmail@wm0.netfirms.com> Hi Everyone. Just to keep you up to speed on the workings at NUI. Please help me welcome the Real World Linux committee as our newest members. Real World Linux takes place April 13-15, 2004. They can be reached at: http://www.realworldlinux.com or via http://www.TorontoNUI.ca. The Real World Linux organizers have offered to provide us meeting space during the event and a small area to promote the group. We need members to participate in order to help make our contribution a success. We are in the throes of an election for regional representatatives for Canada. Chris has been re-elected for eastern Canada but It seems the west is detached from the east (Manitoba - BC) and the NUI board wants to represent the west via the US. If you want to provide any input drop myself or Chris Horton a note. We've had some concern expressed by various parties in NUI and local members about the lack of regular meetings. Many feel most of what meetings used to provide is now available on the Internet at http://www.nuinet.com so meetings are no longer of interest. Many US chapters still have regular meetings. Toronto area participation is down. I'd like some feedback on this or send your comments to Chris Horton or directly to the NUI board in Utah. I upgraded my CNE recently to Netware 6. I was amazed to find that the testing center (which I won't name) demanded I surrender my wallet to be locked in a locker by staff while I wrote the test. Anyone else have this experience? Needless to say I was'nt happy. Brainshare 2004 March 21-26, 2004 is gearing up for the registration December 1, 2003. I don't have any discount codes yet so you may want to hold off for now. Novell is in the midst of and exciting period (SuSe, Ximian) and I look forward to what the future holds assuming SCO does'nt put entire free IT world in jail. I went to Las Vegas in August to SCOForum. They seemed somewhat normal... I wish you all the best for a safe and enjoyable holiday season! Rick Tomaschuk - President Toronto Area Novell Users Group ******************************************** Driving Force Technologies Ltd. Rick Tomaschuk Tel: 905-813-3036 Email: rickt-ZACYGPecefkNbK0NzMECUg at public.gmane.org Novell Resource: http://www.TorontoNUI.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Fri Nov 28 00:53:39 2003 From: fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Fraser Campbell) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2003 19:53:39 -0500 Subject: Confused as Chris Griffin In-Reply-To: <3942.216.138.194.32.1069971851.squirrel-16UnNR4aCrhlws70yGkXPA@public.gmane.org> References: <001701c3b515$8480cc80$0301a8c0@amazon> <3942.216.138.194.32.1069971851.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> Message-ID: <200311271953.39118.fraser@wehave.net> On November 27, 2003 05:24 pm, Keith Mastin wrote: > > FORWARD chain "are for packets destined for other hosts" > > Well, why am I recieving packets that arent meant for me? > > The firewall will accept anything first ACCEPT'ed, then not DROP'ed I don't think that statement is completely true. I believe with netfilter that if something is ACCEPTed then the firewalling decision has been made, no subsequent filtering rule could cause it to be dropped. This was a big improvement over the ipchains machinery that processed packets going through a machine in multiple passes. With netfilter it should work like this: - if a rule ACCEPTs a packet then the packet is ACCEPTed regardless of any rules that follow it - if a packet is DROPed then the packet is DROPed regardless of any rules that follow it - if a packet does not match any explicit rule then the policy of the appropriate chain (INPUT, OUTPUT, FORWARD) determines what happens to it -- Fraser Campbell http://www.wehave.net/ Georgetown, Ontario, Canada Debian GNU/Linux -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From kmastin-PzQIwG9Jn9VAFePFGvp55w at public.gmane.org Fri Nov 28 01:05:38 2003 From: kmastin-PzQIwG9Jn9VAFePFGvp55w at public.gmane.org (Keith Mastin) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2003 20:05:38 -0500 (EST) Subject: Confused as Chris Griffin In-Reply-To: <200311271953.39118.fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org> References: <001701c3b515$8480cc80$0301a8c0@amazon> <3942.216.138.194.32.1069971851.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> <200311271953.39118.fraser@wehave.net> Message-ID: <4012.216.138.194.32.1069981538.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> > On November 27, 2003 05:24 pm, Keith Mastin wrote: > >> > FORWARD chain "are for packets destined for other hosts" >> > Well, why am I recieving packets that arent meant for me? >> >> The firewall will accept anything first ACCEPT'ed, then not DROP'ed > > I don't think that statement is completely true. doh! If it's accepted, it gets passed. I dunno exactly what I was thinking. Should have been as soon as it matches a rule then it gets dispached according to the rule, and if no rule matches then the policy applies. I use a DROP policy on everything, so maybe that's where my comment came from. Sorry. -- Keith -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From pmills-5bG9SNWDbRX3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Fri Nov 28 02:19:44 2003 From: pmills-5bG9SNWDbRX3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Phillip Mills) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2003 21:19:44 -0500 Subject: Looking for Advice In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <54DF105B-2149-11D8-B1C5-00039310151E@axxent.ca> On Thursday, November 27, 2003, at 06:49 PM, Henry Spencer wrote: > Personal contacts make a big difference even in more prosperous times. Yes...but my feeling is that the degree to which it's currently true is like a change in kind rather than just a change in emphasis. I've had seven full-time jobs since 1978; five through public processes and two via "insiders". In the past year, the publicly-advertised opportunities have been almost completely dry as far as anything even minimally appealing. I'd also suggest to the O.P., don't just ask your clients whether they know of something suitable, but also whether the people they deal with know of anything...an extra link in the chain, if you will. ........................ Phillip Mills Multi-platform software development (416) 224-0714 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Fri Nov 28 02:35:51 2003 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2003 21:35:51 -0500 Subject: GUI In-Reply-To: <200311271946.27714.fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org> References: <20031127175739.GA447@node1.opengeometry.net> <3FC68335.3090805@rogers.com> <200311271946.27714.fraser@wehave.net> Message-ID: <3FC6B487.5010502@rogers.com> Fraser Campbell wrote: > On November 27, 2003 06:05 pm, James Knott wrote: > > >>As far as desktops go, the best by far is the workplace shell in OS/2. >>There's not another desktop that comes anywhere near it's capabilities. > > > Really? I bought OS/2 Warp (v3) a while back (I believe 1995) thinking that > there might be an alternative to Linux ... I didn't like it that much and so > stuck with Linux. > > To be honest I doubt that I gave it a fair try. What is it about workplace > shell that is so good, what is workplace shell? I'm obviously not going to > switch to OS/2 now but I'd be interested to look at from an educational > perspective if it really had compelling features. > That's a huge question. There are many things in it, that I couldn't do more than scratch the surface. If you're looking to just point and click, any shell will do. The WPS can do so much more, that I don't know where to start. Everything on the desktop is an object, with full properties, which can be use for many things. For example I used to download stuff from Compuserve. In the properties for a file, there's a page for descripton, history etc. When I downloaded a file from Compuserver, the application I used, (Golden Compass) would pull the file.idz from the download, and place the contents in the description box. The download date etc., would be stored in the history and so on. Then you could use the searching capabilities of the WPS to search on the contents of the description, history, access dates and times and much, much more, in about a complex of search as you could imagine. Another nice thing, was the "shadows", which would be similar in concept to hard links in Linux, in that instead of having the "shortcut" as in Windows, the shadow was actually another instance of the original object. This means that changes in one affect all. Also, the object you see on the desktop, is actually part of the attributes of the file, and not a separate file pointing do it, in the way that icons are linked to files in Windows and Linux. This means you avoid the problem you have in Windows, where it's possible to move a file in such a way, that the shortcut loses track of where it is. It would be a whole lot easier to show the things the WPS is capable of than to try and describe them. Also, I have found the multitasking in OS/2 to be better than Linux and far better still than Windows. For example, on my Athlon XP 1700 system with 512 MB, opening Konqueror will interupt the playing of a midi file. I never had such a thing happen in OS/2, even on a 386! One of the things OS/2 users used as an example, was to format a floppy in the background, while doing something else, with little effect from the floppy operation. This compares with the Windows desktop virtually locking up in a similar test. There were features in OS/2, back in 1992, that have still not appeared in Windows. In order to appreciate all the benefits of OS/2, you have to use it a fair bit. And even though I've used it for almost 14 years and even provided 3rd level support at IBM on it, there's still a lot of it, which I haven't used. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From Stan-PAleLrdANoqY+5vIsb+96wC/G2K4zDHf at public.gmane.org Fri Nov 28 01:43:22 2003 From: Stan-PAleLrdANoqY+5vIsb+96wC/G2K4zDHf at public.gmane.org (Stan Witkowski) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2003 20:43:22 -0500 Subject: Looking for Advice In-Reply-To: <1227.65.95.217.186.1069966327.squirrel@host.bettermarkets. com> References: <1227.65.95.217.186.1069966327.squirrel@host.bettermarkets. com> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.2.20031127183909.021942e0@mail.the-wire.com> At 03:52 PM 11/27/03 -0500, you wrote: >I have a question that I am hoping someone here has worked through. Yes, a long time ago! I've worked in the computer field in Toronto for over 30 years. I've had to face questions like these many times: "why do you want to work here when you've run your own business?" and "what guarantee do I have that you won't leave to run your business?" and "so how do you know all of this?" >how do you get a job when you are self taught? You get a job by not making an issue of being self taught. You don't go out of your way to mention what colour your hair is, so treat that the same way. Since you've gone to the trouble of asking the question, it is likely of more concern to you than others. Keep in mind that there are MANY people out there that have NO CLUE how to hire technical people, and hence will insist on formal bits of paper in order to: a) feel good about you b) cover their ass with their management c) "reduce their risk". There is nothing you can do to change their minds, so avoid or ignore them. Note: I use the term "reduce their risk" in quotes akin to: "At the convent we needed someone 100% trustworthy and who would not take advantage of us because we had all of this money but didn't know what to do with it so we figured that a lawyer would be the best bet. We checked his papers carefully (even a QC!), and were pleased when he told us that a lawyer is also an Officer of the Court. He's now awfully hard to reach in Brazil, though." Sister Mary Rose Instead, itemize what you can do *AND* how you can apply it in ways that can benefit the person or company you are applying to. In cover letters, always point out: - how you can contribute to that company's profit through your skill set - you are keenly able to train yourself and others which will reduce or eliminate training costs - you have been running your own business and hence are familiar with cost control measures and have a business positive outlook - I.E. you are not just a nose-to-the-keyboard techie - you have a wide circle of technically knowledgeable friends [ Aside: they just happen to be in this mailing list -Stan.] that you can consult with (at NO charge to your employer) to brainstorm additional solutions >The only place I have >worked in the past outside of my own company was, strangly enough, >teaching evening courses at George Brown :). OK, that counts as outside experience. SOMEONE had to decide that you had the knowledge and experience to be let loose on the students, didn't they? (It's even better if George Brown approached you!) >So my question is, how have some of you gone about getting a job when >you have no paper work but are good at what you do? How do you get a >given company to even respond to your resume? Don't say: "I fixed John Brown's computer. He paid me. We never saw each other again." Do Say: "It was a one-time expense and by optimizing his computer resources I saved John Brown's business!" Don't say: "I have a work table with a computer." Do say: "I've spared no expense in creating my own, fully networked, 24 hour, computer lab in my office!" "I have equipment and resource sharing agreements in place with other business associates. This saves whomever I work for time and money because I am able to leverage other people's equipment and knowledge." [ OK, so perhaps the 24 hour part is because you like running seti-/c8Vce1DTA4 at public.gmane.org If so, DON'T MENTION IT! ] On the "how do we know you will stay?" matter: (true story): In 1983 I had reached the FINAL interview, FINAL question stage for a downtown Toronto trust company for a job that was to become (as my business card later said) "Senior Technical Analyst" responsible for all software planning and installation for a new IBM mainframe that the trust company was about to install. It also meant building a whole computer room, tons of equipment, etc. There was a lot riding on this because it was the company's first *IBM* mainframe, and it was expensive. I was expected to do all of the initial work, and then, upon installation, stay and be chief system administrator. The final interviewer (I think he was at (VP - 1) level) kept harping on my not leaving any time soon if they hired me. Curiously, he had refused any kind of contract, indicating they were for VP and above levels(!!!). The final half dozen questions varied in form only, but they were all designed to ask me if I was going to leave soon. [What I didn't know, because I had never run into it before anywhere else, is that this company had had various bad experiences with people doing just that. The record was held by a man just starting on Monday morning who, at the 10:30am break, went "out to the washroom" and never came back. The (record-1) was a man who, on his first day(Monday), went out to lunch and never came back. I think that (record-2) was one full day. None of these people were later reported missing or were abducted by aliens, etc. They just quit while on their feet! ] So, in the really final question he asked, "But what GUARANTEE do we have?" It was that special moment - I felt that everything depended on that one answer. By then I had grown frustrated and irritated with the whole process - the company was making no promises to me, but wanted me to make promises to them. I looked around his office, and out the window to the street below. It just popped out. "See that street...", I said. "A few minutes after this interview I will be crossing it. If before I do, God suddenly appears to me and GUARANTEES that I will be able to do so safely, then I'll instantly come back up here and give you the same guarantee." There was a long pause. **** We just sat there looking at each other. It could have gone either way! A moment later he laughed and asked me if I could start on Monday. [The installation came in early and under budget. For many long hours of extra work I got a letter of commendation and a thank you. That was it.] My point: Sometimes there is NOTHING you can say to tell them what they want to hear - it's the luck of the draw. Look at the newsgroup tor.jobs and various job web sites. You'll see people with all kinds of paperwork and backgrounds, even MBAs, looking for work. Finally: In my experience, who you know matters a LOT more than what you know. Given a choice between learning some new tech stuff or schmoozing with (gasp) lawyers, I'd take the lawyers any day. I know this NOW - I just wish I had known it 20 - 30 years ago! Stan. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Fri Nov 28 02:48:53 2003 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2003 21:48:53 -0500 Subject: GUI In-Reply-To: <3FC6B487.5010502-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <20031127175739.GA447@node1.opengeometry.net> <3FC68335.3090805@rogers.com> <200311271946.27714.fraser@wehave.net> <3FC6B487.5010502@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20031128024853.GA437@node1.opengeometry.net> On Thu, Nov 27, 2003 at 09:35:51PM -0500, James Knott wrote: > There were features in OS/2, back in 1992, that have still not > appeared in Windows. > > In order to appreciate all the benefits of OS/2, you have to use it a > fair bit. And even though I've used it for almost 14 years and even > provided 3rd level support at IBM on it, there's still a lot of it, > which I haven't used. If it's so good, then why couldn't IBM sell it? Could it be that what you're describing (ie. rearranging things on desktop) has nothing to do with real productivity in workplace, ie. by secretarial letters, mom/pop small business accounting, students essays, executive presentation, etc.? -- William Park, Open Geometry Consulting, Linux solution for data management and processing. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lance-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Fri Nov 28 03:03:28 2003 From: lance-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Lance F. Squire) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2003 22:03:28 -0500 Subject: GUI References: <20031127175739.GA447@node1.opengeometry.net> <3FC68335.3090805@rogers.com> <200311271946.27714.fraser@wehave.net> <3FC6B487.5010502@rogers.com> <20031128024853.GA437@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <3FC6BB00.5030309@alteeve.com> William Park wrote: > If it's so good, then why couldn't IBM sell it? Could it be that what > you're describing (ie. rearranging things on desktop) has nothing to do > with real productivity in workplace, ie. by secretarial letters, mom/pop > small business accounting, students essays, executive presentation, etc.? > Um... Those are Programs that run ON the desktop. They are NOT the Desktop or OS! Stick to the subject. Lance -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lists-Gb8Tj4xcA4YgsBAKwltoeQ at public.gmane.org Fri Nov 28 04:33:46 2003 From: lists-Gb8Tj4xcA4YgsBAKwltoeQ at public.gmane.org (Byron Q. Desnoyers Winmill) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2003 23:33:46 -0500 (EST) Subject: Looking for Advice In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.2.20031127183909.021942e0-ZEWhMxyTXSNv1tLSo3TydwC/G2K4zDHf@public.gmane.org> References: <5.2.1.1.2.20031127183909.021942e0@mail.the-wire.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 27 Nov 2003, Stan Witkowski wrote: > Do say: > "I've spared no expense in creating my own, fully networked, > 24 hour, computer lab in my office!" So that is what the loopback interface is for ... Try to avoid over representing yourself. It will make it more difficult to get your foot in the door, but honest counts for something. Byron. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From taavi-LbuTpDkqzNzXI80/IeQp7B2eb7JE58TQ at public.gmane.org Fri Nov 28 03:13:50 2003 From: taavi-LbuTpDkqzNzXI80/IeQp7B2eb7JE58TQ at public.gmane.org (Taavi Burns) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2003 22:13:50 -0500 Subject: GUI In-Reply-To: <3FC6B487.5010502-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <20031127175739.GA447@node1.opengeometry.net> <3FC68335.3090805@rogers.com> <200311271946.27714.fraser@wehave.net> <3FC6B487.5010502@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20031128031350.GH5934@hatefulsheep.ym.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> Coming from having bought my first Mac last December, and run OS/2 Warp 3 back in 1997 (would have run Warp 4, but I had only 8MB of RAM on my 486!)... On Thu, Nov 27, 2003 at 09:35:51PM -0500, James Knott wrote: > click, any shell will do. The WPS can do so much more, that I don't > know where to start. Everything on the desktop is an object, with full > properties, which can be use for many things. For example I used to Like the resource fork of each file on an HFS partition. (cf OS/2 Extended Attributes on HPFS partitions) > download stuff from Compuserve. In the properties for a file, there's a > page for descripton, history etc. When I downloaded a file from > Compuserver, the application I used, (Golden Compass) would pull the > file.idz from the download, and place the contents in the description > box. The download date etc., would be stored in the history and so on. I can see this being done via the preview pane in the Finder. It's not by default, but I don't see why it couldn't be. > Then you could use the searching capabilities of the WPS to search on > the contents of the description, history, access dates and times and > much, much more, in about a complex of search as you could imagine. Yup. Nice thing about 'find', and the Finder in their respective environments. > Another nice thing, was the "shadows", which would be similar in concept > to hard links in Linux, in that instead of having the "shortcut" as in > Windows, the shadow was actually another instance of the original > object. This means that changes in one affect all. Also, the object Macs have had this for a LONG time in the form of 'alias'es. Links with referential integrity. > you see on the desktop, is actually part of the attributes of the file, > and not a separate file pointing do it, in the way that icons are linked > to files in Windows and Linux. This means you avoid the problem you I imagine this information can be stored in the resource fork on OSX, though generally the icon matches the Creator Code or file type (I don't actually know which...) specified for the file (has nothing to do with the file's name; I imagine this information is in the resource fork). > have in Windows, where it's possible to move a file in such a way, that > the shortcut loses track of where it is. That always bugged me. :) > It would be a whole lot easier to show the things the WPS is capable of > than to try and describe them. Yup. > Also, I have found the multitasking in OS/2 to be better than Linux and > far better still than Windows. For example, on my Athlon XP 1700 system > with 512 MB, opening Konqueror will interupt the playing of a midi file. > I never had such a thing happen in OS/2, even on a 386! One of the Cool! :) > things OS/2 users used as an example, was to format a floppy in the > background, while doing something else, with little effect from the > floppy operation. This compares with the Windows desktop virtually > locking up in a similar test. Linux tends to come out pretty well on this test, too. OSX performs as well as Linux from process to process, but the Finder is still a little on the single-threaded side sometimes. > There were features in OS/2, back in 1992, that have still not appeared > in Windows. Such as? > In order to appreciate all the benefits of OS/2, you have to use it a > fair bit. And even though I've used it for almost 14 years and even > provided 3rd level support at IBM on it, there's still a lot of it, > which I haven't used. Sounds about right. Same is true for Windows, too, though, I'm sure. It gets used in the strangest of places...like ATMs. Then again, so does OS/2. Guess which ATMs tend to crash? ;) For all the praise you've placed on OS/2, I do suggest you have a look at OSX as a modern implementation. No, it probably won't match up to the industrial strength of OS/2, but it's probably the closest modern equivalent, and 10 times more UNIXy. ;) Quite a shame that OS pre-X lasted so long in its singletasking hole. -- taa /*eof*/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org Fri Nov 28 03:21:59 2003 From: henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org (Henry Spencer) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2003 22:21:59 -0500 (EST) Subject: GUI In-Reply-To: <20031128024853.GA437-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20031128024853.GA437@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 27 Nov 2003, William Park wrote: > > There were features in OS/2, back in 1992, that have still not > > appeared in Windows... > > If it's so good, then why couldn't IBM sell it? Utter, total, repeated and compounded, planning and marketing ineptness. Chapman's "In Search of Stupidity" has a whole chapter on the OS/2 disaster: + too much time and effort wasted on silly mainframe-compatibility features + the decision to bring out an initial non-GUI version to help market the PS/2 machines + grossly excessive prices for OS/2 itself and (even more important) the development kit + no cooperation with third-party software builders to get key applications in place + no attempt to exploit the opportunity to bundle it with a memory upgrade (OS/2 needed lots, and memory prices had just jumped... but IBM was one of the world's biggest memory makers) + no cooperation with third-party hardware builders (so the initial GUI release couldn't run most people's printers!) + rumors that the API might change radically with integration of NeXTStep + failure to exploit the good-quality OS/2 applications built by IBM's Desktop Software division + a lost opportunity to bring Microsoft to heel by exploiting the agreement between the two companies in IBM's favor + misguided attempts to be Windows compatible + more rumors of radical changes impending + a marketing campaign grossly botched after Paramount objected to the use of Star Trek themes without permission + IBM's CEO says it's too late to "go after the desktop" + the coup de grace: IBM's OS/2 boss says he will put Windows 95 on his own home machines when it appears Henry Spencer henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lists-Gb8Tj4xcA4YgsBAKwltoeQ at public.gmane.org Fri Nov 28 04:55:59 2003 From: lists-Gb8Tj4xcA4YgsBAKwltoeQ at public.gmane.org (Byron Q. Desnoyers Winmill) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2003 23:55:59 -0500 (EST) Subject: GUI In-Reply-To: <3FC6B487.5010502-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <20031127175739.GA447@node1.opengeometry.net> <3FC68335.3090805@rogers.com> <200311271946.27714.fraser@wehave.net> <3FC6B487.5010502@rogers.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 27 Nov 2003, James Knott wrote: > The WPS can do so much more, that I don't know where to start. I will differ with you by claiming the WPS wasn't very exciting if you stuck to the stock shell. The great part about the WPS was that third party developers could extend it: if you want a trash can, inherit the properties of a folder then add a few more. You have already extended the folder with another vendor's product? Your trash can will inherit those properties too. Alas, most of those extensions came late in the game. There was little to entice new users to switch from Windows. > I have found the multitasking in OS/2 to be better than Linux and far > better still than Windows. Since I haven't used OS/2 in years, I don't have a good comparison. I do recall having some fun with a friend: the two of us played a video while launching a large application. The then new Windows 95 couldn't handle it on a fully loaded Pentium 166. OS/2, on my 486 DX-50, skipped a few frames but the audio was continuous. I never tried comparing it to Linux. In those days, Linux could do a fraction of what OS/2 or Windows could. Oddly enough, Linux was plenty for my needs. As for why it failed: Microsoft could sell people on upgrading their machines for this fantastic new product (ie. Windows 95). IBM couldn't do the same. Byron. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lists-Gb8Tj4xcA4YgsBAKwltoeQ at public.gmane.org Fri Nov 28 05:06:45 2003 From: lists-Gb8Tj4xcA4YgsBAKwltoeQ at public.gmane.org (Byron Q. Desnoyers Winmill) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 00:06:45 -0500 (EST) Subject: GUI In-Reply-To: <20031128031350.GH5934-9xiANKxwco42bRTacqR3/JR8nzhMnQZF/mqnPsBvoffFpvyHdVPjngC/G2K4zDHf@public.gmane.org> References: <20031127175739.GA447@node1.opengeometry.net> <3FC68335.3090805@rogers.com> <200311271946.27714.fraser@wehave.net> <3FC6B487.5010502@rogers.com> <20031128031350.GH5934@hatefulsheep.ym.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 27 Nov 2003, Taavi Burns wrote: > For all the praise you've placed on OS/2, I do suggest you have a look > at OSX as a modern implementation. No, it probably won't match up > to the industrial strength of OS/2, but it's probably the closest modern > equivalent, and 10 times more UNIXy. ;) Quite a shame that OS pre-X > lasted so long in its singletasking hole. I've been wondering how the OS X Finder compares to the WPS, but haven't had the desire to wade through Apple's documentation. Older versions of the Macintosh system software had their qualities, and I keep a few System 7.1 machines to prove it. ;) As for Unixy operating systems: OS/2 fared quite well because of EMX. That is to say that a lot of applications were ported, including XFree86. Byron. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Fri Nov 28 03:55:00 2003 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2003 22:55:00 -0500 Subject: GUI In-Reply-To: <20031128031350.GH5934-9xiANKxwco42bRTacqR3/JR8nzhMnQZF/mqnPsBvoffFpvyHdVPjngC/G2K4zDHf@public.gmane.org> References: <20031127175739.GA447@node1.opengeometry.net> <3FC68335.3090805@rogers.com> <200311271946.27714.fraser@wehave.net> <3FC6B487.5010502@rogers.com> <20031128031350.GH5934@hatefulsheep.ym.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> Message-ID: <20031128035500.GA770@node1.opengeometry.net> On Thu, Nov 27, 2003 at 10:13:50PM -0500, Taavi Burns wrote: > For all the praise you've placed on OS/2, I do suggest you have a look > at OSX as a modern implementation. No, it probably won't match up > to the industrial strength of OS/2, but it's probably the closest modern > equivalent, and 10 times more UNIXy. ;) Quite a shame that OS pre-X > lasted so long in its singletasking hole. If OS/2 is that good, then maybe IBM will repackage it someday. I suspect that the fact that OS/2 is for Intel's CPU has some bearing. Maybe, IBM will sell it to China/India on PowerPC platform. -- William Park, Open Geometry Consulting, Linux solution for data management and processing. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From wmcgilvery-6d3DWWOeJtE at public.gmane.org Fri Nov 28 04:11:30 2003 From: wmcgilvery-6d3DWWOeJtE at public.gmane.org (Wil McGilvery) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2003 23:11:30 -0500 Subject: Looking for Advice Message-ID: <65B7B304AA3DE147BBD33938FE204E28319196@lynchmail.lynch.msft> Getting a job these days is more about who you know. You are more likely to get a job through a friend of a friend than responding to a job posting. I may be a little off but I think only 15% of jobs are actually advertised and sending resumes to companies that aren't looking are a low percentage long shot. Go tell everyone you know that you are looking for a job or better yet go tell every one you meet that you are looking for a job. This is especially true since you have "no papers". A reference will get you in the door and then go sell yourself from there. Regards, Wil McGilvery Manager Lynch Digital Media Inc 416-744-7949 416-716-3964 (cell) 1-866-314-4678 416-744-0406? FAX www.LynchDigital.com -----Original Message----- From: Madison Kelly [mailto:linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org] Sent: Thursday, November 27, 2003 3:52 PM To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Subject: [TLUG]: Looking for Advice Hi everyone, I have a question that I am hoping someone here has worked through. I decided that, given some stuff going on right now, that I should really try getting a job to get some steady income for a bit. The problem I am facing though, as I am guessing others here have faced is, how do you get a job when you are self taught? The only place I have worked in the past outside of my own company was, strangly enough, teaching evening courses at George Brown :). So my question is, how have some of you gone about getting a job when you have no paper work but are good at what you do? How do you get a given company to even respond to your resume? I have sent out quite a large number of resumes but so far I only got one interview. For what it is worth; I have been actively building, troubleshooting and supporting PC systems since '97 (under windows and linux). Anyway, if nothing else take this as an exasperted rant :). Madison -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lists-Gb8Tj4xcA4YgsBAKwltoeQ at public.gmane.org Fri Nov 28 05:50:46 2003 From: lists-Gb8Tj4xcA4YgsBAKwltoeQ at public.gmane.org (Byron Q. Desnoyers Winmill) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 00:50:46 -0500 (EST) Subject: GUI In-Reply-To: <20031128035500.GA770-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20031127175739.GA447@node1.opengeometry.net> <3FC68335.3090805@rogers.com> <200311271946.27714.fraser@wehave.net> <3FC6B487.5010502@rogers.com> <20031128031350.GH5934@hatefulsheep.ym.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> <20031128035500.GA770@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 27 Nov 2003, William Park wrote: > If OS/2 is that good, then maybe IBM will repackage it someday. I > suspect that the fact that OS/2 is for Intel's CPU has some bearing. > Maybe, IBM will sell it to China/India on PowerPC platform. It has been repackaged by a third party (eCS), and I think that IBM tried it too (WSoD). IIRC, the PowerPC version is pre-Warp 4 -- which means that it is rather old. It was also scarce, which suggests that little software is available for it. Byron. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From rufmetal-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org Fri Nov 28 04:28:56 2003 From: rufmetal-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org (Chris Keelan) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2003 23:28:56 -0500 Subject: Looking for Advice In-Reply-To: <1227.65.95.217.186.1069966327.squirrel-cSwQExXi3C0g59NOP9PCHBGZ6WaZejjh@public.gmane.org> References: <1227.65.95.217.186.1069966327.squirrel@host.bettermarkets.com> Message-ID: <20031127232856.649fe191.rufmetal@eol.ca> On Thu, 27 Nov 2003 15:52:07 -0500 (EST) "Madison Kelly" wrote: > So my question is, how have some of you gone about getting a job > when > you have no paper work but are good at what you do? How do you get a > given company to even respond to your resume? I have sent out quite a > large number of resumes but so far I only got one interview. For what > it is worth; I have been actively building, troubleshooting and > supporting PC systems since '97 (under windows and linux). Madison, Seriously consider getting a copy of "What color is your parachute?" from the library. The section on networking, while completely overlooking TCP/IP ;o), does give some great ideas about how to establish contacts, conduct informational interviews and identify "hidden" job opportunities. ~ C -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lists-Gb8Tj4xcA4YgsBAKwltoeQ at public.gmane.org Fri Nov 28 06:13:46 2003 From: lists-Gb8Tj4xcA4YgsBAKwltoeQ at public.gmane.org (Byron Q. Desnoyers Winmill) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 01:13:46 -0500 (EST) Subject: Debian Updates In-Reply-To: <3529.216.138.194.32.1069953384.squirrel-16UnNR4aCrhlws70yGkXPA@public.gmane.org> References: <3FBFB82A.9000404@enoreo.on.ca><20031122163208.0d02c014.joehill@sympatico.ca><200311230011.27158.fraser@wehave.net><20031123061550.79f1de57.joehill@sympatico.ca><1372.216.138.194.32.1069809209.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> <20031126053203.38f0447f.joehill@sympatico.ca><1990.216.138.194.32.1069871903.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> <2353.216.138.194.32.1069876797.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> <3529.216.138.194.32.1069953384.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, 27 Nov 2003, Keith Mastin wrote: > I would like to see that the syntax of the gui is 100% correct, that > no 2 lines conflict with each other I'm by no means an expert in GUI configuration tools (since I don't use them), but wouldn't such conflicts be refered to as bugs. > The best that I can remember seeing is for configuring the linux kernel, > and even that could use some fine tuning before it's ready for prime-time > use by non-techie types. I wouldn't have non-techie types configure a kernel. While you may get by with a minimal understanding of hardware, you *will* fail if you don't know your hardware. Besides, it wouldn't qualify on your other criteria: it doesn't handle dependencies properly (at least for PPC kernels). Byron. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From taavi-LbuTpDkqzNzXI80/IeQp7B2eb7JE58TQ at public.gmane.org Fri Nov 28 04:52:59 2003 From: taavi-LbuTpDkqzNzXI80/IeQp7B2eb7JE58TQ at public.gmane.org (Taavi Burns) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2003 23:52:59 -0500 Subject: GUI In-Reply-To: References: <20031127175739.GA447@node1.opengeometry.net> <3FC68335.3090805@rogers.com> <200311271946.27714.fraser@wehave.net> <3FC6B487.5010502@rogers.com> <20031128031350.GH5934@hatefulsheep.ym.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> Message-ID: <20031128045259.GI5934@hatefulsheep.ym.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> On Fri, Nov 28, 2003 at 12:06:45AM -0500, Byron Q. Desnoyers Winmill wrote: > I've been wondering how the OS X Finder compares to the WPS, but haven't > had the desire to wade through Apple's documentation. Older versions of Try it. :) Go to a store and experiment. > the Macintosh system software had their qualities, and I keep a few > System 7.1 machines to prove it. ;) As for Unixy operating systems: > OS/2 fared quite well because of EMX. That is to say that a lot of > applications were ported, including XFree86. OSX IS UNIX, deriving directly from NeXT, FreeBSD, NetBSD, and Mach (sort of all at the same time and from different angles). Panther (10.3) comes with a port of XFree86 4.3.0 that runs quite natively in rooted or rootless mode and has exceptional performance. The whole OS itself is compiled with gcc, which is also provided in the free dev toolkit. Fink is currently available for most of one's open source needs on OSX, with OpenDarwin and Gentoo pitching in for a joint project to unify the three for use under OSX. Whee. :) -- taa /*eof*/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From hughreilly1-PkbjNfxxIARBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Fri Nov 28 04:56:20 2003 From: hughreilly1-PkbjNfxxIARBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Hugh Reilly) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2003 23:56:20 -0500 Subject: GUI Message-ID: Chris, Yes, I'm afraid I was a little naughty! I woke up in a mischievious mood. But I did a good deed to make up for it. (Ask William Park). -Hugh _______________________________________________ Hugh Reilly XEN Technology Group | LinuxLab 600 Bay Street, Suite 405 Toronto ON M5R 1G6 tel: 416-204-9951 fax: 416-204-9723 email: info-2K4XOyu7qTosA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org _______________________________________________ http://www.xen.ca | http://www.linuxlab.ca >From: Chris Aitken >Reply-To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org >To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org >Subject: [TLUG]: GUI >Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2003 13:26:45 -0500 > >Hugh Reilly wrote: > > > Good morning all! > > > > Quick question. Which is better, KDE or GNOME? > >Hugh, > >You are being naughty. You know that is not a "quick question". It's the >spark that lights the flame. : ) > > > > Or is there something better? > > Don't really wanna hear about those lesser "windows managers" whatevers. > >You are really asking for trouble. It looks like I'm going to have to >finally >learn >how to filter out emails by subject - this thread is going to choke my >email. > > >Chris > >-- >The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org >TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus&pgmarket=en-ca&RU=http%3a%2f%2fjoin.msn.com%2f%3fpage%3dmisc%2fspecialoffers%26pgmarket%3den-ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Fri Nov 28 05:36:33 2003 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 00:36:33 -0500 Subject: Looking for Advice In-Reply-To: <20031127214519.26827.qmail-XzhYTgVFpR2A/QwVtaZbd3CJp6faPEW9@public.gmane.org> References: <20031127214519.26827.qmail@web10306.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3FC6DEE1.7050707@alteeve.com> Hi Thomas! I know, and have known, that it is who you know more than what. Trick is, I went to New Bruswick for a while and now most of my contacts have dried up. The people who I do know in the industry are themselves struggling to stay afloat. The one saving grace I have is that I do know I enjoy what I want to do. I've been helping customers, teaching, and most of all designing systems, servers and networks since 1997 (in an official capacity - I've been doing since I was young as a hobby). I guess in a nutshell my best skill is my ability to trouble shoot problems. I came to Toronto to study (of all things) orthotic and prosthetic technology (various body braces and artificial limbs). Because those fields are so small and the problems so varied the majority of the time we were in school was spent learning various ways to look at problems and how to find solutions with whatever is on hand. Kind of hard to quantify, isn't it? :) Madison PS - About the TLUG consulting thing; if there was still interest and resources I would be quite interested. Thomas Gibson wrote: > Madison, > As for job prospects, it is a tough time but I can > tell you that in 9 time out of 10 you are going to > secure a job based on your face-to-face skills both to > secure an interview and subsequently to get hired. > Try to make direct contact with prospective companies > even if they say no calls. Also, try contacting > companies networking for information(ie. not looking > for immediate employment). If you don't front > immediately as looking for employment they can't > reject you immediately and you will probably learn > something along the way. > > Having worked for the last ~8 years in various > software/systems development settings I can tell you > its not all its cracked up to be. I am trying to head > in the other direction(small business, consulant?) but > I'm not sure of the details. A group of TLUGers had > made some motions in the spring about creating an open > source consultancy group but that sorta lost steam. > If you have any insights to give, want an opinion(, > etc) email me. What is your background/interests > other than what you mentioned? > > > > --- Madison Kelly wrote: > Hi > everyone, > >> I have a question that I am hoping someone here >>has worked through. >> >> I decided that, given some stuff going on right >>now, that I should >>really try getting a job to get some steady income >>for a bit. The >>problem I am facing though, as I am guessing others >>here have faced is, >>how do you get a job when you are self taught? The >>only place I have >>worked in the past outside of my own company was, >>strangly enough, >>teaching evening courses at George Brown :). >> >> So my question is, how have some of you gone about >>getting a job when >>you have no paper work but are good at what you do? >>How do you get a >>given company to even respond to your resume? I have >>sent out quite a >>large number of resumes but so far I only got one >>interview. For what it >>is worth; I have been actively building, >>troubleshooting and supporting >>PC systems since '97 (under windows and linux). >> >> Anyway, if nothing else take this as an exasperted >>rant :). >> >>Madison >>-- >>The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: >>http://tlug.ss.org >>TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text >>below 80 columns >>How to UNSUBSCRIBE: > > http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Fri Nov 28 05:44:42 2003 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 00:44:42 -0500 Subject: Looking for Advice In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.2.20031127183909.021942e0-ZEWhMxyTXSNv1tLSo3TydwC/G2K4zDHf@public.gmane.org> References: <5.2.1.1.2.20031127183909.021942e0@mail.the-wire.com> Message-ID: <3FC6E0CA.6060501@alteeve.com> Stan, Of all the very helpful replies so far, this one is probably the most helpful. If for no other reason than a justification of what I have been doing all along, except you put it much more artfully, and well, articulated it at all. What I mean is, I think this is what I have been trying to do but I was letting myself get down about having such a hard time. Anyway, with this in mind I am going to go over my resume again and change some of the wording. Hey, I'm Irish after all. I'm not about to give up now. Your advice is great! Madison Stan Witkowski wrote: > At 03:52 PM 11/27/03 -0500, you wrote: > >> I have a question that I am hoping someone here has worked through. > > > > Yes, a long time ago! > I've worked in the computer field in Toronto for over 30 years. > I've had to face questions like these many times: > "why do you want to work here when you've run your own business?" > and > "what guarantee do I have that you won't leave to run your business?" > and > "so how do you know all of this?" > > > > >> how do you get a job when you are self taught? > > > > You get a job by not making an issue of being self taught. > You don't go out of your way to mention what colour your hair is, > so treat that the same way. > > Since you've gone to the trouble of asking the question, it is likely > of more concern to you than others. > Keep in mind that there are MANY people out there that have NO CLUE > how to hire technical people, and hence will insist on formal > bits of paper in order to: > a) feel good about you > b) cover their ass with their management > c) "reduce their risk". > > There is nothing you can do to change their minds, so avoid or ignore them. > > > Note: I use the term "reduce their risk" in quotes akin to: > "At the convent we needed someone 100% trustworthy and > who would not take advantage of us because we had all of > this money but didn't know what to do with it so we figured > that a lawyer would be the best bet. We checked his papers > carefully (even a QC!), and were pleased when he told us > that a lawyer is also an Officer of the Court. > He's now awfully hard to reach in Brazil, though." > Sister Mary Rose > > > Instead, itemize what you can do *AND* how you can apply it in ways > that can benefit the person or company you are applying to. > > > In cover letters, always point out: > - how you can contribute to that company's profit > through your skill set > - you are keenly able to train yourself and others > which will reduce or eliminate training costs > - you have been running your own business and hence are > familiar with cost control measures and have a business positive > outlook - I.E. you are not just a nose-to-the-keyboard techie > - you have a wide circle of technically knowledgeable friends > [ Aside: they just happen to be in this mailing list -Stan.] > that you can consult with (at NO charge to your employer) > to brainstorm additional solutions > > > >> The only place I have >> worked in the past outside of my own company was, strangly enough, >> teaching evening courses at George Brown :). > > > > OK, that counts as outside experience. > SOMEONE had to decide that you had the knowledge and experience to be > let loose on the students, didn't they? > > (It's even better if George Brown approached you!) > > > > >> So my question is, how have some of you gone about getting a job when >> you have no paper work but are good at what you do? How do you get a >> given company to even respond to your resume? > > > > Don't say: > "I fixed John Brown's computer. He paid me. We never saw each other > again." > > Do Say: > "It was a one-time expense and by optimizing his computer resources > I saved John Brown's business!" > > > Don't say: > "I have a work table with a computer." > > Do say: > "I've spared no expense in creating my own, fully networked, > 24 hour, computer lab in my office!" > "I have equipment and resource sharing agreements in place > with other business associates. This saves whomever I work for > time and money because I am able to leverage other people's > equipment and knowledge." > > > [ OK, so perhaps the 24 hour part is because you like running seti-/c8Vce1DTA4 at public.gmane.org > If so, DON'T MENTION IT! ] > > > On the "how do we know you will stay?" matter: (true story): > In 1983 I had reached the FINAL interview, FINAL question stage > for a downtown Toronto trust company for a job that was to become > (as my business card later said) "Senior Technical Analyst" > responsible for all software planning and installation for > a new IBM mainframe that the trust company was about to install. > It also meant building a whole computer room, tons of equipment, etc. > There was a lot riding on this because it was the company's first > *IBM* mainframe, and it was expensive. > I was expected to do all of the initial work, and then, upon > installation, stay and be chief system administrator. > > The final interviewer (I think he was at (VP - 1) level) > kept harping on my not leaving any time soon if they hired me. > Curiously, he had refused any kind of contract, indicating they > were for VP and above levels(!!!). > The final half dozen questions varied in form only, but they > were all designed to ask me if I was going to leave soon. > [What I didn't know, because I had never run into it before > anywhere else, is that this company had had various bad experiences > with people doing just that. The record was held by a man > just starting on Monday morning who, at the 10:30am break, went > "out to the washroom" and never came back. The (record-1) was a > man who, on his first day(Monday), went out to lunch and > never came back. I think that (record-2) was one full day. > None of these people were later reported missing or were > abducted by aliens, etc. They just quit while on their feet! > ] > > > So, in the really final question he asked, > "But what GUARANTEE do we have?" > > It was that special moment - I felt that everything depended > on that one answer. By then I had grown frustrated and irritated > with the whole process - the company was making no promises to > me, but wanted me to make promises to them. > I looked around his office, and out the window to the street below. > > It just popped out. > > "See that street...", I said. "A few minutes after this interview > I will be crossing it. If before I do, God suddenly appears to me > and GUARANTEES that I will be able to do so safely, then I'll > instantly come back up here and give you the same guarantee." > > > There was a long pause. > **** > > We just sat there looking at each other. > > It could have gone either way! > > A moment later he laughed and asked me if I could start on Monday. > > [The installation came in early and under budget. For many > long hours of extra work I got a letter of commendation and a thank you. > That was it.] > > > My point: > Sometimes there is NOTHING you can say to tell them what they > want to hear - it's the luck of the draw. > Look at the newsgroup tor.jobs > and various job web sites. > You'll see people with all kinds of paperwork and backgrounds, > even MBAs, looking for work. > > Finally: > In my experience, who you know matters a LOT more than what you know. > Given a choice between learning some new tech stuff or > schmoozing with (gasp) lawyers, I'd take the lawyers any day. > > I know this NOW - I just wish I had known it 20 - 30 years ago! > > > Stan. > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Fri Nov 28 11:48:26 2003 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 06:48:26 -0500 Subject: GUI In-Reply-To: <20031128024853.GA437-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20031127175739.GA447@node1.opengeometry.net> <3FC68335.3090805@rogers.com> <200311271946.27714.fraser@wehave.net> <3FC6B487.5010502@rogers.com> <20031128024853.GA437@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <3FC7360A.1040705@rogers.com> William Park wrote: > On Thu, Nov 27, 2003 at 09:35:51PM -0500, James Knott wrote: > >>There were features in OS/2, back in 1992, that have still not >>appeared in Windows. >> >>In order to appreciate all the benefits of OS/2, you have to use it a >>fair bit. And even though I've used it for almost 14 years and even >>provided 3rd level support at IBM on it, there's still a lot of it, >>which I haven't used. > > > If it's so good, then why couldn't IBM sell it? Could it be that what > you're describing (ie. rearranging things on desktop) has nothing to do > with real productivity in workplace, ie. by secretarial letters, mom/pop > small business accounting, students essays, executive presentation, etc.? > You might want to read up on how Microsoft used extortion etc., to force market share. You can find lots of info in books such as Netscape Time, The Microsoft Files, World War 3.0 and of course the trial transcript. One example of this, was when Windows 95 came out, and IBM wanted to sell it on it's systems, along with OS/2, MS refused to let them have W95, until they stopped supporting OS/2. Then there was the bundling, where MS would make computer suppliers pay for a Windows licence on every system sold, even if shipped with a competing OS etc. Do a bit of research and you'll see that's MS dominance had nothing to do with product quality and everything to do with "dirty tricks". How productive would a secretary be, if she has to stop typing a letter, when she's formatting a diskette? That's one example of MS productivity. Also, many of the "innovations" in Windows, were "borrowed" from elsewhere. The desktop is one example. You may also recall the Stacker case, where MS stole their disk compression technology. There are other examples, some of which are mentioned in the above sources. And of course lets not forget the deliberate "incompatibilies" is Windows, which prevented it from working with DR-DOS. All that incompatibility was, was a check to see if it was running on DR-DOS and then crap out with an error message. Bypass that check and it ran fine. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Fri Nov 28 11:52:57 2003 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 06:52:57 -0500 Subject: Looking for Advice In-Reply-To: <65B7B304AA3DE147BBD33938FE204E28319196-49iW0tF5bQXl9+zcyUE9hx1TMoFmMu2o@public.gmane.org> References: <65B7B304AA3DE147BBD33938FE204E28319196@lynchmail.lynch.msft> Message-ID: <3FC73719.9060808@rogers.com> Wil McGilvery wrote: > Getting a job these days is more about who you know. You are more likely to get a job through a friend of a friend than responding to a job posting. > > I may be a little off but I think only 15% of jobs are actually advertised and sending resumes to companies that aren't looking are a low percentage long shot. > > Go tell everyone you know that you are looking for a job or better yet go tell every one you meet that you are looking for a job. > > This is especially true since you have "no papers". A reference will get you in the door and then go sell yourself from there. That certainly helps. About 3 years ago, a friend of mine at Intel gave my name to his manager. I managed to make it all the way through 3 interviews, only to run into a hiring freeze that was imposed just as I was about to be hired. :-( -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Fri Nov 28 12:36:53 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 07:36:53 -0500 Subject: GUI In-Reply-To: <3FC7360A.1040705-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <20031127175739.GA447@node1.opengeometry.net> <3FC68335.3090805@rogers.com> <200311271946.27714.fraser@wehave.net> <3FC6B487.5010502@rogers.com> <20031128024853.GA437@node1.opengeometry.net> <3FC7360A.1040705@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20031128073653.69e20350.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 06:48:26 -0500 James Knott wrote: > You might want to read up on how Microsoft used extortion etc., to force > market share. You can find lots of info in books such as Netscape Time, > The Microsoft Files, World War 3.0 and of course the trial transcript. Have you got a copy of that transcript or a link to it? Save me some Googlin'. -- JoeHill ++ ICQ # 280779813 Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "Reality is what you can get away with." -- Robert Anton Wilson -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From anton-F0u+EriZ6ihBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Fri Nov 28 13:39:29 2003 From: anton-F0u+EriZ6ihBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Anton Markov) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 08:39:29 -0500 Subject: GUI In-Reply-To: <3FC7360A.1040705-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <20031127175739.GA447@node1.opengeometry.net> <3FC68335.3090805@rogers.com> <200311271946.27714.fraser@wehave.net> <3FC6B487.5010502@rogers.com> <20031128024853.GA437@node1.opengeometry.net> <3FC7360A.1040705@rogers.com> Message-ID: <3FC75011.3000905@truxtar.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Excuse me, but I will have to disagree: James Knotty wrote: | You might want to read up on how Microsoft used extortion etc., to force | market share. You can find lots of info in books such as Netscape Time, | The Microsoft Files, World War 3.0 and of course the trial transcript. | One example of this, was when Windows 95 came out, and IBM wanted to | sell it on it's systems, along with OS/2, MS refused to let them have | W95, until they stopped supporting OS/2. Then there was the bundling, | where MS would make computer suppliers pay for a Windows licence on | every system sold, even if shipped with a competing OS etc. Do a bit of | research and you'll see that's MS dominance had nothing to do with | product quality and everything to do with "dirty tricks". I would call that marketing genius. Imagine making a product that would force other companies to say "OS/2 is good, but we want to sell Windows so much that we'll give it up." The companies had every right to refuse the Microsoft deals; they just wouldn't be selling Windows. That is not extortion. | How productive would a secretary be, if she has to stop typing a letter, | when she's formatting a diskette? That's one example of MS | productivity. Also, many of the "innovations" in Windows, were | "borrowed" from elsewhere. The desktop is one example. You may also | recall the Stacker case, where MS stole their disk compression | technology. There are other examples, some of which are mentioned in | the above sources. And of course lets not forget the deliberate | "incompatibilies" is Windows, which prevented it from working with | DR-DOS. All that incompatibility was, was a check to see if it was | running on DR-DOS and then crap out with an error message. Bypass that | check and it ran fine. Now that's a totally different issue. Microsoft products do lack usability at the expense of a good first impression. Then again, if people are willing to buy them, then it's the people that need to change not the software. "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink" ~Anon And for the already-educated there is Linux ... and Mac. - -- Anton Markov <("anton" + "@" + "truxtar" + "." + "com")> GnuPGP Key fingerprint = 5546 A6E2 1FFB 9BB8 15C3 CE34 46B7 8D93 3AD1 44B4 ~ "The difference between insanity and genius is measured only by success." ~ - Some bad guy from 007 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQE/x1ARRreNkzrRRLQRApEUAJ9GZdPbowxaIZTrbUuwlRK/yDJrDACcDcMN yDix5GW4mUylS7RZw0llXqk= =qKc0 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Fri Nov 28 14:04:13 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 09:04:13 -0500 Subject: GUI In-Reply-To: <3FC75011.3000905-F0u+EriZ6ihBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20031127175739.GA447@node1.opengeometry.net> <3FC68335.3090805@rogers.com> <200311271946.27714.fraser@wehave.net> <3FC6B487.5010502@rogers.com> <20031128024853.GA437@node1.opengeometry.net> <3FC7360A.1040705@rogers.com> <3FC75011.3000905@truxtar.com> Message-ID: <20031128090413.69f80873.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 08:39:29 -0500 Anton Markov wrote: > I would call that marketing genius. Imagine making a product that would > force other companies to say "OS/2 is good, but we want to sell Windows > so much that we'll give it up." The companies had every right to refuse > the Microsoft deals; they just wouldn't be selling Windows. That is not > extortion. Whatever you want to call it, it is illegal business practice, something determined quite plainly by courts in several U.S. and international jurisdictions. It doesn't take a genius to be a criminal, just immoral character and a selfish attitude. I see no logic in trying to excuse deliberate market manipulation at the expense of innovation and competition. Did other companies make stupid business decisions by going along with Microsoft's "deals"? Yes. Does that excuse criminal behaviour? No. -- JoeHill ++ ICQ # 280779813 Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness."-- John Kenneth Galbraith -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From pegasoft-40qIwYH5687wQaAp52fGBB2eb7JE58TQ at public.gmane.org Fri Nov 28 14:49:39 2003 From: pegasoft-40qIwYH5687wQaAp52fGBB2eb7JE58TQ at public.gmane.org (dan braun) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 09:49:39 -0500 Subject: Looking for Advice In-Reply-To: <3FC73719.9060808-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <3FC73719.9060808@rogers.com> Message-ID: <000001c3b5be$dcd02cb0$c864a8c0@teknix> Ah yes!! The ole convenient "hiring-freeze" out... That's happened to me a couple of times as well! Dan >That certainly helps. About 3 years ago, a friend of mine at Intel gave >my name to his manager. I managed to make it all the way through 3 >interviews, only to run into a hiring freeze that was imposed just as I >was about to be hired. :-( -- Dan Braun - PegaSoft Canada / CityTV danb.nospam-iRg7kjdsKiH3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From a67582000-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Nov 28 15:40:32 2003 From: a67582000-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Thomas Gibson) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 10:40:32 -0500 (EST) Subject: Looking for Advice In-Reply-To: <3FC6DEE1.7050707-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <3FC6DEE1.7050707@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <20031128154032.21173.qmail@web10306.mail.yahoo.com> > > PS - About the TLUG consulting thing; if there was > still interest and > resources I would be quite interested. adamw-TFO+8aUkJNk at public.gmane.org ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From pmills-5bG9SNWDbRX3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Fri Nov 28 16:18:13 2003 From: pmills-5bG9SNWDbRX3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Phillip Mills) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 11:18:13 -0500 Subject: GUI In-Reply-To: <3FC75011.3000905-F0u+EriZ6ihBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <3FC75011.3000905@truxtar.com> Message-ID: <76EB43AE-21BE-11D8-8EB4-00039310151E@axxent.ca> On Friday, November 28, 2003, at 08:39 AM, Anton Markov wrote: > I would call that marketing genius. There's a fine line between "marketing genius" and unprincipled, parasitic, racketeering...often no line at all. is still my favorite bit of Microsoft "marketing". ........................ Phillip Mills Multi-platform software development (416) 224-0714 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From tim-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Fri Nov 28 16:32:53 2003 From: tim-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Tim Writer) Date: 28 Nov 2003 11:32:53 -0500 Subject: GUI In-Reply-To: References: <20031127175739.GA447@node1.opengeometry.net> <3FC68335.3090805@rogers.com> <200311271946.27714.fraser@wehave.net> <3FC6B487.5010502@rogers.com> Message-ID: "Byron Q. Desnoyers Winmill" writes: > On Thu, 27 Nov 2003, James Knott wrote: > > I have found the multitasking in OS/2 to be better than Linux and far > > better still than Windows. > > Since I haven't used OS/2 in years, I don't have a good comparison. > I do recall having some fun with a friend: the two of us played a video > while launching a large application. The then new Windows 95 couldn't > handle it on a fully loaded Pentium 166. OS/2, on my 486 DX-50, skipped > a few frames but the audio was continuous. I never tried comparing it > to Linux. In those days, Linux could do a fraction of what OS/2 or > Windows could. Yes, the WPS was arguably better integrated than desktops available for Linux (olwm, twm, fvwm) at that time but I'm not convinced that OS/2 could do more. I ran OS/2 2.0 and Linux (SLS w/ kernel 0.98) on a 486/33 w/ 8MB RAM. Linux swapped less and felt much more responsive than OS/2. While the EMX environment for OS/2 was decent, I much preferred the real thing (i.e. Linux, GNU, and other free software). Undoubtably, there were (expensive) applications available for OS/2 that weren't available for Linux but Linux also had functionality and applications that weren't available for OS/2 or simply ran better in a "real" UNIX environment. Since I had a UNIX heritage, Linux proved much more useful to me. -- tim writer starnix inc. 905.771.0017 ext. 225 thornhill, ontario, canada http://www.starnix.com professional linux services & products -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From hgr-FjoMob2a1F7QT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Fri Nov 28 17:11:37 2003 From: hgr-FjoMob2a1F7QT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Herb Richter) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 12:11:37 -0500 (EST) Subject: opensource licensing paper URL from Tuesday's NewTLUG talk Message-ID: Here is the URL of the opensource licensing legal issues paper by Dennis Kennedy that Emir mentioned in his presentation this past Tuesday: http://www.denniskennedy.com/opensourcedmk.pdf Also, as requested, here is Emir's e-mail address: EmirMohammed-U2XT7ciQrQL3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org -- Herb Richter Toronto, Ontario http://PartsAndService.com http://PartsAndService.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From kmastin-PzQIwG9Jn9VAFePFGvp55w at public.gmane.org Fri Nov 28 17:40:20 2003 From: kmastin-PzQIwG9Jn9VAFePFGvp55w at public.gmane.org (Keith Mastin) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 12:40:20 -0500 (EST) Subject: Debian Updates In-Reply-To: References: <3FBFB82A.9000404@enoreo.on.ca><20031122163208.0d02c014.joehill@sympatico.ca><200311230011.27158.fraser@wehave.net><20031123061550.79f1de57.joehill@sympatico.ca><1372.216.138.194.32.1069809209.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> <20031126053203.38f0447f.joehill@sympatico.ca><1990.216.138.194.32.1069871903.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> <2353.216.138.194.32.1069876797.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> <3529.216.138.194.32.1069953384.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> Message-ID: <1864.216.138.194.32.1070041220.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> > > > On Thu, 27 Nov 2003, Keith Mastin wrote: >> I would like to see that the syntax of the gui is 100% correct, that >> no 2 lines conflict with each other > > I'm by no means an expert in GUI configuration tools (since I don't use > them), but wouldn't such conflicts be refered to as bugs. ...or features? My personal favorite gui-bug-thing (just recently found, mind you) is Win-XP-Pro. 2 interfaces on a computer, XP tries to configure the EXT_IFACE for smb requests until I dis-configure (?) it, and only then does it allow smb requests on INT_IFACE. Beauty, eh!. >> The best that I can remember seeing is for configuring the linux kernel, >> and even that could use some fine tuning before it's ready for >> prime-time use by non-techie types. > > I wouldn't have non-techie types configure a kernel. While you may get > by with a minimal understanding of hardware, you *will* fail if you > don't know your hardware. Besides, it wouldn't qualify on your other > criteria: it doesn't handle dependencies properly (at least for PPC > kernels). Stepping away from PPC kernels and such, you're just underpinning my argument. This is the best I've seen (there may be others that I haven't seen) and it's still lacking. -- Keith -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From kmastin-PzQIwG9Jn9VAFePFGvp55w at public.gmane.org Fri Nov 28 18:35:51 2003 From: kmastin-PzQIwG9Jn9VAFePFGvp55w at public.gmane.org (Keith Mastin) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 13:35:51 -0500 (EST) Subject: Looking for Advice In-Reply-To: <20031127232856.649fe191.rufmetal-MwcKTmeKVNQ@public.gmane.org> References: <1227.65.95.217.186.1069966327.squirrel@host.bettermarkets.com> <20031127232856.649fe191.rufmetal@eol.ca> Message-ID: <1892.216.138.194.32.1070044551.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> > So my question is, how have some of you gone about getting a job when > you have no paper work but are good at what you do? How do you get a > given company to even respond to your resume? I have sent out quite a > large number of resumes but so far I only got one interview. For what > it is worth; I have been actively building, troubleshooting and > supporting PC systems since '97 (under windows and linux). I had to answer a stack of tough questions lately, a lot of them centered around owning my own company. My little fiasco here has been bought out, and the buyers came back to me to ask if I could run it for them, but they wanted a bunch of corporately-oriented paperwork on me that doesn't exist, certificates and such. After weeks of shuffling back and forth I told them that if they want me they have to either redesign their criteria or keep looking, because I don't have it. The next round was asking how I could own and manage a company in the black with no certification. I guess they decided that redesigning their criteria was easier than finding a certified unix engineer (they didn't have a clue about what they were asking for, did they?). Answering that question was a lot easier. Getting someone to respond to your resume is impossible unless at gun point. Most wind up in the garbage, and those that don't are arbitrary. If you want yours read, best to hand it to them in person during the interview. Get a little bit of inside knowledge about the company that you pick to work for (work on), and start 'dating' the few that might make a difference in getting you the interview. A well placed bug in the ear from the inside is worth more than any resume. Given this, my own resume is a single sheet with contact info and a summary of skills. I provide more info on request, and haven't had a problem with it. When asked, I just tell them that I've thrown more over-stuffed resumes in the garbage than I could shake a stick at. HR knows that story only too well, and I've gained by getting a summary, small agreement out of them. I do have a method to my madness, having been the person on the other side of the hiring table a few times. The chinese word for crisis is the same as opportunity. Find out what their real problem is that the position is meant to fix, and work on that. Look for new start-ups with some obvious funding and a fairly solid business plan, or older companies changing either ownership or management, or expanding. They are in crisis. Have an attitude. They NEED to hire you. You can work anywhere, so why should you consider working for them? Number 1 reason for employees leaving an operating company for greener grass? Not pay or benefits... it's because the boss is an idiot, so beware. Good luck. -- Keith Mastin BeechTree Information Technology Services Inc. Toronto, Canada (416)429 9304 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From taavi-LbuTpDkqzNzXI80/IeQp7B2eb7JE58TQ at public.gmane.org Fri Nov 28 19:48:27 2003 From: taavi-LbuTpDkqzNzXI80/IeQp7B2eb7JE58TQ at public.gmane.org (Taavi Burns) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 14:48:27 -0500 Subject: GUI In-Reply-To: References: <20031127175739.GA447@node1.opengeometry.net> <3FC68335.3090805@rogers.com> <200311271946.27714.fraser@wehave.net> <3FC6B487.5010502@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20031128194827.GL5934@hatefulsheep.ym.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> On Fri, Nov 28, 2003 at 11:32:53AM -0500, Tim Writer wrote: > Yes, the WPS was arguably better integrated than desktops available for Linux > (olwm, twm, fvwm) at that time but I'm not convinced that OS/2 could do more. > I ran OS/2 2.0 and Linux (SLS w/ kernel 0.98) on a 486/33 w/ 8MB RAM. Linux I believe that everyone referring to OS/2 being wonderful post 1995 would be referring to OS/2 Warp 3 (or one of its variants). In a move totally unlike anything M$ has ever done, Warp 3 took less RAM and ran faster than OS/2 2.x. (I think it did use more disk, though) -- taa /*eof*/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From serge_ss-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Fri Nov 28 22:44:05 2003 From: serge_ss-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (serge_ss-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 17:44:05 -0500 Subject: GUI Message-ID: <20031128224405.UFYI1682.tomts31-srv.bellnexxia.net@smtp.bellnexxia.net> Yeah, sounds true. Although I had to set up the WARP 3 from a tonns of diskettes sometimes back in 94-95, it have managed to run Corel Draw, Word in Windows Emulation mode (well, i am not a pervert but was just testing) and a Watcom C compiler doing a hard work. It all worked decently on 486-33, 16RAM. But the config.sys always made me sad :) Cheers, Sergey > > From: Taavi Burns > Date: 2003/11/28 Fri PM 02:48:27 EST > To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > Subject: Re: [TLUG]: GUI > > On Fri, Nov 28, 2003 at 11:32:53AM -0500, Tim Writer wrote: > > Yes, the WPS was arguably better integrated than desktops available for Linux > > (olwm, twm, fvwm) at that time but I'm not convinced that OS/2 could do more. > > I ran OS/2 2.0 and Linux (SLS w/ kernel 0.98) on a 486/33 w/ 8MB RAM. Linux > > I believe that everyone referring to OS/2 being wonderful post 1995 would be > referring to OS/2 Warp 3 (or one of its variants). In a move totally unlike > anything M$ has ever done, Warp 3 took less RAM and ran faster than OS/2 2.x. > (I think it did use more disk, though) > > > -- > taa > /*eof*/ > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 29 00:45:31 2003 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 19:45:31 -0500 Subject: GUI In-Reply-To: <20031128073653.69e20350.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <20031127175739.GA447@node1.opengeometry.net> <3FC68335.3090805@rogers.com> <200311271946.27714.fraser@wehave.net> <3FC6B487.5010502@rogers.com> <20031128024853.GA437@node1.opengeometry.net> <3FC7360A.1040705@rogers.com> <20031128073653.69e20350.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <3FC7EC2B.5010107@rogers.com> JoeHill wrote: > On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 06:48:26 -0500 > James Knott wrote: > > >>You might want to read up on how Microsoft used extortion etc., to force >>market share. You can find lots of info in books such as Netscape Time, >>The Microsoft Files, World War 3.0 and of course the trial transcript. > > > Have you got a copy of that transcript or a link to it? Save me some Googlin'. > I read through part of it over 3 years ago and gave up. However, it's just the thing if you can't sleep some night. ;-) Also, World War 3.0 covers some of it. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 29 00:47:51 2003 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 19:47:51 -0500 Subject: GUI In-Reply-To: <3FC75011.3000905-F0u+EriZ6ihBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20031127175739.GA447@node1.opengeometry.net> <3FC68335.3090805@rogers.com> <200311271946.27714.fraser@wehave.net> <3FC6B487.5010502@rogers.com> <20031128024853.GA437@node1.opengeometry.net> <3FC7360A.1040705@rogers.com> <3FC75011.3000905@truxtar.com> Message-ID: <3FC7ECB7.5070701@rogers.com> Anton Markov wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > Excuse me, but I will have to disagree: > > James Knotty wrote: > > | You might want to read up on how Microsoft used extortion etc., to force > | market share. You can find lots of info in books such as Netscape Time, > | The Microsoft Files, World War 3.0 and of course the trial transcript. > | One example of this, was when Windows 95 came out, and IBM wanted to > | sell it on it's systems, along with OS/2, MS refused to let them have > | W95, until they stopped supporting OS/2. Then there was the bundling, > | where MS would make computer suppliers pay for a Windows licence on > | every system sold, even if shipped with a competing OS etc. Do a bit of > | research and you'll see that's MS dominance had nothing to do with > | product quality and everything to do with "dirty tricks". > I would call that marketing genius. Imagine making a product that would > force other companies to say "OS/2 is good, but we want to sell Windows > so much that we'll give it up." The companies had every right to refuse > the Microsoft deals; they just wouldn't be selling Windows. That is not > extortion. Read those items I mentioned and then get back to me on that "right" to refuse. You'll find that exercising that right, would cost them dearly. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 29 00:53:18 2003 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 19:53:18 -0500 Subject: Looking for Advice In-Reply-To: <000001c3b5be$dcd02cb0$c864a8c0-da9dYf8AoNY@public.gmane.org> References: <000001c3b5be$dcd02cb0$c864a8c0@teknix> Message-ID: <3FC7EDFE.3090807@rogers.com> It was more than a "hiring-freeze" out. My friend almost got laid off as well. He still has a job with another company, after Intel sold off that particular business line. My friend was originally with Shiva, which Intel bought. Then about 3 years ago, they decided to exit that area. Had I been hired, I would have been working with VPNs. dan braun wrote: > Ah yes!! The ole convenient "hiring-freeze" out... > > That's happened to me a couple of times as well! > > Dan > > > >>That certainly helps. About 3 years ago, a friend of mine at Intel > > gave > >>my name to his manager. I managed to make it all the way through 3 >>interviews, only to run into a hiring freeze that was imposed just as I > > >>was about to be hired. :-( > > > -- > Dan Braun - PegaSoft Canada / CityTV > danb.nospam-iRg7kjdsKiH3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org > > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From tim-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 29 01:25:43 2003 From: tim-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Tim Writer) Date: 28 Nov 2003 20:25:43 -0500 Subject: GUI In-Reply-To: <20031128194827.GL5934-9xiANKxwco42bRTacqR3/JR8nzhMnQZF/mqnPsBvoffFpvyHdVPjngC/G2K4zDHf@public.gmane.org> References: <20031127175739.GA447@node1.opengeometry.net> <3FC68335.3090805@rogers.com> <200311271946.27714.fraser@wehave.net> <3FC6B487.5010502@rogers.com> <20031128194827.GL5934@hatefulsheep.ym.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> Message-ID: Taavi Burns writes: > On Fri, Nov 28, 2003 at 11:32:53AM -0500, Tim Writer wrote: > > Yes, the WPS was arguably better integrated than desktops available for Linux > > (olwm, twm, fvwm) at that time but I'm not convinced that OS/2 could do more. > > I ran OS/2 2.0 and Linux (SLS w/ kernel 0.98) on a 486/33 w/ 8MB RAM. Linux > > I believe that everyone referring to OS/2 being wonderful post 1995 would be > referring to OS/2 Warp 3 (or one of its variants). In a move totally unlike > anything M$ has ever done, Warp 3 took less RAM and ran faster than OS/2 2.x. > (I think it did use more disk, though) Well, I was dumb enough to buy that too based on recommendations of some colleagues. Again, nice to look at but not terribly useful because it didn't come with a host of free applications like Linux. At the time, I was making my living as an independent consultant and programmer working with a variety of UNIX platforms. In that context, the Linux development environment was much more useful than anything (free or otherwise) I could get for OS/2 (or Windows for that matter). -- tim writer starnix inc. 905.771.0017 ext. 225 thornhill, ontario, canada http://www.starnix.com professional linux services & products -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From anton-F0u+EriZ6ihBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 29 03:38:05 2003 From: anton-F0u+EriZ6ihBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Anton Markov) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 22:38:05 -0500 Subject: GUI In-Reply-To: <3FC7ECB7.5070701-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <20031127175739.GA447@node1.opengeometry.net> <3FC68335.3090805@rogers.com> <200311271946.27714.fraser@wehave.net> <3FC6B487.5010502@rogers.com> <20031128024853.GA437@node1.opengeometry.net> <3FC7360A.1040705@rogers.com> <3FC75011.3000905@truxtar.com> <3FC7ECB7.5070701@rogers.com> Message-ID: <3FC8149D.9040006@truxtar.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Hi James and Phillip, I completely understand what you are saying, but I don't see how that is illegal. Let's look at an example... You own a Chrysler dealership. The business has never really picked up as Chryslers are not too popular. One day you get a call from Honda. They offer you their newest, coolest Honda Civic with all the latest bells and whistles (the Civic is considered popular, but a minority of people say it's junk) for a good reseller price. The only condition is that you must become an exclusive Honda dealer. You happen to like Chryslers yourself, and know some people who also do, but you have a family to feed, and you need the extra sales the more popular (although arguably worse) Honda Civics will generate. What do you decide? You take the Honda deal. Now, if you were running the dealership for fun rather than profits, or you believe Chryslers will soon become popular, you can always refuse the offer and keep selling Chryslers... it's up to you. Note: I don't want to start a flame war over cars. Replace Honda and Chrysler with whatever makes you want. It's the point that matters. The whole point of the story is that the supplier has the right to refuse to sell its products. The buyer can also refuse this deal. There is no law stating that you must accept every business deal that comes your way. That is what *free* enterprise is all about - you get to make your own business decisions. If companies are forced to make business decisions they don't want to make, *that* is called extortion. As for the "Halloween Documents", I don't see any problem with what's in ~ them. I completely agree that the open-source model can and does develop better software than closed-source models. As the first memo states: __ In other words, to understand how to compete against OSS, we must target a process rather than a company. { This is a very important insight, one I wish Microsoft had missed. The real battle isn't NT vs. Linux, or Microsoft vs. Red Hat/Caldera/S.u.S.E. -- it's closed-source development versus open-source. The cathedral versus the bazaar.} __ Basically this is a battle between two successful models that is about as ambiguous as arguing whether it's better to take a shower in the morning or in the evening. The real answer is: it depends on your circumstances. Both sides has valid arguments. The other key point of those Halloween articles, is "consumers loose, vendors win." Who are these vendors? Ultimately they are just people like you and me. And although I agree that "By extending these protocols and developing new protocols, we can deny SOS projects entry into the market" is a bad thing, the only ones I would blame if this happened, are the uneducated consumers who buy the products. The purpose of any business is to supply the demand. If there was a large enough demand for polka-dotted cars, you would find dealerships filled with them, even though the idea seems stupid. The whole point is that the ultimate right to accept or refuse a product, service, or any other exchange remains ours. There are plenty of little computer stores that allow one to custom-assemble computers (the pare-built computer models, by the way, are a marketing scam too, because they force people to buy ever faster CPUs when the real answer would be more RAM, a better video card, etc.) and not have any OS installed on it. It may cost you a bit more, sure, but that is because the service is not as popular. In summary, when the law talks about freedoms, it means choices. It does not (or should not) guarantee that there is a choice for everyone that is equally fair. That is utopia. It mearly states that no one can keep you from making choices (ie. they don't come with a gun to your home and say, "buy/do this or else" as they do under communist/fascist regimes). Instead of collecting links that bash Microsoft, lets collect links to the most important open-source project to get involved with out there. If you want to keep proving Microsoft is evil, please use something other than "Microsoft marketing is illegal and Bill Gates is evil." By the way, Bill Gates donates more to charities each month than everyone on this list will probably donate to in 10 years. I hope this cleared some things up. James Knott wrote: | | Read those items I mentioned and then get back to me on that "right" to | refuse. You'll find that exercising that right, would cost them dearly. Phillip Mills wrote: | There's a fine line between "marketing genius" and unprincipled, | parasitic, racketeering...often no line at all. | | is still my favorite bit of | Microsoft "marketing". - -- Anton Markov <("anton" + "@" + "truxtar" + "." + "com")> GnuPGP Key fingerprint = 5546 A6E2 1FFB 9BB8 15C3 CE34 46B7 8D93 3AD1 44B4 ~ "The difference between insanity and genius is measured only by success." ~ - Some bad guy from 007 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQE/yBSdRreNkzrRRLQRAktdAKCEK1psS6QFdykHpwEHO/cgFSem1gCePHWw Uq91b/FEwZf2vca74mFoTXU= =E6fn -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From melseder-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 29 03:58:32 2003 From: melseder-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Mel Seder) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 19:58:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: RealPlayer installed but ... Message-ID: <20031129035832.91804.qmail@web40710.mail.yahoo.com> I installed the RPM and rpm -q RealPlayer returned RealPlayer-8.0-1 My Question: how do I run RealPlayer? ===== The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good. -Samuel Johnson, lexicographer (1709-1784) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 29 04:21:01 2003 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 23:21:01 -0500 Subject: GUI In-Reply-To: <3FC8149D.9040006-F0u+EriZ6ihBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20031127175739.GA447@node1.opengeometry.net> <3FC68335.3090805@rogers.com> <200311271946.27714.fraser@wehave.net> <3FC6B487.5010502@rogers.com> <20031128024853.GA437@node1.opengeometry.net> <3FC7360A.1040705@rogers.com> <3FC75011.3000905@truxtar.com> <3FC7ECB7.5070701@rogers.com> <3FC8149D.9040006@truxtar.com> Message-ID: <3FC81EAD.9030205@rogers.com> Anton Markov wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > Hi James and Phillip, > > I completely understand what you are saying, but I don't see how that is > illegal. Let's look at an example... > > You own a Chrysler dealership. The business has never really picked up > as Chryslers are not too popular. One day you get a call from Honda. > They offer you their newest, coolest Honda Civic with all the latest > bells and whistles (the Civic is considered popular, but a minority of > people say it's junk) for a good reseller price. The only condition is > that you must become an exclusive Honda dealer. You happen to like > Chryslers yourself, and know some people who also do, but you have a > family to feed, and you need the extra sales the more popular (although > arguably worse) Honda Civics will generate. What do you decide? You > take the Honda deal. Now, if you were running the dealership for fun > rather than profits, or you believe Chryslers will soon become popular, > you can always refuse the offer and keep selling Chryslers... it's up to > you. Ever hear of restraint of trade? A bit of history. Back in the early days of the PC, IBM contracted MS to supply DOS, which MS bought from Seattle Computer Products. The deal was IBM sold PC-DOS for IBM gear and MS was free to sell to others. Fair enough. Then MS started pushing Windows and telling computer vendors that if they wanted DOS, they had to include Windows. This is forced bundling. If computer vendors didn't take the deal, they didn't have an OS to sell with their computers. After this had been happening long enough, Windows became "popular" and vendors had to sell it. Then MS started requiring vendors to pay for licences for all computers sold, even those with a competing OS. Imagine if Shell forced the car makers to pay them for the gas in the tank of each new car, even if the gas came from another company. Guess who's gas would be in those tanks? Then, as I mentioned the computer vendors were forced to drop support for other than Windows, if they wished to receive competitive prices for Windows. This is where extortion becomes evident. The sources I listed, include several examples. It got to the point where computer vendors had to play by MS terms or not at all. The result was that any company that tried to offer an alternative was punished in a manner that could put them out of business. There was also the phony "incompatibility" with DR-DOS, that MS deliberately put into Windows 3. There was a similar problem with the MSCDEX CD-ROM drivers, that would check to see if they were being run in OS/2 and then crap out. As I said, read those books and you might have a different view. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From blsonne-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 29 05:31:28 2003 From: blsonne-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Byron Sonne) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 00:31:28 -0500 Subject: RealPlayer installed but ... In-Reply-To: <20031129035832.91804.qmail-pW1lCIDfJjmA/QwVtaZbd3CJp6faPEW9@public.gmane.org> References: <20031129035832.91804.qmail@web40710.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3FC82F30.1000704@rogers.com> > I installed the RPM and rpm -q RealPlayer returned RealPlayer-8.0-1 > My Question: how do I run RealPlayer? Well, I'm not sure what your distro is. I'm running SuSE 8.2 and mine is a binary called 'realplay', here is my path as spat out by the 'which' command: /usr/X11R6/bin/realplay -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 29 06:20:42 2003 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 01:20:42 -0500 Subject: GUI In-Reply-To: <3FC81EAD.9030205-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <20031127175739.GA447@node1.opengeometry.net> <3FC68335.3090805@rogers.com> <200311271946.27714.fraser@wehave.net> <3FC6B487.5010502@rogers.com> <20031128024853.GA437@node1.opengeometry.net> <3FC7360A.1040705@rogers.com> <3FC75011.3000905@truxtar.com> <3FC7ECB7.5070701@rogers.com> <3FC8149D.9040006@truxtar.com> <3FC81EAD.9030205@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20031129062041.GA13992@node1.opengeometry.net> On Fri, Nov 28, 2003 at 11:21:01PM -0500, James Knott wrote: > Ever hear of restraint of trade? [...communist diarrhoea deleted...] > It got to the point where computer vendors had to play by MS terms or > not at all. The result was that any company that tried to offer an > alternative was punished in a manner that could put them out of business. As opposed to toeing IBM's line? You (intentionly or unintentionally) forget that "the bad guy" back then was not Microsoft; rather, it was IBM and Mac, both of which tried their best to squeeze every penny from the users. It was Microsoft who gave out Windows for "free". Windows/DOS is owned by Microsoft, and it can do whatever it wants with it. This includes - putting bugs, incompatibilies, features, and additions. - setting price of software, support, etc. - ... As sole legal owner of Windows/DOS, Bill Gates does not require your approval or blessing in the running of his commerce. It's his right to make money, and it's his right to lose money. Microsoft has no duty or obligation to you or to make your life easier. Maybe you should've attended the last NewbieTLUG presentation. -- William Park, Open Geometry Consulting, Linux solution for data management and processing. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lists-Gb8Tj4xcA4YgsBAKwltoeQ at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 29 06:24:20 2003 From: lists-Gb8Tj4xcA4YgsBAKwltoeQ at public.gmane.org (Byron Desnoyers Winmill) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 01:24:20 -0500 Subject: GUI In-Reply-To: <3FC8149D.9040006-F0u+EriZ6ihBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20031127175739.GA447@node1.opengeometry.net> <3FC68335.3090805@rogers.com> <200311271946.27714.fraser@wehave.net> <3FC6B487.5010502@rogers.com> <20031128024853.GA437@node1.opengeometry.net> <3FC7360A.1040705@rogers.com> <3FC75011.3000905@truxtar.com> <3FC7ECB7.5070701@rogers.com> <3FC8149D.9040006@truxtar.com> Message-ID: <20031129062420.GA6065@pluto.bsdwebhosting.net> On Fri, Nov 28, 2003 at 10:38:05PM -0500, Anton Markov wrote: > The only condition is that you must become an exclusive Honda dealer. I will disagree with this point for a single reason: people should not have the right to sign away their rights. Many laws support this notion, primarily because one party can exploit the needs and desires of another (eg. the Tenant Protection Act). > I would blame if this happened, are the uneducated consumers who buy > the products. I agree, the consumer is to blame for not educating themself. I will also point out that there are entire industries devoted to misleading consumers, and keeping them uneducated (eg. advertising, lawyers). > It does not (or should not) guarantee that there is a choice for > everyone that is equally fair. It may not be able to guarantee that the choice exists, but it should guarantee that somebody can present those choices -- without facing undue discrimination. > Bill Gates donates more to charities each month than everyone on this > list will probably donate to in 10 years. Some people have a hard time seeing Microsoft as a charitable company. IIRC, it didn't make a major charitable contribution until the mid-90's, Some dontations were parts of settlements, and the value of certain contributions (eg. software) don't reflect the cost to Microsoft. Byron. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From kmastin-PzQIwG9Jn9VAFePFGvp55w at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 29 09:20:43 2003 From: kmastin-PzQIwG9Jn9VAFePFGvp55w at public.gmane.org (Keith Mastin) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 04:20:43 -0500 (EST) Subject: GUI In-Reply-To: <20031129062420.GA6065-Ko7VQgJ6otXK2ngFqW3eKNllqMFDOoLF@public.gmane.org> References: <20031127175739.GA447@node1.opengeometry.net> <3FC68335.3090805@rogers.com> <200311271946.27714.fraser@wehave.net> <3FC6B487.5010502@rogers.com> <20031128024853.GA437@node1.opengeometry.net> <3FC7360A.1040705@rogers.com> <3FC75011.3000905@truxtar.com> <3FC7ECB7.5070701@rogers.com> <3FC8149D.9040006@truxtar.com> <20031129062420.GA6065@pluto.bsdwebhosting.net> Message-ID: <2736.216.138.194.32.1070097643.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> > On Fri, Nov 28, 2003 at 10:38:05PM -0500, Anton Markov wrote: >> The only condition is that you must become an exclusive Honda dealer. > > I will disagree with this point for a single reason: people should not > have the right to sign away their rights. Many laws support this notion, > primarily because one party can exploit the needs and desires of another > (eg. the Tenant Protection Act). Just the idea of rights is a limitation on them. We are 'given' rights so they can be taken away. -- Keith -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lloyd-fEEwcc3XMu8jODpR/OX0VQ at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 29 11:29:03 2003 From: lloyd-fEEwcc3XMu8jODpR/OX0VQ at public.gmane.org (Lloyd D Budd) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 06:29:03 -0500 Subject: RealPlayer installed but ... In-Reply-To: <20031129035832.91804.qmail-pW1lCIDfJjmA/QwVtaZbd3CJp6faPEW9@public.gmane.org> References: <20031129035832.91804.qmail@web40710.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1070105343.1213.4.camel@localhost> On Fri, 2003-11-28 at 22:58, Mel Seder wrote: > I installed the RPM and rpm -q RealPlayer returned RealPlayer-8.0-1 > My Question: how do I run RealPlayer? Possibly a good step taken in finding a general solution is to look at the output of: rpm -q --filesbypkg [pkgName] -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 29 12:01:22 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 07:01:22 -0500 Subject: RealPlayer installed but ... In-Reply-To: <3FC82F30.1000704-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <20031129035832.91804.qmail@web40710.mail.yahoo.com> <3FC82F30.1000704@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20031129070122.3301e790.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Sat, 29 Nov 2003 00:31:28 -0500 Byron Sonne wrote: > Well, I'm not sure what your distro is. I'm running SuSE 8.2 and mine is > a binary called 'realplay', here is my path as spat out by the 'which' > command: /usr/X11R6/bin/realplay same here on Mandrake. -- JoeHill ++ ICQ # 280779813 Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "I'm even lethal when I'm unarmed, 'cuz I'm louder than a bomb!" -- Chuck D. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 29 12:08:22 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 07:08:22 -0500 Subject: GUI In-Reply-To: <3FC8149D.9040006-F0u+EriZ6ihBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20031127175739.GA447@node1.opengeometry.net> <3FC68335.3090805@rogers.com> <200311271946.27714.fraser@wehave.net> <3FC6B487.5010502@rogers.com> <20031128024853.GA437@node1.opengeometry.net> <3FC7360A.1040705@rogers.com> <3FC75011.3000905@truxtar.com> <3FC7ECB7.5070701@rogers.com> <3FC8149D.9040006@truxtar.com> Message-ID: <20031129070822.7c292e59.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 22:38:05 -0500 Anton Markov wrote: > I completely understand what you are saying, but I don't see how that is > illegal. It doesn't matter whether *you* see it as illegal or not. Facts are facts. They have already been found guilty, as I said, in several jurisdictions, by varying degrees of "liberal" and "not so liberal" courts, of various and sundry illegal business practices. They have yet, however, to be properly punished . -- JoeHill ++ ICQ # 280779813 Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "True communication is possible only between equals, because inferiors are more consistently rewarded for telling their superiors pleasant lies than for telling the truth."-- The SNAFU Principle -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 29 12:17:25 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 07:17:25 -0500 Subject: GUI In-Reply-To: <20031129062041.GA13992-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20031127175739.GA447@node1.opengeometry.net> <3FC68335.3090805@rogers.com> <200311271946.27714.fraser@wehave.net> <3FC6B487.5010502@rogers.com> <20031128024853.GA437@node1.opengeometry.net> <3FC7360A.1040705@rogers.com> <3FC75011.3000905@truxtar.com> <3FC7ECB7.5070701@rogers.com> <3FC8149D.9040006@truxtar.com> <3FC81EAD.9030205@rogers.com> <20031129062041.GA13992@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <20031129071725.51dbeba5.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Sat, 29 Nov 2003 01:20:42 -0500 William Park wrote: > As sole legal owner of Windows/DOS, Bill Gates does not require your > approval or blessing in the running of his commerce. Actually, yes he does. There are rules we all must play by if Capitalism is to function properly (notice I didn't say "fairly") and not collapse under the weight of monopoly and unbridled avarice. Those rules are determined, hopefully, in the end, by the democratic process, which we are all a part of. This is not radical thinking either, this is stuff Galbraith, Keynes, or even Smith would support, and they were dyed in the wool Capitalists, all of them. -- JoeHill ++ ICQ # 280779813 Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "Where the state begins, individual liberty ceases, and vice versa." -- Bakunin -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 29 12:56:29 2003 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 07:56:29 -0500 Subject: GUI In-Reply-To: <20031129062041.GA13992-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20031127175739.GA447@node1.opengeometry.net> <3FC68335.3090805@rogers.com> <200311271946.27714.fraser@wehave.net> <3FC6B487.5010502@rogers.com> <20031128024853.GA437@node1.opengeometry.net> <3FC7360A.1040705@rogers.com> <3FC75011.3000905@truxtar.com> <3FC7ECB7.5070701@rogers.com> <3FC8149D.9040006@truxtar.com> <3FC81EAD.9030205@rogers.com> <20031129062041.GA13992@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <3FC8977D.4010701@rogers.com> William Park wrote: > On Fri, Nov 28, 2003 at 11:21:01PM -0500, James Knott wrote: > >>Ever hear of restraint of trade? > > > [...communist diarrhoea deleted...] > > >>It got to the point where computer vendors had to play by MS terms or >>not at all. The result was that any company that tried to offer an >>alternative was punished in a manner that could put them out of business. > > > As opposed to toeing IBM's line? You (intentionly or unintentionally) > forget that "the bad guy" back then was not Microsoft; rather, it was > IBM and Mac, both of which tried their best to squeeze every penny from > the users. It was Microsoft who gave out Windows for "free". > > Windows/DOS is owned by Microsoft, and it can do whatever it wants with > it. This includes > - putting bugs, incompatibilies, features, and additions. > - setting price of software, support, etc. > - ... > As sole legal owner of Windows/DOS, Bill Gates does not require your > approval or blessing in the running of his commerce. It's his right to > make money, and it's his right to lose money. Microsoft has no duty or > obligation to you or to make your life easier. Maybe you should've > attended the last NewbieTLUG presentation. > When a company has such control of the market, as MS does, and puts barriers up that make it virtually impossible for a competitor to enter, that's called restraint of trade. IBM, on the other hand, not only allowed MS to sell DOS to others, it also published the BIOS, which allowed others, such as Compaq to build competing systems. And with the main frame systems, where IBM tried to remain proprietary, while certainly the dominant company, they were by no means the only one making main frames. You could go to Univac or GE or ... Further, even back in the 60's there was a line of IBM "clones". These were mil spec systems built by Collins (now part of Rockwell). While the hardware was completely different, they were software compatible with the IBM 360. I used to support them, when they were used as part of the Air Canada reservation system. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 29 13:00:27 2003 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 08:00:27 -0500 Subject: GUI In-Reply-To: <20031129070822.7c292e59.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <20031127175739.GA447@node1.opengeometry.net> <3FC68335.3090805@rogers.com> <200311271946.27714.fraser@wehave.net> <3FC6B487.5010502@rogers.com> <20031128024853.GA437@node1.opengeometry.net> <3FC7360A.1040705@rogers.com> <3FC75011.3000905@truxtar.com> <3FC7ECB7.5070701@rogers.com> <3FC8149D.9040006@truxtar.com> <20031129070822.7c292e59.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <3FC8986B.5040609@rogers.com> JoeHill wrote: > On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 22:38:05 -0500 > Anton Markov wrote: > > >>I completely understand what you are saying, but I don't see how that is >>illegal. > > > It doesn't matter whether *you* see it as illegal or not. Facts are facts. They > have already been found guilty, as I said, in several jurisdictions, by varying > degrees of "liberal" and "not so liberal" courts, of various and sundry illegal > business practices. > > They have yet, however, to be properly punished . > If Bush hadn't become president ( I won't say he won the election ) the penalties would have been more severe. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 29 13:15:27 2003 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter L. Peres) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 15:15:27 +0200 (IST) Subject: GUI In-Reply-To: <3FC8149D.9040006-F0u+EriZ6ihBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20031127175739.GA447@node1.opengeometry.net> <3FC68335.3090805@rogers.com> <200311271946.27714.fraser@wehave.net> <3FC6B487.5010502@rogers.com> <20031128024853.GA437@node1.opengeometry.net> <3FC7360A.1040705@rogers.com> <3FC75011.3000905@truxtar.com> <3FC7ECB7.5070701@rogers.com> <3FC8149D.9040006@truxtar.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 28 Nov 2003, Anton Markov wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > Hi James and Phillip, > > I completely understand what you are saying, but I don't see how that is > illegal. Let's look at an example... > > You own a Chrysler dealership. The business has never really picked up ... The illegality consists in price dumping conditioned on non-competition. The prices of M$ products vary such that they undercut the competition, regardless of any losses they may incur. The prices are high when there is no competition, and undercut the competition whenever there is any. Since the products are mostly software in theory they can give them away for free. But they don't do that. They just make them cheap enough that the competition has no bread to eat, even if in theory this causes them to lose money. Worse, they condition this on non-sale of competitive products. This breaks the laws on allowed pricing policy in at least half the civilized world as I know it. Worse again, after the competition folds, the prices double or triple. This is why price dumping is illegal. It can put a competitor with deep pockets (or with artificially very cheap labor) in the monopolist position within a few years, while causing countless businesses to fold and loss of tax income from such businesses plus unemployment that cannot be sustained (for lack of a tax base) on a massive scale. This is especially true if the monopolist is offshore. Sounds familiar ? Fyi in most civilized places there are solid rules about published prices and the obligation of companies to stand by them. This means *both* upwards *and* downwards adjustments are not allowed (within reasonable limits) once the prices are published. E.g.. if a license for something or other costs $100 a seat then no-one can get it for $20 a seat behind your back. At least not on a massive scale. Remember taxes are percentual and such 'schemes' can be considered tax evasion attempts, besides being price dumping. The taxation shifts from retail taxation to corporate income taxation, which saves the company a bundle. Several attempts to do such things can be seen with ice cream brands, packaged food brands in supermarkets etc. They only work in places where there are totalitarian state monopolies or 19th century-style 'free exchange' capitalism with huge monopolists eliminating competition from the market and fixing prices at will. Most are illegal when the price dumping item enters the equation. Ianal. Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 29 13:13:46 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 08:13:46 -0500 Subject: GUI In-Reply-To: <3FC8986B.5040609-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <20031127175739.GA447@node1.opengeometry.net> <3FC68335.3090805@rogers.com> <200311271946.27714.fraser@wehave.net> <3FC6B487.5010502@rogers.com> <20031128024853.GA437@node1.opengeometry.net> <3FC7360A.1040705@rogers.com> <3FC75011.3000905@truxtar.com> <3FC7ECB7.5070701@rogers.com> <3FC8149D.9040006@truxtar.com> <20031129070822.7c292e59.joehill@sympatico.ca> <3FC8986B.5040609@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20031129081346.61011763.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Sat, 29 Nov 2003 08:00:27 -0500 James Knott wrote: > >>I completely understand what you are saying, but I don't see how that is > >>illegal. > > > > > > It doesn't matter whether *you* see it as illegal or not. Facts are facts. > > They > > have already been found guilty, as I said, in several jurisdictions, by > > varying > > degrees of "liberal" and "not so liberal" courts, of various and sundry > > illegal > > business practices. > > > > They have yet, however, to be properly punished . > > > > If Bush hadn't become president ( I won't say he won the election ) the > penalties would have been more severe. This is true. One of Shrub's first acts as President was to tell the Justice Department to back off. IIRC, some of his cronies used to/do sit on MS's board. Not to mention that MS was a *huge* contributer to his "election" campaign. -- JoeHill ++ ICQ # 280779813 Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "Reality is what you can get away with." -- Robert Anton Wilson -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 29 14:01:26 2003 From: cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org (cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 09:01:26 -0500 Subject: GUI In-Reply-To: Message from "Peter L. Peres" of "Sat, 29 Nov 2003 15:15:27 +0200." References: <20031127175739.GA447@node1.opengeometry.net> <3FC68335.3090805@rogers.com> <200311271946.27714.fraser@wehave.net> <3FC6B487.5010502@rogers.com> <20031128024853.GA437@node1.opengeometry.net> <3FC7360A.1040705@rogers.com> <3FC75011.3000905@truxtar.com> <3FC7ECB7.5070701@rogers.com> <3FC8149D.9040006@truxtar.com> Message-ID: <20031129140127.D814C4038@cbbrowne.com> > Worse, they condition this on non-sale of competitive products. This > breaks the laws on allowed pricing policy in at least half the > civilized world as I know it. Worse again, after the competition > folds, the prices double or triple. This is why price dumping is > illegal. It can put a competitor with deep pockets (or with > artificially very cheap labor) in the monopolist position within a few > years, while causing countless businesses to fold and loss of tax > income from such businesses plus unemployment that cannot be sustained > (for lack of a tax base) on a massive scale. This is especially true > if the monopolist is offshore. Sounds familiar ? Fyi in most > civilized places there are solid rules about published prices and the > obligation of companies to stand by them. This means *both* upwards > *and* downwards adjustments are not allowed (within reasonable limits) > once the prices are published. And what is further interesting about the Microsoft situation is that the _genuine_ political opposition is mostly taking place outside the US. In the US, Microsoft can wave the American flag and say, "Support us! It's Unamerican to do otherwise!" But any place where they are 'alien,' the money that goes into licenses is being sent to a foreign nation, taking money out of the domestic software market. Microsoft can pay for a lot of lobbyists, but the only country in which they can play the "patriotism" card is the US. If they buy off politicians, it can't be disguised as some form of patriotism. -- wm(X,Y):-write(X),write('@'),write(Y). wm('cbbrowne','acm.org'). http://cbbrowne.com/info/x.html Family "tree?" For some people, it's merely a "family graph." -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From rickl-ZACYGPecefkNbK0NzMECUg at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 29 14:06:03 2003 From: rickl-ZACYGPecefkNbK0NzMECUg at public.gmane.org (rickl-ZACYGPecefkNbK0NzMECUg at public.gmane.org) Date: 29 Nov 2003 14:06:03 -0000 Subject: [TorontoNUI] What's New? Message-ID: <20031129140603.868.qmail@wm0.netfirms.com> Hi Lloyd, No this was'nt by accident. I'm trying to let every one know that Novell is actively involved in Linux and that there are opportunities to build support for Linux with Novell Users International (NUI). I know a lot of Tlug members don't like large software companies but there are some who need to kept up to date whats happening as they support large heterogeneous computer systems. RickT Driving Force Technologies Ltd. Rick Tomaschuk Tel: 905-813-3036 Email: rickt-ZACYGPecefkNbK0NzMECUg at public.gmane.org Novell Resource: http://www.TorontoNUI.ca On 27 Nov 2003 at 22:18, Lloyd D Budd wrote: > Hi Rick, > > It seems that you may have accidently sent the email below to TLUG. > > Cheers, > Lloyd > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lloyd-fEEwcc3XMu8jODpR/OX0VQ at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 29 14:47:41 2003 From: lloyd-fEEwcc3XMu8jODpR/OX0VQ at public.gmane.org (Lloyd D Budd) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 09:47:41 -0500 Subject: [TorontoNUI] What's New? In-Reply-To: <20031129140603.868.qmail-fSq+MfIEYvED+VeP4Ct4bw@public.gmane.org> References: <20031129140603.868.qmail@wm0.netfirms.com> Message-ID: <1070117261.1215.263.camel@localhost> Hi RickT, Please consider posting a shorter and more succinct message next time. Your email, although I trust your intentions, borders on SPAM, off-topic, or repeating news already discussed without making apparent the new perspective / information. If anything bothers me about the email it is that it was not well written for the audience. You may want to consider having another member of TNUI, or even better someone unfamiliar with the topics review your announcements directed outside of TNUI. The most basic example is you never identify what NUI stands for. If you would like me to suggest more specifics, I would consider consultation off-list. Possibly something like the following would be more digestible: Subject: Toronto Novell User International Group Message: Novell is a supporter of Linux. Toronto has an active Novell User International Group, and provides many Linux resources. If you are interested in our activities, getting involved, or have questions please check us out at http://www.TorontoNUI.ca , or email me directly. Other great ways to "influence" members of TLUG: - contribute answers to Linux technical questions on the mailing list - provide free Linux stuff @ TLUG, NewTLUG meetings Thank you, Lloyd On Sat, 2003-11-29 at 09:06, rickl-ZACYGPecefkNbK0NzMECUg at public.gmane.org wrote: > Hi Lloyd, > No this was'nt by accident. I'm trying to let every one know that > Novell is actively involved in Linux and that there are opportunities > to build support for Linux with Novell Users International (NUI). I > know a lot of Tlug members don't like large software companies but > there are some who need to kept up to date whats happening as they > support large heterogeneous computer systems. > RickT > > Driving Force Technologies Ltd. > Rick Tomaschuk > Tel: 905-813-3036 > Email: rickt-ZACYGPecefkNbK0NzMECUg at public.gmane.org > > Novell Resource: http://www.TorontoNUI.ca > > On 27 Nov 2003 at 22:18, Lloyd D Budd wrote: > > > Hi Rick, > > > > It seems that you may have accidently sent the email below to TLUG. > > > > Cheers, > > Lloyd -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lists-Gb8Tj4xcA4YgsBAKwltoeQ at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 29 17:48:39 2003 From: lists-Gb8Tj4xcA4YgsBAKwltoeQ at public.gmane.org (Byron Q. Desnoyers Winmill) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 12:48:39 -0500 (EST) Subject: GUI In-Reply-To: <2736.216.138.194.32.1070097643.squirrel-16UnNR4aCrhlws70yGkXPA@public.gmane.org> References: <20031127175739.GA447@node1.opengeometry.net> <3FC68335.3090805@rogers.com> <200311271946.27714.fraser@wehave.net> <3FC6B487.5010502@rogers.com> <20031128024853.GA437@node1.opengeometry.net> <3FC7360A.1040705@rogers.com> <3FC75011.3000905@truxtar.com> <3FC7ECB7.5070701@rogers.com> <3FC8149D.9040006@truxtar.com> <20031129062420.GA6065@pluto.bsdwebhosting.net> <2736.216.138.194.32.1070097643.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> Message-ID: On Sat, 29 Nov 2003, Keith Mastin wrote: > Just the idea of rights is a limitation on them. We are 'given' rights so > they can be taken away. I will agree that rights are an artificial construct. I do not agree that they can be arbitrarily withdrawn. If they could, a judicial system would be unnecessary: the simple act of investigation would prove guilt and the prescribed sentences would be sufficient in all cases. Similarly, you would not need courts to mediate contract disputes -- because every clause would be considered binding, even if they contradicted the law. The rights of an individual are often circumvented for the good of society. For example: a person has little right to descriminate on age, race, religion, sex, and so forth. Similarly, some laws have anti-circumvention clauses built into them because some people believe that contracts can override the decree of governments. This is a disadvantage of the individual, because alternative power structures can be imposed. It is also against the interest of governments, because it would compete with their powers. Finally, there is (IMHO) this absurd notion that groups can have rights. Any substantial group would have the ability to enforce their will upon individuals through coercion. I would also suggest that on group doesn't have the same rights as individuals: the government and its agencies are bound by due process to ensure that their actions are responsible. Byron. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 29 16:25:10 2003 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 11:25:10 -0500 Subject: GUI In-Reply-To: References: <3FC6401C.4090709@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <20031129162509.GA2109@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Nov 27, 2003 at 02:12:55PM -0500, Henry Spencer wrote: > And don't forget IBM's OS/2. Either MacOS or OS/2 could have owned the > desktop market in the same way Windows owns it now, had their parent > companies displayed a modicum of intelligence. It took Microsoft a long > time to respond adequately to the Mac, and the pent-up demand for a > graphical environment was enormous by the time the first usable Windows > (3.0 or thereabouts) appeared. The first graphical environment with a > solid set of basic applications running on cheap hardware was going to > take over the market and make somebody a whole lot of money, and either > Apple or IBM could have delivered it well before Microslop. But Apple was > (and still is) bent on using MacOS to sell overpriced hardware, and IBM > marketing was far gone into senility and couldn't grasp how vital it was > to have a proper applications lineup for OS/2. Lack of backwards compatibility with DOS applications was probably the biggest issue with OS/2, which meant there was lots of reason not to switch for people, and hence no reason for anyone to develop applications for OS/2 since no one was switching. By the time 386 protected mode came around and was supported in OS/2 and could actually run a decent number of DOS programs, win 3.0 had already taken off. Lennart Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 29 16:28:12 2003 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 11:28:12 -0500 Subject: GUI In-Reply-To: <3FC68335.3090805-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <20031127175739.GA447@node1.opengeometry.net> <3FC68335.3090805@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20031129162812.GB2109@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Nov 27, 2003 at 06:05:25PM -0500, James Knott wrote: > Windows??? Original??? Don't you recall the lawsuit, when they > imitated the Mac desktop? GUIs didn't even originate with Apple. They > were invented at Xerox, which Apple then borrowed for the Mac. > > As far as desktops go, the best by far is the workplace shell in OS/2. > There's not another desktop that comes anywhere near it's capabilities. All I remember was ow OS/2 felt like it was assembled by hundreds of independant teams that didn't talk to each other. Related options where spread all over in different tabbed windows in no sensible order. What a mess. And from what I read about people trying to write multimedia apps for OS/2 it was horrible to develop on. Of course I never tried to write any programs for OS/2. I prefered Linux at the time I met OS/2. I still do. Lennart Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 29 16:32:45 2003 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 11:32:45 -0500 Subject: GUI In-Reply-To: <3FC6B487.5010502-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <20031127175739.GA447@node1.opengeometry.net> <3FC68335.3090805@rogers.com> <200311271946.27714.fraser@wehave.net> <3FC6B487.5010502@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20031129163245.GC2109@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Nov 27, 2003 at 09:35:51PM -0500, James Knott wrote: > That's a huge question. There are many things in it, that I couldn't do > more than scratch the surface. If you're looking to just point and > click, any shell will do. The WPS can do so much more, that I don't > know where to start. Everything on the desktop is an object, with full > properties, which can be use for many things. For example I used to > download stuff from Compuserve. In the properties for a file, there's a > page for descripton, history etc. When I downloaded a file from > Compuserver, the application I used, (Golden Compass) would pull the > file.idz from the download, and place the contents in the description > box. The download date etc., would be stored in the history and so on. > Then you could use the searching capabilities of the WPS to search on > the contents of the description, history, access dates and times and > much, much more, in about a complex of search as you could imagine. > Another nice thing, was the "shadows", which would be similar in concept > to hard links in Linux, in that instead of having the "shortcut" as in > Windows, the shadow was actually another instance of the original > object. This means that changes in one affect all. Also, the object > you see on the desktop, is actually part of the attributes of the file, > and not a separate file pointing do it, in the way that icons are linked > to files in Windows and Linux. This means you avoid the problem you > have in Windows, where it's possible to move a file in such a way, that > the shortcut loses track of where it is. Shotcuts yes, but if the file is actually in the 'Desktop' directory it will just be the file itself you see. > It would be a whole lot easier to show the things the WPS is capable of > than to try and describe them. > > Also, I have found the multitasking in OS/2 to be better than Linux and > far better still than Windows. For example, on my Athlon XP 1700 system > with 512 MB, opening Konqueror will interupt the playing of a midi file. > I never had such a thing happen in OS/2, even on a 386! One of the > things OS/2 users used as an example, was to format a floppy in the > background, while doing something else, with little effect from the > floppy operation. This compares with the Windows desktop virtually > locking up in a similar test. I find a lot of things on Linux depends a lot on your kernel, how it is optimized (and 2.4 sure could use some help, which 2.6 is going to give), as well as which sound card and drivers you use. The OSS drivers really suck badly. ALSA drivers are almost always much faster and more responsive, and they are always much more feature complete for a sound chip. Of course DMA access being enabled on the drives also will help things a lot. > There were features in OS/2, back in 1992, that have still not appeared > in Windows. Well my Amiga 500 could format a floppy while playing a mod file no problem (along with doing other things) on a 7.16 MHz 68000. > In order to appreciate all the benefits of OS/2, you have to use it a > fair bit. And even though I've used it for almost 14 years and even > provided 3rd level support at IBM on it, there's still a lot of it, > which I haven't used. Lennart Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 29 16:34:46 2003 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter L. Peres) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 18:34:46 +0200 (IST) Subject: dc20 camera Message-ID: Hi all, someone may be able to help: I picked up a used kodak dc20 camera for a song at a flea market. It seemed to work but nothing is known about this. So I used with the dc20 package on linux. The camera seems to be in some sort of weird test mode saving images which consist of a gray gradient over the whole picture (black on left white on right). I'd call this a gamma test gradient, except it's a bug. Does anyone know of such a problem with a dc20 and whether it might be caused by improper software ? I have tested the camera thoroughly and it is electrically ok up to and including the image adc (I have the equipment to do this). The windows driver produces the exact same results as the linux driver does, but additionally segfaults and refuses to download pictures. I hope that this is not very confuse. The intended question is, whether a software problem/fix could cause such a gradient pattern picture. Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From taavi-LbuTpDkqzNzXI80/IeQp7B2eb7JE58TQ at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 29 17:02:53 2003 From: taavi-LbuTpDkqzNzXI80/IeQp7B2eb7JE58TQ at public.gmane.org (Taavi Burns) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 12:02:53 -0500 Subject: GUI In-Reply-To: References: <20031127175739.GA447@node1.opengeometry.net> <3FC68335.3090805@rogers.com> <200311271946.27714.fraser@wehave.net> <3FC6B487.5010502@rogers.com> <20031128194827.GL5934@hatefulsheep.ym.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> Message-ID: <20031129170253.GC11552@hatefulsheep.ym.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> On Fri, Nov 28, 2003 at 08:25:43PM -0500, Tim Writer wrote: > > I believe that everyone referring to OS/2 being wonderful post 1995 would be > > referring to OS/2 Warp 3 (or one of its variants). In a move totally unlike > > anything M$ has ever done, Warp 3 took less RAM and ran faster than OS/2 2.x. > > (I think it did use more disk, though) > > Well, I was dumb enough to buy that too based on recommendations of some > colleagues. Again, nice to look at but not terribly useful because it didn't > come with a host of free applications like Linux. At the time, I was making At the time I didn't have all that much I needed to do that OS/2 couldn't. I was never really into downloading hordes of shareware/freeware, and as I was on dialup things did take a while to get. Running Word 6.0 in Win-OS/2 mode was lots of fun. I appreciated the archetecural superiority of OS/2. When it ran out of disk for the print spool, it popped up a nice little dialog box and asked if I wanted to open a shell so that I could correct the situation. It had to do this twice for me. It was seamless. All I could think of is how Windows (3.1) would have just crashed and burnt if it ran out of disk. I had only recently really begun coding C outside of DOS real-mode. I do believe I'd found DJGPP, and barely discovered EMX...and then this whole Win95 thing happened, followed very shortly by my nearly total conversion to Linux. (the past few years have been filled with Linux, *BSD, and OSX joy) > my living as an independent consultant and programmer working with a variety > of UNIX platforms. It absolutley makes sense to not be using OS/2 in that context. :) > In that context, the Linux development environment was > much more useful than anything (free or otherwise) I could get for OS/2 (or > Windows for that matter). For sure. Develop *NIX on *NIX(ish). -- taa /*eof*/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From taavi-LbuTpDkqzNzXI80/IeQp7B2eb7JE58TQ at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 29 17:04:49 2003 From: taavi-LbuTpDkqzNzXI80/IeQp7B2eb7JE58TQ at public.gmane.org (Taavi Burns) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 12:04:49 -0500 Subject: GUI In-Reply-To: <20031129162812.GB2109-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20031127175739.GA447@node1.opengeometry.net> <3FC68335.3090805@rogers.com> <20031129162812.GB2109@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20031129170449.GD11552@hatefulsheep.ym.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> On Sat, Nov 29, 2003 at 11:28:12AM -0500, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > All I remember was ow OS/2 felt like it was assembled by hundreds of > independant teams that didn't talk to each other. Related options where Warp 3.0 was rather fugly widget- and wm-wise. > spread all over in different tabbed windows in no sensible order. What > a mess. And from what I read about people trying to write multimedia > apps for OS/2 it was horrible to develop on. Of course I never tried to > write any programs for OS/2. I prefered Linux at the time I met OS/2. > I still do. And writing multimedia apps for Linux and Windows are any better? I found this yesterday, and it totally made my day (hot on the heels of the /. article about libcaca): http://developer.apple.com/samplecode/Sample_Code/QuickTime/Goodies/ASCIIMoviePlayerSample/qtplyr.c.htm -- taa /*eof*/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From rickl-ZACYGPecefkNbK0NzMECUg at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 29 17:08:31 2003 From: rickl-ZACYGPecefkNbK0NzMECUg at public.gmane.org (rickl-ZACYGPecefkNbK0NzMECUg at public.gmane.org) Date: 29 Nov 2003 17:08:31 -0000 Subject: [TorontoNUI]: Whats new? Message-ID: <20031129170831.25564.qmail@wm0.netfirms.com> "Welcome to TLUG ********** About Us The Toronto Linux User Group is committed to the free exchange of Linux related information. http://tlug.ss.org/ I'm sorry Lloyd. I have no idea who you are. Have we met? Maybe you would like to join our group and take on the job since you seem so well versed in protocol. I was simply posting a message as do many to the TLUG list. If you don't like what you see just hit delete. RickT Driving Force Technologies Ltd. Rick Tomaschuk Tel: 905-813-3036 Email: rickt-ZACYGPecefkNbK0NzMECUg at public.gmane.org Novell Resource: http://www.TorontoNUI.ca On 29 Nov 2003 at 9:47, Lloyd D Budd wrote: > Hi RickT, > > Please consider posting a shorter and more succinct message next time. > Your email, although I trust your intentions, borders on SPAM, > off-topic, or repeating news already discussed without making apparent > the new perspective / information. > > If anything bothers me about the email it is that it was not well > written for the audience. You may want to consider having another > member of TNUI, or even better someone unfamiliar with the topics review > your announcements directed outside of TNUI. The most basic example is > you never identify what NUI stands for. If you would like me to suggest > more specifics, I would consider consultation off-list. > > > Possibly something like the following would be more digestible: > > Subject: Toronto Novell User International Group > > Message: Novell is a supporter of Linux. Toronto has an active Novell > User International Group, and provides many Linux resources. If you are > interested in our activities, getting involved, or have questions please > check us out at http://www.TorontoNUI.ca , or email me directly. > > > Other great ways to "influence" members of TLUG: > - contribute answers to Linux technical questions on the mailing list > - provide free Linux stuff @ TLUG, NewTLUG meetings > > > Thank you, > Lloyd > > > > On Sat, 2003-11-29 at 09:06, rickl-ZACYGPecefkNbK0NzMECUg at public.gmane.org wrote: > > Hi Lloyd, > > No this was'nt by accident. I'm trying to let every one know that > > Novell is actively involved in Linux and that there are opportunities > > to build support for Linux with Novell Users International (NUI). I > > know a lot of Tlug members don't like large software companies but > > there are some who need to kept up to date whats happening as they > > support large heterogeneous computer systems. > > RickT > > > > Driving Force Technologies Ltd. > > Rick Tomaschuk > > Tel: 905-813-3036 > > Email: rickt-ZACYGPecefkNbK0NzMECUg at public.gmane.org > > > > Novell Resource: http://www.TorontoNUI.ca > > > > On 27 Nov 2003 at 22:18, Lloyd D Budd wrote: > > > > > Hi Rick, > > > > > > It seems that you may have accidently sent the email below to TLUG. > > > > > > Cheers, > > > Lloyd > > Driving Force Technologies Ltd. Rick Tomaschuk Tel: 905-813-3036 Email: rickt-ZACYGPecefkNbK0NzMECUg at public.gmane.org Novell Resource: http://www.TorontoNUI.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jkls-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 29 18:38:16 2003 From: jkls-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (jkls) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 13:38:16 -0500 Subject: Debian apt-get install kernel-image Message-ID: <3FC8E798.1000307@sympatico.ca> I could have sworn I asked for smbfs support when I installed this system but it's not there so... I did an apt-get install kernel-image last week and I thought I saw some errors in the text that scrolled by as it finished the config. I just haven't re-booted since because I haven't had time to look into it. 1. Is there a way to see the output of these dpkg, debconf commands? Some sort of history log? Looks like no. I see that some FAQ's say to use tee to log the output. 2. If I have to switch back to my old kernel am I right to think I just need to reverse any changes to lilo.conf, kernel-image.conf, change the symlink in /vmlinuz to point to my old kernel, and then run lilo? Thanks, LS -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From kmastin-PzQIwG9Jn9VAFePFGvp55w at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 29 18:50:12 2003 From: kmastin-PzQIwG9Jn9VAFePFGvp55w at public.gmane.org (Keith Mastin) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 13:50:12 -0500 (EST) Subject: GUI In-Reply-To: References: <20031127175739.GA447@node1.opengeometry.net> <3FC68335.3090805@rogers.com><200311271946.27714.fraser@wehave.net> <3FC6B487.5010502@rogers.com> <20031128024853.GA437@node1.opengeometry.net> <3FC7360A.1040705@rogers.com><3FC75011.3000905@truxtar.com> <3FC7ECB7.5070701@rogers.com><3FC8149D.9040006@truxtar.com> <20031129062420.GA6065@pluto.bsdwebhosting.net><2736.216.138.194.32.1070097643.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> Message-ID: <1152.216.138.194.32.1070131812.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> > On Sat, 29 Nov 2003, Keith Mastin wrote: >> Just the idea of rights is a limitation on them. We are 'given' rights >> so they can be taken away. > > I will agree that rights are an artificial construct. I do not > agree that they can be arbitrarily withdrawn. If they could, a October 1970? Trudeau imposed Martial Law, hundreds were detained without arrest, very few were ever charged. I wouyld say that those rights were artificially withdrawn. The "individual rights and freedoms" are enshrined to attempt to keep the lid on police and government officials from literally making laws on the street. The fact that were are "granted" these "rights and freedoms" means that if one is not "granted" them they do not exist. > judicial system would be unnecessary: the simple act of investigation > would prove guilt and the prescribed sentences would be sufficient > in all cases. Similarly, you would not need courts to mediate > contract disputes -- because every clause would be considered > binding, even if they contradicted the law. You are confusing "rights and freedoms" with "the rule of law". The 2 are notmutually exclusive, nor are they dependant on each other. > The rights of an individual are often circumvented for the good of > society. For example: a person has little right to descriminate > on age, race, religion, sex, and so forth. Similarly, some laws > have anti-circumvention clauses built into them because some people > believe that contracts can override the decree of governments. This The law is a binding contract on all individuals, which can only be broken by government. This is the purpose of the notwithstanding clause of the Charter of rights and Freedoms. > is a disadvantage of the individual, because alternative power > structures can be imposed. It is also against the interest of > governments, because it would compete with their powers. > > Finally, there is (IMHO) this absurd notion that groups can have > rights. Any substantial group would have the ability to enforce > their will upon individuals through coercion. I would also suggest > that on group doesn't have the same rights as individuals: the > government and its agencies are bound by due process to ensure that > their actions are responsible. All that is really important is that the "appearance of justice" is ensured and imposed. This is now a tenet in Canadian law, set down by the Supreme Court of Canada in a constituational ruling regarding the rights of citizens upon arrest. I don't have the exact citation handy, but I'm sure that if I dig out all my old university papers I can find it. The whole idea here is that the courts have admitted that they cannot be fair and just 100% of the time, but they can do their best to appear to be fair and just. From the courts point of view, this makes absolute sense as the appearance of justice makes the whole sham look like it's a good thing. I can disagree all I want, but my opinion won't amount to a hill of beans in the courts view, so I just STFU. :) -- Keith -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 29 20:27:18 2003 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 15:27:18 -0500 Subject: GUI In-Reply-To: <20031129162509.GA2109-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <3FC6401C.4090709@alteeve.com> <20031129162509.GA2109@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <3FC90126.8030204@rogers.com> Lennart Sorensen wrote: > Lack of backwards compatibility with DOS applications was probably the > biggest issue with OS/2, which meant there was lots of reason not to > switch for people, and hence no reason for anyone to develop > applications for OS/2 since no one was switching. By the time 386 > protected mode came around and was supported in OS/2 and could actually > run a decent number of DOS programs, win 3.0 had already taken off. ???? Where on earth did you dig up that? DOS support in OS/2 2.0 and later was and is excellent. I never came across a DOS program that wouldn't work in it, though some required adjustment of settings. The DOS problems were in the early days of OS/2 1.x, when MS was developing it. When IBM took control at v 1.3, it was a much better product. One might assume that MS had deliberately crippled it. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 29 20:31:40 2003 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 15:31:40 -0500 Subject: GUI In-Reply-To: <20031129140127.D814C4038-xzRQuAxiFLNWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org> References: <3FC68335.3090805@rogers.com> <200311271946.27714.fraser@wehave.net> <3FC6B487.5010502@rogers.com> <20031128024853.GA437@node1.opengeometry.net> <3FC7360A.1040705@rogers.com> <3FC75011.3000905@truxtar.com> <3FC7ECB7.5070701@rogers.com> <3FC8149D.9040006@truxtar.com> <20031129140127.D814C4038@cbbrowne.com> Message-ID: <20031129203140.GA356@node1.opengeometry.net> On Sat, Nov 29, 2003 at 09:01:26AM -0500, cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org wrote: > And what is further interesting about the Microsoft situation is that > the _genuine_ political opposition is mostly taking place outside the > US. > > In the US, Microsoft can wave the American flag and say, "Support us! > It's Unamerican to do otherwise!" > > But any place where they are 'alien,' the money that goes into licenses > is being sent to a foreign nation, taking money out of the domestic > software market. Microsoft can pay for a lot of lobbyists, but the only > country in which they can play the "patriotism" card is the US. If they > buy off politicians, it can't be disguised as some form of patriotism. It's quite amusing to see all these cheap shots directed at Microsoft, while leaving the hardware players (ie. Intel, IBM) alone. Whether it's OS/2, Windows, DOS, or Linux, they're all running on Intel CPU. If Microsoft's dominance is so bad, then Intel's position is worse by order of magnitude. So far, Korean (federal) and German (municipal) government decided to try Linux. This means Intel CPU, also. Where are the commies when you really need them? -- William Park, Open Geometry Consulting, Linux solution for data management and processing. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 29 20:31:59 2003 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 15:31:59 -0500 Subject: GUI In-Reply-To: <20031129162812.GB2109-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20031127175739.GA447@node1.opengeometry.net> <3FC68335.3090805@rogers.com> <20031129162812.GB2109@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <3FC9023F.5020908@rogers.com> Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Thu, Nov 27, 2003 at 06:05:25PM -0500, James Knott wrote: > >>Windows??? Original??? Don't you recall the lawsuit, when they >>imitated the Mac desktop? GUIs didn't even originate with Apple. They >>were invented at Xerox, which Apple then borrowed for the Mac. >> >>As far as desktops go, the best by far is the workplace shell in OS/2. >>There's not another desktop that comes anywhere near it's capabilities. > > > All I remember was ow OS/2 felt like it was assembled by hundreds of > independant teams that didn't talk to each other. Related options where > spread all over in different tabbed windows in no sensible order. What > a mess. And from what I read about people trying to write multimedia > apps for OS/2 it was horrible to develop on. Of course I never tried to > write any programs for OS/2. I prefered Linux at the time I met OS/2. > I still do. I can't say much about that, as the only "development" I did on it, was homework for my C programming class and a few small REXX programs. One "fun" thing I came across in that C homework, was the different variable sizes in the Borland C++ (OS/2) I had at home and Turbo C++ (DOS), which we used in class. I'd write my program and it would run fine at home, but then in class next day, I'd over run some variable. However, the same problem would have occured if I'd used Borland C++ for Windows. As for the settings, I don't recall the problem being that bad, though there certainly was room for some improvement. However the same could certainly be said for Linux. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 29 20:38:53 2003 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 15:38:53 -0500 Subject: GUI In-Reply-To: <20031129163245.GC2109-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20031127175739.GA447@node1.opengeometry.net> <3FC68335.3090805@rogers.com> <200311271946.27714.fraser@wehave.net> <3FC6B487.5010502@rogers.com> <20031129163245.GC2109@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <3FC903DD.7090904@rogers.com> Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Thu, Nov 27, 2003 at 09:35:51PM -0500, James Knott wrote: > >>That's a huge question. There are many things in it, that I couldn't do >>more than scratch the surface. If you're looking to just point and >>click, any shell will do. The WPS can do so much more, that I don't >>know where to start. Everything on the desktop is an object, with full >>properties, which can be use for many things. For example I used to >>download stuff from Compuserve. In the properties for a file, there's a >>page for descripton, history etc. When I downloaded a file from >>Compuserver, the application I used, (Golden Compass) would pull the >>file.idz from the download, and place the contents in the description >>box. The download date etc., would be stored in the history and so on. >> Then you could use the searching capabilities of the WPS to search on >>the contents of the description, history, access dates and times and >>much, much more, in about a complex of search as you could imagine. >>Another nice thing, was the "shadows", which would be similar in concept >>to hard links in Linux, in that instead of having the "shortcut" as in >>Windows, the shadow was actually another instance of the original >>object. This means that changes in one affect all. Also, the object >>you see on the desktop, is actually part of the attributes of the file, >>and not a separate file pointing do it, in the way that icons are linked >>to files in Windows and Linux. This means you avoid the problem you >>have in Windows, where it's possible to move a file in such a way, that >>the shortcut loses track of where it is. > > > Shotcuts yes, but if the file is actually in the 'Desktop' directory it > will just be the file itself you see. The file is normally not on the desktop. The icon is actually part of the file, in the extended attributes, but appears on the desktop. The shadows of that icon are actually the exact same icon, but appearing in a different location. Incidentally, OS/2 supported 64KB of extended attributes, which could hold a *LOT* of info about that file or object. > > >>It would be a whole lot easier to show the things the WPS is capable of >>than to try and describe them. >> >>Also, I have found the multitasking in OS/2 to be better than Linux and >>far better still than Windows. For example, on my Athlon XP 1700 system >>with 512 MB, opening Konqueror will interupt the playing of a midi file. >> I never had such a thing happen in OS/2, even on a 386! One of the >>things OS/2 users used as an example, was to format a floppy in the >>background, while doing something else, with little effect from the >>floppy operation. This compares with the Windows desktop virtually >>locking up in a similar test. > > > I find a lot of things on Linux depends a lot on your kernel, how it is > optimized (and 2.4 sure could use some help, which 2.6 is going to > give), as well as which sound card and drivers you use. The OSS drivers > really suck badly. ALSA drivers are almost always much faster and more > responsive, and they are always much more feature complete for a sound > chip. Of course DMA access being enabled on the drives also will help > things a lot. > > >>There were features in OS/2, back in 1992, that have still not appeared >>in Windows. > > > Well my Amiga 500 could format a floppy while playing a mod file no > problem (along with doing other things) on a 7.16 MHz 68000. I haven't used the Amiga, but it would take some doing, to be as bad as Windows. The 1st computer I ran OS/2 on, was a 386DX-33 & 4 MB of memory ( I quickly upgraded to 8). In many ways both OS/2 and Linux are better than Windows. In some of those ways OS/2 does it better than Linux and vice versa. I'd much rather run either, than have to use Windows. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From taavi-LbuTpDkqzNzXI80/IeQp7B2eb7JE58TQ at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 29 20:40:50 2003 From: taavi-LbuTpDkqzNzXI80/IeQp7B2eb7JE58TQ at public.gmane.org (Taavi Burns) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 15:40:50 -0500 Subject: GUI In-Reply-To: <20031129203140.GA356-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <200311271946.27714.fraser@wehave.net> <3FC6B487.5010502@rogers.com> <20031128024853.GA437@node1.opengeometry.net> <3FC7360A.1040705@rogers.com> <3FC75011.3000905@truxtar.com> <3FC7ECB7.5070701@rogers.com> <3FC8149D.9040006@truxtar.com> <20031129140127.D814C4038@cbbrowne.com> <20031129203140.GA356@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <20031129204050.GC12898@hatefulsheep.ym.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> On Sat, Nov 29, 2003 at 03:31:40PM -0500, William Park wrote: > So far, Korean (federal) and German (municipal) government decided to > try Linux. This means Intel CPU, also. Where are the commies when you > really need them? Um...last I checked Linux ran on a wide variety of CPUs, not just Intel. Of course they're going to reuse a crapload of x86 boxen (maybe they're AMD?), but once running Linux there isn't such a gross necessity to purchase x86 boxen. They could easily get some PPC or MIPS boxen in there. Oh, wait. x86 boxen are WAY cheaper anyway, and not afaik because Intel did anything illegal. (at least, as you've pointed out, nobody's pointed a finger at them to the same extent as M$) So the 487 was a full 486 that turned your 486SX into a nice little frying pan. You still got the functionality you paid for. -- taa /*eof*/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From taavi-LbuTpDkqzNzXI80/IeQp7B2eb7JE58TQ at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 29 20:44:03 2003 From: taavi-LbuTpDkqzNzXI80/IeQp7B2eb7JE58TQ at public.gmane.org (Taavi Burns) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 15:44:03 -0500 Subject: GUI In-Reply-To: <3FC9023F.5020908-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <20031127175739.GA447@node1.opengeometry.net> <3FC68335.3090805@rogers.com> <20031129162812.GB2109@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <3FC9023F.5020908@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20031129204403.GD12898@hatefulsheep.ym.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> On Sat, Nov 29, 2003 at 03:31:59PM -0500, James Knott wrote: > "fun" thing I came across in that C homework, was the different variable > sizes in the Borland C++ (OS/2) I had at home and Turbo C++ (DOS), which > we used in class. I'd write my program and it would run fine at home, > but then in class next day, I'd over run some variable. However, the > same problem would have occured if I'd used Borland C++ for Windows. I wouldn't be so sure. Windows 3.1 was still very 16-bit, and would probably have had a lot of 16-bit bias in it. OS/2 Warp 3, however, was a fully 32-bit OS, just like Linux, and so would have a 32-bit bias. There's currently a similar problem with Windows on 64-bit hardware, where 'int' is still a 32-bit number; it's the only 64-bit platform I know of where this is the case. I suspect this was done because setting it to a 64-bit type caused breakage due to shoddy, old, crufty code that nobody understood anyway. But that's purely supposition. It's not like I've ever peeked at the Windows source code to find out. -- taa /*eof*/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From dgenn-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 29 20:44:28 2003 From: dgenn-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (DanG) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 15:44:28 -0500 Subject: GUI In-Reply-To: <20031129203140.GA356-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20031129203140.GA356@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <20031129204356.OYBL389421.fep03-mail.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com@pittlandctr8at> True, Intel does need some competition. That will come with the new AMD Opterons and the Athlon 64. I wish that IBM would release a chipset or specs for the mainboard manufacturers worldwide so we could buy G5 PowerPC cpu's (which are really fast - but not at a cost point for most people) and not have to buy a Mac (remember the Mac clone days folks - man that was a long time ago :-) ) and use them in standard boards. That would really force the cpu market into competition. One nice note... the new X-box from Microsoft has licensed PowerPC chips (G5-like) from IBM instead of using Intel chips. At least that is a start. Now if only IBM could work with the oem motherboard makers and open up PowerPC which already runs Linux and the BSDs. -----Original Message----- From: owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org [mailto:owner-tlug at ss.org] On Behalf Of William Park Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2003 3:32 PM To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Subject: Re: [TLUG]: GUI On Sat, Nov 29, 2003 at 09:01:26AM -0500, cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org wrote: > And what is further interesting about the Microsoft situation is that > the _genuine_ political opposition is mostly taking place outside the > US. > > In the US, Microsoft can wave the American flag and say, "Support us! > It's Unamerican to do otherwise!" > > But any place where they are 'alien,' the money that goes into licenses > is being sent to a foreign nation, taking money out of the domestic > software market. Microsoft can pay for a lot of lobbyists, but the only > country in which they can play the "patriotism" card is the US. If they > buy off politicians, it can't be disguised as some form of patriotism. It's quite amusing to see all these cheap shots directed at Microsoft, while leaving the hardware players (ie. Intel, IBM) alone. Whether it's OS/2, Windows, DOS, or Linux, they're all running on Intel CPU. If Microsoft's dominance is so bad, then Intel's position is worse by order of magnitude. So far, Korean (federal) and German (municipal) government decided to try Linux. This means Intel CPU, also. Where are the commies when you really need them? -- William Park, Open Geometry Consulting, Linux solution for data management and processing. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 29 20:48:34 2003 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 15:48:34 -0500 Subject: GUI In-Reply-To: <20031129203140.GA356-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <3FC68335.3090805@rogers.com> <200311271946.27714.fraser@wehave.net> <3FC6B487.5010502@rogers.com> <20031128024853.GA437@node1.opengeometry.net> <3FC7360A.1040705@rogers.com> <3FC75011.3000905@truxtar.com> <3FC7ECB7.5070701@rogers.com> <3FC8149D.9040006@truxtar.com> <20031129140127.D814C4038@cbbrowne.com> <20031129203140.GA356@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <3FC90622.2020805@rogers.com> William Park wrote: > On Sat, Nov 29, 2003 at 09:01:26AM -0500, cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org wrote: > >>And what is further interesting about the Microsoft situation is that >>the _genuine_ political opposition is mostly taking place outside the >>US. >> >>In the US, Microsoft can wave the American flag and say, "Support us! >>It's Unamerican to do otherwise!" >> >>But any place where they are 'alien,' the money that goes into licenses >>is being sent to a foreign nation, taking money out of the domestic >>software market. Microsoft can pay for a lot of lobbyists, but the only >>country in which they can play the "patriotism" card is the US. If they >>buy off politicians, it can't be disguised as some form of patriotism. > > > It's quite amusing to see all these cheap shots directed at Microsoft, > while leaving the hardware players (ie. Intel, IBM) alone. Whether it's > OS/2, Windows, DOS, or Linux, they're all running on Intel CPU. If > Microsoft's dominance is so bad, then Intel's position is worse by order > of magnitude. Well, the computer I'm typing this on, is powered by an AMD Athlon XP 1700+. I don't recall seeing an "Intel Inside" sticker on it. ;-) Also, one nice thing about Linux, is that it can run on just about any CPU. Last I checked, you could even run it on IBM big iron, Power PC, 68000, Itanic, Alpha etc. There was also a version of OS/2 that ran on the PowerPC and some versions of Windows could run on other CPUs. So, if Intel disappeared tomorrow, it wouldn't cause more than a short term disruption, as others, primarily AMD could step in to fill the void. > > So far, Korean (federal) and German (municipal) government decided to > try Linux. This means Intel CPU, also. Where are the commies when you > really need them? > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 29 20:54:07 2003 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 15:54:07 -0500 Subject: GUI In-Reply-To: <20031129204050.GC12898-9xiANKxwco42bRTacqR3/JR8nzhMnQZF/mqnPsBvoffFpvyHdVPjngC/G2K4zDHf@public.gmane.org> References: <200311271946.27714.fraser@wehave.net> <3FC6B487.5010502@rogers.com> <20031128024853.GA437@node1.opengeometry.net> <3FC7360A.1040705@rogers.com> <3FC75011.3000905@truxtar.com> <3FC7ECB7.5070701@rogers.com> <3FC8149D.9040006@truxtar.com> <20031129140127.D814C4038@cbbrowne.com> <20031129203140.GA356@node1.opengeometry.net> <20031129204050.GC12898@hatefulsheep.ym.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> Message-ID: <3FC9076F.5070902@rogers.com> Taavi Burns wrote: > On Sat, Nov 29, 2003 at 03:31:40PM -0500, William Park wrote: > >>So far, Korean (federal) and German (municipal) government decided to >>try Linux. This means Intel CPU, also. Where are the commies when you >>really need them? > > > Um...last I checked Linux ran on a wide variety of CPUs, not just Intel. > > Of course they're going to reuse a crapload of x86 boxen (maybe they're > AMD?), but once running Linux there isn't such a gross necessity to > purchase x86 boxen. They could easily get some PPC or MIPS boxen in > there. > > Oh, wait. x86 boxen are WAY cheaper anyway, and not afaik because > Intel did anything illegal. (at least, as you've pointed out, nobody's > pointed a finger at them to the same extent as M$) So the 487 was > a full 486 that turned your 486SX into a nice little frying pan. > You still got the functionality you paid for. > Also, several years ago, Intel had to licence 2nd source suppliers for their chips, before they could be considered for military equipment. This resulted in companies such as AMD, Siemens, NEC etc., making plug in compatible chips for the Intel market. In my XT clone, I replaced the Intel 8088 with an NEC v20, which not only ran 8088 software faster, but could also run 8080 (remember CP/M?) apps. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 29 20:55:53 2003 From: henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org (Henry Spencer) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 15:55:53 -0500 (EST) Subject: Intel (was Re:GUI) In-Reply-To: <20031129203140.GA356-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20031129203140.GA356@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 29 Nov 2003, William Park wrote: > It's quite amusing to see all these cheap shots directed at Microsoft, > while leaving the hardware players (ie. Intel, IBM) alone. Whether it's > OS/2, Windows, DOS, or Linux, they're all running on Intel CPU. Speak for yourself. Here they're running on AMD CPUs, plus a few other flavors. (There are two or three Intel CPUs around, but they're all in machines that I got secondhand at bargain prices, and hence wasn't choosy about.) You do realize, I trust, that it was the arrival of serious competition from AMD that made the growth of x86 CPU speeds really go berserk about five years ago? If you plot MHz vs. time, the sharp upward turn in the curve is quite conspicuous. It didn't happen out of the goodness of Intel's heart. And if it happens that you don't like x86 machines at all, for which you can hardly be blamed :-), Linux runs on several other CPU architectures, although they tend to lag behind somewhat on performance and cost, and hence seldom get much publicity. Henry Spencer henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 29 20:57:44 2003 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 15:57:44 -0500 Subject: GUI In-Reply-To: <20031129204403.GD12898-9xiANKxwco42bRTacqR3/JR8nzhMnQZF/mqnPsBvoffFpvyHdVPjngC/G2K4zDHf@public.gmane.org> References: <20031127175739.GA447@node1.opengeometry.net> <3FC68335.3090805@rogers.com> <20031129162812.GB2109@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <3FC9023F.5020908@rogers.com> <20031129204403.GD12898@hatefulsheep.ym.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> Message-ID: <3FC90848.5070306@rogers.com> Taavi Burns wrote: > On Sat, Nov 29, 2003 at 03:31:59PM -0500, James Knott wrote: > >>"fun" thing I came across in that C homework, was the different variable >>sizes in the Borland C++ (OS/2) I had at home and Turbo C++ (DOS), which >>we used in class. I'd write my program and it would run fine at home, >>but then in class next day, I'd over run some variable. However, the >>same problem would have occured if I'd used Borland C++ for Windows. > > > I wouldn't be so sure. Windows 3.1 was still very 16-bit, and would > probably have had a lot of 16-bit bias in it. OS/2 Warp 3, however, > was a fully 32-bit OS, just like Linux, and so would have a 32-bit > bias. There were two packages for Windows. You could get either the Turbo or Borland versions. The Borland version used the same size variables as the OS/2 Borland C++. Don't forget, back in those days, both Windows 95 and NT were available. We used Windows 3.1 in that class. > > There's currently a similar problem with Windows on 64-bit hardware, > where 'int' is still a 32-bit number; it's the only 64-bit platform > I know of where this is the case. I suspect this was done because > setting it to a 64-bit type caused breakage due to shoddy, old, > crufty code that nobody understood anyway. But that's purely > supposition. It's not like I've ever peeked at the Windows > source code to find out. > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 29 21:24:04 2003 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 16:24:04 -0500 Subject: Intel (was Re:GUI) In-Reply-To: References: <20031129203140.GA356@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <20031129212404.GA8176@node1.opengeometry.net> On Sat, Nov 29, 2003 at 03:55:53PM -0500, Henry Spencer wrote: > On Sat, 29 Nov 2003, William Park wrote: > > It's quite amusing to see all these cheap shots directed at > > Microsoft, while leaving the hardware players (ie. Intel, IBM) > > alone. Whether it's OS/2, Windows, DOS, or Linux, they're all > > running on Intel CPU. > > Speak for yourself. Here they're running on AMD CPUs, plus a few > other flavors. (There are two or three Intel CPUs around, but they're > all in machines that I got secondhand at bargain prices, and hence > wasn't choosy about.) This is borderline amateurish. Intel gets royalty, for every AMD sold. This is no different from IBM getting residual royalty for whatever patents that they have on IC, BIOS, resistor, capacitor, Surface-mount technology, PCB tech, etc. You may buy motherboard made in Taiwan, but they had to licence from someone because they didn't do the fundamental research themselves. Before Linux, there was Coherent (I bought a copy). But, they decided to shoot themselves in the head. Live and let die, as they say. -- William Park, Open Geometry Consulting, Linux solution for data management and processing. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From mwilson-4YeSL8/OYKRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 29 21:16:38 2003 From: mwilson-4YeSL8/OYKRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Mel Wilson) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 16:16:38 -0500 Subject: [TorontoNUI] What's New? References: <20031129140603.868.qmail@wm0.netfirms.com> <1070117261.1215.263.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <2yQy/ks/KvGG089yn@the-wire.com> In article <1070117261.1215.263.camel-bi+AKbBUZKZeoWH0uzbU5w at public.gmane.org>, Lloyd D Budd wrote: > [ ... ] >Possibly something like the following would be more digestible: > >Subject: Toronto Novell User International Group > >Message: Novell is a supporter of Linux. Toronto has an active Novell >User International Group, and provides many Linux resources. If you are >interested in our activities, getting involved, or have questions please >check us out at http://www.TorontoNUI.ca , or email me directly. I agree. Yours I think could be smoothed a bit, but I would have understood it. I actually did blow off RickT's posting as spam (more specifically, something that had nothing to do with me.) Even though I was probably wrong. Regards. Mel. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From kmastin-PzQIwG9Jn9VAFePFGvp55w at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 29 21:08:10 2003 From: kmastin-PzQIwG9Jn9VAFePFGvp55w at public.gmane.org (Keith Mastin) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 16:08:10 -0500 (EST) Subject: GUI In-Reply-To: <20031129203140.GA356-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <3FC68335.3090805@rogers.com> <200311271946.27714.fraser@wehave.net> <3FC6B487.5010502@rogers.com> <20031128024853.GA437@node1.opengeometry.net> <3FC7360A.1040705@rogers.com> <3FC75011.3000905@truxtar.com> <3FC7ECB7.5070701@rogers.com> <3FC8149D.9040006@truxtar.com> <20031129140127.D814C4038@cbbrowne.com> <20031129203140.GA356@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <1306.216.138.194.32.1070140090.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> > It's quite amusing to see all these cheap shots directed at Microsoft, > while leaving the hardware players (ie. Intel, IBM) alone. Whether it's > OS/2, Windows, DOS, or Linux, they're all running on Intel CPU. If > Microsoft's dominance is so bad, then Intel's position is worse by order > of magnitude. Are you referring to iNtel the company or x86, the architecture? > So far, Korean (federal) and German (municipal) government decided to > try Linux. This means Intel CPU, also. Where are the commies when you > really need them? I don't understand this statement. Rather than upgrading licenses, these governments decided to give OSS a boost because they have, for some or other reason, decided it's better than paying M$. I don't recall reading or hearing that they went out and purchased a boatload of new hardware to run it on. My (limited) understanding of a lot of the 3rd world and the new "democratic" (i.e. post-soviet) states is that proprietary software is for the most part pirated. There must be a reason that those folks are using pirated proprietary software rather than free or OSS software. Also, please.... don't forget China (Socialist) and Peru (Democracy). They both are huge Linux users with outspoken references against M$. And while we are talking about the US, I also remember hearing about the NSA and a secured version of Linux. Then there's the recent posting regarding some place in Oregon using Linux. Nothing is as neat and packaged as it seems, or so it seems. -- Keith -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 29 21:33:02 2003 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 16:33:02 -0500 Subject: Intel (was Re:GUI) In-Reply-To: <20031129212404.GA8176-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20031129203140.GA356@node1.opengeometry.net> <20031129212404.GA8176@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <3FC9108E.6050809@rogers.com> William Park wrote: > On Sat, Nov 29, 2003 at 03:55:53PM -0500, Henry Spencer wrote: > >>On Sat, 29 Nov 2003, William Park wrote: >> >>>It's quite amusing to see all these cheap shots directed at >>>Microsoft, while leaving the hardware players (ie. Intel, IBM) >>>alone. Whether it's OS/2, Windows, DOS, or Linux, they're all >>>running on Intel CPU. >> >>Speak for yourself. Here they're running on AMD CPUs, plus a few >>other flavors. (There are two or three Intel CPUs around, but they're >>all in machines that I got secondhand at bargain prices, and hence >>wasn't choosy about.) > > > This is borderline amateurish. Intel gets royalty, for every AMD sold. > This is no different from IBM getting residual royalty for whatever > patents that they have on IC, BIOS, resistor, capacitor, Surface-mount > technology, PCB tech, etc. You may buy motherboard made in Taiwan, but > they had to licence from someone because they didn't do the fundamental > research themselves. While Intel designs and sells MBs, they aren't the only ones with that capability. I don't think you mentioned anything they'd have a patent on. > > Before Linux, there was Coherent (I bought a copy). But, they decided > to shoot themselves in the head. Live and let die, as they say. > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From kmastin-PzQIwG9Jn9VAFePFGvp55w at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 29 21:19:02 2003 From: kmastin-PzQIwG9Jn9VAFePFGvp55w at public.gmane.org (Keith Mastin) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 16:19:02 -0500 (EST) Subject: GUI In-Reply-To: <3FC8977D.4010701-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <20031127175739.GA447@node1.opengeometry.net> <3FC68335.3090805@rogers.com> <200311271946.27714.fraser@wehave.net> <3FC6B487.5010502@rogers.com> <20031128024853.GA437@node1.opengeometry.net> <3FC7360A.1040705@rogers.com> <3FC75011.3000905@truxtar.com> <3FC7ECB7.5070701@rogers.com> <3FC8149D.9040006@truxtar.com> <3FC81EAD.9030205@rogers.com> <20031129062041.GA13992@node1.opengeometry.net> <3FC8977D.4010701@rogers.com> Message-ID: <1339.216.138.194.32.1070140742.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> >> As opposed to toeing IBM's line? You (intentionly or unintentionally) >> forget that "the bad guy" back then was not Microsoft; rather, it was >> IBM and Mac, both of which tried their best to squeeze every penny from >> the users. It was Microsoft who gave out Windows for "free". >> >> Windows/DOS is owned by Microsoft, and it can do whatever it wants with >> it. This includes >> - putting bugs, incompatibilies, features, and additions. >> - setting price of software, support, etc. >> - ... >> As sole legal owner of Windows/DOS, Bill Gates does not require your >> approval or blessing in the running of his commerce. It's his right to >> make money, and it's his right to lose money. Microsoft has no duty or >> obligation to you or to make your life easier. Maybe you should've >> attended the last NewbieTLUG presentation. >> > > When a company has such control of the market, as MS does, and puts > barriers up that make it virtually impossible for a competitor to enter, > that's called restraint of trade. IBM, on the other hand, not only > allowed MS to sell DOS to others, it also published the BIOS, which > allowed others, such as Compaq to build competing systems. And with the > main frame systems, where IBM tried to remain proprietary, while > certainly the dominant company, they were by no means the only one > making main frames. You could go to Univac or GE or ... Further, even > back in the 60's there was a line of IBM "clones". These were mil spec > systems built by Collins (now part of Rockwell). While the hardware was > completely different, they were software compatible with the IBM 360. I > used to support them, when they were used as part of the Air Canada > reservation system. IBM never ever called me to first request a list of all customers I have build machines without their software, and then threatened me with court action if I did not comply. M$ tried rattling my tree a couple years back using these tactics. I would say that was quite an invasive attempt at market dominance, and I have no idea on how many other companies have been similarily threatened and (gulp) responded to the request by providing the info. What really scares me is that BeechTree is essentailly a one-man show. I would think that they should have been targetting bigger fish than I. -- Keith -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From kmastin-PzQIwG9Jn9VAFePFGvp55w at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 29 21:40:05 2003 From: kmastin-PzQIwG9Jn9VAFePFGvp55w at public.gmane.org (Keith Mastin) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 16:40:05 -0500 (EST) Subject: GUI In-Reply-To: <20031129070822.7c292e59.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <20031127175739.GA447@node1.opengeometry.net><3FC68335.3090805@rogers.com><200311271946.27714.fraser@wehave.net><3FC6B487.5010502@rogers.com><20031128024853.GA437@node1.opengeometry.net><3FC7360A.1040705@rogers.com><3FC75011.3000905@truxtar.com><3FC7ECB7.5070701@rogers.com><3FC8149D.9040006@truxtar.com> <20031129070822.7c292e59.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <1367.216.138.194.32.1070142005.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> >> I completely understand what you are saying, but I don't see how that is >> illegal. > > It doesn't matter whether *you* see it as illegal or not. Facts are > facts. They have already been found guilty, as I said, in several > jurisdictions, by varying degrees of "liberal" and "not so liberal" > courts, of various and sundry illegal business practices. I guess that's one take on it, even the most popular view, as limited as it is. However, consider this. What the courts have effectively done is tell other vendors not to do what M$ is doing or has done to get where they are, effectively sealing M$'s position as a market leader. Intentional? You tell me. The big 3 vendors still bundle M$ software on their systems, M$ is still incompatible with most other OS vendors, etc. etc. Nothing has *_really_* changed. > They have yet, however, to be properly punished . Don't hold your breath. -- Keith -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From kmastin-PzQIwG9Jn9VAFePFGvp55w at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 29 21:51:46 2003 From: kmastin-PzQIwG9Jn9VAFePFGvp55w at public.gmane.org (Keith Mastin) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 16:51:46 -0500 (EST) Subject: GUI In-Reply-To: <200311271946.27714.fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org> References: <20031127175739.GA447@node1.opengeometry.net> <3FC68335.3090805@rogers.com> <200311271946.27714.fraser@wehave.net> Message-ID: <1397.216.138.194.32.1070142706.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> >> As far as desktops go, the best by far is the workplace shell in OS/2. >> There's not another desktop that comes anywhere near it's capabilities. > > Really? I bought OS/2 Warp (v3) a while back (I believe 1995) thinking > that there might be an alternative to Linux ... I didn't like it that > much and so stuck with Linux. > > To be honest I doubt that I gave it a fair try. What is it about > workplace shell that is so good, what is workplace shell? I'm obviously > not going to switch to OS/2 now but I'd be interested to look at from an > educational perspective if it really had compelling features. Well, you at least got further with it than I did. I just found mine still in the box. :) If anyone's interested, it's yours. -- Keith -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From kmastin-PzQIwG9Jn9VAFePFGvp55w at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 29 22:12:02 2003 From: kmastin-PzQIwG9Jn9VAFePFGvp55w at public.gmane.org (Keith Mastin) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 17:12:02 -0500 (EST) Subject: Looking for Advice In-Reply-To: <1445.65.95.217.186.1069968866.squirrel-cSwQExXi3C0g59NOP9PCHBGZ6WaZejjh@public.gmane.org> References: <1227.65.95.217.186.1069966327.squirrel@host.bettermarkets.com> <1445.65.95.217.186.1069968866.squirrel@host.bettermarkets.com> Message-ID: <1448.216.138.194.32.1070143922.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> > I guess the first thing I should do is to start building a list of > firms around the GTA big enough to need support techs and whom use > Linux (I want to avoid going back to MS in a big way! :) ). DO you > (or anyone else) know of some listing of firms that have partially > or fully shifted towards Linux in the area? I can't see why such a > list would exist but I guess it doesn't hurt to ask. This would be a great sales tool to migrate existing businesses to *nix if it existed. I have some clients that I can ask if they would allow their names to be added to such a list if one were to be compiled. Good suggestion. -- Keith -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From rickl-ZACYGPecefkNbK0NzMECUg at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 29 22:50:24 2003 From: rickl-ZACYGPecefkNbK0NzMECUg at public.gmane.org (rickl-ZACYGPecefkNbK0NzMECUg at public.gmane.org) Date: 29 Nov 2003 22:50:24 -0000 Subject: [TorontoNUI] Whats new? Message-ID: <20031129225024.73317.qmail@wm0.netfirms.com> Maybe you have a point. I'll take suggestions into consideration. Regards, Rick Tomaschuk Just for your information: Toronto Area Novell Users Group -- aka TorontoNUI.ca, TANUG The [TorontoNUI] is good for email filters. > Message: Novell is a supporter of Linux. Toronto has an active >Novell User International Group, and provides many Linux resources. Novell is in the process of developing Linux resources while countering claims from SCO and dealing with other market forces. NUI is in the process of restructuring. Contact the NUI board of directors at: http://www.nuinet.com if you have any questions. Mention TorontoNUI. > interested in our activities, getting involved, or have questions > check us out at http://www.TorontoNUI.ca , or email me directly. your >announcements directed outside of TNUI. The most basic example is you >never identify what NUI stands for. If you would like me to suggest If you are interested in participating see the contact page and send $35.00CD donation to address posted. If you are serious about actively doing something to participate we may skip the $35.00 but we still need to consider financing from sponsors. Many TLUG members are familiar with TorontoNUI as I've been to a few meetings at UofT. I handed out a lot of free Novell and other stuff at a UofT meeting during the summer if you were there. I'll get more freebees when I can. Active members of TorontoNUI are hard to come by since this is all volunteer work. Many just scan the website and read periodic newsletters. We meet ocaisionally but with the Internet much of what is at meetings can be viewed in a browser. RickT Driving Force Technologies Ltd. Rick Tomaschuk Tel: 905-813-3036 Email: rickt-ZACYGPecefkNbK0NzMECUg at public.gmane.org Novell Resource: http://www.TorontoNUI.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 29 23:13:24 2003 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 18:13:24 -0500 (EST) Subject: IRC channel Message-ID: I've lurking in freenode.net's #toronto-lug for a few days. A bunch of cool 20-somethings seem to be squatting there. I did see Lennart too, but nobody else that I recognize. I suggest an anti-squat: any TLUGger on IRC anyway might as well join this channel. Perhaps we can get it back to LINUX things. No big deal -- I'm not asking for a crusade/jihad. Hugh Redelmeier hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org voice: +1 416 482-8253 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cgm-BjBj7/ohIX+w5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 29 23:48:57 2003 From: cgm-BjBj7/ohIX+w5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org (Chris MacDonald) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 18:48:57 -0500 Subject: IRC channel In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20031129234857.GA46431@anarchy.ca> On Sat, Nov 29, 2003 at 06:13:24PM -0500, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > I suggest an anti-squat: any TLUGger on IRC anyway might as well join > this channel. Perhaps we can get it back to LINUX things. > > No big deal -- I'm not asking for a crusade/jihad. THE TAKEOVER STARTS AT SUNSET!!! -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From bonnie-grKYUO1WUpSaMJb+Lgu22Q at public.gmane.org Sat Nov 29 23:46:30 2003 From: bonnie-grKYUO1WUpSaMJb+Lgu22Q at public.gmane.org (misterbonnie) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 17:46:30 -0600 (CST) Subject: IRC channel In-Reply-To: <20031129234857.GA46431-BjBj7/ohIX+w5LPnMra/2Q@public.gmane.org> References: <20031129234857.GA46431@anarchy.ca> Message-ID: On Sat, 29 Nov 2003, Chris MacDonald wrote: > On Sat, Nov 29, 2003 at 06:13:24PM -0500, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > > I suggest an anti-squat: any TLUGger on IRC anyway might as well join > > this channel. Perhaps we can get it back to LINUX things. > > > > No big deal -- I'm not asking for a crusade/jihad. > > > THE TAKEOVER STARTS AT SUNSET!!! roffle 18:57 * bonnie slaps dhr around a bit with a large trout > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 30 00:37:02 2003 From: henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org (Henry Spencer) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 19:37:02 -0500 (EST) Subject: Intel (was Re:GUI) In-Reply-To: <20031129212404.GA8176-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20031129212404.GA8176@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 29 Nov 2003, William Park wrote: > > Speak for yourself. Here they're running on AMD CPUs, plus a few > > other flavors... > > This is borderline amateurish. Intel gets royalty, for every AMD sold. References, please. My understanding is that the cross-licensing agreement between Intel and AMD was dissolved long ago, and there is nothing in current AMD CPUs that requires tithing to Intel. They most certainly are *NOT* making duplicates of Intel's designs -- the AMD ones are markedly better. Henry Spencer henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 30 01:19:49 2003 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 20:19:49 -0500 Subject: GUI In-Reply-To: <3FC90126.8030204-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <3FC6401C.4090709@alteeve.com> <20031129162509.GA2109@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <3FC90126.8030204@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20031130011949.GA17490@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Sat, Nov 29, 2003 at 03:27:18PM -0500, James Knott wrote: > Where on earth did you dig up that? DOS support in OS/2 2.0 and later > was and is excellent. I never came across a DOS program that wouldn't > work in it, though some required adjustment of settings. The DOS > problems were in the early days of OS/2 1.x, when MS was developing it. > When IBM took control at v 1.3, it was a much better product. One > might assume that MS had deliberately crippled it. So when exactly did OS/2 2.0 get released? As far as I remember it was around the time of Win 3.1, at which point there was already a decent number of windows 3.x programs around, and you could still run dos programs on dos of course. Besides OS/2 had as far as I could tell already built up a reputation as being incompatible with dos programs, which without good marketing to fix the general view of it, would have been hard to overcome. Besides, DOS never impressed me, neither did Windows, nor OS/2. Being and Amiga user, it wasn't until I installed Linux in 92 that I was impressed by an OS on a PC. Lennart Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 30 01:21:16 2003 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 20:21:16 -0500 Subject: GUI In-Reply-To: <20031129203140.GA356-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <200311271946.27714.fraser@wehave.net> <3FC6B487.5010502@rogers.com> <20031128024853.GA437@node1.opengeometry.net> <3FC7360A.1040705@rogers.com> <3FC75011.3000905@truxtar.com> <3FC7ECB7.5070701@rogers.com> <3FC8149D.9040006@truxtar.com> <20031129140127.D814C4038@cbbrowne.com> <20031129203140.GA356@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <20031130012116.GB17490@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Sat, Nov 29, 2003 at 03:31:40PM -0500, William Park wrote: > It's quite amusing to see all these cheap shots directed at Microsoft, > while leaving the hardware players (ie. Intel, IBM) alone. Whether it's > OS/2, Windows, DOS, or Linux, they're all running on Intel CPU. If > Microsoft's dominance is so bad, then Intel's position is worse by order > of magnitude. > > So far, Korean (federal) and German (municipal) government decided to > try Linux. This means Intel CPU, also. Where are the commies when you > really need them? Actually if they do start switching it means they can pick almost any architecture they want, but I suspect IA32 is going to be the cheapest in general. Lennart Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lists-Gb8Tj4xcA4YgsBAKwltoeQ at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 30 01:27:41 2003 From: lists-Gb8Tj4xcA4YgsBAKwltoeQ at public.gmane.org (Byron Q. Desnoyers Winmill) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 20:27:41 -0500 (EST) Subject: GUI In-Reply-To: <1367.216.138.194.32.1070142005.squirrel-16UnNR4aCrhlws70yGkXPA@public.gmane.org> References: <20031127175739.GA447@node1.opengeometry.net><3FC68335.3090805@rogers.com><200311271946.27714.fraser@wehave.net><3FC6B487.5010502@rogers.com><20031128024853.GA437@node1.opengeometry.net><3FC7360A.1040705@rogers.com><3FC75011.3000905@truxtar.com><3FC7ECB7.5070701@rogers.com><3FC8149D.9040006@truxtar.com> <20031129070822.7c292e59.joehill@sympatico.ca> <1367.216.138.194.32.1070142005.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> Message-ID: On Sat, 29 Nov 2003, Keith Mastin wrote: > consider this. What the courts have effectively done is tell other > vendors not to do what M$ is doing or has done to get where they are, > effectively sealing M$'s position as a market leader. If you are talking about business practices, that's the message. As for sealing Microsoft's business position: it was sealed anyway. The trend in hardware prices over the past few years clearly indicates that consumers want cheaper machines. There is no way that could happen if vendors had to pay for two operating system licenses, or if they had to pay a higher price per unit. The only way to get around that problem was to build the system from scratch, which isn't an option when consumers want to buy brand name products. It was too late by the time the DOJ sealed a deal with Microsoft to stop that practice. Most consumers wanted Windows at that point, because they equated computers with Windows (that was Microsoft's biggest triumph). It didn't matter how much press OS/2 recieved, just as it doesn't matter how much press Linux and Macintosh receive today. The only inroads will be with the computer literate segment of the market. Seeming as everybody likes to bring up their mother when it comes to usability, why don't I bring up my mother when it comes to marketability. She knew what OS/2 was, and I made sure that her software ran on it almost flawlessly. Every problem she bumped into was blamed on it not being Windows. (Even though I could reproduce every problem under Windows.) She knows what Mac OS is and has used older versions, yet she thought that Linux was Mac OS the first few times she used my computer -- which had IceWM at that point! Now this is a person who had OS/2, then Linux, then Mac OS, then NetBSD, then FreeBSD, rammed down her throat for the last seven years I lived at home. To this day she uses a Macintosh for her cookbook, and she was using a FreeBSD box for the internet just a couple of months ago. She didn't simply hear about this stuff, she lived through it. Yet she still identifies computers with Windows. Byron. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lists-Gb8Tj4xcA4YgsBAKwltoeQ at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 30 01:28:38 2003 From: lists-Gb8Tj4xcA4YgsBAKwltoeQ at public.gmane.org (Byron Q. Desnoyers Winmill) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 20:28:38 -0500 (EST) Subject: GUI In-Reply-To: <1152.216.138.194.32.1070131812.squirrel-16UnNR4aCrhlws70yGkXPA@public.gmane.org> References: <20031127175739.GA447@node1.opengeometry.net> <3FC68335.3090805@rogers.com><200311271946.27714.fraser@wehave.net> <3FC6B487.5010502@rogers.com> <20031128024853.GA437@node1.opengeometry.net> <3FC7360A.1040705@rogers.com><3FC75011.3000905@truxtar.com> <3FC7ECB7.5070701@rogers.com><3FC8149D.9040006@truxtar.com> <20031129062420.GA6065@pluto.bsdwebhosting.net><2736.216.138.194.32.1070097643.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> <1152.216.138.194.32.1070131812.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> Message-ID: On Sat, 29 Nov 2003, Keith Mastin wrote: > > I do not agree that they can be arbitrarily withdrawn. > October 1970? Trudeau imposed Martial Law, hundreds were detained without > arrest, very few were ever charged. I should have said, 'I do not agree that they should be arbitrarily withdrawn.' Reality and the ideal rarely coincide. > The fact that were are "granted" these "rights and freedoms" means that > if one is not "granted" them they do not exist. Are you suggesting that freedom cannot exist outside of a legal framework? I would hope not. Then again, I probably say that because I only accept governments as a lesser evil -- which is to say that there are people out there who crave unnecessary control over others, so it may as well be done in a self regulating institution. (Why else would governments be set up in several, ideally opposed, branches?) > You are confusing "rights and freedoms" with "the rule of law". The 2 are > notmutually exclusive, nor are they dependant on each other. I may be able to agree with you if you would explain how we could be granted rights and freedoms without the rule of law. (Though I can see how the rule of law doesn't imply rights and freedoms.) > The law is a binding contract on all individuals, which can only be broken > by government. People can, and do, break laws all of the time. In some cases, they can do so in front of a police officer (or some other government official) and expect little consequence. My understanding is that governments are also bound by those laws, unless they write themselves in as an exception. (I'm assuming that you are not talking about passing legislation, since both individuals and governments can create binding contracts.) > This is the purpose of the notwithstanding clause of the Charter of > rights and Freedoms. The notwithstanding clause is infrequently invoked and I was under the impression that was related to various levels and branches of government. > All that is really important is that the "appearance of justice" is > ensured and imposed. I don't understand what you mean by the "appearance of justice." > The whole idea here is that the courts have admitted that they cannot be > fair and just 100% of the time That should be obvious, since the notion of fair will vary from person to person. While this may cause me some pains, at least I am not forced to agree with some of the more reactionary members of society. Byron. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 30 01:30:00 2003 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 20:30:00 -0500 Subject: GUI In-Reply-To: <20031129170449.GD11552-9xiANKxwco42bRTacqR3/JR8nzhMnQZF/mqnPsBvoffFpvyHdVPjngC/G2K4zDHf@public.gmane.org> References: <20031127175739.GA447@node1.opengeometry.net> <3FC68335.3090805@rogers.com> <20031129162812.GB2109@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20031129170449.GD11552@hatefulsheep.ym.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> Message-ID: <20031130013000.GC17490@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Sat, Nov 29, 2003 at 12:04:49PM -0500, Taavi Burns wrote: > Warp 3.0 was rather fugly widget- and wm-wise. > > And writing multimedia apps for Linux and Windows are any better? Yes. Well Linux at least. I like it. Sound is pretty easy, graphics is too. Lots of nice free libraries. If you use SDL life becomes pretty easy actually. > I found this yesterday, and it totally made my day (hot on the heels > of the /. article about libcaca): > http://developer.apple.com/samplecode/Sample_Code/QuickTime/Goodies/ASCIIMoviePlayerSample/qtplyr.c.htm The OS X stuff is rather nice too, although I am not used to nextstep stuff (and certainly not ObjC) so it isn't what I would want to work on (Besides I don't have a Mac). Lennart Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From Kpanchoo-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 30 02:36:40 2003 From: Kpanchoo-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Kerry Panchoo) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 21:36:40 -0500 Subject: JOB: Software Developer: Linux Media Client/Server Message-ID: <3FC957B8.80100@rogers.com> Software Developer: Linux Media Client/Server The Company Sarolta develops Internet-based appliances, digital signage and remote management systems for the delivery of in-store advertising and interactive content. Our technologies combine embedded systems, flat screen displays, Internet and digital media technologies for fast and effective delivery of high quality content for advertising and promotions. The Position The development of Sarolta's media client and server applications. Requirements - C/C++, PHP, Java, XML, HTML, SQL, UNIX Shell Scripts - Red Hat Linux configuration and use - Mozilla and its plugin architecture - X-Windows, cron, ssh, rsync, httpd, mySql - Linux security, firewalls and VPNs - mplayer, xine, transcode, videolan - protocol development - MPEG 1, 2 and 4, divx, mjpeg, avi, quicktime, jpg, gif, png, video codecs, Macromedia Flash Send Resume to: Software Developer Job Sarolta Technologies Inc. 296 Richmond St. W Unit 401 Toronto ON M5V 1X2 or Email to: jobs-HMvRPAl1eopBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org with "Software Developer" in the subject line. *** Applicants local to the Greater Toronto Area only *** -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jzygmont-tEQKYFGiemxAYG7eUwYNkWD2FQJk+8+b at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 30 02:54:23 2003 From: jzygmont-tEQKYFGiemxAYG7eUwYNkWD2FQJk+8+b at public.gmane.org (Justin Zygmont) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 21:54:23 -0500 (EST) Subject: linux file attachments with outlook Message-ID: I was wondering if other people have noticed how incompatible MS Outlook is with file attachments using pine or some other linux email client. I was suprised that file attachments don't open in outlook when I sent them with pine. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cybervoyager-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 30 03:23:57 2003 From: cybervoyager-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (cybervoyager) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 22:23:57 -0500 Subject: OS2 Programmers References: <3FC6401C.4090709@alteeve.com> <20031129162509.GA2109@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <3FC90126.8030204@rogers.com> <20031130011949.GA17490@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <002901c3b6f1$63f8f720$65ae9d18@alpha> Yes but lets not forget that Microsofts Programmers did in fact do work on developing OS2 for IBM.. which they later pulled out of .. a fact that is not widely known. So the distinctions in programming source code is not as clear cut as most would like to believe. Bill Gates alliance with IBM was long standing for many years, a fact that today many forget about. Sure it was not an absolute alliance, but the point being that software developers and engineers worked for both companies. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lennart Sorensen" To: Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2003 8:19 PM Subject: Re: [TLUG]: GUI > On Sat, Nov 29, 2003 at 03:27:18PM -0500, James Knott wrote: > > Where on earth did you dig up that? DOS support in OS/2 2.0 and later > > was and is excellent. I never came across a DOS program that wouldn't > > work in it, though some required adjustment of settings. The DOS > > problems were in the early days of OS/2 1.x, when MS was developing it. > > When IBM took control at v 1.3, it was a much better product. One > > might assume that MS had deliberately crippled it. > > So when exactly did OS/2 2.0 get released? As far as I remember it was > around the time of Win 3.1, at which point there was already a decent > number of windows 3.x programs around, and you could still run dos > programs on dos of course. > > Besides OS/2 had as far as I could tell already built up a reputation as > being incompatible with dos programs, which without good marketing to > fix the general view of it, would have been hard to overcome. > > Besides, DOS never impressed me, neither did Windows, nor OS/2. Being > and Amiga user, it wasn't until I installed Linux in 92 that I was > impressed by an OS on a PC. > > Lennart Sorensen > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > > > -- > Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 7.0.203 / Virus Database: 261.3.2 - Release Date: 27/11/2003 > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 30 04:24:31 2003 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 23:24:31 -0500 Subject: GUI In-Reply-To: <20031130011949.GA17490-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <3FC6401C.4090709@alteeve.com> <20031129162509.GA2109@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <3FC90126.8030204@rogers.com> <20031130011949.GA17490@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <3FC970FF.8000908@rogers.com> Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Sat, Nov 29, 2003 at 03:27:18PM -0500, James Knott wrote: > >>Where on earth did you dig up that? DOS support in OS/2 2.0 and later >>was and is excellent. I never came across a DOS program that wouldn't >>work in it, though some required adjustment of settings. The DOS >>problems were in the early days of OS/2 1.x, when MS was developing it. >> When IBM took control at v 1.3, it was a much better product. One >>might assume that MS had deliberately crippled it. > > > So when exactly did OS/2 2.0 get released? As far as I remember it was > around the time of Win 3.1, at which point there was already a decent > number of windows 3.x programs around, and you could still run dos > programs on dos of course. OS/2 2.0 was released in April 1992. I believe it was out a bit before W3.1. Also, OS/2 2 and later was better at running DOS apps than Windows 3 was, particularly if memory management was involved. You could easily dial in as much of whatever type of memory management the app required, and it could be done on an individual app basis. > > Besides OS/2 had as far as I could tell already built up a reputation as > being incompatible with dos programs, which without good marketing to > fix the general view of it, would have been hard to overcome. V2 was very different from 1.x in many ways. > > Besides, DOS never impressed me, neither did Windows, nor OS/2. Being > and Amiga user, it wasn't until I installed Linux in 92 that I was > impressed by an OS on a PC. Prior to using a PC, I had worked on a VAX 11/780, so I also wasn't impressed with DOS and wanted something that could multitask. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 30 04:31:59 2003 From: cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org (cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 23:31:59 -0500 Subject: GUI In-Reply-To: Message from William Park of "Sat, 29 Nov 2003 15:31:40 EST." <20031129203140.GA356-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <3FC68335.3090805@rogers.com> <200311271946.27714.fraser@wehave.net> <3FC6B487.5010502@rogers.com> <20031128024853.GA437@node1.opengeometry.net> <3FC7360A.1040705@rogers.com> <3FC75011.3000905@truxtar.com> <3FC7ECB7.5070701@rogers.com> <3FC8149D.9040006@truxtar.com> <20031129140127.D814C4038@cbbrowne.com> <20031129203140.GA356@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <20031130043200.27EFB3FF2@cbbrowne.com> William Park wrote: > So far, Korean (federal) and German (municipal) government decided to > try Linux. This means Intel CPU, also. Where are the commies when you > really need them? Hmm? % ls /usr/src/linux/arch alpha cris ia64 mips parisc ppc64 s390x sparc x86_64 arm i386 m68k mips64 ppc s390 sh sparc64 Linux runs on at least 15 architectures NOT produced by Intel. -- "cbbrowne","@","acm.org" http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/linuxdistributions.html "Politics is not a bad profession. If you succeed there are many rewards, if you disgrace yourself you can always write a book." -- Ronald Reagan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 30 04:36:28 2003 From: cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org (cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 23:36:28 -0500 Subject: Intel (was Re:GUI) In-Reply-To: Message from Henry Spencer of "Sat, 29 Nov 2003 19:37:02 EST." References: Message-ID: <20031130043629.466F23FF2@cbbrowne.com> > On Sat, 29 Nov 2003, William Park wrote: > > > Speak for yourself. Here they're running on AMD CPUs, plus a few > > > other flavors... > > > > This is borderline amateurish. Intel gets royalty, for every AMD sold. > > References, please. My understanding is that the cross-licensing > agreement between Intel and AMD was dissolved long ago, and there is > nothing in current AMD CPUs that requires tithing to Intel. They most > certainly are *NOT* making duplicates of Intel's designs -- the AMD ones > are markedly better. I'd surely expect that the original contracts whereby AMD made 80386es have ended by now. The electronics industry is nonetheless rife with crosslicensing agreements surrounding respective sets of dueling patents. -- (reverse (concatenate 'string "gro.gultn" "@" "enworbbc")) http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/unix.html Honuphrius is a concupiscent exservicemajor who makes dishonest propositions to all. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 30 04:42:59 2003 From: cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org (cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 23:42:59 -0500 Subject: GUI In-Reply-To: Message from lsorense@csclub.uwaterloo.ca (Lennart Sorensen) of "Sat, 29 Nov 2003 20:21:16 EST." <20031130012116.GB17490-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <200311271946.27714.fraser@wehave.net> <3FC6B487.5010502@rogers.com> <20031128024853.GA437@node1.opengeometry.net> <3FC7360A.1040705@rogers.com> <3FC75011.3000905@truxtar.com> <3FC7ECB7.5070701@rogers.com> <3FC8149D.9040006@truxtar.com> <20031129140127.D814C4038@cbbrowne.com> <20031129203140.GA356@node1.opengeometry.net> <20031130012116.GB17490@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20031130044300.AF5D13FF2@cbbrowne.com> > On Sat, Nov 29, 2003 at 03:31:40PM -0500, William Park wrote: > > It's quite amusing to see all these cheap shots directed at Microsoft, > > while leaving the hardware players (ie. Intel, IBM) alone. Whether it's > > OS/2, Windows, DOS, or Linux, they're all running on Intel CPU. If > > Microsoft's dominance is so bad, then Intel's position is worse by order > > of magnitude. > > > > So far, Korean (federal) and German (municipal) government decided to > > try Linux. This means Intel CPU, also. Where are the commies when you > > really need them? > > Actually if they do start switching it means they can pick almost any > architecture they want, but I suspect IA32 is going to be the cheapest > in general. It is exceeding unfortunate that there are no vendors of reasonably-priced PPC motherboards, as that would make a fabulous alternative to IA-32. It is similarly unfortunate that nobody has gotten a Taiwanese or Korean manufacturer to build MIPS or StrongARM or SPARC motherboards at not-grievious prices. A $200 motherboard for any of these would provide a usefully interesting alternative to Intel. -- let name="cbbrowne" and tld="acm.org" in name ^ "@" ^ tld;; http://cbbrowne.com/info/rdbms.html Rules of the Evil Overlord #41. "Once my power is secure, I will destroy all those pesky time-travel devices." -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From scotta-cpI+UMyWUv9BDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 30 04:42:41 2003 From: scotta-cpI+UMyWUv9BDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Scott Allen) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 23:42:41 -0500 Subject: OS2 Programmers In-Reply-To: <002901c3b6f1$63f8f720$65ae9d18-ZK5pCpJID5Y@public.gmane.org>; from cybervoyager-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org on Sat, Nov 29, 2003 at 22:23:57 -0500 References: <3FC6401C.4090709@alteeve.com> <20031129162509.GA2109@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <3FC90126.8030204@rogers.com> <20031130011949.GA17490@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <002901c3b6f1$63f8f720$65ae9d18@alpha> Message-ID: <20031130044241.GE1531@localhost> On Sat Nov 29,2003 10:23:57 PM cybervoyager wrote: > Yes but lets not forget that Microsofts Programmers did in fact do > work on developing OS2 for IBM.. which they later pulled out of > .. a fact that is not widely known. Not only for IBM. They also sold it under their own name at first. -- ** Scott Allen scotta-cpI+UMyWUv9BDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org ** ** Toronto, Ontario, Canada ** -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From verbum-qazKcTl6WRFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 30 04:53:04 2003 From: verbum-qazKcTl6WRFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (verbum-qazKcTl6WRFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 04:53:04 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Toronto FreeNet stable now; wish it were co-op, tho Message-ID: Thanks to all of you who posted over the last 10 days or so on in response to my query about DSL ISP selection. The Toronto FreeNet people have been very nice about my flaky DSL, listening sympathetically while stressing that ultimatelly the problem is in the hands of upstream provider WizNet. My connection has been performing well for the last several days. It was good of several people to discuss IStop as a possible alternative to Toronto FreeNet. For what it's worth, Google turns up some pleasant material on IStop, putting that ISP into a rather favourable light. For a real blast, try the search term ((QUOTE))istop fun((/QUOTE)) and click on the resulting Google results-page link to material from a guy named Mendel. I'm going to try to STICK with Toronto FreeNet, keeping Istop in mind as a possible fallback if things deteriorate again. We do want Toronto FreeNet to succeeed. Incidentally, in the **BEST** of all possible worlds, Toronto FreeNet would be a co-op, owned and operated by members in the manner of a credit union, with enough commercial and technical muscle to arrange its own DSLAMs instead of buying from WizNet. Heck: if anything really cried out for a co-op structure, in the manner of the classical farmers' and fishermen's co-ops (or indeed of those big manufacturing co-ops in Mondragon, Spain), it's the ISP world. Think of it: an ISP that's Linux friendly, and has an explicit social charter, and even arranges things like hardware recycling among members! With its employees paid a modest living wage, rather than relegated to that oh-so-familiar and oh-so-demeaning world of volunteer work. If anyone wanted to try making this dream real, I'd do what I could to help out. Rapidly, Tom = Tom Karmo 416-971-6955 http://www.metascientia.com -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From taavi-LbuTpDkqzNzXI80/IeQp7B2eb7JE58TQ at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 30 04:56:20 2003 From: taavi-LbuTpDkqzNzXI80/IeQp7B2eb7JE58TQ at public.gmane.org (Taavi Burns) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 23:56:20 -0500 Subject: GUI In-Reply-To: <20031129204356.OYBL389421.fep03-mail.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com-9xB6k4dNltmkzIdawFaobA@public.gmane.org> References: <20031129203140.GA356@node1.opengeometry.net> <20031129204356.OYBL389421.fep03-mail.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com@pittlandctr8at> Message-ID: <20031130045620.GE12898@hatefulsheep.ym.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> On Sat, Nov 29, 2003 at 03:44:28PM -0500, DanG wrote: > Opterons and the Athlon 64. I wish that IBM would release a chipset or specs > for the mainboard manufacturers worldwide so we could buy G5 PowerPC cpu's > (which are really fast - but not at a cost point for most people) and not They have already released a reference board. In fact, they released it 2-3 years ago. Nobody seems to have taken up the offer and actually mass-produced them, though. http://www-3.ibm.com/chips/techlib/techlib.nsf/techdocs/79BE984407DFC29C87256A0A006B7210 -- taa /*eof*/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From c.f.a.johnson-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 30 05:45:32 2003 From: c.f.a.johnson-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Chris F.A. Johnson) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 00:45:32 -0500 (EST) Subject: Toronto FreeNet stable now; wish it were co-op, tho In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 29 Nov 2003 verbum-qazKcTl6WRFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org wrote: > Incidentally, in the **BEST** of all possible worlds, Toronto > FreeNet would be a co-op, owned and operated by members in the > manner of a credit union, It is owned by it's members. It is incorporated by the Province of Ontario as a not-for-profit corporation. > with enough commercial and technical muscle to arrange its own > DSLAMs instead of buying from WizNet. That would be nice. As it is, the TFN relies on the generosity of Wiznet for its bandwidth and co-location. > Heck: if anything really cried out for a co-op structure, in the > manner of the classical farmers' and fishermen's co-ops (or indeed > of those big manufacturing co-ops in Mondragon, Spain), it's the ISP > world. Indeed! > Think of it: an ISP that's Linux friendly, The TFN is Linux friendly, although it is running on FreeBSD (thanks to Dave Gilbert of Velocet, who donated a box running that OS as well as his and his employees' expertise). > and has an explicit social charter, There has been talk of a mission statement; a beginning of one is at . (The web site is woefully under-developed; other things have had priority over the last couple of years.) The by-laws are at . The letter patent should be there, too; I'll get them up ASAP. > and even arranges things like hardware recycling among members! This was done before, but is currently very limited due to lack of space. Development of this aspect would be welcome. > With its employees paid a modest living wage, rather than relegated > to that oh-so-familiar and oh-so-demeaning world of volunteer work. Tell me about it!!! > If anyone wanted to try making this dream real, I'd do what I could > to help out. Please do. The experience with the Free-Net has been that the vast majority of members are only interested in an inexpensive ISP. I'd like to see more involvement; suggestions are always welcome. -- Chris F.A. Johnson ================================================================= cfaj-uVmiyxGBW52XDw4h08c5KA at public.gmane.org http://cfaj.freeshell.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lists-Gb8Tj4xcA4YgsBAKwltoeQ at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 30 07:55:44 2003 From: lists-Gb8Tj4xcA4YgsBAKwltoeQ at public.gmane.org (Byron Q. Desnoyers Winmill) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 02:55:44 -0500 (EST) Subject: GUI In-Reply-To: <20031129203140.GA356-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <3FC68335.3090805@rogers.com> <200311271946.27714.fraser@wehave.net> <3FC6B487.5010502@rogers.com> <20031128024853.GA437@node1.opengeometry.net> <3FC7360A.1040705@rogers.com> <3FC75011.3000905@truxtar.com> <3FC7ECB7.5070701@rogers.com> <3FC8149D.9040006@truxtar.com> <20031129140127.D814C4038@cbbrowne.com> <20031129203140.GA356@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 29 Nov 2003, William Park wrote: > So far, Korean (federal) and German (municipal) government decided to > try Linux. This means Intel CPU, also. Where are the commies when you > really need them? Linux only runs on Intel processors? That's new to me. About 3/4 ths of the time, this computer runs Linux. The rest of the time, it runs another Unix implementation. I'm sure that others do the same, and I'm quite certain that they don't have the same processor as I. Then there are the people who use a non-Intel processor, with a very Intel-like instruction set. Does Intel deserve criticism? Maybe. Maybe not. It depends upon their business practices -- and I don't know enough about that to comment. As for why other people aren't commenting: it's probably because it's cheaper to replace an OS than it is to replace hardware. Hardware, after all, has an intrinsic cost. Most of the cost of software is bound up in labour, which makes it easier for people to share the fruits of their labour. Byron. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 30 12:10:09 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 07:10:09 -0500 Subject: GUI In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20031130071009.0efc3f3c.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Thu, 27 Nov 2003 09:40:30 -0500 "Hugh Reilly" wrote: > Good morning all! > > Quick question. Which is better, KDE or GNOME? Or is there something better? > Don't really wanna hear about those lesser "windows managers" whatevers. I'm > looking for state-of-the-art GUI paradise. Well, now that this thread has gone completely off the deep end, I must say I can't believe no one has mentioned RISC OS, which is "emulated" by the ROX desktop environment. I've never seen RISC OS in action myself, but it ROX desktop is any indication, it must have been some kinda wonderful. http://rox.sourceforge.net -- JoeHill ++ ICQ # 280779813 Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "There are three side effects of acid: enhanced long-term memory, decreased short-term memory, and I forget the third."-- Timothy Leary -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 30 13:23:45 2003 From: fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Fraser Campbell) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 08:23:45 -0500 Subject: GUI In-Reply-To: <20031129203140.GA356-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <3FC68335.3090805@rogers.com> <20031129140127.D814C4038@cbbrowne.com> <20031129203140.GA356@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <200311300823.46244.fraser@wehave.net> On November 29, 2003 03:31 pm, William Park wrote: > It's quite amusing to see all these cheap shots directed at Microsoft, > while leaving the hardware players (ie. Intel, IBM) alone. Whether it's > OS/2, Windows, DOS, or Linux, they're all running on Intel CPU. If Not true. My desktop Linux's have been mostly AMD in the past 3-5 years (K6-2 or Athlon), recently my work desktop was upgraded to P4 but when I get tired of my Athlon at home the most compelling upgrade at this point is the AMD Opteron (I doubt I'll upgrade for at least 2 yearst though, things may have changed by then). At various places of businesses I've run Linux on Sparc (Sun), MIPS (Cobalt), AMD (Cobalt and whitebox) and 486/Pentium (Dell/IBM or whitebox). I'm quite sure that I've used as many non-Intel CPUs as I have Intel CPUs. In the last year I've also used Snapgear VPN appliances which run Linux on Coldfire or SuperH processors; I'm pretty sure these processors are from Motorola and Hitachi (neither owned by Intel AFAIK). > So far, Korean (federal) and German (municipal) government decided to > try Linux. This means Intel CPU, also. Where are the commies when you > really need them? Not sure what planet you've landed from; this comment and several others reveal that you haven't been on ours for quite some time, perhaps you're running Linux 1.0 and haven't heard about any of the new releases? -- Fraser Campbell http://www.wehave.net/ Georgetown, Ontario, Canada Debian GNU/Linux -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From skuznets-WRMZ5ucGVl4BXFe83j6qeQ at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 30 14:39:24 2003 From: skuznets-WRMZ5ucGVl4BXFe83j6qeQ at public.gmane.org (Serge Kuznetsov) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 09:39:24 -0500 Subject: Toronto FreeNet stable now; wish it were co-op, tho References: Message-ID: <005801c3b74f$c025fbc0$0200000a@toybox> > Incidentally, in the **BEST** of all possible worlds, Toronto FreeNet would be > a co-op, owned and operated by members in the manner of a credit union, > with enough commercial and technical muscle to arrange its own DSLAMs > instead of buying from WizNet. Heck: if anything really cried out for a co-op > You are making BIG mistake thinking what DSLAMs are property of WizNet. DSLAMs owned by Bell, and all other ADSL providers just renting some user's ports on it. You can make the test. You can have at the same time connections to two or more different providers in the city ( for example FreeNet, IStop, and WizNet ), And you will have three ppp interfaces in this case. Ethernet concentrator on Bell's side will get your userid and based on realm ( @istop.com, @freenet.ca, @whatever ) will send request to specified provider's radius server, and if it's authorized by providrer's radius server it opens L2TP tunnel to that provider, and at the same time sends some accouning information about your connection to provider's radius accounting server. That's my two cents. > > Rapidly, > > > Tom = Tom Karmo > 416-971-6955 > http://www.metascientia.com > All the Best! Serge. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From anton-F0u+EriZ6ihBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 30 16:10:01 2003 From: anton-F0u+EriZ6ihBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Anton Markov) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 11:10:01 -0500 Subject: GUI In-Reply-To: <20031129070822.7c292e59.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <20031127175739.GA447@node1.opengeometry.net> <3FC68335.3090805@rogers.com> <200311271946.27714.fraser@wehave.net> <3FC6B487.5010502@rogers.com> <20031128024853.GA437@node1.opengeometry.net> <3FC7360A.1040705@rogers.com> <3FC75011.3000905@truxtar.com> <3FC7ECB7.5070701@rogers.com> <3FC8149D.9040006@truxtar.com> <20031129070822.7c292e59.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <3FCA1659.8070900@truxtar.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Just because some court run by lawyers and other people dependent on the government's laws for their money says something is illegal does not mean it is. Courts, unfortunately, discriminate against businesses while favoring the individuals. After all, it is the individuals who support the government, so the courts want to support the individuals. However, it is the businesses that support the economy, not the government. JoeHill wrote: | On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 22:38:05 -0500 | Anton Markov wrote: | | |>I completely understand what you are saying, but I don't see how that is |>illegal. | | | It doesn't matter whether *you* see it as illegal or not. Facts are facts. They | have already been found guilty, as I said, in several jurisdictions, by varying | degrees of "liberal" and "not so liberal" courts, of various and sundry illegal | business practices. | | They have yet, however, to be properly punished . | - -- Anton Markov <("anton" + "@" + "truxtar" + "." + "com")> GnuPGP Key fingerprint = 5546 A6E2 1FFB 9BB8 15C3 CE34 46B7 8D93 3AD1 44B4 ~ "The difference between insanity and genius is measured only by success." ~ - Some bad guy from 007 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQE/yhZZRreNkzrRRLQRArWhAJ9km9PpevWQ9qeimOEzadhUrZgSIQCaA18J D/ES5cK4++/JL4c9fDdOz6U= =6QH8 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From anton-F0u+EriZ6ihBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 30 16:29:46 2003 From: anton-F0u+EriZ6ihBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Anton Markov) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 11:29:46 -0500 Subject: GUI In-Reply-To: References: <20031127175739.GA447@node1.opengeometry.net> <3FC68335.3090805@rogers.com> <200311271946.27714.fraser@wehave.net> <3FC6B487.5010502@rogers.com> <20031128024853.GA437@node1.opengeometry.net> <3FC7360A.1040705@rogers.com> <3FC75011.3000905@truxtar.com> <3FC7ECB7.5070701@rogers.com> <3FC8149D.9040006@truxtar.com> Message-ID: <3FCA1AFA.5080709@truxtar.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Peter L. Peres wrote: | | The illegality consists in price dumping conditioned on non-competition. | The prices of M$ products vary such that they undercut the competition, | regardless of any losses they may incur. The prices are high when there is | no competition, and undercut the competition whenever there is any. Since | the products are mostly software in theory they can give them away for | free. But they don't do that. They just make them cheap enough that the | competition has no bread to eat, even if in theory this causes them to | lose money. It's non of your business whether Microsoft makes or looses money. Until you build your own multi-billion dollar empire, you have no right to criticize Bill Gate's business plan. Criticizing those more successful then ourselves is a sign of laziness and communism. And there is no known law in North America (I don't want to hear about some socialist country in Europe) that says it is illegal to make your competition loose money. That's the whole point of competition - some win, some loose. | Worse, they condition this on non-sale of competitive products. This | breaks the laws on allowed pricing policy in at least half the civilized | world as I know it. You mean the half of the world that lives under a communist/socialist regime where everyone is essentially on welfare letting their life be run by beurocrats? You want pricing policy? The USSR had plenty of that. In 1919-1921 that led to a famine that cost nearly two million lives. And this happened again, and again, and again. | Worse again, after the competition folds, the prices | double or triple. This is why price dumping is illegal. It can put a | competitor with deep pockets (or with artificially very cheap labor) Where did those deep pockets come from. Maybe they where created before the company becomes a monopoly through legal practices? How many people found employment and how many sub-contractors and suppliers (construction firms, hardware manufacturers, office supplies, ...) received business while these "deep pockets" where created? Cheap labor? I think that it is up to every individual to decide how much they want to work for. | in | the monopolist position within a few years, while causing countless | businesses to fold and loss of tax income from such businesses plus | unemployment that cannot be sustained (for lack of a tax base) on a | massive scale. | ... The whole idea of sustaining unemployment through tax money, and the very idea of taxes is flawed. But lets not get into that. | Fri in most civilized places there are solid rules about | published prices and the obligation of companies to stand by them. This | means *both* upwards *and* downwards adjustments are not allowed (within | reasonable limits) once the prices are published. Can you name these "civilized" places? | ... | Remember taxes are percentual and such 'schemes' can be considered | tax evasion attempts, besides being price dumping. The taxation shifts | from retail taxation to corporate income taxation, which saves the company | a bundle. Are you supporting the idea of taxes? What has this country come to? | Several attempts to do such things can be seen with ice cream brands, | packaged food brands in supermarkets etc. They only work in places where | there are totalitarian state monopolies or 19th century-style 'free | exchange' capitalism with huge monopolists eliminating competition from | the market and fixing prices at will. Most are illegal when the price | dumping item enters the equation. Ianal. "Free exchange" and "totalitarian state monopolies" are complete opposites. The fact is that in totalitarian state monopolies if you don't buy the government's product, someone comes to your door with a gun. In this country it's usually the people who point guns at the suppliers. - -- Anton Markov <("anton" + "@" + "truxtar" + "." + "com")> GnuPGP Key fingerprint = 5546 A6E2 1FFB 9BB8 15C3 CE34 46B7 8D93 3AD1 44B4 ~ "The difference between insanity and genius is measured only by success." ~ - Some bad guy from 007 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQE/yhr6RreNkzrRRLQRAmniAJ91cSDJbsRws5ZKaw+xPSma5CSf8ACcDZqr 3xYJCEwj8n9K9BmkNNZanMs= =PzuJ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From anton-F0u+EriZ6ihBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 30 16:38:02 2003 From: anton-F0u+EriZ6ihBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Anton Markov) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 11:38:02 -0500 Subject: GUI In-Reply-To: <3FC81EAD.9030205-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <20031127175739.GA447@node1.opengeometry.net> <3FC68335.3090805@rogers.com> <200311271946.27714.fraser@wehave.net> <3FC6B487.5010502@rogers.com> <20031128024853.GA437@node1.opengeometry.net> <3FC7360A.1040705@rogers.com> <3FC75011.3000905@truxtar.com> <3FC7ECB7.5070701@rogers.com> <3FC8149D.9040006@truxtar.com> <3FC81EAD.9030205@rogers.com> Message-ID: <3FCA1CEA.60702@truxtar.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 You missed the whole point: James Knott wrote: | | Ever hear of restraint of trade? No. Not in a capitalist country. | | Then MS started pushing Windows and telling computer vendors | that if they wanted DOS, they had to include Windows. This is forced | bundling. If computer vendors didn't take the deal, they didn't have an | OS to sell with their computers. And this was Microsoft's fault? Why should Microsoft be responsible that vendors didn't want to sell their products, and didn't have an alternative. What about Linux? Mac? OS/2? If those weren't real alternatives, than maybe at that time Windows *was* the best OS to sell? | Imagine | if Shell forced the car makers to pay them for the gas in the tank of | each new car, even if the gas came from another company. Guess who's | gas would be in those tanks? Or Shell wouldn't let them put any Shell gas in at all? Then they would just not put in any Shell gas. And if Shell gas was cheaper and better than other gas, then maybe it *would* be in every tank. | | Then, as I mentioned the computer vendors were forced to drop support | for other than Windows, if they wished to receive competitive prices for | Windows. This is where extortion becomes evident. The sources I | listed, include several examples. Like I said, Microsoft can decide whether or not they want to sell their products at a particular price. The reason for the decision does not matter. | It got to the point where computer vendors had to play by MS terms or | not at all. The result was that any company that tried to offer an | alternative was punished in a manner that could put them out of business. That's why it's called "competition". A few best (business plan wise) win; everyone else looses or is left behind. | There was also the phony "incompatibility" with DR-DOS, that MS | deliberately put into Windows 3. There was a similar problem with the | MSCDEX CD-ROM drivers, that would check to see if they were being run in | OS/2 and then crap out. Car makers do this all the time. | As I said, read those books and you might have a different view. That's why I have a different point of view from other people - I read books. The kind written by successful entrepreneurs. - -- Anton Markov <("anton" + "@" + "truxtar" + "." + "com")> GnuPGP Key fingerprint = 5546 A6E2 1FFB 9BB8 15C3 CE34 46B7 8D93 3AD1 44B4 ~ "The difference between insanity and genius is measured only by success." ~ - Some bad guy from 007 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQE/yhzqRreNkzrRRLQRAhjkAJ9eDAdDCi8vYkCWNzxE3VnGDOiIOACggwyh NeCr3BhSUWFc/oMfZJAU/ZU= =angT -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From anton-F0u+EriZ6ihBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 30 16:47:16 2003 From: anton-F0u+EriZ6ihBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Anton Markov) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 11:47:16 -0500 Subject: GUI In-Reply-To: <20031129062420.GA6065-Ko7VQgJ6otXK2ngFqW3eKNllqMFDOoLF@public.gmane.org> References: <20031127175739.GA447@node1.opengeometry.net> <3FC68335.3090805@rogers.com> <200311271946.27714.fraser@wehave.net> <3FC6B487.5010502@rogers.com> <20031128024853.GA437@node1.opengeometry.net> <3FC7360A.1040705@rogers.com> <3FC75011.3000905@truxtar.com> <3FC7ECB7.5070701@rogers.com> <3FC8149D.9040006@truxtar.com> <20031129062420.GA6065@pluto.bsdwebhosting.net> Message-ID: <3FCA1F14.4070909@truxtar.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Byron Desnoyers Winmill wrote: | | I will disagree with this point for a single reason: people should not | have the right to sign away their rights. Many laws support this notion, | primarily because one party can exploit the needs and desires of another | (eg. the Tenant Protection Act). "He who can destroy a thing has ultimate control over it." ~ From "Dune" We are only in control of our own rights if we can give them up. Forcing rights onto someone is no better than taking rights away. | | It may not be able to guarantee that the choice exists, but it should | guarantee that somebody can present those choices -- without facing undue | discrimination. I agree. | | Some people have a hard time seeing Microsoft as a charitable company. | IIRC, it didn't make a major charitable contribution until the mid-90's, | Some dontations were parts of settlements, and the value of certain | contributions (eg. software) don't reflect the cost to Microsoft. It's the value the donation provides to the recipient that matters, not the cost to the entity making the donation. If I repair computers, and I provide a free computer repair service for a local non-profit organization, does it not count as a donation? It doesn't cost me money to fix the computers. | | Byron. | -- | The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org | TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns | How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml - -- Anton Markov <("anton" + "@" + "truxtar" + "." + "com")> GnuPGP Key fingerprint = 5546 A6E2 1FFB 9BB8 15C3 CE34 46B7 8D93 3AD1 44B4 ~ "The difference between insanity and genius is measured only by success." ~ - Some bad guy from 007 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQE/yh8TRreNkzrRRLQRAgCFAJ0en5zdKOYeO2jt2o/ramaoIHgxzQCeMjft vhZgXJWDO69uZI/pEJbICbQ= =Zj/1 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 30 17:16:00 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 12:16:00 -0500 Subject: GUI In-Reply-To: <3FCA1AFA.5080709-F0u+EriZ6ihBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20031127175739.GA447@node1.opengeometry.net> <3FC68335.3090805@rogers.com> <200311271946.27714.fraser@wehave.net> <3FC6B487.5010502@rogers.com> <20031128024853.GA437@node1.opengeometry.net> <3FC7360A.1040705@rogers.com> <3FC75011.3000905@truxtar.com> <3FC7ECB7.5070701@rogers.com> <3FC8149D.9040006@truxtar.com> <3FCA1AFA.5080709@truxtar.com> Message-ID: <20031130121600.232f9f7b.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Sun, 30 Nov 2003 11:29:46 -0500 Anton Markov wrote: > | Worse, they condition this on non-sale of competitive products. This > | breaks the laws on allowed pricing policy in at least half the civilized > | world as I know it. > You mean the half of the world that lives under a communist/socialist > regime where everyone is essentially on welfare letting their life be > run by beurocrats? No, like he said, in the part of the world where we at least pay lip-service to playing by the rules, so that the economy doesn't fall apart under the weight of *corporate bureaucracy*, ie. monopoly. > You want pricing policy? The USSR had plenty of that. In 1919-1921 > that led to a famine that cost nearly two million lives. And this > happened again, and again, and again. Try to at least stay in the same century, here, Anton. We're not talking about telling Microsoft *exactly how much to charge for their products*, we're talking about asking them nicely to play by a certain set of very liberal rules regarding competition and business conduct, you know, the kind that makes it illegal to trade on insider information or embezzle money from your own corp, like our erstwhile friend Lord "Tubby" Black has been caught doing. Or are you an Anarchist, eschewing all legal frameworks for a truly free market? It's one or the other, bubba. > | Worse again, after the competition folds, the prices > | double or triple. This is why price dumping is illegal. It can put a > | competitor with deep pockets (or with artificially very cheap labor) > Where did those deep pockets come from. Maybe they where created before > the company becomes a monopoly through legal practices? How many people > found employment and how many sub-contractors and suppliers > (construction firms, hardware manufacturers, office supplies, ...) > received business while these "deep pockets" where created? ...and how many businesses were driven under and people unemployed while Microsoft shut down competitor after competitor with illegal business practices. What's wrong, Anton, Bill Gates your lover or something? -- JoeHill ++ ICQ # 280779813 Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "The US is our trading partner, our neighbour, our ally and our friend... and sometimes we'd like to give them such a smack!"-- Rick Mercer -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 30 17:24:30 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 12:24:30 -0500 Subject: GUI In-Reply-To: <3FCA1659.8070900-F0u+EriZ6ihBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20031127175739.GA447@node1.opengeometry.net> <3FC68335.3090805@rogers.com> <200311271946.27714.fraser@wehave.net> <3FC6B487.5010502@rogers.com> <20031128024853.GA437@node1.opengeometry.net> <3FC7360A.1040705@rogers.com> <3FC75011.3000905@truxtar.com> <3FC7ECB7.5070701@rogers.com> <3FC8149D.9040006@truxtar.com> <20031129070822.7c292e59.joehill@sympatico.ca> <3FCA1659.8070900@truxtar.com> Message-ID: <20031130122430.124b65ee.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Sun, 30 Nov 2003 11:10:01 -0500 Anton Markov wrote: > Courts, unfortunately, discriminate against businesses > while favoring the individuals. ...are you high on crack at the moment? That's the only explanation, other than a complete lack of knowledge about legal history, I can come up with for such an absurd statement. The recent case in which a court in the U.S. *actually sided against the corporation's unfettered right to conduct business as they saw fit, in favour of individual shareholders*, has sent shockwaves through the legal system there, and here in Canada too, since it is so unprecedented for a court to intercede in, or even comment on, the decision-making of a corporate board. Again I refer to Lord "Tubby" Black and his cronies in the U.S., specifically one Mr. Perle, who is *finally* being called on his dubious business dealings after decades of inattention. -- JoeHill ++ ICQ # 280779813 Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness."-- John Kenneth Galbraith -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 30 20:12:56 2003 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter L. Peres) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 22:12:56 +0200 (IST) Subject: linux file attachments with outlook In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 29 Nov 2003, Justin Zygmont wrote: > I was wondering if other people have noticed how incompatible MS Outlook > is with file attachments using pine or some other linux email client. I > was suprised that file attachments don't open in outlook when I sent them > with pine. Do you have a recent pine ? I have not seen this problem before. Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 30 19:57:29 2003 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter L. Peres) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 21:57:29 +0200 (IST) Subject: GUI In-Reply-To: <20031129203140.GA356-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <3FC68335.3090805@rogers.com> <200311271946.27714.fraser@wehave.net> <3FC6B487.5010502@rogers.com> <20031128024853.GA437@node1.opengeometry.net> <3FC7360A.1040705@rogers.com> <3FC75011.3000905@truxtar.com> <3FC7ECB7.5070701@rogers.com> <3FC8149D.9040006@truxtar.com> <20031129140127.D814C4038@cbbrowne.com> <20031129203140.GA356@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 29 Nov 2003, William Park wrote: > So far, Korean (federal) and German (municipal) government decided to > try Linux. This means Intel CPU, also. Where are the commies when you > really need them? This is not to do with commies. Some of us aren't. And Intel is not a real monopoly. I have never owned an Intel made cpu since I had an XT (AMD8088), and till now (still on AMD and will likely stay on AMD). I do not have a problem with HW vendors because their price wars are bound to physical products and are not as amenable to dirty marketing tricks as software. They have to keep the cash flowing or those wafer fabs will have to be closed so competition works there, even if it's cutthroat many times. Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 30 20:08:30 2003 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter L. Peres) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 22:08:30 +0200 (IST) Subject: Intel (was Re:GUI) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 29 Nov 2003, Henry Spencer wrote: > On Sat, 29 Nov 2003, William Park wrote: > > > Speak for yourself. Here they're running on AMD CPUs, plus a few > > > other flavors... > > > > This is borderline amateurish. Intel gets royalty, for every AMD sold. > > References, please. My understanding is that the cross-licensing > agreement between Intel and AMD was dissolved long ago, and there is > nothing in current AMD CPUs that requires tithing to Intel. They most > certainly are *NOT* making duplicates of Intel's designs -- the AMD ones > are markedly better. I understand that AMD had to reverse engineer Intel chips (in the sense of functional reverse engineering) for quite a while before things settled into the current state, with only 'minor' differences in features and setup. Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 30 21:03:15 2003 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 16:03:15 -0500 Subject: Intel (was Re:GUI) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3FCA5B13.8000507@rogers.com> Peter L. Peres wrote: > On Sat, 29 Nov 2003, Henry Spencer wrote: > > >>On Sat, 29 Nov 2003, William Park wrote: >> >>>>Speak for yourself. Here they're running on AMD CPUs, plus a few >>>>other flavors... >>> >>>This is borderline amateurish. Intel gets royalty, for every AMD sold. >> >>References, please. My understanding is that the cross-licensing >>agreement between Intel and AMD was dissolved long ago, and there is >>nothing in current AMD CPUs that requires tithing to Intel. They most >>certainly are *NOT* making duplicates of Intel's designs -- the AMD ones >>are markedly better. > > > I understand that AMD had to reverse engineer Intel chips (in the sense of > functional reverse engineering) for quite a while before things settled > into the current state, with only 'minor' differences in features and > setup. At one time, back in the 8080 & 8088 days, AMD licenced from Intel, as did a couple of other companies. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 30 21:16:55 2003 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 16:16:55 -0500 Subject: GUI In-Reply-To: <3FCA1CEA.60702-F0u+EriZ6ihBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20031127175739.GA447@node1.opengeometry.net> <3FC68335.3090805@rogers.com> <200311271946.27714.fraser@wehave.net> <3FC6B487.5010502@rogers.com> <20031128024853.GA437@node1.opengeometry.net> <3FC7360A.1040705@rogers.com> <3FC75011.3000905@truxtar.com> <3FC7ECB7.5070701@rogers.com> <3FC8149D.9040006@truxtar.com> <3FC81EAD.9030205@rogers.com> <3FCA1CEA.60702@truxtar.com> Message-ID: <3FCA5E47.3010700@rogers.com> No I didn't. The point is, that there are laws to prevent companies with market control, from doing things that prevent competition. Some of what MS did amounts to extortion, which is always illegal, whether in business or not. Anton Markov wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > You missed the whole point: > > James Knott wrote: > | > | Ever hear of restraint of trade? > No. Not in a capitalist country. > | > | Then MS started pushing Windows and telling computer vendors > | that if they wanted DOS, they had to include Windows. This is forced > | bundling. If computer vendors didn't take the deal, they didn't have an > | OS to sell with their computers. > And this was Microsoft's fault? Why should Microsoft be responsible > that vendors didn't want to sell their products, and didn't have an > alternative. What about Linux? Mac? OS/2? If those weren't real > alternatives, than maybe at that time Windows *was* the best OS to sell? > > | Imagine > | if Shell forced the car makers to pay them for the gas in the tank of > | each new car, even if the gas came from another company. Guess who's > | gas would be in those tanks? > Or Shell wouldn't let them put any Shell gas in at all? Then they would > just not put in any Shell gas. And if Shell gas was cheaper and better > than other gas, then maybe it *would* be in every tank. > > | > | Then, as I mentioned the computer vendors were forced to drop support > | for other than Windows, if they wished to receive competitive prices for > | Windows. This is where extortion becomes evident. The sources I > | listed, include several examples. > Like I said, Microsoft can decide whether or not they want to sell their > products at a particular price. The reason for the decision does not > matter. > > | It got to the point where computer vendors had to play by MS terms or > | not at all. The result was that any company that tried to offer an > | alternative was punished in a manner that could put them out of business. > That's why it's called "competition". A few best (business plan wise) > win; everyone else looses or is left behind. > > | There was also the phony "incompatibility" with DR-DOS, that MS > | deliberately put into Windows 3. There was a similar problem with the > | MSCDEX CD-ROM drivers, that would check to see if they were being run in > | OS/2 and then crap out. > Car makers do this all the time. > > | As I said, read those books and you might have a different view. > That's why I have a different point of view from other people - I read > books. The kind written by successful entrepreneurs. > > - -- > Anton Markov <("anton" + "@" + "truxtar" + "." + "com")> > > GnuPGP Key fingerprint = > 5546 A6E2 1FFB 9BB8 15C3 CE34 46B7 8D93 3AD1 44B4 > > ~ "The difference between insanity and genius is measured only by success." > ~ - Some bad guy from 007 > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) > Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org > > iD8DBQE/yhzqRreNkzrRRLQRAhjkAJ9eDAdDCi8vYkCWNzxE3VnGDOiIOACggwyh > NeCr3BhSUWFc/oMfZJAU/ZU= > =angT > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 30 21:40:16 2003 From: henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org (Henry Spencer) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 16:40:16 -0500 (EST) Subject: Intel (was Re:GUI) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 30 Nov 2003, Peter L. Peres wrote: > > nothing in current AMD CPUs that requires tithing to Intel. They most > > certainly are *NOT* making duplicates of Intel's designs -- the AMD ones > > are markedly better. > > I understand that AMD had to reverse engineer Intel chips (in the sense of > functional reverse engineering) for quite a while before things settled > into the current state, with only 'minor' differences in features and > setup. Yep, but that wasn't a question of discovering Intel's implementation methods (or at least, not *primarily* that), but rather a question of getting enough information to write a complete and precise specification of the user-visible behavior, something Intel had quietly neglected to do for its fancier CPUs. If your aim is to be "bug-for-bug compatible" with (e.g.) a Pentium(*), you need to understand its behavior in great detail. (* Well, okay, there were one or two bugs they didn't duplicate... I recall a hilarious AMD ad offering 100 reasons to use their CPUs; circa number 97 was "Can do hard mathematical problems, like division.") Henry Spencer henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 30 21:22:10 2003 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter L. Peres) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 23:22:10 +0200 (IST) Subject: GUI In-Reply-To: <3FCA1AFA.5080709-F0u+EriZ6ihBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20031127175739.GA447@node1.opengeometry.net> <3FC68335.3090805@rogers.com> <200311271946.27714.fraser@wehave.net> <3FC6B487.5010502@rogers.com> <20031128024853.GA437@node1.opengeometry.net> <3FC7360A.1040705@rogers.com> <3FC75011.3000905@truxtar.com> <3FC7ECB7.5070701@rogers.com> <3FC8149D.9040006@truxtar.com> <3FCA1AFA.5080709@truxtar.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 30 Nov 2003, Anton Markov wrote: > | The illegality consists in price dumping conditioned on non-competition. > | The prices of M$ products vary such that they undercut the competition, > | regardless of any losses they may incur. The prices are high when there is > | no competition, and undercut the competition whenever there is any. Since > | the products are mostly software in theory they can give them away for > | free. But they don't do that. They just make them cheap enough that the > | competition has no bread to eat, even if in theory this causes them to > | lose money. > It's non of your business whether Microsoft makes or looses money. > Until you build your own multi-billion dollar empire, you have no right > to criticize Bill Gate's business plan. Criticizing those more > successful then ourselves is a sign of laziness and communism. > > And there is no known law in North America (I don't want to hear about > some socialist country in Europe) that says it is illegal to make your > competition loose money. That's the whole point of competition - some > win, some loose. I don't care if or how anybody makes money as long as they do not break the laws, and do not cause massive upheaval elsewhere. In NA price dumping is illegal. Right NOW (this week or the last one) the US was passing laws to impose duties on imports from China, on TVs I think. In NA laws are, have been, and will be passed, which impose duties and quotas on imports from other countries, to prevent 'price dumping' and 'trade imbalance'. If they don't care about who makes money how and who is dumping prices, then why do they pass these laws, please ? Before you judge others clarify what exactly you are defining and defending please. > | Worse, they condition this on non-sale of competitive products. This > | breaks the laws on allowed pricing policy in at least half the civilized > | world as I know it. > You mean the half of the world that lives under a communist/socialist > regime where everyone is essentially on welfare letting their life be > run by beurocrats? That is not the way it works. It's more like the black market used to feed, employ and clothe about 60% of the population. Now that it's no longer called black, but free, it employs, feeds, and clothes 80%. The poor sods who zealously eliminated the 'black market' entirely are starving now. > You want pricing policy? The USSR had plenty of that. In 1919-1921 > that led to a famine that cost nearly two million lives. And this > happened again, and again, and again. Yep. See my response to the first pararagraph. Your free trade champion is passing anti-free trade laws right now, at this moment, and is p*-ing off China. It does this and has been doing this with steel, cars, electronics, oil, food and a couple more things I forget now, with more countries than you can shake a stick at, since at least the 1960's on a big scale. And it will keep doing this. I don't see a problem with it, there are far worse things out there, but I put a stop at hypochrysy. They are not hiding that they are doing it. Why are you ignoring it ? Because it is convenient in this discussion ? > | Worse again, after the competition folds, the prices > | double or triple. This is why price dumping is illegal. It can put a > | competitor with deep pockets (or with artificially very cheap labor) > Where did those deep pockets come from. Maybe they where created before > the company becomes a monopoly through legal practices? How many people > found employment and how many sub-contractors and suppliers > (construction firms, hardware manufacturers, office supplies, ...) > received business while these "deep pockets" where created? > > Cheap labor? I think that it is up to every individual to decide how > much they want to work for. Yes, that's the point. A certain very populous country offers their citizens anything they want, as long as it's not money or wealth or freedom, the alternative being a hole in the head of flattening under tank threads, or permanent employment in a stone quarry where they get to disassemble granite mountains using worn-out teaspoons. It just so happens that the wages are extremely low and stay that way there, so their products are extremely cheap and undermining everyone else's prices, where wages are not so low. Your favorite free trade champion is passing laws against this *price dumping* *NOW*. Incidentally they call it 'trade deficit'. Funny, maybe they can't afford to buy US products for some reason. I wonder why. Incidentally I greatly admire that populous country's people and its industriousness and inventivity. My problem is with their present form of government, and with the way their price dumping affects local industry (including mine) *here*, not in NA. And *we* do *not* pass laws for protectionist duties in despite of everyone here going to the dogs. Also why is there no 'trade imbalance' with the second most populous country in the world ? The third ? The fourth ? Maybe because market forces work and keep this 'trade balance' somewhat balanced ? As in, people make money and spend it on products and services in a commesurate way ? > | in > | the monopolist position within a few years, while causing countless > | businesses to fold and loss of tax income from such businesses plus > | unemployment that cannot be sustained (for lack of a tax base) on a > | massive scale. > | ... > The whole idea of sustaining unemployment through tax money, and the > very idea of taxes is flawed. But lets not get into that. Sorry, let's. In any functioning capitalist economy a certain percentage of the workforce will be unemployed, by will or otherwise. Some of them will compete for existing and new jobs. Unemployment 'benefits' (whoever made that word up ?!) are a form of insurance that is paid for in small installments by taxes and returns in small gobs as 'benefits' when needed. It prevents a lot of individuals from begging on street corners while looking for something else. The fact that taxes are misused a lot for a lot of things has nothing to do with this. I would prefer to have a private (tax free!) fund where I can put money to be used in case I will be unemployed. This is not an available option here. After all, you don't need a pension fund do you ? So why have one (fyi I haven't got one) ? And why is it taxed ?!! > | Fri in most civilized places there are solid rules about > | published prices and the obligation of companies to stand by them. This > | means *both* upwards *and* downwards adjustments are not allowed (within > | reasonable limits) once the prices are published. > Can you name these "civilized" places? The UK for example, and most of Europe. And here (to a lesser extent - we are more like America). F.ex. shops are obliged by law to put the price of goods on all displayed goods. Catalogs must contain prices, etc, and the prices are binding. They can rebate up to a point and they can make it more expensive up to a point, without changing the displayed prices, but anything beyond that done long enough will land them in claims court (ianal) and in the newspapers. F.ex. customers give HP printers a wide berth since the ink price thing. HP have changed their pricing and they are now in line with others, but that scandal stuck for a while. They make good printers, but the scandal stuck and must have stung their sales. In the UK there are several smaller scandals wrt. f.ex. computer firms publishing prices for certain systems with certain components and then sending something else instead, several times a week. They can end up in court too. See (plenty of) articles in PC Magazine UK and elsewhere. The price: @call kind of pricing where you get charged by the length of your nose and the price of your shoes and the make of your watch and car may be very popular in your parts, but it is not here (not that businesses aren't doing it - it's just that there is some form of balance). And people prefer to do business with firms where they can compare prices and see up front what they get. It's a free market thing, you see ? Fair competition and all that. > | ... > | Remember taxes are percentual and such 'schemes' can be considered > | tax evasion attempts, besides being price dumping. The taxation shifts > | from retail taxation to corporate income taxation, which saves the company > | a bundle. > Are you supporting the idea of taxes? What has this country come to? Which country ? I pay probably 50% more taxes than you and I don't like it at all, but not to the point where I'd stop doing it entirely (although I am tempted badly every time I read a newspaper or listen to the news). > | Several attempts to do such things can be seen with ice cream brands, > | packaged food brands in supermarkets etc. They only work in places where > | there are totalitarian state monopolies or 19th century-style 'free > | exchange' capitalism with huge monopolists eliminating competition from > | the market and fixing prices at will. Most are illegal when the price > | dumping item enters the equation. Ianal. > > "Free exchange" and "totalitarian state monopolies" are complete > opposites. The fact is that in totalitarian state monopolies if you > don't buy the government's product, someone comes to your door with a > gun. In this country it's usually the people who point guns at the > suppliers. Free exchange in the 19th century monopolist capital style and government monopolies are one and the same thing. You don't believe that Lenin & Co invented that system, do you ? They used and adapted well known things. Company town ? Company shops ? Company men ? Exclusive rights to a continent or an island ? Slavery ? Rings a bell ? They skipped the great depression because they did not have a stock market. They had some other home-made depressions instead, managed to predate and outnumber Hitler (this ends the thread) in killings and deportations, and developed the Company Town (Country) idea to an unprecedented scale. Sorry for the long post, Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From anton-F0u+EriZ6ihBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 30 22:13:54 2003 From: anton-F0u+EriZ6ihBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Anton Markov) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 17:13:54 -0500 Subject: GUI In-Reply-To: <20031130122430.124b65ee.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <20031127175739.GA447@node1.opengeometry.net> <3FC68335.3090805@rogers.com> <200311271946.27714.fraser@wehave.net> <3FC6B487.5010502@rogers.com> <20031128024853.GA437@node1.opengeometry.net> <3FC7360A.1040705@rogers.com> <3FC75011.3000905@truxtar.com> <3FC7ECB7.5070701@rogers.com> <3FC8149D.9040006@truxtar.com> <20031129070822.7c292e59.joehill@sympatico.ca> <3FCA1659.8070900@truxtar.com> <20031130122430.124b65ee.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <3FCA6BA2.1030707@truxtar.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Hello everyone, I am sorry that this discussion has gone so off topic. I should have never continued this discussion when I noticed it going off to political grounds. It's just that I am tired of seeing "Microsoft is evil" every five messages. I know it falls under "Linux advocacy", but this is a technical list so let's keep the discussion on technical things. I love seeing links to new proof about the advantages of switching to Linux. Let's keep it at that. If anyone would like to continue the current discussion, let's do it off the list. Thanks. JoeHill wrote: | ...are you high on crack at the moment? That's the only explanation, other than | a complete lack of knowledge about legal history, I can come up with for such an | absurd statement. Perhaps I have not researched the topic as throughly as you have. Now that I re-read my own message I realize that I was exadurating. PS. How do you change the subject of a thread (ex. "Re: Intel (was Re: [TLUG]: GUI)")? - -- Anton Markov <("anton" + "@" + "truxtar" + "." + "com")> GnuPGP Key fingerprint = 5546 A6E2 1FFB 9BB8 15C3 CE34 46B7 8D93 3AD1 44B4 ~ "The difference between insanity and genius is measured only by success." ~ - Some bad guy from 007 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQE/ymuiRreNkzrRRLQRAtzNAJwNx36zNg3xfMeHMqFG28MAeidnuQCfVq9/ /kgDZp9xRaymQe+IJ391phY= =3Isn -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 30 23:04:29 2003 From: colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 18:04:29 -0500 Subject: GUI References: <3FC68335.3090805@rogers.com> <200311271946.27714.fraser@wehave.net> <3FC6B487.5010502@rogers.com> <20031128024853.GA437@node1.opengeometry.net> <3FC7360A.1040705@rogers.com> <3FC75011.3000905@truxtar.com> <3FC7ECB7.5070701@rogers.com> <3FC8149D.9040006@truxtar.com> <20031129140127.D814C4038@cbbrowne.com> <20031129203140.GA356@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <003c01c3b796$4f1d3f00$4201a8c0@ym.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> "Peter L. Peres" on Sunday, November 30, 2003 2:57 PM wrote: > > On Sat, 29 Nov 2003, William Park wrote: > > > So far, Korean (federal) and German (municipal) government decided to > > try Linux. This means Intel CPU, also. Where are the commies when you > > really need them? > > This is not to do with commies. Some of us aren't. And Intel is not a real > monopoly. I have never owned an Intel made cpu since I had an XT > (AMD8088), and till now (still on AMD and will likely stay on AMD). I do > not have a problem with HW vendors because their price wars are bound to > physical products and are not as amenable to dirty marketing tricks as > software. They have to keep the cash flowing or those wafer fabs will have > to be closed so competition works there, even if it's cutthroat many > times. Well, Intel could pull a lot of the same dirty (read illegal) tricks that Microsoft has pulled and no doubt in short order crush the likes of AMD and several other chip makers. Intel doesn't do the sort of tricks Microsoft is (in)famous for. In fact Intel has an in-house antitrust compliance office dedicated to making sure Intel doesn't stray do, or say the sorts of things that could land them in hot water with U.S. federal regulators. This is all not because Intel are nice folks, but rather even if successful they know what an antitrust suit would cost. So Intel continues along with 80-90% of the desktop PC CPU market, viewing the other 10-20% of the market as the price they pay to keep the government off their back and they are quietly making buckets of money. It also means that the vast majority of the computer market views them with respect (even in some case affection) unlike Microsoft... Me? With the exception of an old Sun IPX box (powered by a SPARC chip) all my current home machines are Intel based, and I am not complaining, as the have been reliable, and give good value for the money (unlike what I would say about my Microsoft running box)... Colin McGregor -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 30 22:55:22 2003 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter L. Peres) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 00:55:22 +0200 (IST) Subject: GUI In-Reply-To: <3FCA6BA2.1030707-F0u+EriZ6ihBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20031127175739.GA447@node1.opengeometry.net> <3FC68335.3090805@rogers.com> <200311271946.27714.fraser@wehave.net> <3FC6B487.5010502@rogers.com> <20031128024853.GA437@node1.opengeometry.net> <3FC7360A.1040705@rogers.com> <3FC75011.3000905@truxtar.com> <3FC7ECB7.5070701@rogers.com> <3FC8149D.9040006@truxtar.com> <20031129070822.7c292e59.joehill@sympatico.ca> <3FCA1659.8070900@truxtar.com> <20031130122430.124b65ee.joehill@sympatico.ca> <3FCA6BA2.1030707@truxtar.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 30 Nov 2003, Anton Markov wrote: > I am sorry that this discussion has gone so off topic. I should have > never continued this discussion when I noticed it going off to political > grounds. It's just that I am tired of seeing "Microsoft is evil" every > five messages. I know it falls under "Linux advocacy", 'M$ is evil' has no connection with 'Linux is good' and is certainly no 'Linux advocacy'. These are disjoint subjects. It is unfortunate that people do not see it that way in discussions. > but this is a technical list so let's keep the discussion on technical > things. I love seeing links to new proof about the advantages of > switching to Linux. Let's keep it at that. If anyone would like to > continue the current discussion, let's do it off the list. I agree fully. We are still friends. I hope. Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jason-gaRZxGPHtpBxZtjKW1aY+1aTQe2KTcn/ at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 30 23:08:03 2003 From: jason-gaRZxGPHtpBxZtjKW1aY+1aTQe2KTcn/ at public.gmane.org (Jason Shein) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 18:08:03 -0500 Subject: NEW Novell Certified Linux Engineer course Message-ID: <3FCA7853.3060906@pcsecurityonline.com> Another certification to add to your collection. http://www.novell.com/training/certinfo/cle/index.html Register before Jan 31 2004, and get a free MP3 player http://www.novell.com/offices/americas/canada/canada_promo.html Here is the registration page. http://register.novell.com/registernow/canada.cfm#1186 course # 3015 This should weed out those who memorize in order to pass the tests. -snip- The Novell Practicum test for the Novell Certified Linux Engineer (Novell CLE) will require you to prove your Novell Nterprise Linux Services knowledge in a "real life" setting. Your knowledge of both Linux and Novell Nterprise Linux Services will be tested. The practicum is basically a remote connection to a live server bank with Linux installed. Using the remote access session, you will be given a scenario with tasks to complete. These tasks will include configuring Novell Services on Linux, performing basic Linux tasks, and may even get into some troubleshooting. You will need to perform these tasks just as you would in a real environment. You will be evaluated automatically on each of the servers and will you receive a pass or fail exam result. The length of the exam is estimated to be about two hours. There is no "written" test anticipated at this time. -snip- All hands on. Real world, real time. Nice -- " Eventually people tire of repairing broken Windows, And decide to replace them with something stronger" (o_ //\ Linux - The Choice Of A GNU Generation V_/_ Jason Shein Linux Registered User #281100 jason-gaRZxGPHtpBxZtjKW1aY+1aTQe2KTcn/@public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From aitken-BwLjziHGQLusTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Sun Nov 30 19:06:43 2003 From: aitken-BwLjziHGQLusTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Chris Aitken) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 14:06:43 -0500 Subject: spinning out of control :) References: <1336.65.93.204.10.1071417513.squirrel@mailbox.samurai.com> <1071418599.2127.18.camel@gamma373-365.portable.resnet.yorku.ca> <1739.65.93.224.239.1071435513.squirrel@host.bettermarkets.com> <20031214214707.GA1209@debian> <2060.65.93.224.239.1071440279.squirrel@host.bettermarkets.com> <20031214223126.GA1460@debian> <3FDD09CA.7030004@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <3FCA3FC2.5F5D9328@onlink.net> Madison Kelly wrote: > Sure. > > I will be downtown al day tomorrow so if you would like to hook up > e-mail me either here on the list or on my proper e-mail: mkelly at > alteve dot com. Isn't it alteeve.com? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml