From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 1 00:24:56 2003 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 19:24:56 -0500 Subject: Selling Linux ?? Message-ID: <20031201002456.GA453@node1.opengeometry.net> 1. Does anyone know who is currently selling (Linux based) X-terminals? X-terminal is the "canonical" solution for many situations. And, recent development in PXE network booting makes Etherboot, Netboot, Rom-a-matic, LTSP (Linux Terminal Server Project), Mknbi-linux, Imggen, ... all obsolete. If you have 3c905 (what I have), then you can boot over network without above packages. I'm told you can also do that with Intel's ethernet card, as expected since PXE is Intel spec. 2. Do you think there is much demand for 2, 3, or 4 users logging onto single computer? ie. "Linux mainframe". That is, multiple sets of monitors, keyboards, and mouses hooked up to single computer; much like serial terminals, but with XDM. This would be primarily aimed at home market, where you want to have one computer serving 2, 3, or 4 users, but don't want to buy 2, 3, or 4 separate computers. Any comments or insights would be appreciated. -- William Park, Open Geometry Consulting, Linux solution for data management and processing. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From mervc-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 1 05:01:09 2003 From: mervc-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org (Merv Curley) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 00:01:09 -0500 Subject: telnet Message-ID: <200312010001.09554.mervc@eol.ca> A lurker returns I just came across a BBS which is accessed with telnet. While the stock telnet in Xterm works, has anyone come across a front end or something with a few more features? A search at sourceforge didn't show anything for Linux. I went through the man page for Xterm but can't see how to change the font size. It is very small now so I think it might be a default setting somewhere else. Cheerio -- Merv Curley Scarborough, Ont Libranet Linux 2.8 KDE 3.1.4 KMail 1.5.4 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From aacton-B71PBEe7S7Y at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 1 04:16:14 2003 From: aacton-B71PBEe7S7Y at public.gmane.org (Austin) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 23:16:14 -0500 Subject: telnet In-Reply-To: <200312010001.09554.mervc-MwcKTmeKVNQ@public.gmane.org> References: <200312010001.09554.mervc@eol.ca> Message-ID: <1070252172.6777.1.camel@gamma373-365.portable.resnet.yorku.ca> On Mon, 2003-12-01 at 00:01, Merv Curley wrote: > I just came across a BBS which is accessed with telnet. While the stock > telnet in Xterm works, has anyone come across a front end or something with > a few more features? A search at sourceforge didn't show anything for > Linux. gnome-telnet (a.k.a. gtelnet) It's good, and it does ssh as well. Austin -- Austin Acton Synthetic Organic Chemist, Teaching Assistant, Ph.D. Candidate Department of Chemistry, York University, Toronto MandrakeLinux Volunteer Developer, homepage: www.groundstate.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 1 04:17:04 2003 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 23:17:04 -0500 Subject: telnet In-Reply-To: <200312010001.09554.mervc-MwcKTmeKVNQ@public.gmane.org> References: <200312010001.09554.mervc@eol.ca> Message-ID: <20031201041704.GA660@node1.opengeometry.net> On Mon, Dec 01, 2003 at 12:01:09AM -0500, Merv Curley wrote: > A lurker returns > > I just came across a BBS which is accessed with telnet. While the > stock telnet in Xterm works, has anyone come across a front end or > something with a few more features? A search at sourceforge didn't > show anything for Linux. > > I went through the man page for Xterm but can't see how to change the > font size. It is very small now so I think it might be a default > setting somewhere else. Huh? What's wrong with xterm -fn ... man xterm -- William Park, Open Geometry Consulting, Linux solution for data management and processing. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jingsu-26n5VD7DAF2Tm46uYYfjYg at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 1 04:23:32 2003 From: jingsu-26n5VD7DAF2Tm46uYYfjYg at public.gmane.org (Jing Su) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 23:23:32 -0500 Subject: telnet In-Reply-To: <200312010001.09554.mervc-MwcKTmeKVNQ@public.gmane.org> References: <200312010001.09554.mervc@eol.ca> Message-ID: Depending on your terminal.... if you hold CTRL+RightMouseButton, you get a popup where you can pick relative font sizes (small medium big, etc) On Mon, 1 Dec 2003, Merv Curley wrote: > Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 00:01:09 -0500 > From: Merv Curley > Reply-To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > To: TLUG List > Subject: [TLUG]: telnet > > A lurker returns > > I just came across a BBS which is accessed with telnet. While the stock > telnet in Xterm works, has anyone come across a front end or something with > a few more features? A search at sourceforge didn't show anything for > Linux. > > I went through the man page for Xterm but can't see how to change the font > size. It is very small now so I think it might be a default setting > somewhere else. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From c.f.a.johnson-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 1 04:40:02 2003 From: c.f.a.johnson-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Chris F.A. Johnson) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 23:40:02 -0500 (EST) Subject: telnet In-Reply-To: <200312010001.09554.mervc-MwcKTmeKVNQ@public.gmane.org> References: <200312010001.09554.mervc@eol.ca> Message-ID: On Mon, 1 Dec 2003, Merv Curley wrote: > A lurker returns > > I just came across a BBS which is accessed with telnet. While the stock > telnet in Xterm works, has anyone come across a front end or something with > a few more features? A search at sourceforge didn't show anything for > Linux. > > I went through the man page for Xterm but can't see how to change the font > size. It is very small now so I think it might be a default setting > somewhere else. Control-RightMouseButton Or call it with a font specification, e.g.: xterm -font "-*-lucidatypewriter-medium-*-*-*-*-140-*-*-*-*-*-*" -- Chris F.A. Johnson ================================================================= cfaj-uVmiyxGBW52XDw4h08c5KA at public.gmane.org http://cfaj.freeshell.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lists-JN5fZfbfKAtWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 1 02:56:58 2003 From: lists-JN5fZfbfKAtWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Julian C. Dunn - Lists) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 21:56:58 -0500 Subject: Selling Linux ?? In-Reply-To: <20031201002456.GA453-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20031201002456.GA453@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <1070247418.17175.53.camel@jupiter.acf.aquezada.com> On Sun, 2003-11-30 at 19:24, William Park wrote: > 1. Does anyone know who is currently selling (Linux based) X-terminals? > > X-terminal is the "canonical" solution for many situations. And, recent > development in PXE network booting makes > Etherboot, Netboot, Rom-a-matic, LTSP (Linux Terminal Server > Project), Mknbi-linux, Imggen, ... > all obsolete. If you have 3c905 (what I have), then you can boot > over network without above packages. I'm told you can also do that > with Intel's ethernet card, as expected since PXE is Intel spec. *Some* of those components would be obsolete with PXE. Etherboot/Netboot in particular. However LTSP has to do with the infrastructure on the server-side, so it is by no means obsoleted by the ability to netboot within the NIC's firmware. > 2. Do you think there is much demand for 2, 3, or 4 users logging onto > single computer? ie. "Linux mainframe". > > That is, multiple sets of monitors, keyboards, and mouses hooked up > to single computer; much like serial terminals, but with XDM. This > would be primarily aimed at home market, where you want to have one > computer serving 2, 3, or 4 users, but don't want to buy 2, 3, or 4 > separate computers. Earlier this year a fellow from a company called Display Works (?) did a presentation at TLUG about how he converted his company's internal staff to all use diskless X terminals running off a few Compaq servers running Linux with LTSP. I'm sure someone has the slides from his presentation sitting around somewhere. - Julian -- [ Julian C. Dunn * ] [ WWW: www.aquezada.com/staff/julian/ * www.dreaming.org/~julian/ ] [ PGP: 0xFDC205B9 - 91B3 7A9D 683C 7C16 715F 442C 6065 D533 FDC2 05B9 ] [ "sometimes you win, sometimes you lose / and most times ] [ you choose between the two" - carole king, "sweet seasons" ] -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From reg.hughson-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 1 05:16:32 2003 From: reg.hughson-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (rh) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 00:16:32 -0500 Subject: GUI In-Reply-To: <3FCA6BA2.1030707-F0u+EriZ6ihBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20031127175739.GA447@node1.opengeometry.net> <3FC68335.3090805@rogers.com> <200311271946.27714.fraser@wehave.net> <3FC6B487.5010502@rogers.com> <20031128024853.GA437@node1.opengeometry.net> <3FC7360A.1040705@rogers.com> <3FC75011.3000905@truxtar.com> <3FC7ECB7.5070701@rogers.com> <3FC8149D.9040006@truxtar.com> <20031129070822.7c292e59.joehill@sympatico.ca> <3FCA1659.8070900@truxtar.com> <20031130122430.124b65ee.joehill@sympatico.ca> <3FCA6BA2.1030707@truxtar.com> Message-ID: <20031201001632.293175d0.reg.hughson@sympatico.ca> On Sun, 30 Nov 2003 17:13:54 -0500 Anton Markov wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > Hello everyone, > > I am sorry that this discussion has gone so off topic. I should have > never continued this discussion when I noticed it going off to > political grounds. It's just that I am tired of seeing "Microsoft is > evil" every five messages. I know it falls under "Linux advocacy", > but this is a technical list so let's keep the discussion on technical > things. I love seeing links to new proof about the advantages of > switching to Linux. Let's keep it at that. If anyone would like to > continue the current discussion, let's do it off the list. > OMG, finally someone is going to put an end to this. Talk about getting way off topic and way too political. We all know Microsoft is headed by Satan and that should be the end of that. > Thanks. > > JoeHill wrote: > | ...are you high on crack at the moment? That's the only explanation, > other than > | a complete lack of knowledge about legal history, I can come up with > for such an > | absurd statement. > Perhaps I have not researched the topic as throughly as you have. > Now that I re-read my own message I realize that I was exadurating. > > > PS. How do you change the subject of a thread (ex. "Re: Intel (was Re: > [TLUG]: GUI)")? > > - -- > Anton Markov <("anton" + "@" + "truxtar" + "." + "com")> > > GnuPGP Key fingerprint = > 5546 A6E2 1FFB 9BB8 15C3 CE34 46B7 8D93 3AD1 44B4 > > ~ "The difference between insanity and genius is measured only by > success."~ - Some bad guy from 007 > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) > Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org > > iD8DBQE/ymuiRreNkzrRRLQRAtzNAJwNx36zNg3xfMeHMqFG28MAeidnuQCfVq9/ > /kgDZp9xRaymQe+IJ391phY= > =3Isn > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 1 05:30:13 2003 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 00:30:13 -0500 Subject: Selling Linux ?? In-Reply-To: <1070247418.17175.53.camel-sd4rSCkhOeu0gumUbo5taVDdeaDYgqOw@public.gmane.org> References: <20031201002456.GA453@node1.opengeometry.net> <1070247418.17175.53.camel@jupiter.acf.aquezada.com> Message-ID: <20031201053013.GA1124@node1.opengeometry.net> On Sun, Nov 30, 2003 at 09:56:58PM -0500, Julian C. Dunn - Lists wrote: > On Sun, 2003-11-30 at 19:24, William Park wrote: > > > 1. Does anyone know who is currently selling (Linux based) > > X-terminals? > > > > X-terminal is the "canonical" solution for many situations. > > And, recent development in PXE network booting makes > > Etherboot, Netboot, Rom-a-matic, LTSP (Linux Terminal Server > > Project), Mknbi-linux, Imggen, ... > > all obsolete. If you have 3c905 (what I have), then you can > > boot over network without above packages. I'm told you can also > > do that with Intel's ethernet card, as expected since PXE is > > Intel spec. > > *Some* of those components would be obsolete with PXE. > Etherboot/Netboot in particular. However LTSP has to do with the > infrastructure on the server-side, so it is by no means obsoleted by > the ability to netboot within the NIC's firmware. But, once you mount NFS root from the remote server, then X-terminal is looking at the same "root filesystem" as it would have from local harddisk. Maintaince/administration is the same. The only "edge" that LTSP brought to the table was network boot. > > 2. Do you think there is much demand for 2, 3, or 4 users logging > > onto single computer? ie. "Linux mainframe". > > > > That is, multiple sets of monitors, keyboards, and mouses hooked > > up to single computer; much like serial terminals, but with XDM. > > This would be primarily aimed at home market, where you want to > > have one computer serving 2, 3, or 4 users, but don't want to > > buy 2, 3, or 4 separate computers. > > Earlier this year a fellow from a company called Display Works (?) did > a presentation at TLUG about how he converted his company's internal > staff to all use diskless X terminals running off a few Compaq servers > running Linux with LTSP. I'm sure someone has the slides from his > presentation sitting around somewhere. X-terminal still requires motherboard, ethernet card, power supply, and case; in other word, still a computer without disks. I meant just connecting second set of monitor/keyboard/mouse to a computer, ie. one motherboard with 2 video cards (for 2 monitors), 2 keyboards (USB), and 2 mouses (USB). I'm wondering if there are market for such things... -- William Park, Open Geometry Consulting, Linux solution for data management and processing. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From mervc-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 1 06:38:29 2003 From: mervc-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org (Merv Curley) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 01:38:29 -0500 Subject: What are good Firewalls In-Reply-To: <3FBFB979.4080705-NOBIIgrgD1YV+D8aMU/kSg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FBFB979.4080705@enoreo.on.ca> Message-ID: <200312010138.29624.mervc@eol.ca> On November 22, 2003 02:31 pm, Mark Vining wrote: > I have an extra P150 that I am going to set up as a firewall. Are there > any good Debian Packages I should look at? Many people are using Coyote which boots from a floppy. No hard disk or CDRom required. I have been with it for over 3 years on a P-133. All the usual gateway/firewall stuff. URL on request. -- Merv Curley Scarborough, Ont Libranet Linux 2.8 KDE 3.1.4 KMail 1.5.4 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 1 05:52:34 2003 From: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 00:52:34 -0500 (EST) Subject: telnet In-Reply-To: References: <200312010001.09554.mervc@eol.ca> Message-ID: On Sun, 30 Nov 2003, Chris F.A. Johnson wrote: > Control-RightMouseButton Some xterm clones/replacements (notably rxvt) don't support this (unfortunately as it is a fantastic feature). > Or call it with a font specification, e.g.: > > xterm -font "-*-lucidatypewriter-medium-*-*-*-*-140-*-*-*-*-*-*" Or use xrdb to set application defaults for your account. Rob -- Robert Brockway B.Sc. email: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org, zzbrock at uqconnect.net Linux counter project ID #16440 (http://counter.li.org) "The earth is but one country and mankind its citizens" -Baha'u'llah -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 1 03:57:05 2003 From: hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org (Howard Gibson) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 22:57:05 -0500 Subject: Selling Linux ?? In-Reply-To: <20031201002456.GA453-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20031201002456.GA453@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <20031130225705.1175682e.hgibson@eol.ca> On Sun, 30 Nov 2003 19:24:56 -0500 William Park wrote: > 1. Does anyone know who is currently selling (Linux based) X-terminals? > > X-terminal is the "canonical" solution for many situations. And, recent > development in PXE network booting makes > Etherboot, Netboot, Rom-a-matic, LTSP (Linux Terminal Server > Project), Mknbi-linux, Imggen, ... > all obsolete. If you have 3c905 (what I have), then you can boot > over network without above packages. I'm told you can also do that > with Intel's ethernet card, as expected since PXE is Intel spec. > > 2. Do you think there is much demand for 2, 3, or 4 users logging onto > single computer? ie. "Linux mainframe". > > That is, multiple sets of monitors, keyboards, and mouses hooked up > to single computer; much like serial terminals, but with XDM. This > would be primarily aimed at home market, where you want to have one > computer serving 2, 3, or 4 users, but don't want to buy 2, 3, or 4 > separate computers. > > Any comments or insights would be appreciated. William, An X Terminal is nothing more than a machine with a monitor, keyboard and mouse that puts up an X11 display. You do not care what the OS is. What Linux gets you is a use for all those old Pentiums that everybody wants to get rid of, that otherwise, are running perfectly. If the hardware is okay, Linux provides an X display. My experince from quite a few years ago is that X Terminals are rather expensive for something that is little more than a dumb terminal. As far as a central computer is concerned, there is no free lunch. If your users require 256MB each, your four-user machine requires 1GB of memory. Multiple processors sound to me like a good idea. -- Howard Gibson hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org howard-42qnO8ePF9cV+D8aMU/kSg at public.gmane.org http://home.eol.ca/~hgibson -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 1 06:39:30 2003 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 01:39:30 -0500 Subject: Selling Linux ?? In-Reply-To: <20031130225705.1175682e.hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20031201002456.GA453@node1.opengeometry.net> <20031130225705.1175682e.hgibson@eol.ca> Message-ID: <20031201063930.GA1347@node1.opengeometry.net> On Sun, Nov 30, 2003 at 10:57:05PM -0500, Howard Gibson wrote: > As far as a central computer is concerned, there is no free lunch. > If your users require 256MB each, your four-user machine requires > 1GB of memory. Multiple processors sound to me like a good idea. That's what I mean. If you need 256MB, and you just buy 256MB and put it in one machine. As opposed to buying another case, motherboard, cpu, ethernet card, along with 256MB that you want... Of course, you are limited by physical contraints; so, it's home market thing. -- William Park, Open Geometry Consulting, Linux solution for data management and processing. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jzygmont-tEQKYFGiemxAYG7eUwYNkWD2FQJk+8+b at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 1 06:37:58 2003 From: jzygmont-tEQKYFGiemxAYG7eUwYNkWD2FQJk+8+b at public.gmane.org (Justin Zygmont) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 01:37:58 -0500 (EST) Subject: term display in redhat linux Message-ID: one problem with having ANSI graphics display properly is with the UTF fonts used in RedHat linux since version 8. Many console programs won't display properly like this, the solution i've used for this is to change the /etc/sysconfig/i18n to remove the references to UTF, something like this: LANG="en_CA" SUPPORTED="en_CA:en:en_US:en" SYSFONT="lat0-sun16" SYSFONTACM="iso15" hope this helps with the Xterm question.. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 1 06:43:47 2003 From: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 01:43:47 -0500 (EST) Subject: Selling Linux ?? In-Reply-To: <20031130225705.1175682e.hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20031201002456.GA453@node1.opengeometry.net> <20031130225705.1175682e.hgibson@eol.ca> Message-ID: On Sun, 30 Nov 2003, Howard Gibson wrote: > As far as a central computer is concerned, there is no free lunch. No, but you can get a discounted lunch. Copy-on-write pages, more efficient use of cpu (on a single user box the cpu is largely idle), etc, allow for far far more efficient use of system resources. Rob -- Robert Brockway B.Sc. email: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org, zzbrock at uqconnect.net Linux counter project ID #16440 (http://counter.li.org) "The earth is but one country and mankind its citizens" -Baha'u'llah -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 1 11:26:37 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 06:26:37 -0500 Subject: GUI In-Reply-To: <20031201001632.293175d0.reg.hughson-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <20031127175739.GA447@node1.opengeometry.net> <3FC68335.3090805@rogers.com> <200311271946.27714.fraser@wehave.net> <3FC6B487.5010502@rogers.com> <20031128024853.GA437@node1.opengeometry.net> <3FC7360A.1040705@rogers.com> <3FC75011.3000905@truxtar.com> <3FC7ECB7.5070701@rogers.com> <3FC8149D.9040006@truxtar.com> <20031129070822.7c292e59.joehill@sympatico.ca> <3FCA1659.8070900@truxtar.com> <20031130122430.124b65ee.joehill@sympatico.ca> <3FCA6BA2.1030707@truxtar.com> <20031201001632.293175d0.reg.hughson@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <20031201062637.7d0914b6.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Mon, 1 Dec 2003 00:16:32 -0500 rh wrote: > OMG, finally someone is going to put an end to this. Talk about getting > way off topic and way too political. > > We all know Microsoft is headed by Satan and that should be the end of > that. Actually, as I've been informed, the rule is that the thread ends when someone mentions Hitler, and someone did. -- JoeHill ++ ICQ # 280779813 Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "Every now and then when your life gets complicated and the weasels start closing in, the only real cure is to load up on heinous chemicals and then drive like a bastard from Hollywood to Las Vegas."-- Hunter S. Thompson -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 1 11:28:24 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 06:28:24 -0500 Subject: Debian attacker may have used new exploit Message-ID: <20031201062824.7db55103.joehill@sympatico.ca> "Initial investigations of the security breach, which occurred on 19 November, indicate that the attacker was able to gain full control of Debian servers after logging on via unprivileged accounts, known as privilege escalation, according to James Troup, part of the team handling Debian's distribution." http://news.zdnet.co.uk/software/developer/0,39020387,39118183,00.htm -- JoeHill ++ ICQ # 280779813 Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "The free communication of ideas and opinions is one of the most precious of the rights of man."-- Declaration of the Rights of Man -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From scotta-cpI+UMyWUv9BDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 1 12:00:34 2003 From: scotta-cpI+UMyWUv9BDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Scott Allen) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 07:00:34 -0500 Subject: telnet In-Reply-To: <200312010001.09554.mervc-MwcKTmeKVNQ@public.gmane.org>; from mervc-MwcKTmeKVNQ@public.gmane.org on Mon, Dec 01, 2003 at 00:01:09 -0500 References: <200312010001.09554.mervc@eol.ca> Message-ID: <20031201120034.GA2980@localhost> On Mon Dec 01,2003 12:01:09 AM Merv Curley wrote: > I just came across a BBS which is accessed with telnet. While > the stock telnet in Xterm works, has anyone come across a front > end or something with a few more features? A search at > sourceforge didn't show anything for Linux. I haven't looked at this package at all, but it appeared on freshmeat.net yesterday and its description seems to match what you're looking for. From the home page: "gtermix is a gtk+ telnet client intended for calling BBSes. It utilizes a custom VGA textmode emulating terminal widget that allows it to accurately render bulletin board systems as they were in DOS terminal programs." http://gtermix.sourceforge.net/ -- ** Scott Allen scotta-cpI+UMyWUv9BDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org ** ** Toronto, Ontario, Canada ** -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 1 13:05:50 2003 From: colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 08:05:50 -0500 Subject: What are good Firewalls References: <3FBFB979.4080705@enoreo.on.ca> Message-ID: <007501c3b80b$d8736ca0$4201a8c0@ym.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> "Mark Vining" on Saturday, November 22, 2003 2:31 PM wrote: > I have an extra P150 that I am going to set up as a firewall. Are there > any good Debian Packages I should look at? I personally use Coyote Linux: http://www.coyotelinux.com/ I have poked at, but not actually deployed Bering Linux: http://leaf.sourceforge.net/ The trade-off appears to be Coyote has a much slicker set-up / floppy creation package. Bering uses a newer (2.4 as opposed to a 2.2) kernel and is more advanced filtering system. Either one would be very good for small home / small office network. Colin McGregor -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From a67582000-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 1 13:04:10 2003 From: a67582000-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Thomas Gibson) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 08:04:10 -0500 (EST) Subject: What are good Firewalls In-Reply-To: <200312010138.29624.mervc-MwcKTmeKVNQ@public.gmane.org> References: <200312010138.29624.mervc@eol.ca> Message-ID: <20031201130410.22663.qmail@web10308.mail.yahoo.com> IPCOP is good also, allows you to easily set up a webserver, supports dynamic DNS, and VPN and provide a web configuration interface. It requires a HD install of about 128M. --- Merv Curley wrote: > On November 22, 2003 02:31 pm, Mark Vining wrote: > > I have an extra P150 that I am going to set up as > a firewall. Are there > > any good Debian Packages I should look at? > > > Many people are using Coyote which boots from a > floppy. No hard disk or > CDRom required. I have been with it for over 3 > years on a P-133. All the > usual gateway/firewall stuff. URL on request. > > -- > Merv Curley > > Scarborough, Ont > > Libranet Linux 2.8 KDE 3.1.4 KMail 1.5.4 > > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: > http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text > below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 1 13:33:48 2003 From: cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org (cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org) Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2003 08:33:48 -0500 Subject: Selling Linux ?? In-Reply-To: Message from Robert Brockway of "Mon, 01 Dec 2003 01:43:47 EST." References: <20031201002456.GA453@node1.opengeometry.net> <20031130225705.1175682e.hgibson@eol.ca> Message-ID: <20031201133349.0C4AF3FF4@cbbrowne.com> > On Sun, 30 Nov 2003, Howard Gibson wrote: > > > As far as a central computer is concerned, there is no free lunch. > > No, but you can get a discounted lunch. Copy-on-write pages, more > efficient use of cpu (on a single user box the cpu is largely idle), etc, > allow for far far more efficient use of system resources. In addition, for applications involving large binaries and/or large sets of shared libraries, that "stuff" can get shared across multiple users. For instance, if you have 10 users running 10 GNOME applications, the binaries for the apps are only loaded once, and shared across all the users. Similarly, if they are all running OpenOffice.org, much of the app should be shared, saving a pile of memory. This is NOT a help when running applications that load a lot of their runtime state using an interpreted language. - Multiple instances of Mozilla will be very costly because of the great gobs of ECMAScript. - Likewise, instances of Emacs load ELisp independently, and so a lot of that _won't_ be shared. - Apps written in Perl that use a whole lot of libraries don't get any benefit from this. -- let name="aa454" and tld="freenet.carleton.ca" in String.concat "@" [name;tld];; http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/rdbms.html Always remember that you're unique, just like everyone else. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From fcsoft-3Emkkp+1Olsmp8TqCH86vg at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 1 13:10:07 2003 From: fcsoft-3Emkkp+1Olsmp8TqCH86vg at public.gmane.org (bob findlay) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 08:10:07 -0500 Subject: Selling Linux ?? In-Reply-To: <20031201002456.GA453-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20031201002456.GA453@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <20031201134052.7110D10761D@outbox.allstream.net> On November 30, 2003 07:24 pm, you wrote: > 1. Does anyone know who is currently selling (Linux based) X-terminals? > > X-terminal is the "canonical" solution for many situations. And, > recent development in PXE network booting makes > Etherboot, Netboot, Rom-a-matic, LTSP (Linux Terminal Server > Project), Mknbi-linux, Imggen, ... > all obsolete. If you have 3c905 (what I have), then you can boot > over network without above packages. I'm told you can also do that > with Intel's ethernet card, as expected since PXE is Intel spec. > > 2. Do you think there is much demand for 2, 3, or 4 users logging onto > single computer? ie. "Linux mainframe". > > That is, multiple sets of monitors, keyboards, and mouses hooked up > to single computer; much like serial terminals, but with XDM. This > would be primarily aimed at home market, where you want to have one > computer serving 2, 3, or 4 users, but don't want to buy 2, 3, or 4 > separate computers. > > Any comments or insights would be appreciated. Don't forget the VNC solution. I've used it with great success on one of my contracts. One of its principle advantages over the X solutions is that the X client runs on the server and therefore continues to run even if the VNC viewer isn't currently on. This is a very slick way to maintain the state for a mobile worker for example. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 1 14:19:32 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 09:19:32 -0500 Subject: XFCE4 RPM's for MDK 9.2 Message-ID: <20031201091932.3a5552be.joehill@sympatico.ca> With all the GUI talk, just thought I'd post a link to this, add the source using urpmi.addmedia, and urpmi xfce4: http://www.eslrahc.com/ Courtesy of Charles E. on the Mandrake lists. -- JoeHill ++ ICQ # 280779813 Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "True communication is possible only between equals, because inferiors are more consistently rewarded for telling their superiors pleasant lies than for telling the truth."-- The SNAFU Principle -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From tim-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 1 16:49:53 2003 From: tim-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Tim Writer) Date: 01 Dec 2003 11:49:53 -0500 Subject: telnet In-Reply-To: References: <200312010001.09554.mervc@eol.ca> Message-ID: Robert Brockway writes: > On Sun, 30 Nov 2003, Chris F.A. Johnson wrote: > > > Control-RightMouseButton > > Some xterm clones/replacements (notably rxvt) don't support this > (unfortunately as it is a fantastic feature). > > > Or call it with a font specification, e.g.: > > > > xterm -font "-*-lucidatypewriter-medium-*-*-*-*-140-*-*-*-*-*-*" > > Or use xrdb to set application defaults for your account. FYI, recent xterm on some (many, most?) distributions have support for anti-aliased fonts. To choose an anti-aliased font, use "-fa": xterm -fa 'Bitstream Vera Sans Mono:size=12' xterm -fa 'Luxi Mono:size=14' You can use fc-list to list the fonts available via fontconfig: fc-list And, of course, you can set these resources in your ~/.Xresources file which is typically loaded for you (with xrdb) during login: XTerm*faceName: Bitstream Vera Sans Mono XTerm*faceSize: 12 -- tim writer starnix inc. 905.771.0017 ext. 225 thornhill, ontario, canada http://www.starnix.com professional linux services & products -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From mervc-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 1 19:19:59 2003 From: mervc-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org (Merv Curley) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 14:19:59 -0500 Subject: telnet In-Reply-To: References: <200312010001.09554.mervc@eol.ca> Message-ID: <200312011419.59696.mervc@eol.ca> On November 30, 2003 11:40 pm, Chris F.A. Johnson wrote: > > Control-RightMouseButton > > Or call it with a font specification, e.g.: > > xterm -font "-*-lucidatypewriter-medium-*-*-*-*-140-*-*-*-*-*-*" Thanks all Control-RightMouseButton worked just fine and now I can read all the screens of BBS menus. There are some color issues but I assume that the BBS was designed for viewing with Windows colorsets and fonts. Cheers -- Merv Curley Scarborough, Ont Libranet Linux 2.8 KDE 3.1.4 KMail 1.5.4 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From mervc-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 1 19:23:44 2003 From: mervc-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org (Merv Curley) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 14:23:44 -0500 Subject: telnet In-Reply-To: <20031201120034.GA2980-bi+AKbBUZKZeoWH0uzbU5w@public.gmane.org> References: <200312010001.09554.mervc@eol.ca> <20031201120034.GA2980@localhost> Message-ID: <200312011423.44014.mervc@eol.ca> On December 1, 2003 07:00 am, Scott Allen wrote: > > From the home page: > "gtermix is a gtk+ telnet client intended for calling BBSes. It > utilizes a custom VGA textmode emulating terminal widget that allows it > to accurately render bulletin board systems as they were in DOS > terminal programs." > > http://gtermix.sourceforge.net/ Thanks Scott. It is so new that searching Sourceforge yesterday didn't reveal it. I tried to DL but the mirrors I tried, denied having it. It is Alfa 0.1 release so bound to be some problems. I have a note to try again in a few days. Cheers -- Merv Curley Scarborough, Ont Libranet Linux 2.8 KDE 3.1.4 KMail 1.5.4 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From mervc-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 1 19:32:12 2003 From: mervc-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org (Merv Curley) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 14:32:12 -0500 Subject: telnet In-Reply-To: References: <200312010001.09554.mervc@eol.ca> Message-ID: <200312011432.12321.mervc@eol.ca> On November 30, 2003 11:23 pm, Jing Su wrote: > Depending on your terminal.... if you hold CTRL+RightMouseButton, you get > a popup where you can pick relative font sizes (small medium big, etc) > I normally use the KDE Konsole term window. CTRL+RightMouseButton means a quite different popup is displayed. But the Debian Xterm works as you'all described, so my eyes are relaxed with those nice large fonts. Cheers to all -- Merv Curley Scarborough, Ont Libranet Linux 2.8 KDE 3.1.4 KMail 1.5.4 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From a67582000-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 1 18:53:41 2003 From: a67582000-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Thomas Gibson) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 13:53:41 -0500 (EST) Subject: telnet In-Reply-To: <200312011432.12321.mervc-MwcKTmeKVNQ@public.gmane.org> References: <200312011432.12321.mervc@eol.ca> Message-ID: <20031201185341.54309.qmail@web10307.mail.yahoo.com> Make sure you are using an up-to-date Xft package if you are using anti-aliasing fonts. Versions of Xft shipped with RH80 among others have a memory leak (http://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=76219). I've seen it suck up >60MB of memory in short order. --- Merv Curley wrote: > On November 30, 2003 11:23 pm, Jing Su wrote: > > Depending on your terminal.... if you hold > CTRL+RightMouseButton, you get > > a popup where you can pick relative font sizes > (small medium big, etc) > > > I normally use the KDE Konsole term window. > CTRL+RightMouseButton means > a quite different popup is displayed. But the > Debian Xterm works as > you'all described, so my eyes are relaxed with those > nice large fonts. > > Cheers to all > > -- > Merv Curley > > Scarborough, Ont > > Libranet Linux 2.8 KDE 3.1.4 KMail 1.5.4 > > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: > http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text > below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From teddymills-VFlxZYho3OA at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 1 19:07:47 2003 From: teddymills-VFlxZYho3OA at public.gmane.org (Teddy Mills) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 14:07:47 -0500 Subject: Chris is still confused Message-ID: <001801c3b83e$6c882250$0301a8c0@amazon> internet interface is ppp0 internal inteface is eth1 This is on a DNS and Web server (I know, not the idea, but Im pressed for space.) All I want to is stop everything coming in, and allow ports 22,25,53,80. Can someone post a generic one? Amazingly, this is not easy to find. My script is 95% there, but that last 5% will be difficult. Might be easier to work with a new script. Theres lots of them out there, that start by allowing everything, and then restricting. I want to start by not allowing anything, and then allowing only 22,25,53,80. Tried those online firewall config toolkits, but I have yet to have one work. And for my script, im still cannot get all packets relating to SMTP or DNS to move correctly. Anyways here it is....SMTP and DNS still messed up... [root-v+aXH1h/sVw at public.gmane.org scripts]# cat firewall #!/bin/sh echo "Firewall 5.00 starting..." # **************************************** # Flushing all chains and reset iptables # **************************************** /sbin/iptables -F /sbin/iptables -F INPUT /sbin/iptables -F OUTPUT /sbin/iptables -F FORWARD /sbin/iptables -t nat -F /sbin/iptables -X /sbin/iptables -Z # ********************************************** # DROP THESE PACKETS # ********************************************* echo Default policy to DROP all INPUT packets /sbin/iptables --policy INPUT DROP echo Default policy to DROP all OUTPUT packets /sbin/iptables --policy OUTPUT DROP echo Default policy to DROP all FORWARD packets /sbin/iptables --policy FORWARD DROP echo SPOOF DROP incoming 192.168.0.0 packets from ppp0 /sbin/iptables -A INPUT -i ppp0 -s 192.168.0.0/24 -j DROP # ********************************************** # drop these nutbars # ********************************************* echo Drop that spammer bitch from China 218.70.8.186 /sbin/iptables -A INPUT -s 218.70.8.186/24 -j DROP /sbin/iptables -A INPUT -s 218.70.0.0/24 -j DROP # *************************************** # Kernel netfilter variables # *************************************** echo "1" > /proc/sys/net/ipv4/tcp_syncookies echo "1" > /proc/sys/net/ipv4/conf/all/rp_filter echo "1" > /proc/sys/net/ipv4/ip_dynaddr echo "1" > /proc/sys/net/ipv4/ip_forward # echo "1" > /proc/sys/net/ipv4/icmp_echo_ignore_all echo "0" > /proc/sys/net/ipv4/conf/all/accept_redirects echo "1" > /proc/sys/net/ipv4/icmp_echo_ignore_broadcasts echo "0" > /proc/sys/net/ipv4/conf/all/accept_source_route echo "1" > /proc/sys/net/ipv4/icmp_ignore_bogus_error_responses echo "1" > /proc/sys/net/ipv4/conf/all/log_martians # **************************************************************** # ACCEPT THESE PACKETS # **************************************************************** echo Enable NAT/MASQUERADING and IPforwarding /sbin/iptables -t nat -A POSTROUTING -o ppp0 -j MASQUERADE -j ACCEPT echo Accept fragmented packets /sbin/iptables -A FORWARD -f -j ACCEPT echo accept packets from an already established TCP connection /sbin/iptables -A FORWARD -m state -p tcp --state ESTABLISHED,RELATED -j ACCEPT echo allow everything on eth1 network /sbin/iptables -A INPUT -i eth1 -p all -j ACCEPT /sbin/iptables -A OUTPUT -o eth1 -p all -j ACCEPT /sbin/iptables -A FORWARD -i eth1 -p all -j ACCEPT echo allow everything on the loopback interface /sbin/iptables -A INPUT -i lo -p all -j ACCEPT /sbin/iptables -A OUTPUT -o lo -p all -j ACCEPT /sbin/iptables -A FORWARD -i lo -p all -j ACCEPT # ********************************************************** # ppp0 INPUT and FORWARD rules # ********************************************************** echo allow incoming traffic 110 993 /sbin/iptables -A FORWARD -p tcp -i ppp0 --dport 110 -j ACCEPT /sbin/iptables -A FORWARD -p tcp -i ppp0 --dport 993 -j ACCEPT # *************************************************************** # ppp0 OUTPUT and FORWARD rules # *************************************************************** echo allow outgoing ppp0 traffic 110 993 /sbin/iptables -A FORWARD -p tcp -o ppp0 --dport 110 -j ACCEPT /sbin/iptables -A FORWARD -p tcp -o ppp0 --dport 993 -j ACCEPT ################################################################# # ICMP 8 ################################################################# /sbin/iptables -A FORWARD -i ppp0 -p tcp --dport 8 -j ACCEPT /sbin/iptables -A FORWARD -o ppp0 -p tcp --dport 8 -j ACCEPT /sbin/iptables -A OUTPUT -o ppp0 -p tcp --dport 8 --sport 0:1024 -j ACCEPT /sbin/iptables -A INPUT -i ppp0 -p tcp --dport 8 --sport 0:1024 -j ACCEPT ################################################################# # DNS 53 ################################################################# /sbin/iptables -A FORWARD -i ppp0 -p tcp --dport 53 -j ACCEPT /sbin/iptables -A FORWARD -o ppp0 -p tcp --dport 53 -j ACCEPT /sbin/iptables -A OUTPUT -o ppp0 -p tcp --dport 53 --sport 0:1024 -j ACCEPT /sbin/iptables -A INPUT -i ppp0 -p tcp --dport 53 --sport 0:1024 -j ACCEPT /sbin/iptables -A FORWARD -i ppp0 -p udp --dport 53 -j ACCEPT /sbin/iptables -A FORWARD -o ppp0 -p udp --dport 53 -j ACCEPT /sbin/iptables -A OUTPUT -o ppp0 -p udp --dport 53 --sport 0:1024 -j ACCEPT /sbin/iptables -A INPUT -i ppp0 -p udp --dport 53 --sport 0:1024 -j ACCEPT ################################################################# # SMTP server 25 ################################################################ /sbin/iptables -A FORWARD -i ppp0 -p tcp --dport 25 -j ACCEPT /sbin/iptables -A FORWARD -o ppp0 -p tcp --dport 25 -j ACCEPT /sbin/iptables -A OUTPUT -o ppp0 -p tcp --dport 25 --sport 0:1024 -j ACCEPT /sbin/iptables -A INPUT -i ppp0 -p tcp --dport 25 --sport 0:1024 -j ACCEPT ################################################################# # AUTH 113 ################################################################ /sbin/iptables -A FORWARD -i ppp0 -p tcp --dport 113 -j ACCEPT /sbin/iptables -A FORWARD -o ppp0 -p tcp --dport 113 -j ACCEPT /sbin/iptables -A OUTPUT -o ppp0 -p tcp --dport 113 --sport 0:1024 -j ACCEPT /sbin/iptables -A INPUT -i ppp0 -p tcp --dport 113 --sport 0:1024 -j ACCEPT ################################################################# # IMAP 143 ################################################################ /sbin/iptables -A FORWARD -i ppp0 -p tcp --dport 143 -j ACCEPT /sbin/iptables -A FORWARD -o ppp0 -p tcp --dport 143 -j ACCEPT /sbin/iptables -A OUTPUT -o ppp0 -p tcp --dport 143 --sport 0:1024 -j ACCEPT /sbin/iptables -A INPUT -i ppp0 -p tcp --dport 143 --sport 0:1024 -j ACCEPT ################################################################# # httpd 80 ################################################################ /sbin/iptables -A FORWARD -i ppp0 -p tcp --dport 80 -j ACCEPT /sbin/iptables -A FORWARD -o ppp0 -p tcp --dport 80 -j ACCEPT /sbin/iptables -A OUTPUT -o ppp0 -p tcp --dport 80 --sport 0:1024 -j ACCEPT /sbin/iptables -A INPUT -i ppp0 -p tcp --dport 80 --sport 0:1024 -j ACCEPT ################################################################# # ssh 22 ################################################################ /sbin/iptables -A FORWARD -i ppp0 -p tcp --dport 22 -j ACCEPT /sbin/iptables -A FORWARD -o ppp0 -p tcp --dport 22 -j ACCEPT /sbin/iptables -A OUTPUT -o ppp0 -p tcp --dport 22 --sport 0:1024 -j ACCEPT /sbin/iptables -A INPUT -i ppp0 -p tcp --dport 22 --sport 0:1024 -j ACCEPT # ***************************************************** # Loading Iptable modules (enable if not kernel builtin) # ***************************************************** # /sbin/modprobe ip_tables # /sbin/modprobe ip_conntrack # /sbin/modprobe ip_nat_ftp # /sbin/modprobe ip_conntrack_ftp # ***************************************** # Disabled rules # ***************************************** # echo Catchall In case a packet made it here, drop all other traffic. # /sbin/iptables -A FORWARD -j DROP # echo Drop any incoming SMTP packets # /sbin/iptables -A INPUT -p tcp -i ppp0 -s 0/0 --dport 25 -j DROP [root-v+aXH1h/sVw at public.gmane.org scripts]# --------------------------------------------------------------- teddy mills http://www.vger.ca VGER directives...To collect...all that is collectable. To sell...all that is saleable.To merchandise...all that is merchandisable. Family Guys, Quagmire "allllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll right" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From blsonne-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 1 19:10:33 2003 From: blsonne-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Byron Sonne) Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2003 14:10:33 -0500 Subject: XFCE4 RPM's for MDK 9.2 In-Reply-To: <20031201091932.3a5552be.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <20031201091932.3a5552be.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <3FCB9229.8070206@rogers.com> > With all the GUI talk, just thought I'd post a link to this, add the source > using urpmi.addmedia, and urpmi xfce4: I used to use XFCE on an OpenBSD box that was kinda underpowered; it was a good little gui environment that did exactly what I needed, without all the bells and whistles. Seemed pretty solid too. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From kcozens-qazKcTl6WRFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 1 19:50:30 2003 From: kcozens-qazKcTl6WRFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Kevin Cozens) Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2003 14:50:30 -0500 Subject: Chris is still confused In-Reply-To: <001801c3b83e$6c882250$0301a8c0-vAnPq90cUBg@public.gmane.org> References: <001801c3b83e$6c882250$0301a8c0@amazon> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20031201143932.01ef9010@mail.interlog.com> At 02:07 PM 12/01/2003 -0500, Teddy Mills wrote: >All I want to is stop everything coming in, and allow ports 22,25,53,80. > >Can someone post a generic one? Amazingly, this is not easy to find. >My script is 95% there, but that last 5% will be difficult. >Might be easier to work with a new script. [snip] >I want to start by not allowing anything, and then allowing only >22,25,53,80. You might want to check out the MonMotha script at: http://monmotha.mplug.org/firewall/index.php It is the script I am using on a couple of machines. It denies everything except for what you tell it to allow. It is easily configured by setting the contents of a few variables near the start of the script. Cheers! Kevin. (http://www.interlog.com/~kcozens/) Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172 |"What are we going to do today, Borg?" E-mail:kcozens at interlog dot com|"Same thing we always do, Pinkutus: Packet:ve3syb-XXPEJ3/fxIc at public.gmane.org#con.on.ca.na| Try to assimilate the world!" #include | -Pinkutus & the Borg -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 1 20:05:58 2003 From: fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Fraser Campbell) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 15:05:58 -0500 Subject: Chris is still confused In-Reply-To: <001801c3b83e$6c882250$0301a8c0-vAnPq90cUBg@public.gmane.org> References: <001801c3b83e$6c882250$0301a8c0@amazon> Message-ID: <200312011505.59076.fraser@wehave.net> On December 1, 2003 02:07 pm, Teddy Mills wrote: > Anyways here it is....SMTP and DNS still messed up... Go to http://shorewall.sourceforge.net/ read their excellent quickstart guides, install shorewall, forget your troubles. -- Fraser Campbell http://www.wehave.net/ Georgetown, Ontario, Canada Debian GNU/Linux -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 1 20:16:24 2003 From: fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Fraser Campbell) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 15:16:24 -0500 Subject: Chris is still confused In-Reply-To: <001801c3b83e$6c882250$0301a8c0-vAnPq90cUBg@public.gmane.org> References: <001801c3b83e$6c882250$0301a8c0@amazon> Message-ID: <200312011516.24252.fraser@wehave.net> On December 1, 2003 02:07 pm, Teddy Mills wrote: > internet interface is ppp0 > internal inteface is eth1 > > This is on a DNS and Web server (I know, not the idea, but Im pressed for > space.) > All I want to is stop everything coming in, and allow ports 22,25,53,80. Go to http://shorewall.sourceforge.net/ read their quickstart guide, install it, configure it, forget about it. -- Fraser Campbell http://www.wehave.net/ Georgetown, Ontario, Canada Debian GNU/Linux -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 1 20:53:21 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 15:53:21 -0500 Subject: God help us all... Message-ID: <20031201155321.281d5995.joehill@sympatico.ca> ""We'd like to have one of our operating systems in every car on Earth," said Dick Brass, vice-president of Microsoft's automotive business unit. "It's a lofty goal."" Isn't driving in Toronto scary *enough*? http://www.wired.com/news/autotech/0,2554,61412,00.html?tw=wn_tophead_7 -- JoeHill ++ ICQ # 280779813 Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "You tell me it's the institution; Well you know, you better free your mind instead..."-- John Lennon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From mgjk-cpI+UMyWUv9BDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 1 21:17:39 2003 From: mgjk-cpI+UMyWUv9BDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Mike Kallies) Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2003 16:17:39 -0500 Subject: Chris is still confused In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20031201143932.01ef9010-Nf8GSVjHSL5zk1aGpazrEgC/G2K4zDHf@public.gmane.org> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20031201143932.01ef9010@mail.interlog.com> Message-ID: <3FCBAFF3.7010307@idirect.com> Kevin Cozens wrote: > At 02:07 PM 12/01/2003 -0500, Teddy Mills wrote: > >> All I want to is stop everything coming in, and allow ports 22,25,53,80. >> >> Can someone post a generic one? Amazingly, this is not easy to find. >> My script is 95% there, but that last 5% will be difficult. >> Might be easier to work with a new script. > > [snip] > >> I want to start by not allowing anything, and then allowing only >> 22,25,53,80. > > > You might want to check out the MonMotha script at: > http://monmotha.mplug.org/firewall/index.php > > It is the script I am using on a couple of machines. It denies > everything except for what you tell it to allow. It is easily configured > by setting the contents of a few variables near the start of the script. On the subject of allowing 53, something which has always bothered me about a lot of these scripts (from monmotha): for server in ${DNS} ; do ${IPTABLES} -t filter -A INETIN -p udp -s ${server} --sport 53 -j UDPACCEPT echo -n "${server} " done Is it still possible these days to look up your victim's ISP's DNS servers, and send a source-port, source-ip spoofed UDP packet to any port on the machine? Provided that the malicious person is using an ISP which would let out any source-spoofed traffic which obviously could not have legitimately originated from within their network? Then you use that to attack a vulnerable service, to do something like an overflow attack to kill whatever was on a permitted port and open a shell on it. They specify that this is "only for zone transfers", I guess regular DNS queries are covered by: echo -n "Allowing established outbound connections back in..." ${IPTABLES} -t filter -A INETIN -m state --state ESTABLISHED,RELATED -j ACCEPT echo "done" I haven't hacked around with this stuff in a long time though :-( Just be super careful with 'deny all' inbound source-port 53 firewall configurations. -Mike -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 1 22:52:22 2003 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2003 17:52:22 -0500 Subject: God help us all... In-Reply-To: <20031201155321.281d5995.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <20031201155321.281d5995.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <3FCBC626.2060703@rogers.com> JoeHill wrote: > ""We'd like to have one of our operating systems in every car on Earth," said > Dick Brass, vice-president of Microsoft's automotive business unit. "It's a > lofty goal."" > > Isn't driving in Toronto scary *enough*? > > http://www.wired.com/news/autotech/0,2554,61412,00.html?tw=wn_tophead_7 > I suppose when you see a truck barreling down on you, you'll see a blue screen! ;-) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From aacton-B71PBEe7S7Y at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 1 23:04:23 2003 From: aacton-B71PBEe7S7Y at public.gmane.org (Austin) Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2003 18:04:23 -0500 Subject: God help us all... In-Reply-To: <3FCBC626.2060703-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <20031201155321.281d5995.joehill@sympatico.ca> <3FCBC626.2060703@rogers.com> Message-ID: <1070319860.2148.0.camel@gamma373-365.portable.resnet.yorku.ca> On Mon, 2003-12-01 at 17:52, James Knott wrote: > JoeHill wrote: > > ""We'd like to have one of our operating systems in every car on Earth," said > > Dick Brass, vice-president of Microsoft's automotive business unit. "It's a > > lofty goal."" > I suppose when you see a truck barreling down on you, you'll see a blue > screen! ;-) That's okay... you can just pull over and restart the engine. It will be fine for a few more kilometers. Austin -- Austin Acton Synthetic Organic Chemist, Teaching Assistant, Ph.D. Candidate Department of Chemistry, York University, Toronto MandrakeLinux Volunteer Developer, homepage: www.groundstate.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 1 23:08:36 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 18:08:36 -0500 Subject: God help us all... In-Reply-To: <1070319860.2148.0.camel-33sJirT1wKzlb5+wx7kmt/BjuwtQqDz/bwi28uEu5RN+FfftCXEu2Q@public.gmane.org> References: <20031201155321.281d5995.joehill@sympatico.ca> <3FCBC626.2060703@rogers.com> <1070319860.2148.0.camel@gamma373-365.portable.resnet.yorku.ca> Message-ID: <20031201180836.4b0a0b1c.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Mon, 01 Dec 2003 18:04:23 -0500 Austin wrote: > > I suppose when you see a truck barreling down on you, you'll see a blue > > screen! ;-) > > That's okay... you can just pull over and restart the engine. It will > be fine for a few more kilometers. ...ya, until this part kicks in: "The software running their brakes will upgrade itself wirelessly." That ought to be a fun experience coming down the 427 and running into a line of slow-moving transports...Windows Update patches your brake software and you end up a red smear on some guy's "How's My Driving?" bumper sticker. -- JoeHill ++ ICQ # 280779813 Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "Athens built the Acropolis. Corinth was a commercial city, interested in purely materialistic things. Today we admire Athens, visit it, preserve the old temples, yet we hardly ever set foot in Corinth."-- Dr. Harold Urey, Nobel Laureate in chemistry -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 1 23:16:07 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 18:16:07 -0500 Subject: The Mandrake "December Secret" Revealed Message-ID: <20031201181607.7d7ac3b2.joehill@sympatico.ca> Gael Duval had posted a cryptic note about something coming up in December, turns out it's a Live bootable CD with a complete 9.2 system: http://www.mandrakelinux.com/en/mandrakemove/ -- JoeHill ++ ICQ # 280779813 Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "The more laws and order are made prominent, the more thieves and robbers there will be."-- Lao Tsu -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From legrady-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 1 23:21:45 2003 From: legrady-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Tom Legrady) Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2003 18:21:45 -0500 Subject: God help us all... In-Reply-To: <20031201180836.4b0a0b1c.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <20031201155321.281d5995.joehill@sympatico.ca> <3FCBC626.2060703@rogers.com> <1070319860.2148.0.camel@gamma373-365.portable.resnet.yorku.ca> <20031201180836.4b0a0b1c.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <3FCBCD09.5020606@rogers.com> >>>I suppose when you see a truck barreling down on you, you'll see a blue >>>screen! ;-) >>> >>> >>That's okay... you can just pull over and restart the engine. It will >>be fine for a few more kilometers. >> >> But every once in a while it may be necessary to reformat ..... and you'll probably want to replace your engine with a larger one -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From aacton-B71PBEe7S7Y at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 1 23:31:59 2003 From: aacton-B71PBEe7S7Y at public.gmane.org (Austin) Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2003 18:31:59 -0500 Subject: The Mandrake "December Secret" Revealed In-Reply-To: <20031201181607.7d7ac3b2.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <20031201181607.7d7ac3b2.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <1070321517.2542.1.camel@gamma373-365.portable.resnet.yorku.ca> On Mon, 2003-12-01 at 18:16, JoeHill wrote: > Gael Duval had posted a cryptic note about something coming up in December, > turns out it's a Live bootable CD with a complete 9.2 system: Well, it's more than that though. Unlike most other live CD's, you can actually remove the CD (to play an audio CD for example), and it comes with a USB flash stick which acts as your /home. Pretty neat eh? Austin -- Austin Acton Synthetic Organic Chemist, Teaching Assistant, Ph.D. Candidate Department of Chemistry, York University, Toronto MandrakeLinux Volunteer Developer, homepage: www.groundstate.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From ttanski-iRg7kjdsKiH3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 2 00:17:47 2003 From: ttanski-iRg7kjdsKiH3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Terry Tanski) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 19:17:47 -0500 (EST) Subject: SMC Cable/DSL 4port router Message-ID: Hi all, Anyone have any comments on the SMC Cable/DSL 4port router (SMC7004VBR)? How does it compare to the DLINK (604) or the LinkSys (SR41)? Does it have half-decent firewall capabilities? Terry -- Terry Tanski, B.Sc. Phone: (416) 863-2126 Canada NewsWire Ltd. Fax: (416) 863-4825 20 Bay Street, Suite 1500 Email: ttanski-BEj8/MhvOJIsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Toronto, ON M5J 2N8 Web: http://www.newswire.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 2 02:17:36 2003 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2003 21:17:36 -0500 Subject: SMC Cable/DSL 4port router In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3FCBF640.9040400@rogers.com> Terry Tanski wrote: > Hi all, > > Anyone have any comments on the SMC Cable/DSL 4port router (SMC7004VBR)? > How does it compare to the DLINK (604) or the LinkSys (SR41)? Does it > have half-decent firewall capabilities? > > Terry > I have the wireless version of that. It seems to be OK. What capabilities were you looking for? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 2 02:18:10 2003 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2003 21:18:10 -0500 Subject: SMC Cable/DSL 4port router In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3FCBF662.3090601@rogers.com> Terry Tanski wrote: > Hi all, > > Anyone have any comments on the SMC Cable/DSL 4port router (SMC7004VBR)? > How does it compare to the DLINK (604) or the LinkSys (SR41)? Does it > have half-decent firewall capabilities? > > Terry > I have the wireless version of that. It seems to be OK. What capabilities were you looking for? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From login-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 2 02:50:52 2003 From: login-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (login-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 21:50:52 -0500 Subject: SMC Cable/DSL 4port router In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1611171003.20031201215052@istop.com> Hello Terry, Here is one review link which I found matching your two products in question: http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,4149,642988,00.asp S. Mohammad [login-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org] Monday, December 1, 2003, 7:17:47 PM, you wrote: TT> Hi all, TT> Anyone have any comments on the SMC Cable/DSL 4port router (SMC7004VBR)? TT> How does it compare to the DLINK (604) or the LinkSys (SR41)? Does it TT> have half-decent firewall capabilities? TT> Terry -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From blsonne-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 2 05:58:06 2003 From: blsonne-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Byron Sonne) Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 00:58:06 -0500 Subject: SOT: shitfs in spam trends and topics Message-ID: <3FCC29EE.8040408@rogers.com> Greetings, SOT = Somewhat Off Topic, though if there is a another acronym in more common usage let me know... Is there anyone out there that has paid attention to the trends in spam, in particular topics? Perhaps created a list of some kind, or a tree structure ie. financial, health, etc. and broken down further, of course. Database might be a better description. I don't want it for spam filtering, although that would be a great idea now that I think of it, but more for curiosity's sake. Lately I've been getting blasted by colon cleansing products, no pun intended ;) Is anyone else getting this? Another trend, although a somewhat longer one and at a low level of occurrence, are penis enlargement ads that have taken to insulting me. "Satisfy your woman, you pin-dick" was the most harsh, and perhaps relatedly, the funniest one as well. If aggressive derision toward a potential customer helps make you money then I should have been rich long ago! Later, B -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jason-gaRZxGPHtpBxZtjKW1aY+1aTQe2KTcn/ at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 2 11:09:00 2003 From: jason-gaRZxGPHtpBxZtjKW1aY+1aTQe2KTcn/ at public.gmane.org (Jason Shein) Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 06:09:00 -0500 Subject: Backup suggestion Message-ID: <3FCC72CC.9080309@pcsecurityonline.com> I have an idea that I would like to put out and get some input on. I am currently converting over numerous windows home users to linux. I want to implement a backup & restore scenario that is idiot proof, and that the individual users can recover from at their leisure. ( without tech support from me ) My idea is as follows. 1: Using cron to archive the users /home directory at regular intervals - time of day would be set by a config file set by root. Use of mondoarchive I feel would be of great benefit. There would have to be settings and checks based on disk space allocations and availability. I would prefer both a differential backup system as well as having a known good configuration as a last resort. 2: When a user goes to logon, at the bottom of the window manager selection list, there would be a "Restore from backup" option ( linking to a script that would initiate the recovery process ). this would prompt the user, indicating the possibility for loss of data created since last backup ( an indication of last backup by a timestamp would be good ) before finally recovering from the backup. Would this be possible? feasable? Is there already a tool out there to accomplish this? Any input would be appreciated. -- " Eventually people tire of repairing broken Windows, And decide to replace them with something stronger" (o_ //\ Linux - The Choice Of A GNU Generation V_/_ Jason Shein Linux Registered User #281100 jason-gaRZxGPHtpBxZtjKW1aY+1aTQe2KTcn/@public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 2 11:31:52 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 06:31:52 -0500 Subject: Debian attacker may have used new exploit In-Reply-To: <20031201062824.7db55103.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <20031201062824.7db55103.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <20031202063152.783ead2a.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Mon, 1 Dec 2003 06:28:24 -0500 JoeHill wrote: > "Initial investigations of the security breach, which occurred on 19 November, > indicate that the attacker was able to gain full control of Debian servers > after > logging on via unprivileged accounts, known as privilege escalation, according > to James Troup, part of the team handling Debian's distribution." > > http://news.zdnet.co.uk/software/developer/0,39020387,39118183,00.htm Yet more: "Recently multiple servers of the Debian project were compromised using a Debian developers account and an unknown root exploit. Forensics revealed a burneye encrypted exploit. Robert van der Meulen managed to decrypt the binary which revealed a kernel exploit. Study of the exploit by the RedHat and SuSE kernel and security teams quickly revealed that the exploit used an integer overflow in the brk system call. Using this bug it is possible for a userland program to trick the kernel into giving access to the full kernel address space. This problem was found in September by Andrew Morton, but unfortunately that was too late for the 2.4.22 kernel release. This bug has been fixed in kernel version 2.4.23 for the 2.4 tree and 2.6.0-test6 kernel tree. For Debian it has been fixed in version 2.4.18-12 of the kernel source packages, version 2.4.18-14 of the i386 kernel images and version 2.4.18-11 of the alpha kernel images." Also covered in MDKSA-2003:110: Problem Description: "A vulnerability was discovered in the Linux kernel versions 2.4.22 and previous. A flaw in bounds checking in the do_brk() function can allow a local attacker to gain root privileges. This vulnerability is known to be exploitable; an exploit is in the wild at this time. The Mandrake Linux 9.2 kernels are not vulnerable to this problem as the fix for it is already present in those kernels. MandrakeSoft encourages all users to upgrade their systems immediately." What confuses me, is that my default install of MDK 9.2 shows kernel version: 2.4.22-10 But MDK says 9.2 is safe. Can someone clarify this for me? -- JoeHill ++ ICQ # 280779813 Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "There are three side effects of acid: enhanced long-term memory, decreased short-term memory, and I forget the third."-- Timothy Leary -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From sidney-3Kd7Tu4o6f/sBN0MCq728g at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 2 11:55:43 2003 From: sidney-3Kd7Tu4o6f/sBN0MCq728g at public.gmane.org (Sidney Shapiro) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 06:55:43 -0500 Subject: Question about VNC Message-ID: <000001c3b8cb$3a4f4010$329e9c18@main> I installed VNC on a RH 9.0 server. It installed fine, but when I connect to it using my VNC prog and try to run X, I get the following error: [root]# startx Fatal server error: Server is already active for display 0 If this server is no longer running, remove /tmp/.X0-lock and start again. Any ideas? Thanks, Sidney -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 2 12:33:38 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 07:33:38 -0500 Subject: Question about VNC In-Reply-To: <000001c3b8cb$3a4f4010$329e9c18-UxDKcUsq0RM@public.gmane.org> References: <000001c3b8cb$3a4f4010$329e9c18@main> Message-ID: <20031202073338.43794a63.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Tue, 2 Dec 2003 06:55:43 -0500 "Sidney Shapiro" wrote: > Fatal server error: > Server is already active for display 0 > If this server is no longer running, remove /tmp/.X0-lock > and start again. VNC is already using display 0, so you would have to do: startx -- :1 Question, though. The whole point of VNC is that you have an X desktop open from the remote machine. Why start *another* X session on top of it? Instead, on the remote machine, there should be a ~/.vnc dir, create a file called xstartup, make it executable, and then edit it to start whatever desktop or window manager you want to run on VNC. -- JoeHill ++ ICQ # 280779813 Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "I'm even lethal when I'm unarmed, 'cuz I'm louder than a bomb!" -- Chuck D. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 2 12:41:09 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 07:41:09 -0500 Subject: Question about VNC In-Reply-To: <000001c3b8cb$3a4f4010$329e9c18-UxDKcUsq0RM@public.gmane.org> References: <000001c3b8cb$3a4f4010$329e9c18@main> Message-ID: <20031202074109.430eac9a.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Tue, 2 Dec 2003 06:55:43 -0500 "Sidney Shapiro" wrote: > error: [root]# startx isn't running X as root kinda dangerous anyway? -- JoeHill ++ ICQ # 280779813 Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "Athens built the Acropolis. Corinth was a commercial city, interested in purely materialistic things. Today we admire Athens, visit it, preserve the old temples, yet we hardly ever set foot in Corinth."-- Dr. Harold Urey, Nobel Laureate in chemistry -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From sidney-3Kd7Tu4o6f/sBN0MCq728g at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 2 12:59:41 2003 From: sidney-3Kd7Tu4o6f/sBN0MCq728g at public.gmane.org (Sidney Shapiro) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 07:59:41 -0500 Subject: Question about VNC In-Reply-To: <20031202073338.43794a63.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <20031202073338.43794a63.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <000d01c3b8d4$29ce2860$329e9c18@main> > > VNC is already using display 0, so you would have to do: > > startx -- :1 > > Question, though. The whole point of VNC is that you have an X desktop > open from > the remote machine. Why start *another* X session on top of it? > > Instead, on the remote machine, there should be a ~/.vnc dir, create a > file > called xstartup, make it executable, and then edit it to start whatever > desktop > or window manager you want to run on VNC. > Hmmm, I am trying to get my local VNC prog to display the RH X screen to show a client how to make some changes. Sid -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 2 13:00:35 2003 From: cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org (cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org) Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 08:00:35 -0500 Subject: SOT: shitfs in spam trends and topics In-Reply-To: Message from Byron Sonne of "Tue, 02 Dec 2003 00:58:06 EST." <3FCC29EE.8040408-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <3FCC29EE.8040408@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20031202130036.8DF5F4054@cbbrowne.com> > Another trend, although a somewhat longer one and at a low level of > occurrence, are penis enlargement ads that have taken to insulting me. > "Satisfy your woman, you pin-dick" was the most harsh, and perhaps > relatedly, the funniest one as well. If aggressive derision toward a > potential customer helps make you money then I should have been rich > long ago! Hmm... Let me visit folder +Spam/Snakeoil... Hmmm... - One "degree mill" - One "INFO ABOUT YOUR COLON" - A couple of "eBay Auction seminars" - Several "online prescription" notes - Five about copying DVDs - I wonder what "Gain 2-3 inches before X-Mas" might be? :-) And a dozen others that I don't feel like working further to identify. The odd trend I have been seeing is for there to be large numbers of spam messages that seem totally futile. There's no way of contacting them to buy their services. No URLs. No valid return address. No way for the message to be of any value whatever, supposing I _did_ want to increase my breasts by a couple of sizes. -- output = reverse("ac.notelrac.teneerf" "@" "454aa") http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/lsf.html "Sponges grow in the ocean. I wonder how much deeper the ocean would be if that didn't happen." -- Steven Wright -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 2 14:06:16 2003 From: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 09:06:16 -0500 (EST) Subject: Debian attacker may have used new exploit In-Reply-To: <20031202063152.783ead2a.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <20031201062824.7db55103.joehill@sympatico.ca> <20031202063152.783ead2a.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Dec 2003, JoeHill wrote: > What confuses me, is that my default install of MDK 9.2 shows kernel version: > > 2.4.22-10 > > But MDK says 9.2 is safe. > > Can someone clarify this for me? It is very common for distributions to patch their own kernels seperately to the main tree. This way they ensure minimalist changes to their kernel and also keep whatever customisation or optimisations they have previously incorporated. So when upgrading to avoid an exploit like this, either go for a vanilla kernel which is known to be fixed (2.4.23 in this case) _or_ whatever version your distro maintainers advise is safe. Rob -- Robert Brockway B.Sc. email: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org, zzbrock at uqconnect.net Linux counter project ID #16440 (http://counter.li.org) "The earth is but one country and mankind its citizens" -Baha'u'llah -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From a67582000-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 2 14:27:43 2003 From: a67582000-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Thomas Gibson) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 09:27:43 -0500 (EST) Subject: Question about VNC In-Reply-To: <000d01c3b8d4$29ce2860$329e9c18-UxDKcUsq0RM@public.gmane.org> References: <000d01c3b8d4$29ce2860$329e9c18@main> Message-ID: <20031202142743.76050.qmail@web10310.mail.yahoo.com> Sidney, Windows vncserver's behaviour is slightly different from Linux/Unix. In Windows(workstation), there is only one desktop/session so this is the one that is shared. In Linux, each vncserver sponses its own desktop/session which lasts for the lifetime of the server process. Vncserver runs its own pseudo-X-server, Xvnc which is conflicting with the xserver sponsed by start. Have a read of the Xvnc man page. It sounds like you are running init level 3(non-X11). In which cases desktops are unmanaged. If you change the init level to 5, Xdm will be running and display numbers will be managed for you automagically. This will get around the display number problem if your happy with the fact that your local desktop will be seperate from your VNC desktop. But.. I think you are looking for something more along the lines of KDE Desktop Sharing. Haven't used it but have a look at: http://www.tjansen.de/krfb/ Hope this helps. --- Sidney Shapiro wrote: > > > > VNC is already using display 0, so you would have > to do: > > > > startx -- :1 > > > > Question, though. The whole point of VNC is that > you have an X desktop > > open from > > the remote machine. Why start *another* X session > on top of it? > > > > Instead, on the remote machine, there should be a > ~/.vnc dir, create a > > file > > called xstartup, make it executable, and then edit > it to start > whatever > > desktop > > or window manager you want to run on VNC. > > > > Hmmm, I am trying to get my local VNC prog to > display the RH X screen to > show a client how to make some changes. > > Sid > > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: > http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text > below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From matt-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 2 14:30:11 2003 From: matt-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Matthew Rice) Date: 02 Dec 2003 09:30:11 -0500 Subject: SOT: shitfs in spam trends and topics In-Reply-To: <3FCC29EE.8040408-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <3FCC29EE.8040408@rogers.com> Message-ID: Byron Sonne writes: > SOT = Somewhat Off Topic, though if there is a another acronym in more common > usage let me know... Yeah, there is. It's 'OT'. > me. "Satisfy your woman, you pin-dick" was the most harsh, and perhaps > relatedly, the funniest one as well. If aggressive derision toward a > potential customer helps make you money then I should have been rich long > ago! The most hilarious spam that I ever got had the subject line 'Get exposed on the internet'. I think that they were offering to register me with various search engines. -- matthew rice starnix inc. phone: 905-771-0017 x242 thornhill, ontario, canada http://www.starnix.com professional linux services & products -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From sidney-3Kd7Tu4o6f/sBN0MCq728g at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 2 14:42:49 2003 From: sidney-3Kd7Tu4o6f/sBN0MCq728g at public.gmane.org (Sidney Shapiro) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 09:42:49 -0500 Subject: Question about VNC In-Reply-To: <20031202142743.76050.qmail-07caxM+fl5+A/QwVtaZbd3CJp6faPEW9@public.gmane.org> References: <20031202142743.76050.qmail@web10310.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <002201c3b8e2$922b3250$329e9c18@main> Thanks Thomas, KDE Desktop Sharing looks perfect. Sid > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org [mailto:owner-tlug at ss.org] On Behalf Of Thomas > Gibson > Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2003 9:28 AM > To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > Subject: RE: [TLUG]: Question about VNC > > Sidney, > > Windows vncserver's behaviour is slightly different > from Linux/Unix. In Windows(workstation), there is > only one desktop/session so this is the one that is > shared. In Linux, each vncserver sponses its own > desktop/session which lasts for the lifetime of the > server process. > > Vncserver runs its own pseudo-X-server, Xvnc which is > conflicting with the xserver sponsed by start. Have a > read of the Xvnc man page. It sounds like you are > running init level 3(non-X11). In which cases > desktops are unmanaged. If you change the init level > to 5, Xdm will be running and display numbers will be > managed for you automagically. This will get around > the display number problem if your happy with the fact > that your local desktop will be seperate from your VNC > desktop. > > But.. > > I think you are looking for something more along the > lines of KDE Desktop Sharing. Haven't used it but > have a look at: http://www.tjansen.de/krfb/ > > Hope this helps. > > --- Sidney Shapiro wrote: > > > > > > VNC is already using display 0, so you would have > > to do: > > > > > > startx -- :1 > > > > > > Question, though. The whole point of VNC is that > > you have an X desktop > > > open from > > > the remote machine. Why start *another* X session > > on top of it? > > > > > > Instead, on the remote machine, there should be a > > ~/.vnc dir, create a > > > file > > > called xstartup, make it executable, and then edit > > it to start > > whatever > > > desktop > > > or window manager you want to run on VNC. > > > > > > > Hmmm, I am trying to get my local VNC prog to > > display the RH X screen to > > show a client how to make some changes. > > > > Sid > > > > > > -- > > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: > > http://tlug.ss.org > > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text > > below 80 columns > > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: > http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > > ______________________________________________________________________ > Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From hughreilly1-PkbjNfxxIARBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 2 15:55:32 2003 From: hughreilly1-PkbjNfxxIARBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Hugh Reilly) Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 10:55:32 -0500 Subject: GUI2 Message-ID: OK, Now that this thread (which I'm afraid I started) has come to an end--even though I didn't see anyone mention Hitler but I did see mention of a certain member of the Buffalo Sabres--I'd like to announce the winners: Taavi Burns for: http://www.pycage.de/expocity.html http://xserver.freedesktop.org and Joe Hill for: http://rox.sourceforge.net Thanks everybody for participating. Unless I missed anything, these URLs by Taavi and Joe are serious on-topic answers to my serious-though-maybe-a-bit-mischievious question. Does anybody have any experiences with these or any rationale why these are or might be "GUI paradise" for the Linux user? -Hugh _______________________________________________ Hugh Reilly XEN Technology Group | LinuxLab 600 Bay Street, Suite 405 Toronto ON M5R 1G6 tel: 416-204-9951 fax: 416-204-9723 email: info-2K4XOyu7qTosA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org _______________________________________________ http://www.xen.ca | http://www.linuxlab.ca _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus&pgmarket=en-ca&RU=http%3a%2f%2fjoin.msn.com%2f%3fpage%3dmisc%2fspecialoffers%26pgmarket%3den-ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From tim-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 2 16:06:33 2003 From: tim-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Tim Writer) Date: 02 Dec 2003 11:06:33 -0500 Subject: SMC Cable/DSL 4port router In-Reply-To: <3FCBF640.9040400-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <3FCBF640.9040400@rogers.com> Message-ID: James Knott writes: > Terry Tanski wrote: > > Hi all, > > Anyone have any comments on the SMC Cable/DSL 4port router (SMC7004VBR)? > > How does it compare to the DLINK (604) or the LinkSys (SR41)? Does it have > > half-decent firewall capabilities? > > > Terry > > > > > I have the wireless version of that. It seems to be OK. What capabilities > were you looking for? Well, I worked on the wireless version for a while and was not at all impressed. The firewalling capabilities are only applicable to the Internet connection, i.e. you cannot firewall your wireless LAN from your traditional LAN. You can use MAC based ACLs to prevent wireless users from going out to the Internet but you can't stop them from accessing your wired LAN. You can also restrict wireless traffic but you can't implement a deny by default policy, i.e. you cannot deny everything except the few services you want to allow, you can only deny specific services. The bottom line: as long as you're not using wireless and you're using NAT, it will give you a basic level of protection simply due to the use of private IPs with NAT. IOW, it's okay for a simple home setting but I wouldn't use it in a business setting. -- tim writer starnix inc. 905.771.0017 ext. 225 thornhill, ontario, canada http://www.starnix.com professional linux services & products -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 2 16:14:40 2003 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 11:14:40 -0500 Subject: SMC Cable/DSL 4port router In-Reply-To: References: <3FCBF640.9040400@rogers.com> Message-ID: <3FCCBA70.5020503@alteeve.com> Tim Writer wrote: > James Knott writes: > > >>Terry Tanski wrote: >> >>>Hi all, >>>Anyone have any comments on the SMC Cable/DSL 4port router (SMC7004VBR)? >>>How does it compare to the DLINK (604) or the LinkSys (SR41)? Does it have >>>half-decent firewall capabilities? >> >>>Terry >> >>I have the wireless version of that. It seems to be OK. What capabilities >>were you looking for? > > > Well, I worked on the wireless version for a while and was not at all > impressed. The firewalling capabilities are only applicable to the Internet > connection, i.e. you cannot firewall your wireless LAN from your traditional > LAN. You can use MAC based ACLs to prevent wireless users from going out to > the Internet but you can't stop them from accessing your wired LAN. You can > also restrict wireless traffic but you can't implement a deny by default > policy, i.e. you cannot deny everything except the few services you want to > allow, you can only deny specific services. > > The bottom line: as long as you're not using wireless and you're using NAT, > it will give you a basic level of protection simply due to the use of private > IPs with NAT. IOW, it's okay for a simple home setting but I wouldn't use it > in a business setting. > Back when those routers first came out SMC was really the only one on the market and thus I sold a number of them. A -lot- of them later failed. I switched to using Linksys (now Cisco) and I haven't had a single failure yet. Madison -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 2 16:38:19 2003 From: henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org (Henry Spencer) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 11:38:19 -0500 (EST) Subject: Debian attacker may have used new exploit In-Reply-To: <20031202063152.783ead2a.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <20031202063152.783ead2a.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Dec 2003, JoeHill wrote: > "This bug has been fixed in kernel version 2.4.23 for the 2.4 tree and > 2.6.0-test6 kernel tree. For Debian it has been fixed in version > 2.4.18-12 of the kernel source packages, version 2.4.18-14 of the i386 > kernel images and version 2.4.18-11 of the alpha kernel images." > ... > What confuses me, is that my default install of MDK 9.2 shows kernel version: > 2.4.22-10 > But MDK says 9.2 is safe. Note the "-10" on the end. That is not a stock 2.4.22; it is their modified version of it. I don't know enough about Mandrake to say for sure about them, but this sort of thing often means that they've got their own package of favorite kernel mods and need a while to integrate it into a new kernel release, so the quickest way to respond to a problem is to manually put the fix for it into their current kernel, rather than instantly switching to the new kernel. Henry Spencer henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jason-gaRZxGPHtpBxZtjKW1aY+1aTQe2KTcn/ at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 2 16:59:08 2003 From: jason-gaRZxGPHtpBxZtjKW1aY+1aTQe2KTcn/ at public.gmane.org (Jason Shein) Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 11:59:08 -0500 Subject: Debian attacker may have used new exploit In-Reply-To: References: <20031201062824.7db55103.joehill@sympatico.ca> <20031202063152.783ead2a.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <3FCCC4DC.30304@pcsecurityonline.com> In the security alert I recived yesterday from Mandrake Security -snip- Package name: kernel Advisory ID: MDKSA-2003:110 Date: December 1st, 2003 Affected versions: 9.0, 9.1, Corporate Server 2.1, Multi Network Firewall 8.2 ______________________________________________________________________ Problem Description: A vulnerability was discovered in the Linux kernel versions 2.4.22 and previous. A flaw in bounds checking in the do_brk() function can allow a local attacker to gain root privileges. This vulnerability is known to be exploitable; an exploit is in the wild at this time. The Mandrake Linux 9.2 kernels are not vulnerable to this problem as the fix for it is already present in those kernels. MandrakeSoft encourages all users to upgrade their systems immediately. -snip- Robert Brockway wrote: > On Tue, 2 Dec 2003, JoeHill wrote: > > >>What confuses me, is that my default install of MDK 9.2 shows kernel version: >> >>2.4.22-10 >> >>But MDK says 9.2 is safe. >> >>Can someone clarify this for me? > > > It is very common for distributions to patch their own kernels seperately > to the main tree. This way they ensure minimalist changes to their kernel > and also keep whatever customisation or optimisations they have previously > incorporated. > > So when upgrading to avoid an exploit like this, either go for a vanilla > kernel which is known to be fixed (2.4.23 in this case) _or_ whatever > version your distro maintainers advise is safe. > > Rob > -- " Eventually people tire of repairing broken Windows, And decide to replace them with something stronger" (o_ //\ Linux - The Choice Of A GNU Generation V_/_ Jason Shein Linux Registered User #281100 jason-gaRZxGPHtpBxZtjKW1aY+1aTQe2KTcn/@public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jason-gaRZxGPHtpBxZtjKW1aY+1aTQe2KTcn/ at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 2 17:06:23 2003 From: jason-gaRZxGPHtpBxZtjKW1aY+1aTQe2KTcn/ at public.gmane.org (Jason Shein) Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 12:06:23 -0500 Subject: Captive: The first free NTFS read/write filesystem for GNU/Linux Message-ID: <3FCCC68F.9080501@pcsecurityonline.com> This ought to be interesting to see how stable this is. I dont think I will be testing this too soon on critical systems, but it is definitely something to watch. http://www.jankratochvil.net/project/captive/ -snip- Project implements the first full read/write free access to NTFS disk drives. You can mount your Microsoft Windows NT, 200x or XP partition as a transparently accessible volume for your GNU/Linux. This compatibility was achieved in the Wine way by using the original Microsoft Windows ntfs.sys driver. It emulates the required subsystems of the Microsoft Windows kernel by reusing one of the original ntoskrnl.exe, ReactOS parts, or this project's own reimplementations, on a case by case basis. Project includes the first open source MS-Windows kernel API for Free operating systems. Involvement of the original driver files was chosen to achieve the best and unprecedented filesystem compatibility and safety. As opposite to other projects this is currently the only software supporting the full read/write access including the possibility to create/delete files, modify directories etc. -snip- -- " Eventually people tire of repairing broken Windows, And decide to replace them with something stronger" (o_ //\ Linux - The Choice Of A GNU Generation V_/_ Jason Shein Linux Registered User #281100 jason-gaRZxGPHtpBxZtjKW1aY+1aTQe2KTcn/@public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jzygmont-tEQKYFGiemxAYG7eUwYNkWD2FQJk+8+b at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 2 18:49:25 2003 From: jzygmont-tEQKYFGiemxAYG7eUwYNkWD2FQJk+8+b at public.gmane.org (Justin Zygmont) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 13:49:25 -0500 (EST) Subject: Debian attacker may have used new exploit In-Reply-To: <20031202063152.783ead2a.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <20031202063152.783ead2a.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: what I don;t understand about this, is how could they know that this was the exploit the hacker used, what if there is something else? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From a67582000-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 2 18:54:49 2003 From: a67582000-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Thomas Gibson) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 13:54:49 -0500 (EST) Subject: Encrypted filesystems? In-Reply-To: <3FC957B8.80100-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <3FC957B8.80100@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20031202185449.69743.qmail@web10303.mail.yahoo.com> Just curious if anyone on the list knows what's available(, has had experience, etc) WRT encrypted filesystems under Linux? I see some older stuff on the web related to TCFS but was not able to find anything current. I am looking for a solution in which all encryption is done in the client. Thanks, Tom ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 2 19:09:58 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 14:09:58 -0500 Subject: GUI2 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20031202140958.385352c9.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Tue, 02 Dec 2003 10:55:32 -0500 "Hugh Reilly" wrote: > Does anybody have any experiences with these or any rationale why these are > or might be "GUI paradise" for the Linux user? I don't personally use the complete ROX desktop, but from what I've read on the list and the site, and from using what started it all, ROX Filer, it's all built around very serious simplicity and ease-of-use. It's very light on resources, comes with a plethora of very useful apps, like Archive, Edit, Memo (a calendar and scheduling app), Session, etc. See this page for more on the "modus" of ROX. It is actually supposed to be an implementation of a RISC OS-like desktop on X, hence the name. http://rox.sourceforge.net/phpwiki/index.php/WhatIsRox There are some great shots on the Wiki of various aspects of ROX in use. Even if you don't use the desktop, though, the filer kicks ass. It beats Nautilus and Konqueror all to hell for speed and simplicity, and has many advanced features I haven't even explored. You should also check out XFCE4, which is a bit more "familiar" than ROX, ie. it is similar to running, say, Gnome, but a *lot* lighter. http://www.xfce.org/ I don't know what distro you are using, but it should be easy to install from either Debian or Mandrake. -- JoeHill ++ ICQ # 280779813 Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Life is not a static thing. The only people who do not change their minds are incompetents in asylums who can't and those in cemeteries.-- Everett Dirksen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 2 19:17:24 2003 From: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 14:17:24 -0500 (EST) Subject: Debian attacker may have used new exploit In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Dec 2003, Justin Zygmont wrote: > what I don;t understand about this, is how could they know that this was > the exploit the hacker used, what if there is something else? I believe the attacker left some clues such as binaries lying around and these were reverse engineered, revealing the exploit. I understand the Redhat & Suse security teams worked with the Debian developers on this one. It isn't impossible that there is another exploit but I consider it unlikely. Occam's Razor suggests it is likely only one exploit was used. If I leave the front door open and the back door open a burglar will probably only enter through one of them. The burglar may not even discover the other is open. There might be other exploits on the Debian servers but that is as likely to be the case as on any other box. A properly patched box shouldn't have any known security problems. Rob -- Robert Brockway B.Sc. email: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org, zzbrock at uqconnect.net Linux counter project ID #16440 (http://counter.li.org) "The earth is but one country and mankind its citizens" -Baha'u'llah -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jason-2F8E0OLjuh154TAoqtyWWQ at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 2 20:47:45 2003 From: jason-2F8E0OLjuh154TAoqtyWWQ at public.gmane.org (Jason Slaughter) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 15:47:45 -0500 Subject: Toronto FreeNet stable now; wish it were co-op, tho In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200312021547.45043.jason@slaughter.com> Slightly OT: The Tororonto FreeNet sounds great, and I'd be interested in using them for DSL (I'm on Rogers Cable now). I'm curious though--is it possible to get DSL access these days without a Bell land line? Both myself and my girlfriend use cellphones exclusively, so we have no land line in our apartment. There is (of course) a physical phone jack and wire that has to go to the central office, but is it possible to get DSL on this without paying Bell for home phone service? DSL looks great, and it can be faster than Rogers, but the cost of DSL isn't so hot when I have to tack on $20+/month for a phone line I don't need. Jason -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From taavi-LbuTpDkqzNzXI80/IeQp7B2eb7JE58TQ at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 2 21:07:19 2003 From: taavi-LbuTpDkqzNzXI80/IeQp7B2eb7JE58TQ at public.gmane.org (Taavi Burns) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 16:07:19 -0500 Subject: Toronto FreeNet stable now; wish it were co-op, tho In-Reply-To: <200312021547.45043.jason-2F8E0OLjuh154TAoqtyWWQ@public.gmane.org> References: <200312021547.45043.jason@slaughter.com> Message-ID: <20031202210719.GE12898@hatefulsheep.ym.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> On Tue, Dec 02, 2003 at 03:47:45PM -0500, Jason Slaughter wrote: > DSL looks great, and it can be faster than Rogers, but the cost of DSL isn't > so hot when I have to tack on $20+/month for a phone line I don't need. I'm in the same boat as you. I have a friend who works the helpdesk for Telus in Alberta, and they do not offer such a service there. It's technically feasible (no reason you can't run DSL on "dry copper"), they just "don't do it." I suspect Bell/other DSL providers are the same. (now you see, the funny part is that my phone line isn't "dry"...it actually HAS a dialtone...it just won't let you dial anyone but Bell's sales department.) I should probably go ask them or something. -- taa /*eof*/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 2 21:25:04 2003 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 16:25:04 -0500 Subject: Toronto FreeNet stable now; wish it were co-op, tho In-Reply-To: <20031202210719.GE12898-9xiANKxwco42bRTacqR3/JR8nzhMnQZF/mqnPsBvoffFpvyHdVPjngC/G2K4zDHf@public.gmane.org> References: <200312021547.45043.jason@slaughter.com> <20031202210719.GE12898@hatefulsheep.ym.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> Message-ID: <20031202212504.GA5349@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Dec 02, 2003 at 04:07:19PM -0500, Taavi Burns wrote: > I'm in the same boat as you. I have a friend who works the helpdesk > for Telus in Alberta, and they do not offer such a service there. > > It's technically feasible (no reason you can't run DSL on "dry copper"), they > just "don't do it." I suspect Bell/other DSL providers are the same. > > > (now you see, the funny part is that my phone line isn't "dry"...it actually > HAS a dialtone...it just won't let you dial anyone but Bell's sales department.) > > I should probably go ask them or something. I would think the line will let you call *whatever it is to activate a line, AND 911. I think the 911 access was a reason they started leaving a dial tone on unused lines. The simpler activation method is probably another reason. Now can users of Sprint phone lines get DSL yet? Lennart Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 2 21:27:04 2003 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 16:27:04 -0500 Subject: GUI In-Reply-To: <20031130043200.27EFB3FF2-xzRQuAxiFLNWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org> References: <3FC6B487.5010502@rogers.com> <20031128024853.GA437@node1.opengeometry.net> <3FC7360A.1040705@rogers.com> <3FC75011.3000905@truxtar.com> <3FC7ECB7.5070701@rogers.com> <3FC8149D.9040006@truxtar.com> <20031129140127.D814C4038@cbbrowne.com> <20031129203140.GA356@node1.opengeometry.net> <20031130043200.27EFB3FF2@cbbrowne.com> Message-ID: <20031202212704.GB5349@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Sat, Nov 29, 2003 at 11:31:59PM -0500, cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org wrote: > Hmm? > > % ls /usr/src/linux/arch > alpha cris ia64 mips parisc ppc64 s390x sparc x86_64 > arm i386 m68k mips64 ppc s390 sh sparc64 > > Linux runs on at least 15 architectures NOT produced by Intel. Well technically intel does produce alpha and arm, i386 and ia64. :) I will give you the other 13. intel only invented 2 of them, but make 4 of them. Lennart Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 2 21:47:00 2003 From: cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org (cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org) Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 16:47:00 -0500 Subject: Linux a multiarchitecture system In-Reply-To: Message from lsorense@csclub.uwaterloo.ca (Lennart Sorensen) of "Tue, 02 Dec 2003 16:27:04 EST." <20031202212704.GB5349-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <3FC6B487.5010502@rogers.com> <20031128024853.GA437@node1.opengeometry.net> <3FC7360A.1040705@rogers.com> <3FC75011.3000905@truxtar.com> <3FC7ECB7.5070701@rogers.com> <3FC8149D.9040006@truxtar.com> <20031129140127.D814C4038@cbbrowne.com> <20031129203140.GA356@node1.opengeometry.net> <20031130043200.27EFB3FF2@cbbrowne.com> <20031202212704.GB5349@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20031202214701.E06FD4056@cbbrowne.com> > On Sat, Nov 29, 2003 at 11:31:59PM -0500, cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org wrote: > > Hmm? > > > > % ls /usr/src/linux/arch > > alpha cris ia64 mips parisc ppc64 s390x sparc x86_64 > > arm i386 m68k mips64 ppc s390 sh sparc64 > > > > Linux runs on at least 15 architectures NOT produced by Intel. > > Well technically intel does produce alpha and arm, i386 and ia64. :) They _manufacture_ Alpha and StrongARM, after having purchased rights from Digital. > I will give you the other 13. intel only invented 2 of them, but make 4 > of them. Whether or not we quibble over 2 of the architectures, there are still a LOT more non-Intel architectures than there are Intel architectures. -- (format nil "~S@~S" "cbbrowne" "cbbrowne.com") http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/spreadsheets.html We all live in a yellow subroutine, a yellow subroutine, a yellow subroutine... -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From taavi-LbuTpDkqzNzXI80/IeQp7B2eb7JE58TQ at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 2 21:59:16 2003 From: taavi-LbuTpDkqzNzXI80/IeQp7B2eb7JE58TQ at public.gmane.org (Taavi Burns) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 16:59:16 -0500 Subject: Toronto FreeNet stable now; wish it were co-op, tho In-Reply-To: <20031202212504.GA5349-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <200312021547.45043.jason@slaughter.com> <20031202210719.GE12898@hatefulsheep.ym.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> <20031202212504.GA5349@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20031202215916.GG12898@hatefulsheep.ym.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> On Tue, Dec 02, 2003 at 04:25:04PM -0500, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > I would think the line will let you call *whatever it is to activate a > line, AND 911. I think the 911 access was a reason they started leaving > a dial tone on unused lines. The simpler activation method is probably > another reason. I suspected as much, but was not about to test it directly. ;) > Now can users of Sprint phone lines get DSL yet? AFAIK that's not been the problem...it was that Bell refused to give Sympatico service to Sprint users. I was pretty sure the CRTC smacked them down for that, though. -- taa /*eof*/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 2 22:03:20 2003 From: cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org (cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org) Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 17:03:20 -0500 Subject: Encrypted filesystems? In-Reply-To: Message from Thomas Gibson of "Tue, 02 Dec 2003 13:54:49 EST." <20031202185449.69743.qmail-E0ph5jh9o1KA/QwVtaZbd3CJp6faPEW9@public.gmane.org> References: <20031202185449.69743.qmail@web10303.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20031202220321.7B1EE4056@cbbrowne.com> > Just curious if anyone on the list knows what's > available(, has had experience, etc) WRT encrypted > filesystems under Linux? I see some older stuff on > the web related to TCFS but was not able to find > anything current. I am looking for a solution in > which all encryption is done in the client. I use CFS, which is fairly widely available in packaged form, which "plays" as an NFS server. It's a bit slow, but it is pretty portable, requiring no kernel mods, which strikes me as a win. -- (format nil "~S@~S" "aa454" "freenet.carleton.ca") http://cbbrowne.com/info/linuxxian.html "You can only examine 10 levels of pushdown, because that's all the fingers you have to stick in the listing." -- Anonymous programmer - "TOPS-10 Crash Analysis Guide" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From linux-cOjNTMaGA5U at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 2 22:25:11 2003 From: linux-cOjNTMaGA5U at public.gmane.org (Ian Goldberg) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 17:25:11 -0500 Subject: Encrypted filesystems? In-Reply-To: <20031202185449.69743.qmail-E0ph5jh9o1KA/QwVtaZbd3CJp6faPEW9@public.gmane.org> References: <3FC957B8.80100@rogers.com> <20031202185449.69743.qmail@web10303.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20031202222511.GA3099@paip.net> On Tue, Dec 02, 2003 at 01:54:49PM -0500, Thomas Gibson wrote: > Just curious if anyone on the list knows what's > available(, has had experience, etc) WRT encrypted > filesystems under Linux? I see some older stuff on > the web related to TCFS but was not able to find > anything current. I am looking for a solution in > which all encryption is done in the client. I use loop-aes. http://loop-aes.sf.net/ It's good for swap, as well as for filesystems. - Ian -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jzygmont-tEQKYFGiemxAYG7eUwYNkWD2FQJk+8+b at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 2 22:50:10 2003 From: jzygmont-tEQKYFGiemxAYG7eUwYNkWD2FQJk+8+b at public.gmane.org (Justin Zygmont) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 17:50:10 -0500 (EST) Subject: SOT: shitfs in spam trends and topics In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I was toying with an ICQ bot the other night, it would answer the same questions with different answers, I was hoping I could hack it and find a way to take control of it. Anyone know if that's possible? I mean there has to be a way of controlling it. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jzygmont-tEQKYFGiemxAYG7eUwYNkWD2FQJk+8+b at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 2 23:01:31 2003 From: jzygmont-tEQKYFGiemxAYG7eUwYNkWD2FQJk+8+b at public.gmane.org (Justin Zygmont) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 18:01:31 -0500 (EST) Subject: Debian attacker may have used new exploit In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I guess they're going to take security a bit more seriously now? hehe On Tue, 2 Dec 2003, Robert Brockway wrote: > On Tue, 2 Dec 2003, Justin Zygmont wrote: > > > what I don;t understand about this, is how could they know that this was > > the exploit the hacker used, what if there is something else? > > I believe the attacker left some clues such as binaries lying around and > these were reverse engineered, revealing the exploit. I understand the > Redhat & Suse security teams worked with the Debian developers on this > one. > > It isn't impossible that there is another exploit but I consider it > unlikely. Occam's Razor suggests it is likely only one exploit was used. > If I leave the front door open and the back door open a burglar will > probably only enter through one of them. The burglar may not even > discover the other is open. > > There might be other exploits on the Debian servers but that is as likely > to be the case as on any other box. A properly patched box shouldn't have > any known security problems. > > Rob > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 2 23:10:44 2003 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 18:10:44 -0500 Subject: SMC Cable/DSL 4port router In-Reply-To: References: <3FCBF640.9040400@rogers.com> Message-ID: <3FCD1BF4.1040306@rogers.com> Tim Writer wrote: > James Knott writes: > > >>Terry Tanski wrote: >> >>>Hi all, >>>Anyone have any comments on the SMC Cable/DSL 4port router (SMC7004VBR)? >>>How does it compare to the DLINK (604) or the LinkSys (SR41)? Does it have >>>half-decent firewall capabilities? >> >>>Terry >> >>I have the wireless version of that. It seems to be OK. What capabilities >>were you looking for? > > > Well, I worked on the wireless version for a while and was not at all > impressed. The firewalling capabilities are only applicable to the Internet > connection, i.e. you cannot firewall your wireless LAN from your traditional > LAN. You can use MAC based ACLs to prevent wireless users from going out to > the Internet but you can't stop them from accessing your wired LAN. You can > also restrict wireless traffic but you can't implement a deny by default > policy, i.e. you cannot deny everything except the few services you want to > allow, you can only deny specific services. > > The bottom line: as long as you're not using wireless and you're using NAT, > it will give you a basic level of protection simply due to the use of private > IPs with NAT. IOW, it's okay for a simple home setting but I wouldn't use it > in a business setting. > I've got mine between my Linux firewall and cable modem. This way, the only way into my home network, is via CIPE VPN or SSH. Anyone wanting to access the internet will have to get past the 124 (actually 104) bit WEP, and yes I'm aware of it's weakness. It would be nice if you could turn around the firewall part of it, so that you could filter the wireless and plug the WAN side into the local network. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 2 23:11:43 2003 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 18:11:43 -0500 Subject: SMC Cable/DSL 4port router In-Reply-To: <3FCCBA70.5020503-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <3FCBF640.9040400@rogers.com> <3FCCBA70.5020503@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <3FCD1C2F.1090606@rogers.com> Madison Kelly wrote: > > Back when those routers first came out SMC was really the only one on > the market and thus I sold a number of them. A -lot- of them later > failed. I switched to using Linksys (now Cisco) and I haven't had a > single failure yet. > > Madison A friend of mine has an SMC Barricade. It's been running well for a couple of years. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From mike.kirk-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 3 00:01:29 2003 From: mike.kirk-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (Mike Kirk) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 19:01:29 -0500 Subject: Encrypted filesystems? OT - _compressed_ filesystems? References: <3FC957B8.80100@rogers.com> <20031202185449.69743.qmail@web10303.mail.yahoo.com> <20031202222511.GA3099@paip.net> Message-ID: <008101c3b930$9ac95380$1b00a8c0@cruncher> > I use loop-aes. http://loop-aes.sf.net/ It's good for swap, as well as > for filesystems. Not to hijack the thread too much, but has anybody come across something similar (i.e. a loopback device) for compressed filesystems? I've read about squash/cramFS, but it seems with those you end up with a read-only filesystem? I keep several days of online backups using rsync/hard-links (http://www.mikerubel.org/computers/rsync_snapshots/), and I could save lots of space if the diffs were compressed. In this case I have DVD-based backups as well, and saving space on these non-critical online backups would let me keep more days of backups available at once. Regards, Mike -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 3 05:24:51 2003 From: cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org (cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 00:24:51 -0500 Subject: Debian attacker may have used new exploit In-Reply-To: Message from Justin Zygmont of "Tue, 02 Dec 2003 13:49:25 EST." References: Message-ID: <20031203052452.CBAE84056@cbbrowne.com> > what I don;t understand about this, is how could they know that this was > the exploit the hacker used, what if there is something else? The attacker left some binaries lying around, and an analysis of their contents showed up code pointing at that particular exploit. It is, of course, conceivable that the attacker might have used some other unknown mechanism, and left the binaries around to mislead them into believing that particular attack was used. But that is rather like finding your home burgled, and, seeing normal burglary tools lying around, assuming that it was, instead, black-ops NSA agents trying to make it LOOK like an ordinary burglary. Forgive me if I were to wonder, in such a case, if you were not just a little bit off your rocker... -- let name="cbbrowne" and tld="ntlug.org" in name ^ "@" ^ tld;; http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/spreadsheets.html Rules of the Evil Overlord #96. "My door mechanisms will be designed so that blasting the control panel on the outside seals the door and blasting the control panel on the inside opens the door, not vice versa." -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From rufmetal-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 3 05:22:29 2003 From: rufmetal-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org (Chris Keelan) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 00:22:29 -0500 Subject: Debian attacker may have used new exploit In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20031203002229.4052310b.rufmetal@eol.ca> On Tue, 2 Dec 2003 18:01:31 -0500 (EST) Justin Zygmont wrote: > I guess they're going to take security a bit more seriously now? hehe Read the Debian Investigation Report After Server Compromises at . They've /always/ taken security seriously. The wisest approach to is to assume that you're going to get 0wn3d and plan accordingly. Ask yourself: if this were a certain proprietary company, would this news leak out so quickly, and would said organization publish a detailed post-mortem as soon as one is available? I think that Debian getting 0wn3d demonstrates not only that the FS community is committed to security but that this commitment actually pays off. ~ C -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jerome-mhXWc29+iYPyG1zEObXtfA at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 3 05:25:03 2003 From: jerome-mhXWc29+iYPyG1zEObXtfA at public.gmane.org (JM) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 13:25:03 +0800 Subject: Sendmail for smtp routing.. Message-ID: <200312031325.03034.jerome@gmanmi.tv> hi, would it be possible to route all mails to a different mail server whos recipient belongs to mydomain.com only.. TIA, -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 3 06:50:44 2003 From: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 01:50:44 -0500 (EST) Subject: Debian attacker may have used new exploit In-Reply-To: <20031203002229.4052310b.rufmetal-MwcKTmeKVNQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20031203002229.4052310b.rufmetal@eol.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Dec 2003, Chris Keelan wrote: > They've /always/ taken security seriously. The wisest approach to Here here. The Debian people take security very seriously. This is evident all over the distribution. Rob -- Robert Brockway B.Sc. email: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org, zzbrock at uqconnect.net Linux counter project ID #16440 (http://counter.li.org) "The earth is but one country and mankind its citizens" -Baha'u'llah -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 3 10:18:26 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 05:18:26 -0500 Subject: Debian attacker may have used new exploit In-Reply-To: <20031203052452.CBAE84056-xzRQuAxiFLNWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org> References: <20031203052452.CBAE84056@cbbrowne.com> Message-ID: <20031203051826.6f7207f8.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Wed, 03 Dec 2003 00:24:51 -0500 cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org wrote: > But that is rather like finding your home burgled, and, seeing normal > burglary tools lying around, assuming that it was, instead, black-ops > NSA agents trying to make it LOOK like an ordinary burglary. That would be *my* first assumption, 'course I just watched Enemy of the State for the fifteenth time...Tony Scott and Gene Hackman, ya can't go wrong! Back on topic though, I just can't resist the notion that somehow this is an attempt at a smear campaign by "enemy agents". I could see Darl McBride, sitting in a dark office, merc hackers standing at the ready..."See what you can do..." ;-) -- JoeHill ++ ICQ # 280779813 Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding." -- John Kenneth Galbraith -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 3 10:22:56 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 05:22:56 -0500 Subject: Debian attacker may have used new exploit In-Reply-To: <20031203002229.4052310b.rufmetal-MwcKTmeKVNQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20031203002229.4052310b.rufmetal@eol.ca> Message-ID: <20031203052256.1fd67e8a.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Wed, 3 Dec 2003 00:22:29 -0500 Chris Keelan wrote: > Ask yourself: if this were a certain proprietary company, would this > news leak out so quickly, and would said organization publish a detailed > post-mortem as soon as one is available? There's no "if". Microsoft actually got seriously pissed recently when news of *seven* new vulnerabilities, two of them critical, was released to the general public rather than being privately and secretly notified themselves. -- JoeHill ++ ICQ # 280779813 Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "The US is our trading partner, our neighbour, our ally and our friend... and sometimes we'd like to give them such a smack!"-- Rick Mercer -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jmm-TU2q2He6PgRlD5gtYiU6kEEOCMrvLtNR at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 3 13:24:38 2003 From: jmm-TU2q2He6PgRlD5gtYiU6kEEOCMrvLtNR at public.gmane.org (John Macdonald) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 08:24:38 -0500 Subject: Debian attacker may have used new exploit In-Reply-To: <20031203052256.1fd67e8a.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <20031203002229.4052310b.rufmetal@eol.ca> <20031203052256.1fd67e8a.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <20031203082437.E877@algate.perlwolf.com> On Wed, Dec 03, 2003 at 05:22:56AM -0500, JoeHill wrote: > On Wed, 3 Dec 2003 00:22:29 -0500 > Chris Keelan wrote: > > > Ask yourself: if this were a certain proprietary company, would this > > news leak out so quickly, and would said organization publish a detailed > > post-mortem as soon as one is available? > > There's no "if". Microsoft actually got seriously pissed recently when news of > *seven* new vulnerabilities, two of them critical, was released to the general > public rather than being privately and secretly notified themselves. That's a different matter and worthy of everyone being pissed. Anyone finding a new vulnerability should notify the owner of the code and give them some time to find a cure before making a public announcement. For an open source project, the original notification will be partially public, but you still should not try to make the news widely public until there has been adequate time to find a fix and distribute it. (Proprietary source products often require a longer period of time for that process to be carried out.) After the period of time is up, then announcing the vulnerability is fine (and if the code owner has wasted the time and not arranged a fix to be distributed widely enough, it rightly looks bad on them). -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 3 12:46:08 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 07:46:08 -0500 Subject: Debian attacker may have used new exploit In-Reply-To: <20031203082437.E877-TU2q2He6PgRlD5gtYiU6kEEOCMrvLtNR@public.gmane.org> References: <20031203002229.4052310b.rufmetal@eol.ca> <20031203052256.1fd67e8a.joehill@sympatico.ca> <20031203082437.E877@algate.perlwolf.com> Message-ID: <20031203074608.2c2b1be1.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Wed, 3 Dec 2003 08:24:38 -0500 John Macdonald wrote: > > > Ask yourself: if this were a certain proprietary company, would this > > > news leak out so quickly, and would said organization publish a detailed > > > post-mortem as soon as one is available? > > > > There's no "if". Microsoft actually got seriously pissed recently when news > > of *seven* new vulnerabilities, two of them critical, was released to the > > general public rather than being privately and secretly notified > > themselves. > > That's a different matter and worthy of everyone being > pissed. Anyone finding a new vulnerability should > notify the owner of the code and give them some time > to find a cure before making a public announcement. > For an open source project, the original notification > will be partially public, but you still should not > try to make the news widely public until there has > been adequate time to find a fix and distribute it. > (Proprietary source products often require a longer > period of time for that process to be carried out.) > After the period of time is up, then announcing > the vulnerability is fine (and if the code owner > has wasted the time and not arranged a fix to be > distributed widely enough, it rightly looks bad > on them). I think considering MS's past behaviour in this respect (ie. taking *months* to issue fixes that do not even work), the discoverers of the vulnerabilities did the right thing. Leaving that aside, MS has no right to expect "courtesy" from the security community, taking into account it has acted with aggressive intolerance at any and all criticism of it's security track record, witness the recent case of the CCIA report and the subsequent firing of it's principle author from an MS-connected company, @Stake. The argument that public disclosure of security flaws encourages hackers is very weak, and reeks of justification, in comparison to the logically sound idea that more public scrutiny means more pressure, and more resources, brought to bear to fix said bugs. Hence Eric S. Raymond's "many eyes make all bugs shallow." -- JoeHill ++ ICQ # 280779813 Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "I have the South in front of me and the bankers behind me -- and for my country, I fear the bankers most."-- Abraham Lincoln -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 3 13:21:32 2003 From: colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 08:21:32 -0500 Subject: Job opportunity for someone with Windows Exchange server experience... References: <3FCC29EE.8040408@rogers.com> Message-ID: <002001c3b9a0$5e80a160$4201a8c0@ym.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> reSource (where I work) is looking for someone with Windows Exchange server expeience to do a specific job. reSource has just transitioned to a FreeBSD based mail system (after the Microsoft Exchange server crashed a few too many times). But there is a problem, just after the transition the Exchange server crashed (yet again) and now some data (like contact lists) are unavailable across the network (even though the exchange server appears to boot up just fine). So, we need to recouver the data the is (hopefully) still on that exchange server. Payment for this job would be in used PC hardware, not cash. If interested e-mail me at my office: cmcgregor-mM4Wr0jTRcc at public.gmane.org Colin McGregor -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jmm-TU2q2He6PgRlD5gtYiU6kEEOCMrvLtNR at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 3 14:16:11 2003 From: jmm-TU2q2He6PgRlD5gtYiU6kEEOCMrvLtNR at public.gmane.org (John Macdonald) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 09:16:11 -0500 Subject: Debian attacker may have used new exploit In-Reply-To: <20031203074608.2c2b1be1.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <20031203002229.4052310b.rufmetal@eol.ca> <20031203052256.1fd67e8a.joehill@sympatico.ca> <20031203082437.E877@algate.perlwolf.com> <20031203074608.2c2b1be1.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <20031203091610.F877@algate.perlwolf.com> On Wed, Dec 03, 2003 at 07:46:08AM -0500, JoeHill wrote: > On Wed, 3 Dec 2003 08:24:38 -0500 > John Macdonald wrote: > > > > > Ask yourself: if this were a certain proprietary company, would this > > > > news leak out so quickly, and would said organization publish a detailed > > > > post-mortem as soon as one is available? > > > > > > There's no "if". Microsoft actually got seriously pissed recently when news > > > of *seven* new vulnerabilities, two of them critical, was released to the > > > general public rather than being privately and secretly notified > > > themselves. > > > > That's a different matter and worthy of everyone being > > pissed. Anyone finding a new vulnerability should > > notify the owner of the code and give them some time > > to find a cure before making a public announcement. > > For an open source project, the original notification > > will be partially public, but you still should not > > try to make the news widely public until there has > > been adequate time to find a fix and distribute it. > > (Proprietary source products often require a longer > > period of time for that process to be carried out.) > > After the period of time is up, then announcing > > the vulnerability is fine (and if the code owner > > has wasted the time and not arranged a fix to be > > distributed widely enough, it rightly looks bad > > on them). > > I think considering MS's past behaviour in this respect (ie. taking *months* to > issue fixes that do not even work), the discoverers of the vulnerabilities did > the right thing. Leaving that aside, MS has no right to expect "courtesy" from > the security community, taking into account it has acted with aggressive > intolerance at any and all criticism of it's security track record, witness the > recent case of the CCIA report and the subsequent firing of it's principle > author from an MS-connected company, @Stake. MS has a poor track record for sure, but your example was not a case of MS acting poorly - they weren't given a chance. Now you're saying they don't deserve a chance, but that is irrelevant to your original point that this example proved that open source does a better job. The open source community can't fix problem before they know of them either. > The argument that public disclosure of security flaws encourages hackers is very > weak, and reeks of justification, in comparison to the logically sound idea that > more public scrutiny means more pressure, and more resources, brought to bear to > fix said bugs. Hence Eric S. Raymond's "many eyes make all bugs shallow." Immediate public disclosure does not provide more eyes for a bug in MS code, just more eyes in the cracker community. Telling MS of a bug, and then telling the world later of the bug (and that MS was told a month earlier so that people can judge whether their response was adequate) provide more than ample pressure, and may reduce the number of exploits carried out against victims who have never had any warning or chance to apply a fix because there wasn't one. If MS responds prompty (which they are doing better at these days - they've learned that they have to), then when the public announcement goes out any attacks prompted by the announcement can only be applied against people who have not yet applied the fix. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 3 13:43:50 2003 From: fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Fraser Campbell) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 08:43:50 -0500 Subject: Sendmail for smtp routing.. In-Reply-To: <200312031325.03034.jerome-mhXWc29+iYPyG1zEObXtfA@public.gmane.org> References: <200312031325.03034.jerome@gmanmi.tv> Message-ID: <200312030843.50707.fraser@wehave.net> On December 3, 2003 12:25 am, JM wrote: > would it be possible to route all mails to a different mail server whos > recipient belongs to mydomain.com only.. Yes but why don't you just set the MX record correctly in DNS? With a correct MX record it will automatically go to the mail server of your choice. -- Fraser Campbell http://www.wehave.net/ Georgetown, Ontario, Canada Debian GNU/Linux -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 3 13:59:17 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 08:59:17 -0500 Subject: Debian attacker may have used new exploit In-Reply-To: <20031203091610.F877-TU2q2He6PgRlD5gtYiU6kEEOCMrvLtNR@public.gmane.org> References: <20031203002229.4052310b.rufmetal@eol.ca> <20031203052256.1fd67e8a.joehill@sympatico.ca> <20031203082437.E877@algate.perlwolf.com> <20031203074608.2c2b1be1.joehill@sympatico.ca> <20031203091610.F877@algate.perlwolf.com> Message-ID: <20031203085917.05bc6da3.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Wed, 3 Dec 2003 09:16:11 -0500 John Macdonald wrote: > Immediate public disclosure does not provide more eyes > for a bug in MS code, just more eyes in the cracker > community. That is a myth, propagated by MS and other proprietary vendors, to avoid embarassment and having to do actual work to improve security. Witness the recent case of Diebold and their voting machines. If it were not for the work of students and activists at Swarthmore College, no one would ever have known of the security flaws. Diebold certainly showed no interest in fixing the problem, even though internal memos showed they were aware of those flaws. It was only after said students published the internal memos online that enough pressure is being brought to bear on Diebold to fix the vulnerabilities. Now what software were those machines running agian...? Oh, that's right, MS. > Telling MS of a bug, and then telling the world later > of the bug (and that MS was told a month earlier > so that people can judge whether their response was > adequate) provide more than ample pressure, and may > reduce the number of exploits carried out against > victims who have never had any warning or chance to > apply a fix because there wasn't one. If MS responds > prompty (which they are doing better at these days - > they've learned that they have to), then when the > public announcement goes out any attacks prompted by > the announcement can only be applied against people > who have not yet applied the fix. Again, facts and reality fly in the face of this argument. Hackers are usually, if not always, aware of these vulnerabilities before the security "establishment", and certainly before software designers can come up with a patch. Full public disclosure is one way to give the vast majority of users a head start, before a patch can even be issued, so that they can at least be aware of the risk. In fact, following this logic, it could be proposed that disclosure be even *more* widespread, as soon and as widely as possible. Security issues are not solved by a patch, they are mitigated by awareness. Finally, there is no way to develop an enforceable "policy" in this regard, so it is not realistic to expect that, even if you assume this "myth" is true, people will not go on publicly releasing info on exploits. It's more realistic to find a way to deal with the *expectation* that the exploits are already widely known, and to work from there. If you read the full account of the Debian incident, you will see that that is exactly what happened, and exactly the attitude that was taken. Nothing radical here! In fact, if you do a quick google on this topic, you will find that nothing I'm saying is particularly original, this is the opinion of much bigger fish than you or I. -- JoeHill ++ ICQ # 280779813 Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness."-- John Kenneth Galbraith -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 3 14:59:43 2003 From: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 09:59:43 -0500 (EST) Subject: Debian attacker may have used new exploit In-Reply-To: <20031203085917.05bc6da3.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <20031203002229.4052310b.rufmetal@eol.ca> <20031203052256.1fd67e8a.joehill@sympatico.ca> <20031203082437.E877@algate.perlwolf.com> <20031203074608.2c2b1be1.joehill@sympatico.ca> <20031203091610.F877@algate.perlwolf.com> <20031203085917.05bc6da3.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Dec 2003, JoeHill wrote: > Again, facts and reality fly in the face of this argument. Hackers are > usually, if not always, aware of these vulnerabilities before the > security "establishment", and certainly before software designers can > come up with a Years in the security arena make me disagree with this statement. Most "Hackers" (I prefer the term Crackers but there you go) are script-kiddies. The number of Black Hats (people who are actually serious crackers in their own right) is, and has always been, very small. Far smaller than the security establishment. Most exploits discovered these days are found by those who launch a concerted effort to detect them. By sheer number and amount of effort most of the people who discover exploits are in the security establishment and are not Black Hats. I, along with most security professionals, maintain that the vendors/developers are better off receiving some amount of warning before the exploit goes public. This period can be quite short: 2-4 weeks is fine. Lists like Bugtraq now have specified grace periods that a vendor should have to fix a problem. If they haven't patched after this period, then it is time enough to release the exploit to the world. The problem with this is approach is that while it definately speeds up lazy vendors it creates a race condition: Will the bad guys get to a working exploit before the good guys get a fix out. The reality is the idea of providing vendors a grace period before releasing info on a vulnerability/exploit has been working well for many years and we have all benefitted from it. Most exploits fixed in this way don't get the media attention of ones released on an unsuspecting world so the hard work of many security professionals goes unacknowledged (how typical :) > patch. Full public disclosure is one way to give the vast majority of users a Not true. The vast majority of users can't fix the problem for themselves. They are reliant on a vendor (using the term generically here to include OSS development teams) and the public disclosure has just put the vendor at odds with Black Hats who now know about the exploit. Immediate public disclosure just creates a situation where bad buys & good guys are working on the exploit at the same time, instead of providing the vendor with a head start to getting a fix. > head start, before a patch can even be issued, so that they can at least be > aware of the risk. In fact, following this logic, it could be proposed that Most exploits have few or no ways of mitigating risk without taking down services/servers so knowledge of the risk without viable means to protect against it is only of limited use (trust me I've been there :) It does keep you up at night watching firewall and IDS logs though. > disclosure be even *more* widespread, as soon and as widely as possible. > Security issues are not solved by a patch, they are mitigated by awareness. Software vulnerabilities are normally fixed by patches but I'll agree that security overall is more a function of awareness. I think this sentence mixes up too different concepts (specific security issues vs security procedures and knowledge). > Finally, there is no way to develop an enforceable "policy" in this Do you follow Bugtraq? The policy of advising a vendor first is not formally enforceable but it works anyway. Peer pressure can be a positive force in some instances. Well, there's my position. I won't be replying to this thread again unless interesting new material is added. I find all too often that people will follow up, just repeating (or slightly varying from) what has already been said and the arguments go round and round. As far as I'm concerned Joe and I have differing opinions and have both expressed them now. I won't waste time following up if I'm only going to be repeating what I've already said. Rob -- Robert Brockway B.Sc. email: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org, zzbrock at uqconnect.net Linux counter project ID #16440 (http://counter.li.org) "The earth is but one country and mankind its citizens" -Baha'u'llah -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From tlug-KfBRzk3UKwol8X4E99VVQg at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 3 15:11:00 2003 From: tlug-KfBRzk3UKwol8X4E99VVQg at public.gmane.org (Mailing List) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 10:11:00 -0500 Subject: MisterHouse / x10 /home automation Message-ID: Has anyone used x10 or home automation in their house? Where is a good place to shop for x10 stuff? Any recommendations? Robert -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 3 15:47:24 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 10:47:24 -0500 Subject: Debian attacker may have used new exploit In-Reply-To: References: <20031203002229.4052310b.rufmetal@eol.ca> <20031203052256.1fd67e8a.joehill@sympatico.ca> <20031203082437.E877@algate.perlwolf.com> <20031203074608.2c2b1be1.joehill@sympatico.ca> <20031203091610.F877@algate.perlwolf.com> <20031203085917.05bc6da3.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <20031203104724.41de22fd.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Wed, 3 Dec 2003 09:59:43 -0500 (EST) Robert Brockway wrote: > Well, there's my position. I won't be replying to this thread again > unless interesting new material is added. I find all too often that > people will follow up, just repeating (or slightly varying from) what has > already been said and the arguments go round and round. As far as I'm > concerned Joe and I have differing opinions and have both expressed them > now. I won't waste time following up if I'm only going to be repeating > what I've already said. Like to have the last word, eh? People like car ananlogies, so here goes: A certain brand of tire, it is discovered, has a propensity for explosive tread separation at highway speeds. Do we keep this info private, until the vendor can supply a patch? No. We immediately inform the public that there is a risk, so that they can take steps to reduce that risk, such as using another brand of tire or modifying their driving habits, or, if so inclined, staying off the road altogether until the vendor can supply a tire which does not go "boom". I have found/seen no empirical evidence to suggest that crackers (you are correct, I think in that distinction) benefit from disclosure, but I have read many accounts of public disclosure of security risks leading to timely and effective mitigation, such as the examples I have already posted. If someone could point me to a source which contradicts this evidence, I would gladly eat my words, otherwise, the idea that these script kiddies benefit *substantially* from public disclosure of vulnerabilities remains, in my mind, merely a theory. The fact that it is proposed primarily by proprietary software vendors also makes me suspicious. To wit: http://www.wild.lib.fl.us/bib/disclosure-by-date.html You will notice that proprietary vendors are by far the most vocal about keeping a lid on newly discovered exploits, whereas the actual security professionals see more good than harm in publicly disclosing them. My favourite quote, from: http://www.computerworld.dk/usarticles.asp?Mode=1&USArticleID=2682 ""On analysis of the code of the Slammer worm it is apparent that my code was used as its template," Litchfield wrote. Many parts of the worm's code were identical to the published proof of concept code, but the worm was not simply a copy of the published example, Litchfield said. "It (is) apparent that whoever authored the worm knew how to write buffer overflow exploits and would have been capable of doing this without using my shellcode as a template," Litchfield wrote. The code taken from Litchfield's published exploit saved the worm's real writer "about 20 or so minutes," Litchfield wrote." -- JoeHill ++ ICQ # 280779813 Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "Where the state begins, individual liberty ceases, and vice versa." -- Bakunin -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 3 16:02:47 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 11:02:47 -0500 Subject: Debian attacker may have used new exploit In-Reply-To: References: <20031203002229.4052310b.rufmetal@eol.ca> <20031203052256.1fd67e8a.joehill@sympatico.ca> <20031203082437.E877@algate.perlwolf.com> <20031203074608.2c2b1be1.joehill@sympatico.ca> <20031203091610.F877@algate.perlwolf.com> <20031203085917.05bc6da3.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <20031203110247.711160e4.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Wed, 3 Dec 2003 09:59:43 -0500 (EST) Robert Brockway wrote: > Software vulnerabilities are normally fixed by patches but I'll agree that > security overall is more a function of awareness. I think this sentence > mixes up too different concepts (specific security issues vs security > procedures and knowledge). Not at all. You are again assuming that "script-kiddies" gain somehow from the widespread "awareness" of vulnerabilities, an assumption to which I do not subscribe, mainly for lack of evidence. >From Security Focus: "A successful attacker requires three things: the opportunity to launch an attack, the capacity to successfully execute the attack, and the motivation to attack. An opportunity to launch an attack requires a vulnerable system and an access path to the system. The capability to successfully execute the attack requires knowledge of the vulnerability and the tools to exploit it. Proponents of the information dictatorship argument are targeting the second requirement of a successful attacker: his capability to launch an attack. This approach to the problem of computer security is flawed, and can only fail. First, we cannot stop some small number of malicious users from gaining knowledge of vulnerabilities, or access to the tools that exploit them. Vulnerability information and exploits have legitimate uses with the computer security field. They are part of research, are required in penetration testing, and used by system administrator to test their systems, mitigate the risks by gaining an in-depth understanding of the problem, and to verify that vendor fixes work as advertised." Link: http://www.securityfocus.com/news/270 -- JoeHill ++ ICQ # 280779813 Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "The more laws and order are made prominent, the more thieves and robbers there will be."-- Lao Tsu -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From sidney-3Kd7Tu4o6f/sBN0MCq728g at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 3 16:24:33 2003 From: sidney-3Kd7Tu4o6f/sBN0MCq728g at public.gmane.org (Sidney Shapiro) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 11:24:33 -0500 Subject: MisterHouse / x10 /home automation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <002901c3b9b9$f3e22bc0$329e9c18@main> I have a ton of x10 stuff, its total crap. Sid > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org [mailto:owner-tlug at ss.org] On Behalf Of Mailing > List > Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2003 10:11 AM > To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > Subject: [TLUG]: MisterHouse / x10 /home automation > > Has anyone used x10 or home automation in > their house? Where is a good place to > shop for x10 stuff? Any recommendations? > > Robert > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lloyd-fEEwcc3XMu8jODpR/OX0VQ at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 3 16:31:35 2003 From: lloyd-fEEwcc3XMu8jODpR/OX0VQ at public.gmane.org (Lloyd D Budd) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 11:31:35 -0500 Subject: mdk: cooker individual software? In-Reply-To: <1069945889.2136.9.camel-33sJirT1wKzlb5+wx7kmt/BjuwtQqDz/bwi28uEu5RN+FfftCXEu2Q@public.gmane.org> References: <1069894240.2479.25.camel@localhost> <1069945889.2136.9.camel@gamma373-365.portable.resnet.yorku.ca> Message-ID: <1070469095.2174.627.camel@localhost> On Thu, 2003-11-27 at 10:11, Austin wrote: > 4. Check rogue RPM sites like Texstar's (www.pclinuxonline.com) Texstar "retired" (for now) some time ago. He has not made any 9.2 RPMs. > Thac's (http://rpm.nyvalls.se/). They rebuild new stuff for 9.2. Keep > in mind, if these eat your hard drive and spit it out at you, it's your > own fault. ;-) I discovered the following "rogue" RPMs: http://norlug.org/~chipster/?rpms -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From tlug-KfBRzk3UKwol8X4E99VVQg at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 3 17:32:39 2003 From: tlug-KfBRzk3UKwol8X4E99VVQg at public.gmane.org (Mailing List) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 12:32:39 -0500 Subject: MisterHouse / x10 /home automation Message-ID: Hi Sidney, Could you be a little more specific. Anything in particular you don't like? Robert --- Sidney Shapiro wrote: > I have a ton of x10 stuff, its total crap. > > Sid > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lloyd-fEEwcc3XMu8jODpR/OX0VQ at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 3 18:04:38 2003 From: lloyd-fEEwcc3XMu8jODpR/OX0VQ at public.gmane.org (Lloyd D Budd) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 13:04:38 -0500 Subject: video plugin for mozilla on linux In-Reply-To: <20030916002207.GA4889-33sJirT1wKwp8wJkwDEKW/BjuwtQqDz/bwi28uEu5RN+FfftCXEu2Q@public.gmane.org> References: <3F6670D9.4030708@rogers.com> <20030915233207.GC9009@gamma373-002.portable.resnet.yorku.ca> <20030915234326.22145a1b.joehill@sympatico.ca> <20030916002207.GA4889@gamma373-002.portable.resnet.yorku.ca> Message-ID: <1070474678.2130.70.camel@localhost> On Mon, 2003-09-15 at 20:22, Austin wrote: > On 09/15/2003 11:43:26 PM, JoeHill wrote: > > also, IIRC, there are Mozilla mplayer plugins availabe the same way, as > > well as flash, java, and realplayer. > > Not exactly. Mandrake Linux does not include any commercial software. But > while ethics are all good and nice, there are ways to get the other you > mentioned using urpmi. All java-related stuff is available at jpackage.org. > Flash and realplayer are a different story. Best to just install them > manually, but there are RPMs available for Mandrake Club members (not free). I want to install real player and flash plug-ins on Mandrake 9.2. First I am trying to get flash to work, but after installation I receive: LoadPlugin: failed to initialize shared library /usr/lib/mozilla-1.5/plugins/libflashplayer.so [libstdc++-libc6.2-2.so.3: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory] I cannot seem to find a libstdc++ with this version of libc for mdk 9.2 , or a previous version of flash. ? Even better would be a mdk 9.2 RPM for flash. ? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From tim-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 3 18:24:33 2003 From: tim-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Tim Writer) Date: 03 Dec 2003 13:24:33 -0500 Subject: SMC Cable/DSL 4port router In-Reply-To: <3FCD1BF4.1040306-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <3FCBF640.9040400@rogers.com> <3FCD1BF4.1040306@rogers.com> Message-ID: James Knott writes: > Tim Writer wrote: > > James Knott writes: > > > > >>Terry Tanski wrote: > >> > >>>Hi all, > >>> Anyone have any comments on the SMC Cable/DSL 4port router (SMC7004VBR)? > >>> How does it compare to the DLINK (604) or the LinkSys (SR41)? Does it have > > >>>half-decent firewall capabilities? > >> > >>>Terry > >> > >>I have the wireless version of that. It seems to be OK. What capabilities > >>were you looking for? > > Well, I worked on the wireless version for a while and was not at all > > > impressed. The firewalling capabilities are only applicable to the Internet > > connection, i.e. you cannot firewall your wireless LAN from your traditional > > LAN. You can use MAC based ACLs to prevent wireless users from going out to > > the Internet but you can't stop them from accessing your wired LAN. You can > > also restrict wireless traffic but you can't implement a deny by default > > policy, i.e. you cannot deny everything except the few services you want to > > allow, you can only deny specific services. > > The bottom line: as long as you're not using wireless and you're using NAT, > > > it will give you a basic level of protection simply due to the use of private > > IPs with NAT. IOW, it's okay for a simple home setting but I wouldn't use it > > in a business setting. > > > > > I've got mine between my Linux firewall and cable modem. This way, the only > way into my home network, is via CIPE VPN or SSH. Yes, that's how I've configured it too. It just bothers me that a product labeled "firewall" has such limited firewalling capabilities. And if you've got a Linux firewall, it's not too hard to throw in a wireless card and do it "properly". -- tim writer starnix inc. 905.771.0017 ext. 225 thornhill, ontario, canada http://www.starnix.com professional linux services & products -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jmm-TU2q2He6PgRlD5gtYiU6kEEOCMrvLtNR at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 3 19:42:32 2003 From: jmm-TU2q2He6PgRlD5gtYiU6kEEOCMrvLtNR at public.gmane.org (John Macdonald) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 14:42:32 -0500 Subject: Debian attacker may have used new exploit In-Reply-To: <20031203085917.05bc6da3.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <20031203002229.4052310b.rufmetal@eol.ca> <20031203052256.1fd67e8a.joehill@sympatico.ca> <20031203082437.E877@algate.perlwolf.com> <20031203074608.2c2b1be1.joehill@sympatico.ca> <20031203091610.F877@algate.perlwolf.com> <20031203085917.05bc6da3.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <20031203144232.A4490@algate.perlwolf.com> On Wed, Dec 03, 2003 at 08:59:17AM -0500, JoeHill wrote: > On Wed, 3 Dec 2003 09:16:11 -0500 > John Macdonald wrote: > > > Immediate public disclosure does not provide more eyes > > for a bug in MS code, just more eyes in the cracker > > community. > > That is a myth, propagated by MS and other proprietary vendors, to avoid > embarassment and having to do actual work to improve security. Immediate public disclosure of an MS bug provides zero additional eyes for fixing it. Guaranteed. Possibly, it might provide zero additional cracker eyes, but perhaps it might not. The best possibility there is for immediate disclosure to break even, more likely it loses. Let's toss coins for a while - heads you pay me $50, tails we call it a draw. Hey, you might not lose. > Witness the recent case of Diebold and their voting machines. If it were not for > the work of students and activists at Swarthmore College, no one would ever have > known of the security flaws. Diebold certainly showed no interest in fixing the > problem, even though internal memos showed they were aware of those flaws. It > was only after said students published the internal memos online that enough > pressure is being brought to bear on Diebold to fix the vulnerabilities. Now > what software were those machines running agian...? Oh, that's right, MS. That's not affected by this argument. Delayed public disclosure, to give them a chance to fix the problem, followed by automatic public disclosure a suitable time afterward will show up the cases that are showing no interest. In fact, it makes it far more obvious - they had a chance to fix the problem and just ignored it hoping no-one would ever notice. Immediate public disclosure denies them any opportunity to show the proper level of concern. > > Telling MS of a bug, and then telling the world later > > of the bug (and that MS was told a month earlier > > so that people can judge whether their response was > > adequate) provide more than ample pressure, and may > > reduce the number of exploits carried out against > > victims who have never had any warning or chance to > > apply a fix because there wasn't one. If MS responds > > prompty (which they are doing better at these days - > > they've learned that they have to), then when the > > public announcement goes out any attacks prompted by > > the announcement can only be applied against people > > who have not yet applied the fix. > > Again, facts and reality fly in the face of this argument. Hackers are usually, > if not always, aware of these vulnerabilities before the security > "establishment", and certainly before software designers can come up with a > patch. Full public disclosure is one way to give the vast majority of users a > head start, before a patch can even be issued, so that they can at least be > aware of the risk. In fact, following this logic, it could be proposed that > disclosure be even *more* widespread, as soon and as widely as possible. > Security issues are not solved by a patch, they are mitigated by awareness. Some crackers might already know of the problem, but that is not affected by either choice (delay or immediate publication). The issue is whether disclosure will cause any more crackers to learn of (it's not likely to make any of the ones that already know of it to forget, so we're back to at best breaking even and anything other than the best possibility is losing). > Finally, there is no way to develop an enforceable "policy" in this regard, so > it is not realistic to expect that, even if you assume this "myth" is true, > people will not go on publicly releasing info on exploits. It's more realistic > to find a way to deal with the *expectation* that the exploits are already > widely known, and to work from there. You're choosing between throwing out the baby with the bathwater or never bathing the baby. Automatic public disclosure is a good thing. Immediate public disclosure before a fix is available is sometimes no worse than delayed but could easily be worse. It is never better. > If you read the full account of the Debian incident, you will see that that is > exactly what happened, and exactly the attitude that was taken. Nothing radical > here! In fact, if you do a quick google on this topic, you will find that > nothing I'm saying is particularly original, this is the opinion of much bigger > fish than you or I. I read it. It appeared after they had a fix for the kernel and even so, it does not provide specific details of the mechanism used, not the binary of the program used. That is in no way "public disclosure in advance of informing the affected parties". It fits my model of appropriate behaviour perfectly well and provides no reason to choose your model instead. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From aacton-B71PBEe7S7Y at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 3 19:10:47 2003 From: aacton-B71PBEe7S7Y at public.gmane.org (Austin) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 14:10:47 -0500 Subject: video plugin for mozilla on linux In-Reply-To: <1070474678.2130.70.camel-bi+AKbBUZKZeoWH0uzbU5w@public.gmane.org>; from lloyd-fEEwcc3XMu8jODpR/OX0VQ@public.gmane.org on Wed, Dec 03, 2003 at 13:04:38 -0500 References: <3F6670D9.4030708@rogers.com> <20030915233207.GC9009@gamma373-002.portable.resnet.yorku.ca> <20030915234326.22145a1b.joehill@sympatico.ca> <20030916002207.GA4889@gamma373-002.portable.resnet.yorku.ca> <1070474678.2130.70.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <20031203191047.GA2621@groundstate.chem.yorku.ca> On 12/03/2003 01:04:38 PM, Lloyd D Budd wrote: > I want to install real player and flash plug-ins on Mandrake 9.2. > First I am trying to get flash to work, but after installation I > receive: > > LoadPlugin: failed to initialize shared library > /usr/lib/mozilla-1.5/plugins/libflashplayer.so > [libstdc++-libc6.2-2.so.3: cannot open shared object file: No such > file or directory] # urpmi libstdc++2.10 BTW, the rpm is non-free software so it's only available on the PowerPack CD's and on the club website. Austin -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lloyd-fEEwcc3XMu8jODpR/OX0VQ at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 3 19:23:42 2003 From: lloyd-fEEwcc3XMu8jODpR/OX0VQ at public.gmane.org (Lloyd D Budd) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 14:23:42 -0500 Subject: video plugin for mozilla on linux In-Reply-To: <20031203191047.GA2621-248nrIFxrsEvhQDQrEiaqAi/Dn5oqdb4930Pai70D+E@public.gmane.org> References: <3F6670D9.4030708@rogers.com> <20030915233207.GC9009@gamma373-002.portable.resnet.yorku.ca> <20030915234326.22145a1b.joehill@sympatico.ca> <20030916002207.GA4889@gamma373-002.portable.resnet.yorku.ca> <1070474678.2130.70.camel@localhost> <20031203191047.GA2621@groundstate.chem.yorku.ca> Message-ID: <1070479422.2132.325.camel@localhost> On Wed, 2003-12-03 at 14:10, Austin wrote: > On 12/03/2003 01:04:38 PM, Lloyd D Budd wrote: > > I want to install real player and flash plug-ins on Mandrake 9.2. > > First I am trying to get flash to work, but after installation I > > receive: > > > > LoadPlugin: failed to initialize shared library > > /usr/lib/mozilla-1.5/plugins/libflashplayer.so > > [libstdc++-libc6.2-2.so.3: cannot open shared object file: No such > > file or directory] > > # urpmi libstdc++2.10 > > BTW, the rpm is non-free software so it's only available on the > PowerPack CD's and on the club website. Thanks! http://mandrake.redbox.cz/Mandrake/9.2/i586/Mandrake/RPMS/libstdc++2.10-2.96-0.83mdk.i586.rpm I was in disbelief based on the version # of the RPM: libstdc++5-3.3.1-2mdk vs libstdc++2.10-2.96-0.83mdk -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jmm-TU2q2He6PgRlD5gtYiU6kEEOCMrvLtNR at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 3 20:23:31 2003 From: jmm-TU2q2He6PgRlD5gtYiU6kEEOCMrvLtNR at public.gmane.org (John Macdonald) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 15:23:31 -0500 Subject: Debian attacker may have used new exploit In-Reply-To: <20031203110247.711160e4.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <20031203002229.4052310b.rufmetal@eol.ca> <20031203052256.1fd67e8a.joehill@sympatico.ca> <20031203082437.E877@algate.perlwolf.com> <20031203074608.2c2b1be1.joehill@sympatico.ca> <20031203091610.F877@algate.perlwolf.com> <20031203085917.05bc6da3.joehill@sympatico.ca> <20031203110247.711160e4.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <20031203152331.C4490@algate.perlwolf.com> On Wed, Dec 03, 2003 at 11:02:47AM -0500, JoeHill wrote: > On Wed, 3 Dec 2003 09:59:43 -0500 (EST) > Robert Brockway wrote: > > > Software vulnerabilities are normally fixed by patches but I'll agree that > > security overall is more a function of awareness. I think this sentence > > mixes up too different concepts (specific security issues vs security > > procedures and knowledge). > > Not at all. You are again assuming that "script-kiddies" gain somehow from the > widespread "awareness" of vulnerabilities, an assumption to which I do not > subscribe, mainly for lack of evidence. Straw man. It doesn't matter whether script-kiddies learn about a hole, but whether they are fed with new exploit scripts. The exploit writers are the ones to worry about. If you can prove that exploit writers always know of vulnerabilities before any public disclosure; or else they always ignore any vulnerability that they learn of from a public disclosure, then you can argue that disclosure has not hurt. I think that you could not possibly prove those assertions, which means that you have to acknowledge that disclosure might possibly cause damage. > >From Security Focus: > > "A successful attacker requires three things: the opportunity to launch an > attack, the capacity to successfully execute the attack, and the motivation to > attack. An opportunity to launch an attack requires a vulnerable system and an > access path to the system. The capability to successfully execute the attack > requires knowledge of the vulnerability and the tools to exploit it. > > Proponents of the information dictatorship argument are targeting the second > requirement of a successful attacker: his capability to launch an attack. This > approach to the problem of computer security is flawed, and can only fail. You seem to think that there are only two choices: immediate public disclosure or long term secrecy. You give arguments that the first might not cause problems and that the second is bad. The middle ground; public disclosure after either a fix is available or significant time has elapsed; is not disproved by the "long term secrecy is bad" argument because it is not requiring or depending upon long term secrecy. It is not disproved by "immediate disclosure might not be bad" argument because immediate disclosure is not even going to be better and might be worse. > First, we cannot stop some small number of malicious users from gaining > knowledge of vulnerabilities, or access to the tools that exploit them. > Vulnerability information and exploits have legitimate uses with the computer > security field. They are part of research, are required in penetration testing, > and used by system administrator to test their systems, mitigate the risks by > gaining an in-depth understanding of the problem, and to verify that vendor > fixes work as advertised." Nope, we cannot stop them. But delayed disclosure will, in at least some cases, reduce the number of malicious users with such knowledge before a fix is available. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 3 20:23:44 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 15:23:44 -0500 Subject: Debian attacker may have used new exploit In-Reply-To: <20031203152331.C4490-TU2q2He6PgRlD5gtYiU6kEEOCMrvLtNR@public.gmane.org> References: <20031203002229.4052310b.rufmetal@eol.ca> <20031203052256.1fd67e8a.joehill@sympatico.ca> <20031203082437.E877@algate.perlwolf.com> <20031203074608.2c2b1be1.joehill@sympatico.ca> <20031203091610.F877@algate.perlwolf.com> <20031203085917.05bc6da3.joehill@sympatico.ca> <20031203110247.711160e4.joehill@sympatico.ca> <20031203152331.C4490@algate.perlwolf.com> Message-ID: <20031203152344.41a2aafb.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Wed, 3 Dec 2003 15:23:31 -0500 John Macdonald wrote: > Nope, we cannot stop them. But delayed disclosure > will, in at least some cases, reduce the number of > malicious users with such knowledge before a fix > is available. In both of your posts, you start from the assumption that immediate public disclosure contributes nothing, but that's all it is, an assumption. I am positing that putting any limits on the free exchange of this information is inherantly worse than any *potential* harm (never once demonstrated, only theorized) done by such disclosure. Straw men, babies, and bathwater, are all cute, but I have yet to see a strong argument, with evidence, that the free exchange of all security-related information, an important part of not only awareness and education, but also development of new tools to combat vulnerabilities (or the proper eradication of software which is unfixable, ie. Internet Exploder), somehow does more harm than good. There isn't even any evidence that having one "script-kiddie" releasing a worm or virus into the wild is somehow a better or less damaging situation than having two, or five. The point is there are *enough* that one or two more are not going to make one whit of difference. Constraining information, therefore, has no purpose, at least that can be quantified, whereas the uninhibited dialogue on security has enormous positive benefits. The current "regime", as it were, is not working. The internet is gradually sliding away from us into a spam and virus-ridden pit, and it is precisely because certain proprietary software vendors have been allowed to hide their flawed approach to software design, and blame everything on script-kiddies and other malcontents. Instead, we should be exposing these flaws as they become apparent, and if it means that "risk reduction" means using, say, Mozilla, instead of an inferior and insecure product like Internet Explorer, so be it. Extrapolate that analogy as you see fit ;-) -- JoeHill ++ ICQ # 280779813 Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ He who controls others may be powerful, but he who has mastered himself is mightier still.-- Lao Tsu -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 3 20:33:23 2003 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter L. Peres) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 22:33:23 +0200 (IST) Subject: Encrypted filesystems? In-Reply-To: <20031202220321.7B1EE4056-xzRQuAxiFLNWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org> References: <20031202185449.69743.qmail@web10303.mail.yahoo.com> <20031202220321.7B1EE4056@cbbrowne.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Dec 2003, cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org wrote: > I use CFS, which is fairly widely available in packaged form, which > "plays" as an NFS server. It's a bit slow, but it is pretty portable, > requiring no kernel mods, which strikes me as a win. What happened with rubberhose ? Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From teddymills-VFlxZYho3OA at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 3 20:54:34 2003 From: teddymills-VFlxZYho3OA at public.gmane.org (Teddy Mills) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 15:54:34 -0500 Subject: Smoothwall and running a server via a IPMASQ address Message-ID: <002301c3b9df$abf93f30$0301a8c0@amazon> Im going to try using a Smoothwall lbox as my firewall. Well I figure this is a more proper way of doing things, since iptables/firewall should be on a seperate box. My only thoughs are before I begin are: I only have 1 STATIC IP. Therefore the SmoothWall will use the Static IP. The server and its 1000 and 1 settings currently set for the STATIC interface, and all server services will have to be set to work through eth1 192.168.1.2 on my server. So all services will have to be forward and work through that 192.168.1.2 address. Most services 8,22,25,53,80,110,113,143 work through eth1 currently. Running a server via a IPMASQ address, Im sure is done all the time, but its giving me second thoughs on the SmoothWall install. This could get ugly. I could paint myself into a corner far worse just having iptables not working. --------------------------------------------------------------- teddy mills http://www.vger.ca VGER directives...To collect...all that is collectable. To sell...all that is saleable.To merchandise...all that is merchandisable. Family Guys, Quagmire "allllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll right" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jmm-TU2q2He6PgRlD5gtYiU6kEEOCMrvLtNR at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 3 22:35:15 2003 From: jmm-TU2q2He6PgRlD5gtYiU6kEEOCMrvLtNR at public.gmane.org (John Macdonald) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 17:35:15 -0500 Subject: Debian attacker may have used new exploit In-Reply-To: <20031203152344.41a2aafb.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <20031203002229.4052310b.rufmetal@eol.ca> <20031203052256.1fd67e8a.joehill@sympatico.ca> <20031203082437.E877@algate.perlwolf.com> <20031203074608.2c2b1be1.joehill@sympatico.ca> <20031203091610.F877@algate.perlwolf.com> <20031203085917.05bc6da3.joehill@sympatico.ca> <20031203110247.711160e4.joehill@sympatico.ca> <20031203152331.C4490@algate.perlwolf.com> <20031203152344.41a2aafb.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <20031203173515.D4490@algate.perlwolf.com> On Wed, Dec 03, 2003 at 03:23:44PM -0500, JoeHill wrote: > On Wed, 3 Dec 2003 15:23:31 -0500 > John Macdonald wrote: > > > Nope, we cannot stop them. But delayed disclosure > > will, in at least some cases, reduce the number of > > malicious users with such knowledge before a fix > > is available. > > In both of your posts, you start from the assumption that immediate public > disclosure contributes nothing, but that's all it is, an assumption. I am > positing that putting any limits on the free exchange of this information is > inherantly worse than any *potential* harm (never once demonstrated, only > theorized) done by such disclosure. Straw men, babies, and bathwater, are all > cute, but I have yet to see a strong argument, with evidence, that the free > exchange of all security-related information, an important part of not only > awareness and education, but also development of new tools to combat > vulnerabilities (or the proper eradication of software which is unfixable, ie. > Internet Exploder), somehow does more harm than good. If both sides of an argument take the approach that "if it is not proven otherwise, my belief should prevail" then you never come to a useful resolution. Far from proving that immediate disclosure has an advantage over delayed disclosure, you haven't even suggested any way in which it *might* have an advantage. All of your arguments apply only to the comparison against non-disclosure; which no-one is trying to claim as a good practice. That is a straw man - you put a false argument into the mouths of your opponent so that you can knock it down. It does not accomplish any useful progress in the discussion. It is quite obvious that immediate disclosure will sometimes (not always but sometimes) cause damage that delayed disclosure would ameliorate. This will happen when: - no cracker happened to already know about the particular hole being disclosed - only one cracker already knew about the hole, but he was saving it to use for a particular attack - every cracker that knew about this hole had other things to do and wasn't developing an exploit yet, but the disclosure made the potential damage time limited and so it was worth switching to exploiting this hole at this time instead of other work Try and prove that none of these could ever happen! (But don't just prove that they will sometimes not happen - I already admit that, but that is irrelevant. You are arguing that immediate disclosure should be done for every case.) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From wmcgilvery-6d3DWWOeJtE at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 3 21:36:18 2003 From: wmcgilvery-6d3DWWOeJtE at public.gmane.org (Wil McGilvery) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 16:36:18 -0500 Subject: Smoothwall and running a server via a IPMASQ address Message-ID: <65B7B304AA3DE147BBD33938FE204E284A952A@lynchmail.lynch.msft> Please clarify your setup. Regards, Wil McGilvery Manager Lynch Digital Media Inc 416-744-7949 416-716-3964 (cell) 1-866-314-4678 416-744-0406? FAX www.LynchDigital.com -----Original Message----- From: Teddy Mills [mailto:teddymills-VFlxZYho3OA at public.gmane.org] Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2003 3:55 PM To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Subject: [TLUG]: Smoothwall and running a server via a IPMASQ address Im going to try using a Smoothwall lbox as my firewall. Well I figure this is a more proper way of doing things, since iptables/firewall should be on a seperate box. My only thoughs are before I begin are: I only have 1 STATIC IP. Therefore the SmoothWall will use the Static IP. The server and its 1000 and 1 settings currently set for the STATIC interface, and all server services will have to be set to work through eth1 192.168.1.2 on my server. So all services will have to be forward and work through that 192.168.1.2 address. Most services 8,22,25,53,80,110,113,143 work through eth1 currently. Running a server via a IPMASQ address, Im sure is done all the time, but its giving me second thoughs on the SmoothWall install. This could get ugly. I could paint myself into a corner far worse just having iptables not working. --------------------------------------------------------------- teddy mills http://www.vger.ca VGER directives...To collect...all that is collectable. To sell...all that is saleable.To merchandise...all that is merchandisable. Family Guys, Quagmire "allllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll right" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 3 22:11:38 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 17:11:38 -0500 Subject: Debian attacker may have used new exploit In-Reply-To: <20031203173515.D4490-TU2q2He6PgRlD5gtYiU6kEEOCMrvLtNR@public.gmane.org> References: <20031203002229.4052310b.rufmetal@eol.ca> <20031203052256.1fd67e8a.joehill@sympatico.ca> <20031203082437.E877@algate.perlwolf.com> <20031203074608.2c2b1be1.joehill@sympatico.ca> <20031203091610.F877@algate.perlwolf.com> <20031203085917.05bc6da3.joehill@sympatico.ca> <20031203110247.711160e4.joehill@sympatico.ca> <20031203152331.C4490@algate.perlwolf.com> <20031203152344.41a2aafb.joehill@sympatico.ca> <20031203173515.D4490@algate.perlwolf.com> Message-ID: <20031203171138.0819bdba.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Wed, 3 Dec 2003 17:35:15 -0500 John Macdonald wrote: > Far from proving that immediate disclosure has an > advantage over delayed disclosure, you haven't > even suggested any way in which it *might* have > an advantage. Read my post again, and the link to the Security Focus article, you will find I have in fact done so, only you have chosen to ignore it. > All of your arguments apply only to the comparison > against non-disclosure; which no-one is trying to > claim as a good practice. That is a straw man - > you put a false argument into the mouths of your > opponent so that you can knock it down. It does not > accomplish any useful progress in the discussion. I nowhere engaged in such a practice, I argued against *any* limits being placed on the free exchange of information, for reasons I have already stated, and have provided references for. Not once did I claim or assume that the "other side" of the argument was no disclosure at all. As Robert suggested would happen, this *is* getting repetitive, and now you are accusing me of something you seem to be doing yourself. So, to end the thread, placing limits on the free exchange of any information, whether it is for some limited time or perceived good, is the kind of slippery slope that leads to a regime **Hitler** would have loved ;-) -- JoeHill ++ ICQ # 280779813 Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "You tell me it's the institution; Well you know, you better free your mind instead..."-- John Lennon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 3 22:39:22 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 17:39:22 -0500 Subject: video plugin for mozilla on linux In-Reply-To: <20031203191047.GA2621-248nrIFxrsEvhQDQrEiaqAi/Dn5oqdb4930Pai70D+E@public.gmane.org> References: <3F6670D9.4030708@rogers.com> <20030915233207.GC9009@gamma373-002.portable.resnet.yorku.ca> <20030915234326.22145a1b.joehill@sympatico.ca> <20030916002207.GA4889@gamma373-002.portable.resnet.yorku.ca> <1070474678.2130.70.camel@localhost> <20031203191047.GA2621@groundstate.chem.yorku.ca> Message-ID: <20031203173922.177dfa77.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Wed, 3 Dec 2003 14:10:47 -0500 Austin wrote: > > I want to install real player and flash plug-ins on Mandrake 9.2. > > First I am trying to get flash to work, but after installation I > > receive: > > > > LoadPlugin: failed to initialize shared library > > /usr/lib/mozilla-1.5/plugins/libflashplayer.so > > [libstdc++-libc6.2-2.so.3: cannot open shared object file: No such > > file or directory] > > # urpmi libstdc++2.10 > > BTW, the rpm is non-free software so it's only available on the > PowerPack CD's and on the club website. Strange, this wasn't the case on 9.1. I had Texstar's Mozilla Flash plugin workin' fine, and I certainly have no club membership...yet ;-) Now I'm stuck in the same situation as Lloyd. -- JoeHill ++ ICQ # 280779813 Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "The US is our trading partner, our neighbour, our ally and our friend... and sometimes we'd like to give them such a smack!"-- Rick Mercer -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From MichaelGalea-4VtgCsEi+FIybS5Ee8rs3A at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 3 22:52:41 2003 From: MichaelGalea-4VtgCsEi+FIybS5Ee8rs3A at public.gmane.org (Michael Galea) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 17:52:41 -0500 Subject: MisterHouse / x10 /home automation Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Mailing List [mailto:tlug-KfBRzk3UKwol8X4E99VVQg at public.gmane.org] > Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2003 10:11 AM > To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > Subject: [TLUG]: MisterHouse / x10 /home automation > > > Has anyone used x10 or home automation in > their house? Where is a good place to > shop for x10 stuff? Any recommendations? > > Robert > -- I use it to turn a fan on in my attack, and it has worked reliably for three seasons now. I used an x10 motion sensor to turn on a lamp in my hall at night so my kids wouldn't go bouncing into things on the way to the loo.. Somewhere in my neighborhood, someone else started to experiment with x10 and turned my tv set on a few times (select an original house/device code and you can get around that..) All that having been said, the technology has no capability for error detection and retransmission and I never considered it reliable, or used it for anything I really needed to depend upon. The fact that you can't pull data with it, just push doesn't help either.. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 3 23:01:57 2003 From: davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (David J Patrick) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 18:01:57 -0500 Subject: OT; become a master baiter ! Message-ID: <3FCE6B65.3050605@sympatico.ca> OK, this is OT, but it's so much fun I had to share; What's the best way to deal with email scam "artists" ? junk filter ? report to the proper authorities ? NO ! Join the ranks of scam-baiters for fun and .. er.. FUN ! Pose as a Mugu (victim) and watch 'em dance ! While you're pulling their chain, you are distracting them from conning someone more gullible. If the sport of scam-baiting become real popular, the perps will eventually have to find another way to rip people off. Find out how at http://www.419eater.com/index.htm or http://www.scamorama.com/ I have been following a few of the adventures and haven't laughed this hard in a while ! happy hunting ! djp -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lloyd-fEEwcc3XMu8jODpR/OX0VQ at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 3 23:11:10 2003 From: lloyd-fEEwcc3XMu8jODpR/OX0VQ at public.gmane.org (Lloyd D Budd) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 18:11:10 -0500 Subject: mdk kernel enterprise src? Message-ID: <1070493070.2130.414.camel@localhost> mdk-9.2 I am trying to get a closed source (VPN client) kernel extension working. I would like to use kernel-enterprise-2.4.22.21mdk-1-1mdk, but I need the source. I see there is kernel-2.4.22.21mdk-1-1mdk.src.rpm (39303204) kernel-source-2.4.22-21mdk.i586.rpm (42200593) I wonder about the size difference :-( urpi only finds the 2nd. I tried that one, but symbols unresolved. http://rpms.mandrakeclub.com/search.php?query=kernel-2.4.22.21mdk lists the 1st, but attempting to install it, but it does not: rpm -i kernel-2.4.22.21mdk-1-1mdk.src.rpm -vv D: ============== kernel-2.4.22.21mdk-1-1mdk.src.rpm D: Expected size: 39303204 = lead(96)+sigs(264)+pad(0)+data(39302844) D: Actual size: 39303204 D: unshared posix mutexes found(38), adding DB_PRIVATE, using fcntl lock D: opening db environment /var/lib/rpm/Packages create:cdb:mpool:private D: opening db index /var/lib/rpm/Packages rdonly mode=0x0 D: locked db index /var/lib/rpm/Packages D: opening db index /var/lib/rpm/Pubkeys rdonly mode=0x0 D: read h# 342 Header sanity check: OK D: ========== DSA pubkey id 9aa8d0d022458a98 D: kernel-2.4.22.21mdk-1-1mdk.src.rpm: V3 DSA signature: OK, key ID 22458a98 D: added source package [0] D: found 1 source and 0 binary packages D: Expected size: 39303204 = lead(96)+sigs(264)+pad(0)+data(39302844) D: Actual size: 39303204 warning: user qateam does not exist - using root warning: group qateam does not exist - using root warning: user qateam does not exist - using root warning: group qateam does not exist - using root warning: user qateam does not exist - using root warning: group qateam does not exist - using root warning: user qateam does not exist - using root warning: group qateam does not exist - using root warning: user qateam does not exist - using root warning: group qateam does not exist - using root warning: user qateam does not exist - using root warning: group qateam does not exist - using root warning: user qateam does not exist - using root warning: group qateam does not exist - using root warning: user qateam does not exist - using root warning: group qateam does not exist - using root kernel-2.4.22.21mdk-1-1mdk D: ========== Directories not explictly included in package: D: 0 /usr/src/RPM/SOURCES/ D: 1 /usr/src/RPM/SPECS/ D: ========== D: fini 100644 1 ( 0, 0) 1324 /usr/src/RPM/SOURCES/README.Mandrake;3fce6c45 D: fini 100644 1 ( 0, 0) 2948 /usr/src/RPM/SOURCES/README.kernel-sources;3fce6c45 D: fini 100644 1 ( 0, 0) 137112 /usr/src/RPM/SPECS/kernel-2.4.spec;3fce6c45 D: fini 100644 1 ( 0, 0) 9651394 /usr/src/RPM/SOURCES/linux-2.4.22-q21.tar.bz2;3fce6c45 D: fini 100644 1 ( 0, 0) 29528612 /usr/src/RPM/SOURCES/linux-2.4.22.tar.bz2;3fce6c45 D: fini 100644 1 ( 0, 0) 3403 /usr/src/RPM/SOURCES/linux-mdkconfig.h;3fce6c45 D: fini 100644 1 ( 0, 0) 7767 /usr/src/RPM/SOURCES/linux-merge-config.awk;3fce6c45 D: fini 100644 1 ( 0, 0) 3081 /usr/src/RPM/SOURCES/linux-merge-modules.awk;3fce6c45 GZDIO: 4802 reads, 39336828 total bytes in 2.004 secs D: closed db index /var/lib/rpm/Pubkeys D: closed db index /var/lib/rpm/Packages D: closed db environment /var/lib/rpm/Packages Am I barking up the wrong tree? Cheers, Lloyd -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 3 23:50:15 2003 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 18:50:15 -0500 Subject: Multiple USB keyboards ? Message-ID: <20031203235015.GA6472@node1.opengeometry.net> I have multiple video cards (agp, pci) and multiple mouses (serial, ps/2, usb) working independently. That is, I can choose which should be selected when bringing up X. But, multiple keyboards are all shared; so, you can press keys from any keyboard. How do you get them working independently? -- William Park, Open Geometry Consulting, Linux solution for data management and processing. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From aacton-B71PBEe7S7Y at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 3 23:55:22 2003 From: aacton-B71PBEe7S7Y at public.gmane.org (Austin) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 18:55:22 -0500 Subject: mdk kernel enterprise src? In-Reply-To: <1070493070.2130.414.camel-bi+AKbBUZKZeoWH0uzbU5w@public.gmane.org> References: <1070493070.2130.414.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <1070495720.2931.5.camel@gamma373-365.portable.resnet.yorku.ca> On Wed, 2003-12-03 at 18:11, Lloyd D Budd wrote: > I see there is > kernel-2.4.22.21mdk-1-1mdk.src.rpm (39303204) > kernel-source-2.4.22-21mdk.i586.rpm (42200593) > > I wonder about the size difference :-( You realize that these are not the same thing, right? kernel.src.rpm is the RPM source; it's used by RPM makers to make RPMs (compilation instructions, etc.) kernel-source.i586.rpm is a package containing the kernel source code itself (installs to /usr/src/linux) It looks like the one you downloaded is corrupt maybe? Try kernel-source from http://mandrake.redbox.cz/Mandrake/updates/9.2/RPMS/ Austin -- Austin Acton Synthetic Organic Chemist, Teaching Assistant, Ph.D. Candidate Department of Chemistry, York University, Toronto MandrakeLinux Volunteer Developer, homepage: www.groundstate.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lloyd-fEEwcc3XMu8jODpR/OX0VQ at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 4 00:17:44 2003 From: lloyd-fEEwcc3XMu8jODpR/OX0VQ at public.gmane.org (Lloyd D Budd) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 19:17:44 -0500 Subject: mdk kernel enterprise src? In-Reply-To: <1070495720.2931.5.camel-33sJirT1wKzlb5+wx7kmt/BjuwtQqDz/bwi28uEu5RN+FfftCXEu2Q@public.gmane.org> References: <1070493070.2130.414.camel@localhost> <1070495720.2931.5.camel@gamma373-365.portable.resnet.yorku.ca> Message-ID: <1070497064.2131.437.camel@localhost> On Wed, 2003-12-03 at 18:55, Austin wrote: > On Wed, 2003-12-03 at 18:11, Lloyd D Budd wrote: > > I see there is > > kernel-2.4.22.21mdk-1-1mdk.src.rpm (39303204) > > kernel-source-2.4.22-21mdk.i586.rpm (42200593) > > > > I wonder about the size difference :-( > > You realize that these are not the same thing, right? Having never made an RPM, I had thought I had... I had thought that kernel.src.rpm would have about the same contents as kernel-source.rpm . I had thought that src.rpm might possibly be a little larger, but not the other way around... Still I should be able to install kernel-2.4.22.21mdk-1-1mdk.src.rpm ? ...err, now I think I understand... the source files end up in /usr/src/RPM/SOURCES , no entry is made in rpm db , and from here I could extract the kernel source tar files or what ever I want to... -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From aacton-B71PBEe7S7Y at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 4 00:50:39 2003 From: aacton-B71PBEe7S7Y at public.gmane.org (Austin) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 19:50:39 -0500 Subject: mdk kernel enterprise src? In-Reply-To: <1070497064.2131.437.camel-bi+AKbBUZKZeoWH0uzbU5w@public.gmane.org> References: <1070493070.2130.414.camel@localhost> <1070495720.2931.5.camel@gamma373-365.portable.resnet.yorku.ca> <1070497064.2131.437.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <1070499036.3013.2.camel@gamma373-365.portable.resnet.yorku.ca> On Wed, 2003-12-03 at 19:17, Lloyd D Budd wrote: > ...err, now I think I understand... the source files end up in > /usr/src/RPM/SOURCES , no entry is made in rpm db , and from here I > could extract the kernel source tar files or what ever I want to... Umm, I guess so, but that's not what you want to do. That tarball will not contain any Mandrake-specific modifications. It is pristine. If you want kernel modules you build yourself to insert into the Mandrake kernel, you'll need to build them against the Mandrakized kernel source. Just install the kernel-source RPM and Bob's your uncle. It will drop into /usr/src/linux. Austin -- Austin Acton Synthetic Organic Chemist, Teaching Assistant, Ph.D. Candidate Department of Chemistry, York University, Toronto MandrakeLinux Volunteer Developer, homepage: www.groundstate.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 4 02:21:32 2003 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 21:21:32 -0500 Subject: SMC Cable/DSL 4port router In-Reply-To: References: <3FCBF640.9040400@rogers.com> <3FCD1BF4.1040306@rogers.com> Message-ID: <3FCE9A2C.2070201@rogers.com> Tim Writer wrote: > > Yes, that's how I've configured it too. It just bothers me that a product > labeled "firewall" has such limited firewalling capabilities. And if you've > got a Linux firewall, it's not too hard to throw in a wireless card and do it > "properly". > It does have firewall capabilities, which are fine if you're just connecting it to a high speed line and don't worry about wireless security. However, I'd have preferred to have a firwall on the wireless side. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jmm-TU2q2He6PgRlD5gtYiU6kEEOCMrvLtNR at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 4 04:07:31 2003 From: jmm-TU2q2He6PgRlD5gtYiU6kEEOCMrvLtNR at public.gmane.org (John Macdonald) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 23:07:31 -0500 Subject: Debian attacker may have used new exploit In-Reply-To: <20031203171138.0819bdba.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <20031203082437.E877@algate.perlwolf.com> <20031203074608.2c2b1be1.joehill@sympatico.ca> <20031203091610.F877@algate.perlwolf.com> <20031203085917.05bc6da3.joehill@sympatico.ca> <20031203110247.711160e4.joehill@sympatico.ca> <20031203152331.C4490@algate.perlwolf.com> <20031203152344.41a2aafb.joehill@sympatico.ca> <20031203173515.D4490@algate.perlwolf.com> <20031203171138.0819bdba.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <20031203230731.G877@algate.perlwolf.com> On Wed, Dec 03, 2003 at 05:11:38PM -0500, JoeHill wrote: > I nowhere engaged in such a practice, I argued against *any* limits being placed > on the free exchange of information, for reasons I have already stated, and > have provided references for. Not once did I claim or assume that the "other > side" of the argument was no disclosure at all. As Robert suggested would > happen, this *is* getting repetitive, and now you are accusing me of something > you seem to be doing yourself. > > So, to end the thread, placing limits on the free exchange of any information, > whether it is for some limited time or perceived good, is the kind of slippery > slope that leads to a regime **Hitler** would have loved ;-) You have argued against *any* limit. Until the "slippery slope" statment above, I have not seen any *justification* for such an argument that actually applied to delayed disclosure (a temporary limit for a deliberate purpose) rather than *only* to non-disclosure. A slippery slope argument is not particularly compelling unless you go on to show that there is difficulty in choosing any point in between the extremes and sticking to that point. As long as people *do* always come to the point where they disclose the problem, there is no slippery slope. Different people may have different amounts of leniency, but the end result is the same except for the exact timing. If you have any argument that justifies immediate disclosure over delayed disclosure, please state it. What penalty is there for making it possible to have a fix for a problem available before the general publication of the problem, as long as the publication will happen in a relatively short time frame? What benefit comes from not providing a window of time for fixing the problem before disclosure? But skip "non-disclosure is bad" arguments - they do not say anything against delayed disclosure. And skip "nobody has proved it is necessary" arguments - they at most say that immediate disclosure might not cause damage, but they do not state any advantage for immediate disclosure. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From legrady-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 4 03:22:01 2003 From: legrady-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Tom Legrady) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 22:22:01 -0500 Subject: Debian attacker may have used new exploit In-Reply-To: <20031203230731.G877-TU2q2He6PgRlD5gtYiU6kEEOCMrvLtNR@public.gmane.org> References: <20031203082437.E877@algate.perlwolf.com> <20031203074608.2c2b1be1.joehill@sympatico.ca> <20031203091610.F877@algate.perlwolf.com> <20031203085917.05bc6da3.joehill@sympatico.ca> <20031203110247.711160e4.joehill@sympatico.ca> <20031203152331.C4490@algate.perlwolf.com> <20031203152344.41a2aafb.joehill@sympatico.ca> <20031203173515.D4490@algate.perlwolf.com> <20031203171138.0819bdba.joehill@sympatico.ca> <20031203230731.G877@algate.perlwolf.com> Message-ID: <3FCEA859.6050900@rogers.com> When the thread gets around to Hitler, the horse is not only dead, but already boiled down for glue. Next topic, please. Tom >On Wed, Dec 03, 2003 at 05:11:38PM -0500, JoeHill wrote: > > >>So, to end the thread, placing limits on the free exchange of any information, >>whether it is for some limited time or perceived good, is the kind of slippery >>slope that leads to a regime **Hitler** would have loved ;-) >> >> -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 4 04:01:12 2003 From: colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 23:01:12 -0500 Subject: MisterHouse / x10 /home automation References: Message-ID: <014801c3ba1b$429ee9e0$4201a8c0@ym.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> I've played around with X10 and Misterhouse, but I have yet to get serious with it all. I own 2 lamp and 2 appliance modules (2 bought via mail order from X10, the other two I scored free from a former employer (they had planned to use X-10 in the computer room to remote reset hardware, but found X10 wasn't reliable enough, so the modules were unneeded/unwanted, and I got them)). As well I have a few X10 extra goodies like a serial to power line adapter (lets you send X10 turn on/off commands from almost anything that can do RS-232). As Michael Galea notes X10 is not good for anything that is critical, I have an X10 controlled electric fireplace insert and maybe once a month I get up in the morning to find the insert turned on (something that I attribute to RF/power line spikes/interference)). In other words I don't consider X10 to be reliable enough for much more than controlling some lights and/or some light duty appliances (ie: stuff that would be a bother, but not a disaster if it were suddenly turned on (or off) without warning at say 3:06 AM). As for the Misterhouse software, that looks VERY cool, a bunch of PERL scripts to run you house (which also means the scripts will run on also sorts of platforms, Linux, FreeBSD, Mac, and those Microsoft "operating systems"). Touches that appeal to me are the in-house robot DJ (that can do things like let you know about new e-mail (with speech synthesis software) between songs, tell you the time, etc...). "Michael Galea" on Wednesday, December 03, 2003 5:52 PM wrote: > -----Original Message----- > From: Mailing List [mailto:tlug-KfBRzk3UKwol8X4E99VVQg at public.gmane.org] > Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2003 10:11 AM > To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > Subject: [TLUG]: MisterHouse / x10 /home automation > > > Has anyone used x10 or home automation in > their house? Where is a good place to > shop for x10 stuff? Any recommendations? > > Robert > -- I use it to turn a fan on in my attack, and it has worked reliably for three seasons now. I used an x10 motion sensor to turn on a lamp in my hall at night so my kids wouldn't go bouncing into things on the way to the loo.. Somewhere in my neighborhood, someone else started to experiment with x10 and turned my tv set on a few times (select an original house/device code and you can get around that..) All that having been said, the technology has no capability for error detection and retransmission and I never considered it reliable, or used it for anything I really needed to depend upon. The fact that you can't pull data with it, just push doesn't help either.. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 4 03:55:43 2003 From: phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org (Peter Hiscocks) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 22:55:43 -0500 Subject: C considered harmful: was Debian attacker may have used new exploit In-Reply-To: <3FCEA859.6050900-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org>; from legrady-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org on Wed, Dec 03, 2003 at 10:22:01PM -0500 References: <20031203091610.F877@algate.perlwolf.com> <20031203085917.05bc6da3.joehill@sympatico.ca> <20031203110247.711160e4.joehill@sympatico.ca> <20031203152331.C4490@algate.perlwolf.com> <20031203152344.41a2aafb.joehill@sympatico.ca> <20031203173515.D4490@algate.perlwolf.com> <20031203171138.0819bdba.joehill@sympatico.ca> <20031203230731.G877@algate.perlwolf.com> <3FCEA859.6050900@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20031203225543.A2288@ee.ryerson.ca> OK, I hate to flog a dead horse but really: This exploit, like others against Unix machines many years ago, was based on a buffer overflow dumping the user into supervisor space. This, in turn, is a direct result of the fact that the C programming language does not check or enforce limits on a string length or buffer size - that's left up to the individual programmer. Surely, given the importance of security, it should be possible to fix the C language (or my preference, use a different one) to do systems programming. After all, C is not so much a systems programming language as a high-level version of assembly language. Years ago, Philipe Khan of Borland said that 'C is a disease and the Americans are spreading it.' Maybe he had this kind of thing in mind. Peter (Incidentally, a former profs at Ryerson, Heather Hinton, was working on such a mechanism to prevent stack overflows. I guess it's never been widely adopted.) On Wed, Dec 03, 2003 at 10:22:01PM -0500, Tom Legrady wrote: > When the thread gets around to Hitler, the horse is not only dead, but > already boiled down for glue. > > Next topic, please. > > Tom > > >On Wed, Dec 03, 2003 at 05:11:38PM -0500, JoeHill wrote: > > > > > >>So, to end the thread, placing limits on the free exchange of any information, > >>whether it is for some limited time or perceived good, is the kind of slippery > >>slope that leads to a regime **Hitler** would have loved ;-) > >> > >> > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- Peter D. Hiscocks Department of Electrical and Computer Engineering Ryerson University, 350 Victoria Street, Toronto, Ontario, M5B 2K3, Canada Phone: (416) 979-5000 Ext 6109 Fax: (416) 979-5280 Email: phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org URL: http://www.ee.ryerson.ca/~phiscock -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 4 04:30:28 2003 From: henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org (Henry Spencer) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 23:30:28 -0500 (EST) Subject: C considered harmful: was Debian attacker may have used new exploit In-Reply-To: <20031203225543.A2288-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w@public.gmane.org> References: <20031203225543.A2288@ee.ryerson.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Dec 2003, Peter Hiscocks wrote: > This exploit, like others against Unix machines many years ago, was based on > a buffer overflow dumping the user into supervisor space. Actually, no, as I understand it (with the caveat that I haven't really gone investigating), this one is *not* a buffer overflow, exactly. It's the result of *integer* overflow in (essentially) a buffer-overflow check. A language with automatic buffer-overflow checks could easily have the same vulnerability, if the implementor wasn't careful. > This, in turn, is > a direct result of the fact that the C programming language does not check > or enforce limits on a string length or buffer size - that's left up to the > individual programmer. As has often been said, C gives you all the rope you need to hang yourself. > After all, C is not so much a systems programming language as a high-level > version of assembly language. Oddly enough, it has pushed most "real" systems programming languages out of the business. And this is *not* because of sharp marketing tactics or firm backing by a big organization or dot-com hype -- quite the contrary. It succeeded because people with work to do find it easier to get results in C than in "real" systems programming languages, and so it spread and prospered despite inept or nonexistent marketing, uncertain support, and a marked dearth of hype. It behooves people who aspire to design systems programming languages to *PAY* *ATTENTION* *DAMMIT*, rather than just casting aspersions on the intelligence and judgement of the customer. It is their own damn fault; their languages keep failing, and C keeps succeeding despite its nasty flaws, because they keep ignoring the needs of the real language users. People went with C because it did what they wanted, instead of telling them they shouldn't want that. > Years ago, Philipe Khan of Borland said that 'C is a disease and the > Americans are spreading it.' Maybe he had this kind of thing in mind. I don't think it is impossible to keep C's virtues while eliminating its more grievous faults. But it will not be done by people who look down their long aristocratic noses at C, and scorn it as a peasant's language of no interest to them. Henry Spencer henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From marcus.brubaker-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 4 04:36:04 2003 From: marcus.brubaker-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Marcus Brubaker) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 23:36:04 -0500 Subject: C considered harmful: was Debian attacker may have used new exploit In-Reply-To: <20031203225543.A2288-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w@public.gmane.org> References: <20031203091610.F877@algate.perlwolf.com> <20031203085917.05bc6da3.joehill@sympatico.ca> <20031203110247.711160e4.joehill@sympatico.ca> <20031203152331.C4490@algate.perlwolf.com> <20031203152344.41a2aafb.joehill@sympatico.ca> <20031203173515.D4490@algate.perlwolf.com> <20031203171138.0819bdba.joehill@sympatico.ca> <20031203230731.G877@algate.perlwolf.com> <3FCEA859.6050900@rogers.com> <20031203225543.A2288@ee.ryerson.ca> Message-ID: <1070512563.8059.25.camel@rincewind.discworld> On Wed, 2003-12-03 at 22:55, Peter Hiscocks wrote: > OK, I hate to flog a dead horse but really: > Hmmmm, this is likely to start a looooong drawn out flame thread. Language arguments almost always do. So, with trying to prevent that in mind, I will avoid standing up for my general language of choice and instead offer an alternative. > This exploit, like others against Unix machines many years ago, was based on > a buffer overflow dumping the user into supervisor space. This, in turn, is > a direct result of the fact that the C programming language does not check > or enforce limits on a string length or buffer size - that's left up to the > individual programmer. > > Surely, given the importance of security, it should be possible to fix the C > language (or my preference, use a different one) to do systems programming. > After all, C is not so much a systems programming language as a high-level > version of assembly language. > "Fixing" C in the sense you're imagining will never happen and people often do use other languages for specific tasks. However, other languages are not immune to buffer overflows as most of them are actually written in C themselves. The better solution is things like stackguard[1] and execshield[2] which actually fix the root problem: the stack should NOT be executable and neither should most of the heap and likewise portions of memory which are actively executable shouldn't be writable from userspace. > (Incidentally, a former profs at Ryerson, Heather Hinton, was working on > such a mechanism to prevent stack overflows. I guess it's never been widely > adopted.) Hinton...any relation to Geoffrey Hinton? At any rate, many people have (and continue) to work on stack guards and similar solutions. See [1] and [2]. As with all security measures, its just a question of getting people to use them. -- Marcus Brubaker [1] http://www.immunix.org/stackguard.html [2] http://seclists.org/lists/linux-kernel/2003/May/0371.html and http://people.redhat.com/mingo/exec-shield/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From marcus.brubaker-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 4 06:01:16 2003 From: marcus.brubaker-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Marcus Brubaker) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 01:01:16 -0500 Subject: C considered harmful: was Debian attacker may have used new exploit In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1070517676.8059.42.camel@rincewind.discworld> On Wed, 2003-12-03 at 23:30, Henry Spencer wrote: > On Wed, 3 Dec 2003, Peter Hiscocks wrote: > > This exploit, like others against Unix machines many years ago, was based on > > a buffer overflow dumping the user into supervisor space. > > Actually, no, as I understand it (with the caveat that I haven't really > gone investigating), this one is *not* a buffer overflow, exactly. It's > the result of *integer* overflow in (essentially) a buffer-overflow check. > A language with automatic buffer-overflow checks could easily have the > same vulnerability, if the implementor wasn't careful. > Interesting, this is certainly a less common form of exploit... > > After all, C is not so much a systems programming language as a high-level > > version of assembly language. > > Oddly enough, it has pushed most "real" systems programming languages out > of the business. And this is *not* because of sharp marketing tactics or > firm backing by a big organization or dot-com hype -- quite the contrary. > It succeeded because people with work to do find it easier to get results > in C than in "real" systems programming languages, and so it spread and > prospered despite inept or nonexistent marketing, uncertain support, and a > marked dearth of hype. > > It behooves people who aspire to design systems programming languages to > *PAY* *ATTENTION* *DAMMIT*, rather than just casting aspersions on the > intelligence and judgement of the customer. It is their own damn fault; > their languages keep failing, and C keeps succeeding despite its nasty > flaws, because they keep ignoring the needs of the real language users. > People went with C because it did what they wanted, instead of telling > them they shouldn't want that. > Honestly, I don't think there will be a language to supplant C as a *systems* programming language in general any time soon. Frankly, systems programming too frequently requires breaking the rules that other languages commonly enforce. There have been a lot of great languages developed out there for specific tasks. Perl is gorgeous for text processing, as is python I've heard. BASH is fair for simple task automation, and tolerable for slightly more complicated tasks. Matlab is a GODSEND for anyone doing algorithm prototyping and other kinds of scientific computation. Java is worlds beyond C++ when it comes to OOP. Hell, even Prolog and the many species of LISP-type-languages are interesting in their own right (though not terribly useful in my mind). The point though is that for applications where you need the kind of flexibility (or rope...heh) that C offers, there has yet to be any good substitutes. But if you fit well into a specific category of application development then there is a whole host of better choices for you. For instance, next major GUI application I write will probably be in Java or maybe C++ with a good widget library (GTKmm). It just hurts too much to write GUI apps in C. > > Years ago, Philipe Khan of Borland said that 'C is a disease and the > > Americans are spreading it.' Maybe he had this kind of thing in mind. > > I don't think it is impossible to keep C's virtues while eliminating its > more grievous faults. But it will not be done by people who look down > their long aristocratic noses at C, and scorn it as a peasant's language > of no interest to them. One mans grievous fault is another mans shiningly useful feature. Language wise I think there is really only a few things that can/should be done to improve C. Largely they involve incorporating the more sensible improvements from C++ and dropping most of the cruft. I.E. compile-time operator overloading would be nice but templates are horrendous. Beyond that though I think C would benefit most from more code reuse. Why is it that everyone has their own C libraries to handle strings? Things like Glib need to be more widely used, because otherwise we're all just reinventing the wheel and reproducing the bugs. -- Marcus Brubaker -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 4 06:26:17 2003 From: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 01:26:17 -0500 (EST) Subject: Debian attacker may have used new exploit In-Reply-To: <20031203104724.41de22fd.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <20031203002229.4052310b.rufmetal@eol.ca> <20031203052256.1fd67e8a.joehill@sympatico.ca> <20031203082437.E877@algate.perlwolf.com> <20031203074608.2c2b1be1.joehill@sympatico.ca> <20031203091610.F877@algate.perlwolf.com> <20031203085917.05bc6da3.joehill@sympatico.ca> <20031203104724.41de22fd.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Dec 2003, JoeHill wrote: > Like to have the last word, eh? No, I just find repeating myself on mailing lists to be a waste of time. I found I so many better uses for the time. Ok, so I replied :) I'm gone now. Please feel free to have the last word, it won't bother me a bit. Rob -- Robert Brockway B.Sc. email: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org, zzbrock at uqconnect.net Linux counter project ID #16440 (http://counter.li.org) "The earth is but one country and mankind its citizens" -Baha'u'llah -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From tim-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 4 09:27:08 2003 From: tim-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Tim Writer) Date: 04 Dec 2003 04:27:08 -0500 Subject: C considered harmful: was Debian attacker may have used new exploit In-Reply-To: <1070517676.8059.42.camel-eTg7c9BlEq95hrpxxnI5yFifK/mc/01a@public.gmane.org> References: <1070517676.8059.42.camel@rincewind.discworld> Message-ID: Marcus Brubaker writes: > On Wed, 2003-12-03 at 23:30, Henry Spencer wrote: > > On Wed, 3 Dec 2003, Peter Hiscocks wrote: > Hell, even Prolog and the many species of LISP-type-languages are > interesting in their own right (though not terribly useful in my mind). LISP not useful? Sacrilege! I'm responding to this with Gnus, still arguably one of the best mail/news clients, running within Xemacs, still arguably one of the best programmers' editors (vi/emacs flame wars notwithstanding), written in a dialect of LISP. > But if you fit well into a specific category of application development > then there is a whole host of better choices for you. For instance, next > major GUI application I write will probably be in Java [....] You might find this article, by one of the LISP community's greats, both interesting and on topic: http://www.paulgraham.com/javacover.html -- tim writer starnix inc. 905.771.0017 ext. 225 thornhill, ontario, canada http://www.starnix.com professional linux services & products -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From tim-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 4 09:51:11 2003 From: tim-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Tim Writer) Date: 04 Dec 2003 04:51:11 -0500 Subject: C considered harmful: was Debian attacker may have used new exploit In-Reply-To: <1070512563.8059.25.camel-eTg7c9BlEq95hrpxxnI5yFifK/mc/01a@public.gmane.org> References: <20031203091610.F877@algate.perlwolf.com> <20031203085917.05bc6da3.joehill@sympatico.ca> <20031203110247.711160e4.joehill@sympatico.ca> <20031203152331.C4490@algate.perlwolf.com> <20031203152344.41a2aafb.joehill@sympatico.ca> <20031203173515.D4490@algate.perlwolf.com> <20031203171138.0819bdba.joehill@sympatico.ca> <20031203230731.G877@algate.perlwolf.com> <3FCEA859.6050900@rogers.com> <20031203225543.A2288@ee.ryerson.ca> <1070512563.8059.25.camel@rincewind.discworld> Message-ID: Marcus Brubaker writes: > On Wed, 2003-12-03 at 22:55, Peter Hiscocks wrote: > > OK, I hate to flog a dead horse but really: > > > > Hmmmm, this is likely to start a looooong drawn out flame thread. > Language arguments almost always do. So, with trying to prevent that in > mind, I will avoid standing up for my general language of choice and > instead offer an alternative. > > > This exploit, like others against Unix machines many years ago, was based on > > a buffer overflow dumping the user into supervisor space. This, in turn, is > > a direct result of the fact that the C programming language does not check > > or enforce limits on a string length or buffer size - that's left up to the > > individual programmer. > > > > Surely, given the importance of security, it should be possible to fix the C > > language (or my preference, use a different one) to do systems programming. > > After all, C is not so much a systems programming language as a high-level > > version of assembly language. > > > > "Fixing" C in the sense you're imagining will never happen and people > often do use other languages for specific tasks. However, other > languages are not immune to buffer overflows as most of them are > actually written in C themselves. Not immune but still resistant. Typical C programs are full of calls to "dangerous" functions like strcpy() and sprintf(), as well as direct pointer manipulations. While language interpreters are no different, their cores tend to be quite small compared with modern behemoths and are well tested both with comprehensive test suites, which accompany most decent languages, and via applications written in the language. The flip side of course is that a buffer overflow (or similar problem) in a language implementation has the potential to affect all applications deployed in that language, so the impact could be much more widespread than a buffer overflow in a given C application. > The better solution is things like stackguard[1] and execshield[2] which > actually fix the root problem: the stack should NOT be executable and > neither should most of the heap and likewise portions of memory which > are actively executable shouldn't be writable from userspace. Maybe. Some language environments rely on an executable stack to implement trampolines. An executable heap could be useful in languages with just-in-time compilation or dynamic loading of compiled code, although I don't know if any language implementations use such techniques. -- tim writer starnix inc. 905.771.0017 ext. 225 thornhill, ontario, canada http://www.starnix.com professional linux services & products -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From tim-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 4 10:08:40 2003 From: tim-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Tim Writer) Date: 04 Dec 2003 05:08:40 -0500 Subject: Multiple USB keyboards ? In-Reply-To: <20031203235015.GA6472-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20031203235015.GA6472@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: William Park writes: > I have multiple video cards (agp, pci) and multiple mouses (serial, > ps/2, usb) working independently. That is, I can choose which should be > selected when bringing up X. > > But, multiple keyboards are all shared; so, you can press keys from any > keyboard. How do you get them working independently? By having a separate XF86Config for each keyboard, mouse, and video card combination. Each XF86Config would have its own InputDevice sections for its respective keyboard and mouse. The trick is to know which device (in /dev) represents which keyboard or mouse. This is obviouse if you have say one PS/2 keyboard, one USB keyboard, one PS/2 mouse, and one USB mouse. But it's tricky if you have multiple USB keyboards and mice since they will be assigned entries in /dev/input dynamically. As long as you keep them permanently plugged in, you should be able to figure out what's what by trial and error. Note, while I have used USB keyboards and mice, I haven't tried this type of setup so YMMV. Good luck, -- tim writer starnix inc. 905.771.0017 ext. 225 thornhill, ontario, canada http://www.starnix.com professional linux services & products -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 4 13:07:08 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 08:07:08 -0500 Subject: Got a license for that Code? Message-ID: <20031204080708.5c81eee7.joehill@sympatico.ca> "It looks like the Microsoft front organizations are pushing licensing for software writers. Of course, the usual suspects, the BSA and ITAA are involved in writing the laws." Link: http://newsvac.newsforge.com/article.pl?sid=03/12/03/1640223 -- JoeHill ++ ICQ # 280779813 Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "Behind every great fortune is a crime." -- Balzac -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jason-gaRZxGPHtpBxZtjKW1aY+1aTQe2KTcn/ at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 4 13:28:41 2003 From: jason-gaRZxGPHtpBxZtjKW1aY+1aTQe2KTcn/ at public.gmane.org (Jason Shein) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 08:28:41 -0500 Subject: video plugin for mozilla on linux In-Reply-To: <20031203173922.177dfa77.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <3F6670D9.4030708@rogers.com> <20030915233207.GC9009@gamma373-002.portable.resnet.yorku.ca> <20030915234326.22145a1b.joehill@sympatico.ca> <20030916002207.GA4889@gamma373-002.portable.resnet.yorku.ca> <1070474678.2130.70.camel@localhost> <20031203191047.GA2621@groundstate.chem.yorku.ca> <20031203173922.177dfa77.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <3FCF3689.8060202@pcsecurityonline.com> You can get the Macromedis Flash rpm's here http://sluglug.ucsc.edu/macromedia/site_ucsc.html And mozplugger if you do not already have it installed http://freshmeat.net/redir/mozplugger/37064/url_rpm/mozplugger-1.3.2-1.i586.rpm JoeHill wrote: > On Wed, 3 Dec 2003 14:10:47 -0500 > Austin wrote: > > >>>I want to install real player and flash plug-ins on Mandrake 9.2. >>>First I am trying to get flash to work, but after installation I >>>receive: >>> >>>LoadPlugin: failed to initialize shared library >>>/usr/lib/mozilla-1.5/plugins/libflashplayer.so >>>[libstdc++-libc6.2-2.so.3: cannot open shared object file: No such >>>file or directory] >> >># urpmi libstdc++2.10 >> >>BTW, the rpm is non-free software so it's only available on the >>PowerPack CD's and on the club website. > > > Strange, this wasn't the case on 9.1. I had Texstar's Mozilla Flash plugin > workin' fine, and I certainly have no club membership...yet ;-) > > Now I'm stuck in the same situation as Lloyd. > -- " Eventually people tire of repairing broken Windows, And decide to replace them with something stronger" (o_ //\ Linux - The Choice Of A GNU Generation V_/_ Jason Shein Linux Registered User #281100 jason-gaRZxGPHtpBxZtjKW1aY+1aTQe2KTcn/@public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 4 13:30:39 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 08:30:39 -0500 Subject: video plugin for mozilla on linux In-Reply-To: <3FCF3689.8060202-gaRZxGPHtpBxZtjKW1aY+1aTQe2KTcn/@public.gmane.org> References: <3F6670D9.4030708@rogers.com> <20030915233207.GC9009@gamma373-002.portable.resnet.yorku.ca> <20030915234326.22145a1b.joehill@sympatico.ca> <20030916002207.GA4889@gamma373-002.portable.resnet.yorku.ca> <1070474678.2130.70.camel@localhost> <20031203191047.GA2621@groundstate.chem.yorku.ca> <20031203173922.177dfa77.joehill@sympatico.ca> <3FCF3689.8060202@pcsecurityonline.com> Message-ID: <20031204083039.37b9c6d3.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Thu, 04 Dec 2003 08:28:41 -0500 Jason Shein wrote: > You can get the Macromedis Flash rpm's here > > http://sluglug.ucsc.edu/macromedia/site_ucsc.html > > > And mozplugger if you do not already have it installed > > http://freshmeat.net/redir/mozplugger/37064/url_rpm/mozplugger-1.3.2-1.i586.rpm Got 'er all workin' fine now, I wasn't paying attention (surprise) and missed Lloyd's link to libstdc++2.10, once I got that installed it was good to go. Thanks! -- JoeHill ++ ICQ # 280779813 Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "I have the South in front of me and the bankers behind me -- and for my country, I fear the bankers most."-- Abraham Lincoln -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 4 14:32:58 2003 From: phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org (Peter Hiscocks) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 09:32:58 -0500 Subject: C considered harmful In-Reply-To: ; from henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg@public.gmane.org on Wed, Dec 03, 2003 at 11:30:28PM -0500 References: <20031203225543.A2288@ee.ryerson.ca> Message-ID: <20031204093258.A3351@ee.ryerson.ca> OK, you have an excellent point, Henry, that people have chosen C for good reasons. I actually was on the receiving end of this kind of academic scorn at one point. I had developed a computer controlled sound system for use in the theatre, and this being 1982 or so, I had to use what was available, the Commodore PET. The system was written in a combination of Commodore Basic and 6502 assembly language. I was at a party of comp sci academics and one of the profs - a guy who specialized in human interfaces - expressed some interest in the system. When he heard that the system was programmed in basic he turned to his neighbour and said 'We have to stop these people from programming in basic'. and then walked away. The system was used in a number of shows in Toronto and then the concept was adopted by another company and made into a successful product. At the time, I thought of your point: people liked those Basic languages (which does have some appalling shortcomings as a language) for a number of good reasons - they were a friendly development environment, and easy to interface to assembly language. Furthermore, you couldn't get any other language for the Commodore PET. A competent engineer works with what they have available. Incidentally, a modern version of Basic is Tcl/Tk, which has many of the same properties that made Basic popular. So, it is an interesting challenge to the language writers to create something that has the power of the C language and still does (say) automatic checking of array bounds. Peter On Wed, Dec 03, 2003 at 11:30:28PM -0500, Henry Spencer wrote: > On Wed, 3 Dec 2003, Peter Hiscocks wrote: > > This exploit, like others against Unix machines many years ago, was based on > > a buffer overflow dumping the user into supervisor space. > > Actually, no, as I understand it (with the caveat that I haven't really > gone investigating), this one is *not* a buffer overflow, exactly. It's > the result of *integer* overflow in (essentially) a buffer-overflow check. > A language with automatic buffer-overflow checks could easily have the > same vulnerability, if the implementor wasn't careful. > > > This, in turn, is > > a direct result of the fact that the C programming language does not check > > or enforce limits on a string length or buffer size - that's left up to the > > individual programmer. > > As has often been said, C gives you all the rope you need to hang yourself. > > > After all, C is not so much a systems programming language as a high-level > > version of assembly language. > > Oddly enough, it has pushed most "real" systems programming languages out > of the business. And this is *not* because of sharp marketing tactics or > firm backing by a big organization or dot-com hype -- quite the contrary. > It succeeded because people with work to do find it easier to get results > in C than in "real" systems programming languages, and so it spread and > prospered despite inept or nonexistent marketing, uncertain support, and a > marked dearth of hype. > > It behooves people who aspire to design systems programming languages to > *PAY* *ATTENTION* *DAMMIT*, rather than just casting aspersions on the > intelligence and judgement of the customer. It is their own damn fault; > their languages keep failing, and C keeps succeeding despite its nasty > flaws, because they keep ignoring the needs of the real language users. > People went with C because it did what they wanted, instead of telling > them they shouldn't want that. > > > Years ago, Philipe Khan of Borland said that 'C is a disease and the > > Americans are spreading it.' Maybe he had this kind of thing in mind. > > I don't think it is impossible to keep C's virtues while eliminating its > more grievous faults. But it will not be done by people who look down > their long aristocratic noses at C, and scorn it as a peasant's language > of no interest to them. > > Henry Spencer > henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org > > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- Peter D. Hiscocks Department of Electrical and Computer Engineering Ryerson University, 350 Victoria Street, Toronto, Ontario, M5B 2K3, Canada Phone: (416) 979-5000 Ext 6109 Fax: (416) 979-5280 Email: phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org URL: http://www.ee.ryerson.ca/~phiscock -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 4 14:35:03 2003 From: phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org (Peter Hiscocks) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 09:35:03 -0500 Subject: C considered harmful: was Debian attacker may have used new exploit In-Reply-To: <1070512563.8059.25.camel-eTg7c9BlEq95hrpxxnI5yFifK/mc/01a@public.gmane.org>; from marcus.brubaker-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org on Wed, Dec 03, 2003 at 11:36:04PM -0500 References: <20031203110247.711160e4.joehill@sympatico.ca> <20031203152331.C4490@algate.perlwolf.com> <20031203152344.41a2aafb.joehill@sympatico.ca> <20031203173515.D4490@algate.perlwolf.com> <20031203171138.0819bdba.joehill@sympatico.ca> <20031203230731.G877@algate.perlwolf.com> <3FCEA859.6050900@rogers.com> <20031203225543.A2288@ee.ryerson.ca> <1070512563.8059.25.camel@rincewind.discworld> Message-ID: <20031204093503.B3351@ee.ryerson.ca> Marcus - Thanks for the references. I may be incorrect, but I believe Heather Hinton was involved with the 'stackguard' project. She's now with IBM it Austin, Texas. Peter On Wed, Dec 03, 2003 at 11:36:04PM -0500, Marcus Brubaker wrote: > On Wed, 2003-12-03 at 22:55, Peter Hiscocks wrote: > > OK, I hate to flog a dead horse but really: > > > > Hmmmm, this is likely to start a looooong drawn out flame thread. > Language arguments almost always do. So, with trying to prevent that in > mind, I will avoid standing up for my general language of choice and > instead offer an alternative. > > > This exploit, like others against Unix machines many years ago, was based on > > a buffer overflow dumping the user into supervisor space. This, in turn, is > > a direct result of the fact that the C programming language does not check > > or enforce limits on a string length or buffer size - that's left up to the > > individual programmer. > > > > Surely, given the importance of security, it should be possible to fix the C > > language (or my preference, use a different one) to do systems programming. > > After all, C is not so much a systems programming language as a high-level > > version of assembly language. > > > > "Fixing" C in the sense you're imagining will never happen and people > often do use other languages for specific tasks. However, other > languages are not immune to buffer overflows as most of them are > actually written in C themselves. > > The better solution is things like stackguard[1] and execshield[2] which > actually fix the root problem: the stack should NOT be executable and > neither should most of the heap and likewise portions of memory which > are actively executable shouldn't be writable from userspace. > > > (Incidentally, a former profs at Ryerson, Heather Hinton, was working on > > such a mechanism to prevent stack overflows. I guess it's never been widely > > adopted.) > > Hinton...any relation to Geoffrey Hinton? At any rate, many people have > (and continue) to work on stack guards and similar solutions. See [1] > and [2]. As with all security measures, its just a question of getting > people to use them. > > -- > Marcus Brubaker > > [1] http://www.immunix.org/stackguard.html > [2] http://seclists.org/lists/linux-kernel/2003/May/0371.html and http://people.redhat.com/mingo/exec-shield/ > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- Peter D. Hiscocks Department of Electrical and Computer Engineering Ryerson University, 350 Victoria Street, Toronto, Ontario, M5B 2K3, Canada Phone: (416) 979-5000 Ext 6109 Fax: (416) 979-5280 Email: phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org URL: http://www.ee.ryerson.ca/~phiscock -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From Kpanchoo-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 4 15:31:28 2003 From: Kpanchoo-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Kerry Panchoo) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 10:31:28 -0500 Subject: video plugin for mozilla on linux In-Reply-To: <3FCF3689.8060202-gaRZxGPHtpBxZtjKW1aY+1aTQe2KTcn/@public.gmane.org> References: <3F6670D9.4030708@rogers.com> <20030915233207.GC9009@gamma373-002.portable.resnet.yorku.ca> <20030915234326.22145a1b.joehill@sympatico.ca> <20030916002207.GA4889@gamma373-002.portable.resnet.yorku.ca> <1070474678.2130.70.camel@localhost> <20031203191047.GA2621@groundstate.chem.yorku.ca> <20031203173922.177dfa77.joehill@sympatico.ca> <3FCF3689.8060202@pcsecurityonline.com> Message-ID: <3FCF5350.8050407@rogers.com> for redhat 9 -- take a look at http://media4redhat.frontspace.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From marcus.brubaker-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 4 17:56:04 2003 From: marcus.brubaker-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Marcus Brubaker) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 12:56:04 -0500 Subject: C considered harmful: was Debian attacker may have used new exploit In-Reply-To: References: <1070517676.8059.42.camel@rincewind.discworld> Message-ID: <1070560563.10670.5.camel@rincewind.discworld> On Thu, 2003-12-04 at 04:27, Tim Writer wrote: > Marcus Brubaker writes: > > > On Wed, 2003-12-03 at 23:30, Henry Spencer wrote: > > > On Wed, 3 Dec 2003, Peter Hiscocks wrote: > > Hell, even Prolog and the many species of LISP-type-languages are > > interesting in their own right (though not terribly useful in my mind). > > LISP not useful? Sacrilege! I'm responding to this with Gnus, still > arguably one of the best mail/news clients, running within Xemacs, still > arguably one of the best programmers' editors (vi/emacs flame wars > notwithstanding), written in a dialect of LISP. > Alright alright, I give, LISP is certainly more useful than a lot of languages and people have done some interesting things in them :) > > But if you fit well into a specific category of application development > > then there is a whole host of better choices for you. For instance, next > > major GUI application I write will probably be in Java [....] > > You might find this article, by one of the LISP community's greats, both > interesting and on topic: > > http://www.paulgraham.com/javacover.html To each their own opinion but if you want to do OOP then there really isn't a better language out there than Java. From my point of view Java is C++ done relatively right from the language perspective. Regards, -- Marcus Brubaker -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From adb-tlug-AbAJl/g/NLXk1uMJSBkQmQ at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 4 18:42:39 2003 From: adb-tlug-AbAJl/g/NLXk1uMJSBkQmQ at public.gmane.org (Anthony de Boer) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 13:42:39 -0500 Subject: C considered harmful In-Reply-To: <20031204093258.A3351-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w@public.gmane.org>; from phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w@public.gmane.org on Thu, Dec 04, 2003 at 09:32:58AM -0500 References: <20031204093258.A3351@ee.ryerson.ca> Message-ID: <20031204134238.L32040@leftmind.net> Peter Hiscocks wrote: > So, it is an interesting challenge to the language writers to create > something that has the power of the C language and still does (say) > automatic checking of array bounds. This idea may be fine within an application, but it breaks down at security boundaries like the user/kernel interface, since the kernel had better not trust the user program's claim of the size of an array (this being an approximation of how Debian got burned), also since the kernel is dynamically carving out chunks of memory for things, and since "one man's program is another man's data" (the whole program may be one array of mere data to the kernel). There's a lot that can be fixed with opaque handles to structures (eg. Dan Bernstein's string library as opposed to the traditional C library's simple char * string implementation); C++ formalizes some such ideas, but a prudent C programmer can write better code without needing C++'s extra baggage. -- Anthony de Boer -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From adb-tlug-AbAJl/g/NLXk1uMJSBkQmQ at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 4 18:46:09 2003 From: adb-tlug-AbAJl/g/NLXk1uMJSBkQmQ at public.gmane.org (Anthony de Boer) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 13:46:09 -0500 Subject: Debian attacker may have used new exploit In-Reply-To: ; from robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy@public.gmane.org on Wed, Dec 03, 2003 at 09:59:43AM -0500 References: Message-ID: <20031204134609.M32040@leftmind.net> Robert Brockway wrote: > Most exploits discovered these days are found by those who launch a > concerted effort to detect them. By sheer number and amount of effort > most of the people who discover exploits are in the security establishment > and are not Black Hats. > > I, along with most security professionals, maintain that the > vendors/developers are better off receiving some amount of warning before > the exploit goes public. ... I find it useful to consider three shades of hat; besides the black hat who will exploit a bug, and the white hat who honestly wants the bug fixed, there's the gray hat who discovers bugs for fame and fortune, and cares more for counting coup with his name in Bugtraq than for actually getting it fixed. -- Anthony de Boer -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From grant.cullen-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 4 19:15:26 2003 From: grant.cullen-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (Grant Cullen) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 14:15:26 -0500 Subject: Got a license for that Code? In-Reply-To: <20031204080708.5c81eee7.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <20031204080708.5c81eee7.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: This as absolute madness. While I don't earn my living specifically by writing code, I do write some for customers as needed. The thought of submitting an annual fee to some draconian organisation makes me sick. This must not happen. Grant Cullen JADALL Consulting Ltd. grant.cullen-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org 416-706-4447 -----Original Message----- From: owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org [mailto:owner-tlug at ss.org]On Behalf Of JoeHill Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2003 08:07 To: TLUG Subject: [TLUG]: Got a license for that Code? "It looks like the Microsoft front organizations are pushing licensing for software writers. Of course, the usual suspects, the BSA and ITAA are involved in writing the laws." Link: http://newsvac.newsforge.com/article.pl?sid=03/12/03/1640223 -- JoeHill ++ ICQ # 280779813 Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "Behind every great fortune is a crime." -- Balzac -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 4 19:34:34 2003 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter L. Peres) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 21:34:34 +0200 (IST) Subject: C considered harmful In-Reply-To: <20031204134238.L32040-AbAJl/g/NLXk1uMJSBkQmQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20031204093258.A3351@ee.ryerson.ca> <20031204134238.L32040@leftmind.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 4 Dec 2003, Anthony de Boer wrote: > Peter Hiscocks wrote: > > So, it is an interesting challenge to the language writers to create > > something that has the power of the C language and still does (say) > > automatic checking of array bounds. > > This idea may be fine within an application, but it breaks down at > security boundaries like the user/kernel interface, since the kernel had > better not trust the user program's claim of the size of an array (this And it does not. The kernel invariably verifies the access rights on the passed data field, whose size is explicitly passed to the kernel, before doing anything else. If it does not, then there is a bug in the kernel, not in C. Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From rufmetal-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 4 20:00:07 2003 From: rufmetal-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org (Chris Keelan) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 15:00:07 -0500 Subject: God help us all... In-Reply-To: <20031201180836.4b0a0b1c.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <20031201155321.281d5995.joehill@sympatico.ca> <3FCBC626.2060703@rogers.com> <1070319860.2148.0.camel@gamma373-365.portable.resnet.yorku.ca> <20031201180836.4b0a0b1c.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <20031204150007.4a515a20.rufmetal@eol.ca> On Mon, 1 Dec 2003 18:08:36 -0500 JoeHill wrote: > ...ya, until this part kicks in: > > "The software running their brakes will upgrade itself wirelessly." > > That ought to be a fun experience coming down the 427 and running into > a line of slow-moving transports...Windows Update patches your brake > software and you end up a red smear on some guy's "How's My Driving?" > bumper sticker. Pop-up window on the windshield HUD: Hi, it looks as if you're trying to pass someone. Do you want me to: + Increase speed + Honk the horn + Search the internet for tips about safe driving + See more about passing and right of way... Looks like you forgot to un-check the box which says "Show this window every time I accelerate" ~ C -- That's like banging rocks together and being proud that you've re-derived fire from first principles. ~ Jamie Zawinski -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From rgfranks-cmaem7PIVQT44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 4 20:38:38 2003 From: rgfranks-cmaem7PIVQT44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Greg Franks) Date: 04 Dec 2003 15:38:38 -0500 Subject: OOP, Was: C considered harmful: was Debian attacker may have used new exploit In-Reply-To: <1070560563.10670.5.camel-eTg7c9BlEq95hrpxxnI5yFifK/mc/01a@public.gmane.org> References: <1070517676.8059.42.camel@rincewind.discworld> <1070560563.10670.5.camel@rincewind.discworld> Message-ID: >>>>> "Marcus" == Marcus Brubaker writes: Marcus> To each their own opinion but if you want to do OOP then Marcus> there really isn't a better language out there than Java. You forgot Smalltalk. Everything is an object, even integers. Marcus> From my point of view Java is C++ done relatively right Marcus> from the language perspective. -- __@ Greg Franks <| _~@ __O _`\<,_ Ottawa, Ontario, Canada |O\ -^\<;^\<, (*)/ (*) (*)--(*)%---/(*) "Where do you want to go today?" Outside. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 4 21:06:08 2003 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter L. Peres) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 23:06:08 +0200 (IST) Subject: OOP, Was: C considered harmful: was Debian attacker may have used new exploit In-Reply-To: References: <1070517676.8059.42.camel@rincewind.discworld> <1070560563.10670.5.camel@rincewind.discworld> Message-ID: On Thu, 4 Dec 2003, Greg Franks wrote: > >>>>> "Marcus" == Marcus Brubaker writes: > Marcus> To each their own opinion but if you want to do OOP then > Marcus> there really isn't a better language out there than Java. > > You forgot Smalltalk. Everything is an object, even integers. Yes, and the processing overhead for an addition is about the same as for a square root extraction. Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From taavi-LbuTpDkqzNzXI80/IeQp7B2eb7JE58TQ at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 4 21:29:33 2003 From: taavi-LbuTpDkqzNzXI80/IeQp7B2eb7JE58TQ at public.gmane.org (Taavi Burns) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 16:29:33 -0500 Subject: OOP, Was: C considered harmful: was Debian attacker may have used new exploit In-Reply-To: References: <1070517676.8059.42.camel@rincewind.discworld> <1070560563.10670.5.camel@rincewind.discworld> Message-ID: <20031204212933.GP12898@hatefulsheep.ym.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> On Thu, Dec 04, 2003 at 11:06:08PM +0200, Peter L. Peres wrote: > On Thu, 4 Dec 2003, Greg Franks wrote: > > >>>>> "Marcus" == Marcus Brubaker writes: > > Marcus> To each their own opinion but if you want to do OOP then > > Marcus> there really isn't a better language out there than Java. > > > > You forgot Smalltalk. Everything is an object, even integers. > > Yes, and the processing overhead for an addition is about the same as for > a square root extraction. Then have a look at Objective-C. It's been used on a couple of platforms (most notable NeXT and OSX, which are debatably the same thing), has lower overhead than Java, and strikes a nice medium between C++ objects and C simplicity. And hey, GCC supports it, so you already have the tools at hand. http://www.toodarkpark.org/computers/objc/ http://developer.apple.com/documentation/Cocoa/Conceptual/ObjectiveC/ -- taa /*eof*/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jmm-TU2q2He6PgRlD5gtYiU6kEEOCMrvLtNR at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 4 22:45:11 2003 From: jmm-TU2q2He6PgRlD5gtYiU6kEEOCMrvLtNR at public.gmane.org (John Macdonald) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 17:45:11 -0500 Subject: C considered harmful In-Reply-To: <20031204134238.L32040-AbAJl/g/NLXk1uMJSBkQmQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20031204093258.A3351@ee.ryerson.ca> <20031204134238.L32040@leftmind.net> Message-ID: <20031204174511.A9128@algate.perlwolf.com> On Thu, Dec 04, 2003 at 01:42:39PM -0500, Anthony de Boer wrote: > Peter Hiscocks wrote: > > So, it is an interesting challenge to the language writers to create > > something that has the power of the C language and still does (say) > > automatic checking of array bounds. > > This idea may be fine within an application, but it breaks down at > security boundaries like the user/kernel interface, since the kernel had > better not trust the user program's claim of the size of an array (this > being an approximation of how Debian got burned), also since the kernel > is dynamically carving out chunks of memory for things, and since "one > man's program is another man's data" (the whole program may be one array > of mere data to the kernel). > > There's a lot that can be fixed with opaque handles to structures (eg. > Dan Bernstein's string library as opposed to the traditional C library's > simple char * string implementation); C++ formalizes some such ideas, > but a prudent C programmer can write better code without needing C++'s > extra baggage. Not only does language provided bounds checking fail to be useful in this instance, it is this sort of case where it often can get in the way. Not only does the kernel code have to convert and validate pointer values between user space representation and kernel representation but (in the case of language enforced bounds checking) it would also have to convert the bounds info as well as the address, *and then convince the language that it is allowed to use the converted result. Often, languages that try to prevent errors do not provide a way to cheat (i.e. compose a "pointer" by hand). -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 4 22:44:19 2003 From: henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org (Henry Spencer) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 17:44:19 -0500 (EST) Subject: C considered harmful In-Reply-To: <20031204174511.A9128-TU2q2He6PgRlD5gtYiU6kEEOCMrvLtNR@public.gmane.org> References: <20031204174511.A9128@algate.perlwolf.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 4 Dec 2003, John Macdonald wrote: > ... *and then convince the language that it is allowed to use > the converted result. Often, languages that try to > prevent errors do not provide a way to cheat (i.e. > compose a "pointer" by hand). The ones that are intended for systems programming generally do provide a way to do it, although it may be encapsulated in a special "low-level operations" library rather than being something you can casually do in one line of source code. (That encapsulation is probably a good thing. C's big problem is not that it can do bizarre stuff, but that the compiler can't tell whether that's what you really wanted. You *can* write a bounds-checking C compiler -- there is nothing in the standard C language that prevents it -- but because it's so hard to tell what the programmer is up to, such an implementation has to use worst-case strategies that impose heavy run-time overheads.) System calls generally are invoked via library routines anyway. If worst comes to worst, those routines can be written in assembler, so they can cheat as required. (That's how things were done in the original Unix C implementation on the pdp11, in fact, because the system-call calling conventions had been designed for use from assembler and weren't a good match to C.) Henry Spencer henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jingsu-26n5VD7DAF2Tm46uYYfjYg at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 4 22:46:51 2003 From: jingsu-26n5VD7DAF2Tm46uYYfjYg at public.gmane.org (Jing Su) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 17:46:51 -0500 Subject: OOP, Was: C considered harmful: was Debian attacker may have used new exploit In-Reply-To: <20031204212933.GP12898-9xiANKxwco42bRTacqR3/JR8nzhMnQZF/mqnPsBvoffFpvyHdVPjngC/G2K4zDHf@public.gmane.org> References: <1070517676.8059.42.camel@rincewind.discworld> <1070560563.10670.5.camel@rincewind.discworld> <20031204212933.GP12898@hatefulsheep.ym.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> Message-ID: > > Yes, and the processing overhead for an addition is about the same as for > > a square root extraction. An "I'm feeling Lucky" on google over "smalltalk performance overhead" seems to provide a page with a simple micro-benchmark that refutes the "add" overhead example. Certainly it's not as fast as assembler, but comparing it to the cost of square rooting seems to be much. http://www.exept.de/sites/exept/onlineDoc/english/programming/STspeed.html DISCLAIMER: I'm no language expert, I have no real-world experience with Smalltalk, and I do not know the latest research in language performance/correctness/tradeoff issues (citeseer seems to provide many many links on this subject, though I haven't taken the time to wade through it). -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From anton-F0u+EriZ6ihBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 4 23:26:04 2003 From: anton-F0u+EriZ6ihBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Anton Markov) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 18:26:04 -0500 Subject: video plugin for mozilla on linux In-Reply-To: <3FCF3689.8060202-gaRZxGPHtpBxZtjKW1aY+1aTQe2KTcn/@public.gmane.org> References: <3F6670D9.4030708@rogers.com> <20030915233207.GC9009@gamma373-002.portable.resnet.yorku.ca> <20030915234326.22145a1b.joehill@sympatico.ca> <20030916002207.GA4889@gamma373-002.portable.resnet.yorku.ca> <1070474678.2130.70.camel@localhost> <20031203191047.GA2621@groundstate.chem.yorku.ca> <20031203173922.177dfa77.joehill@sympatico.ca> <3FCF3689.8060202@pcsecurityonline.com> Message-ID: <3FCFC28C.2070403@truxtar.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 has very good instructions for using plugins under Linux. Especially video ones. - -- Anton Markov <("anton" + "@" + "truxtar" + "." + "com")> GnuPGP Key fingerprint = 5546 A6E2 1FFB 9BB8 15C3 CE34 46B7 8D93 3AD1 44B4 ~ "The difference between insanity and genius is measured only by success." ~ - Some bad guy from 007 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQE/z8KMRreNkzrRRLQRAhNKAJ4lWFiw4HCb+x8pMyj3ECUgQRiygACeKQbL sMeczNeVDEOF89HKWwbN2c8= =B0Tt -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 4 23:46:40 2003 From: henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org (Henry Spencer) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 18:46:40 -0500 (EST) Subject: C considered harmful: was Debian attacker may have used new exploit In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 4 Dec 2003, Tim Writer wrote: > Maybe. Some language environments rely on an executable stack to implement > trampolines. An executable heap could be useful in languages with > just-in-time compilation or dynamic loading of compiled code, although I > don't know if any language implementations use such techniques. It has definitely been done, although I'm not up to date on current examples. I think it would not be difficult to exclude executable code from the stack, given some design attention to it, but there are a number of dynamic-code-generation techniques which really need the ability to make portions of the heap executable. Mind you, just a non-executable stack would solve a lot of problems. You can envision more complicated solutions in which you could ask the kernel to make part of the heap executable but read-only: you do your dynamic code generation first, but you have to make the resulting code read-only before you can run out of it. In fact, you may need to interact with the kernel at that point *anyway*, to make sure that caches are flushed properly, so the overhead may be minimal. But it's not clear to me that this really improves things much. If you can overwrite control information, e.g. a function return address -- which is generally needed to *exploit* an executable stack or heap -- then you can always look around for places where you could branch to existing code that happens to do what you want. (For example, functions which do dynamic code generation will have a strong tendency to end with the sequence "tell the system to make the heap region pointed to by register X executable; return".) Henry Spencer henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 4 23:54:54 2003 From: phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org (Peter Hiscocks) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 18:54:54 -0500 Subject: C considered harmful: was Debian attacker may have used new exploit In-Reply-To: ; from henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg@public.gmane.org on Thu, Dec 04, 2003 at 06:46:40PM -0500 References: Message-ID: <20031204185454.A8842@ee.ryerson.ca> Dynamic code generation (program writes code then jumps to it) sounds like a really useful facility for virus writers, trojan horses and worms. In what circumstance is it necessary to have that capability? Isn't it much safer to have a rigid demarcation between code generation and code execution? Then the operating system can do run-time checks on the thing it's about to execute. Peter On Thu, Dec 04, 2003 at 06:46:40PM -0500, Henry Spencer wrote: > But it's not clear to me that this really improves things much. If you > can overwrite control information, e.g. a function return address -- which > is generally needed to *exploit* an executable stack or heap -- then you > can always look around for places where you could branch to existing code > that happens to do what you want. (For example, functions which do > dynamic code generation will have a strong tendency to end with the > sequence "tell the system to make the heap region pointed to by register X > executable; return".) > > Henry Spencer > henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org > > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- Peter D. Hiscocks Department of Electrical and Computer Engineering Ryerson University, 350 Victoria Street, Toronto, Ontario, M5B 2K3, Canada Phone: (416) 979-5000 Ext 6109 Fax: (416) 979-5280 Email: phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org URL: http://www.ee.ryerson.ca/~phiscock -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jingsu-26n5VD7DAF2Tm46uYYfjYg at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 5 00:01:08 2003 From: jingsu-26n5VD7DAF2Tm46uYYfjYg at public.gmane.org (Jing Su) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 19:01:08 -0500 Subject: C considered harmful: was Debian attacker may have used new exploit In-Reply-To: <20031204185454.A8842-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w@public.gmane.org> References: <20031204185454.A8842@ee.ryerson.ca> Message-ID: > Dynamic code generation (program writes code then jumps to it) sounds like a > really useful facility for virus writers, trojan horses and worms. In what > circumstance is it necessary to have that capability? Dynamic run-time optimization. Hot field of research (though I know nothing about it). -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 5 00:06:10 2003 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 19:06:10 -0500 Subject: Multiple USB keyboards ? In-Reply-To: References: <20031203235015.GA6472@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <20031205000610.GA805@node1.opengeometry.net> On Thu, Dec 04, 2003 at 05:08:40AM -0500, Tim Writer wrote: > William Park writes: > > > I have multiple video cards (agp, pci) and multiple mouses (serial, > > ps/2, usb) working independently. That is, I can choose which > > should be selected when bringing up X. > > > > But, multiple keyboards are all shared; so, you can press keys from > > any keyboard. How do you get them working independently? > > By having a separate XF86Config for each keyboard, mouse, and video > card combination. Each XF86Config would have its own InputDevice > sections for its respective keyboard and mouse. The trick is to know > which device (in /dev) represents which keyboard or mouse. This is > obviouse if you have say one PS/2 keyboard, one USB keyboard, one PS/2 > mouse, and one USB mouse. But it's tricky if you have multiple USB > keyboards and mice since they will be assigned entries in /dev/input > dynamically. As long as you keep them permanently plugged in, you > should be able to figure out what's what by trial and error. > > Note, while I have used USB keyboards and mice, I haven't tried this > type of setup so YMMV. Found it! -- http://cambuca.ldhs.cetuc.puc-rio.br/multiuser/ I got this working on my Slackware-9.1, kernel-2.4.23, and XFree86-4.3.0. Key insights are - modprobe -r keybdev - modprobe evdev -- William Park, Open Geometry Consulting, Linux solution for data management and processing. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 5 00:36:12 2003 From: fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Fraser Campbell) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 19:36:12 -0500 Subject: C considered harmful: was Debian attacker may have used new exploit In-Reply-To: <1070560563.10670.5.camel-eTg7c9BlEq95hrpxxnI5yFifK/mc/01a@public.gmane.org> References: <1070560563.10670.5.camel@rincewind.discworld> Message-ID: <200312041936.12145.fraser@wehave.net> On December 4, 2003 12:56 pm, Marcus Brubaker wrote: > > You might find this article, by one of the LISP community's greats, both > > interesting and on topic: > > > > http://www.paulgraham.com/javacover.html > > To each their own opinion but if you want to do OOP then there really > isn't a better language out there than Java. Do people write real software with java or is still just web stuff? -- Fraser Campbell http://www.wehave.net/ Georgetown, Ontario, Canada Debian GNU/Linux -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From tim-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 5 00:48:12 2003 From: tim-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Tim Writer) Date: 04 Dec 2003 19:48:12 -0500 Subject: C considered harmful: was Debian attacker may have used new exploit In-Reply-To: References: <20031204185454.A8842@ee.ryerson.ca> Message-ID: Jing Su writes: > > Dynamic code generation (program writes code then jumps to it) sounds like a > > really useful facility for virus writers, trojan horses and worms. In what > > circumstance is it necessary to have that capability? > > Dynamic run-time optimization. Hot field of research (though I know > nothing about it). That's one area. Decent LISP environments often blur the distinction between interpreted code, byte compiled code (to be executed by a virtual machine), and compiled code (i.e. machine language). Such environments allow you to integrate interpreted code with compiled code as well as compiling (with varying levels of optimization) individual functions. I'm sure other languages have similar environments. These tools can really enhance productivity as they facilitate rapid development by eliminating the compile/link/run cycle without sacrificing performance. And they tend to have great debugging facilities. Of course, you arguably don't need these facilities in "production code". So it wouldn't be too onerous to restrict this ability (to compile and execute code on-the-fly) to specific, privileged binaries via capabilities. -- tim writer starnix inc. 905.771.0017 ext. 225 thornhill, ontario, canada http://www.starnix.com professional linux services & products -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 5 01:20:56 2003 From: henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org (Henry Spencer) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 20:20:56 -0500 (EST) Subject: C considered harmful: was Debian attacker may have used new exploit In-Reply-To: <20031204185454.A8842-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w@public.gmane.org> References: <20031204185454.A8842@ee.ryerson.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, 4 Dec 2003, Peter Hiscocks wrote: > Dynamic code generation (program writes code then jumps to it) sounds like a > really useful facility for virus writers, trojan horses and worms. In what > circumstance is it necessary to have that capability? It's highly desirable in cases where performance is critical and there are too many different cases to just include one of each in a precompiled binary. The classic example is Rob Pike's dynamically-compiled implementation of RasterOp -- operations on one-bit-deep frame buffers -- where the number of cases is the product of a dozen different variables each with several values. Similar things can be done for applications like network routing. Similarly, it's heavily used for implementing languages whose full generality must be interpretive, but for which special cases can be identified at run time and compiled into hard code. > Isn't it much safer to have a rigid demarcation between code generation and > code execution? Safer, but less powerful. Henry Spencer henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 5 02:08:49 2003 From: henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org (Henry Spencer) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 21:08:49 -0500 (EST) Subject: C considered harmful In-Reply-To: <20031204093258.A3351-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w@public.gmane.org> References: <20031204093258.A3351@ee.ryerson.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, 4 Dec 2003, Peter Hiscocks wrote: > So, it is an interesting challenge to the language writers to create > something that has the power of the C language and still does (say) > automatic checking of array bounds. It's not that hard, if that is all you want. In particular, if you work in C++ and *always* use its library string and vector types (which have built-in bounds checks in many implementations) rather than C arrays, the problem is more or less solved. If one finds C++ unappealing, which is certainly a defensible position :-), then there's more of a problem. Henry Spencer henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From marcus.brubaker-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 5 02:30:00 2003 From: marcus.brubaker-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Marcus Brubaker) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 21:30:00 -0500 Subject: C considered harmful: was Debian attacker may have used new exploit In-Reply-To: <200312041936.12145.fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org> References: <1070560563.10670.5.camel@rincewind.discworld> <200312041936.12145.fraser@wehave.net> Message-ID: <1070591400.12071.1.camel@rincewind.discworld> On Thu, 2003-12-04 at 19:36, Fraser Campbell wrote: > On December 4, 2003 12:56 pm, Marcus Brubaker wrote: > > > > You might find this article, by one of the LISP community's greats, both > > > interesting and on topic: > > > > > > http://www.paulgraham.com/javacover.html > > > > To each their own opinion but if you want to do OOP then there really > > isn't a better language out there than Java. > > Do people write real software with java or is still just web stuff? Absolutely. I've written a number of "real" projects in Java. Further, I use a number of applications that are written in Java. (E.G. PCGen) -- Marcus Brubaker -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 5 03:29:53 2003 From: phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org (Peter Hiscocks) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 22:29:53 -0500 Subject: C considered harmful: was Debian attacker may have used new exploit In-Reply-To: ; from henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg@public.gmane.org on Thu, Dec 04, 2003 at 08:20:56PM -0500 References: <20031204185454.A8842@ee.ryerson.ca> Message-ID: <20031204222953.H11231@ee.ryerson.ca> Interesting examples. Given that any code can be executed by a Turing machine (albeit somewhat slowly ;), I would bet that it is possible to do all these things in a way that separates the code and the data (ie, without generating code on the fly), but possibly not in a way that satisfies the current speed requirements. Or it might be that these approaches were taken at a time when this was the only way to get the necessary speed. So in the long run, it might even become more feasible to avoid what is effectively 'self modifying code' as processors get faster and memory gets cheaper. Peter On Thu, Dec 04, 2003 at 08:20:56PM -0500, Henry Spencer wrote: > It's highly desirable in cases where performance is critical and there are > too many different cases to just include one of each in a precompiled > binary. The classic example is Rob Pike's dynamically-compiled > implementation of RasterOp -- operations on one-bit-deep frame buffers -- > where the number of cases is the product of a dozen different variables > each with several values. Similar things can be done for applications > like network routing. > > Similarly, it's heavily used for implementing languages whose full > generality must be interpretive, but for which special cases can be > identified at run time and compiled into hard code. > > > Isn't it much safer to have a rigid demarcation between code generation and > > code execution? > > Safer, but less powerful. > > Henry Spencer > henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- Peter D. Hiscocks Department of Electrical and Computer Engineering Ryerson University, 350 Victoria Street, Toronto, Ontario, M5B 2K3, Canada Phone: (416) 979-5000 Ext 6109 Fax: (416) 979-5280 Email: phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org URL: http://www.ee.ryerson.ca/~phiscock -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From rgfranks-cmaem7PIVQT44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 5 03:24:54 2003 From: rgfranks-cmaem7PIVQT44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Greg Franks) Date: 04 Dec 2003 22:24:54 -0500 Subject: OOP, Was: C considered harmful: was Debian attacker may have used new exploit In-Reply-To: References: <1070517676.8059.42.camel@rincewind.discworld> <1070560563.10670.5.camel@rincewind.discworld> Message-ID: >>>>> "Peter" == Peter L Peres writes: Peter> On Thu, 4 Dec 2003, Greg Franks wrote: >> >>>>> "Marcus" == Marcus Brubaker >> writes: Marcus> To each their own opinion but if you want to do OOP then Marcus> there really isn't a better language out there than Java. >> You forgot Smalltalk. Everything is an object, even integers. Peter> Yes, and the processing overhead for an addition is about Peter> the same as for a square root extraction. You're thinking of an old smalltalk (or bad implementation perhaps...). The interpreter should do somthing like... if ( x & 8000000 ) { its an integer... } else { its an object... } Otoh, sqrt() isn't as pokey as it used to be either :-) -- __@ Greg Franks <| _~@ __O _`\<,_ Ottawa, Ontario, Canada |O\ -^\<;^\<, (*)/ (*) (*)--(*)%---/(*) "Where do you want to go today?" Outside. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 5 04:05:48 2003 From: henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org (Henry Spencer) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 23:05:48 -0500 (EST) Subject: C considered harmful: was Debian attacker may have used new exploit In-Reply-To: <20031204222953.H11231-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w@public.gmane.org> References: <20031204222953.H11231@ee.ryerson.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, 4 Dec 2003, Peter Hiscocks wrote: > Interesting examples. Given that any code can be executed by a Turing > machine (albeit somewhat slowly ;), I would bet that it is possible to do > all these things in a way that separates the code and the data (ie, without > generating code on the fly), but possibly not in a way that satisfies the > current speed requirements. Exactly. This is pure performance optimization. But it's a very powerful one which can make a huge difference. > ...it might even become more feasible to avoid what is effectively > 'self modifying code' as processors get faster and memory gets cheaper. Don't forget that the problems grow too. For example, considering the network-routing application, the networks are getting faster at about the same pace as the CPUs, so you don't *get* an advantage by waiting. Henry Spencer henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From mwilson-4YeSL8/OYKRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 4 22:24:54 2003 From: mwilson-4YeSL8/OYKRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Mel Wilson) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 17:24:54 -0500 Subject: SOT: shitfs in spam trends and topics References: <3FCC29EE.8040408@rogers.com> <20031202130036.8DF5F4054@cbbrowne.com> Message-ID: <2Q7z/ks/KfDR089yn@the-wire.com> In article <20031202130036.8DF5F4054-xzRQuAxiFLNWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org>, cbbrowne at acm.org wrote: >The odd trend I have been seeing is for there to be large numbers of >spam messages that seem totally futile. There's no way of contacting >them to buy their services. No URLs. No valid return address. No way >for the message to be of any value whatever, supposing I _did_ want to >increase my breasts by a couple of sizes. Two possibilities I can imagine. 1. Spammers acutely aware that they are wrong, and defying the world to catch them, even if it means losing a sale. 2. Steganography. Regards. Mel. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From anton-F0u+EriZ6ihBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 5 04:50:06 2003 From: anton-F0u+EriZ6ihBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Anton Markov) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 23:50:06 -0500 Subject: What to do with kernel panics? In-Reply-To: <3FCFCD46.6070407-F0u+EriZ6ihBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <3FB98235.3030803@truxtar.com> <3FCF430C.4010501@truxtar.com> <3FCFCD46.6070407@truxtar.com> Message-ID: <3FD00E7E.8060509@truxtar.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Hello everyone (again), I just realized these messages have not been going to the list, so I am replying to the list in hope of getting more answers. To add to the messages below, I just opened up my computer and found out that my motherboard is: American Megatrends P4VMM2 The BIOS shows the following serial number at the boot screen: 62-0124-001131-00101111-040201 It has an Award (AMIBIOS) BIOS Thanks in advance. Anton Markov wrote: | Hello Jing Su, | | Following your suggestions here is what I discovered: | | Jing Su wrote: | | I don't have any solid leads or answers for you... but I'll keep asking | | around to see if anyone else I know has any more suggestions to pass to | | you. | Thanks. | | | You shouldn't have any problems compiling the kernel. Especially if | | you're using RH9 (if I recall correctly). Compiling the kernel is | | actually a common test people use to test the stability of an overclocked | | computer. If compiling fails, it usually means that the voltage settings | | aren't stable or the memory isn't keeping up. | I am inclined to think this is the reason. I have noticed that not only | compiling, but other apps too have started randomly crashing. | | I may even know how it happened: after my mother-board was replaced, the | CPU front-side bus was set to 100MHz (1.8GHz CPU). I tried switching | the FSB speed to 133MHz (so it runs at 2.4GHz like it should). | Unfortunately, I didn't know where the DDR jumper was so I went back to | store and had the guy there take a look at it. He changed the DDR speed | and said it's OK now. Maybe he forgot the voltage. | | Where can I get the info about the appropriate voltages for my | CPU/Motherboard. The Motherboard has a VIA everything, and Award bios, | and I am not sure of the actual make. The CPU is a 2.4GHz Pentium 4. | | Here is the output from "sensor" (I've corrected some of the values): | | [anton-zMHcGNhTcHs at public.gmane.org anton]$ sensors | eeprom-i2c-0-50 | Adapter: SMBus Via Pro adapter at 0400 | Algorithm: Non-I2C SMBus adapter | Memory type: DDR SDRAM DIMM | Memory size (MB): 512 | | it87-isa-0290 | Adapter: ISA adapter | Algorithm: ISA algorithm | VCore 1: +1.53 V (min = +1.42 V, max = +1.56 V) | VCore 2: +2.54 V (min = +2.40 V, max = +2.60 V) | +3.3V: +6.68 V (min = +3.12 V, max = +3.44 V) ALARM | (+3.34?) | +5V: +4.94 V (min = +4.72 V, max = +5.24 V) | +12V: +12.00 V (min = +11.36 V, max = +12.60 V) | -12V: -20.61 V (min = -12.63 V, max = -11.41 V) ALARM | -------- (-10.31?) This one worries me. -------------- | -5V: +3.46 V (min = -5.28 V, max = -4.81 V) ALARM | ------- (???) ---------- This one too | Stdby: +5.11 V (min = +4.72 V, max = +5.24 V) | VBat: +3.39 V | fan1: 4623 RPM (min = 0 RPM, div = 2) | fan2: 0 RPM (min = 3000 RPM, div = 2) ALARM | fan3: 0 RPM (min = 3000 RPM, div = 2) ALARM | (fan2 and fan3 work in reality) | Temp1/MB: +37?C (low = +20?C, high = +40?C) | Temp2/CPU: -96?C (low = +25?C, high = +45?C) | (+43?) | Temp3: +75?C (low = +25?C, high = +45?C) | (+33?) | | | | | Have you ever had any previous problems with your memory sticks? | No. | | | | Just to make sure it's not a CPU, Memory, or Motherboard problem, you | | could try underclocking your CPU to something lower than the "vanilla" | | setting. Ensure that the processor has plenty of "error room" to work | | with. Try using these (albeit slower) settings, and try compiling the | | kernel again. If it succeeds this time (or if your computer stops | | crashing), then maybe there is something with your CPU settings you need | | to twiddle. | Come to think of it, the kernel compiled fine when I was running at | 1.7GHz until I tuned it up. | | | Are you using the Binary Only NVIDIA drivers? I experience the freeze | | problem with VT switching to/from X sometimes when using the binary | NVIDIA | | drivers, though I have no problems with resolution switching. | No. I have a Radeon 7000 and use the normal kernel radeon.o module. | The problem is probably the same voltage setting issue. Maybe the | voltage on the AGP bus? I tried going into Windows and switching the | resolutions a few times; seemed to work fine. | | | Do your XFree or Kernel logs show any error messages (looking at them | | after a reboot)? If it's a X or driver crash, maybe the kernel had just | | enough time to log something.... | No. Nothing interesting in either log. Maybe just this one thing in | XFree86.0.log: | | drmOpenDevice: minor is 0 | drmOpenDevice: node name is /dev/dri/card0 | drmOpenDevice: open result is -1, (No such device) | drmOpenDevice: open result is -1, (No such device) | drmOpenDevice: Open failed | drmOpenDevice: minor is 0 | drmOpenDevice: node name is /dev/dri/card0 | drmOpenDevice: open result is -1, (No such device) | drmOpenDevice: open result is -1, (No such device) | drmOpenDevice: Open failed | drmOpenDevice: minor is 0 | drmOpenDevice: node name is /dev/dri/card0 | drmOpenDevice: open result is 8, (OK) | | Seems like it keeps missing the card, although it may just be the delay | from loading the radeon.o module automaticly. | - -- Anton Markov <("anton" + "@" + "truxtar" + "." + "com")> GnuPGP Key fingerprint = 5546 A6E2 1FFB 9BB8 15C3 CE34 46B7 8D93 3AD1 44B4 ~ "The difference between insanity and genius is measured only by success." ~ - Some bad guy from 007 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQE/0A59RreNkzrRRLQRAqOjAJ9aFUu/vcsT7ifAKhHDvUWZ9Jlk4ACfUo57 k7zInvdJs4D+oXqRbMRGlfI= =bY/y -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 5 13:26:48 2003 From: cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org (cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org) Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 08:26:48 -0500 Subject: C considered harmful: was Debian attacker may have used new exploit In-Reply-To: Message from Fraser Campbell of "Thu, 04 Dec 2003 19:36:12 EST." <200312041936.12145.fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org> References: <1070560563.10670.5.camel@rincewind.discworld> <200312041936.12145.fraser@wehave.net> Message-ID: <20031205132649.8FFE3402B@cbbrowne.com> > On December 4, 2003 12:56 pm, Marcus Brubaker wrote: > > > > You might find this article, by one of the LISP community's greats, both > > > interesting and on topic: > > > > > > http://www.paulgraham.com/javacover.html > > > > To each their own opinion but if you want to do OOP then there really > > isn't a better language out there than Java. > > Do people write real software with java or is still just web stuff? How do you define "real"? The actual successes with Java have been with "application server" software, which often represents web servers, but also other sorts of server software. The folks I work with have a whole lot of Java server software... -- let name="cbbrowne" and tld="acm.org" in String.concat "@" [name;tld];; http://cbbrowne.com/info/oses.html A Plateau is the highest form of flattery. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From matt-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 5 14:28:28 2003 From: matt-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Matthew Rice) Date: 05 Dec 2003 09:28:28 -0500 Subject: SOT: shitfs in spam trends and topics In-Reply-To: <2Q7z/ks/KfDR089yn-4YeSL8/OYKRWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org> References: <3FCC29EE.8040408@rogers.com> <20031202130036.8DF5F4054@cbbrowne.com> <2Q7z/ks/KfDR089yn@the-wire.com> Message-ID: mwilson-4YeSL8/OYKRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Mel Wilson) writes: > Two possibilities I can imagine. > > 2. Steganography. Are you suggesting that we are receiving unintelligible e-mail because some group [terrorists, fbi, cia, csis] are trying to send messages to each other. Do you supposed that they are sending a lot of them and getting the e-mail addresses wrong or that they are sending a lot of them to confuse the trail to the intended recipient? If you were to ask me, I'd say that this is similar to the book _Snow Crash_. Microsoft is sending out these seemingly unintelligible e-mails and anyone that looks at them has their brain 're-wired' into liking M$. "Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean that they aren't out to get you." TTYL, -- matthew rice starnix inc. phone: 905-771-0017 x242 thornhill, ontario, canada http://www.starnix.com professional linux services & products -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From hughreilly1-PkbjNfxxIARBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 5 15:10:46 2003 From: hughreilly1-PkbjNfxxIARBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Hugh Reilly) Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 10:10:46 -0500 Subject: SOT: shitfs in spam trends and topics Message-ID: >From: Matthew Rice >Are you suggesting that we are receiving unintelligible e-mail because some >group [terrorists, fbi, cia, csis] are trying to send messages to each >other. Do you supposed that they are sending a lot of them and getting the >e-mail addresses wrong or that they are sending a lot of them to confuse >the >trail to the intended recipient? > >If you were to ask me, I'd say that this is similar to the book _Snow >Crash_. >Microsoft is sending out these seemingly unintelligible e-mails and anyone >that looks at them has their brain 're-wired' into liking M$. > > "Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean that they aren't out > to get you." A couple of notes to feed the paranoia: 1. One of my jobs is to handle incoming customer email at the Toronto Sun. Of course, 90%+ is spam. Many of these messages contain "nonsense" verbiage, I think designed to outfox spam blocking. But reading this "nonsense" can often give the impression that the creator is not operating in a strictly mercantile role. 2. A few years ago, I presented a paper at the McLuhan Program on the "Information Ecology", wherein I described how the emerging Internet was a radically decentralizing force which was undermining traditional power structures, and that disrupting the Internet was a logical strategy for maintaining traditional power base. It seems the spam epidemic is certainly undermining the value of email. For example, I now tell Sun customers that "just because you sent the email is no guarantee that we received the email". If spam blocking becomes the norm, we can expect that 5% +/- of legitimate emails just won't get through. -Hugh _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus&pgmarket=en-ca&RU=http%3a%2f%2fjoin.msn.com%2f%3fpage%3dmisc%2fspecialoffers%26pgmarket%3den-ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cdasilva-q6EoVN9bke6w5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 5 16:19:27 2003 From: cdasilva-q6EoVN9bke6w5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org (Clive DaSilva) Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 11:19:27 -0500 Subject: KDE/Mandrake 9.1 Message-ID: <3FD0B00F.5070808@iprimus.ca> Hello Had a really weird experience yesterday. I have been running mandrake 9.1 with the stock kernel 2.4.21-013mdk, for perhaps 3 months. I read an advisory which suggested that I upgraded the kernel to 2.4.21-026mdk, (all nicely packaged by the Drake folks), as a preventative measure against some root exploits. I use KDE 3.1 as the window manager, and since I've installed this kernel, KDE sometimes doesn't come up when I login as a user (it just hangs), or it comes up and crashes within 5 minutes. I have since been using IceWM as my backup window manager. Now, I've kept the old kernel, so I have a choice of kernels to boot from. When I try to run KDE using the old kernel, it crashes too. My question is, has anyone had a similar experience like this? I could stick with IceWM for now or use another window manager like XFCE, but I'm really curious about this. Any ideas, folks ? Clive -- Clive DaSilva CMA Home Tel: 416-421-2480 Cell: 416-560-8820 Email: cdasilva-q6EoVN9bke6w5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org Mandrake Linux 9.1 Kernel 2.4.21 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 5 16:25:59 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 11:25:59 -0500 Subject: KDE/Mandrake 9.1 In-Reply-To: <3FD0B00F.5070808-q6EoVN9bke6w5LPnMra/2Q@public.gmane.org> References: <3FD0B00F.5070808@iprimus.ca> Message-ID: <20031205112559.16a7ca5d.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Fri, 05 Dec 2003 11:19:27 -0500 Clive DaSilva wrote: > Had a really weird experience yesterday. I have been running mandrake > 9.1 with the stock kernel 2.4.21-013mdk, for perhaps 3 months. > I read an advisory which suggested that I upgraded the kernel to > 2.4.21-026mdk, (all nicely packaged by the Drake folks), as a > preventative measure against some root exploits. I use KDE 3.1 as the > window manager, and since I've installed this kernel, KDE sometimes > doesn't come up when I login as a user (it just hangs), or it comes up > and crashes within 5 minutes. I have since been using IceWM as my backup > window manager. Now, I've kept the old kernel, so I have a choice of > kernels to boot from. When I try to run KDE using the old kernel, it > crashes too. I haven't seen anything like this come up on any of the Mandrake lists, but I would suggest asking as well on Expert. Do you see anything in /var/log/messages or /var/log/XFree86.0.log? It could be that KDE was compiled against the old kernel and is pitching a fit now that newer modules are being loaded, though why when you boot into the *old* kernel would hence be a mystery. -- JoeHill ++ ICQ # 280779813 Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding." -- John Kenneth Galbraith -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From matt-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 5 16:33:30 2003 From: matt-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Matthew Rice) Date: 05 Dec 2003 11:33:30 -0500 Subject: Anyone have experience with Asterisk Message-ID: Hi everyone, I'm looking to setup an Asterisk-based PBX with extensions in the office and at homes. There seems to be a lot of options on the client side [from gnophone, some cisco hardware phones, qtphone, ...]. Does anyone have a similar [or partial] setup like this? Can you offer some advice on which clients have worked best? Regards, -- matthew rice starnix inc. phone: 905-771-0017 x242 thornhill, ontario, canada http://www.starnix.com professional linux services & products -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From mwilson-4YeSL8/OYKRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 5 16:30:24 2003 From: mwilson-4YeSL8/OYKRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Mel Wilson) Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 11:30:24 -0500 Subject: SOT: shitfs in spam trends and topics References: <3FCC29EE.8040408@rogers.com> <20031202130036.8DF5F4054@cbbrowne.com> <2Q7z/ks/KfDR089yn@the-wire.com> Message-ID: In article , Matthew Rice wrote: >mwilson-4YeSL8/OYKRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Mel Wilson) writes: >> Two possibilities I can imagine. >> >> 2. Steganography. > >Are you suggesting that we are receiving unintelligible e-mail because some >group [terrorists, fbi, cia, csis] are trying to send messages to each >other. Do you supposed that they are sending a lot of them and getting the >e-mail addresses wrong or that they are sending a lot of them to confuse the >trail to the intended recipient? "Confuse the trail", yes. Suppose you have a heavy security job and you suspect that there's a criminal plan hidden in some inane message about shoes. You find that it was sent by a naive high-speed user's compromised wintel box. You find that it was sent to 200,000 different people. What do you check next? >If you were to ask me, I'd say that this is similar to the book _Snow Crash_. People mention that one a lot. Gonna have to read it. (_Cryptonomicon was good, but that has nothing to do with Neil Gaiman.) Regards. Mel. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From hughreilly1-PkbjNfxxIARBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 5 16:49:37 2003 From: hughreilly1-PkbjNfxxIARBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Hugh Reilly) Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 11:49:37 -0500 Subject: SOT: shitfs in spam trends and topics Message-ID: Just re-reading my post. To be clear, I don't mean at all to sound like I'm advocating disrupting the Internet to preserve traditional power bases. Rather, I mean to suggest that we who value democracy and responsibility through decentralization should be aware that there may be incentive for certain bad guys to undermine the Internet and its decentralizing effect. -Hugh _______________________________________________ Hugh Reilly XEN Technology Group | LinuxLab 600 Bay Street, Suite 405 Toronto ON M5R 1G6 tel: 416-204-9951 fax: 416-204-9723 email: info-2K4XOyu7qTosA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org _______________________________________________ http://www.xen.ca | http://www.linuxlab.ca >From: "Hugh Reilly" >Reply-To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org >To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org >Subject: Re: [TLUG]: SOT: shitfs in spam trends and topics >Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 10:10:46 -0500 > >>From: Matthew Rice >>Are you suggesting that we are receiving unintelligible e-mail because >>some >>group [terrorists, fbi, cia, csis] are trying to send messages to each >>other. Do you supposed that they are sending a lot of them and getting >>the >>e-mail addresses wrong or that they are sending a lot of them to confuse >>the >>trail to the intended recipient? >> >>If you were to ask me, I'd say that this is similar to the book _Snow >>Crash_. >>Microsoft is sending out these seemingly unintelligible e-mails and anyone >>that looks at them has their brain 're-wired' into liking M$. >> >> "Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean that they aren't out >> to get you." > >A couple of notes to feed the paranoia: >1. One of my jobs is to handle incoming customer email at the Toronto Sun. >Of course, 90%+ is spam. Many of these messages contain "nonsense" >verbiage, I think designed to outfox spam blocking. But reading this >"nonsense" can often give the impression that the creator is not operating >in a strictly mercantile role. > >2. A few years ago, I presented a paper at the McLuhan Program on the >"Information Ecology", wherein I described how the emerging Internet was a >radically decentralizing force which was undermining traditional power >structures, and that disrupting the Internet was a logical strategy for >maintaining traditional power base. It seems the spam epidemic is certainly >undermining the value of email. For example, I now tell Sun customers that >"just because you sent the email is no guarantee that we received the >email". If spam blocking becomes the norm, we can expect that 5% +/- of >legitimate emails just won't get through. > >-Hugh > >_________________________________________________________________ >MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* >http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus&pgmarket=en-ca&RU=http%3a%2f%2fjoin.msn.com%2f%3fpage%3dmisc%2fspecialoffers%26pgmarket%3den-ca > >-- >The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org >TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/bcomm&pgmarket=en-ca&RU=http%3a%2f%2fjoin.msn.com%2f%3fpage%3dmisc%2fspecialoffers%26pgmarket%3den-ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From tim-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 5 17:03:16 2003 From: tim-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Tim Writer) Date: 05 Dec 2003 12:03:16 -0500 Subject: KDE/Mandrake 9.1 In-Reply-To: <20031205112559.16a7ca5d.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FD0B00F.5070808@iprimus.ca> <20031205112559.16a7ca5d.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: JoeHill writes: > On Fri, 05 Dec 2003 11:19:27 -0500 > Clive DaSilva wrote: > > > Had a really weird experience yesterday. I have been running mandrake > > 9.1 with the stock kernel 2.4.21-013mdk, for perhaps 3 months. > > I read an advisory which suggested that I upgraded the kernel to > > 2.4.21-026mdk, (all nicely packaged by the Drake folks), as a > > preventative measure against some root exploits. I use KDE 3.1 as the > > window manager, and since I've installed this kernel, KDE sometimes > > doesn't come up when I login as a user (it just hangs), or it comes up > > and crashes within 5 minutes. I have since been using IceWM as my backup > > window manager. Now, I've kept the old kernel, so I have a choice of > > kernels to boot from. When I try to run KDE using the old kernel, it > > crashes too. > > I haven't seen anything like this come up on any of the Mandrake lists, but I > would suggest asking as well on Expert. > > Do you see anything in /var/log/messages or /var/log/XFree86.0.log? > > It could be that KDE was compiled against the old kernel and is pitching a fit > now that newer modules are being loaded, though why when you boot into the *old* > kernel would hence be a mystery. Someone here had a similar problem using a new motherboard with a not yet well supported video adapter. Only the VESA driver worked but KDE kept crashing. Could the new Mandrake kernel have some graphics related drivers that could be triggering the problem? I'm thinking particulary about things like DRM. Use lsmod to compare the modules loaded with the old kernel against those loaded with the new kernel. -- tim writer starnix inc. 905.771.0017 ext. 225 thornhill, ontario, canada http://www.starnix.com professional linux services & products -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cdasilva-q6EoVN9bke6w5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 5 17:08:57 2003 From: cdasilva-q6EoVN9bke6w5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org (Clive DaSilva) Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 12:08:57 -0500 Subject: KDE/Mandrake 9.1 In-Reply-To: References: <3FD0B00F.5070808@iprimus.ca> <20031205112559.16a7ca5d.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <3FD0BBA9.9030208@iprimus.ca> Tim Writer wrote: >JoeHill writes: > > > >>On Fri, 05 Dec 2003 11:19:27 -0500 >>Clive DaSilva wrote: >> >> >> >>>Had a really weird experience yesterday. I have been running mandrake >>>9.1 with the stock kernel 2.4.21-013mdk, for perhaps 3 months. >>>I read an advisory which suggested that I upgraded the kernel to >>>2.4.21-026mdk, (all nicely packaged by the Drake folks), as a >>>preventative measure against some root exploits. I use KDE 3.1 as the >>>window manager, and since I've installed this kernel, KDE sometimes >>>doesn't come up when I login as a user (it just hangs), or it comes up >>>and crashes within 5 minutes. I have since been using IceWM as my backup >>>window manager. Now, I've kept the old kernel, so I have a choice of >>>kernels to boot from. When I try to run KDE using the old kernel, it >>>crashes too. >>> >>> >>I haven't seen anything like this come up on any of the Mandrake lists, but I >>would suggest asking as well on Expert. >> >>Do you see anything in /var/log/messages or /var/log/XFree86.0.log? >> >>It could be that KDE was compiled against the old kernel and is pitching a fit >>now that newer modules are being loaded, though why when you boot into the *old* >>kernel would hence be a mystery. >> >> > >Someone here had a similar problem using a new motherboard with a not yet >well supported video adapter. Only the VESA driver worked but KDE kept >crashing. Could the new Mandrake kernel have some graphics related drivers >that could be triggering the problem? I'm thinking particulary about things >like DRM. Use lsmod to compare the modules loaded with the old kernel >against those loaded with the new kernel. > > > Thanks Tim, Will try out some of those suggestions Clive -- Clive DaSilva CMA Home Tel: 416-421-2480 Cell: 416-560-8820 Email: cdasilva-q6EoVN9bke6w5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org Mandrake Linux 9.1 Kernel 2.4.21 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 5 19:10:57 2003 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter L. Peres) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 21:10:57 +0200 (IST) Subject: SOT: shitfs in spam trends and topics In-Reply-To: <2Q7z/ks/KfDR089yn-4YeSL8/OYKRWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org> References: <3FCC29EE.8040408@rogers.com> <20031202130036.8DF5F4054@cbbrowne.com> <2Q7z/ks/KfDR089yn@the-wire.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 4 Dec 2003, Mel Wilson wrote: > Two possibilities I can imagine. > > 1. Spammers acutely aware that they are wrong, and defying > the world to catch them, even if it means losing a sale. > > 2. Steganography. And a third: bad setup of the spam mailer (which I understand has some special settings that get updated by mail from 'mother' from time to time). I have never seen a spam mailer so consider this hearsay. Some spam I get has so bad a MIME encapsulation that it appears as plain text. Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 5 19:13:57 2003 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter L. Peres) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 21:13:57 +0200 (IST) Subject: dangerous spam Message-ID: I just got spam saying I should update my paypal account with the supplied 'secure' application, and attached a file named www.paypal.com.scr. Wonderful social engineering (the src suggests secure ?!) Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From kmastin-PzQIwG9Jn9VAFePFGvp55w at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 5 19:28:10 2003 From: kmastin-PzQIwG9Jn9VAFePFGvp55w at public.gmane.org (Keith Mastin) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 14:28:10 -0500 (EST) Subject: dangerous spam In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4110.216.138.194.32.1070652490.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> > > I just got spam saying I should update my paypal account with the > supplied 'secure' application, and attached a file named > www.paypal.com.scr. > Wonderful social engineering (the src suggests secure ?!) .scr is an executable extension for a screensaver, most likely a virus or trojan for windoh$. -- Keith -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From skuznets-WRMZ5ucGVl4BXFe83j6qeQ at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 5 21:39:01 2003 From: skuznets-WRMZ5ucGVl4BXFe83j6qeQ at public.gmane.org (Sergey Kuznetsov) Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 16:39:01 -0500 Subject: OT: ADSL access. Message-ID: <200312051639.01317.skuznets@blueprint.org> Hi guys, Sorry for OT but I just curious. I want to make some research what kind of equipment Bell uses on their side for ADSL. Also I curious if Bell, Sprint, ATT Canada shares the same equipment. Could you give me a favor, and send to me ( or to here ) output of command : pppoe -A PS: It just sends the PPPoE PADI request to the BELL's ( or whatever your phone line provider is ) , gets the PPPoE PADO answer and prints it on the screen. -- All the Best! ----------------- Sergey Kuznetsov Senior Software Developer Blueprint Initiative Samuel Lunenfeld Research Institute at Mount Sinai Hospital -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 5 20:07:45 2003 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter L. Peres) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 22:07:45 +0200 (IST) Subject: dangerous spam In-Reply-To: <4110.216.138.194.32.1070652490.squirrel-16UnNR4aCrhlws70yGkXPA@public.gmane.org> References: <4110.216.138.194.32.1070652490.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, 5 Dec 2003, Keith Mastin wrote: > > I just got spam saying I should update my paypal account with the > > supplied 'secure' application, and attached a file named > > www.paypal.com.scr. > > Wonderful social engineering (the src suggests secure ?!) > > .scr is an executable extension for a screensaver, most likely a virus or > trojan for windoh$. I know. I guess everyone knows this. Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 5 20:08:40 2003 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter L. Peres) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 22:08:40 +0200 (IST) Subject: M$ to license FAT Message-ID: As the title says. Impact on Linux ? Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From kmastin-PzQIwG9Jn9VAFePFGvp55w at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 5 19:50:34 2003 From: kmastin-PzQIwG9Jn9VAFePFGvp55w at public.gmane.org (Keith Mastin) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 14:50:34 -0500 (EST) Subject: SOT: shitfs in spam trends and topics In-Reply-To: <2Q7z/ks/KfDR089yn-4YeSL8/OYKRWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org> References: <3FCC29EE.8040408@rogers.com><20031202130036.8DF5F4054@cbbrowne.com> <2Q7z/ks/KfDR089yn@the-wire.com> Message-ID: <4273.216.138.194.32.1070653834.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> > In article <20031202130036.8DF5F4054-xzRQuAxiFLNWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org>, cbbrowne at acm.org > wrote: >>The odd trend I have been seeing is for there to be large numbers of >>spam messages that seem totally futile. There's no way of contacting >>them to buy their services. No URLs. No valid return address. No way >>for the message to be of any value whatever, supposing I _did_ want to >>increase my breasts by a couple of sizes. > > Two possibilities I can imagine. > > 1. Spammers acutely aware that they are wrong, and defying > the world to catch them, even if it means losing a sale. > > 2. Steganography. You forgot 3. 3. By attempting to respond to them, you have just varified your email address so they can sell that email address to other spammers. -- Keith -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From kmastin-PzQIwG9Jn9VAFePFGvp55w at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 5 20:03:06 2003 From: kmastin-PzQIwG9Jn9VAFePFGvp55w at public.gmane.org (Keith Mastin) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 15:03:06 -0500 (EST) Subject: OT job offer Message-ID: <4325.216.138.194.32.1070654586.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> I have a local (Toronto) client looking for an AutoCAD operator. The client is an interior design firm with a number of large clients (hotels, office buildings, etc.). I did not discuss salary, but my guess from the length of time that their employees have been with the company that it will be substantial for the right person who fits in with the rest of the team. Contact Paul Maggiacomo at TannerHill Associates, (416)429-1600 for an appointment. If I mention Linux, will this make it legal for the list? Okay, they don't use linux for anything there. :) -- Keith -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 5 20:26:05 2003 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter L. Peres) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 22:26:05 +0200 (IST) Subject: KNOPPIX closes because Europe passes software IP laws Message-ID: http://www.knopper.net/knoppix/ Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From tlug-Xk30rxnpnVyw5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 5 20:29:59 2003 From: tlug-Xk30rxnpnVyw5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org (Matthew M. Gamble) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 15:29:59 -0500 Subject: Anyone have experience with Asterisk References: Message-ID: <01eb01c3bb6e$8ddc7d60$0702a8c0@echoonline.echoon.net> We're using Cisco ATA186's and Grandstream phones, both of which are working perfectly. We also have a channel bank and have physical phones connected to the same Asterisk box, and all of them are working together - it's a really powerful system once you get it going. We found that most soft clients were good (Xten was the best) but our users didn't like having to use a softphone. Most people like the Cisco ATA, because it lets them use a real, physical phone and 'feels' more like a real phone than a SIP phone. For outbound lines, we have several setups - from using physical FXO's from Bell to using pure SIP to our phone company. If you'd like any advice / configuration help, just drop me a line and I can help you out. Regards, M. Gamble ----- Original Message ----- From: "Matthew Rice" To: Cc: Sent: Friday, December 05, 2003 11:33 AM Subject: [TLUG]: Anyone have experience with Asterisk > Hi everyone, > > I'm looking to setup an Asterisk-based PBX with extensions in the office and > at homes. There seems to be a lot of options on the client side [from > gnophone, some cisco hardware phones, qtphone, ...]. > > Does anyone have a similar [or partial] setup like this? Can you offer some > advice on which clients have worked best? > > Regards, > -- > matthew rice starnix inc. > phone: 905-771-0017 x242 thornhill, ontario, canada > http://www.starnix.com professional linux services & products > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 5 21:22:12 2003 From: cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org (cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org) Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 16:22:12 -0500 Subject: dangerous spam In-Reply-To: Message from "Keith Mastin" of "Fri, 05 Dec 2003 14:28:10 EST." <4110.216.138.194.32.1070652490.squirrel-16UnNR4aCrhlws70yGkXPA@public.gmane.org> References: <4110.216.138.194.32.1070652490.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> Message-ID: <20031205212213.531AD404E@cbbrowne.com> > > > > I just got spam saying I should update my paypal account with the > > supplied 'secure' application, and attached a file named > > www.paypal.com.scr. > > Wonderful social engineering (the src suggests secure ?!) > > .scr is an executable extension for a screensaver, most likely a virus or > trojan for windoh$. I always thought ".scr" stood for "script." Was I wrong? -- "cbbrowne","@","ntlug.org" http://cbbrowne.com/info/spiritual.html "I am returning this otherwise good typing paper to you because someone has printed gibberish all over it and put your name at the top." --English Professor, Ohio University -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 5 21:26:51 2003 From: cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org (cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org) Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 16:26:51 -0500 Subject: M$ to license FAT In-Reply-To: Message from "Peter L. Peres" of "Fri, 05 Dec 2003 22:08:40 +0200." References: Message-ID: <20031205212652.E63A0402B@cbbrowne.com> > As the title says. Impact on Linux ? If the claims are true, that there are "live" patents still in place on FAT, then it is conceivable that there might be patent infringments, or at least places where MSFT could _claim_ that there are. Of course, FAT is pretty much derivative of CP/M filesystems, so it is more than likely that any conceivable patents would have to have been filed in the '80s, and thus would have, at most, 3 more years to run. -- output = reverse("gro.gultn" "@" "enworbbc") http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/linuxdistributions.html "He may look like an idiot, and he may sound like an idiot, but don't let him fool you. He really is an idiot." -- Mark Twain -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jason-2F8E0OLjuh154TAoqtyWWQ at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 5 21:30:09 2003 From: jason-2F8E0OLjuh154TAoqtyWWQ at public.gmane.org (Jason Slaughter) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 16:30:09 -0500 Subject: SOT: shitfs in spam trends and topics In-Reply-To: References: <3FCC29EE.8040408@rogers.com> <2Q7z/ks/KfDR089yn@the-wire.com> Message-ID: <200312051630.09577.jason@slaughter.com> > And a third: bad setup of the spam mailer (which I understand has some > special settings that get updated by mail from 'mother' from time to > time). I have never seen a spam mailer so consider this hearsay. Some > spam I get has so bad a MIME encapsulation that it appears as plain text. I think you'll find this is likely. I work for a company that's been doing a lot of research in to anti-spam techniques as well as research into what kind of spam software there is out there. As a result I've seen a lot of spam software lately. It's surreal to see software with checkbox labels like "optimize against SpamAssassin" and "avoid AOL filters." I've learned that while spamming software makes sending filter-avoiding spam easier than ever, it's quite hard to use for many people, especially the intellectually devoid spammer. One thing you will find after studying spam for a while is that spammers have *terrible* quality control. I've seen so many spam that have been sent out with things like {random_text}} that had the first { been {{, would have inserted random filter-avoiding text. I think the same goes for a complete lack of URL. For instance, it seems some spammers don't seem to understand that if somebody gets their mail, that person can't just hit "reply" and put in an order! They're using a fancy program that creates a random email address, and they have no concept as to what their program is really doing. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 5 21:43:10 2003 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter L. Peres) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 23:43:10 +0200 (IST) Subject: dangerous spam In-Reply-To: <20031205212213.531AD404E-xzRQuAxiFLNWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org> References: <4110.216.138.194.32.1070652490.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> <20031205212213.531AD404E@cbbrowne.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 5 Dec 2003, cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org wrote: > I always thought ".scr" stood for "script." > > > > Was I wrong? People who use Emacs as mailer (like you) are exempt from suspicion ;-) Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 5 21:49:30 2003 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter L. Peres) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 23:49:30 +0200 (IST) Subject: M$ to license FAT In-Reply-To: <20031205212652.E63A0402B-xzRQuAxiFLNWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org> References: <20031205212652.E63A0402B@cbbrowne.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 5 Dec 2003, cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org wrote: > > As the title says. Impact on Linux ? > > If the claims are true, that there are "live" patents still in place on > FAT, then it is conceivable that there might be patent infringments, or > at least places where MSFT could _claim_ that there are. > > Of course, FAT is pretty much derivative of CP/M filesystems, so it is > more than likely that any conceivable patents would have to have been > filed in the '80s, and thus would have, at most, 3 more years to run. That sounds enough to me. On another list someone did check and the current patents are on long filenames. If you want to read it, here: http://www.microsoft.com/mscorp/ip/tech/fat.asp also on this page: http://swpat.ffii.org/archive/quotes/index.en.html there is a reference to the creator of virtualdub having a cold call from borg to drop ASF support. And he did. DivX maker is scared. Take a minute and read that page if you haven't already, at least the headlines. The borg seems to be very active now. It seems to be related to that case of scorn. Lacking a winning card, why not throw the whole pack randomly and hope they drown ? Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jzygmont-tEQKYFGiemxAYG7eUwYNkWD2FQJk+8+b at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 5 22:11:36 2003 From: jzygmont-tEQKYFGiemxAYG7eUwYNkWD2FQJk+8+b at public.gmane.org (Justin Zygmont) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 17:11:36 -0500 (EST) Subject: KNOPPIX closes because Europe passes software IP laws In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: what is so useful about this distro anyways, running from a CD is way too slow, and not at all feasable for much of anything except maybe testing to see how it is. On Fri, 5 Dec 2003, Peter L. Peres wrote: > > http://www.knopper.net/knoppix/ > > Peter > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 5 22:19:58 2003 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter L. Peres) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 00:19:58 +0200 (IST) Subject: european patent horror gallery Message-ID: Not all in English but I feel that you will manage: http://swpat.ffii.org/patents/samples/index.en.html Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From matt-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 5 22:28:52 2003 From: matt-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Matthew Rice) Date: 05 Dec 2003 17:28:52 -0500 Subject: KNOPPIX closes because Europe passes software IP laws In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Justin Zygmont writes: > what is so useful about this distro anyways, running from a CD is way too > slow, and not at all feasable for much of anything except maybe testing to > see how it is. ...or getting more tools for recovery than can fit on tomsrtbt... ...or for some thin clients [although you could use PXE and stuff]... ...or for demonstrating Linux to people without trashing/repartitioning their hard drives... ...or you can still use local disk/USB memory sticks for data storage and leave the knoppix as the easily distributed OS... ...or that cool knoppix+OpenMosix clustering distro... ...or... Yeah, you're right. Kind of useless. I didn't see on the homepage that they shut down, though. Just that the EU patents concern _could_ cause companies and orgs [like knoppix] to shut down. > > > On Fri, 5 Dec 2003, Peter L. Peres wrote: > > > > > http://www.knopper.net/knoppix/ > > > > Peter > > -- > > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > > > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- matthew rice starnix inc. phone: 905-771-0017 x242 thornhill, ontario, canada http://www.starnix.com professional linux services & products -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 5 22:36:21 2003 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter L. Peres) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 00:36:21 +0200 (IST) Subject: .eu laws: rofl Message-ID: Check out EP1249000 on this page: http://swpat.ffii.org/patents/samples/index.en.html Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From roulton623-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 5 22:38:26 2003 From: roulton623-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Stephen Oulton) Date: 05 Dec 2003 17:38:26 -0500 Subject: Hello Every One Message-ID: <1070663906.2986.6.camel@CPE0080c6f2a89b-CM00003940c461> Hi I'm Stephen Oulton I have just changed my system to Red Hat 9.0 and I am having trouble with things running because of the hosts file. It suggests that I add CPE0080c6f2a89b-CM00003940c461 to the file. I have done that and I still get the same error when I log on to the system. Does any one have any suggestions? Thanks in advance Stephen Oulton -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 5 22:43:24 2003 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter L. Peres) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 00:43:24 +0200 (IST) Subject: KNOPPIX closes because Europe passes software IP laws In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 5 Dec 2003, Justin Zygmont wrote: > what is so useful about this distro anyways, running from a CD is way too > slow, and not at all feasable for much of anything except maybe testing to > see how it is. It's an excellent demo that I do not hesiatate to give to windoze users who are nagging me about 'linux being text mode' and 'having no graphics' and being 'strange' and having 'no office applications'. Knoppix kind of shuts them up rapidly on all these points. Also it is possible to hack (I mean customize) knoppix so you can run about with *your* favorite apps on a cd and use them where you want, without installing anything. Peter > On Fri, 5 Dec 2003, Peter L. Peres wrote: > > > > > http://www.knopper.net/knoppix/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 5 22:45:56 2003 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter L. Peres) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 00:45:56 +0200 (IST) Subject: KNOPPIX closes because Europe passes software IP laws In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 5 Dec 2003, Matthew Rice wrote: > patents concern _could_ cause companies and orgs [like knoppix] to shut down. That page should have contained download links and such. It does not (or not anymore). Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 5 23:02:14 2003 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter L. Peres) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 01:02:14 +0200 (IST) Subject: KNOPPIX closes because Europe passes software IP laws In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 6 Dec 2003, Peter L. Peres wrote: > > On Sat, 5 Dec 2003, Matthew Rice wrote: > > > patents concern _could_ cause companies and orgs [like knoppix] to shut down. > > That page should have contained download links and such. It does not (or > not anymore). And I want to add that this is the first Linux company that pulled a linux product for fear of patents. (I secretly hope that they did it for bandwidth reasons and low returns reasons although knoppix certainly put a previously unheard-of company on the map). Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 5 23:08:31 2003 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter L. Peres) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 01:08:31 +0200 (IST) Subject: KNOPPIX closes because Europe passes software IP laws In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Ok, the old links are still available, I was wrong. Sorry. The info on that page shocked me into posting early while I was reading something else. Knoppix does not yet close because of .eu software patents. Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 5 23:21:51 2003 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 18:21:51 -0500 Subject: M$ to license FAT In-Reply-To: <20031205212652.E63A0402B-xzRQuAxiFLNWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org> References: <20031205212652.E63A0402B@cbbrowne.com> Message-ID: <3FD1130F.5000009@rogers.com> cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org wrote: >>As the title says. Impact on Linux ? > > > If the claims are true, that there are "live" patents still in place on > FAT, then it is conceivable that there might be patent infringments, or > at least places where MSFT could _claim_ that there are. > > Of course, FAT is pretty much derivative of CP/M filesystems, so it is > more than likely that any conceivable patents would have to have been > filed in the '80s, and thus would have, at most, 3 more years to run. The only place I use FAT, is on systems that also run Windows. So, if those partitions are created by Windows and just happen to be accessed by Linux, would that be a patent violation? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 5 23:31:37 2003 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter L. Peres) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 01:31:37 +0200 (IST) Subject: another linux: designed to fit on a business card cd Message-ID: http://www.lnx-bbc.org/ Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 5 23:38:04 2003 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter L. Peres) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 01:38:04 +0200 (IST) Subject: M$ to license FAT In-Reply-To: <3FD1130F.5000009-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <20031205212652.E63A0402B@cbbrowne.com> <3FD1130F.5000009@rogers.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 5 Dec 2003, James Knott wrote: > cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org wrote: > >>As the title says. Impact on Linux ? > > > > > > If the claims are true, that there are "live" patents still in place on > > FAT, then it is conceivable that there might be patent infringments, or > > at least places where MSFT could _claim_ that there are. > > > > Of course, FAT is pretty much derivative of CP/M filesystems, so it is > > more than likely that any conceivable patents would have to have been > > filed in the '80s, and thus would have, at most, 3 more years to run. > > The only place I use FAT, is on systems that also run Windows. So, if > those partitions are created by Windows and just happen to be accessed > by Linux, would that be a patent violation? In theory the code in Linux that allows you to access them is in breach (because a software patent grants them control on a file format and any method related to it) but ianal. I think that this has to do with recent advances in linux that allow r/w access to ntfs. Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From aacton-B71PBEe7S7Y at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 5 23:38:42 2003 From: aacton-B71PBEe7S7Y at public.gmane.org (aacton) Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 18:38:42 -0500 Subject: M$ to license FAT In-Reply-To: <3FD1130F.5000009-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <20031205212652.E63A0402B@cbbrowne.com> <3FD1130F.5000009@rogers.com> Message-ID: <1070667520.2157.1.camel@gamma373-365.portable.resnet.yorku.ca> On Fri, 2003-12-05 at 18:21, James Knott wrote: > The only place I use FAT, is on systems that also run Windows. I don't think it's hard drives that will be the problem, it's that most digital cameras, USB key drives, and MP3 players use FAT, so it will just inflate the prices of these items. I'm sure there are free alternatives that are just as good, but do you think the maker of a $600 camera will care? Austin -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 5 23:54:22 2003 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter L. Peres) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 01:54:22 +0200 (IST) Subject: seek: formal state machine description language Message-ID: I would like to learn such a language. Does such a thing exist ? I am not looking for the graphical design kind of thing, but for (machine) parseable textual representation. It must have provisions for synchronised state machines (via messages or tokens or whatever). One way is to write one lex grammar to represent each state machine, with the tokens recognized by lex being the messages, and productions emitting tokens for the 'other' machines besides doing their own work. The tokens need not be strings. More formal than this ? Petri nets ? What else ? Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 6 00:07:36 2003 From: davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (David J Patrick) Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 19:07:36 -0500 Subject: KNOPPIX closes because Europe passes software IP laws In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3FD11DC8.4090602@sympatico.ca> Justin Zygmont wrote: >what is so useful about this distro anyways, running from a CD is way too >slow, and not at all feasable for much of anything except maybe testing to >see how it is. > > > Are you MAD ? Knoppix features brilliant hardware detection, compression technologies and a solid set of apps that have done more to introduce linux to new users than any other distro. With a knoppix disc and a USB keydrive you could sit down at almost any machine and fire up a rich and solid computing environment. If it's too slow, you can easily install it to HD, if the bundled apps don't suit your use, you can easily remaster with your choices. With that same disk you could transform your office lan into an OpenMosix cluster in under half an hour. As a rescue disc, it has pulled my cherries out of the fire more times than I care to mention, for both Windoze and linux boxen. get ahold of yourself man ! ;-) djp -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 6 00:12:00 2003 From: fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Fraser Campbell) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 19:12:00 -0500 Subject: KNOPPIX closes because Europe passes software IP laws In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200312051912.00348.fraser@wehave.net> On December 5, 2003 05:11 pm, Justin Zygmont wrote: > what is so useful about this distro anyways, running from a CD is way too > slow, and not at all feasable for much of anything except maybe testing to > see how it is. 2GB of software fitting in the palm of your hand (well a big hand), that can be run at will on any PC (with or without an OS) isn't useful. How else would you partition up a couple of disks, raid them, format them and run amrecover across the network to reinstall your server after a failed disk in little over an hour? -- Fraser Campbell http://www.wehave.net/ Georgetown, Ontario, Canada Debian GNU/Linux -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 6 00:22:38 2003 From: fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Fraser Campbell) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 19:22:38 -0500 Subject: C considered harmful: was Debian attacker may have used new exploit In-Reply-To: <20031205132649.8FFE3402B-xzRQuAxiFLNWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org> References: <200312041936.12145.fraser@wehave.net> <20031205132649.8FFE3402B@cbbrowne.com> Message-ID: <200312051922.38123.fraser@wehave.net> On December 5, 2003 08:26 am, cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org wrote: > > Do people write real software with java or is still just web stuff? > > How do you define "real"? Things like a database servers, web servers, web browsers, email clients, office suites, cad programs, desktop publishing, multimedia processing, games (?), device drivers, etc. It seems to me that java is mostly used as a glue language where there's lots of other choices (perhaps python or perl). -- Fraser Campbell http://www.wehave.net/ Georgetown, Ontario, Canada Debian GNU/Linux -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From Kpanchoo-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 6 02:28:54 2003 From: Kpanchoo-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Kerry Panchoo) Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 21:28:54 -0500 Subject: twin wan router Message-ID: <3FD13EE6.1090209@rogers.com> hi, i just added a twin router to my network-- xincom XC-DPG402, its got a few cool features including load balancing- anyway i have rogers hi speed internet (up to 4.0Mbps) pro cable and Bell business internet high speed DSL (up to 3.0Mpbs)- together it runs an office of about handles a dynamic DNS with moderate usage. Its been running well so far-- i've been watching the speeds of the two connections-- rogers is pretty amazing-- but for office use, the DSL looks to be a pretty good backup. Kerry -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jzygmont-tEQKYFGiemxAYG7eUwYNkWD2FQJk+8+b at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 6 02:29:22 2003 From: jzygmont-tEQKYFGiemxAYG7eUwYNkWD2FQJk+8+b at public.gmane.org (Justin Zygmont) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 21:29:22 -0500 (EST) Subject: KNOPPIX closes because Europe passes software IP laws In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Yeah, you're right. Kind of useless. heh, suse and others offer an live demo CD, but not the ISOs. This just seems similar to me. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 6 02:44:03 2003 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 21:44:03 -0500 Subject: KNOPPIX closes because Europe passes software IP laws In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20031206024403.GA2686@node1.opengeometry.net> On Fri, Dec 05, 2003 at 09:29:22PM -0500, Justin Zygmont wrote: > > Yeah, you're right. Kind of useless. > > heh, suse and others offer an live demo CD, but not the ISOs. This just > seems similar to me. Slackware had "live CD" since the beginning of time. But, do they get any credit? -- William Park, Open Geometry Consulting, Linux solution for data management and processing. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From aacton-B71PBEe7S7Y at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 6 02:45:15 2003 From: aacton-B71PBEe7S7Y at public.gmane.org (Austin Acton) Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 21:45:15 -0500 Subject: KNOPPIX closes because Europe passes software IP laws In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1070678715.2372.0.camel@gamma373-365.portable.resnet.yorku.ca> On Fri, 2003-12-05 at 21:29, Justin Zygmont wrote: > heh, suse and others offer an live demo CD, but not the ISOs. This just > seems similar to me. All the more reason to use MandrakeMove, right? ;-) http://www.mandrakesoft.com/products/mandrakemove/ Austin -- Austin Acton Synthetic Organic Chemist, Teaching Assistant, Ph.D. Candidate Department of Chemistry, York University, Toronto MandrakeLinux Volunteer Developer, homepage: www.groundstate.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jzygmont-tEQKYFGiemxAYG7eUwYNkWD2FQJk+8+b at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 6 02:54:08 2003 From: jzygmont-tEQKYFGiemxAYG7eUwYNkWD2FQJk+8+b at public.gmane.org (Justin Zygmont) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 21:54:08 -0500 (EST) Subject: KNOPPIX closes because Europe passes software IP laws In-Reply-To: <1070678715.2372.0.camel-33sJirT1wKzlb5+wx7kmt/BjuwtQqDz/bwi28uEu5RN+FfftCXEu2Q@public.gmane.org> References: <1070678715.2372.0.camel@gamma373-365.portable.resnet.yorku.ca> Message-ID: ya, nice. On Fri, 5 Dec 2003, Austin Acton wrote: > On Fri, 2003-12-05 at 21:29, Justin Zygmont wrote: > > heh, suse and others offer an live demo CD, but not the ISOs. This just > > seems similar to me. > > All the more reason to use MandrakeMove, right? ;-) > http://www.mandrakesoft.com/products/mandrakemove/ > > Austin > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 6 05:06:59 2003 From: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 00:06:59 -0500 (EST) Subject: KNOPPIX closes because Europe passes software IP laws In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 5 Dec 2003, Justin Zygmont wrote: > what is so useful about this distro anyways, running from a CD is way too > slow, and not at all feasable for much of anything except maybe testing to > see how it is. In any case I can't see any evidence they have closed. The warning about Euro patent law has been on their page for months. http://www.knoppix.net/ looks alive and well. Rob -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From marc-bbkyySd1vPWsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 6 06:27:43 2003 From: marc-bbkyySd1vPWsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Marc Lijour (Professeur d'Informatique)) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 01:27:43 -0500 Subject: M$ to license FAT In-Reply-To: <3FD1130F.5000009-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <20031205212652.E63A0402B@cbbrowne.com> <3FD1130F.5000009@rogers.com> Message-ID: <200312060127.43917.marc@lijour.net> Le 5 D?cembre 2003 18:21, James Knott a ?crit : > cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org wrote: > >>As the title says. Impact on Linux ? > > > > If the claims are true, that there are "live" patents still in place on > > FAT, then it is conceivable that there might be patent infringments, or > > at least places where MSFT could _claim_ that there are. > > > > Of course, FAT is pretty much derivative of CP/M filesystems, so it is > > more than likely that any conceivable patents would have to have been > > filed in the '80s, and thus would have, at most, 3 more years to run. > > The only place I use FAT, is on systems that also run Windows. So, if > those partitions are created by Windows and just happen to be accessed > by Linux, would that be a patent violation? I heard that the swap filesystem is build from FAT. Is that true? > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From marc-bbkyySd1vPWsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 6 06:39:24 2003 From: marc-bbkyySd1vPWsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Marc Lijour (Professeur d'Informatique)) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 01:39:24 -0500 Subject: european patent horror gallery In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200312060139.24797.marc@lijour.net> Le 5 D?cembre 2003 17:19, Peter L. Peres a ?crit : > Not all in English but I feel that you will manage: > > http://swpat.ffii.org/patents/samples/index.en.html > > Peter > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml Other links: http://eurolinux.org/ http://www.aful.org/index.html -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 6 10:12:30 2003 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter L. Peres) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 12:12:30 +0200 (IST) Subject: KNOPPIX closes because Europe passes software IP laws In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 6 Dec 2003, Robert Brockway wrote: > In any case I can't see any evidence they have closed. The warning about > Euro patent law has been on their page for months. > > http://www.knoppix.net/ looks alive and well. Yes but it was new to me (why don't they put a date on pages like this ?! - I love to find pages with 'urgent action required' - posted in 1998)) and I got fooled by the small link to knoppix inside it. The page I am referring to is: http://www.knopper.net/knoppix/ which is the url the live cd sends you to. Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 6 12:40:08 2003 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2003 07:40:08 -0500 Subject: M$ to license FAT In-Reply-To: <200312060127.43917.marc-bbkyySd1vPWsTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org> References: <20031205212652.E63A0402B@cbbrowne.com> <3FD1130F.5000009@rogers.com> <200312060127.43917.marc@lijour.net> Message-ID: <3FD1CE28.9070307@rogers.com> Marc Lijour (Professeur d'Informatique) wrote: > Le 5 D?cembre 2003 18:21, James Knott a ?crit : > >>cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org wrote: >> >>>>As the title says. Impact on Linux ? >>> >>>If the claims are true, that there are "live" patents still in place on >>>FAT, then it is conceivable that there might be patent infringments, or >>>at least places where MSFT could _claim_ that there are. >>> >>>Of course, FAT is pretty much derivative of CP/M filesystems, so it is >>>more than likely that any conceivable patents would have to have been >>>filed in the '80s, and thus would have, at most, 3 more years to run. >> >>The only place I use FAT, is on systems that also run Windows. So, if >>those partitions are created by Windows and just happen to be accessed >>by Linux, would that be a patent violation? > > > I heard that the swap filesystem is build from FAT. Is that true? I doubt it. A swap partiton doesn't need a files system. All the space is available for use. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 6 13:31:30 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 08:31:30 -0500 Subject: Istop and Reply-To Message-ID: <20031206083130.4ab4f9a2.joehill@sympatico.ca> I've got someone on another list claiming that Istop users *must* use a "reply-to" setting in their mailer as a matter of policy. Can any Istop users confirm or deny this? -- JoeHill ++ ICQ # 280779813 Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "I have the South in front of me and the bankers behind me -- and for my country, I fear the bankers most."-- Abraham Lincoln -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 6 14:09:37 2003 From: fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Fraser Campbell) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 09:09:37 -0500 Subject: Istop and Reply-To In-Reply-To: <20031206083130.4ab4f9a2.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <20031206083130.4ab4f9a2.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <200312060909.37765.fraser@wehave.net> On December 6, 2003 08:31 am, JoeHill wrote: > I've got someone on another list claiming that Istop users *must* use a > "reply-to" setting in their mailer as a matter of policy. > > Can any Istop users confirm or deny this? I doubt they'd try to enforce something quite so ridiculous. I've never talked to their support department except in the first few days when Bell decided to screw with my line. I send my email through their server using my own domain name, have no problems and never use reply-to. -- Fraser Campbell http://www.wehave.net/ Georgetown, Ontario, Canada Debian GNU/Linux -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 6 14:28:55 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 09:28:55 -0500 Subject: Istop and Reply-To In-Reply-To: <200312060909.37765.fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org> References: <20031206083130.4ab4f9a2.joehill@sympatico.ca> <200312060909.37765.fraser@wehave.net> Message-ID: <20031206092855.02326ec6.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Sat, 6 Dec 2003 09:09:37 -0500 Fraser Campbell wrote: > > I've got someone on another list claiming that Istop users *must* use a > > "reply-to" setting in their mailer as a matter of policy. > > > > Can any Istop users confirm or deny this? > > I doubt they'd try to enforce something quite so ridiculous. I've never > talked to their support department except in the first few days when Bell > decided to screw with my line. I send my email through their server using my > own domain name, have no problems and never use reply-to. Well, this person is claiming that, due to the fact that IStop uses "a lot of SPAM filtering systems", they have to set a "reply to" or they will somehow "lose e-mail". Setting a "reply-to" for mailing lists is a major headache, and this person refuses to comply with mailing list etiquette. Oh well, whatcha gonna do, there's always one... -- JoeHill ++ ICQ # 280779813 Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." -- Hunter S. Thompson -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From kru_tch-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 6 15:33:26 2003 From: kru_tch-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (Steve A.) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 10:33:26 -0500 Subject: Debian attacker may have used new exploit In-Reply-To: References: <20031203002229.4052310b.rufmetal@eol.ca> <20031203052256.1fd67e8a.joehill@sympatico.ca> <20031203082437.E877@algate.perlwolf.com> <20031203074608.2c2b1be1.joehill@sympatico.ca> <20031203091610.F877@algate.perlwolf.com> <20031203085917.05bc6da3.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <20031206153326.GG27095@barnyard.sweetpig.dyndns.org> On Wed, Dec 03, 2003 at 09:59:43AM -0500 or thereabouts, Robert Brockway wrote: > On Wed, 3 Dec 2003, JoeHill wrote: > > > Again, facts and reality fly in the face of this argument. Hackers are > > usually, if not always, aware of these vulnerabilities before the > > security "establishment", and certainly before software designers can > > come up with a > > Years in the security arena make me disagree with this statement. > > Most "Hackers" (I prefer the term Crackers but there you go) are > script-kiddies. The number of Black Hats (people who are actually serious > crackers in their own right) is, and has always been, very small. Far > smaller than the security establishment. > > Most exploits discovered these days are found by those who launch a > concerted effort to detect them. By sheer number and amount of effort > most of the people who discover exploits are in the security establishment > and are not Black Hats. If you had followed the news of the Debian exploit, you will erealize that it was a kernel exploit, that could only have been done, by a very experienced Black Hat. This was no script kiddie, and the Debian Project takes security very seriously. The fact that the attack was discovered within hours, lends testatment to that. I think you should probably be directing your critique to the kernel developers, whom thought that it wasn't likely someone would use the bug to exploit systems. I guess they were wrong eh? I'm just catching up on my reading, apologies if this is mentioned further down the thread. -- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From anton-F0u+EriZ6ihBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 6 16:37:42 2003 From: anton-F0u+EriZ6ihBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Anton Markov) Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2003 11:37:42 -0500 Subject: Hello Every One In-Reply-To: <1070663906.2986.6.camel-dKL88l7hNfq+7LdUnWLbWeRNwQ1nxAZKm8cCszkK4PQ@public.gmane.org> References: <1070663906.2986.6.camel@CPE0080c6f2a89b-CM00003940c461> Message-ID: <3FD205D6.5040000@truxtar.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Hi Stephen, Can you please be more specific about the problems you are having. Can you tell us what kind of computer you have (CPU, Memory), what specific applications are giving you trouble, and any error messages you may have received. With the additional information someone can probably help you. Stephen Oulton wrote: | Hi I'm Stephen Oulton | | I have just changed my system to Red Hat 9.0 and I am having trouble | with things running because of the hosts file. | | It suggests that I add CPE0080c6f2a89b-CM00003940c461 to the file. I | have done that and I still get the same error when I log on to the | system. | | Does any one have any suggestions? | | Thanks in advance | Stephen Oulton | | | -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQE/0gXVRreNkzrRRLQRArypAJ48QDtE6B2NTRu8ECUnrqg3OFT2BwCgjpHz iH+uYq/N3OWHKeEvlZkV/E8= =CJ+P -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 6 17:26:06 2003 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 12:26:06 -0500 Subject: Istop and Reply-To In-Reply-To: <20031206083130.4ab4f9a2.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <20031206083130.4ab4f9a2.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <20031206172606.GA362@node1.opengeometry.net> On Sat, Dec 06, 2003 at 08:31:30AM -0500, JoeHill wrote: > > I've got someone on another list claiming that Istop users *must* use > a "reply-to" setting in their mailer as a matter of policy. > > Can any Istop users confirm or deny this? Not sure. But, they do block dynamic IPs, though. -- William Park, Open Geometry Consulting, Linux solution for data management and processing. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 6 17:39:49 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 12:39:49 -0500 Subject: Istop and Reply-To In-Reply-To: <20031206172606.GA362-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20031206083130.4ab4f9a2.joehill@sympatico.ca> <20031206172606.GA362@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <20031206123949.4297f7a1.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Sat, 6 Dec 2003 12:26:06 -0500 William Park wrote: > > I've got someone on another list claiming that Istop users *must* use > > a "reply-to" setting in their mailer as a matter of policy. > > > > Can any Istop users confirm or deny this? > > Not sure. But, they do block dynamic IPs, though. Would that in any way require someone to use a "reply-to" setting in their mailer? They are sending from their IStop address, not from their own box. Just curious why someone would make something like this up? -- JoeHill ++ ICQ # 280779813 Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." -- Hunter S. Thompson -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From rickl-ZACYGPecefkNbK0NzMECUg at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 6 22:27:44 2003 From: rickl-ZACYGPecefkNbK0NzMECUg at public.gmane.org (rickl-ZACYGPecefkNbK0NzMECUg at public.gmane.org) Date: 6 Dec 2003 22:27:44 -0000 Subject: Toronto Area Novell Users Group - BrainShare 2004 Message-ID: <20031206222744.17307.qmail@wm0.netfirms.com> The Toronto Area Novell Users Group (http://www.TorontoNUI.ca) is a virtual community of computer professionals. As you know Novell is active with Linux. If you want leading edge information on what Novell is doing with SuSE and other Linux projects, BrainShare in Salt Lake City, UT is the place to be March 21-26, 2004. Airfare is approximately $550.00CD and hotel is $100.00US or less per day and needs to be booked separately. The Toronto Area Novell Users Group has a BrainShare discount available for chapter members. You will need to send in your NAME, COMPANY, and E-MAIL ADDRESS along with the $35.00CD annual donation payable to: "Toronto Area Novell Users Group" if you are not a current member. See: http://www.torontonui.ca/contact.htm Please do not send this information until you are ready to register. When we receive your information we will email you back a registration code within a week or so which will only be eligible for those people that are the NUI list. The discount is 20% off the early bird price of $1,595US which makes the price $1,276US. This discount will only be good until February 2, 2004. For more information about The Toronto Area Novell Users Group please go to http://www.TorontoNUI.ca/ IMPORTANT 1. This Group Discount applies to NEW REGISTRATIONS ONLY and cannot be combined with any other discount. No refunds will be given if an attendee has already registered and gets the discount code later. 2. The Group Discount does NOT apply to Novell Training Vouchers. If a NUI member is planning on using Training Vouchers to attend BrainShare, the Group Registration code cannot be used. For additional information on the use of Novell Training Vouchers for BrainShare, please see http://www.novell.com/brainshare/new/vouchers.html. Regards, Rick Tomaschuk Toronto Area Novell Users Group Email: info-PE4J8xSbImWvmauoTqQZlQ at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From ckoitz-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 7 00:56:31 2003 From: ckoitz-Zd07PnzKK1IAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Carola Koitz) Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2003 01:56:31 +0100 Subject: Istop and Reply-To References: <20031206083130.4ab4f9a2.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <3FD27ABF.303@istop.com> You don't have to do it Carola JoeHill wrote: >I've got someone on another list claiming that Istop users *must* use a >"reply-to" setting in their mailer as a matter of policy. > >Can any Istop users confirm or deny this? > > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From ppieczora-Z6LL8UJvm6I at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 7 02:50:43 2003 From: ppieczora-Z6LL8UJvm6I at public.gmane.org (Peter Pieczora) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 21:50:43 -0500 Subject: Hard drive recovery Message-ID: <200312062150.43126.ppieczora@dsl.ca> Hi, I've got a problem with one of the hard drives, which unfortunately is not under warranty anymore. It was RMA'ed at Hitachi and worked fine for last 4 months. It was used on G4 workstation with OS X loaded. Yeasterday, drive started to give strange noise which would indicate actuator arm problem (drive is spinning on power up). I've tried to run dft fitness test but motherboard is not able to detect drive. I'm wonderring if any of you could help me find best way to recover, (if possible) all of the data. Sincerely, Peter -- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 7 03:54:45 2003 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 22:54:45 -0500 Subject: Hard drive recovery In-Reply-To: <200312062150.43126.ppieczora-Z6LL8UJvm6I@public.gmane.org> References: <200312062150.43126.ppieczora@dsl.ca> Message-ID: <20031207035445.GA1895@node1.opengeometry.net> On Sat, Dec 06, 2003 at 09:50:43PM -0500, Peter Pieczora wrote: > Hi, > > I've got a problem with one of the hard drives, which unfortunately is not > under warranty anymore. It was RMA'ed at Hitachi and worked fine for last 4 > months. It was used on G4 workstation with OS X loaded. > Yeasterday, drive started to give strange noise which would indicate actuator > arm problem (drive is spinning on power up). I've tried to run dft fitness > test but motherboard is not able to detect drive. > I'm wonderring if any of you could help me find best way to recover, (if > possible) all of the data. Since you're going to need new harddisk, buy one. Install Linux on the new disk , and copy over. -- William Park, Open Geometry Consulting, Linux solution for data management and processing. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From ppieczora-Z6LL8UJvm6I at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 7 08:06:23 2003 From: ppieczora-Z6LL8UJvm6I at public.gmane.org (Peter Pieczora) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 03:06:23 -0500 Subject: Hard drive recovery In-Reply-To: <20031207035445.GA1895-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <200312062150.43126.ppieczora@dsl.ca> <20031207035445.GA1895@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <200312070306.23311.ppieczora@dsl.ca> > > Since you're going to need new harddisk, buy one. Install Linux on the > new disk , and copy over. Thanks, but I'd like to point out that bios doesn't detect hardrive on the boot whatsoever, so copying data over cannot happen. Further more Im not sure about current linux support for HFS+ file system. Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From sidney-3Kd7Tu4o6f/sBN0MCq728g at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 7 11:56:50 2003 From: sidney-3Kd7Tu4o6f/sBN0MCq728g at public.gmane.org (Sidney Shapiro) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 06:56:50 -0500 Subject: Hard drive recovery In-Reply-To: <200312070306.23311.ppieczora-Z6LL8UJvm6I@public.gmane.org> References: <200312070306.23311.ppieczora@dsl.ca> Message-ID: <004101c3bcb9$36c1d470$6401a8c0@main> > Thanks, but I'd like to point out that bios doesn't detect hardrive on the > boot whatsoever, so copying data over cannot happen. Further more Im not > sure about current linux support for HFS+ file system. > > Peter Peter, try using the demo copy of Active Disk Image, and see if it works. I had a similar situation, where I could not get the drive to detect, and this program got it working, and allowed me to copy the entire HD off, sector by sector over a couple of days. This program really saved my bacon. http://www.lsoft.net/products.html Sid -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 7 13:26:38 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 08:26:38 -0500 Subject: SCO, MPAA, RIAA jointly sue entire world Message-ID: <20031207082638.6ad52dda.joehill@sympatico.ca> Just a bit 'o humour for your Sunday mornin' http://www.newsforge.com/article.pl?sid=03/12/04/1419246 -- JoeHill ++ ICQ # 280779813 Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ He who controls others may be powerful, but he who has mastered himself is mightier still.-- Lao Tsu -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From tenger-ew0EfhANLmVEfu+5ix1nRw at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 7 13:57:12 2003 From: tenger-ew0EfhANLmVEfu+5ix1nRw at public.gmane.org (Terrence Enger) Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2003 08:57:12 -0500 Subject: SOT: shitfs in spam trends and topics In-Reply-To: <3FCC29EE.8040408-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <3FCC29EE.8040408@rogers.com> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20031207085712.006b9a74@mail.look.ca> At 00:58 2003-12-02 -0500, Byron Sonne wrote: > Is there anyone out there that has paid attention to the trends in spam, > in particular topics? Uh-oh. In the continuing battle against spam, I just lost a point by actually opening one. Here is how I go sucked in: the spam arrived on a mailing list for an open-source software project, and the subject carried the word "bug-automake". Did the spammer just figure that a lot of people on the internet are programmers? Or, did a program pick this term out of previous messages on the list? If the latter technique becomes widespread, it could almost destroy the value of unmoderated lists. Horrible thought! Terry. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From dougish-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 7 14:07:03 2003 From: dougish-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org (dougish-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org) Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2003 09:07:03 -0500 Subject: SCO, MPAA, RIAA jointly sue entire world In-Reply-To: <20031207082638.6ad52dda.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <20031207082638.6ad52dda.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: On Sun, 7 Dec 2003 08:26:38 -0500, Joe wrote: > >Just a bit 'o humour for your Sunday mornin' > >http://www.newsforge.com/article.pl?sid=03/12/04/1419246 > >-- >JoeHill ++ ICQ # 280779813 >Registered Linux user #282046 >Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org >+++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >He who controls others may be powerful, but he who has mastered himself is >mightier still.-- Lao Tsu In a semi-related vein, try this link for a little spam/scam humour: http://j-walk.com/other/conf/index.htm Doug -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 7 14:06:31 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 09:06:31 -0500 Subject: SCO, MPAA, RIAA jointly sue entire world In-Reply-To: References: <20031207082638.6ad52dda.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <20031207090631.5fff0ab8.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Sun, 07 Dec 2003 09:07:03 -0500 dougish-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org wrote: > In a semi-related vein, try this link for a little spam/scam humour: > > http://j-walk.com/other/conf/index.htm "Workshop: Grammatical errors: What's the optimal number?" ROTFLMAO! Thanks...I needed that. -- JoeHill ++ ICQ # 280779813 Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "Behind every great fortune is a crime." -- Balzac -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jason-gaRZxGPHtpBxZtjKW1aY+1aTQe2KTcn/ at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 7 15:57:57 2003 From: jason-gaRZxGPHtpBxZtjKW1aY+1aTQe2KTcn/ at public.gmane.org (Jason Shein) Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2003 10:57:57 -0500 Subject: MandrakeMove bootable CD Message-ID: <3FD34E05.7050206@pcsecurityonline.com> Has anyone on the list succesfully run the MandrakeMove cd? I have tried on a dozen different PC's with no success. Kernel panic every time. -- " Eventually people tire of repairing broken Windows, And decide to replace them with something stronger" (o_ //\ Linux - The Choice Of A GNU Generation V_/_ Jason Shein Linux Registered User #281100 jason-gaRZxGPHtpBxZtjKW1aY+1aTQe2KTcn/@public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From dgenn-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 7 17:00:24 2003 From: dgenn-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (DanG) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 12:00:24 -0500 Subject: Hard drive recovery In-Reply-To: <004101c3bcb9$36c1d470$6401a8c0-UxDKcUsq0RM@public.gmane.org> References: <004101c3bcb9$36c1d470$6401a8c0@main> Message-ID: <20031207165832.VRTP317816.fep04-mail.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com@pittlandctr8at> You can also try using g4u http://www.feyrer.de/g4u/ for Linux or Mondo http://www.mondorescue.org/ which are open source and work well. Dan -----Original Message----- From: owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org [mailto:owner-tlug at ss.org] On Behalf Of Sidney Shapiro Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2003 6:57 AM To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Subject: RE: [TLUG]: Hard drive recovery > Thanks, but I'd like to point out that bios doesn't detect hardrive on the > boot whatsoever, so copying data over cannot happen. Further more Im not > sure about current linux support for HFS+ file system. > > Peter Peter, try using the demo copy of Active Disk Image, and see if it works. I had a similar situation, where I could not get the drive to detect, and this program got it working, and allowed me to copy the entire HD off, sector by sector over a couple of days. This program really saved my bacon. http://www.lsoft.net/products.html Sid -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 7 17:42:50 2003 From: cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org (cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org) Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2003 12:42:50 -0500 Subject: M$ to license FAT In-Reply-To: Message from "Marc Lijour (Professeur d'Informatique)" of "Sat, 06 Dec 2003 01:27:43 EST." <200312060127.43917.marc-bbkyySd1vPWsTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org> References: <20031205212652.E63A0402B@cbbrowne.com> <3FD1130F.5000009@rogers.com> <200312060127.43917.marc@lijour.net> Message-ID: <20031207174251.754D3404E@cbbrowne.com> > Le 5 D??cembre 2003 18:21, James Knott a ??crit : > > cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org wrote: > > >>As the title says. Impact on Linux ? > > > > > > If the claims are true, that there are "live" patents still in place on > > > FAT, then it is conceivable that there might be patent infringments, or > > > at least places where MSFT could _claim_ that there are. > > > > > > Of course, FAT is pretty much derivative of CP/M filesystems, so it is > > > more than likely that any conceivable patents would have to have been > > > filed in the '80s, and thus would have, at most, 3 more years to run. > > > > The only place I use FAT, is on systems that also run Windows. So, if > > those partitions are created by Windows and just happen to be accessed > > by Linux, would that be a patent violation? > > I heard that the swap filesystem is build from FAT. Is that true? No, certainly not. Whomever said that was speaking ignorant nonsense. A swap partition has a much more minimal structure than FAT offers. -- let name="cbbrowne" and tld="ntlug.org" in name ^ "@" ^ tld;; http://www.ntlug.org/~cbbrowne/x.html "Utter masochists can inspect the handbook in the main Computer Laboratory library and admire its collection of references to the primary literature and for its price (last seen as comfortably over #100)." -- Arthur Norman -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jason-gaRZxGPHtpBxZtjKW1aY+1aTQe2KTcn/ at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 7 18:03:44 2003 From: jason-gaRZxGPHtpBxZtjKW1aY+1aTQe2KTcn/ at public.gmane.org (Jason Shein) Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2003 13:03:44 -0500 Subject: MandrakeMove bootable CD In-Reply-To: <3FD34E05.7050206-gaRZxGPHtpBxZtjKW1aY+1aTQe2KTcn/@public.gmane.org> References: <3FD34E05.7050206@pcsecurityonline.com> Message-ID: <3FD36B80.8080808@pcsecurityonline.com> Jason Shein wrote: > Has anyone on the list succesfully run the MandrakeMove cd? I have tried > on a dozen different PC's with no success. > > Kernel panic every time. > Found out the the initial release of the rc was broken. The new md5sum is 111682eae2c454b4ca780119f63f8ad4 MandrakeMove-rc-i586.iso the broken one is c8167916ecc6bc72a2191a5db122c124 MandrakeMove-rc-i586.iso -- " Eventually people tire of repairing broken Windows, And decide to replace them with something stronger" (o_ //\ Linux - The Choice Of A GNU Generation V_/_ Jason Shein Linux Registered User #281100 jason-gaRZxGPHtpBxZtjKW1aY+1aTQe2KTcn/@public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 7 18:19:29 2003 From: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 13:19:29 -0500 (EST) Subject: Hard drive recovery In-Reply-To: <200312062150.43126.ppieczora-Z6LL8UJvm6I@public.gmane.org> References: <200312062150.43126.ppieczora@dsl.ca> Message-ID: On Sat, 6 Dec 2003, Peter Pieczora wrote: > I've got a problem with one of the hard drives, which unfortunately is not > under warranty anymore. It was RMA'ed at Hitachi and worked fine for last 4 > months. It was used on G4 workstation with OS X loaded. > Yeasterday, drive started to give strange noise which would indicate actuator > arm problem (drive is spinning on power up). I've tried to run dft fitness > test but motherboard is not able to detect drive. > I'm wonderring if any of you could help me find best way to recover, (if > possible) all of the data. Sounds like you got a couple of good suggestions for recovery. At this point I really want to remind everyone to backup. If the data is important enough that you are worried about whether recovery will be possible when the drive fails, then it is important enough to backup. Of course when & how to backup are decisions specific to the situation. If you can stand to lose a week's data then weekly backups might be fine, but if you need to be able to recover as much as possible then nightly backups becomes a must[1]. Some important points on backing up: - Filesystem mirroring won't replace a good backup scheme. It won't even come close. - A backup that isn't off site isn't a backup at all. [1] You can even go further of course. Some companies run continuous backups of databases and the like. Our company (http://www.opentrend.net) takes backups of our job/client and accounting databases every few hours and shifts them offsite using a secure encrypted channel. Rob -- Robert Brockway B.Sc. email: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org, zzbrock at uqconnect.net Linux counter project ID #16440 (http://counter.li.org) "The earth is but one country and mankind its citizens" -Baha'u'llah -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 8 01:00:07 2003 From: hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org (Howard Gibson) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 20:00:07 -0500 Subject: M$ to license FAT In-Reply-To: <1070667520.2157.1.camel-33sJirT1wKzlb5+wx7kmt/BjuwtQqDz/bwi28uEu5RN+FfftCXEu2Q@public.gmane.org> References: <20031205212652.E63A0402B@cbbrowne.com> <3FD1130F.5000009@rogers.com> <1070667520.2157.1.camel@gamma373-365.portable.resnet.yorku.ca> Message-ID: <20031207200007.59948b0f.hgibson@eol.ca> On Fri, 05 Dec 2003 18:38:42 -0500 aacton wrote: > On Fri, 2003-12-05 at 18:21, James Knott wrote: > > The only place I use FAT, is on systems that also run Windows. > > I don't think it's hard drives that will be the problem, it's that most > digital cameras, USB key drives, and MP3 players use FAT, so it will > just inflate the prices of these items. I'm sure there are free > alternatives that are just as good, but do you think the maker of a $600 > camera will care? > > Austin Austin, I care. The flash cards for my digital camera and my USB keychain device are readable by all the computers I have access to. This is achieved by the FAT filesystem they use. I am not aware of any other file system that has this kind of portabilty. -- Howard Gibson hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org howard-42qnO8ePF9cV+D8aMU/kSg at public.gmane.org http://home.eol.ca/~hgibson -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From sidney-3Kd7Tu4o6f/sBN0MCq728g at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 8 02:25:47 2003 From: sidney-3Kd7Tu4o6f/sBN0MCq728g at public.gmane.org (Sidney Shapiro) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 21:25:47 -0500 Subject: Mail error Question Message-ID: <000f01c3bd32$9bc7e890$6401a8c0@main> Any idea why I am getting this error in a mail in my box? Thanks, Sid ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors ----- (reason: can't create (user) output file) ----- Transcript of session follows ----- procmail: Quota exceeded while writing "/var/spool/mail/sako" 550 5.0.0 ... Can't create output -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 8 02:41:18 2003 From: henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org (Henry Spencer) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 21:41:18 -0500 (EST) Subject: Hard drive recovery In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 7 Dec 2003, Robert Brockway wrote: > - A backup that isn't off site isn't a backup at all. No, both on-site and off-site backups are useful, as hedges against different classes of problems. Henry Spencer henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 8 02:59:49 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 21:59:49 -0500 Subject: Mail error Question In-Reply-To: <000f01c3bd32$9bc7e890$6401a8c0-UxDKcUsq0RM@public.gmane.org> References: <000f01c3bd32$9bc7e890$6401a8c0@main> Message-ID: <20031207215949.3573776b.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Sun, 7 Dec 2003 21:25:47 -0500 "Sidney Shapiro" wrote: > Any idea why I am getting this error in a mail in my box? Thanks, Sid I don't know offhand, but try a www.google.ca/linux search on that error and I can guarantee you you'll find some hints. I use that whenever I get an error I don't understant, it always points me in the right direction. -- JoeHill ++ ICQ # 280779813 Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "You tell me it's the institution; Well you know, you better free your mind instead..."-- John Lennon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From IlyaPalagin-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 8 03:18:19 2003 From: IlyaPalagin-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Ilya Palagin) Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2003 22:18:19 -0500 Subject: Mail error Question In-Reply-To: <000f01c3bd32$9bc7e890$6401a8c0-UxDKcUsq0RM@public.gmane.org> References: <000f01c3bd32$9bc7e890$6401a8c0@main> Message-ID: <3FD3ED7B.1090704@rogers.com> Sidney Shapiro wrote: > Any idea why I am getting this error in a mail in my box? Thanks, Sid > ... > > procmail: Quota exceeded while writing "/var/spool/mail/sako" > Disk quota of the "sako" mail account is exceeded. Sako needs to download his messages to clean up the spool, or you're trying to send too big file. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 8 03:30:22 2003 From: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 22:30:22 -0500 (EST) Subject: Hard drive recovery In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 7 Dec 2003, Henry Spencer wrote: > On Sun, 7 Dec 2003, Robert Brockway wrote: > > - A backup that isn't off site isn't a backup at all. > > No, both on-site and off-site backups are useful, as hedges against > different classes of problems. Ok, my statement was probably an over simplification but it was aimed at driving home the point that a company (or even a home user) needs to have backups that will protect them from site destruction before they can consider their data even slightly safe. Too many companies religiously take backups and leave them lying on top of the server, or worse, still in the drive. As it happens I do advocate on site backups. I've certainly used them many times to effect fast recoveries when obtaining an off site backup would have slowed the recovery process considerably. When building a backup solution, resources allowing, I will setup a staging area on disk somewhere to hold backups. From the staging area the backups can go off site by the chosen means. This is a big area so I won't go on, but issues like security of the staging area (or even staging/backup server) need to be considered. Security of the data off site as well. I've been thinking about a talk on backup best practice for TLUG. I went in to this a little at the end of my optimization[1] talk but have we had anything else like this recently? [1] Spelling corrected for a North American audience. No one tried to correct my Anglo-Australian spelling during the talk but I did receive an email afterwards :) Rob -- Robert Brockway B.Sc. email: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org, zzbrock at uqconnect.net Linux counter project ID #16440 (http://counter.li.org) "The earth is but one country and mankind its citizens" -Baha'u'llah -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 8 04:19:41 2003 From: cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org (cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org) Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2003 23:19:41 -0500 Subject: Hard drive recovery In-Reply-To: Message from Henry Spencer of "Sun, 07 Dec 2003 21:41:18 EST." References: Message-ID: <20031208041943.1448D47D7@cbbrowne.com> > On Sun, 7 Dec 2003, Robert Brockway wrote: > > - A backup that isn't off site isn't a backup at all. > > No, both on-site and off-site backups are useful, as hedges against > different classes of problems. Indeed. On-site backups can typically be applied _much_ more quickly than off-site backups. I'd buy that you have not got a robust _set_ of backups if there isn't something useful off site. But a really useful approach to doing backups is to copy data to a local host that may be a "gateway" for the offsite backup. In cases of small disasters, the data at the gateway location is quite likely to provide the most convenient means of recovery.. -- "cbbrowne","@","cbbrowne.com" http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/backup.html Don't be so open-minded that your brains fall out. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From fcsoft-3Emkkp+1Olsmp8TqCH86vg at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 8 14:11:33 2003 From: fcsoft-3Emkkp+1Olsmp8TqCH86vg at public.gmane.org (bob findlay) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 09:11:33 -0500 Subject: volunteers need to do some Python programming Message-ID: <20031208144640.9A55E1ECB86@outbox.allstream.net> iCanProgram.com has been offering online programming courses for nofees since Jan 2002. By most measures it has been a great success with over 2000 students since Jan 2002. One of the older courses is in need of a "spruce up". This course uses Tcl/Tk to introduce programming to complete beginners. Tcl/Tk was chosen because I knew the language and it is freely available on any OS platform including that dreaded Gatesware. I'd like to enhance this course material with Python/Tk examples in parallel to Tcl/Tk. Unfortunately, I don't know Python sufficiently well to author this material. If you are interested in volunteering your talents to this task please contact me off list and we can discuss what I had in mind. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jmm-TU2q2He6PgRlD5gtYiU6kEEOCMrvLtNR at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 8 16:11:39 2003 From: jmm-TU2q2He6PgRlD5gtYiU6kEEOCMrvLtNR at public.gmane.org (John Macdonald) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 11:11:39 -0500 Subject: Hard drive recovery In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20031208111139.A23949@algate.perlwolf.com> On Sun, Dec 07, 2003 at 10:30:22PM -0500, Robert Brockway wrote: > I've been thinking about a talk on backup best practice for TLUG. I went > in to this a little at the end of my optimization[1] talk but have we had > anything else like this recently? We could go from the sublime to the ridiculous and give a pair of talks. (Each listener could choose which was sublime and which ridiculous.) I could describe the technical aspects of EMC hardware and software. That includes high end storage systems capable of: - accomodating and routing around communication failures in a storage network - transparently maintaining multiple copies of live data, both local and remote - transparently making point in time copies of live data, again either locally or remotely I could also provide some info about the complications that can occur when you try to copy data that includes live databases - there are a number of ways that you can end up with errors or problems unless you take special care. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From tim-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 8 15:19:55 2003 From: tim-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Tim Writer) Date: 08 Dec 2003 10:19:55 -0500 Subject: M$ to license FAT In-Reply-To: <20031205212652.E63A0402B-xzRQuAxiFLNWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org> References: <20031205212652.E63A0402B@cbbrowne.com> Message-ID: cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org writes: > > As the title says. Impact on Linux ? > > If the claims are true, that there are "live" patents still in place on > FAT, then it is conceivable that there might be patent infringments, or > at least places where MSFT could _claim_ that there are. IANAL but, as I understand it, damages in a pattern infringement case are usually awarded on the basis of lost profit, i.e. the profit M$ would have made if it weren't for the infringement. Linux users who want access to their FAT files (from within Linux) aren't about to purchase an M$ product (or licensed product) since there's no product available with the required functionality. Consequently, while patents might have been infringed, damages are $0. -- tim writer starnix inc. 905.771.0017 ext. 225 thornhill, ontario, canada http://www.starnix.com professional linux services & products -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jmm-TU2q2He6PgRlD5gtYiU6kEEOCMrvLtNR at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 8 16:34:48 2003 From: jmm-TU2q2He6PgRlD5gtYiU6kEEOCMrvLtNR at public.gmane.org (John Macdonald) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 11:34:48 -0500 Subject: M$ to license FAT In-Reply-To: References: <20031205212652.E63A0402B@cbbrowne.com> Message-ID: <20031208113447.B24061@algate.perlwolf.com> On Mon, Dec 08, 2003 at 10:19:55AM -0500, Tim Writer wrote: > cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org writes: > > > > As the title says. Impact on Linux ? > > > > If the claims are true, that there are "live" patents still in place on > > FAT, then it is conceivable that there might be patent infringments, or > > at least places where MSFT could _claim_ that there are. > > IANAL but, as I understand it, damages in a pattern infringement case are > usually awarded on the basis of lost profit, i.e. the profit M$ would have > made if it weren't for the infringement. Linux users who want access to > their FAT files (from within Linux) aren't about to purchase an M$ product > (or licensed product) since there's no product available with the > required functionality. Consequently, while patents might have been > infringed, damages are $0. That's fine for a dual boot Linux getting access to the licensed MS file system, but if another poster was right about USD memory disks and such devices using FAT, the "damage" is that you used a Linux instead of buying Windows to read the USB device. Does anyone have any details of exactly what is patented and when the patent(s) expire? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 8 15:42:10 2003 From: henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org (Henry Spencer) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 10:42:10 -0500 (EST) Subject: M$ to license FAT In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 8 Dec 2003, Tim Writer wrote: > IANAL but, as I understand it, damages in a pattern infringement case are > usually awarded on the basis of lost profit, i.e. the profit M$ would have > made if it weren't for the infringement. Linux users who want access to > their FAT files (from within Linux) aren't about to purchase an M$ product > (or licensed product) since there's no product available with the > required functionality... Microsoft would undoubtedly claim that if access to FAT files was important and only Microsoft could do it, those people would be running Microsoft operating systems instead of Linux. That may or may not be exactly true, but it *is* true that the more things there are that Linux can't do, the less practical a system it is for people who need to get things done, and the more people are driven into the welcoming arms of Microsoft. This does provide a plausible argument that there are real monetary damages being suffered. Henry Spencer henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jmm-TU2q2He6PgRlD5gtYiU6kEEOCMrvLtNR at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 8 17:37:42 2003 From: jmm-TU2q2He6PgRlD5gtYiU6kEEOCMrvLtNR at public.gmane.org (John Macdonald) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 12:37:42 -0500 Subject: M$ to license FAT In-Reply-To: <20031208113447.B24061-TU2q2He6PgRlD5gtYiU6kEEOCMrvLtNR@public.gmane.org> References: <20031205212652.E63A0402B@cbbrowne.com> <20031208113447.B24061@algate.perlwolf.com> Message-ID: <20031208123742.A24184@algate.perlwolf.com> On Mon, Dec 08, 2003 at 11:34:48AM -0500, John Macdonald wrote: > That's fine for a dual boot Linux getting access to > the licensed MS file system, but if another poster > was right about USD memory disks and such devices > using FAT, the "damage" is that you used a Linux > instead of buying Windows to read the USB device. According to a couple of articles at the Register, it is speciufially at this sort of device that MS is initially directing its force; but the eventual aim is to use patents to provide MS with a revenue stream now that it's monopoly position has reached its limit to provide continue exponential growth. They claim that this is the first stage in an attack on free sofware. http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/34348.html http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/34391.html > Does anyone have any details of exactly what is > patented and when the patent(s) expire? They don't state anything about patent details in the Register articles, but they refer to the MS web page that describes the FAT licensing of Intellectual Property, which refers to 4 existing patents: * U.S. Patent #5,579,517 * U.S. Patent #5,745,902 * U.S. Patent #5,758,352 * U.S. Patent #6,286,013 and to another patent covering additional innovations where the patent has not yet been granted. The lowest numbered one was files Apr/1995 and granted Nov/1996, so the patents themselves are in no danger of expiring for a number of years (but I suspect that the patented concepts are significantly older and should be in danger of passing the expiry limit for when they were first available). A French article gives some details on their meanings: http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=fr&u=http://blog.saint-elie.com/&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dpatent%2B%2B5579517%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26oe%3DUTF-8%26sa%3DG # U.S. Obvious #5,579,517 Long Common name space for and shorts filenames # U.S. Obvious #5,745,902 Method and system for accessing has file using file names having different file name formats # U.S. Obvious #5,758,352 Long Common name space for and shorts filenames # U.S. Obvious #6,286,013 Method and system for providing has common name space for long and shorts spins names in year operating system -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From taavi-LbuTpDkqzNzXI80/IeQp7B2eb7JE58TQ at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 8 16:45:29 2003 From: taavi-LbuTpDkqzNzXI80/IeQp7B2eb7JE58TQ at public.gmane.org (Taavi Burns) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 11:45:29 -0500 Subject: M$ to license FAT In-Reply-To: <20031208123742.A24184-TU2q2He6PgRlD5gtYiU6kEEOCMrvLtNR@public.gmane.org> References: <20031205212652.E63A0402B@cbbrowne.com> <20031208113447.B24061@algate.perlwolf.com> <20031208123742.A24184@algate.perlwolf.com> Message-ID: <20031208164529.GA2033@hatefulsheep> On Mon, Dec 08, 2003 at 12:37:42PM -0500, John Macdonald wrote: > # U.S. Obvious #5,579,517 > Long Common name space for and shorts filenames > # U.S. Obvious #5,745,902 > Method and system for accessing has file using file names having different file name formats > # U.S. Obvious #5,758,352 > Long Common name space for and shorts filenames > # U.S. Obvious #6,286,013 > Method and system for providing has common name space for long and shorts spins names in year operating system Okay, as someone else said, these all seem to relate to long filenames on FAT (i.e. VFAT). What about people who don't use those extensions? My digital camera sticks very strictly to the old 8.3 filenames. And hey, if a Linux person needs to use a FAT drive for file exchange, but usually use Linux, there may be a revisiting of UMSDOS. ;) -- taa /*eof*/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jmm-TU2q2He6PgRlD5gtYiU6kEEOCMrvLtNR at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 8 18:16:16 2003 From: jmm-TU2q2He6PgRlD5gtYiU6kEEOCMrvLtNR at public.gmane.org (John Macdonald) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 13:16:16 -0500 Subject: M$ to license FAT In-Reply-To: <20031208164529.GA2033-9xiANKxwco6iqb11nhpoTg@public.gmane.org> References: <20031205212652.E63A0402B@cbbrowne.com> <20031208113447.B24061@algate.perlwolf.com> <20031208123742.A24184@algate.perlwolf.com> <20031208164529.GA2033@hatefulsheep> Message-ID: <20031208131615.B24184@algate.perlwolf.com> On Mon, Dec 08, 2003 at 11:45:29AM -0500, Taavi Burns wrote: > On Mon, Dec 08, 2003 at 12:37:42PM -0500, John Macdonald wrote: > > # U.S. Obvious #5,579,517 > > Long Common name space for and shorts filenames > > # U.S. Obvious #5,745,902 > > Method and system for accessing has file using file names having different file name formats > > # U.S. Obvious #5,758,352 > > Long Common name space for and shorts filenames > > # U.S. Obvious #6,286,013 > > Method and system for providing has common name space for long and shorts spins names in year operating system > > Okay, as someone else said, these all seem to relate to long filenames > on FAT (i.e. VFAT). What about people who don't use those extensions? > My digital camera sticks very strictly to the old 8.3 filenames. And > hey, if a Linux person needs to use a FAT drive for file exchange, but > usually use Linux, there may be a revisiting of UMSDOS. ;) That's no going to work. Long names are convenient to use, and the MS license is just 25 cents per device (or less - there is a cap so large volume manufacturers pay less per device on average). A free alternative might be better (ext2 might work), but again it is the camera and USB device makers that have to be convinced. For now, they support FAT and ensure Windows customers or go to lengths to allow Linux customers and reduce their sales to Windows customers. As a higher proportion of the target customers become Linux instead of Windows, they will eventually get some incentive to change - that will like happen first outside of North America. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From mwilson-4YeSL8/OYKRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 8 17:36:19 2003 From: mwilson-4YeSL8/OYKRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Mel Wilson) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 12:36:19 -0500 Subject: volunteers need to do some Python programming References: <20031208144640.9A55E1ECB86@outbox.allstream.net> Message-ID: In article <20031208144640.9A55E1ECB86-pwyU32sTfCqP7boJH+kiu+TW4wlIGRCZ at public.gmane.org>, bob findlay wrote: >[ ... ] >If you are interested in volunteering your talents to this task please >contact me off list and we can discuss what I had in mind. I would, but your account is rejecting mail. Mel. >-- >The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org >TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From taavi-LbuTpDkqzNzXI80/IeQp7B2eb7JE58TQ at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 8 17:57:24 2003 From: taavi-LbuTpDkqzNzXI80/IeQp7B2eb7JE58TQ at public.gmane.org (Taavi Burns) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 12:57:24 -0500 Subject: M$ to license FAT In-Reply-To: <20031208131615.B24184-TU2q2He6PgRlD5gtYiU6kEEOCMrvLtNR@public.gmane.org> References: <20031205212652.E63A0402B@cbbrowne.com> <20031208113447.B24061@algate.perlwolf.com> <20031208123742.A24184@algate.perlwolf.com> <20031208164529.GA2033@hatefulsheep> <20031208131615.B24184@algate.perlwolf.com> Message-ID: <20031208175724.GB2033@hatefulsheep> On Mon, Dec 08, 2003 at 01:16:16PM -0500, John Macdonald wrote: > > Okay, as someone else said, these all seem to relate to long filenames > > on FAT (i.e. VFAT). What about people who don't use those extensions? > > My digital camera sticks very strictly to the old 8.3 filenames. And > > hey, if a Linux person needs to use a FAT drive for file exchange, but > > usually use Linux, there may be a revisiting of UMSDOS. ;) > > That's no going to work. Long names are convenient > to use, So the Linux driver won't support them. If the storage device just doesn't bother to use them (which is VERY easy to do), then there's no royalty to pay. In fact, how many digital cameras do you know that actually use long filenames? The VFAT spec is ugly compared to FAT, which is relatively simple. That's the biggest reason to use FAT: simplicity. > and the MS license is just 25 cents per > device (or less - there is a cap so large volume > manufacturers pay less per device on average). That's if the manufacturer uses VFAT. I don't see that, though. > A free alternative might be better (ext2 might work), > but again it is the camera and USB device makers Now that I think about it, the USB device makers have nothing to say in the matter. I also have a USB SmartMedia reader, and the SmartMedia cards just show up as removeable SCSI drives. I can format it any way that I please. > that have to be convinced. For now, they support > FAT and ensure Windows customers or go to lengths > to allow Linux customers and reduce their sales to > Windows customers. As a higher proportion of the > target customers become Linux instead of Windows, > they will eventually get some incentive to change - > that will like happen first outside of North America. They'll probably just stick with plain old FAT. If they need long filenames, they'll probably go to VFAT (which is still readable as FAT). If they REALLY want to be with the Linux crowd, they can do UMSDOS. They could even do both FAT and UMSDOS, but keeping those two in sync when the storage is used outside the space of the device which keeps them both in sync would be a nightmare. -- taa /*eof*/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 8 18:02:17 2003 From: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 13:02:17 -0500 (EST) Subject: M$ to license FAT In-Reply-To: <20031208113447.B24061-TU2q2He6PgRlD5gtYiU6kEEOCMrvLtNR@public.gmane.org> References: <20031205212652.E63A0402B@cbbrowne.com> <20031208113447.B24061@algate.perlwolf.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 8 Dec 2003, John Macdonald wrote: > That's fine for a dual boot Linux getting access to > the licensed MS file system, but if another poster > was right about USD memory disks and such devices > using FAT, the "damage" is that you used a Linux > instead of buying Windows to read the USB device. Maybe the manufacturers of these devices will change to another filesytem (they can take their pick from many choices available in Linux & BSD) in order to avoid paying the licencing fees. I was initially thinking about Linux's implementation of the Minix1 FS because it is lite but it is limited to 64MB iirc, which is already too small for these device. All the manufacturers need to do is supply the filesystem driver when they install the s/w on the MS-Windows. Adding drivers all over the place is part of the MS-Windows culture. > Does anyone have any details of exactly what is > patented and when the patent(s) expire? Patents expire when Mickey Mouse is no longer profitable, or is that copyrights, I can't remember. Rob -- Robert Brockway B.Sc. email: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org, zzbrock at uqconnect.net Linux counter project ID #16440 (http://counter.li.org) "The earth is but one country and mankind its citizens" -Baha'u'llah -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From taavi-LbuTpDkqzNzXI80/IeQp7B2eb7JE58TQ at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 8 18:14:23 2003 From: taavi-LbuTpDkqzNzXI80/IeQp7B2eb7JE58TQ at public.gmane.org (Taavi Burns) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 13:14:23 -0500 Subject: M$ to license FAT In-Reply-To: References: <20031205212652.E63A0402B@cbbrowne.com> <20031208113447.B24061@algate.perlwolf.com> Message-ID: <20031208181423.GD2033@hatefulsheep> On Mon, Dec 08, 2003 at 01:02:17PM -0500, Robert Brockway wrote: > Maybe the manufacturers of these devices will change to another filesytem > (they can take their pick from many choices available in Linux & BSD) in > order to avoid paying the licencing fees. I was initially thinking about But if they can avoid paying a license fee by promising to not use functionality that they're already not using... > All the manufacturers need to do is supply the filesystem driver when they > install the s/w on the MS-Windows. Adding drivers all over the place is > part of the MS-Windows culture. But they'd need to write and maintain that driver...and for what? If they NEED long filenames, then ok. Otherwise I really don't see the point. > Patents expire when Mickey Mouse is no longer profitable, or is that > copyrights, I can't remember. That would be copyright, but the precedent is set for a sufficiently profitable to have its public domain-ness delayed. -- taa /*eof*/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 8 18:48:10 2003 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 13:48:10 -0500 Subject: volunteers need to do some Python programming In-Reply-To: References: <20031208144640.9A55E1ECB86@outbox.allstream.net> Message-ID: <20031208184810.GA396@node1.opengeometry.net> On Mon, Dec 08, 2003 at 12:36:19PM -0500, Mel Wilson wrote: > In article <20031208144640.9A55E1ECB86-pwyU32sTfCqP7boJH+kiu+TW4wlIGRCZ at public.gmane.org>, > bob findlay wrote: > >[ ... ] > >If you are interested in volunteering your talents to this task please > >contact me off list and we can discuss what I had in mind. > > I would, but your account is rejecting mail. God is punishing him for uttering Python in vain... :-) -- William Park, Open Geometry Consulting, Linux solution for data management and processing. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 8 18:55:22 2003 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 13:55:22 -0500 Subject: M$ to license FAT In-Reply-To: References: <20031205212652.E63A0402B@cbbrowne.com> <20031208113447.B24061@algate.perlwolf.com> Message-ID: <20031208185522.GA407@node1.opengeometry.net> On Mon, Dec 08, 2003 at 01:02:17PM -0500, Robert Brockway wrote: > Maybe the manufacturers of these devices will change to another > filesytem (they can take their pick from many choices available in > Linux & BSD) in order to avoid paying the licencing fees. Wishful thinking... If you're selling $500 digital camera, would you be complaining that you have to pay $0.25 license fee (or whatever it is)? -- William Park, Open Geometry Consulting, Linux solution for data management and processing. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From tim-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 8 19:10:15 2003 From: tim-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Tim Writer) Date: 08 Dec 2003 14:10:15 -0500 Subject: M$ to license FAT In-Reply-To: References: <20031205212652.E63A0402B@cbbrowne.com> <20031208113447.B24061@algate.perlwolf.com> Message-ID: Robert Brockway writes: > On Mon, 8 Dec 2003, John Macdonald wrote: > > > That's fine for a dual boot Linux getting access to > > the licensed MS file system, but if another poster > > was right about USD memory disks and such devices > > using FAT, the "damage" is that you used a Linux > > instead of buying Windows to read the USB device. > > Maybe the manufacturers of these devices will change to another filesytem > (they can take their pick from many choices available in Linux & BSD) in > order to avoid paying the licencing fees. I was initially thinking about > Linux's implementation of the Minix1 FS because it is lite but it is > limited to 64MB iirc, which is already too small for these device. Keep in mind that Linux is rapidly becoming the embedded platform of choice. How many manufacturers of consumer electronics products are already using Linux in their devices? How many will be making the transition soon? And Linux already offers file systems that are more appropriate for this type of use. JFFS2, for example, includes wear leveling to minimize wear which can cause certain types of flash devices to fail much earlier than expected. IIRC, FAT stores critical information (the file allocation table and a single backup) in a fixed area of the file system. When it fails due to wear, you're toast, even if the majority of the device is in good shape. > All the manufacturers need to do is supply the filesystem driver when they > install the s/w on the MS-Windows. Adding drivers all over the place is > part of the MS-Windows culture. In fact, many (most?) such products already come with software from the manufacturer, even if it's not stricly necessary. -- tim writer starnix inc. 905.771.0017 ext. 225 thornhill, ontario, canada http://www.starnix.com professional linux services & products -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From taavi-LbuTpDkqzNzXI80/IeQp7B2eb7JE58TQ at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 8 19:22:15 2003 From: taavi-LbuTpDkqzNzXI80/IeQp7B2eb7JE58TQ at public.gmane.org (Taavi Burns) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 14:22:15 -0500 Subject: M$ to license FAT In-Reply-To: References: <20031205212652.E63A0402B@cbbrowne.com> <20031208113447.B24061@algate.perlwolf.com> Message-ID: <20031208192215.GE2033@hatefulsheep> On Mon, Dec 08, 2003 at 02:10:15PM -0500, Tim Writer wrote: > And Linux already offers file systems that are more appropriate for this type > of use. JFFS2, for example, includes wear leveling to minimize wear which can > cause certain types of flash devices to fail much earlier than expected. > IIRC, FAT stores critical information (the file allocation table and a single > backup) in a fixed area of the file system. When it fails due to wear, > you're toast, even if the majority of the device is in good shape. Most (all?) of the standard Flash memory devices these days have onboard controllers which can detect failing sectors in the flash memory, and will reroute data to spare sectors, much as HDs do these days. Of course, if the filesystem can help out, all the better. :) > In fact, many (most?) such products already come with software from the > manufacturer, even if it's not stricly necessary. But do you want to encourage this behaviour? And how many distros come with JFFS2 drivers? Is it even part of the standard kernel source (it doesn't look familar to me; then again, I haven't been looking for it). There is still the question of which would cost more: VFAT licensing (if even required), or the writing and maintenance of a driver. We might be happy if they came out with some random open source Windows driver (that couldn't very well be GPL, now, could it), but others might get a "bad" feeling about it. -- taa /*eof*/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 8 19:37:37 2003 From: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 14:37:37 -0500 (EST) Subject: M$ to license FAT In-Reply-To: References: <20031205212652.E63A0402B@cbbrowne.com> <20031208113447.B24061@algate.perlwolf.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 8 Dec 2003, Tim Writer wrote: > And Linux already offers file systems that are more appropriate for this type > of use. JFFS2, for example, includes wear leveling to minimize wear which can > cause certain types of flash devices to fail much earlier than expected. > IIRC, FAT stores critical information (the file allocation table and a single > backup) in a fixed area of the file system. When it fails due to wear, > you're toast, even if the majority of the device is in good shape. Got that right. I used to have dozens (maybe hundreds) of floppies that would fail a format under MS-DOS (ie, FAT12) but would accept an EXT2FS just fine. Sector 0 was dying on the floppies iirc and EXT2 would just work around the problem whereas FAT12 could not. > > All the manufacturers need to do is supply the filesystem driver when they > > install the s/w on the MS-Windows. Adding drivers all over the place is > > part of the MS-Windows culture. > > In fact, many (most?) such products already come with software from the > manufacturer, even if it's not stricly necessary. Exactly so bundling a little more would hardly be something the manufacturer would worry about. Rob -- Robert Brockway B.Sc. email: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org, zzbrock at uqconnect.net Linux counter project ID #16440 (http://counter.li.org) "The earth is but one country and mankind its citizens" -Baha'u'llah -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jmm-TU2q2He6PgRlD5gtYiU6kEEOCMrvLtNR at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 8 21:01:13 2003 From: jmm-TU2q2He6PgRlD5gtYiU6kEEOCMrvLtNR at public.gmane.org (John Macdonald) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 16:01:13 -0500 Subject: M$ to license FAT In-Reply-To: References: <20031205212652.E63A0402B@cbbrowne.com> <20031208113447.B24061@algate.perlwolf.com> Message-ID: <20031208160112.C24184@algate.perlwolf.com> On Mon, Dec 08, 2003 at 01:02:17PM -0500, Robert Brockway wrote: > On Mon, 8 Dec 2003, John Macdonald wrote: > > Does anyone have any details of exactly what is > > patented and when the patent(s) expire? > > Patents expire when Mickey Mouse is no longer profitable, or is that > copyrights, I can't remember. That's copyright - control of making a copy of a work of art. Patents cover an idea, not just a particular work; they last for 20 years or so. (I think it's 19 years, with some variation in the details if there is a long time between when the patent gets filed and when it is approved.) The patent trades a monopoly on the idea against full public disclosure of the details of the idea so that once the patent expires, the public can make full use of the knowledge. One example in the computer industry is the RSA encryption algorithm. It was patented - the patent expired in 2000. The underlying concept for public key encryption had also been patented, but that more basic patent expired even earlier. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From emir-rdkfGonbjUTTQjIoRn/dzw at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 8 21:24:53 2003 From: emir-rdkfGonbjUTTQjIoRn/dzw at public.gmane.org (Emir) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 16:24:53 -0500 Subject: volunteers need to do some Python programming In-Reply-To: <20031208184810.GA396-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20031208144640.9A55E1ECB86@outbox.allstream.net> <20031208184810.GA396@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <3FD4EC25.5030002@codemonkeys.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 08/12/2003 13:48, William Park wrote: > On Mon, Dec 08, 2003 at 12:36:19PM -0500, Mel Wilson wrote: > >>In article <20031208144640.9A55E1ECB86-pwyU32sTfCqP7boJH+kiu+TW4wlIGRCZ at public.gmane.org>, >>bob findlay wrote: >> >>>[ ... ] >>>If you are interested in volunteering your talents to this task please >>>contact me off list and we can discuss what I had in mind. >> >>I would, but your account is rejecting mail. > > > God is punishing him for uttering Python in vain... :-) Maybe the punishment is for teaching Tcl/Tk... - -- Emir. "Politicians, like diapers, have to be changed frequently. And for the very same reason." -- Anonymous -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (MingW32) iD8DBQE/1OwluSy542G+Z7QRAv/5AKCr7z4LR6n6FLgD9U4fs9EUMWGI1ACfdfzH Jwg0tCNgBevTaYBFjs7gfD8= =86FW -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lists-jiQtrEI3vUxWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 8 21:55:42 2003 From: lists-jiQtrEI3vUxWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (S P Arif Sahari Wibowo) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 16:55:42 -0500 (EST) Subject: Question about the meeting Message-ID: Hi! I have a newbie questions. As scheduled in the website, TLUG will have meeting tomorrow (Dec 9). What usually happen in the meeting? How the best way to go there? Is there any reasonable parking around the place? How much is the parking? Thanks! -- Stephan Paul Arif Sahari Wibowo _____ _____ _____ _____ /____ /____/ /____/ /____ _____/ / / / _____/ http://www.arifsaha.com/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 8 22:00:34 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 17:00:34 -0500 Subject: *Really* bad week for SCO Message-ID: <20031208170034.14835d7a.joehill@sympatico.ca> >From Groklaw, the requirements for SCO, as put forward by the judge, to not only identify the *exact* items which it claims are improperly copied IP, but *this* little bit, which I would give anything to see them try and show: "efforts to maintain secrecy or confidentiality of the [alleged trade secrets]...." LOL! That should be kinda tough, considering they released those "trade secrets" in their own version of Linux... :-D I think it's a good time to start selling any SCO stock you own... Link: http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20031206151020872 -- JoeHill ++ ICQ # 280779813 Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness."-- John Kenneth Galbraith -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 8 22:30:04 2003 From: davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (David J Patrick) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 17:30:04 -0500 Subject: Question about the meeting In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3FD4FB6C.6080407@sympatico.ca> S P Arif Sahari Wibowo wrote: >Hi! > >I have a newbie questions. > >As scheduled in the website, TLUG will have meeting tomorrow (Dec 9). >What usually happen in the meeting? > > 30 - 50 furry geeks (and, occasionally, a bright looking young lady) gather in a lecture room. If there's a guest speaker, and he's new to *nix, the group will baffle him with 147 different ways to do anything. If the guest is a linux expert, it is the n00bs that will be baffled. There will be jabs at SCO and Micro$oft, and countless inside jokes with varying levels of hilarity. Problems will be solved, and new ones uncovered, contacts will be made. The guys in the first two rows will do 80% of the talking, have done everything, could store data on a microwave oven and network it to the toaster. Most of the group will just listen with an expression of interest, or boredom, or a headache, it's hard to tell. Afterwards, if the prevailing mood is thirsty, the group will reconvene at a campus pub for frosty jugs and good company. See you there. >How the best way to go there? > > TTC to College & McCaul, then cut north into the University grounds.. .. ask a fresh faced student how to get to the Galbraith building. >Is there any reasonable parking around the place? >How much is the parking? > > You can park along Kings College circle, I think it'll be $10 - $12 >Thanks! > > > you're welcome, djp -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 8 22:33:16 2003 From: davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (David J Patrick) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 17:33:16 -0500 Subject: *Really* bad week for SCO In-Reply-To: <20031208170034.14835d7a.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <20031208170034.14835d7a.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <3FD4FC2C.50609@sympatico.ca> JoeHill wrote: >>From Groklaw, the requirements for SCO, as put forward by the judge, to not only >identify the *exact* items which it claims are improperly copied IP, but *this* >little bit, which I would give anything to see them try and show: > >"efforts to maintain secrecy or confidentiality of the [alleged trade >secrets]...." > >LOL! That should be kinda tough, considering they released those "trade >secrets" in their own version of Linux... :-D > >I think it's a good time to start selling any SCO stock you own... > >Link: > >http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20031206151020872 > > > That begs the question; are there any investment wizards in the group who know how to "short" a stock and, thus" reap the reward for predicting SCOs (and soon enough M$s) swan dive ? Should we get a group thing going ? hmmmm ? djp -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 8 22:53:01 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 17:53:01 -0500 Subject: *Really* bad week for SCO In-Reply-To: <3FD4FC2C.50609-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <20031208170034.14835d7a.joehill@sympatico.ca> <3FD4FC2C.50609@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <20031208175301.13e73a43.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Mon, 08 Dec 2003 17:33:16 -0500 David J Patrick wrote: > That begs the question; are there any investment wizards in the group > who know how to "short" a stock > and, thus" reap the reward for predicting SCOs (and soon enough M$s) > swan dive ? > Should we get a group thing going ? hmmmm ? IIRC, that came up before, on this very list. At first I was a little cold on the idea, being a bit of a pinko and all ;-), but hey, like Heinlein said, "of course the game is fixed, but if you don't bet, you can't win". Everyone go watch Trading Places, we'll be experts by tomorrow, then let the bloodletting begin! BTW, my ma was telling me she's already seen the IBM Linux ad, gave 'er chills and she doesn't even know what Linux is hardly. I don't have cable myself :-(. Anyone else seen it on TV? -- JoeHill ++ ICQ # 280779813 Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ If those in charge of our society - politicians, corporate executives, and owners of press and television - can dominate our ideas, they will be secure in their power. They will not need soldiers patrolling the streets. We will control ourselves.-- Howard Zinn -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lists-jiQtrEI3vUxWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 8 23:13:20 2003 From: lists-jiQtrEI3vUxWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (S P Arif Sahari Wibowo) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 18:13:20 -0500 (EST) Subject: Question about the meeting In-Reply-To: <3FD4FB6C.6080407-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FD4FB6C.6080407@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: On Mon, 8 Dec 2003, David J Patrick wrote: >30 - 50 furry geeks (and, occasionally, a bright looking young lady) >gather in a lecture room. I thought geeks usually less furry. What do you mean by "bright looking"? :-) >If there's a guest speaker, Will there be any guest speaker tomorrow? If yes, what will the speaker speak about? >There will be jabs at SCO and Micro$oft, and countless inside jokes with >varying levels of hilarity. Problems will be solved, and new ones >uncovered, contacts will be made. Sounds like very normal gathering. :-) >You can park along Kings College circle, I think it'll be $10 - $12 Argh! Did I say 'reasonable'? Well, TTC it is, then. Thanks! -- Stephan Paul Arif Sahari Wibowo _____ _____ _____ _____ /____ /____/ /____/ /____ _____/ / / / _____/ http://www.arifsaha.com/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 8 23:12:08 2003 From: clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (CLIFFORD ILKAY) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 18:12:08 -0500 Subject: volunteers need to do some Python programming In-Reply-To: <20031208144640.9A55E1ECB86-pwyU32sTfCqP7boJH+kiu+TW4wlIGRCZ@public.gmane.org> References: <20031208144640.9A55E1ECB86@outbox.allstream.net> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20031208180353.03407058@localhost> At 09:11 08/12/2003 -0500, bob findlay wrote: >iCanProgram.com has been offering online programming courses for nofees since >Jan 2002. By most measures it has been a great success with over 2000 >students since Jan 2002. > >One of the older courses is in need of a "spruce up". This course uses >Tcl/Tk to introduce programming to complete beginners. Tcl/Tk was chosen >because I knew the language and it is freely available on any OS platform >including that dreaded Gatesware. > >I'd like to enhance this course material with Python/Tk examples in parallel >to Tcl/Tk. Unfortunately, I don't know Python sufficiently well to >author this material. > >If you are interested in volunteering your talents to this task please >contact me off list and we can discuss what I had in mind. Hi Bob, Others might find this useful so I will respond to the list. There are some good resources for learning Python programming and for learning how to program using Python. The book "Learn to Program Using Python" by Alan Gauld is excellent and would be suitable for anyone. "Learn to Think Like a Computer Scientist" is another good resource. Regards, Clifford Ilkay Dinamis Corporation 3266 Yonge Street, Suite 1419 Toronto, Ontario Canada M4N 3P6 Tel: 416-410-3326 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 8 23:44:54 2003 From: clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (CLIFFORD ILKAY) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 18:44:54 -0500 Subject: *Really* bad week for SCO In-Reply-To: <3FD4FC2C.50609-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <20031208170034.14835d7a.joehill@sympatico.ca> <20031208170034.14835d7a.joehill@sympatico.ca> <3FD4FC2C.50609@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20031208181944.0c83d4c8@localhost> At 17:33 08/12/2003 -0500, David J Patrick wrote: >JoeHill wrote: [snip] >>I think it's a good time to start selling any SCO stock you own... [snip] >That begs the question; are there any investment wizards in the group who >know how to "short" a stock and, thus" reap the reward for predicting SCOs >(and soon enough M$s) swan dive ? Shorting a stock is not difficult or require great financial wizardry. You just issue a sell order with your broker without owning any stock. Your broker in turn borrows the stock from someone who already owns it. You make money if the stock drops enough to cover your transaction costs and then some but only if you put in a buy order to negate your previous sell order. You will in all likelihood have to put up substantial margin though. Keep in mind a few things. First, there are people who trade stocks for a living and they have access at the very least to the same information you do. The current price for SCOX reflects their expectations. Second, another company coming along and taking SCO out might dash your dreams of becoming rich, rich, rich. Third, you have to analyze the risk/reward ratio. If the risk free yield is 3% today, you have to do much better than 3%, how much better is up to you, in order to make it worthwhile. Finally, unless you do this for a living, the odds are against you that you will make money doing this. You should avoid speculating with money that you cannot afford to lose. In other words, if you feel confident that this is a winning strategy, and you have analyzed the risk/reward ratio and determined that it is acceptable to you, and you are doing this with money you can afford to lose, by all means, go for it. Otherwise, you are just another sheep waiting to be sheared by the pros in the business. >Should we get a group thing going ? If you feel that strongly that shorting SCOX or MSFT is a good move, why wait for anyone else? You don't need a "group" to do this. >hmmmm ? >djp Regards, Clifford Ilkay Dinamis Corporation 3266 Yonge Street, Suite 1419 Toronto, Ontario Canada M4N 3P6 Tel: 416-410-3326 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 8 23:56:54 2003 From: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 18:56:54 -0500 (EST) Subject: Speaker Tommorrow Night In-Reply-To: References: <3FD4FB6C.6080407@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: On Mon, 8 Dec 2003, S P Arif Sahari Wibowo wrote: > Will there be any guest speaker tomorrow? > If yes, what will the speaker speak about? I've been unable to confirm the status of a guest speaker for tommorrow night. If we don't have a guest speaker, then come along with your juicy technical questions and we'll have a good Q/A session. If we get bored with this I'll do a quick impromptu talk on CIDR. I believe next month's spot is open - would anyone like to put their hand up to talk. If so, please email me privately. Even if you're a new user you can still do a talk, as sometimes the best person to explain something is someone who has just learnt it. Also, from now on talks will be limited to 90 minutes with a short 5 minute break half way through unless otherwise announced by the Talks Maintainer prior to the meeting. This is to give listeners a short break which is known to dramatically increase the listeners retention of the information. Talks which are known to be significantly longer than this should be broken up across 2 (or more) sessions. Rob -- Robert Brockway B.Sc. email: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org, zzbrock at uqconnect.net Linux counter project ID #16440 (http://counter.li.org) "The earth is but one country and mankind its citizens" -Baha'u'llah -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From aitken-BwLjziHGQLusTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 8 23:11:58 2003 From: aitken-BwLjziHGQLusTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Chris Aitken) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 18:11:58 -0500 Subject: *Really* bad week for SCO References: <20031208170034.14835d7a.joehill@sympatico.ca> <3FD4FC2C.50609@sympatico.ca> <20031208175301.13e73a43.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <3FD5053E.14FED3C0@onlink.net> JoeHill wrote: > [...] > > BTW, my ma was telling me she's already seen the IBM Linux ad, gave 'er chills Yeah, it does have a spooky feel to it. Chris [...] -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 9 00:07:02 2003 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 19:07:02 -0500 Subject: M$ to license FAT In-Reply-To: <20031208185522.GA407-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20031205212652.E63A0402B@cbbrowne.com> <20031208113447.B24061@algate.perlwolf.com> <20031208185522.GA407@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <3FD51226.4080309@rogers.com> William Park wrote: > On Mon, Dec 08, 2003 at 01:02:17PM -0500, Robert Brockway wrote: > >>Maybe the manufacturers of these devices will change to another >>filesytem (they can take their pick from many choices available in >>Linux & BSD) in order to avoid paying the licencing fees. > > > Wishful thinking... If you're selling $500 digital camera, would you be > complaining that you have to pay $0.25 license fee (or whatever it is)? > My impression was that it applies to the removable devices, such as the memory "disks". Incidenally, my camera uses 8.3 file names. Does that mean I can get my $0.25 back from his Billyness? ;-) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From blsonne-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 9 00:07:46 2003 From: blsonne-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Byron Sonne) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 19:07:46 -0500 Subject: *Really* bad week for SCO In-Reply-To: <20031208170034.14835d7a.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <20031208170034.14835d7a.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <3FD51252.5000207@rogers.com> > I think it's a good time to start selling any SCO stock you own... I'd be more interested if there was something we could do that would drive the price down, so that SCO investors and lawyers get as little money as possible. What can one person (or a small group) do to screw SCO/lawyers out of as much cash as possible? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From blsonne-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 9 00:08:47 2003 From: blsonne-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Byron Sonne) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 19:08:47 -0500 Subject: *Really* bad week for SCO In-Reply-To: <3FD5053E.14FED3C0-BwLjziHGQLusTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org> References: <20031208170034.14835d7a.joehill@sympatico.ca> <3FD4FC2C.50609@sympatico.ca> <20031208175301.13e73a43.joehill@sympatico.ca> <3FD5053E.14FED3C0@onlink.net> Message-ID: <3FD5128F.7090401@rogers.com> >> BTW, my ma was telling me she's already seen the IBM Linux ad, gave 'er chills > Yeah, it does have a spooky feel to it. Is this ad good or bad? Spooky can be a good feeling sometimes ;) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From linux-cOjNTMaGA5U at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 9 00:11:57 2003 From: linux-cOjNTMaGA5U at public.gmane.org (Ian Goldberg) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 19:11:57 -0500 Subject: *Really* bad week for SCO In-Reply-To: <3FD4FC2C.50609-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <20031208170034.14835d7a.joehill@sympatico.ca> <3FD4FC2C.50609@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <20031209001157.GL18242@paip.net> On Mon, Dec 08, 2003 at 05:33:16PM -0500, David J Patrick wrote: > That begs the question; are there any investment wizards in the group > who know how to "short" a stock and, thus" reap the reward for > predicting SCOs (and soon enough M$s) swan dive ? Shorting a stock is trivially easy. Just go to your friendly online broker website, and sell some. [Note: not all stocks are allowed to be shorted, but I don't think SCOX is one of them.] Shorting is nothing more than owning a negative number of shares of a stock. [Technically, owing a number of shares of a stock to some unspecified person, but you don't care who that person is.] When you sell 100 shares of SCOX at $15, you end up with $1500 and -100 shares of SCOX. If SCOX drops to $5, you buy back 100 shares of it for $500, and you've made a $1000 profit (and now have 0 shares of SCOX). But if instead, unbeknownst to everyone, SCOX has been using the lawsuit as a smokescreen to hide its super-secret research efforts into real-time widget operating systems, and announces the Best Thing Ever (TM), its stock price may jump to $50, and if you hold -100 of them, you'll now have to pay $5000 to close out your position, and you're in the hole big time. - Ian -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From blsonne-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 9 00:30:22 2003 From: blsonne-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Byron Sonne) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 19:30:22 -0500 Subject: *Really* bad week for SCO In-Reply-To: <20031209001157.GL18242-cOjNTMaGA5U@public.gmane.org> References: <20031208170034.14835d7a.joehill@sympatico.ca> <3FD4FC2C.50609@sympatico.ca> <20031209001157.GL18242@paip.net> Message-ID: <3FD5179E.3040909@rogers.com> > its stock price may jump to $50, and if you hold -100 of them, you'll > now have to pay $5000 to close out your position, and you're in the hole big > time. Does anyone have a link to a site or some docs that explain, to a putz like me, what all this various financial wizardry is? I've seen shorting briefly explained here, but what about kiting, selling on margin, etc, and various other techniques and scams? I'd like to know but I don't have the inclination to read entire books about this stuff, or become a CPA or something. Later, B -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From awh-z32R3RYGf1M at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 9 00:32:00 2003 From: awh-z32R3RYGf1M at public.gmane.org (Drew Hamilton) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 19:32:00 -0500 Subject: *Really* bad week for SCO In-Reply-To: <20031209001157.GL18242-cOjNTMaGA5U@public.gmane.org> References: <20031208170034.14835d7a.joehill@sympatico.ca> <3FD4FC2C.50609@sympatico.ca> <20031209001157.GL18242@paip.net> Message-ID: <20031209003200.GA2852%awh@awh.org> On Mon, Dec 08, 2003 at 07:11:57PM -0500, Ian Goldberg wrote: > Shorting a stock is trivially easy. Just go to your friendly online > broker website, and sell some. Assuming, of course, that you have a margin account and are approved for short selling. > [Note: not all stocks are allowed to be > shorted, but I don't think SCOX is one of them.] In Canada, I think that the IDA rule is that stocks less than about $3.00 can't be shorted. Of course individual dealers are allowed to set their rules to be more restrictive than the IDA's. > But if instead, unbeknownst to everyone, SCOX has been using the lawsuit > as a smokescreen to hide its super-secret research efforts into > real-time widget operating systems, and announces the Best Thing Ever (TM), > its stock price may jump to $50, and if you hold -100 of them, you'll > now have to pay $5000 to close out your position, and you're in the hole big > time. Yes. The problem with short selling is that there is a (theoretically) infinite exposure, and a maximum possible upside. With your original example, the maximum possible upside is the $1500 that you short-sold the stock for, since the stock price can't go negative (no matter how much some people on this list may pray). But theoretically the stock price could rise to infinity. This is why, if you're bearish on a particular stock, it may be better to buy put options. At least your loss is limited to the market value of the puts at the time of purchase. That said, the put options would have greater price volatility than the actual stock. - awh -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From aitken-BwLjziHGQLusTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 9 00:07:15 2003 From: aitken-BwLjziHGQLusTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Chris Aitken) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 19:07:15 -0500 Subject: quiet PC Message-ID: <3FD51233.6E2F5C25@onlink.net> I have a need for my PC to be quiet. This is for three reasons: I have tintinitus several times a day, and when I don't the PC reminds me what it's like - it's like tintinitus-on-demand. : / I am starting a business for which recording acoustic instruments will play a large part. My PC is exceptionally loud - so titinuitus or not, acoustic recording or not, it's damned loud. Has anyone had luck shutting their computer up? I have a lot of start up expenses - weighted 88-key keyboard, clarinet, etc. so I'll go to great lengths to quiet this one before I'll buy a new one. In the last home studio I had, I had the PC in a closet - but I'm tired of positioning my recording/PC station to the lowest common denominator (the short leash of mouse, keyboard, etc.) - it's just silly. I guess this is a rhetorical question: Is the fan the only thing that makes noise? I have three fans - CPU, chassis and removeable drive bay. I suspected it was the removeable drive bay, so I replaced it with another, identical bay. No improvement - of course that doesn't prove that the bay is not the culprit - this brand might just have a noisy fan assembly. And to be completely honest, the unwanted sounds were different (but not less) with the second bay than with the first. So, I guess my next step is to remove the bay and just install the hard drive the old-fashioned way (?). If that doesn't help it must be one of the other two fans (?). Or chip creep? What else is there? Also, I'll be in Toronto over Christmas and I could take the PC back to Honson - they built it for me. I hope they will work hard on it without soaking me as they built it. Chris Aitken -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From aitken-BwLjziHGQLusTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 9 00:20:08 2003 From: aitken-BwLjziHGQLusTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Chris Aitken) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 19:20:08 -0500 Subject: Reply To address messes with tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4@public.gmane.org Message-ID: <3FD51538.4968D7E0@onlink.net> I want the Reply To address on my outgoing email to be whatever-KpGSJ1HvxhMWgbWefVBuadBPR1lH4CV8 at public.gmane.org (doesn't matter what the 'whatever' is as labstudiofileld.com is just a parked domain which forwards any email ending with @labstudiofield.com to my subscription aitken-BwLjziHGQLusTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org). I tried this a while back and ran into problems sending/recieving email to/from tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org, if I recall correctly. Any ideas? I use Netscape email. Chris -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From aitken-BwLjziHGQLusTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 9 00:28:11 2003 From: aitken-BwLjziHGQLusTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Chris Aitken) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 19:28:11 -0500 Subject: central mail Message-ID: <3FD5171B.A49304B9@onlink.net> I have been using Netscape Messenger for email for some time. It has served me well. I now need to move to a system by which I can see the same email from two different PCs. Sounds like a simple thing but I have a feeling this is going to entail a huge learning curve and maybe even moving to a different email system. I don't even know where to start. I know that helpless newbies are not to be coddled on this list - I just need the first concept to investigate and then I'm sure that will have me chasing the right ideas - unless you know of a site called "Setting up Netscape Messenger to store the mail database centrally to be accessed from any linux PC on the network" (please Creator, let there be such a site!). : ) Chris -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 9 01:25:05 2003 From: fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Fraser Campbell) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 20:25:05 -0500 Subject: central mail In-Reply-To: <3FD5171B.A49304B9-BwLjziHGQLusTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FD5171B.A49304B9@onlink.net> Message-ID: <200312082025.05223.fraser@wehave.net> On December 8, 2003 07:28 pm, Chris Aitken wrote: > I now need to move to a system by which I can see the same > email from two different PCs. Use IMAP not POP. -- Fraser Campbell http://www.wehave.net/ Georgetown, Ontario, Canada Debian GNU/Linux -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 9 01:28:34 2003 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 20:28:34 -0500 Subject: central mail In-Reply-To: <3FD5171B.A49304B9-BwLjziHGQLusTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FD5171B.A49304B9@onlink.net> Message-ID: <3FD52542.4070506@rogers.com> Chris Aitken wrote: > I have been using Netscape Messenger for email for some time. > It has served me well. > > I now need to move to a system by which I can see the same > email from two different PCs. Sounds like a simple thing but I have > a feeling this is going to entail a huge learning curve and maybe even > moving to a different email system. > > I don't even know where to start. I know that helpless newbies are not > to be coddled on this list - I just need the first concept to > investigate > and then I'm sure that will have me chasing the right ideas - unless you > > know of a site called "Setting up Netscape Messenger to store the mail > database centrally to be accessed from any linux PC on the network" > (please Creator, let there be such a site!). : ) I have done just that. I can access my mail from any PC or almost any mail client. Install an imap mail server and use fetchmail to get your mail from a pop account. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From IlyaPalagin-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 9 01:31:37 2003 From: IlyaPalagin-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Ilya Palagin) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 20:31:37 -0500 Subject: central mail In-Reply-To: <3FD5171B.A49304B9-BwLjziHGQLusTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FD5171B.A49304B9@onlink.net> Message-ID: <3FD525F9.7010506@rogers.com> Chris Aitken wrote: ... > know of a site called "Setting up Netscape Messenger to store the mail > database centrally to be accessed from any linux PC on the network" > (please Creator, let there be such a site!). : ) The feature you need is called IMAP, and it has to be supported by your mail server. Your email client has to support IMAP as well, I'm not sure about Netscape, but Mozilla does it perfectly. Good news - IMAP service installation is simple and described on many sites. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From kmastin-PzQIwG9Jn9VAFePFGvp55w at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 9 01:16:19 2003 From: kmastin-PzQIwG9Jn9VAFePFGvp55w at public.gmane.org (Keith Mastin) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 20:16:19 -0500 (EST) Subject: quiet PC In-Reply-To: <3FD51233.6E2F5C25-BwLjziHGQLusTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FD51233.6E2F5C25@onlink.net> Message-ID: <1921.216.138.194.32.1070932579.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> > I guess this is a rhetorical question: Is the fan the only thing that > makes noise? I have three fans - CPU, chassis and removeable drive > bay. Unlock the bay and boot.. it will tell you almost right away in most cases. > I suspected it was the removeable drive bay, so I replaced it with > another, identical bay. No improvement - of course that doesn't > prove that the bay is not the culprit - this brand might just have > a noisy fan assembly. If it's a plastic bay with a fan in back, it's a good guess. I have a couple in a machine that start making hell's racket from time to time. Aluminum are the best, but if you tell the vendor about the quitness you're looking for they should be able to test it in front of you before you buy. > And to be completely honest, the unwanted sounds were different > (but not less) with the second bay than with the first. Drive bay. Your sound room should be isolated from the electronics in any event for best sound quality, especially with digital recording. Sometimes even an amp fan makes a difference. -- Keith -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 9 01:39:00 2003 From: phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org (Peter Hiscocks) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 20:39:00 -0500 Subject: quiet PC In-Reply-To: <3FD51233.6E2F5C25-BwLjziHGQLusTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org>; from aitken-BwLjziHGQLusTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org on Mon, Dec 08, 2003 at 07:07:15PM -0500 References: <3FD51233.6E2F5C25@onlink.net> Message-ID: <20031208203900.B4694@ee.ryerson.ca> I sympathise, many PC's these days are unbearably noisy. I got one that was unacceptably noisy and simply took it back to OTA the next day and asked for a quieter fan. They obliged. That's the easiest and simplest solution. Incidentally, a larger fan is quieter for the same volume of air because the fan blades can rotate more slowly. If a quiet fan isn't an option, there are ways to quiet the device. Basically, you have to put it in a sturdy enclosure with a labyrinth (a duct with bends in it) for the cooling air to pass through. The labyrinth is lined with absorbing material that absorbs the sound. You may have noticed a generator wagon on film shoots. The thing is generating thousands of watts of electricity from a diesel generator, there is a plum of exaust gas coming out the top, and it can hardly be heard at all. So it is absolutely possible to quiet a PC. If you like, I can provide more details, I used to do consulting in acoustics and noise reduction. Peter On Mon, Dec 08, 2003 at 07:07:15PM -0500, Chris Aitken wrote: > I have a need for my PC to be quiet. This is for three reasons: > > I have tintinitus several times a day, and when I don't the PC > reminds me what it's like - it's like tintinitus-on-demand. : / > > I am starting a business for which recording acoustic instruments > will play a large part. > > My PC is exceptionally loud - so titinuitus or not, acoustic recording > or not, it's damned loud. > > Has anyone had luck shutting their computer up? I have a lot of > start up expenses - weighted 88-key keyboard, clarinet, etc. so I'll go > to great lengths to quiet this one before I'll buy a new one. > > In the last home studio I had, I had the PC in a closet - but I'm tired > of positioning my recording/PC station to the lowest common > denominator (the short leash of mouse, keyboard, etc.) - it's > just silly. > > I guess this is a rhetorical question: Is the fan the only thing that > makes > noise? I have three fans - CPU, chassis and removeable drive bay. > > I suspected it was the removeable drive bay, so I replaced it with > another, > identical bay. No improvement - of course that doesn't prove that the > bay > is not the culprit - this brand might just have a noisy fan assembly. > And to > be completely honest, the unwanted sounds were different (but not less) > with the second bay than with the first. > > So, I guess my next step is to remove the bay and just install the hard > drive > the old-fashioned way (?). If that doesn't help it must be one of the > other two > fans (?). Or chip creep? What else is there? > > Also, I'll be in Toronto over Christmas and I could take the PC back to > Honson > - they built it for me. I hope they will work hard on it without soaking > me as they > built it. > > Chris Aitken > > > > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- Peter D. Hiscocks Department of Electrical and Computer Engineering Ryerson University, 350 Victoria Street, Toronto, Ontario, M5B 2K3, Canada Phone: (416) 979-5000 Ext 6109 Fax: (416) 979-5280 Email: phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org URL: http://www.ee.ryerson.ca/~phiscock -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From wmcgilvery-6d3DWWOeJtE at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 9 01:59:23 2003 From: wmcgilvery-6d3DWWOeJtE at public.gmane.org (Wil McGilvery) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 20:59:23 -0500 Subject: central mail Message-ID: <65B7B304AA3DE147BBD33938FE204E283191AC@lynchmail.lynch.msft> If you are using a mail service form an ISP, you may not be able to use IMAP. You would have to find out by asking. You can still use POP and admittedly, it is not as good a solution as IMAP, but it will work. You can configure your mail client to leave messages on the server for a number of days or forever depending on what you want to do. Just don't let your mailbox fill up. Then go and configure the other mail client to do the same. The draw back is that your address book, sent messages etc, are not shared, only your inbox. Regards, Wil McGilvery Manager Lynch Digital Media Inc 416-744-7949 416-716-3964 (cell) 1-866-314-4678 416-744-0406? FAX www.LynchDigital.com -----Original Message----- From: Ilya Palagin [mailto:IlyaPalagin-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org] Sent: Monday, December 08, 2003 8:32 PM To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Subject: Re: [TLUG]: central mail Chris Aitken wrote: ... > know of a site called "Setting up Netscape Messenger to store the mail > database centrally to be accessed from any linux PC on the network" > (please Creator, let there be such a site!). : ) The feature you need is called IMAP, and it has to be supported by your mail server. Your email client has to support IMAP as well, I'm not sure about Netscape, but Mozilla does it perfectly. Good news - IMAP service installation is simple and described on many sites. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 9 01:15:11 2003 From: john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (b1gsao75) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 20:15:11 -0500 Subject: central mail In-Reply-To: <3FD5171B.A49304B9-BwLjziHGQLusTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FD5171B.A49304B9@onlink.net> Message-ID: <3FD5221F.1010305@sympatico.ca> Chris Aitken wrote: >I have been using Netscape Messenger for email for some time. >It has served me well. > >I now need to move to a system by which I can see the same >email from two different PCs. Sounds like a simple thing but I have >a feeling this is going to entail a huge learning curve and maybe even >moving to a different email system. > >I don't even know where to start. I know that helpless newbies are not >to be coddled on this list - I just need the first concept to >investigate >and then I'm sure that will have me chasing the right ideas - unless you > >know of a site called "Setting up Netscape Messenger to store the mail >database centrally to be accessed from any linux PC on the network" >(please Creator, let there be such a site!). : ) > >Chris > > IMAP has been suggested, or you can set the local mail in Netscape preferences of both PCs to point to the same Mail directory. You need to set up permissions properly. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 9 01:16:25 2003 From: john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (b1gsao75) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 20:16:25 -0500 Subject: Reply To address messes with tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4@public.gmane.org In-Reply-To: <3FD51538.4968D7E0-BwLjziHGQLusTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FD51538.4968D7E0@onlink.net> Message-ID: <3FD52269.9060900@sympatico.ca> Chris Aitken wrote: >I want the Reply To address on my outgoing email to be >whatever-KpGSJ1HvxhMWgbWefVBuadBPR1lH4CV8 at public.gmane.org >(doesn't matter what the 'whatever' is as labstudiofileld.com is just a >parked domain >which forwards any email ending with @labstudiofield.com to my >subscription >aitken-BwLjziHGQLusTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org). > >I tried this a while back and ran into problems sending/recieving email >to/from tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org, >if I recall correctly. > >Any ideas? > >I use Netscape email. > It's done in the Preferences settings. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 9 02:10:03 2003 From: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 21:10:03 -0500 (EST) Subject: central mail In-Reply-To: <3FD525F9.7010506-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <3FD5171B.A49304B9@onlink.net> <3FD525F9.7010506@rogers.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 8 Dec 2003, Ilya Palagin wrote: > The feature you need is called IMAP, and it has to be supported by your Fortunately unix is built in a modular fashion so it just comes a matter of selecting the IMAP package of choice and installing it. > mail server. Your email client has to support IMAP as well, I'm not sure With the exception of the CLI tools mail & mailx I haven't see an MUA that didn't support IMAP in many years. > Good news - IMAP service installation is simple and described on many sites. Definately. It can be bandwidth intensive though so its use of a low pseed connection isn't recommended :) Rob -- Robert Brockway B.Sc. email: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org, zzbrock at uqconnect.net Linux counter project ID #16440 (http://counter.li.org) "The earth is but one country and mankind its citizens" -Baha'u'llah -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 9 02:25:04 2003 From: davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (David J Patrick) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 21:25:04 -0500 Subject: *Really* bad week for SCO In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20031208181944.0c83d4c8-bi+AKbBUZKZeoWH0uzbU5w@public.gmane.org> References: <20031208170034.14835d7a.joehill@sympatico.ca> <20031208170034.14835d7a.joehill@sympatico.ca> <5.2.0.9.0.20031208181944.0c83d4c8@localhost> Message-ID: <3FD53280.3030000@sympatico.ca> CLIFFORD ILKAY wrote: > [snip] > >> That begs the question; are there any investment wizards in the group >> who know how to "short" a stock and, thus" reap the reward for >> predicting SCOs (and soon enough M$s) swan dive ? > > > Shorting a stock is not difficult or require great financial wizardry. [snip] > Finally, unless you do this for a living, the odds are against you > that you will make money doing this. You should avoid speculating with > money that you cannot afford to lose. In other words, if you feel > confident that this is a winning strategy, and you have analyzed the > risk/reward ratio and determined that it is acceptable to you, and you > are doing this with money you can afford to lose, by all means, go for > it. Otherwise, you are just another sheep waiting to be sheared by the > pros in the business. > > I believe it was Mark Twain who said; "There are two times when a man shouldn't speculate; when he can't afford to and when he can." djp -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 9 02:29:11 2003 From: davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (David J Patrick) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 21:29:11 -0500 Subject: Speaker Tommorrow Night In-Reply-To: References: <3FD4FB6C.6080407@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <3FD53377.9030501@sympatico.ca> Robert Brockway wrote: >On Mon, 8 Dec 2003, S P Arif Sahari Wibowo wrote: > > > >>Will there be any guest speaker tomorrow? >>If yes, what will the speaker speak about? >> >> > >I've been unable to confirm the status of a guest speaker for tommorrow >night. If we don't have a guest speaker, then come along with your juicy >technical questions and we'll have a good Q/A session. > > > [snip] >Rob > > > If an opportunity presented itself, I'd like to talk a bit more about my (impending) linux WiFi caffe. I'll try to have a (little) bit of material prepared. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 9 02:52:20 2003 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 21:52:20 -0500 Subject: central mail In-Reply-To: <65B7B304AA3DE147BBD33938FE204E283191AC-49iW0tF5bQXl9+zcyUE9hx1TMoFmMu2o@public.gmane.org> References: <65B7B304AA3DE147BBD33938FE204E283191AC@lynchmail.lynch.msft> Message-ID: <3FD538E4.4010200@rogers.com> Fetchmail can be used to collect the mail from a POP server. Wil McGilvery wrote: > If you are using a mail service form an ISP, you may not be able to use IMAP. You would have to find out by asking. > > You can still use POP and admittedly, it is not as good a solution as IMAP, but it will work. > > You can configure your mail client to leave messages on the server for a number of days or forever depending on what you want to do. Just don't let your mailbox fill up. > > Then go and configure the other mail client to do the same. > > The draw back is that your address book, sent messages etc, are not shared, only your inbox. > > > Regards, > > Wil McGilvery > Manager > Lynch Digital Media Inc > > > > 416-744-7949 > 416-716-3964 (cell) > 1-866-314-4678 > 416-744-0406 FAX > www.LynchDigital.com > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Ilya Palagin [mailto:IlyaPalagin-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org] > Sent: Monday, December 08, 2003 8:32 PM > To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > Subject: Re: [TLUG]: central mail > > Chris Aitken wrote: > > ... > >>know of a site called "Setting up Netscape Messenger to store the mail >>database centrally to be accessed from any linux PC on the network" >>(please Creator, let there be such a site!). : ) > > > The feature you need is called IMAP, and it has to be supported by your > mail server. Your email client has to support IMAP as well, I'm not sure > about Netscape, but Mozilla does it perfectly. > > Good news - IMAP service installation is simple and described on many sites. > > > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 9 03:12:13 2003 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 22:12:13 -0500 Subject: central mail In-Reply-To: <3FD538E4.4010200-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <65B7B304AA3DE147BBD33938FE204E283191AC@lynchmail.lynch.msft> <3FD538E4.4010200@rogers.com> Message-ID: <3FD53D8D.7060304@rogers.com> Forgot to mention. All your folders can be stored on the imap server, so that your sent messages etc., are available on all systems. James Knott wrote: > Fetchmail can be used to collect the mail from a POP server. > > > Wil McGilvery wrote: > >> If you are using a mail service form an ISP, you may not be able to >> use IMAP. You would have to find out by asking. >> >> You can still use POP and admittedly, it is not as good a solution as >> IMAP, but it will work. >> >> You can configure your mail client to leave messages on the server for >> a number of days or forever depending on what you want to do. Just >> don't let your mailbox fill up. >> >> Then go and configure the other mail client to do the same. >> >> The draw back is that your address book, sent messages etc, are not >> shared, only your inbox. >> >> >> Regards, >> >> Wil McGilvery >> Manager >> Lynch Digital Media Inc >> >> >> 416-744-7949 >> 416-716-3964 (cell) >> 1-866-314-4678 >> 416-744-0406 FAX >> www.LynchDigital.com >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Ilya Palagin [mailto:IlyaPalagin-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org] Sent: Monday, >> December 08, 2003 8:32 PM >> To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org >> Subject: Re: [TLUG]: central mail >> >> Chris Aitken wrote: >> >> ... >> >>> know of a site called "Setting up Netscape Messenger to store the mail >>> database centrally to be accessed from any linux PC on the network" >>> (please Creator, let there be such a site!). : ) >> >> >> >> The feature you need is called IMAP, and it has to be supported by >> your mail server. Your email client has to support IMAP as well, I'm >> not sure about Netscape, but Mozilla does it perfectly. >> >> Good news - IMAP service installation is simple and described on many >> sites. >> >> >> >> -- >> The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org >> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml >> -- >> The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org >> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > > > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 9 03:22:19 2003 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 22:22:19 -0500 Subject: quiet PC In-Reply-To: <3FD51233.6E2F5C25-BwLjziHGQLusTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FD51233.6E2F5C25@onlink.net> Message-ID: <3FD53FEB.40808@alteeve.com> Hi, May I make a few suggestions? I build (and have been building) systems for some time now and to be honest the current crazy to stick a fan on everything (which I admit to being swpet up in a few years ago) is a waste for almost all applications. The hard drive cooling fan can almost certainly go. Even the Seagates, which I love and get notoriously hot, are fine without auxiliary cooling. Now I assume by chassis you mean the fan built into the power supply. Am I right or is there a seperate auxiliary case fan? At any rate, Antec Inc. makes an 80mm cooling fan with a hub-mounted thermistor that only raises the speed of the blades (and thereby the sound levels) when a certain thresh hold temperature is exceeded (lowest thresh hold is 20oC where it start to climb from 1630rpm @ 21dBA pushing 28CFM and climb up through to 50oC where it hits 2900rpm @ 34.5dba pushing 45CFM). Replacing the PSU fan with this one would require a little monkey work and would have to be comfortable working IN a power supply but if you know how to be safe around capacitors then it is a relatively easy hack. On the more expensive but easier front I would recommend the Antec VAR series SX1000 II mid tower chassis with an Antec TruePower 330 power supply. I build alot of boxes around that chassis and power supply and it is about as quiet as they get. In fact, if Micheal Galea here on the list is willing, he has one of my boxes with that chassis and PSU. It has two auxiliary 80mm fans that are powered by a variable speed circuit built into the PSU. It also has two more 80mm variable speed fans built into the PSU exhausting the chassis air in series. All this translaets to a chassis that exhausts plenty of air without producing virtually any noise. In fact, the CD-ROM spinning up usually doubles the audio pressure leaving the chassis :D. Madison Chris Aitken wrote: > I have a need for my PC to be quiet. This is for three reasons: > > I have tintinitus several times a day, and when I don't the PC > reminds me what it's like - it's like tintinitus-on-demand. : / > > I am starting a business for which recording acoustic instruments > will play a large part. > > My PC is exceptionally loud - so titinuitus or not, acoustic recording > or not, it's damned loud. > > Has anyone had luck shutting their computer up? I have a lot of > start up expenses - weighted 88-key keyboard, clarinet, etc. so I'll go > to great lengths to quiet this one before I'll buy a new one. > > In the last home studio I had, I had the PC in a closet - but I'm tired > of positioning my recording/PC station to the lowest common > denominator (the short leash of mouse, keyboard, etc.) - it's > just silly. > > I guess this is a rhetorical question: Is the fan the only thing that > makes > noise? I have three fans - CPU, chassis and removeable drive bay. > > I suspected it was the removeable drive bay, so I replaced it with > another, > identical bay. No improvement - of course that doesn't prove that the > bay > is not the culprit - this brand might just have a noisy fan assembly. > And to > be completely honest, the unwanted sounds were different (but not less) > with the second bay than with the first. > > So, I guess my next step is to remove the bay and just install the hard > drive > the old-fashioned way (?). If that doesn't help it must be one of the > other two > fans (?). Or chip creep? What else is there? > > Also, I'll be in Toronto over Christmas and I could take the PC back to > Honson > - they built it for me. I hope they will work hard on it without soaking > me as they > built it. > > Chris Aitken -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 9 03:42:21 2003 From: cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org (cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 22:42:21 -0500 Subject: M$ to license FAT In-Reply-To: Message from John Macdonald of "Mon, 08 Dec 2003 11:34:48 EST." <20031208113447.B24061-TU2q2He6PgRlD5gtYiU6kEEOCMrvLtNR@public.gmane.org> References: <20031205212652.E63A0402B@cbbrowne.com> <20031208113447.B24061@algate.perlwolf.com> Message-ID: <20031209034223.0979A46C9@cbbrowne.com> > On Mon, Dec 08, 2003 at 10:19:55AM -0500, Tim Writer wrote: > > cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org writes: > > > > > > As the title says. Impact on Linux ? > > > > > > If the claims are true, that there are "live" patents still in place on > > > FAT, then it is conceivable that there might be patent infringments, or > > > at least places where MSFT could _claim_ that there are. > > > > IANAL but, as I understand it, damages in a pattern infringement case are > > usually awarded on the basis of lost profit, i.e. the profit M$ would have > > made if it weren't for the infringement. Linux users who want access to > > their FAT files (from within Linux) aren't about to purchase an M$ product > > (or licensed product) since there's no product available with the > > required functionality. Consequently, while patents might have been > > infringed, damages are $0. > > That's fine for a dual boot Linux getting access to the licensed MS > file system, but if another poster was right about USD memory disks > and such devices using FAT, the "damage" is that you used a Linux > instead of buying Windows to read the USB device. > > Does anyone have any details of exactly what is patented and when the > patent(s) expire? What is Highly Curious is the fact that Atari was selling systems based on FAT filesystems probably fifteen years ago, and were never attacked for this. What is VERY interesting is that none of the patents in question have to do with the filesystem. They ALL have to do with the way DOS 6 started providing support for longer filenames. The patents date back to 1996, and every single one is about filenaming. 1 6,286,013 Method and system for providing a common name space for long and short file names in an operating system 2 5,758,352 Common name space for long and short filenames 3 5,745,902 Method and system for accessing a file using file names having different file name formats 4 5,579,517 Common name space for long and short filenames -- let name="cbbrowne" and tld="cbbrowne.com" in name ^ "@" ^ tld;; http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/advocacy.html :FATAL ERROR -- ILLEGAL ERROR -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 9 04:07:51 2003 From: colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 23:07:51 -0500 Subject: *Really* bad week for SCO References: <20031208170034.14835d7a.joehill@sympatico.ca> <20031208170034.14835d7a.joehill@sympatico.ca> <5.2.0.9.0.20031208181944.0c83d4c8@localhost> Message-ID: <00d501c3be0a$03def680$4201a8c0@ym.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> "CLIFFORD ILKAY" on Monday, December 08, 2003 6:44 PM wrote: > At 17:33 08/12/2003 -0500, David J Patrick wrote: > >JoeHill wrote: > [snip] > >>I think it's a good time to start selling any SCO stock you own... > [snip] > >That begs the question; are there any investment wizards in the group who > >know how to "short" a stock and, thus" reap the reward for predicting SCOs > >(and soon enough M$s) swan dive ? > > Shorting a stock is not difficult or require great financial wizardry. You > just issue a sell order with your broker without owning any stock. Your > broker in turn borrows the stock from someone who already owns it. You make > money if the stock drops enough to cover your transaction costs and then > some but only if you put in a buy order to negate your previous sell order. > You will in all likelihood have to put up substantial margin though. This topic has come up in places like slashdot.org. the above is as I understand things basically correct. What I gather is missing is all this is the fact that I gather SCO stock is not widely held enough to make shorting at all easy. In other words getting enough stock that you could short it would be an issue. The other point to note is that shorting places you in a situation of unlimited liability. Yes, like everyone else here (at least I hope like everyone else here) I expect that at some point soon SCO share certificates will make for good toilet paper (as that will be much they will be worth). The problem is that SCO may pull a few stunts (or get lucky (a drunk/stoned judge?)) along the way that will (for a time) cause the share price to spike up. Say for the sake of argument SCO manages to blackmail or bribe a judge in to letting them win round one, SCO share prices jump for $14 to $14,014, you expected SCO to drop to $10 by the time you had to deliver the shorted shares at $14. So on an order of 1000 shares, your out of pocket $14,000,000 instead of making $4,000. Obviously this is an extreme example, but shorting a stock is a MAJOR short term gamble on what is clearly a near certain long term event (the effective (or hopefully total) destruction of SCO). So, changing topic who here other than me has made money off SCO in the past month? I went out to the SCO City-to-City event and grabbed some free stuff, which I have in turn sold off via eBay (I've got a nice SCO T-Shirt if anyone wants to make me an offer (last one went for $51 (U.S.) on eBay)). Ok, so on a $/hour it has been a poor return, but I do take some pride in scoring a few bucks of SCO at effectively zero risk :-) . > Keep in mind a few things. First, there are people who trade stocks for a > living and they have access at the very least to the same information you > do. The current price for SCOX reflects their expectations. Second, another > company coming along and taking SCO out might dash your dreams of becoming > rich, rich, rich. Third, you have to analyze the risk/reward ratio. If the > risk free yield is 3% today, you have to do much better than 3%, how much > better is up to you, in order to make it worthwhile. Finally, unless you do > this for a living, the odds are against you that you will make money doing > this. You should avoid speculating with money that you cannot afford to > lose. In other words, if you feel confident that this is a winning > strategy, and you have analyzed the risk/reward ratio and determined that > it is acceptable to you, and you are doing this with money you can afford > to lose, by all means, go for it. Otherwise, you are just another sheep > waiting to be sheared by the pros in the business. > > >Should we get a group thing going ? > > If you feel that strongly that shorting SCOX or MSFT is a good move, why > wait for anyone else? You don't need a "group" to do this. > > >hmmmm ? > >djp > > Regards, > > Clifford Ilkay > Dinamis Corporation > 3266 Yonge Street, Suite 1419 > Toronto, Ontario > Canada M4N 3P6 > > Tel: 416-410-3326 > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 9 04:10:13 2003 From: davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (David J Patrick) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 23:10:13 -0500 Subject: Speaker Tommorrow Night In-Reply-To: References: <3FD4FB6C.6080407@sympatico.ca> <3FD53377.9030501@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <3FD54B25.3050906@sympatico.ca> Robert Brockway wrote: >How would you feel about fleshing the talk out and doing it as a full >scale talk next month rather than doing a quick one tommorrow night? > >If you'd rather do a quick one tommorrow night I'm happy with that also. > >Rob > > > I think doing it next month is probably a better idea. I will have my act (a little more) together and the reno will be closer to completion. Perhaps I might just reintroduce myself and my mission tomorrow. It's an interesting and complex challenge; A small neighborhood caffe, with coffee, panini and stuff. A website, a php jukebox and a WiFi access point (free with food) A handful of fixed terminals and laptops-for-rent. Point Of Sale, security systems and accounting all running as thin clients, on linux. For many people, it will be a first look at linux. If done properly it will be a showcase of gleaming eyecandy and brisk performance. if not; a demonstration of why only geeks would use that stuff. I plan to sell linux distributions and other open source software, in no frills packaging, fresh baked onsite. $6 ? I was even thinking of having a prominent grafitti artist paint Tux on a Harley outside. smoking tires tearing up a field of ones and zeros. f r e e c o d e As a system administrator, I am WAY over my head ! But as an open source junkie I'm convinced that it can be done and I sense that there is a community here, who would share the vision and pitch in. sysadmin 4 food ? espresssssso ?? It's an uphill battle getting this thing open on a shoestring budget. For the last fifteen years I've been a filmmaker, and now I find myself as restaurateur / entrepreneur. (it's a long story) Sun Tzu said "If you want an army to fight for you, burn the bridges behind them" Well, at the moment, I'm an army of one, and the smoke you see is (mostly) bridges.. .. i'm goin' in ! are ya with me ? (cue: bagpipes) thanks lads, seeya tomorrow night, djp -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lists-jiQtrEI3vUxWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 9 04:16:46 2003 From: lists-jiQtrEI3vUxWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (S P Arif Sahari Wibowo) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 23:16:46 -0500 (EST) Subject: central mail In-Reply-To: <3FD5171B.A49304B9-BwLjziHGQLusTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FD5171B.A49304B9@onlink.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 8 Dec 2003, Chris Aitken wrote: >I now need to move to a system by which I can see the same >email from two different PCs. If your e-mail provider provide IMAP service, just setup your MUA to use IMAP to access your e-mails. If not, then you can pull the mail to one computer using fetchmail, and then setup that computer to be IMAP server. Set the MUA on the other computer to access the email using IMAP. This assuming the other computer can connect to the first computer, either both in one LAN, or the first computer have real Internet address. -- Stephan Paul Arif Sahari Wibowo _____ _____ _____ _____ /____ /____/ /____/ /____ _____/ / / / _____/ http://www.arifsaha.com/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lists-jiQtrEI3vUxWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 9 04:19:52 2003 From: lists-jiQtrEI3vUxWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (S P Arif Sahari Wibowo) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 23:19:52 -0500 (EST) Subject: Question about the meeting In-Reply-To: <3FD4FB6C.6080407-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FD4FB6C.6080407@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: On Mon, 8 Dec 2003, David J Patrick wrote: >TTC to College & McCaul, then cut north into the University grounds.. > .. ask a fresh faced student how to get to the Galbraith building. Anybody have some estimate on how long it tooks for TTC from Don Mills Station? Thanks! -- Stephan Paul Arif Sahari Wibowo _____ _____ _____ _____ /____ /____/ /____/ /____ _____/ / / / _____/ http://www.arifsaha.com/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lists-jiQtrEI3vUxWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 9 04:24:04 2003 From: lists-jiQtrEI3vUxWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (S P Arif Sahari Wibowo) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 23:24:04 -0500 (EST) Subject: Speaker Tommorrow Night In-Reply-To: <3FD54B25.3050906-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FD4FB6C.6080407@sympatico.ca> <3FD53377.9030501@sympatico.ca> <3FD54B25.3050906@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: On Mon, 8 Dec 2003, David J Patrick wrote: >sysadmin 4 food ? espresssssso ?? Sounds good for me. :-) -- Stephan Paul Arif Sahari Wibowo _____ _____ _____ _____ /____ /____/ /____/ /____ _____/ / / / _____/ http://www.arifsaha.com/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From nastos-JAjqph6Yjy8fbXvGcxQkLSwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 9 04:29:46 2003 From: nastos-JAjqph6Yjy8fbXvGcxQkLSwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Fred (or Fotios) Nastos) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 23:29:46 -0500 Subject: Speaker Tommorrow Night In-Reply-To: <3FD54B25.3050906-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FD4FB6C.6080407@sympatico.ca> <3FD53377.9030501@sympatico.ca> <3FD54B25.3050906@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: > A small neighborhood caffe, with coffee, panini and stuff. > A website, a php jukebox and a WiFi access point (free with food) > A handful of fixed terminals and laptops-for-rent. > Point Of Sale, security systems and accounting > all running as thin clients, on linux. Maybe I missed it, but what's the location??? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From glayng-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 9 04:45:10 2003 From: glayng-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (Gary Layng) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 23:45:10 -0500 Subject: *Really* bad week for SCO In-Reply-To: <20031209001157.GL18242-cOjNTMaGA5U@public.gmane.org> References: <20031209001157.GL18242@paip.net> Message-ID: <000401c3be0f$3a2f9690$b151fea9@omoekane> To short a stock, first you need to find a broker with shares you can borrow. You don't just go up to the broker and say, "I want to sell shares I don't even own!" (You theoretically CAN do a "naked short", that is, short without having the shares, but that is for truly sophisticated investors who are essentially their own brokers. I strongly suspect the typical investor in this mailing list doesn't fit that description - I know I don't.) Now, many people on the SCOX board on Yahoo have been indicating they're finding it tough to get SCOX shares to short. Part of the reason is that short interest on this sucker is very high already, at around 22%. Another thing to consider is the danger of a "short squeeze", where the stock is pumped up to the skies in an effort to force shorts to cover at a high price (forcing the stock price even higher). This is a low-volume, easily manipulated stock, which makes the risks of a short squeeze very high. It is a wonderful stock to STAY THE H*LL AWAY FROM. His Lordship Mayhem -----Original Message----- From: owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org [mailto:owner-tlug at ss.org] On Behalf Of Ian Goldberg Sent: Monday, December 08, 2003 7:12 PM To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Subject: Re: [TLUG]: *Really* bad week for SCO On Mon, Dec 08, 2003 at 05:33:16PM -0500, David J Patrick wrote: > That begs the question; are there any investment wizards in the group > who know how to "short" a stock and, thus" reap the reward for > predicting SCOs (and soon enough M$s) swan dive ? Shorting a stock is trivially easy. Just go to your friendly online broker website, and sell some. [Note: not all stocks are allowed to be shorted, but I don't think SCOX is one of them.] Shorting is nothing more than owning a negative number of shares of a stock. [Technically, owing a number of shares of a stock to some unspecified person, but you don't care who that person is.] When you sell 100 shares of SCOX at $15, you end up with $1500 and -100 shares of SCOX. If SCOX drops to $5, you buy back 100 shares of it for $500, and you've made a $1000 profit (and now have 0 shares of SCOX). But if instead, unbeknownst to everyone, SCOX has been using the lawsuit as a smokescreen to hide its super-secret research efforts into real-time widget operating systems, and announces the Best Thing Ever (TM), its stock price may jump to $50, and if you hold -100 of them, you'll now have to pay $5000 to close out your position, and you're in the hole big time. - Ian -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From glayng-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 9 04:52:49 2003 From: glayng-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (Gary Layng) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 23:52:49 -0500 Subject: *Really* bad week for SCO In-Reply-To: <3FD5179E.3040909-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <3FD5179E.3040909@rogers.com> Message-ID: <000501c3be10$4b83d130$b151fea9@omoekane> I think I can google something up, but for now: - kiting is illegal. The scheme depends on how long it takes cheques to clear the central clearing facility that all banks share. Imagine you have two bank accounts with, say, $50 in each. You cut a cheque from your account in Bank 1 for, say, $5 million, and deposit it into the account you have in Bank 2. At the same time you also cut a cheque from the Bank 2 account and deposit it into the account in Bank 1. When the cheques clear, you have enough money to cover them. You get the interest on the $10 million dollars you had for two-three days in the two accounts. - Margin is perfectly legal. "On margin" means that you borrowed money from your broker to buy shares. Typically the broker lends you up to about 75% of the value of the shares. If the value of the shares drops 25% you get a "margin call" and they can sell the shares. You're leveraging your potential capital gains by borrowing the money, but it's quite dangerous. His Lordship Mayhem -----Original Message----- From: owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org [mailto:owner-tlug at ss.org] On Behalf Of Byron Sonne Sent: Monday, December 08, 2003 7:30 PM To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Subject: Re: [TLUG]: *Really* bad week for SCO > its stock price may jump to $50, and if you hold -100 of them, you'll > now have to pay $5000 to close out your position, and you're in the hole big > time. Does anyone have a link to a site or some docs that explain, to a putz like me, what all this various financial wizardry is? I've seen shorting briefly explained here, but what about kiting, selling on margin, etc, and various other techniques and scams? I'd like to know but I don't have the inclination to read entire books about this stuff, or become a CPA or something. Later, B -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 9 05:03:35 2003 From: phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org (Peter Hiscocks) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 00:03:35 -0500 Subject: Kiting: ( was *Really* bad week for SCO) In-Reply-To: <000501c3be10$4b83d130$b151fea9-/gZmskUKQAo@public.gmane.org>; from glayng-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org on Mon, Dec 08, 2003 at 11:52:49PM -0500 References: <3FD5179E.3040909@rogers.com> <000501c3be10$4b83d130$b151fea9@omoekane> Message-ID: <20031209000335.B8682@ee.ryerson.ca> I heard of one kiting scheme that was finally discovered when the magnetic ink on the cheque wore down to the point that it could no longer be read by the cheque-reading machines and had to be handled by a human. Apparently the cheque had been going back and forth across the continental US for several weeks before that happened. Peter On Mon, Dec 08, 2003 at 11:52:49PM -0500, Gary Layng wrote: > I think I can google something up, but for now: > - kiting is illegal. The scheme depends on how long it takes cheques to > clear the central clearing facility that all banks share. Imagine you have > two bank accounts with, say, $50 in each. You cut a cheque from your > account in Bank 1 for, say, $5 million, and deposit it into the account you > have in Bank 2. At the same time you also cut a cheque from the Bank 2 > account and deposit it into the account in Bank 1. When the cheques clear, > you have enough money to cover them. You get the interest on the $10 > million dollars you had for two-three days in the two accounts. > - Margin is perfectly legal. "On margin" means that you borrowed money > from your broker to buy shares. Typically the broker lends you up to about > 75% of the value of the shares. If the value of the shares drops 25% you > get a "margin call" and they can sell the shares. You're leveraging your > potential capital gains by borrowing the money, but it's quite dangerous. > > > His Lordship Mayhem > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org [mailto:owner-tlug at ss.org] On Behalf Of Byron Sonne > Sent: Monday, December 08, 2003 7:30 PM > To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > Subject: Re: [TLUG]: *Really* bad week for SCO > > > its stock price may jump to $50, and if you hold -100 of them, you'll > > now have to pay $5000 to close out your position, and you're in the hole > big > > time. > > Does anyone have a link to a site or some docs that explain, to a putz > like me, what all this various financial wizardry is? > > I've seen shorting briefly explained here, but what about kiting, > selling on margin, etc, and various other techniques and scams? I'd like > to know but I don't have the inclination to read entire books about this > stuff, or become a CPA or something. > > Later, > B > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- Peter D. Hiscocks Department of Electrical and Computer Engineering Ryerson University, 350 Victoria Street, Toronto, Ontario, M5B 2K3, Canada Phone: (416) 979-5000 Ext 6109 Fax: (416) 979-5280 Email: phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org URL: http://www.ee.ryerson.ca/~phiscock -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From glayng-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 9 05:18:13 2003 From: glayng-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (Gary Layng) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 00:18:13 -0500 Subject: Kiting: ( was *Really* bad week for SCO) In-Reply-To: <20031209000335.B8682-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w@public.gmane.org> References: <20031209000335.B8682@ee.ryerson.ca> Message-ID: <000801c3be13$d817f290$b151fea9@omoekane> That isn't precisely a kiting scheme, but it's pretty close. It's actually a computer fraud case. It depended on the technology of the time (the 1970's, I believe). He had a printer friend print cheques with the logo of the New York bank, but the bank identifier in the MICR code at the bottom was for a California bank. Those cheques went back and forth between the two Federal Reserve districts for months before the scheme was uncovered, by which time the perpetrator was long gone. Classic kiting is what brought down broker E.F. Hutton (remember their ads, "When E.F. Hutton speaks, people listen"?). This company was extremely old, dating back to before the 1907 California earthquake, and had a great reputation for honesty - at least until they got caught. It died ignominiously in the early 1980's. The guys running the scheme within the firm would scour the States for obscure little banks where the cheques would remain in the float as long as possible. It was quite the scandal at the time. His Lordship Mayhem -----Original Message----- From: owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org [mailto:owner-tlug at ss.org] On Behalf Of Peter Hiscocks Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2003 12:04 AM To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Subject: Re: [TLUG]: Kiting: ( was *Really* bad week for SCO) I heard of one kiting scheme that was finally discovered when the magnetic ink on the cheque wore down to the point that it could no longer be read by the cheque-reading machines and had to be handled by a human. Apparently the cheque had been going back and forth across the continental US for several weeks before that happened. Peter On Mon, Dec 08, 2003 at 11:52:49PM -0500, Gary Layng wrote: > I think I can google something up, but for now: > - kiting is illegal. The scheme depends on how long it takes cheques to > clear the central clearing facility that all banks share. Imagine you have > two bank accounts with, say, $50 in each. You cut a cheque from your > account in Bank 1 for, say, $5 million, and deposit it into the account you > have in Bank 2. At the same time you also cut a cheque from the Bank 2 > account and deposit it into the account in Bank 1. When the cheques clear, > you have enough money to cover them. You get the interest on the $10 > million dollars you had for two-three days in the two accounts. > - Margin is perfectly legal. "On margin" means that you borrowed money > from your broker to buy shares. Typically the broker lends you up to about > 75% of the value of the shares. If the value of the shares drops 25% you > get a "margin call" and they can sell the shares. You're leveraging your > potential capital gains by borrowing the money, but it's quite dangerous. > > > His Lordship Mayhem > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org [mailto:owner-tlug at ss.org] On Behalf Of Byron Sonne > Sent: Monday, December 08, 2003 7:30 PM > To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > Subject: Re: [TLUG]: *Really* bad week for SCO > > > its stock price may jump to $50, and if you hold -100 of them, you'll > > now have to pay $5000 to close out your position, and you're in the hole > big > > time. > > Does anyone have a link to a site or some docs that explain, to a putz > like me, what all this various financial wizardry is? > > I've seen shorting briefly explained here, but what about kiting, > selling on margin, etc, and various other techniques and scams? I'd like > to know but I don't have the inclination to read entire books about this > stuff, or become a CPA or something. > > Later, > B > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- Peter D. Hiscocks Department of Electrical and Computer Engineering Ryerson University, 350 Victoria Street, Toronto, Ontario, M5B 2K3, Canada Phone: (416) 979-5000 Ext 6109 Fax: (416) 979-5280 Email: phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org URL: http://www.ee.ryerson.ca/~phiscock -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jzygmont-tEQKYFGiemxAYG7eUwYNkWD2FQJk+8+b at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 9 06:34:39 2003 From: jzygmont-tEQKYFGiemxAYG7eUwYNkWD2FQJk+8+b at public.gmane.org (Justin Zygmont) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 01:34:39 -0500 (EST) Subject: Question about the meeting In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I live fairly close to there, i'd recommend an hour to be on the safe side. On Mon, 8 Dec 2003, S P Arif Sahari Wibowo wrote: > On Mon, 8 Dec 2003, David J Patrick wrote: > >TTC to College & McCaul, then cut north into the University grounds.. > > .. ask a fresh faced student how to get to the Galbraith building. > > Anybody have some estimate on how long it tooks for TTC from Don Mills > Station? > > Thanks! > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 9 07:25:42 2003 From: davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (David J Patrick) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 02:25:42 -0500 Subject: Caffe Bickford In-Reply-To: References: <3FD4FB6C.6080407@sympatico.ca> <3FD53377.9030501@sympatico.ca> <3FD54B25.3050906@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <3FD578F6.6040504@sympatico.ca> Fred (or Fotios) Nastos wrote: >>A small neighborhood caffe, with coffee, panini and stuff. >>A website, a php jukebox and a WiFi access point (free with food) >>A handful of fixed terminals and laptops-for-rent. >>Point Of Sale, security systems and accounting >>all running as thin clients, on linux. >> >> > >Maybe I missed it, but what's the location??? > You didn't miss it, I didn't give it; it's on the corner of Harbord & Grace, opening soon .. er .. eventually; Caffe Bickford. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 9 09:38:54 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 04:38:54 -0500 Subject: Reply To address messes with tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4@public.gmane.org In-Reply-To: <3FD51538.4968D7E0-BwLjziHGQLusTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FD51538.4968D7E0@onlink.net> Message-ID: <20031209043854.16db7505.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Mon, 08 Dec 2003 19:20:08 -0500 Chris Aitken wrote: > I tried this a while back and ran into problems sending/recieving email > to/from tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org, > if I recall correctly. > > Any ideas? The problem is, if people don't notice, or don't have their mail client set up to override this, the responses to your post(s) will go directly to you instead of to the list. The people who *do* notice and/or have their client set up to override your reply-to, well, you get the idea. Your only hope, AFAIK, is that people will reply to your post with a cc to the list. Unless I'm *completely* misunderstanding you, which is a common thing for me, it's just not a Good Thing on mailing lists. I'm hoping that this response will not result in you making threats about coming to my house and doing me harm, which is what happened on another list when I questioned someone's use of this setting :-D -- JoeHill ++ ICQ # 280779813 Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "Reality is what you can get away with." -- Robert Anton Wilson -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 9 09:54:38 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 04:54:38 -0500 Subject: Speaker Tommorrow Night In-Reply-To: <3FD54B25.3050906-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FD4FB6C.6080407@sympatico.ca> <3FD53377.9030501@sympatico.ca> <3FD54B25.3050906@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <20031209045438.200dc1c4.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Mon, 08 Dec 2003 23:10:13 -0500 David J Patrick wrote: > It's an uphill battle getting this thing open on a shoestring budget. > For the last fifteen years I've been a filmmaker, and now I find myself > as restaurateur / entrepreneur. > (it's a long story) > Sun Tzu said "If you want an army to fight for you, burn the bridges > behind them" > Well, at the moment, I'm an army of one, and the smoke you see is > (mostly) bridges.. > .. i'm goin' in ! > are ya with me ? I swore I would never ever work in the food-service industry again, but I would gladly bus tables for slave wages in a place like that, as long as you occasionally undid my chains and let me play with the hardware. ...and I *promise* not to organize a union ;-) -- JoeHill ++ ICQ # 280779813 Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "Where the state begins, individual liberty ceases, and vice versa." -- Bakunin -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 9 10:03:10 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 05:03:10 -0500 Subject: *Really* bad week for SCO In-Reply-To: <3FD5128F.7090401-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <20031208170034.14835d7a.joehill@sympatico.ca> <3FD4FC2C.50609@sympatico.ca> <20031208175301.13e73a43.joehill@sympatico.ca> <3FD5053E.14FED3C0@onlink.net> <3FD5128F.7090401@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20031209050310.36775c99.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Mon, 08 Dec 2003 19:08:47 -0500 Byron Sonne wrote: > >> BTW, my ma was telling me she's already seen the IBM Linux ad, gave 'er > >chills > > Yeah, it does have a spooky feel to it. > > Is this ad good or bad? Spooky can be a good feeling sometimes ;) I bet it's more than a *little* spooky for the fine folks at SCO and MS, :-D -- JoeHill ++ ICQ # 280779813 Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "I'm even lethal when I'm unarmed, 'cuz I'm louder than a bomb!" -- Chuck D. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 9 10:06:38 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 05:06:38 -0500 Subject: *Really* bad week for SCO In-Reply-To: <00d501c3be0a$03def680$4201a8c0-ki0Zr782rhv/m7utMz5sVUHTeQkJkYumVpNB7YpNyf8@public.gmane.org> References: <20031208170034.14835d7a.joehill@sympatico.ca> <20031208170034.14835d7a.joehill@sympatico.ca> <5.2.0.9.0.20031208181944.0c83d4c8@localhost> <00d501c3be0a$03def680$4201a8c0@ym.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> Message-ID: <20031209050638.2830b51f.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Mon, 8 Dec 2003 23:07:51 -0500 "Colin McGregor" wrote: > The problem is that SCO may pull a few stunts (or get lucky (a > drunk/stoned judge?)) along the way that will (for a time) cause the share > price to spike up. Or just as bad for the person attempting this "shorting", a buyout. MS puts up x millions of dollars to buy up a controlling stake in SCO, and you just lost your shorts (pun intended). -- JoeHill ++ ICQ # 280779813 Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." -- Hunter S. Thompson -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From teddymills-VFlxZYho3OA at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 9 12:22:19 2003 From: teddymills-VFlxZYho3OA at public.gmane.org (Teddy Mills) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 07:22:19 -0500 Subject: Looking for 270 or 540MB IDE drives Message-ID: <000601c3be4f$18124450$0301a8c0@amazon> I need a few 270 or 540MB IDEs for router projects. Please email me at teddymills-VFlxZYho3OA at public.gmane.org, if you are downtown Toronto and have access to a few of these. (2 to N drives) or know of a place where I can get some of these. Most people would be throwing these things away. --------------------------------------------------------------- teddy mills http://www.vger.ca VGER directives...To collect...all that is collectable. To sell...all that is saleable.To merchandise...all that is merchandisable. Family Guys, Quagmire "allllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll right" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From aitken-BwLjziHGQLusTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 9 11:58:02 2003 From: aitken-BwLjziHGQLusTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Chris Aitken) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 06:58:02 -0500 Subject: central mail References: <65B7B304AA3DE147BBD33938FE204E283191AC@lynchmail.lynch.msft> <3FD538E4.4010200@rogers.com> Message-ID: <3FD5B8CA.6C05D871@onlink.net> James Knott wrote: > Fetchmail can be used to collect the mail from a POP server. So, the pop server would be pop3.onlink.net as per usual? But the mail clients would be Fetchmail? Chris -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From aitken-BwLjziHGQLusTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 9 11:59:55 2003 From: aitken-BwLjziHGQLusTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Chris Aitken) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 06:59:55 -0500 Subject: central mail References: <65B7B304AA3DE147BBD33938FE204E283191AC@lynchmail.lynch.msft> <3FD538E4.4010200@rogers.com> <3FD53D8D.7060304@rogers.com> Message-ID: <3FD5B93B.4911384B@onlink.net> James Knott wrote: > Forgot to mention. All your folders can be stored on the imap server, So, the imap server, of course, is one of my PCs. And it will download mail from pop3.onlink.net as per some schedule or on demand or whatever.... > > so that your sent messages etc., are available on all systems. I see. Chris -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From aitken-BwLjziHGQLusTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 9 12:23:02 2003 From: aitken-BwLjziHGQLusTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Chris Aitken) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 07:23:02 -0500 Subject: quiet PC References: <3FD51233.6E2F5C25@onlink.net> <3FD53FEB.40808@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <3FD5BEA6.7CB4B4C@onlink.net> Madison Kelly wrote: > Hi, > > May I make a few suggestions? > > I build (and have been building) systems for some time now and to be > honest the current crazy to stick a fan on everything (which I admit to > being swpet up in a few years ago) is a waste for almost all > applications. The hard drive cooling fan can almost certainly go. Even > the Seagates, which I love and get notoriously hot, are fine without > auxiliary cooling. > > Now I assume by chassis you mean the fan built into the power supply. Yeah - you're right - it's not on the chassis - it's attached to the power supply. > > Am I right or is there a seperate auxiliary case fan? Interestingly enough, no. Odd for a full tower (maybe two feet tall), no? > At any rate, Antec > Inc. makes an 80mm cooling fan with a hub-mounted thermistor that only > raises the speed of the blades (and thereby the sound levels) when a > certain thresh hold temperature is exceeded (lowest thresh hold is 20oC > where it start to climb from 1630rpm @ 21dBA pushing 28CFM and climb up > through to 50oC where it hits 2900rpm @ 34.5dba pushing 45CFM). > Replacing the PSU fan with this one would require a little monkey work > and would have to be comfortable working IN a power supply but if you > know how to be safe around capacitors then it is a relatively easy hack. > > On the more expensive but easier front I would recommend the Antec > VAR series SX1000 II mid tower chassis with an Antec TruePower 330 power > supply. I build alot of boxes around that chassis and power supply and > it is about as quiet as they get. In fact, if Micheal Galea here on the > list is willing, he has one of my boxes with that chassis and PSU. It > has two auxiliary 80mm fans that are powered by a variable speed circuit > built into the PSU. It also has two more 80mm variable speed fans built > into the PSU exhausting the chassis air in series. All this translaets > to a chassis that exhausts plenty of air without producing virtually any > noise. In fact, the CD-ROM spinning up usually doubles the audio > pressure leaving the chassis :D. Well, thanks for all the information here. I'll print this out and take it with me to Honson - I'll probably get them to do this. I'm up in Timmins now - I guess I should really develop a relationship with a PC store up here. Chris -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lada-h8kxHjy+vg4AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 9 13:19:14 2003 From: lada-h8kxHjy+vg4AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ladislav Svatos) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 08:19:14 -0500 Subject: quiet PC In-Reply-To: <3FD53FEB.40808-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <3FD51233.6E2F5C25@onlink.net> <3FD53FEB.40808@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <200312090819.15114.lada@agawa.com> On December 8, 2003 10:22 pm, Madison Kelly wrote: > Hi, > > May I make a few suggestions? > ......... > Madison > The most noisiest fan on my computer is the CPU fan. What do you recommend for a CPU fan? Lada -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From aitken-BwLjziHGQLusTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 9 12:32:06 2003 From: aitken-BwLjziHGQLusTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Chris Aitken) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 07:32:06 -0500 Subject: Reply To address messes with tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4@public.gmane.org References: <3FD51538.4968D7E0@onlink.net> <20031209043854.16db7505.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <3FD5C0C6.F15DC078@onlink.net> JoeHill wrote: > On Mon, 08 Dec 2003 19:20:08 -0500 > Chris Aitken wrote: > > > I tried this a while back and ran into problems sending/recieving email > > to/from tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org, > > if I recall correctly. > > > > Any ideas? > > The problem is, if people don't notice, or don't have their mail client set up > to override this, the responses to your post(s) will go directly to you instead > of to the list. Riiiight - I see. > The people who *do* notice and/or have their client set up to > override your reply-to, well, you get the idea. Your only hope, AFAIK, is that > people will reply to your post with a cc to the list. Yeah, no I can't rely on a solution from the sender. > Unless I'm *completely* misunderstanding you, which is a common thing for > me, it's just not a Good Thing on mailing lists. OK - maybe I'll have to switch to Mozilla from Netscape so I can use profiles - then I'll have one profile for sending/receiving from/to my business, and another for tlug. > I'm hoping that this response will not result in you making threats about coming > to my house and doing me harm, which is what happened on another list when I > questioned someone's use of this setting :-D I don't think I'm confident enough in any of the concepts surrounding email to be offended. I might hurt you then realize later it was my stupidity not yours. : ) THis is all making sense about 70%. But when I post to the list now, I get replied to the list, not me. So, why, if I change the Reply To address will the sender at the other end now send to me not the list? [I think you'll be visiting *me* with a baseball bat - and not for baseball. ; ) Chris -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 9 14:00:55 2003 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 09:00:55 -0500 Subject: quiet PC In-Reply-To: <200312090819.15114.lada-h8kxHjy+vg4AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <3FD51233.6E2F5C25@onlink.net> <3FD53FEB.40808@alteeve.com> <200312090819.15114.lada@agawa.com> Message-ID: <3FD5D597.208@alteeve.com> What CPU and is the Heat Sink and FAN supplied by the manufacturere (AMD or Intel)? Madison Ladislav Svatos wrote: > On December 8, 2003 10:22 pm, Madison Kelly wrote: > >>Hi, >> >> May I make a few suggestions? >> ......... >>Madison >> > > The most noisiest fan on my computer is the CPU fan. What do you recommend for > a CPU fan? > > Lada > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From sidney-3Kd7Tu4o6f/sBN0MCq728g at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 9 14:12:01 2003 From: sidney-3Kd7Tu4o6f/sBN0MCq728g at public.gmane.org (Sidney Shapiro) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 09:12:01 -0500 Subject: quiet PC In-Reply-To: <3FD5BEA6.7CB4B4C-BwLjziHGQLusTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FD5BEA6.7CB4B4C@onlink.net> Message-ID: <008201c3be5e$6d9ced30$6401a8c0@main> > Well, thanks for all the information here. I'll print this out and take it > with > me to Honson - I'll probably get them to do this. I'm up in Timmins now - > I > guess I should really develop a relationship with a PC store up here. > > Chris The store in Timmins in the 101, as well as on Algonquin is terrible, expensive and very limited to what they carry. If it's more than a mouse or a keyboard, it's probably better to get it shipped up from Toronto. Sid -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From tchitow-PkbjNfxxIARBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 9 14:19:18 2003 From: tchitow-PkbjNfxxIARBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Martin Duclos) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 09:19:18 -0500 Subject: share the vision and pitch in Message-ID: I may be tempted to offer a helping hand. Martin Duclos tchitow-PkbjNfxxIARBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Robert Brockway wrote: >How would you feel about fleshing the talk out and doing it as a full >scale talk next month rather than doing a quick one tommorrow night? > >If you'd rather do a quick one tommorrow night I'm happy with that also. > >Rob > > > I think doing it next month is probably a better idea. I will have my act (a little more) together and the reno will be closer to completion. Perhaps I might just reintroduce myself and my mission tomorrow. It's an interesting and complex challenge; A small neighborhood caffe, with coffee, panini and stuff. A website, a php jukebox and a WiFi access point (free with food) A handful of fixed terminals and laptops-for-rent. Point Of Sale, security systems and accounting all running as thin clients, on linux. For many people, it will be a first look at linux. If done properly it will be a showcase of gleaming eyecandy and brisk performance. if not; a demonstration of why only geeks would use that stuff. I plan to sell linux distributions and other open source software, in no frills packaging, fresh baked onsite. $6 ? I was even thinking of having a prominent grafitti artist paint Tux on a Harley outside. smoking tires tearing up a field of ones and zeros. f r e e c o d e As a system administrator, I am WAY over my head ! But as an open source junkie I'm convinced that it can be done and I sense that there is a community here, who would share the vision and pitch in. sysadmin 4 food ? espresssssso ?? It's an uphill battle getting this thing open on a shoestring budget. For the last fifteen years I've been a filmmaker, and now I find myself as restaurateur / entrepreneur. (it's a long story) Sun Tzu said "If you want an army to fight for you, burn the bridges behind them" Well, at the moment, I'm an army of one, and the smoke you see is (mostly) bridges.. .. i'm goin' in ! are ya with me ? (cue: bagpipes) thanks lads, seeya tomorrow night, djp -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/bcomm&pgmarket=en-ca&RU=http%3a%2f%2fjoin.msn.com%2f%3fpage%3dmisc%2fspecialoffers%26pgmarket%3den-ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 9 14:20:00 2003 From: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 09:20:00 -0500 (EST) Subject: Looking for 270 or 540MB IDE drives In-Reply-To: <000601c3be4f$18124450$0301a8c0-vAnPq90cUBg@public.gmane.org> References: <000601c3be4f$18124450$0301a8c0@amazon> Message-ID: On Tue, 9 Dec 2003, Teddy Mills wrote: > I need a few 270 or 540MB IDEs for router projects. > Please email me at teddymills-VFlxZYho3OA at public.gmane.org, if you are downtown Toronto and have > access to a few of these. (2 to N drives) > or know of a place where I can get some of these. Most people would be > throwing these things away. Quite a lot of them would now be failing too. Floppy/CD based routers aren't an option? Rob -- Robert Brockway B.Sc. email: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org, zzbrock at uqconnect.net Linux counter project ID #16440 (http://counter.li.org) "The earth is but one country and mankind its citizens" -Baha'u'llah -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From aitken-BwLjziHGQLusTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 9 13:38:59 2003 From: aitken-BwLjziHGQLusTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Chris Aitken) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 08:38:59 -0500 Subject: quiet PC References: <3FD51233.6E2F5C25@onlink.net> <3FD53FEB.40808@alteeve.com> <200312090819.15114.lada@agawa.com> Message-ID: <3FD5D073.22C6E16@onlink.net> Ladislav Svatos wrote: > On December 8, 2003 10:22 pm, Madison Kelly wrote: > > Hi, > > > > May I make a few suggestions? > > ......... > > Madison > > > The most noisiest fan on my computer is the CPU fan. What do you recommend for > a CPU fan? I think that's the culprit on mine as well. I took the drive bay out this morning and it's quieter but not quiet enough. I think the fan is just dying. Chris -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 9 14:41:11 2003 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 09:41:11 -0500 Subject: quiet PC In-Reply-To: <3FD5D073.22C6E16-BwLjziHGQLusTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FD51233.6E2F5C25@onlink.net> <3FD53FEB.40808@alteeve.com> <200312090819.15114.lada@agawa.com> <3FD5D073.22C6E16@onlink.net> Message-ID: <3FD5DF07.7080200@alteeve.com> Is the fan making a kind of sound that sometimes goes away and comes back again, or is consistent? This happens when sleeve-bearing fans (very common) "spin-out", meaning the the sleeve that contains the fluid bearing oil wears through and the oil spins-out, leaving no protectiong against friction. This will in short order cause the fan to seize or stop spinning entirely. Madison Chris Aitken wrote: > Ladislav Svatos wrote: > > >>On December 8, 2003 10:22 pm, Madison Kelly wrote: >> >>>Hi, >>> >>> May I make a few suggestions? >>> ......... >>>Madison >>> >> >>The most noisiest fan on my computer is the CPU fan. What do you recommend for >>a CPU fan? > > > I think that's the culprit on mine as well. I took the drive bay out this morning > and it's > quieter but not quiet enough. I think the fan is just dying. > > Chris > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 9 14:40:28 2003 From: davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (David J Patrick) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 09:40:28 -0500 Subject: Speaker Tommorrow Night In-Reply-To: <20031209045438.200dc1c4.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FD4FB6C.6080407@sympatico.ca> <3FD53377.9030501@sympatico.ca> <3FD54B25.3050906@sympatico.ca> <20031209045438.200dc1c4.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <3FD5DEDC.3020503@sympatico.ca> JoeHill wrote: > > >I swore I would never ever work in the food-service industry again, but I would >gladly bus tables for slave wages in a place like that, as long as you >occasionally undid my chains and let me play with the hardware. > >...and I *promise* not to organize a union ;-) > > SURE Joe, you ALWAYS say that, and then BAM we're all wearing identical hemp dungarees and calling each other "commerade" your regular table, mr. Hill ? djp -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From IlyaPalagin-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 9 14:43:48 2003 From: IlyaPalagin-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Ilya Palagin) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 09:43:48 -0500 Subject: quiet PC In-Reply-To: <200312090819.15114.lada-h8kxHjy+vg4AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <3FD51233.6E2F5C25@onlink.net> <3FD53FEB.40808@alteeve.com> <200312090819.15114.lada@agawa.com> Message-ID: <3FD5DFA4.7010202@rogers.com> Ladislav Svatos wrote: > On December 8, 2003 10:22 pm, Madison Kelly wrote: > >>Hi, >> >> May I make a few suggestions? >> ......... >>Madison >> > > The most noisiest fan on my computer is the CPU fan. What do you recommend for > a CPU fan? > > Lada I've seen computers (can't remember the brand, either IBM or Compaq), which had just one fan - in the power supply. There was a huge heat sink on the CPU, and it was located in the front of the power supply to be blown out by its fan. That machine was _quite_. Unfortunately, this solution requires non-standard case for computer and power supply. A useful recommendation for a CPU's and other fans: have a motherboard, which tunes rotating speed depending on temperature. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lists-tZhE6lH4Esk+k03BA+Hq9g at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 9 14:44:01 2003 From: lists-tZhE6lH4Esk+k03BA+Hq9g at public.gmane.org (Oliver Meyn) Date: 09 Dec 2003 09:44:01 -0500 Subject: Reply To address messes with tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4@public.gmane.org In-Reply-To: <3FD5C0C6.F15DC078-BwLjziHGQLusTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FD51538.4968D7E0@onlink.net> <20031209043854.16db7505.joehill@sympatico.ca> <3FD5C0C6.F15DC078@onlink.net> Message-ID: <1070981041.4348.29.camel@theconstruct.mineallmeyn.net> Hi All, On Tue, 2003-12-09 at 07:32, Chris Aitken wrote: > OK - maybe I'll have to switch to Mozilla from Netscape so I can use profiles - > then I'll have one profile for sending/receiving from/to my business, and another > for > tlug. If you're going to make the move to another mail client may I suggest Evolution for just this sort of thing. If you can spare a separate email address for just receiving list mail then evolution has a very slick way of letting you switch between accounts for sending. Cheers, Oliver -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From taavi-LbuTpDkqzNzXI80/IeQp7B2eb7JE58TQ at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 9 14:50:47 2003 From: taavi-LbuTpDkqzNzXI80/IeQp7B2eb7JE58TQ at public.gmane.org (Taavi Burns) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 09:50:47 -0500 Subject: M$ to license FAT In-Reply-To: <20031209034223.0979A46C9-xzRQuAxiFLNWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org> References: <20031205212652.E63A0402B@cbbrowne.com> <20031208113447.B24061@algate.perlwolf.com> <20031209034223.0979A46C9@cbbrowne.com> Message-ID: <20031209145047.GF2033@hatefulsheep> On Mon, Dec 08, 2003 at 10:42:21PM -0500, cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org wrote: > What is VERY interesting is that none of the patents in question have to > do with the filesystem. They ALL have to do with the way DOS 6 started DOS provided long filename support? Not that I remember. It all started with Windows 95. -- taa /*eof*/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From wmcgilvery-6d3DWWOeJtE at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 9 14:48:04 2003 From: wmcgilvery-6d3DWWOeJtE at public.gmane.org (Wil McGilvery) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 09:48:04 -0500 Subject: quiet PC Message-ID: <65B7B304AA3DE147BBD33938FE204E283191B0@lynchmail.lynch.msft> If noise is an issue, and if you have an extra pc, why not use terminal services and set up a dumb terminal in the area where noise is a problem. Someone correct me if I am wrong, but if you boot from a floppy and leave the cover off, you don't really need the fan on the power supply. Regards, Wil McGilvery Manager Lynch Digital Media Inc 416-744-7949 416-716-3964 (cell) 1-866-314-4678 416-744-0406? FAX www.LynchDigital.com -----Original Message----- From: Chris Aitken [mailto:aitken-BwLjziHGQLusTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org] Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2003 8:39 AM To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Subject: [TLUG]: quiet PC Ladislav Svatos wrote: > On December 8, 2003 10:22 pm, Madison Kelly wrote: > > Hi, > > > > May I make a few suggestions? > > ......... > > Madison > > > The most noisiest fan on my computer is the CPU fan. What do you recommend for > a CPU fan? I think that's the culprit on mine as well. I took the drive bay out this morning and it's quieter but not quiet enough. I think the fan is just dying. Chris -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lada-h8kxHjy+vg4AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 9 15:09:55 2003 From: lada-h8kxHjy+vg4AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ladislav Svatos) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 10:09:55 -0500 Subject: quiet PC In-Reply-To: <3FD5D597.208-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <3FD51233.6E2F5C25@onlink.net> <200312090819.15114.lada@agawa.com> <3FD5D597.208@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <200312091009.56074.lada@agawa.com> On December 9, 2003 09:00 am, Madison Kelly wrote: > What CPU and is the Heat Sink and FAN supplied by the manufacturere (AMD > or Intel)? > > Madison > > I have an AMD processor and the noise is not that bad. The motherboard is an old Asus A7V. The motherboard supports fan speed control, but it never actually worked. Asus probably got it working in later versions of the MB. I would like to know what are the thermal solutions for new CPUs having to dissipate 100W of heat. Lada -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 9 15:15:08 2003 From: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 10:15:08 -0500 (EST) Subject: central mail In-Reply-To: <3FD5B8CA.6C05D871-BwLjziHGQLusTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org> References: <65B7B304AA3DE147BBD33938FE204E283191AC@lynchmail.lynch.msft> <3FD538E4.4010200@rogers.com> <3FD5B8CA.6C05D871@onlink.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 9 Dec 2003, Chris Aitken wrote: > James Knott wrote: > > > Fetchmail can be used to collect the mail from a POP server. > > So, the pop server would be pop3.onlink.net as per usual? > > But the mail clients would be Fetchmail? Hi Chris. Fetchmail is a pop3 client (actually it does other protocols as well). It will pull your mail from your ISP (or whereever) and send it to a local MTA (mail trasport agent like Sendmail or Postfix) ... The MTA runs on the box you want to hold your mail on (your mail server) and is fed by fetchmail. Popclient (fetchmail's predecessor) didn't send mail to an MTA but instead write it directly into people's mailboxes. This was far less flexible. Your mail server can hand mail out to your other machines in a variety of ways, but IMAP would seem to be most suitable for your needs (as others have noted). If you are stating to play with mail there are a few terms it is worth knowing (in addition to MTA above): MDA: Mail Delivery Agent. A utility designed to delivery mail locally. There are lots of these. In recent years I've been using procmail as an MDA for Sendmail. MUA: Mail User Agent. Sometimes called a Mail Client but MUA is the better term. This is the thing the user interacts with to read mail. Rob -- Robert Brockway B.Sc. email: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org, zzbrock at uqconnect.net Linux counter project ID #16440 (http://counter.li.org) "The earth is but one country and mankind its citizens" -Baha'u'llah -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jmyshrall-6duGhz7i8susTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 9 15:32:53 2003 From: jmyshrall-6duGhz7i8susTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (John Myshrall) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 10:32:53 -0500 Subject: M$ to license FAT In-Reply-To: <20031209145047.GF2033-9xiANKxwco6iqb11nhpoTg@public.gmane.org> References: <20031205212652.E63A0402B@cbbrowne.com> <20031208113447.B24061@algate.perlwolf.com> <20031209034223.0979A46C9@cbbrowne.com> <20031209145047.GF2033@hatefulsheep> Message-ID: <20031209103253.352718d1.jmyshrall@golden.net> On Tue, 9 Dec 2003 09:50:47 -0500 Taavi Burns wrote: > On Mon, Dec 08, 2003 at 10:42:21PM -0500, cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org wrote: > > What is VERY interesting is that none of the patents in question > > have to do with the filesystem. They ALL have to do with the way > > DOS 6 started > > DOS provided long filename support? Not that I remember. > It all started with Windows 95. > I thought Win95 was Dos 7 with the GUI tied into it. SCO then Caldera proved the M$ mucked with the GUI so that DRDOS wouldn't work. Caldera made an out of court settlement and then announced an IPO shortly afterwards. They chose guaranteed money over providing a possible stake to the heart for M$. I think this was the beginning of the present day SCO and M$ relationship. John -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 9 15:26:38 2003 From: fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Fraser Campbell) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 10:26:38 -0500 Subject: Reply To address messes with tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4@public.gmane.org In-Reply-To: <3FD5C0C6.F15DC078-BwLjziHGQLusTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FD51538.4968D7E0@onlink.net> <20031209043854.16db7505.joehill@sympatico.ca> <3FD5C0C6.F15DC078@onlink.net> Message-ID: <200312091026.38973.fraser@wehave.net> On Tuesday 09 December 2003 07:32, Chris Aitken wrote: > THis is all making sense about 70%. But when I post to the list now, I get > replied to the list, not me. So, why, if I change the Reply To address will > the sender at the other end now send to me not the list? I'm not sure what trouble you're having so let's just talk about reply-to ... There are (at least) two styles of mailing lists: - some lists add a Reply-to: header to their outgoing emails so that all replies will default to the list - some don't TLUG is the first style of list. It adds a "Reply-to: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org" header. If you're adding a "Reply-to: aitken-BwLjziHGQLusTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org" header to your TLUG emails then too bad, it's being stripped off ;-) Personally I much prefer lists that do not force the reply-to header. If I wish to reply to the list I simply say "reply to list" (L in many MUAs). If I wish to reply to the sender I just do the regular reply. Lists that force reply-to muck with the standard behaviour, if you want to reply privately you usually have to do a reply-all, then cut out the addresses that you don't want. -- Fraser Campbell http://www.wehave.net/ Halton Hills, Ontario, Canada Debian GNU/Linux -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 9 15:28:54 2003 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 10:28:54 -0500 Subject: quiet PC In-Reply-To: <65B7B304AA3DE147BBD33938FE204E283191B0-49iW0tF5bQXl9+zcyUE9hx1TMoFmMu2o@public.gmane.org> References: <65B7B304AA3DE147BBD33938FE204E283191B0@lynchmail.lynch.msft> Message-ID: <3FD5EA36.707@alteeve.com> That is certainly not true!! Yes, the power supply plans for sufficient airflow to cool the average chassi but it certainly is not a good idea to run with no cooling at all. Those voltage regulators get very hot and simple convection of the heat to a static air environment will simply not suffice. Madison Wil McGilvery wrote: > If noise is an issue, and if you have an extra pc, why not use terminal services and set up a dumb terminal in the area where noise is a problem. > > Someone correct me if I am wrong, but if you boot from a floppy and leave the cover off, you don't really need the fan on the power supply. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 9 15:31:00 2003 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 10:31:00 -0500 Subject: quiet PC In-Reply-To: <200312091009.56074.lada-h8kxHjy+vg4AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <3FD51233.6E2F5C25@onlink.net> <200312090819.15114.lada@agawa.com> <3FD5D597.208@alteeve.com> <200312091009.56074.lada@agawa.com> Message-ID: <3FD5EAB4.8020500@alteeve.com> Increased contact pressure between the CPU die and the heat sink, thermal conductive tape or paste and larger, more effective heat sinks. Couple to this a 60mm or 80mm thermally variale fan and you have the average solution today. Madison Ladislav Svatos wrote: > On December 9, 2003 09:00 am, Madison Kelly wrote: > >>What CPU and is the Heat Sink and FAN supplied by the manufacturere (AMD >>or Intel)? >> >>Madison >> >> > > I have an AMD processor and the noise is not that bad. The motherboard is an > old Asus A7V. The motherboard supports fan speed control, but it never > actually worked. Asus probably got it working in later versions of the MB. > I would like to know what are the thermal solutions for new CPUs having to > dissipate 100W of heat. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 9 15:31:13 2003 From: fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Fraser Campbell) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 10:31:13 -0500 Subject: quiet PC In-Reply-To: <200312091009.56074.lada-h8kxHjy+vg4AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <3FD51233.6E2F5C25@onlink.net> <3FD5D597.208@alteeve.com> <200312091009.56074.lada@agawa.com> Message-ID: <200312091031.13396.fraser@wehave.net> On Tuesday 09 December 2003 10:09, Ladislav Svatos wrote: > > What CPU and is the Heat Sink and FAN supplied by the manufacturere (AMD > > or Intel)? > > > > Madison > > I have an AMD processor and the noise is not that bad. The motherboard is > an old Asus A7V. The motherboard supports fan speed control, but it never > actually worked. Asus probably got it working in later versions of the MB. > I would like to know what are the thermal solutions for new CPUs having to > dissipate 100W of heat. I built a system for my mother using the ASUS A7V board the thing is dead-quiet. My mum turns off the monitor when she's not using it and I've often made the mistake of turning off the computer (thinking I was turning it on). The secret is the Antec case, despite dual-fan power supply + CPU fan + GPU fan + 2 case fans + 2 hard drives it is virtually silent. Not all Antec cases are so quiet though, I bought one for myself later without paying too much attention to the model and despite being quieter and cooler than the POS I was using before it's nowhere near as quiet as my mothers (her's may be an SX1135 but don't quote me on it). -- Fraser Campbell http://www.wehave.net/ Halton Hills, Ontario, Canada Debian GNU/Linux -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From wmcgilvery-6d3DWWOeJtE at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 9 15:47:09 2003 From: wmcgilvery-6d3DWWOeJtE at public.gmane.org (Wil McGilvery) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 10:47:09 -0500 Subject: quiet PC Message-ID: <65B7B304AA3DE147BBD33938FE204E284A9569@lynchmail.lynch.msft> I fan corrected. Regards, Wil McGilvery Manager Lynch Digital Media Inc 416-744-7949 416-716-3964 (cell) 1-866-314-4678 416-744-0406? FAX www.LynchDigital.com -----Original Message----- From: Madison Kelly [mailto:linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org] Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2003 10:29 AM To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Subject: Re: [TLUG]: quiet PC That is certainly not true!! Yes, the power supply plans for sufficient airflow to cool the average chassi but it certainly is not a good idea to run with no cooling at all. Those voltage regulators get very hot and simple convection of the heat to a static air environment will simply not suffice. Madison Wil McGilvery wrote: > If noise is an issue, and if you have an extra pc, why not use terminal services and set up a dumb terminal in the area where noise is a problem. > > Someone correct me if I am wrong, but if you boot from a floppy and leave the cover off, you don't really need the fan on the power supply. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jason-gaRZxGPHtpBxZtjKW1aY+1aTQe2KTcn/ at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 9 15:59:25 2003 From: jason-gaRZxGPHtpBxZtjKW1aY+1aTQe2KTcn/ at public.gmane.org (Jason Shein) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 10:59:25 -0500 Subject: Reply To address messes with tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4@public.gmane.org In-Reply-To: <2l028h$1gb3cm-VcWOyGJLwes/MCZexUuWkuTW4wlIGRCZ@public.gmane.org> References: <3FD51538.4968D7E0@onlink.net> <20031209043854.16db7505.joehill@sympatico.ca> <3FD5C0C6.F15DC078@onlink.net> <2l028h$1gb3cm@toip4.bellnexxia.net> Message-ID: <3FD5F15D.6050405@pcsecurityonline.com> Speaking of Evolution, 1.5 Released yesterday as announced here. http://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnome-announce-list/2003-December/msg00030.html Personally I use Mozilla Thunderbird, which also got an upgrade to 0.4 this week. Oliver Meyn wrote: > Hi All, > > On Tue, 2003-12-09 at 07:32, Chris Aitken wrote: > >>OK - maybe I'll have to switch to Mozilla from Netscape so I can use profiles - >>then I'll have one profile for sending/receiving from/to my business, and another >>for >>tlug. > > > If you're going to make the move to another mail client may I suggest > Evolution for just this sort of thing. If you can spare a separate email > address for just receiving list mail then evolution has a very slick way > of letting you switch between accounts for sending. > > Cheers, > Oliver > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- " Eventually people tire of repairing broken Windows, And decide to replace them with something stronger" (o_ //\ Linux - The Choice Of A GNU Generation V_/_ Jason Shein Linux Registered User #281100 jason-gaRZxGPHtpBxZtjKW1aY+1aTQe2KTcn/@public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 9 16:19:08 2003 From: fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Fraser Campbell) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 11:19:08 -0500 Subject: Reply To address messes with tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4@public.gmane.org In-Reply-To: <1070981041.4348.29.camel-0lXLkTl3c71ptQ/RaucIWavRY+knis1x5NbjCUgZEJk@public.gmane.org> References: <3FD51538.4968D7E0@onlink.net> <3FD5C0C6.F15DC078@onlink.net> <1070981041.4348.29.camel@theconstruct.mineallmeyn.net> Message-ID: <200312091119.08139.fraser@wehave.net> On Tuesday 09 December 2003 09:44, Oliver Meyn wrote: > If you're going to make the move to another mail client may I suggest > Evolution for just this sort of thing. If you can spare a separate email > address for just receiving list mail then evolution has a very slick way > of letting you switch between accounts for sending. kmail has something probably very similar. - filter mailing list messages to a given folder - for that folder define some properties o Note that folder contains list and it's post address o Select which "identity" you wish to use for folder With above setup correctly a new message started while TLUG folder is selected will automatically set To: header to list. From address will be automatically set to that of your choosing. -- Fraser Campbell http://www.wehave.net/ Halton Hills, Ontario, Canada Debian GNU/Linux -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 9 16:47:05 2003 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 11:47:05 -0500 Subject: M$ to license FAT In-Reply-To: <20031209034223.0979A46C9-xzRQuAxiFLNWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org> References: <20031205212652.E63A0402B@cbbrowne.com> <20031208113447.B24061@algate.perlwolf.com> <20031209034223.0979A46C9@cbbrowne.com> Message-ID: <20031209164705.GA31759@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Dec 08, 2003 at 10:42:21PM -0500, cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org wrote: > What is Highly Curious is the fact that Atari was selling systems based > on FAT filesystems probably fifteen years ago, and were never attacked > for this. > > What is VERY interesting is that none of the patents in question have to > do with the filesystem. They ALL have to do with the way DOS 6 started > providing support for longer filenames. The patents date back to 1996, > and every single one is about filenaming. That would be DOS 7 (aka win95). No version prior to Win95 (OR if you ran NT) could do long filenames on FAT. I think OS/2 had a way to do it though. > 1 6,286,013 Method and system for providing a common name space for long > and short file names in an operating system > > 2 5,758,352 Common name space for long and short filenames > > 3 5,745,902 Method and system for accessing a file using file names > having different file name formats > > 4 5,579,517 Common name space for long and short filenames How many patents can they have for the same thing anyhow? Lennart Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 9 16:50:50 2003 From: henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org (Henry Spencer) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 11:50:50 -0500 (EST) Subject: quiet PC In-Reply-To: <3FD5DFA4.7010202-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <3FD5DFA4.7010202@rogers.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 9 Dec 2003, Ilya Palagin wrote: > I've seen computers (can't remember the brand, either IBM or Compaq), > which had just one fan - in the power supply... You can go one step farther. There are fanless computers. Mind you, you will *not* find them with the latest 2GHz Turbo-Roomheater CPU chip that can run the latest Windows at a bearable speed. :-) But as we all know, if you use Linux, lower CPU speeds still work just fine... is one example. (Note that you can get it with two or three CPU choices, and the top-end one does require a fan, so there is one in the case... but if you back off on the CPU choice, and are careful about what else you put in the case, you can disconnect the fan.) Henry Spencer henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From taavi-LbuTpDkqzNzXI80/IeQp7B2eb7JE58TQ at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 9 16:58:00 2003 From: taavi-LbuTpDkqzNzXI80/IeQp7B2eb7JE58TQ at public.gmane.org (Taavi Burns) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 11:58:00 -0500 Subject: M$ to license FAT In-Reply-To: <20031209164705.GA31759-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20031205212652.E63A0402B@cbbrowne.com> <20031208113447.B24061@algate.perlwolf.com> <20031209034223.0979A46C9@cbbrowne.com> <20031209164705.GA31759@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20031209165800.GM2033@hatefulsheep> On Tue, Dec 09, 2003 at 11:47:05AM -0500, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > That would be DOS 7 (aka win95). No version prior to Win95 (OR if you > ran NT) could do long filenames on FAT. I think OS/2 had a way to do it > though. IIRC OS/2 could only do long filenames with HPFS. Your DOS apps could access HPFS files through what looked like a network share, but long filenames would be totally masked. It was suboptimal, but possibly better than allowing two filenames (one explicit, one implicit) for one file. There's a very happy "feature" of VFAT. Create a file "Thisisaverylongfile2.txt". Note that the short version of this comes out as "THISIS~1.TXT". Create a file "Thisisaverylongfile1.txt". Note that the short version of this comes out as "THISIS~2.TXT". Now "del *1.TXT" and watch BOTH FILES DISSAPEAR. Did you really mean to do that? -- taa /*eof*/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 9 16:56:04 2003 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 11:56:04 -0500 Subject: quiet PC In-Reply-To: <200312090819.15114.lada-h8kxHjy+vg4AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <3FD51233.6E2F5C25@onlink.net> <3FD53FEB.40808@alteeve.com> <200312090819.15114.lada@agawa.com> Message-ID: <20031209165604.GB31759@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Dec 09, 2003 at 08:19:14AM -0500, Ladislav Svatos wrote: > The most noisiest fan on my computer is the CPU fan. What do you recommend for > a CPU fan? A brand name ball bearing fan (sleeve bearings don't last long and start vibrating). I discovered the cause of my Dad's noisy machine is actually the power supply fan (after replacing a few of the others). Annoyingly it is soldered in so I guess I will have to cut and splice the wires for a new fan in there. bigfoot computers has a nice selection of fans and such btw. Lennart Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 9 17:01:12 2003 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 12:01:12 -0500 Subject: M$ to license FAT In-Reply-To: <20031209165800.GM2033-9xiANKxwco6iqb11nhpoTg@public.gmane.org> References: <20031205212652.E63A0402B@cbbrowne.com> <20031208113447.B24061@algate.perlwolf.com> <20031209034223.0979A46C9@cbbrowne.com> <20031209164705.GA31759@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20031209165800.GM2033@hatefulsheep> Message-ID: <20031209170111.GC31759@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Dec 09, 2003 at 11:58:00AM -0500, Taavi Burns wrote: > IIRC OS/2 could only do long filenames with HPFS. Your DOS apps > could access HPFS files through what looked like a network share, > but long filenames would be totally masked. It was suboptimal, > but possibly better than allowing two filenames (one explicit, one > implicit) for one file. > > There's a very happy "feature" of VFAT. > > Create a file "Thisisaverylongfile2.txt". Note that the short > version of this comes out as "THISIS~1.TXT". > > Create a file "Thisisaverylongfile1.txt". Note that the short > version of this comes out as "THISIS~2.TXT". > > Now "del *1.TXT" and watch BOTH FILES DISSAPEAR. > > Did you really mean to do that? Last I tried most MS (DOS based at least) OSs didn't allow wildcards before other characters. abc*.txt is allowed *abc.txt is not. Not sure, but it may even match *.txt actually on some versions of DOS. That is pretty scary actually. Lennart Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From taavi-LbuTpDkqzNzXI80/IeQp7B2eb7JE58TQ at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 9 17:15:00 2003 From: taavi-LbuTpDkqzNzXI80/IeQp7B2eb7JE58TQ at public.gmane.org (Taavi Burns) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 12:15:00 -0500 Subject: M$ to license FAT In-Reply-To: <20031209170111.GC31759-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20031205212652.E63A0402B@cbbrowne.com> <20031208113447.B24061@algate.perlwolf.com> <20031209034223.0979A46C9@cbbrowne.com> <20031209164705.GA31759@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20031209165800.GM2033@hatefulsheep> <20031209170111.GC31759@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20031209171500.GN2033@hatefulsheep> On Tue, Dec 09, 2003 at 12:01:12PM -0500, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > Last I tried most MS (DOS based at least) OSs didn't allow wildcards > before other characters. > > abc*.txt is allowed > *abc.txt is not. Not sure, but it may even match *.txt actually on some > versions of DOS. That is pretty scary actually. Yeah, that sounds familiar. I do well remember reading a comment about it that had a working example, though. It really is kind of braindead. Or at least half-baked. -- taa /*eof*/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From gwalsh-HFI606nGbY9eoWH0uzbU5w at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 9 17:19:55 2003 From: gwalsh-HFI606nGbY9eoWH0uzbU5w at public.gmane.org (Gary Walsh) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 12:19:55 -0500 Subject: quiet PC In-Reply-To: <3FD51233.6E2F5C25-BwLjziHGQLusTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FD51233.6E2F5C25@onlink.net> Message-ID: <3FD6043B.9010901@oeone.net> Chris Aitken wrote: > I have a need for my PC to be quiet. This is for three reasons: > Some useful links: Korean company Zalman produces noiseless processor coolers http://www.zalman.co.kr/english/product/product.htm - available from the following companies specializing in quiet computing: Bigfoot Computers (Toronto) http://www.bigfootcomputers.com/ Quiet PC Canada (BC) http://www.quietpc.ca/ -- Gary Walsh Kitchener, Ontario, Canada gwalsh-HFI606nGbY9eoWH0uzbU5w at public.gmane.org http://www.oeone.net/gwalsh -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From gwalsh-HFI606nGbY9eoWH0uzbU5w at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 9 17:20:59 2003 From: gwalsh-HFI606nGbY9eoWH0uzbU5w at public.gmane.org (Gary Walsh) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 12:20:59 -0500 Subject: quiet PC In-Reply-To: <3FD51233.6E2F5C25-BwLjziHGQLusTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FD51233.6E2F5C25@onlink.net> Message-ID: <3FD6047B.1030402@oeone.net> Chris Aitken wrote: > I have a need for my PC to be quiet. This is for three reasons: > Some useful links: Korean company Zalman produces noiseless processor coolers http://www.zalman.co.kr/english/product/product.htm - available from the following companies specializing in quiet computing: Bigfoot Computers (Toronto) http://www.bigfootcomputers.com/ Quiet PC Canada (BC) http://www.quietpc.ca/ -- Gary Walsh Kitchener, Ontario, Canada gwalsh-HFI606nGbY9eoWH0uzbU5w at public.gmane.org http://www.oeone.net/gwalsh -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From adb-tlug-AbAJl/g/NLXk1uMJSBkQmQ at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 9 17:28:36 2003 From: adb-tlug-AbAJl/g/NLXk1uMJSBkQmQ at public.gmane.org (Anthony de Boer) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 12:28:36 -0500 Subject: Hard drive recovery In-Reply-To: ; from robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy@public.gmane.org on Sun, Dec 07, 2003 at 10:30:22PM -0500 References: Message-ID: <20031209122835.U32040@leftmind.net> Robert Brockway wrote: > When building a backup solution, resources allowing, I will setup a > staging area on disk somewhere to hold backups. From the staging area the > backups can go off site by the chosen means. Bandwidth allowing, it can be useful to have your backup-staging machine at the far end of a fat connection, so that once you've done your physical backups from it they're already offsite with regard to the live servers, and you don't have to cart them halfway across $DEITY's green earth. Some organizations with more than one site, and fibre between, have each back up the other, for example. Rsync can be your friend, in this regard, allowing you to keep a mirror of your data at minimal bandwidth cost. -- Anthony de Boer -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 9 17:37:44 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 12:37:44 -0500 Subject: quiet PC In-Reply-To: <3FD6043B.9010901-HFI606nGbY9eoWH0uzbU5w@public.gmane.org> References: <3FD51233.6E2F5C25@onlink.net> <3FD6043B.9010901@oeone.net> Message-ID: <20031209123744.6cd3f4c8.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Tue, 09 Dec 2003 12:19:55 -0500 Gary Walsh wrote: > Bigfoot Computers (Toronto) http://www.bigfootcomputers.com/ Do they actually build custom systems? I'll hopefully be looking for a "bare-bones" system in the near future, probably AMD based, and I'm looking for a good place to go. Last place I checked, Computer Central Canada, said they didn't recommend AMD, as that is their number one return item. Which begs the question, "why do you sell it?" -- JoeHill ++ ICQ # 280779813 Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "One of the most dangerous errors of our time is the belief that human beings are uniquely violent animals, barely restrained from committing atrocities on each other by the constraints of ethics, religion, and the state."-- Eric S. Raymond -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From mervc-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 9 18:57:39 2003 From: mervc-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org (Merv Curley) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 13:57:39 -0500 Subject: MisterHouse / x10 /home automation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200312091357.39407.mervc@eol.ca> On December 3, 2003 10:11 am, Mailing List wrote: > Has anyone used x10 or home automation in > their house? Where is a good place to > shop for x10 stuff? Any recommendations? > Taking some time to get caught up. I have been using this stuff, first from Radio Shack, now X10 for almost 20 years. Starting with an 8 bit computer as controller, now this machine. It isn't the most reliable but does ok in the home. Some of my lamp/appliance controllers are at least 15 years old, others have only lasted a short while. There is a Linux program to control this stuff called Heyu. Like 'heyu - turn off the light'. I have it controlling about 10 lights around the house via cron. It does just about everything that the Activehome software does but not yet via a GUI frontend. Rad. Shack still sell the modules but I have found a nearby electrical distributor with a pretty decent stock for less $$. There are always bargain packages available at the U.S. site if you want to order that way. The only caution is, the X10 signals don't get across the 2 phases in the house reliably. Heyu supports more than one controller so you can have one on each phase or you can with a bit of magic, help the signals with a bridge. Now bridge isn't the right word but its the best I can come up with right now. Cheers Merv -- Merv Curley Scarborough, Ont Libranet Linux 2.8 KDE 3.1.4 KMail 1.5.4 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From robert-yzlPDbdf3LosA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 9 18:55:32 2003 From: robert-yzlPDbdf3LosA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Robert McDonald) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 13:55:32 -0500 Subject: MisterHouse / x10 /home automation References: <200312091357.39407.mervc@eol.ca> Message-ID: <00ad01c3be86$0cbb4340$0b01a8c0@win98p4> ----- Original Message ----- From: Merv Curley To: Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2003 1:57 PM Subject: Re: [TLUG]: MisterHouse / x10 /home automation > On December 3, 2003 10:11 am, Mailing List wrote: > > Has anyone used x10 or home automation in > > their house? Where is a good place to > > shop for x10 stuff? Any recommendations? > > I bought some x10 stuff from here a few months ago, Wholesale prices and I was able to arrange to go and pick it up in person.. http://www.baran-harper.com/ I was able to get things turning off and on at the times I requested, lights dimming in rooms at intervals ect, ect.. It was kinda fun getting it all going but I'm not using any of it at the moment. There is a front end panel that worked with a windows PC for programming called "Activehome". http://heyu.tanj.com/heyu/index.html <-- linux front end s/w for x10 controller ( i never used it ) more stuff at http://x10.com Enjoy! Robert -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 9 18:52:17 2003 From: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 13:52:17 -0500 (EST) Subject: *Really* bad week for SCO In-Reply-To: <20031209050310.36775c99.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <20031208170034.14835d7a.joehill@sympatico.ca> <3FD4FC2C.50609@sympatico.ca> <20031208175301.13e73a43.joehill@sympatico.ca> <3FD5053E.14FED3C0@onlink.net> <3FD5128F.7090401@rogers.com> <20031209050310.36775c99.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, 9 Dec 2003, JoeHill wrote: > On Mon, 08 Dec 2003 19:08:47 -0500 > Byron Sonne wrote: > > > >> BTW, my ma was telling me she's already seen the IBM Linux ad, gave 'er > > >chills > > > Yeah, it does have a spooky feel to it. > > > > Is this ad good or bad? Spooky can be a good feeling sometimes ;) > > I bet it's more than a *little* spooky for the fine folks at SCO and MS, :-D I haven't seen this add and I'm sure others haven't either. Tell us more! :) What is so spooky about it? Rob -- Robert Brockway B.Sc. email: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org, zzbrock at uqconnect.net Linux counter project ID #16440 (http://counter.li.org) "The earth is but one country and mankind its citizens" -Baha'u'llah -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From aitken-BwLjziHGQLusTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 9 18:04:09 2003 From: aitken-BwLjziHGQLusTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Chris Aitken) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 13:04:09 -0500 Subject: M$ to license FAT References: <20031205212652.E63A0402B@cbbrowne.com> <20031208113447.B24061@algate.perlwolf.com> <20031209034223.0979A46C9@cbbrowne.com> <20031209145047.GF2033@hatefulsheep> Message-ID: <3FD60E99.F95BE29C@onlink.net> Taavi Burns wrote: > On Mon, Dec 08, 2003 at 10:42:21PM -0500, cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org wrote: > > What is VERY interesting is that none of the patents in question have to > > do with the filesystem. They ALL have to do with the way DOS 6 started > > DOS provided long filename support? Not that I remember. > It all started with Windows 95. It's moot, but I think it was the Windows 95 version of DOS, which stored long filenames with the 8.3 convention. So whateverfile.txt is stored in W95 DOS as whatev~1.txt Chris -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 9 19:05:01 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 14:05:01 -0500 Subject: *Really* bad week for SCO In-Reply-To: References: <20031208170034.14835d7a.joehill@sympatico.ca> <3FD4FC2C.50609@sympatico.ca> <20031208175301.13e73a43.joehill@sympatico.ca> <3FD5053E.14FED3C0@onlink.net> <3FD5128F.7090401@rogers.com> <20031209050310.36775c99.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <20031209140501.7e0f6226.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Tue, 9 Dec 2003 13:52:17 -0500 (EST) Robert Brockway wrote: > I haven't seen this add and I'm sure others haven't either. Tell us more! > :) What is so spooky about it? Well, I don't find it spooky, I think it's cool as hell. Hmmm, I don't want to get sued by IBM or get "Slashdotted" but what the hell: http://www.orderinchaos.org/prodigy90_med.mpg Go easy, it's a P166! You can probably also get it off the IBM website, or just Google for the filename. -- JoeHill ++ ICQ # 280779813 Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ And so if people are violating the law by doing drugs, they ought to be accused and they ought to be convicted and they ought to be sent up.-- Rush Limbaugh, drug abuser -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 9 19:17:33 2003 From: cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org (cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 14:17:33 -0500 Subject: M$ to license FAT In-Reply-To: Message from Taavi Burns of "Tue, 09 Dec 2003 09:50:47 EST." <20031209145047.GF2033-9xiANKxwco6iqb11nhpoTg@public.gmane.org> References: <20031205212652.E63A0402B@cbbrowne.com> <20031208113447.B24061@algate.perlwolf.com> <20031209034223.0979A46C9@cbbrowne.com> <20031209145047.GF2033@hatefulsheep> Message-ID: <20031209191734.802DC447A@cbbrowne.com> > On Mon, Dec 08, 2003 at 10:42:21PM -0500, cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org wrote: > > What is VERY interesting is that none of the patents in question have to > > do with the filesystem. They ALL have to do with the way DOS 6 started > > DOS provided long filename support? Not that I remember. > It all started with Windows 95. Oops, my bad. DOS 7. (Which was not marketed under that name, though if you looked for the VERSION, that's what you'd see...) -- "cbbrowne","@","cbbrowne.com" http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/spreadsheets.html This less-than-witty quote forces Emacs into -*-Quip-*- mode. I may be wise, witty, and wonderful, but if I have a custom mode for this, I obviously spend too much time manipulating fortune messages... -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From aitken-BwLjziHGQLusTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 9 19:10:56 2003 From: aitken-BwLjziHGQLusTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Chris Aitken) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 14:10:56 -0500 Subject: M$ to license FAT References: <20031205212652.E63A0402B@cbbrowne.com> <20031208113447.B24061@algate.perlwolf.com> <20031209034223.0979A46C9@cbbrowne.com> <20031209164705.GA31759@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20031209165800.GM2033@hatefulsheep> Message-ID: <3FD61E3F.2450C926@onlink.net> Taavi Burns wrote: > [...] > > There's a very happy "feature" of VFAT. > > Create a file "Thisisaverylongfile2.txt". Note that the short > version of this comes out as "THISIS~1.TXT". > > Create a file "Thisisaverylongfile1.txt". Note that the short > version of this comes out as "THISIS~2.TXT". > > Now "del *1.TXT" and watch BOTH FILES DISSAPEAR. > > Did you really mean to do that? Holy Shit. Are you serious? Chris -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From aitken-BwLjziHGQLusTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 9 19:12:07 2003 From: aitken-BwLjziHGQLusTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Chris Aitken) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 14:12:07 -0500 Subject: M$ to license FAT References: <20031205212652.E63A0402B@cbbrowne.com> <20031208113447.B24061@algate.perlwolf.com> <20031209034223.0979A46C9@cbbrowne.com> <20031209164705.GA31759@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20031209165800.GM2033@hatefulsheep> Message-ID: <3FD61E87.1575C5D8@onlink.net> Taavi Burns wrote: > [...] > > Create a file "Thisisaverylongfile1.txt". Note that the short > version of this comes out as "THISIS~2.TXT". > > Now "del *1.TXT" and watch BOTH FILES DISSAPEAR. > > Did you really mean to do that? No, I though I was installing linux. Must have the wrong CD in the drive... : ) Chris -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From taavi-LbuTpDkqzNzXI80/IeQp7B2eb7JE58TQ at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 9 21:06:24 2003 From: taavi-LbuTpDkqzNzXI80/IeQp7B2eb7JE58TQ at public.gmane.org (Taavi Burns) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 16:06:24 -0500 Subject: M$ to license FAT In-Reply-To: <3FD60E99.F95BE29C-BwLjziHGQLusTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org> References: <20031205212652.E63A0402B@cbbrowne.com> <20031208113447.B24061@algate.perlwolf.com> <20031209034223.0979A46C9@cbbrowne.com> <20031209145047.GF2033@hatefulsheep> <3FD60E99.F95BE29C@onlink.net> Message-ID: <20031209210624.GQ2033@hatefulsheep> On Tue, Dec 09, 2003 at 01:04:09PM -0500, Chris Aitken wrote: > Taavi Burns wrote: > > DOS provided long filename support? Not that I remember. > > It all started with Windows 95. > > It's moot, but I think it was the Windows 95 version of DOS, which stored > long filenames with the 8.3 convention. So whateverfile.txt is stored in > W95 DOS as whatev~1.txt Yes, as Chris said, MS-DOS 7. It's not really clear which is which, though, since you can access files by their long or short names in both DOS 7 and Win9x. They both store both names; you can't put long filenames on FAT without having an 8.3 version, too. -- taa /*eof*/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 9 21:15:02 2003 From: clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (CLIFFORD ILKAY) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 16:15:02 -0500 Subject: *Really* bad week for SCO In-Reply-To: <000501c3be10$4b83d130$b151fea9-/gZmskUKQAo@public.gmane.org> References: <3FD5179E.3040909@rogers.com> <000501c3be10$4b83d130$b151fea9@omoekane> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20031209160955.03297c00@localhost> At 23:52 08/12/2003 -0500, Gary Layng wrote: > - kiting is illegal. [snip] ... unless you are a bank:) I have never bought the lame excuses that banks give as to why it takes five business days for cheques that are deposited to clear versus why cheques the funds for cheques that I write are out of the account within 24 hours. Even for a cheque drawn on the same bank, in the same city, the banks claim it can take up to five business days for it to clear. Out of town or out of country cheques take longer of course. I was reading something recently about how the banks intend to do away with shuffling paper in the form of cheques and move to electronic clearing to speed up the process. It is about time! Regards, Clifford Ilkay Dinamis Corporation 3266 Yonge Street, Suite 1419 Toronto, Ontario Canada M4N 3P6 Tel: 416-410-3326 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From pegasoft-40qIwYH5687wQaAp52fGBB2eb7JE58TQ at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 9 21:54:20 2003 From: pegasoft-40qIwYH5687wQaAp52fGBB2eb7JE58TQ at public.gmane.org (dan braun) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 16:54:20 -0500 Subject: munged 8.3 filenames --> RE:Re: M$ to license FAT In-Reply-To: <3FD60E99.F95BE29C-BwLjziHGQLusTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FD60E99.F95BE29C@onlink.net> Message-ID: <000001c3be9f$02ebc830$c864a8c0@teknix> Hi Guys, Type in c:\dir /x under Win2k and get the 8.3 munged filename!! Dan -- Dan Braun - PegaSoft Canada / CityTV danb.nospam-iRg7kjdsKiH3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org -----Original Message----- From: owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org [mailto:owner-tlug at ss.org] On Behalf Of Chris Aitken Taavi Burns wrote: It's moot, but I think it was the Windows 95 version of DOS, which stored long filenames with the 8.3 convention. So whateverfile.txt is stored in W95 DOS as whatev~1.txt Chris -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 9 22:40:14 2003 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 17:40:14 -0500 Subject: Kiting: ( was *Really* bad week for SCO) In-Reply-To: <20031209000335.B8682-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w@public.gmane.org> References: <3FD5179E.3040909@rogers.com> <000501c3be10$4b83d130$b151fea9@omoekane> <20031209000335.B8682@ee.ryerson.ca> Message-ID: <3FD64F4E.90905@rogers.com> That doesn't make sense. A cheque is returned to the home bank as quickly as practical, either directly, through a clearing house or via 3rd party banks. Once it's there, it stays unless bounced back. There's no reason for it to keep making the rounds. Kiting requires issuing a series of checques to cover the previous ones. Peter Hiscocks wrote: > I heard of one kiting scheme that was finally discovered when the magnetic > ink on the cheque wore down to the point that it could no longer be read by > the cheque-reading machines and had to be handled by a human. Apparently the > cheque had been going back and forth across the continental US for several > weeks before that happened. > > Peter > > > On Mon, Dec 08, 2003 at 11:52:49PM -0500, Gary Layng wrote: > >>I think I can google something up, but for now: >> - kiting is illegal. The scheme depends on how long it takes cheques to >>clear the central clearing facility that all banks share. Imagine you have >>two bank accounts with, say, $50 in each. You cut a cheque from your >>account in Bank 1 for, say, $5 million, and deposit it into the account you >>have in Bank 2. At the same time you also cut a cheque from the Bank 2 >>account and deposit it into the account in Bank 1. When the cheques clear, >>you have enough money to cover them. You get the interest on the $10 >>million dollars you had for two-three days in the two accounts. >> - Margin is perfectly legal. "On margin" means that you borrowed money >>from your broker to buy shares. Typically the broker lends you up to about >>75% of the value of the shares. If the value of the shares drops 25% you >>get a "margin call" and they can sell the shares. You're leveraging your >>potential capital gains by borrowing the money, but it's quite dangerous. >> >> >>His Lordship Mayhem >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org [mailto:owner-tlug at ss.org] On Behalf Of Byron Sonne >>Sent: Monday, December 08, 2003 7:30 PM >>To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org >>Subject: Re: [TLUG]: *Really* bad week for SCO >> >> >>>its stock price may jump to $50, and if you hold -100 of them, you'll >>>now have to pay $5000 to close out your position, and you're in the hole >> >>big >> >>>time. >> >>Does anyone have a link to a site or some docs that explain, to a putz >>like me, what all this various financial wizardry is? >> >>I've seen shorting briefly explained here, but what about kiting, >>selling on margin, etc, and various other techniques and scams? I'd like >>to know but I don't have the inclination to read entire books about this >>stuff, or become a CPA or something. >> >>Later, >>B >>-- >>The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org >>TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >>How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml >> >>-- >>The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org >>TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >>How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 9 22:43:41 2003 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 17:43:41 -0500 Subject: Kiting: ( was *Really* bad week for SCO) In-Reply-To: <000801c3be13$d817f290$b151fea9-/gZmskUKQAo@public.gmane.org> References: <000801c3be13$d817f290$b151fea9@omoekane> Message-ID: <3FD6501D.8040700@rogers.com> Another scam was to get non personalized deposit slips for your account, and slip them in with the generic deposit slips at the bank counter. An unsuspecting customer might use your slip, when making a deposit, but the money gets put in your account. That's one of the reasons the 2 types of deposit slips have a completely different layout. Gary Layng wrote: > That isn't precisely a kiting scheme, but it's pretty close. It's actually > a computer fraud case. It depended on the technology of the time (the > 1970's, I believe). He had a printer friend print cheques with the logo of > the New York bank, but the bank identifier in the MICR code at the bottom > was for a California bank. Those cheques went back and forth between the > two Federal Reserve districts for months before the scheme was uncovered, by > which time the perpetrator was long gone. > > Classic kiting is what brought down broker E.F. Hutton (remember their ads, > "When E.F. Hutton speaks, people listen"?). This company was extremely old, > dating back to before the 1907 California earthquake, and had a great > reputation for honesty - at least until they got caught. It died > ignominiously in the early 1980's. The guys running the scheme within the > firm would scour the States for obscure little banks where the cheques would > remain in the float as long as possible. It was quite the scandal at the > time. > > > His Lordship Mayhem > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org [mailto:owner-tlug at ss.org] On Behalf Of Peter > Hiscocks > Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2003 12:04 AM > To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > Subject: Re: [TLUG]: Kiting: ( was *Really* bad week for SCO) > > > I heard of one kiting scheme that was finally discovered when the magnetic > ink on the cheque wore down to the point that it could no longer be read by > the cheque-reading machines and had to be handled by a human. Apparently the > cheque had been going back and forth across the continental US for several > weeks before that happened. > > Peter > > > On Mon, Dec 08, 2003 at 11:52:49PM -0500, Gary Layng wrote: > >>I think I can google something up, but for now: >> - kiting is illegal. The scheme depends on how long it takes cheques to >>clear the central clearing facility that all banks share. Imagine you > > have > >>two bank accounts with, say, $50 in each. You cut a cheque from your >>account in Bank 1 for, say, $5 million, and deposit it into the account > > you > >>have in Bank 2. At the same time you also cut a cheque from the Bank 2 >>account and deposit it into the account in Bank 1. When the cheques > > clear, > >>you have enough money to cover them. You get the interest on the $10 >>million dollars you had for two-three days in the two accounts. >> - Margin is perfectly legal. "On margin" means that you borrowed money >>from your broker to buy shares. Typically the broker lends you up to > > about > >>75% of the value of the shares. If the value of the shares drops 25% you >>get a "margin call" and they can sell the shares. You're leveraging your >>potential capital gains by borrowing the money, but it's quite dangerous. >> >> >>His Lordship Mayhem >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org [mailto:owner-tlug at ss.org] On Behalf Of Byron > > Sonne > >>Sent: Monday, December 08, 2003 7:30 PM >>To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org >>Subject: Re: [TLUG]: *Really* bad week for SCO >> >> >>>its stock price may jump to $50, and if you hold -100 of them, you'll >>>now have to pay $5000 to close out your position, and you're in the hole >> >>big >> >>>time. >> >>Does anyone have a link to a site or some docs that explain, to a putz >>like me, what all this various financial wizardry is? >> >>I've seen shorting briefly explained here, but what about kiting, >>selling on margin, etc, and various other techniques and scams? I'd like >>to know but I don't have the inclination to read entire books about this >>stuff, or become a CPA or something. >> >>Later, >>B >>-- >>The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org >>TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >>How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml >> >>-- >>The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org >>TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >>How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 9 22:48:54 2003 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 17:48:54 -0500 Subject: central mail In-Reply-To: <3FD5B8CA.6C05D871-BwLjziHGQLusTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org> References: <65B7B304AA3DE147BBD33938FE204E283191AC@lynchmail.lynch.msft> <3FD538E4.4010200@rogers.com> <3FD5B8CA.6C05D871@onlink.net> Message-ID: <3FD65156.9090600@rogers.com> You run an imap server on one computer. You then use fetchmail to get mail from the ISP, to that computer. The users then run any mail client that supports IMAP. Fetchmail is used only to get the mail from the ISP to the IMAP server. Chris Aitken wrote: > James Knott wrote: > > >>Fetchmail can be used to collect the mail from a POP server. > > > So, the pop server would be pop3.onlink.net as per usual? > > But the mail clients would be Fetchmail? > > Chris > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 9 22:53:13 2003 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 17:53:13 -0500 Subject: M$ to license FAT In-Reply-To: <20031209145047.GF2033-9xiANKxwco6iqb11nhpoTg@public.gmane.org> References: <20031205212652.E63A0402B@cbbrowne.com> <20031208113447.B24061@algate.perlwolf.com> <20031209034223.0979A46C9@cbbrowne.com> <20031209145047.GF2033@hatefulsheep> Message-ID: <3FD65259.6040304@rogers.com> Taavi Burns wrote: > On Mon, Dec 08, 2003 at 10:42:21PM -0500, cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org wrote: > >>What is VERY interesting is that none of the patents in question have to >>do with the filesystem. They ALL have to do with the way DOS 6 started > > > DOS provided long filename support? Not that I remember. > It all started with Windows 95. > Wasn't W95 just a pretty shell on DOS 6? ;-) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 9 22:53:03 2003 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 17:53:03 -0500 Subject: M$ to license FAT In-Reply-To: <20031209145047.GF2033-9xiANKxwco6iqb11nhpoTg@public.gmane.org> References: <20031205212652.E63A0402B@cbbrowne.com> <20031208113447.B24061@algate.perlwolf.com> <20031209034223.0979A46C9@cbbrowne.com> <20031209145047.GF2033@hatefulsheep> Message-ID: <3FD6524F.8050901@rogers.com> Taavi Burns wrote: > On Mon, Dec 08, 2003 at 10:42:21PM -0500, cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org wrote: > >>What is VERY interesting is that none of the patents in question have to >>do with the filesystem. They ALL have to do with the way DOS 6 started > > > DOS provided long filename support? Not that I remember. > It all started with Windows 95. > Wans't W95 just a pretty shell on DOS 6? ;-) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 9 23:00:23 2003 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 18:00:23 -0500 Subject: M$ to license FAT In-Reply-To: <20031209165800.GM2033-9xiANKxwco6iqb11nhpoTg@public.gmane.org> References: <20031205212652.E63A0402B@cbbrowne.com> <20031208113447.B24061@algate.perlwolf.com> <20031209034223.0979A46C9@cbbrowne.com> <20031209164705.GA31759@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20031209165800.GM2033@hatefulsheep> Message-ID: <3FD65407.1000507@rogers.com> Taavi Burns wrote: > On Tue, Dec 09, 2003 at 11:47:05AM -0500, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > >>That would be DOS 7 (aka win95). No version prior to Win95 (OR if you >>ran NT) could do long filenames on FAT. I think OS/2 had a way to do it >>though. > > > IIRC OS/2 could only do long filenames with HPFS. Your DOS apps > could access HPFS files through what looked like a network share, > but long filenames would be totally masked. It was suboptimal, > but possibly better than allowing two filenames (one explicit, one > implicit) for one file. I believe OS/2 supported long file names on the desktop, but had chopped names on the FAT file system. The long file name was stored as an extended attribute in a file called (IIRC) "EA DATA.SF". > > There's a very happy "feature" of VFAT. > > Create a file "Thisisaverylongfile2.txt". Note that the short > version of this comes out as "THISIS~1.TXT". > > Create a file "Thisisaverylongfile1.txt". Note that the short > version of this comes out as "THISIS~2.TXT". > > Now "del *1.TXT" and watch BOTH FILES DISSAPEAR. > > Did you really mean to do that? > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 9 23:04:43 2003 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 18:04:43 -0500 Subject: *Really* bad week for SCO In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20031209160955.03297c00-bi+AKbBUZKZeoWH0uzbU5w@public.gmane.org> References: <3FD5179E.3040909@rogers.com> <5.2.0.9.0.20031209160955.03297c00@localhost> Message-ID: <3FD6550B.9070508@rogers.com> They're probably allowing bounce time. CLIFFORD ILKAY wrote: > At 23:52 08/12/2003 -0500, Gary Layng wrote: > >> - kiting is illegal. > > [snip] > > ... unless you are a bank:) I have never bought the lame excuses that > banks give as to why it takes five business days for cheques that are > deposited to clear versus why cheques the funds for cheques that I write > are out of the account within 24 hours. Even for a cheque drawn on the > same bank, in the same city, the banks claim it can take up to five > business days for it to clear. Out of town or out of country cheques > take longer of course. I was reading something recently about how the > banks intend to do away with shuffling paper in the form of cheques and > move to electronic clearing to speed up the process. It is about time! > > Regards, > > Clifford Ilkay > Dinamis Corporation > 3266 Yonge Street, Suite 1419 > Toronto, Ontario > Canada M4N 3P6 > > Tel: 416-410-3326 > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 9 23:26:25 2003 From: john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (John Moniz) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 18:26:25 -0500 Subject: *Really* bad week for SCO In-Reply-To: <20031209140501.7e0f6226.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <20031208170034.14835d7a.joehill@sympatico.ca> <3FD4FC2C.50609@sympatico.ca> <20031208175301.13e73a43.joehill@sympatico.ca> <3FD5053E.14FED3C0@onlink.net> <3FD5128F.7090401@rogers.com> <20031209050310.36775c99.joehill@sympatico.ca> <20031209140501.7e0f6226.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <3FD65A21.1040506@sympatico.ca> JoeHill wrote: >On Tue, 9 Dec 2003 13:52:17 -0500 (EST) >Robert Brockway wrote: > > > >>I haven't seen this add and I'm sure others haven't either. Tell us more! >>:) What is so spooky about it? >> >> > >Well, I don't find it spooky, I think it's cool as hell. > >Hmmm, I don't want to get sued by IBM or get "Slashdotted" but what the hell: > >http://www.orderinchaos.org/prodigy90_med.mpg > >Go easy, it's a P166! > >You can probably also get it off the IBM website, or just Google for the >filename. > > > This commercial is the same one broadcast months ago. It didn't stay around long and I was disappointed that it didn't last longer than it did. It was a great commercial then and it's still great now. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 9 23:35:10 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 18:35:10 -0500 Subject: *Really* bad week for SCO In-Reply-To: <3FD65A21.1040506-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <20031208170034.14835d7a.joehill@sympatico.ca> <3FD4FC2C.50609@sympatico.ca> <20031208175301.13e73a43.joehill@sympatico.ca> <3FD5053E.14FED3C0@onlink.net> <3FD5128F.7090401@rogers.com> <20031209050310.36775c99.joehill@sympatico.ca> <20031209140501.7e0f6226.joehill@sympatico.ca> <3FD65A21.1040506@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <20031209183510.300a1e5b.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Tue, 09 Dec 2003 18:26:25 -0500 John Moniz wrote: > This commercial is the same one broadcast months ago. It didn't stay > around long and I was disappointed that it didn't last longer than it > did. It was a great commercial then and it's still great now. I would imagine it is just the beginning. IBM is really putting a lot of momentum into it's Linux business, and I can see them really pushing this not only for it's direct impact on the business side, but also for its value in the "war of words" around SCO and MS. But ya, that's gotta be one of the most effective ads I've ever seen. -- JoeHill ++ ICQ # 280779813 Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." -- Hunter S. Thompson -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From zhunt-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 10 01:25:47 2003 From: zhunt-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (Zoltan) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 19:25:47 -0600 Subject: YYZTechA new computer newspaper for Toronto? Message-ID: <017d01c3bebc$8a46ca10$ba0ce540@D2XGQ811> In the early 1990s there where a two free newspapers providing computing information for the Toronto audience: Toronto Computes and The Computer Paper. Since last September these two have been replaced by HUB Canada. Unfortunately, HUB seems to be more about consumer electronics and the latest Windows applications than for someone looking for for an ISP with good tech support or where to meet Linux-heads in Toronto. To this end I'd like to see who would be interested in a new computer paper for the Toronto area. This would be a free and have a pro-Linux/OpenSource stance with a focus on the Linux community here as well as providing stories of interest to Mac and, perhaps other computer systems. Currently I'm investigating using the news site The Register (http://www.theregister.co.uk/) to provide some syndicated content. I'd like to get some feedback about this venture, specifically: -Is this something that is needed? -What would you like to see / not see in a computer newspaper -Would you be interested in writing or helping out? I'd like to get as much feedback as possible, so if this interest you, please e-mail me at: yyztech-KdxWn004MjY at public.gmane.org or on the list, Thanks, Zoltan Hunt www.zee4.com -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From tim-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 10 00:46:42 2003 From: tim-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Tim Writer) Date: 09 Dec 2003 19:46:42 -0500 Subject: M$ to license FAT In-Reply-To: <20031208192215.GE2033-9xiANKxwco6iqb11nhpoTg@public.gmane.org> References: <20031205212652.E63A0402B@cbbrowne.com> <20031208113447.B24061@algate.perlwolf.com> <20031208192215.GE2033@hatefulsheep> Message-ID: Taavi Burns writes: > On Mon, Dec 08, 2003 at 02:10:15PM -0500, Tim Writer wrote: > > And Linux already offers file systems that are more appropriate for this type > > of use. JFFS2, for example, includes wear leveling to minimize wear which can > > cause certain types of flash devices to fail much earlier than expected. > > IIRC, FAT stores critical information (the file allocation table and a single > > backup) in a fixed area of the file system. When it fails due to wear, > > you're toast, even if the majority of the device is in good shape. > > Most (all?) of the standard Flash memory devices these days have onboard > controllers which can detect failing sectors in the flash memory, and will > reroute data to spare sectors, much as HDs do these days. Are you sure? The JFFS2 folks don't seem to think so and anecdotal evidence seems to bear me out. > Of course, if the filesystem can help out, all the better. :) > > > In fact, many (most?) such products already come with software from the > > manufacturer, even if it's not stricly necessary. > > But do you want to encourage this behaviour? No, but this is a way of life that Windows users are used to. Moving to JFFS2 (or any trusty, open source file system) would make Linux easier to use at the expense of Windows. Wouldn't that be nice, for a change? > And how many distros come with JFFS2 drivers? Not many at present, I expect. How many came with ext3 when it first came out? > Is it even part of the standard kernel > source (it doesn't look familar to me; then again, I haven't been > looking for it). Not yet. > There is still the question of which would cost > more: VFAT licensing (if even required), or the writing and maintenance > of a driver. We might be happy if they came out with some random > open source Windows driver (that couldn't very well be GPL, now, could > it), but others might get a "bad" feeling about it. Cost (because it would appear to be minimal) isn't the issue. The concern is that Linux could be forced to drop FAT support (due to patent infringement) making these devices less convenient to use from within Linux. An open source alternative like JFFS2 is a win-win solution. -- tim writer starnix inc. 905.771.0017 ext. 225 thornhill, ontario, canada http://www.starnix.com professional linux services & products -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From taavi-LbuTpDkqzNzXI80/IeQp7B2eb7JE58TQ at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 10 03:03:23 2003 From: taavi-LbuTpDkqzNzXI80/IeQp7B2eb7JE58TQ at public.gmane.org (Taavi Burns) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 22:03:23 -0500 Subject: M$ to license FAT In-Reply-To: References: <20031205212652.E63A0402B@cbbrowne.com> <20031208113447.B24061@algate.perlwolf.com> <20031208192215.GE2033@hatefulsheep> Message-ID: <20031210030323.GS2033@hatefulsheep> On Tue, Dec 09, 2003 at 07:46:42PM -0500, Tim Writer wrote: > Taavi Burns writes: > > Most (all?) of the standard Flash memory devices these days have onboard > > controllers which can detect failing sectors in the flash memory, and will > > reroute data to spare sectors, much as HDs do these days. > > Are you sure? The JFFS2 folks don't seem to think so and anecdotal evidence > seems to bear me out. It may be that not all spare sectors are created equal. Also, if one exhausts all of the spare sectors, you're stills screwed. I can see how JFFS2 might extend the life of flash memory devices in either case. There may also be differences between different flash devices. CompactFlash is basically IDE. I don't know about the others. > > > In fact, many (most?) such products already come with software from the > > > manufacturer, even if it's not stricly necessary. > > > > But do you want to encourage this behaviour? > > No, but this is a way of life that Windows users are used to. Moving to > JFFS2 (or any trusty, open source file system) would make Linux easier to use > at the expense of Windows. Wouldn't that be nice, for a change? It would be. I'm not convinced that it'd be the industry's best course of action at this time, however. > > And how many distros come with JFFS2 drivers? > > Not many at present, I expect. How many came with ext3 when it first came > out? Ah, but at least ext3 and ext2 are interoperable, much like FAT and VFAT. > Cost (because it would appear to be minimal) isn't the issue. The concern is > that Linux could be forced to drop FAT support (due to patent infringement) > making these devices less convenient to use from within Linux. An open > source alternative like JFFS2 is a win-win solution. But that's what I've been saying. FAT support is NOT IN QUESTION. VFAT support is. Now if you want to write files with VFAT long filenames for your device to use, because those are the only ones it understands, then you're screwed. But so far nobody seems intersted in doing that, because nobody's seen fit to bother with VFAT support on these embedded devices. And if M$ tries to go after USB memory key vendors over VFAT patents, they're very very stupid, or have an ace already in the hole that we don't know about. VFAT simply uses otherwise unused space in the FAT file table to store the long filenames. That's what these patents are all about. -- taa /*eof*/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From taavi-LbuTpDkqzNzXI80/IeQp7B2eb7JE58TQ at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 10 03:03:54 2003 From: taavi-LbuTpDkqzNzXI80/IeQp7B2eb7JE58TQ at public.gmane.org (Taavi Burns) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 22:03:54 -0500 Subject: M$ to license FAT In-Reply-To: <3FD6524F.8050901-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <20031205212652.E63A0402B@cbbrowne.com> <20031208113447.B24061@algate.perlwolf.com> <20031209034223.0979A46C9@cbbrowne.com> <20031209145047.GF2033@hatefulsheep> <3FD6524F.8050901@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20031210030354.GT2033@hatefulsheep> On Tue, Dec 09, 2003 at 05:53:03PM -0500, James Knott wrote: > Wans't W95 just a pretty shell on DOS 6? ;-) No, it was an ugly shell on DOS 7. ;) -- taa /*eof*/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From aitken-BwLjziHGQLusTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 10 02:12:55 2003 From: aitken-BwLjziHGQLusTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Chris Aitken) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 21:12:55 -0500 Subject: central mail References: <65B7B304AA3DE147BBD33938FE204E283191AC@lynchmail.lynch.msft> <3FD538E4.4010200@rogers.com> <3FD5B8CA.6C05D871@onlink.net> <3FD65156.9090600@rogers.com> Message-ID: <3FD68127.CBFB7C18@onlink.net> James Knott wrote: > You run an imap server on one computer. You then use fetchmail to get > mail from the ISP, to that computer. The users then run any mail client > that supports IMAP. Fetchmail is used only to get the mail from the ISP > to the IMAP server. OK - thanks. That's the explanation I was hoping for. For me this will be a huge task. Downloading rpm's, installing software, configuring MUA, MTA, and now, if I understand correctly, MDA. And I'm sure I will face many questions to which I will not know the answer. So, this explanation will be my guiding light. : ) /home/chris -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From aitken-BwLjziHGQLusTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 10 02:17:26 2003 From: aitken-BwLjziHGQLusTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Chris Aitken) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 21:17:26 -0500 Subject: YYZTechA new computer newspaper for Toronto? References: <017d01c3bebc$8a46ca10$ba0ce540@D2XGQ811> Message-ID: <3FD68236.352CD0D7@onlink.net> Zoltan wrote: > In the early 1990s there where a two free newspapers providing computing > information for the Toronto audience: Toronto Computes and The Computer > Paper. Since last September these two have been replaced by HUB Canada. > Unfortunately, HUB seems to be more about consumer electronics and the > latest Windows applications than for someone looking for for an ISP with > good tech support or where to meet Linux-heads in Toronto. > > To this end I'd like to see who would be interested in a new computer paper > for the Toronto area. This would be a free and have a pro-Linux/OpenSource > stance with a focus on the Linux community here as well as providing stories > of interest to Mac and, perhaps other computer systems. Currently I'm > investigating using the news site The Register > (http://www.theregister.co.uk/) to provide some syndicated content. > > I'd like to get some feedback about this venture, specifically: > > -Is this something that is needed? Yes. > > -What would you like to see / not see in a computer newspaper I would like to see the option of payinfg for a subscription to have it mailed to me in Timmins. > > -Would you be interested in writing or helping out? Yes. I would gladly write (still a newbie though) or edit (no problem with that). /home/chris -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From aitken-BwLjziHGQLusTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 10 02:20:23 2003 From: aitken-BwLjziHGQLusTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Chris Aitken) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 21:20:23 -0500 Subject: Dear Santa Message-ID: <3FD682E7.2758E144@onlink.net> Dear Santa, For Christmas I would like Microsoft to go out of business. I don't know how - I haven't thought it through. I'd just like it to curl up and die. If that's too much to ask for I'll take world peace. Thank you. Love, Chris -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From robert-yzlPDbdf3LosA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 10 03:36:00 2003 From: robert-yzlPDbdf3LosA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Robert McDonald) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 22:36:00 -0500 Subject: M$ to license FAT References: <20031205212652.E63A0402B@cbbrowne.com> <20031208113447.B24061@algate.perlwolf.com> <20031209034223.0979A46C9@cbbrowne.com> <20031209145047.GF2033@hatefulsheep> <3FD6524F.8050901@rogers.com> Message-ID: <002a01c3bece$bea17aa0$0b01a8c0@win98p4> ----- Original Message ----- From: James Knott To: Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2003 5:53 PM Subject: Re: [TLUG]: Re: M$ to license FAT > Wans't W95 just a pretty shell on DOS 6? ;-) I heard W95 was released for 32-bit extensions and a graphical shell for a 16-bit patch to an 8-bit operating system originally coded for a 4-bit microprocessor, written by a 2-bit company that can't stand 1 bit of competition. > > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 10 04:05:05 2003 From: colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 23:05:05 -0500 Subject: Dear Santa References: <3FD682E7.2758E144@onlink.net> Message-ID: <006601c3bed2$cb403c20$4201a8c0@ym.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> "Chris Aitken" on Tuesday, December 09, 2003 9:20 PM wrote: > Dear Santa, > > For Christmas I would like Microsoft to go out of business. I don't know > how - I haven't > thought it through. I'd just like it to curl up and die. If that's too > much to ask for I'll take > world peace. A few weeks ago I got a used Microsoft product that I am on balance quite happy with, and it works quite nicely with my main home Linux box... Ok, so it is one of Microsoft's "natural" keyboards, which I think looks a bit ugly, but is very comfortable to type on... Now, if Microsoft were reduced to a hardware ONLY company (with drivers having to be contracted out, and ALL driver specs being made publicly available) I could see letting Microsoft survive, but yes, let's get Microsoft out of the software business, there they are too evil to be allowed to continue... > Thank you. > > Love, > > Chris > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From aacton-B71PBEe7S7Y at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 10 03:55:39 2003 From: aacton-B71PBEe7S7Y at public.gmane.org (Austin Acton) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 22:55:39 -0500 Subject: M$ to license FAT In-Reply-To: <002a01c3bece$bea17aa0$0b01a8c0-VMKVZpoZl3s@public.gmane.org> References: <20031205212652.E63A0402B@cbbrowne.com> <20031208113447.B24061@algate.perlwolf.com> <20031209034223.0979A46C9@cbbrowne.com> <20031209145047.GF2033@hatefulsheep> <3FD6524F.8050901@rogers.com> <002a01c3bece$bea17aa0$0b01a8c0@win98p4> Message-ID: <1071028536.9688.0.camel@gamma373-365.portable.resnet.yorku.ca> On Tue, 2003-12-09 at 22:36, Robert McDonald wrote: > I heard W95 was released for > 32-bit extensions and a graphical shell for a > 16-bit patch to an > 8-bit operating system originally coded for a > 4-bit microprocessor, written by a > 2-bit company that can't stand > 1 bit of competition. Jeez... did you just come up with that on-the-spot? That's pretty sweet! Austin -- Austin Acton Synthetic Organic Chemist, Teaching Assistant, Ph.D. Candidate Department of Chemistry, York University, Toronto MandrakeLinux Volunteer Developer, homepage: www.groundstate.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 10 04:03:43 2003 From: henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org (Henry Spencer) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 23:03:43 -0500 (EST) Subject: M$ to license FAT In-Reply-To: <20031210030323.GS2033-9xiANKxwco6iqb11nhpoTg@public.gmane.org> References: <20031210030323.GS2033@hatefulsheep> Message-ID: On Tue, 9 Dec 2003, Taavi Burns wrote: > > > Most (all?) of the standard Flash memory devices these days have onboard > > > controllers which can detect failing sectors in the flash memory, and will > > > reroute data to spare sectors, much as HDs do these days. > > Are you sure? The JFFS2 folks don't seem to think so and anecdotal evidence > > seems to bear me out. > > ...There may also be differences between different flash devices... Yep. At the two extremes, most CompactFlash cards are quite smart and do the right things (although I'm told that some early ones didn't), while the so-called SmartMedia cards have *NO* smarts at all -- they are just a bare memory array -- and absolutely require a smart filesystem. Henry Spencer henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 10 04:18:30 2003 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 23:18:30 -0500 Subject: M$ to license FAT In-Reply-To: <1071028536.9688.0.camel-33sJirT1wKzlb5+wx7kmt/BjuwtQqDz/bwi28uEu5RN+FfftCXEu2Q@public.gmane.org> References: <20031205212652.E63A0402B@cbbrowne.com> <20031208113447.B24061@algate.perlwolf.com> <20031209034223.0979A46C9@cbbrowne.com> <20031209145047.GF2033@hatefulsheep> <3FD6524F.8050901@rogers.com> <002a01c3bece$bea17aa0$0b01a8c0@win98p4> <1071028536.9688.0.camel@gamma373-365.portable.resnet.yorku.ca> Message-ID: <3FD69E96.2020107@rogers.com> Austin Acton wrote: > On Tue, 2003-12-09 at 22:36, Robert McDonald wrote: > >>I heard W95 was released for >>32-bit extensions and a graphical shell for a >>16-bit patch to an >>8-bit operating system originally coded for a >>4-bit microprocessor, written by a >>2-bit company that can't stand >>1 bit of competition. > > > Jeez... did you just come up with that on-the-spot? > That's pretty sweet! > > Austin It's been around for years. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From kcozens-qazKcTl6WRFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 10 04:33:55 2003 From: kcozens-qazKcTl6WRFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Kevin Cozens) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 23:33:55 -0500 Subject: central mail In-Reply-To: <3FD5171B.A49304B9-BwLjziHGQLusTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FD5171B.A49304B9@onlink.net> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20031209232808.02311a50@mail.interlog.com> At 07:28 PM 12/08/2003 -0500, Chris wrote: >I now need to move to a system by which I can see the same >email from two different PCs. Sounds like a simple thing but I have >a feeling this is going to entail a huge learning curve and maybe even >moving to a different email system. Several people have mentioned IMAP as one way to go. If the machine acting as the primary mail server (ie. the one you are retrieving your mail from) is under your control, another option is to install a web-based mail system. I run a Qmail based system with several add-ons. As a result, users can read and send mail using the sqwebmail (web-based) mail service. Since this is web-based, a users mail can be accessed from any machine with Internet access. Users can also send mail through the same interface. This might be a better option since you can use any web browser on a machine without the need to do any configuration of the e-mail program or browser to access an IMAP server. Cheers! Kevin. (http://www.interlog.com/~kcozens/) Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172 |"What are we going to do today, Borg?" E-mail:kcozens at interlog dot com|"Same thing we always do, Pinkutus: Packet:ve3syb-XXPEJ3/fxIc at public.gmane.org#con.on.ca.na| Try to assimilate the world!" #include | -Pinkutus & the Borg -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 10 05:05:11 2003 From: davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (David J Patrick) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 00:05:11 -0500 Subject: YYZTechA new computer newspaper for Toronto? In-Reply-To: <017d01c3bebc$8a46ca10$ba0ce540-9Ju/zT+hGic@public.gmane.org> References: <017d01c3bebc$8a46ca10$ba0ce540@D2XGQ811> Message-ID: <3FD6A987.90907@sympatico.ca> Zoltan wrote: >[snip] > >I'd like to get some feedback about this venture, specifically: > >-Is this something that is needed? > > absolutely ! >-What would you like to see / not see in a computer newspaper >-Would you be interested in writing or helping out? > > I'd like to see a distillation of the most interesting open source news and hardware article featuring new hardware and ideas for old hardware. Also, one this I miss, from the OLD Toronto Computes is the classified section; hardware wanted/ for sale and services. It might be possible to obtain permission to print selected items from newsforge.com and osnews.com I'd be delighted to submit the odd (and I do mean odd) editorial. >I'd like to get as much feedback as possible, so if this interest you, >please e-mail me at: > >yyztech-KdxWn004MjY at public.gmane.org or on the list, > >Thanks, >Zoltan Hunt >www.zee4.com > > > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From glayng-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 10 05:09:04 2003 From: glayng-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (Gary Layng) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 00:09:04 -0500 Subject: Kiting: ( was *Really* bad week for SCO) In-Reply-To: <3FD64F4E.90905-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <3FD64F4E.90905@rogers.com> Message-ID: <000301c3bedb$bb7b2170$b151fea9@omoekane> The United States banking system doesn't work that way, and frankly neither does the Canadian. Remember, this is the late 1960's to early 1970's, and modern sophisticated machines like the TRS-80 hadn't been invented yet. In Canada, all cheques go through central clearing facilities (they're regionalized for greater speed) and get forwarded to the bank according to the MICR encoding on the bottom of the cheque. In the States, which is about 10 times the size of Canada, the cheques follow the same distribution pattern... within each Federal Reserve district. New York is in one, California is in another. Our hero's cheques would enter New York's Federal Reserve Bank (Each Federal Reserve District goes by numbers, I forget which is which but it doesn't matter right now), get fed into the machines and get sorted and sent to the district Reserve Bank that California is in. When they arrived in sunny California, they were then further sorted into bank branches - once again using the MICR code and monster sorting machines. No human intervention just yet. For those of you counting, that's Day Two of the process. Then when the bank gets their stack of cheques, they feed them into THEIR sorting machines so they can record the amount and the payer's account... except there isn't one, so the machine barfs it out. Now, we finally get the human being involved, who looks at the cheque, sees it's actually drawn on a New York bank (because he's looking at the logo, not the MICR code), shoves it into a special envelope with one transparent side, and sends it back through the Federal Reserve in California (day 3), who send it to the Federal Reserve in New York (day 4), where it resumes its merry way back to California (day 5), which sends it to the branch encoded on the bottom of the cheque (day 6) (insert Mobius loop here)... And the payment keeps flipping back and forth between the California bank and the two Reserve Banks, until even the glassine envelope is looking mighty tattered. Then somebody looks at logo/bank name and the MICR encoding, and realizes HEY, WE WUZ TOOK! Kiting depends on having cheques deposited simultaneously in two different accounts in (preferably) two separate Reserve Districts. One bank Hutton tried to use was located in a tiny town in the middle of nowhere (in Colorado IIRC), over a day's travel from the Federal Reserve Bank whose district it was in. His Lordship Mayhem -----Original Message----- From: owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org [mailto:owner-tlug at ss.org] On Behalf Of James Knott Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2003 5:40 PM To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Subject: Re: [TLUG]: Kiting: ( was *Really* bad week for SCO) That doesn't make sense. A cheque is returned to the home bank as quickly as practical, either directly, through a clearing house or via 3rd party banks. Once it's there, it stays unless bounced back. There's no reason for it to keep making the rounds. Kiting requires issuing a series of checques to cover the previous ones. Peter Hiscocks wrote: > I heard of one kiting scheme that was finally discovered when the magnetic > ink on the cheque wore down to the point that it could no longer be read by > the cheque-reading machines and had to be handled by a human. Apparently the > cheque had been going back and forth across the continental US for several > weeks before that happened. > > Peter > > > On Mon, Dec 08, 2003 at 11:52:49PM -0500, Gary Layng wrote: > >>I think I can google something up, but for now: >> - kiting is illegal. The scheme depends on how long it takes cheques to >>clear the central clearing facility that all banks share. Imagine you have >>two bank accounts with, say, $50 in each. You cut a cheque from your >>account in Bank 1 for, say, $5 million, and deposit it into the account you >>have in Bank 2. At the same time you also cut a cheque from the Bank 2 >>account and deposit it into the account in Bank 1. When the cheques clear, >>you have enough money to cover them. You get the interest on the $10 >>million dollars you had for two-three days in the two accounts. >> - Margin is perfectly legal. "On margin" means that you borrowed money >>from your broker to buy shares. Typically the broker lends you up to about >>75% of the value of the shares. If the value of the shares drops 25% you >>get a "margin call" and they can sell the shares. You're leveraging your >>potential capital gains by borrowing the money, but it's quite dangerous. >> >> >>His Lordship Mayhem >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org [mailto:owner-tlug at ss.org] On Behalf Of Byron Sonne >>Sent: Monday, December 08, 2003 7:30 PM >>To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org >>Subject: Re: [TLUG]: *Really* bad week for SCO >> >> >>>its stock price may jump to $50, and if you hold -100 of them, you'll >>>now have to pay $5000 to close out your position, and you're in the hole >> >>big >> >>>time. >> >>Does anyone have a link to a site or some docs that explain, to a putz >>like me, what all this various financial wizardry is? >> >>I've seen shorting briefly explained here, but what about kiting, >>selling on margin, etc, and various other techniques and scams? I'd like >>to know but I don't have the inclination to read entire books about this >>stuff, or become a CPA or something. >> >>Later, >>B >>-- >>The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org >>TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >>How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml >> >>-- >>The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org >>TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >>How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 10 05:12:28 2003 From: davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (David J Patrick) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 00:12:28 -0500 Subject: Dear Santa In-Reply-To: <3FD682E7.2758E144-BwLjziHGQLusTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FD682E7.2758E144@onlink.net> Message-ID: <3FD6AB3C.8070604@sympatico.ca> Chris Aitken wrote: >Dear Santa, > >For Christmas I would like Microsoft to go out of business. I don't know >how - I haven't >thought it through. I'd just like it to curl up and die. If that's too >much to ask for I'll take >world peace. > >Thank you. > >Love, > >Chris > > Sorry to disappoint, Chris, Microsoft will never die. They will, however, be humbled. It will be a slow and agonizing process, with much wailing and moaning. There will be casualties, as the monsters limbs lash out, but most people will not notice. They will be too happy playing with lovingly crafted open source applications and a real OS. If they're real nice, we'll let them park cars outside the party. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From glayng-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 10 05:17:56 2003 From: glayng-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (Gary Layng) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 00:17:56 -0500 Subject: Dear Santa In-Reply-To: <3FD682E7.2758E144-BwLjziHGQLusTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FD682E7.2758E144@onlink.net> Message-ID: <000401c3bedc$f8a87ce0$b151fea9@omoekane> Let's see... Microsoft curling up and dying; or World Peace. The difference escapes me completely. >:) His Lordship Mayhem -----Original Message----- From: owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org [mailto:owner-tlug at ss.org] On Behalf Of Chris Aitken Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2003 9:20 PM To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Subject: [TLUG]: Dear Santa Dear Santa, For Christmas I would like Microsoft to go out of business. I don't know how - I haven't thought it through. I'd just like it to curl up and die. If that's too much to ask for I'll take world peace. Thank you. Love, Chris -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From aacton-B71PBEe7S7Y at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 10 05:16:35 2003 From: aacton-B71PBEe7S7Y at public.gmane.org (Austin Acton) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 00:16:35 -0500 Subject: YYZTechA new computer newspaper for Toronto? In-Reply-To: <3FD6A987.90907-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <017d01c3bebc$8a46ca10$ba0ce540@D2XGQ811> <3FD6A987.90907@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <1071033393.9748.4.camel@gamma373-365.portable.resnet.yorku.ca> On Wed, 2003-12-10 at 00:05, David J Patrick wrote: > Also, one this I miss, from the OLD Toronto Computes is the classified > section; hardware wanted/ for sale and services. Yes, absolutely! And also help wanted, and announcements of local computing events. Another idea might be articles about the Toronto tech job market... comparison of local tech college programs, etc. Speaking of which, I teach at Seneca, and I'm sure they'd advertize in it like crazy. Austin -- Austin Acton Synthetic Organic Chemist, Teaching Assistant, Ph.D. Candidate Department of Chemistry, York University, Toronto MandrakeLinux Volunteer Developer, homepage: www.groundstate.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jzygmont-tEQKYFGiemxAYG7eUwYNkWD2FQJk+8+b at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 10 05:26:03 2003 From: jzygmont-tEQKYFGiemxAYG7eUwYNkWD2FQJk+8+b at public.gmane.org (Justin Zygmont) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 00:26:03 -0500 (EST) Subject: dd vs. cat >/dev/xxx Message-ID: just a quick question here, I was wondering if there is really much benefit from using dd to image a floppy disk than cat >/dev/fd0. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From legrady-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 10 05:41:49 2003 From: legrady-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Tom Legrady) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 00:41:49 -0500 Subject: YYZTechA new computer newspaper for Toronto? In-Reply-To: <1071033393.9748.4.camel-33sJirT1wKzlb5+wx7kmt/BjuwtQqDz/bwi28uEu5RN+FfftCXEu2Q@public.gmane.org> References: <017d01c3bebc$8a46ca10$ba0ce540@D2XGQ811> <3FD6A987.90907@sympatico.ca> <1071033393.9748.4.camel@gamma373-365.portable.resnet.yorku.ca> Message-ID: <3FD6B21D.4060707@rogers.com> The Perl, Python, Ruby and Java communities should provide material for at least one regular column, though pestering the person responsible for the next column might be a full time job. As well, I've been involved with a group of artists interested in OS hardware and software. A geek column from the artists might be a way to increase cross-activity between those two communities. Tom Legrady Austin Acton wrote: >On Wed, 2003-12-10 at 00:05, David J Patrick wrote: > > >>Also, one this I miss, from the OLD Toronto Computes is the classified >>section; hardware wanted/ for sale and services. >> >> > >Yes, absolutely! And also help wanted, and announcements of local >computing events. > >Another idea might be articles about the Toronto tech job market... >comparison of local tech college programs, etc. Speaking of which, I >teach at Seneca, and I'm sure they'd advertize in it like crazy. > >Austin > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From c.f.a.johnson-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 10 05:56:53 2003 From: c.f.a.johnson-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Chris F.A. Johnson) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 00:56:53 -0500 (EST) Subject: YYZTechA new computer newspaper for Toronto? In-Reply-To: <017d01c3bebc$8a46ca10$ba0ce540-9Ju/zT+hGic@public.gmane.org> References: <017d01c3bebc$8a46ca10$ba0ce540@D2XGQ811> Message-ID: On Tue, 9 Dec 2003, Zoltan wrote: > In the early 1990s there where a two free newspapers providing computing > information for the Toronto audience: Toronto Computes and The Computer > Paper. Since last September these two have been replaced by HUB Canada. > Unfortunately, HUB seems to be more about consumer electronics and the > latest Windows applications than for someone looking for for an ISP with > good tech support or where to meet Linux-heads in Toronto. > > To this end I'd like to see who would be interested in a new computer paper > for the Toronto area. This would be a free and have a pro-Linux/OpenSource > stance with a focus on the Linux community here as well as providing stories > of interest to Mac and, perhaps other computer systems. Currently I'm > investigating using the news site The Register > (http://www.theregister.co.uk/) to provide some syndicated content. > > I'd like to get some feedback about this venture, specifically: > > -Is this something that is needed? Needed? Probably not. Good to have, useful? Definitely. > -What would you like to see / not see in a computer newspaper Like: Well written, well researched, meaty articles. Regular columns, both technical and editorial. Q&A columns on various aspects of computing. Dislike: Too many advertisements. (Actually, any, but that's not realistic.) > -Would you be interested in writing or helping out? Yes. I'd be interested in writing about shell scripting and using the command line. I also have editing and design experience with newspapers and magazines. -- Chris F.A. Johnson ================================================================= cfaj-uVmiyxGBW52XDw4h08c5KA at public.gmane.org http://cfaj.freeshell.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From aacton-B71PBEe7S7Y at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 10 05:58:24 2003 From: aacton-B71PBEe7S7Y at public.gmane.org (Austin Acton) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 00:58:24 -0500 Subject: YYZTechA new computer newspaper for Toronto? In-Reply-To: <3FD6B21D.4060707-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <017d01c3bebc$8a46ca10$ba0ce540@D2XGQ811> <3FD6A987.90907@sympatico.ca> <1071033393.9748.4.camel@gamma373-365.portable.resnet.yorku.ca> <3FD6B21D.4060707@rogers.com> Message-ID: <1071035902.9744.10.camel@gamma373-365.portable.resnet.yorku.ca> On Wed, 2003-12-10 at 00:41, Tom Legrady wrote: > As well, I've been involved with a group of artists interested in OS > hardware and software. A geek column from the artists might be a way to > increase cross-activity between those two communities. Yes, geeks of all types should feel welcome, even if it was to be compu-centric. You'd need a guaranteed high readership for advertizing to be viable, so it would be important to have some purely geek-related topics (video games, movies, anything Toronto+science related). Imagine Toronto's own mini-Slashdot, along with some _useful_ content. Austin -- Austin Acton Synthetic Organic Chemist, Teaching Assistant, Ph.D. Candidate Department of Chemistry, York University, Toronto MandrakeLinux Volunteer Developer, homepage: www.groundstate.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 10 06:37:55 2003 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 01:37:55 -0500 Subject: YYZTechA new computer newspaper for Toronto? In-Reply-To: <017d01c3bebc$8a46ca10$ba0ce540-9Ju/zT+hGic@public.gmane.org> References: <017d01c3bebc$8a46ca10$ba0ce540@D2XGQ811> Message-ID: <20031210063755.GA333@node1.opengeometry.net> On Tue, Dec 09, 2003 at 07:25:47PM -0600, Zoltan wrote: > In the early 1990s there where a two free newspapers providing computing > information for the Toronto audience: Toronto Computes and The Computer > Paper. Since last September these two have been replaced by HUB Canada. > Unfortunately, HUB seems to be more about consumer electronics and the > latest Windows applications Probably, because revenue comes from ads. Newspapers and magazines are there to sell ads, with writing used as fillers. > than for someone looking for for an ISP with > good tech support or where to meet Linux-heads in Toronto. > > To this end I'd like to see who would be interested in a new computer paper > for the Toronto area. This would be a free and have a pro-Linux/OpenSource Despite hype, there is nothing to "sell" on Linux or Open Source area. Well, so far, at least. > -Is this something that is needed? I think one is enough for GTA computer stores. > -What would you like to see / not see in a computer newspaper More sale items. > -Would you be interested in writing or helping out? For print newspaper or magazine, yes. For online, no. -- William Park, Open Geometry Consulting, Linux solution for data management and processing. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jzygmont-tEQKYFGiemxAYG7eUwYNkWD2FQJk+8+b at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 10 08:16:57 2003 From: jzygmont-tEQKYFGiemxAYG7eUwYNkWD2FQJk+8+b at public.gmane.org (Justin Zygmont) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 03:16:57 -0500 (EST) Subject: hard drive wanted Message-ID: I am looking for a small harddrive, maybe around 2+ gigs, for linux test installs. My current drive has been giving me problems, so i'm throwing it in the trash:) If anyone happens to have one, please let me know what you want for it, and maybe we can make a deal. thanks.. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 10 10:33:11 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 05:33:11 -0500 Subject: central mail In-Reply-To: <3FD68127.CBFB7C18-BwLjziHGQLusTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org> References: <65B7B304AA3DE147BBD33938FE204E283191AC@lynchmail.lynch.msft> <3FD538E4.4010200@rogers.com> <3FD5B8CA.6C05D871@onlink.net> <3FD65156.9090600@rogers.com> <3FD68127.CBFB7C18@onlink.net> Message-ID: <20031210053311.669c2408.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Tue, 09 Dec 2003 21:12:55 -0500 Chris Aitken wrote: > OK - thanks. That's the explanation I was hoping for. For me this will be a > > huge task. Downloading rpm's, installing software, configuring MUA, MTA, > and now, if I understand correctly, MDA. And I'm sure I will face many > questions > to which I will not know the answer. So, this explanation will be my > guiding light. RPM's? If you are running Mandrake, it's as easy as falling off a chair! It must be, because I did it in about 5 minutes. On the mail server: urpmi imap (*not* "courier imap") if Fetchmail is not installed: urpmi fetchmail-daemon (so it'll run at boot) then just configure your /etc/fetchmailrc with the info on your ISP's POP server like so: # Configuration created Fri Feb 14 02:07:47 2003 by fetchmailconf set postmaster "xxxxxxx" set bouncemail set no spambounce set properties "" set daemon 300 #number of seconds between "polls" poll pop2.sympatico.ca with proto POP3 user 'xxxxx' there with password 'xxxxx' is 'xxxxx' here options nokeep and then continue for each account, one "poll" per account. Then on the mailserver, just create user accounts for each person (that's where you put the username "is 'xxxxx' here"), eh voila! Each machine/user on your LAN, they just point their mail client at the address of the server, with their user and pass, and yer done. Personally I never used the IMAP functionality, I just used my mailserver as a regular old POP server (the IMAP package comes with both), but the mail client, if it has built-in IMAP functionality, should know what to do. -- JoeHill ++ ICQ # 280779813 Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding." -- John Kenneth Galbraith -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lists-jiQtrEI3vUxWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 10 14:18:57 2003 From: lists-jiQtrEI3vUxWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (S P Arif Sahari Wibowo) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 09:18:57 -0500 (EST) Subject: central mail In-Reply-To: <3FD68127.CBFB7C18-BwLjziHGQLusTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org> References: <65B7B304AA3DE147BBD33938FE204E283191AC@lynchmail.lynch.msft> <3FD538E4.4010200@rogers.com> <3FD5B8CA.6C05D871@onlink.net> <3FD65156.9090600@rogers.com> <3FD68127.CBFB7C18@onlink.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 9 Dec 2003, Chris Aitken wrote: >OK - thanks. That's the explanation I was hoping for. For me this will be >a huge task. Downloading rpm's, installing software, configuring MUA, >MTA, and now, if I understand correctly, MDA. I think that MDA is an other name for MTA. Your system should have MTA installed already (probably sendmail), and most likely the default configuration is adequate this case. You just have to install IMAP server, and using rpm it should be a breeze. As far as I know, it will need minimal or no configuration. So you just have to configure the MUA. -- Stephan Paul Arif Sahari Wibowo _____ _____ _____ _____ /____ /____/ /____/ /____ _____/ / / / _____/ http://www.arifsaha.com/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lists-tZhE6lH4Esk+k03BA+Hq9g at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 10 14:24:33 2003 From: lists-tZhE6lH4Esk+k03BA+Hq9g at public.gmane.org (Oliver Meyn) Date: 10 Dec 2003 09:24:33 -0500 Subject: In the Beginning was the Command Line Message-ID: <1071066273.4922.19.camel@theconstruct.mineallmeyn.net> Hi All, This essay will no doubt appeal to many of you (and I'm sure many of you have read it), but rather than promoting self-aggrandizement I rather like his proposal that M$ isn't actually evil, they're just doing what they promised their shareholders they'd do - make them money, and damn the torpedoes. If that happens to cause major headaches for those of us who care about how computers are used, well, too bad - go capitalism. This reeks of I know, so apologies in advance. *ducks* Oliver -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 10 14:35:56 2003 From: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 09:35:56 -0500 (EST) Subject: central mail In-Reply-To: References: <65B7B304AA3DE147BBD33938FE204E283191AC@lynchmail.lynch.msft> <3FD538E4.4010200@rogers.com> <3FD5B8CA.6C05D871@onlink.net> <3FD65156.9090600@rogers.com> <3FD68127.CBFB7C18@onlink.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Dec 2003, S P Arif Sahari Wibowo wrote: > I think that MDA is an other name for MTA. No, they are distinct concepts. The confusion comes because they are closely tied together and in some cases may even be different instances of the same application. Sendmail used to come with an MDA called "deliver" which was so closely tied to the app that most mail admins didn't even realise it was there or that they were using it (unledd they examined sendmail.cf), but being aware of the ability to use different MDAs can be very very useful indeed. Rob -- Robert Brockway B.Sc. email: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org, zzbrock at uqconnect.net Linux counter project ID #16440 (http://counter.li.org) "The earth is but one country and mankind its citizens" -Baha'u'llah -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 10 14:45:28 2003 From: fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Fraser Campbell) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 09:45:28 -0500 Subject: central mail In-Reply-To: References: <65B7B304AA3DE147BBD33938FE204E283191AC@lynchmail.lynch.msft> <3FD68127.CBFB7C18@onlink.net> Message-ID: <200312100945.28303.fraser@wehave.net> On Wednesday 10 December 2003 09:18, S P Arif Sahari Wibowo wrote: > On Tue, 9 Dec 2003, Chris Aitken wrote: > >OK - thanks. That's the explanation I was hoping for. For me this will be > >a huge task. Downloading rpm's, installing software, configuring MUA, > >MTA, and now, if I understand correctly, MDA. > > I think that MDA is an other name for MTA. Acutally I believe MDA is "Mail Delivery Agent". It's typically used to refer to the process that takes care of writing your email to your mailbox (i.e. /var/spool/mail/$user or $HOME/Maildir/). Often the MDA is procmail but many MTAs have built in MDAs so the use of procmail isn't essential (though it is still useful). maildrop is another popular MDA. -- Fraser Campbell http://www.wehave.net/ Halton Hills, Ontario, Canada Debian GNU/Linux -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 10 14:55:07 2003 From: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 09:55:07 -0500 (EST) Subject: In the Beginning was the Command Line In-Reply-To: <1071066273.4922.19.camel-0lXLkTl3c71ptQ/RaucIWavRY+knis1x5NbjCUgZEJk@public.gmane.org> References: <1071066273.4922.19.camel@theconstruct.mineallmeyn.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Dec 2003, Oliver Meyn wrote: > Hi All, > > I'd like him to backup his claim that Bill Gates & Paul Allen came up with the idea of selling an OS. Gosh people come out with some rubbish. There were plenty of OSes for sale when they got in the biz. Many hardware platforms had several OSes available for purchase at least a decade before anyone thought of MS-DOS (and probably a lot more). How big is the article that the remainder of it is packaged as a zip file? :) > This essay will no doubt appeal to many of you (and I'm sure many of you > have read it), but rather than promoting self-aggrandizement I rather > like his proposal that M$ isn't actually evil, they're just doing what The problem is MS had engaged in unethical and in some cases illegal behaviour over a period of 20 years or more. This is why the US DoJ and others keep doing them over in court. I won't go into details as they are well recorded online. At what point is it not ok for a company to do something for the sake of shareholders? Illegal activitiies count, and to me, so do unethical behaviours. > they promised their shareholders they'd do - make them money, and damn > the torpedoes. If that happens to cause major headaches for those of us > who care about how computers are used, well, too bad - go capitalism. Personally I think pure capitialism can be quite dangerous. It tends to transfer power & money into the hands of the few at the expense of the many. OTOH, Regulated capitalism can be quite healthy (IMHO of course :) Rob -- Robert Brockway B.Sc. email: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org, zzbrock at uqconnect.net Linux counter project ID #16440 (http://counter.li.org) "The earth is but one country and mankind its citizens" -Baha'u'llah -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From tchitow-PkbjNfxxIARBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 10 15:00:10 2003 From: tchitow-PkbjNfxxIARBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Martin Duclos) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 10:00:10 -0500 Subject: YYZTechA new computer newspaper for Toronto? Message-ID: I'd be interested in contributing to the project. Java related articles and possibly perl as well as newbie FAQs. Coverage of the TLUG meetings? Sing my up! Martin Duclos tchitow-PkbjNfxxIARBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org ----Original Message Follows---- From: William Park Reply-To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Subject: Re: [TLUG]: YYZTechA new computer newspaper for Toronto? Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 01:37:55 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: from lethe.ss.org ([206.108.5.1]) by mc5-f4.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6824); Tue, 9 Dec 2003 22:38:15 -0800 Received: by lethe.ss.org (Postfix)id E0A8E6D4B0; Wed, 10 Dec 2003 01:37:55 -0500 (EST) Received: by lethe.ss.org (Postfix, from userid 54)id 9942F6D4AE; Wed, 10 Dec 2003 01:37:55 -0500 (EST) X-Message-Info: JGTYoYF78jFXbUPCWu8wmXTvDN8yKrR8 Delivered-To: tlug-route-MHjupGqSvN5g9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org X-Original-To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Delivered-To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Message-ID: <20031210063755.GA333-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ at public.gmane.org> Mail-Followup-To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org References: <017d01c3bebc$8a46ca10$ba0ce540-9Ju/zT+hGic at public.gmane.org> In-Reply-To: <017d01c3bebc$8a46ca10$ba0ce540-9Ju/zT+hGic at public.gmane.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Precedence: list Return-Path: owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org X-OriginalArrivalTime: 10 Dec 2003 06:38:15.0833 (UTC) FILETIME=[30E24090:01C3BEE8] On Tue, Dec 09, 2003 at 07:25:47PM -0600, Zoltan wrote: > In the early 1990s there where a two free newspapers providing computing > information for the Toronto audience: Toronto Computes and The Computer > Paper. Since last September these two have been replaced by HUB Canada. > Unfortunately, HUB seems to be more about consumer electronics and the > latest Windows applications Probably, because revenue comes from ads. Newspapers and magazines are there to sell ads, with writing used as fillers. > than for someone looking for for an ISP with > good tech support or where to meet Linux-heads in Toronto. > > To this end I'd like to see who would be interested in a new computer paper > for the Toronto area. This would be a free and have a pro-Linux/OpenSource Despite hype, there is nothing to "sell" on Linux or Open Source area. Well, so far, at least. > -Is this something that is needed? I think one is enough for GTA computer stores. > -What would you like to see / not see in a computer newspaper More sale items. > -Would you be interested in writing or helping out? For print newspaper or magazine, yes. For online, no. -- William Park, Open Geometry Consulting, Linux solution for data management and processing. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/bcomm&pgmarket=en-ca&RU=http%3a%2f%2fjoin.msn.com%2f%3fpage%3dmisc%2fspecialoffers%26pgmarket%3den-ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 10 15:24:36 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 10:24:36 -0500 Subject: In the Beginning was the Command Line In-Reply-To: References: <1071066273.4922.19.camel@theconstruct.mineallmeyn.net> Message-ID: <20031210102436.7381badf.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 09:55:07 -0500 (EST) Robert Brockway wrote: > Personally I think pure capitialism can be quite dangerous. It tends to > transfer power & money into the hands of the few at the expense of the > many. OTOH, Regulated capitalism can be quite healthy (IMHO of course :) Your "humble opinion" is in fact backed up by some pretty big guns. Read anything from Adam Smith, all the way up to giants like Keynes or Galbraith, and you will find that you are on some pretty solid ground there. The problem really isn't that Capitalism is a totally free market, as you seem to be hinting at, it's that it is in fact *not* a free market. It concentrates power around those who *have* capital, and therefore works against the free flow of trade, and also against innovation. Once a corporation has obtained a position of power, there is very little incentive to compete or innovate, more to keep pushing the same obsolete product at higher and higher profit. This is what has allowed Microsoft, a business doing what anyone would expect a business to do in a Capitalist environment, to use the power of concentrated wealth to make it more difficult for others to compete, so as to further enrich their shareholders and other beneficiaries. Of course, having the State take over the reigns of the economy is no better, as Galbraith's famous quote humourously implies: "In Capitalism, man exploits man. In Communism it is exactly the opposite." Money is not the root of all evil, it's the way we *use* money that is so harmful. Someone on this list, a ways back, pointed out that there are far more viable economic models insofar as trade and commerce, one of which, IIRC, was based on the idea that money does not increase in value over time (incentive to hoard, stagnate), but actually loses value over time (incentive to spend, build, expand). -- JoeHill ++ ICQ # 280779813 Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "Where the state begins, individual liberty ceases, and vice versa." -- Bakunin -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From taavi-LbuTpDkqzNzXI80/IeQp7B2eb7JE58TQ at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 10 15:27:10 2003 From: taavi-LbuTpDkqzNzXI80/IeQp7B2eb7JE58TQ at public.gmane.org (Taavi Burns) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 10:27:10 -0500 Subject: dd vs. cat >/dev/xxx In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20031210152710.GW2033@hatefulsheep> On Wed, Dec 10, 2003 at 12:26:03AM -0500, Justin Zygmont wrote: > just a quick question here, I was wondering if there is really much > benefit from using dd to image a floppy disk than cat >/dev/fd0. With correct options, dd will go a LOT faster. dd if=yourfile.img of=/dev/fd0 bs=64k Be sure that bs is a multiple of your device's sector size, or you'll really hurt performance. Floppy sectors are only 512 bytes, but buffering (i.e. doing IOs in blocks of) at that size is highly inefficient. 64k seems to work nicely for me...I seem to vaguely remember 18k being optimal, though (one full track). -- taa /*eof*/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From talexb-SBdzbUvMQDunS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 10 15:32:02 2003 From: talexb-SBdzbUvMQDunS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org (talexb-SBdzbUvMQDunS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 10:32:02 -0500 (EST) Subject: In the Beginning was the Command Line In-Reply-To: References: <1071066273.4922.19.camel@theconstruct.mineallmeyn.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Dec 2003, Robert Brockway wrote: > On Wed, 10 Dec 2003, Oliver Meyn wrote: > > > Hi All, > > > > > > [..] > > How big is the article that the remainder of it is packaged as a zip file? > :) Robert, It expanded out to 64 pages when I pulled it into AbiWord -- way too long to read in one sitting. Seems like the authour is the same age as me, though -- in 1973 I was also sitting in front of a teletype with paper tape reader and a 110 baud modem, dialing into the PSBGM system to do some noodling around in BASIC. The incantation HEL K603,^B^E^A^A was the login for that account (or something like it). We would write 10 GOTO 10 RUN and let it sit for a few seconds, then press ^C to stop it ^C STOPPED CPU TIME: 13.74 SECONDS and cram our fists into our mouths to stop from laughing out loud -- the Math teacher (Al Seddon) might be in the next office and come out to see what was so funny. Every week Mr. Seddon would put up the sheet for computer time (twenty minute slots) on the computer room door, and we'd scramble to write our names in. Oh, man. Good memories. I may get to read the rest of the (longish) essay -- however as it was written in January 1999 (almost four years ago) it may not be as relevant as I originally hoped. Alex Beamish -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From taavi-LbuTpDkqzNzXI80/IeQp7B2eb7JE58TQ at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 10 15:50:00 2003 From: taavi-LbuTpDkqzNzXI80/IeQp7B2eb7JE58TQ at public.gmane.org (Taavi Burns) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 10:50:00 -0500 Subject: In the Beginning was the Command Line In-Reply-To: References: <1071066273.4922.19.camel@theconstruct.mineallmeyn.net> Message-ID: <20031210155000.GX2033@hatefulsheep> On Wed, Dec 10, 2003 at 09:55:07AM -0500, Robert Brockway wrote: > On Wed, 10 Dec 2003, Oliver Meyn wrote: > > > > How big is the article that the remainder of it is packaged as a zip file? > :) About 70 pages when formatted as a paperback book, iirc. Yes, I had a lot of fun with LaTeX, making it 2-up, and printing on both sides of the sheet of paper. :) -- taa /*eof*/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From mikehill-yqNZbDEBI9QAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 10 15:56:18 2003 From: mikehill-yqNZbDEBI9QAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Michael Hill) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 10:56:18 -0500 Subject: In the Beginning was the Command Line In-Reply-To: <20031210155000.GX2033-9xiANKxwco6iqb11nhpoTg@public.gmane.org> References: <1071066273.4922.19.camel@theconstruct.mineallmeyn.net> <20031210155000.GX2033@hatefulsheep> Message-ID: <1071071777.13116.45.camel@dilbert.hgeng.com> On Wed, 2003-12-10 at 10:50, Taavi Burns wrote: > About 70 pages when formatted as a paperback book, iirc. Yes, I > had a lot of fun with LaTeX, making it 2-up, and printing on both > sides of the sheet of paper. I read it at 8.5x11 when it was introduced on Slashdot, then ordered the paperback from Chapters to lend out. Mike -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 9 18:56:01 2003 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter L. Peres) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 20:56:01 +0200 (IST) Subject: M$ to license FAT In-Reply-To: <20031208131615.B24184-TU2q2He6PgRlD5gtYiU6kEEOCMrvLtNR@public.gmane.org> References: <20031205212652.E63A0402B@cbbrowne.com> <20031208113447.B24061@algate.perlwolf.com> <20031208123742.A24184@algate.perlwolf.com> <20031208164529.GA2033@hatefulsheep> <20031208131615.B24184@algate.perlwolf.com> Message-ID: I have seen some interesting arguments on this thread (I think I am the o.p.). My thinking is, that the point is, what do the borg lawyers think, not what the list thinks. The borg lawyers have deep enough pockets so they can think whatever they want. That probably includes thinking that the earth is in fact, flat. My question more or less was, what would the impact on Linux be in *that* case. Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 9 19:20:10 2003 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter L. Peres) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 21:20:10 +0200 (IST) Subject: central mail In-Reply-To: <3FD5171B.A49304B9-BwLjziHGQLusTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FD5171B.A49304B9@onlink.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 8 Dec 2003, Chris Aitken wrote: > I have been using Netscape Messenger for email for some time. > It has served me well. > > I now need to move to a system by which I can see the same > email from two different PCs. Sounds like a simple thing but I have > a feeling this is going to entail a huge learning curve and maybe even > moving to a different email system. Tick the box that says 'leave messages on server' in Nestcape email options (also delete deleted mail on server if you have it). Then you can access the same mail from as many clients as you like (with the same settings as shown above). Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From sidney-3Kd7Tu4o6f/sBN0MCq728g at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 10 16:21:35 2003 From: sidney-3Kd7Tu4o6f/sBN0MCq728g at public.gmane.org (Sidney Shapiro) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 11:21:35 -0500 Subject: A couple of questions Message-ID: <003901c3bf39$b1bcfe20$6401a8c0@main> Hi all, I have a client thinking of setting up a mail server in his office, as well as a backup system. I set up something similar to this for another client using RH, and a lot of help. His hosting is currently with Blue Genesis, and his in office internet connection is through Sympatico. Since he does not have a static IP, would it be difficult to set up a mail server for him? I figure if I change the zone file for mail to a dynamic DNS program on the server, he will be able to use pop/smtp connects through the server. How would that work since the domain and the mail are going to different places? Also, as far as backup goes, can I do an rsync to a whole bunch of Windows machines (XP, NT, 2000, 98, 95, ME) and then do comparative backups at intervals? Any help is really appreciated, Sid -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lists-jiQtrEI3vUxWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 10 17:07:09 2003 From: lists-jiQtrEI3vUxWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (S P Arif Sahari Wibowo) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 12:07:09 -0500 (EST) Subject: Free market, not Capitalism (Re: In the Beginning was the Command Line) In-Reply-To: <20031210102436.7381badf.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <1071066273.4922.19.camel@theconstruct.mineallmeyn.net> <20031210102436.7381badf.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Dec 2003, JoeHill wrote: >The problem really isn't that Capitalism is a totally free market, as you >seem to be hinting at, it's that it is in fact *not* a free market. It >concentrates power around those who *have* capital, and therefore works >against the free flow of trade, and also against innovation. 100% agree. IMHO, ideally economy should based on effort, not capital. This will work well with free market. In fact, I think a economy based on effort will be an utopia. Unfortunately, effort is hard to measure. It is true that there is small correlation between effort and gaining capital. That's why controlled capitalism can work, albeit just Ok. -- Stephan Paul Arif Sahari Wibowo _____ _____ _____ _____ /____ /____/ /____/ /____ _____/ / / / _____/ http://www.arifsaha.com/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 10 17:57:05 2003 From: fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Fraser Campbell) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 12:57:05 -0500 Subject: Anyone have experience with Asterisk In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200312101257.05734.fraser@wehave.net> On Friday 05 December 2003 11:33, Matthew Rice wrote: > I'm looking to setup an Asterisk-based PBX with extensions in the office > and at homes. There seems to be a lot of options on the client side [from > gnophone, some cisco hardware phones, qtphone, ...]. > > Does anyone have a similar [or partial] setup like this? Can you offer > some advice on which clients have worked best? I am curious if anyone has compared asterisk to vocal (or other OSS PBXes, if they exist)? -- Fraser Campbell http://www.wehave.net/ Georgetown, Ontario, Canada Debian GNU/Linux -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From aitken-BwLjziHGQLusTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 10 17:29:11 2003 From: aitken-BwLjziHGQLusTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Chris Aitken) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 12:29:11 -0500 Subject: central mail References: <3FD5171B.A49304B9@onlink.net> Message-ID: <3FD757E7.F8D570D8@onlink.net> "Peter L. Peres" wrote: > [...] > > Tick the box that says 'leave messages on server' in Nestcape > email options (also delete deleted mail on server if you have it). Then > you can access the same mail from as many clients as you like (with the > same settings as shown above). Interesting that it took a while for someone to suggest the lowest tech solution of all! Not that I'm complaining, as I think procmail, fetchmail et al are in my very near future. : ) I was doing what you suggested but, for a reason unbeknownst to me, one machine is not playing nice in the sandbox: Even though I have the setting you suggest (along with 'when deleting a message locally, remove it from the server') the mail does stay on the server, but the same mail keeps loading over and over. So, I get multiple copies of the same mail. No problem with my other computer - it's Netscape leaves mail on the server until I delete it locally (i.e. empth Trash). I'll try check my settings on both PCs yet again. Then I'll test them both by downloading, deleting, emptying Trash folder and see if the mail is removed from the server. Thanks, Peter. /home/chris -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 10 18:27:29 2003 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 13:27:29 -0500 Subject: quiet PC In-Reply-To: <20031209123744.6cd3f4c8.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FD51233.6E2F5C25@onlink.net> <3FD6043B.9010901@oeone.net> <20031209123744.6cd3f4c8.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <20031210182729.GA27521@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Dec 09, 2003 at 12:37:44PM -0500, JoeHill wrote: > Do they actually build custom systems? I'll hopefully be looking for a > "bare-bones" system in the near future, probably AMD based, and I'm looking for > a good place to go. Last place I checked, Computer Central Canada, said they > didn't recommend AMD, as that is their number one return item. Bigfoot Computers mostly sells cooling parts, not really that much general purpose computer stuff. Too many other places already sell that stuff. Check their website and you will see. Makes you wonder if they don't build their systems properly. AMD has pretty simple requriements on power supply and cooling on their web site and generic cheap 300W power supplies may just not be good enough for a stable system. Of course the end user that just looks at price doesn't know that. > Which begs the question, "why do you sell it?" It's cheaper and they like selling to the people that look at price first? Lennart Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lists-jiQtrEI3vUxWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 10 18:32:26 2003 From: lists-jiQtrEI3vUxWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (S P Arif Sahari Wibowo) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 13:32:26 -0500 (EST) Subject: central mail In-Reply-To: <200312100945.28303.fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org> References: <65B7B304AA3DE147BBD33938FE204E283191AC@lynchmail.lynch.msft> <3FD68127.CBFB7C18@onlink.net> <200312100945.28303.fraser@wehave.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Dec 2003, Fraser Campbell wrote: >It's typically used to refer to the process that takes care of writing >your email to your mailbox (i.e. /var/spool/mail/$user or >$HOME/Maildir/). I stand corrected. So MDA is the part sometime called "local delivery agent", right? This will depend on the choice of mailbox format, and in turn related closely to the choice of IMAP server. In fact I think some IMAP servers have MDA specifically made for them. -- Stephan Paul Arif Sahari Wibowo _____ _____ _____ _____ /____ /____/ /____/ /____ _____/ / / / _____/ http://www.arifsaha.com/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 10 18:46:56 2003 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 13:46:56 -0500 Subject: A couple of questions In-Reply-To: <003901c3bf39$b1bcfe20$6401a8c0-UxDKcUsq0RM@public.gmane.org> References: <003901c3bf39$b1bcfe20$6401a8c0@main> Message-ID: <20031210184656.GA346@node1.opengeometry.net> On Wed, Dec 10, 2003 at 11:21:35AM -0500, Sidney Shapiro wrote: > Hi all, > > I have a client thinking of setting up a mail server in his office, as > well as a backup system. I set up something similar to this for another > client using RH, and a lot of help. His hosting is currently with Blue > Genesis, and his in office internet connection is through Sympatico. > Since he does not have a static IP, would it be difficult to set up a > mail server for him? I figure if I change the zone file for mail to a > dynamic DNS program on the server, he will be able to use pop/smtp > connects through the server. Usually, hosting company also provide email with the domain. Having DNS on his server which is on dynamic IP won't do much for outsider trying to send mail to his server. > How would that work since the domain and the mail are going to > different places? Also, as far as backup goes, can I do an rsync to a > whole bunch of Windows machines (XP, NT, 2000, 98, 95, ME) and then do > comparative backups at intervals? I don't think 'rsync' is available on Windows. You can go the other way, though, ie. backup Windows to Linux. -- William Park, Open Geometry Consulting, Linux solution for data management and processing. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 10 18:51:40 2003 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 13:51:40 -0500 Subject: In the Beginning was the Command Line In-Reply-To: <20031210102436.7381badf.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <1071066273.4922.19.camel@theconstruct.mineallmeyn.net> <20031210102436.7381badf.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <20031210185140.GB27521@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Dec 10, 2003 at 10:24:36AM -0500, JoeHill wrote: > Your "humble opinion" is in fact backed up by some pretty big guns. Read > anything from Adam Smith, all the way up to giants like Keynes or Galbraith, and > you will find that you are on some pretty solid ground there. > > The problem really isn't that Capitalism is a totally free market, as you seem > to be hinting at, it's that it is in fact *not* a free market. It concentrates > power around those who *have* capital, and therefore works against the free flow > of trade, and also against innovation. Once a corporation has obtained a > position of power, there is very little incentive to compete or innovate, more > to keep pushing the same obsolete product at higher and higher profit. > > This is what has allowed Microsoft, a business doing what anyone would expect a > business to do in a Capitalist environment, to use the power of concentrated > wealth to make it more difficult for others to compete, so as to further enrich > their shareholders and other beneficiaries. > > Of course, having the State take over the reigns of the economy is no better, as > Galbraith's famous quote humourously implies: > > "In Capitalism, man exploits man. In Communism it is exactly the opposite." > > Money is not the root of all evil, it's the way we *use* money that is so > harmful. Someone on this list, a ways back, pointed out that there are far more > viable economic models insofar as trade and commerce, one of which, IIRC, was > based on the idea that money does not increase in value over time > (incentive to hoard, stagnate), but actually loses value over time (incentive to > spend, build, expand). I wonder what some south american countries would think of your idea. I don't think their devaluation of money has helped their economy at all. Incentive to spend rather than horde may be an OK idea, but money that looses value isn't necesarily such a good thing, although I guess at the moment basic interest rate isn't doing much better than inflation. Of course encouraging people to spend money they don't have is a really bad idea and I think that too happens sometimes when spending is encouraged too much. Lennart Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 10 18:54:05 2003 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 13:54:05 -0500 Subject: A couple of questions In-Reply-To: <20031210184656.GA346-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <003901c3bf39$b1bcfe20$6401a8c0@main> <20031210184656.GA346@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <20031210185405.GC27521@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Dec 10, 2003 at 01:46:56PM -0500, William Park wrote: > I don't think 'rsync' is available on Windows. You can go the other > way, though, ie. backup Windows to Linux. cygwin if nothing else is. There may even be rsync with native windows support. Lennart Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 10 19:02:56 2003 From: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 14:02:56 -0500 (EST) Subject: central mail In-Reply-To: References: <65B7B304AA3DE147BBD33938FE204E283191AC@lynchmail.lynch.msft> <3FD68127.CBFB7C18@onlink.net> <200312100945.28303.fraser@wehave.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Dec 2003, S P Arif Sahari Wibowo wrote: > turn related closely to the choice of IMAP server. In fact I think some > IMAP servers have MDA specifically made for them. I can't think of any IMAP servers that are closely tied to an MDA. Remember, the MDA is part of mail delivery while IMAP relates to mail pickup. They are quite distinct (but complementary) tasks. One of the great things about email is that it is so easy to mix & match different receipt (MTA), delivery (MDA) and pickup methods (MUA or IMAP or POP3). Ok, so I'm mixing protocol & non-protocol acronyms there but I hope it is clear what I'm saying. Cheers, Rob -- Robert Brockway B.Sc. email: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org, zzbrock at uqconnect.net Linux counter project ID #16440 (http://counter.li.org) "The earth is but one country and mankind its citizens" -Baha'u'llah -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From blsonne-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 10 19:20:37 2003 From: blsonne-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Byron Sonne) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 14:20:37 -0500 Subject: hard drive wanted In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3FD77205.2030203@rogers.com> > I am looking for a small harddrive, maybe around 2+ gigs, for linux test > installs. My current drive has been giving me problems, so i'm throwing > it in the trash:) If anyone happens to have one, please let me know what > you want for it, and maybe we can make a deal. I have a bunch in ~2GB and ~4GB, but SCSI only I'm afraid. However, having gone through my stash and reorganized I found I have more SCSI controllers than I thought. I'd have no problem throwing one in but you're probably looking at only 10MB/s xfer rate. 2940AU I believe. If anyone else out there needs a drive the offer's open for that too, but minus a controller since I need to hang on to the rest. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lists-jiQtrEI3vUxWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 10 19:29:50 2003 From: lists-jiQtrEI3vUxWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (S P Arif Sahari Wibowo) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 14:29:50 -0500 (EST) Subject: central mail In-Reply-To: References: <65B7B304AA3DE147BBD33938FE204E283191AC@lynchmail.lynch.msft> <3FD68127.CBFB7C18@onlink.net> <200312100945.28303.fraser@wehave.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Dec 2003, Robert Brockway wrote: >I can't think of any IMAP servers that are closely tied to an MDA. For example, UW-IMAP support a mailbox format "mbx" . To allow MTA to deliver mail into that format, there are MDAs such as dmail and tmail created specifically to do the delivering. These tools are part of mail-util package . >One of the great things about email is that it is so easy to mix & match >different receipt (MTA), delivery (MDA) and pickup methods (MUA or IMAP >or POP3). Well, since both MDA and IMAP server both access the mailbox, the format of mailbox chosen will dictate what MDA and IMAP server can chosen. -- Stephan Paul Arif Sahari Wibowo _____ _____ _____ _____ /____ /____/ /____/ /____ _____/ / / / _____/ http://www.arifsaha.com/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 10 19:33:54 2003 From: fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Fraser Campbell) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 14:33:54 -0500 Subject: central mail In-Reply-To: <3FD757E7.F8D570D8-BwLjziHGQLusTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FD5171B.A49304B9@onlink.net> <3FD757E7.F8D570D8@onlink.net> Message-ID: <200312101433.54738.fraser@wehave.net> On Wednesday 10 December 2003 12:29, Chris Aitken wrote: > > Tick the box that says 'leave messages on server' in Nestcape > > email options (also delete deleted mail on server if you have it). Then > > you can access the same mail from as many clients as you like (with the > > same settings as shown above). > > Interesting that it took a while for someone to suggest the lowest tech > solution of all! Not that I'm complaining, as I think procmail, fetchmail > et al are in my very near future. : ) There's a reason it wasn't suggested before, see the problems that you are having ... > I was doing what you suggested > but, for a reason unbeknownst to me, one machine is not playing nice > in the sandbox: Even though I have the setting you suggest (along with > 'when > deleting a message locally, remove it from the server') the mail does stay > on > the server, but the same mail keeps loading over and over. So, I get -- Fraser Campbell http://www.wehave.net/ Georgetown, Ontario, Canada Debian GNU/Linux -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From blsonne-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 10 19:34:48 2003 From: blsonne-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Byron Sonne) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 14:34:48 -0500 Subject: A couple of questions (win rsync does exist!) In-Reply-To: <20031210184656.GA346-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <003901c3bf39$b1bcfe20$6401a8c0@main> <20031210184656.GA346@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <3FD77558.4010502@rogers.com> > I don't think 'rsync' is available on Windows. You can go the other > way, though, ie. backup Windows to Linux. Having retweaked my setup I've started backing up everything in the house lately, and with my boxen either linux or bsd, rsync gets used. My wife just finalized her move from windows to mac (OS X), but the need existed to back up both machines. How I feared that I'd have to go without rsync! But that wasn't the case. Found gui rsync programs for both platforms, though I can't remember their names right now. I suspect 'winrsync' or 'windows rsync' were the search strings I used. The OS X software was right off Apple's site and was just a layer on top of a port of rsync methinks. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From michael-3aH0qR8MVRD3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 10 20:45:30 2003 From: michael-3aH0qR8MVRD3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Michael Coburn) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 15:45:30 -0500 (EST) Subject: mangled SMTP headers with spamassassin / qmail / debian stable (long) Message-ID: <58257.66.241.132.132.1071089130.squirrel@lisa.cap.lan> Hi, I've been using Debian for about 4 months on the desktop and was so impressed with unstable, that I decided to migrate my home firewall away from Red Hat 7.3 to Debian stable. I'm running qmail and have installed spamassassin 2.20, which relays into an Exchange machine on the internal network via user .qmail files. The problem I'm having is that the SMTP header information is getting mangled somewhere along the way. The emails appear on the Exchange box, but only show the sender's email address, and the subject line of (no subject). I get this for SMTP header info:---- Received: from lisa.gravis.ca ([192.168.2.1]) by marge.cap.lan with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5329); Wed, 10 Dec 2003 15:13:06 -0500 Received: (qmail 23317 invoked by uid 1000); 10 Dec 2003 20:13:06 -0000 From: mcoburn-hJeZYcpktVksA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Bcc: Return-Path: mcoburn-hJeZYcpktVksA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 10 Dec 2003 20:13:06.0356 (UTC) FILETIME=[05E80740:01C3BF5A]Date: 10 Dec 2003 15:13:06 -0500 ---- This appears to be only the SMTP header info added from the relay qmail box over to the Exchange machine. In the body of the message, the full SMTP header info is printed: ---- From michael-3aH0qR8MVRD3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 10 21:26:43 2003 From: michael-3aH0qR8MVRD3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Michael Coburn) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 16:26:43 -0500 (EST) Subject: mangled SMTP headers with spamassassin / qmail / debian stable (long) Message-ID: <57984.66.241.132.132.1071091603.squirrel@lisa.cap.lan> Hi, after re-reading my email I might have left out one piece. The mail coming into the relay machine is pushed to qmail via a shell script called /var/qmail/bin/qmail-queue:---- #!/bin/sh /usr/bin/spamc | /var/qmail/bin/qmail-queue.orig ---- I moved the original binary file qmail-queue to qmail-queue.orig . When I remove the shell script and rename the .orig file back to qmail-queue, the system relays i.e. all SMTP header info is correct. Any ideas?-- michael -------- Original Message -------- Subject: From: owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Date: Wed, December 10, 2003 3:46 pm To: Hi, I've been using Debian for about 4 months on the desktop and was so impressed with unstable, that I decided to migrate my home firewall away from Red Hat 7.3 to Debian stable. I'm running qmail and have installed spamassassin 2.20, which relays into an Exchange machine on the internal network via user .qmail files. The problem I'm having is that the SMTP header information is getting mangled somewhere along the way. The emails appear on the Exchange box, but only show the sender's email address, and the subject line of (no subject). I get this for SMTP header info:---- Received: from lisa.gravis.ca ([192.168.2.1]) by marge.cap.lan with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5329); Wed, 10 Dec 2003 15:13:06 -0500 Received: (qmail 23317 invoked by uid 1000); 10 Dec 2003 20:13:06 -0000 From: mcoburn-hJeZYcpktVksA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Bcc: Return-Path: mcoburn-hJeZYcpktVksA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 10 Dec 2003 20:13:06.0356 (UTC) FILETIME=[05E80740:01C3BF5A]Date: 10 Dec 2003 15:13:06 -0500 ---- This appears to be only the SMTP header info added from the relay qmail box over to the Exchange machine. In the body of the message, the full SMTP header info is printed: ---- From mcoburn-hJeZYcpktVksA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 10 20:12:49 2003 From: mcoburn-hJeZYcpktVksA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Michael Coburn) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 15:12:49 -0500 Subject: [SPAM] a test for spam Message-ID: An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 10 21:29:08 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 16:29:08 -0500 Subject: In the Beginning was the Command Line In-Reply-To: <20031210185140.GB27521-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <1071066273.4922.19.camel@theconstruct.mineallmeyn.net> <20031210102436.7381badf.joehill@sympatico.ca> <20031210185140.GB27521@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20031210162908.7e1840c8.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 13:51:40 -0500 lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) wrote: > I wonder what some south american countries would think of your idea. I > don't think their devaluation of money has helped their economy at all. LOL! Of course, it doesn't work if *everyone* doesn't participate. Besides, it's a little more complicated than the one-line explanation that I provided, so I don't think you can take too much from it. > Incentive to spend rather than horde may be an OK idea, but money that > looses value isn't necesarily such a good thing, although I guess at the > moment basic interest rate isn't doing much better than inflation. Of > course encouraging people to spend money they don't have is a really bad > idea and I think that too happens sometimes when spending is encouraged > too much. Well, only *money* loses value, so there's not necessarily any real effect on personal wealth. One's wealth comes from material and/or service accrual, and *cash flow*, instead of interest. You'd be better off reading about it from someone who can explain it in more detail, in the long run. That was really just a one-liner in a much bigger argument, an example of an alternative mainly. Thanks for correcting my spelling of "horde" though, it does have a bit of a different meaning the other way... ;-) -- JoeHill ++ ICQ # 280779813 Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." -- Hunter S. Thompson -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From marcus.brubaker-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 10 22:03:25 2003 From: marcus.brubaker-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Marcus Brubaker) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 17:03:25 -0500 Subject: In the Beginning was the Command Line In-Reply-To: <20031210162908.7e1840c8.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <1071066273.4922.19.camel@theconstruct.mineallmeyn.net> <20031210102436.7381badf.joehill@sympatico.ca> <20031210185140.GB27521@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20031210162908.7e1840c8.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <1071093805.12446.62.camel@rincewind.discworld> On Wed, 2003-12-10 at 16:29, JoeHill wrote: > On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 13:51:40 -0500 > lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) wrote: > > > I wonder what some south american countries would think of your idea. I > > don't think their devaluation of money has helped their economy at all. > > LOL! Of course, it doesn't work if *everyone* doesn't participate. Besides, it's > a little more complicated than the one-line explanation that I provided, > so I don't think you can take too much from it. The same could be said of every major system. Communism would work beautifully...if only everyone participated. The reality is that any successful system of capital must be able to handle non-participants. In a sense, thats the beauty of capitalism, there is no way to not participate short of not having capital. Actually, the South American markets (Brazil in particular) provide an even better counter-example to what I understand you to be suggesting than just the recent currency devaluations. In the 1970s and 1980s the Brazilian government spent money they didn't have in an attempt to distribute capital and build the economy. Unfortunately, this caused hyperinflation (> 1000% inflation) and utterly decimated the middle class which didn't have the funds to invest in more stable resources to protect the capital from the inflation that the government was causing. My girlfriends parents were living in Brazil in the 1980s. The reality of life wasn't pleasant. People were payed (at least) twice a day and given a break immediately after being payed to go out and buy food with their pay before prices went up further. If you didn't have a job you were screwed because any savings you had were worthless unless they were invested in other resources. You can't really blame external forces for this inflation[1] either, because at the time Brazil had completely isolated itself from imports in order to encourage internal industries. The key is that money is a commodity and its value is dictated by supply and demand just like everything else. The benefit of using a currency over hard goods is precisely that it can be borrowed without it actually existing. You can't borrow a loaf of bread that doesn't exist, but you can borrow money which doesn't really exist. This allows investment and economic growth that wouldn't otherwise be possible. > > > Incentive to spend rather than horde may be an OK idea, but money that > > looses value isn't necesarily such a good thing, although I guess at the > > moment basic interest rate isn't doing much better than inflation. Of > > course encouraging people to spend money they don't have is a really bad > > idea and I think that too happens sometimes when spending is encouraged > > too much. > > Well, only *money* loses value, so there's not necessarily any real effect on > personal wealth. One's wealth comes from material and/or service accrual, > and *cash flow*, instead of interest. > Which screws anyone who provides services, especially seasonal services. IT workers being noteworthy, as well as migrant crop workers. In essence, the current reserve banks in North America try to achieve what you're suggesting by low interest rates which encourage spending and borrowing over saving. Of course, they have to balance spending/saving carefully, less we get inflationary problems. > You'd be better off reading about it from someone who can explain it in more > detail, in the long run. That was really just a one-liner in a much bigger > argument, an example of an alternative mainly. > Any suggestions? Economics is a hobby of mine :) Regards, -- Marcus Brubaker [1] As opposed to most of the inflation that happened in North America during the late 70's which was a result of the oil crisis. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jmm-TU2q2He6PgRlD5gtYiU6kEEOCMrvLtNR at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 10 23:17:54 2003 From: jmm-TU2q2He6PgRlD5gtYiU6kEEOCMrvLtNR at public.gmane.org (John Macdonald) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 18:17:54 -0500 Subject: hard drive wanted In-Reply-To: <3FD77205.2030203-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <3FD77205.2030203@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20031210181754.A1073@algate.perlwolf.com> On Wed, Dec 10, 2003 at 02:20:37PM -0500, Byron Sonne wrote: > I have a bunch in ~2GB and ~4GB, but SCSI only I'm afraid. However, > having gone through my stash and reorganized I found I have more SCSI > controllers than I thought. I'd have no problem throwing one in but > you're probably looking at only 10MB/s xfer rate. 2940AU I believe. > > If anyone else out there needs a drive the offer's open for that too, > but minus a controller since I need to hang on to the rest. I could make use of one of tose drives. My old Mac 7200 has a tiny and a small drive, they could both fit onto a 2GB drive and have some room for growth. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 10 22:20:14 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 17:20:14 -0500 Subject: In the Beginning was the Command Line In-Reply-To: <20031210185140.GB27521-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <1071066273.4922.19.camel@theconstruct.mineallmeyn.net> <20031210102436.7381badf.joehill@sympatico.ca> <20031210185140.GB27521@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20031210172014.42bebbb7.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 13:51:40 -0500 lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) wrote: > I wonder what some south american countries would think of your idea. I > don't think their devaluation of money has helped their economy at all. > > Incentive to spend rather than horde may be an OK idea, but money that > looses value isn't necesarily such a good thing, although I guess at the > moment basic interest rate isn't doing much better than inflation. Of > course encouraging people to spend money they don't have is a really bad > idea and I think that too happens sometimes when spending is encouraged > too much. Did some quick Googling and here's a somewhat better explanation of the concept: http://www.transaction.net/money/gc/gc01.html#intro -- JoeHill ++ ICQ # 280779813 Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "One of the most dangerous errors of our time is the belief that human beings are uniquely violent animals, barely restrained from committing atrocities on each other by the constraints of ethics, religion, and the state."-- Eric S. Raymond -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 10 22:21:46 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 17:21:46 -0500 Subject: In the Beginning was the Command Line In-Reply-To: <1071093805.12446.62.camel-eTg7c9BlEq95hrpxxnI5yFifK/mc/01a@public.gmane.org> References: <1071066273.4922.19.camel@theconstruct.mineallmeyn.net> <20031210102436.7381badf.joehill@sympatico.ca> <20031210185140.GB27521@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20031210162908.7e1840c8.joehill@sympatico.ca> <1071093805.12446.62.camel@rincewind.discworld> Message-ID: <20031210172146.11735b38.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 17:03:25 -0500 Marcus Brubaker wrote: > The same could be said of every major system. Communism would work > beautifully...if only everyone participated. The reality is that any > successful system of capital must be able to handle non-participants. > In a sense, thats the beauty of capitalism, there is no way to not > participate short of not having capital. Well, this is the problem. As soon as one criticises Capitalism, the immediate response is: "Well Communism sucks even more!" I nowhere advocated, communism, of course. -- JoeHill ++ ICQ # 280779813 Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "Behind every great fortune is a crime." -- Balzac -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From marcus.brubaker-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 10 22:44:12 2003 From: marcus.brubaker-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Marcus Brubaker) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 17:44:12 -0500 Subject: In the Beginning was the Command Line In-Reply-To: <20031210172146.11735b38.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <1071066273.4922.19.camel@theconstruct.mineallmeyn.net> <20031210102436.7381badf.joehill@sympatico.ca> <20031210185140.GB27521@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20031210162908.7e1840c8.joehill@sympatico.ca> <1071093805.12446.62.camel@rincewind.discworld> <20031210172146.11735b38.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <1071096251.12446.73.camel@rincewind.discworld> On Wed, 2003-12-10 at 17:21, JoeHill wrote: > On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 17:03:25 -0500 > Marcus Brubaker wrote: > > > The same could be said of every major system. Communism would work > > beautifully...if only everyone participated. The reality is that any > > successful system of capital must be able to handle non-participants. > > In a sense, thats the beauty of capitalism, there is no way to not > > participate short of not having capital. > > Well, this is the problem. As soon as one criticises Capitalism, the immediate > response is: "Well Communism sucks even more!" I nowhere advocated, communism, > of course. I wasn't saying you advocated communism, nor that communism sucked. Communism is beautiful in theory. I was just pointing out that most every imaginable system of capital would work perfectly if only everyone participated and that capitalism has the advantage that non-participants (non-capital holders in this case) don't cause the system to fail for participants. This is not to say that one is better than the other. Regards, -- Marcus Brubaker -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From taavi-LbuTpDkqzNzXI80/IeQp7B2eb7JE58TQ at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 10 23:05:20 2003 From: taavi-LbuTpDkqzNzXI80/IeQp7B2eb7JE58TQ at public.gmane.org (Taavi Burns) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 18:05:20 -0500 Subject: In the Beginning was the Command Line In-Reply-To: <1071093805.12446.62.camel-eTg7c9BlEq95hrpxxnI5yFifK/mc/01a@public.gmane.org> References: <1071066273.4922.19.camel@theconstruct.mineallmeyn.net> <20031210102436.7381badf.joehill@sympatico.ca> <20031210185140.GB27521@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20031210162908.7e1840c8.joehill@sympatico.ca> <1071093805.12446.62.camel@rincewind.discworld> Message-ID: <20031210230520.GZ2033@hatefulsheep> On Wed, Dec 10, 2003 at 05:03:25PM -0500, Marcus Brubaker wrote: > in order to encourage internal industries. The key is that money is a > commodity and its value is dictated by supply and demand just like > everything else. The benefit of using a currency over hard goods is > precisely that it can be borrowed without it actually existing. You > can't borrow a loaf of bread that doesn't exist, but you can borrow > money which doesn't really exist. This allows investment and economic > growth that wouldn't otherwise be possible. Ah, but money doesn't really exist either. It only has value because everyone agrees that it has value, usually as a direct result of a government backing it with actual resources, or a reputable promise of having resources. -- taa /*eof*/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jzygmont-tEQKYFGiemxAYG7eUwYNkWD2FQJk+8+b at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 10 23:06:23 2003 From: jzygmont-tEQKYFGiemxAYG7eUwYNkWD2FQJk+8+b at public.gmane.org (Justin Zygmont) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 18:06:23 -0500 (EST) Subject: In the Beginning was the Command Line In-Reply-To: <20031210172146.11735b38.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <20031210172146.11735b38.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: > Well, this is the problem. As soon as one criticises Capitalism, the immediate > response is: "Well Communism sucks even more!" I nowhere advocated, communism, > of course. lets not get into that kind of discussion, please. There's always better things to talk about. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From marcus.brubaker-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 10 23:15:06 2003 From: marcus.brubaker-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Marcus Brubaker) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 18:15:06 -0500 Subject: In the Beginning was the Command Line In-Reply-To: <20031210230520.GZ2033-9xiANKxwco6iqb11nhpoTg@public.gmane.org> References: <1071066273.4922.19.camel@theconstruct.mineallmeyn.net> <20031210102436.7381badf.joehill@sympatico.ca> <20031210185140.GB27521@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20031210162908.7e1840c8.joehill@sympatico.ca> <1071093805.12446.62.camel@rincewind.discworld> <20031210230520.GZ2033@hatefulsheep> Message-ID: <1071098106.12446.79.camel@rincewind.discworld> On Wed, 2003-12-10 at 18:05, Taavi Burns wrote: > On Wed, Dec 10, 2003 at 05:03:25PM -0500, Marcus Brubaker wrote: > > in order to encourage internal industries. The key is that money is a > > commodity and its value is dictated by supply and demand just like > > everything else. The benefit of using a currency over hard goods is > > precisely that it can be borrowed without it actually existing. You > > can't borrow a loaf of bread that doesn't exist, but you can borrow > > money which doesn't really exist. This allows investment and economic > > growth that wouldn't otherwise be possible. > > Ah, but money doesn't really exist either. It only has value because > everyone agrees that it has value, usually as a direct result of a government > backing it with actual resources, or a reputable promise of having > resources. Absolutely...which is why lending works, as I was saying above. Of course, most every government in the world has long since stopped backing their currency with any resource in particular. I think the US went off the gold standard in the late 1800s, early 1900s, although I could be wrong on that. Interesting side note: I once heard it said that the author of the Wizard of Oz was strongly in favor of having a resource backed currency. So much so, in fact, that he wrote it into the story, "Follow the yellow brick road..." Of course, that could be completely false... -- Marcus Brubaker -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 10 23:24:28 2003 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 18:24:28 -0500 Subject: In the Beginning was the Command Line In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3FD7AB2C.5010303@rogers.com> Justin Zygmont wrote: >>Well, this is the problem. As soon as one criticises Capitalism, the immediate >>response is: "Well Communism sucks even more!" I nowhere advocated, communism, >>of course. > > > lets not get into that kind of discussion, please. There's always better > things to talk about. Well, we can always talk about that great delusion called "religion". ;-) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 10 23:28:40 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 18:28:40 -0500 Subject: In the Beginning was the Command Line In-Reply-To: <1071096251.12446.73.camel-eTg7c9BlEq95hrpxxnI5yFifK/mc/01a@public.gmane.org> References: <1071066273.4922.19.camel@theconstruct.mineallmeyn.net> <20031210102436.7381badf.joehill@sympatico.ca> <20031210185140.GB27521@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20031210162908.7e1840c8.joehill@sympatico.ca> <1071093805.12446.62.camel@rincewind.discworld> <20031210172146.11735b38.joehill@sympatico.ca> <1071096251.12446.73.camel@rincewind.discworld> Message-ID: <20031210182840.397b2932.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 17:44:12 -0500 Marcus Brubaker wrote: > that capitalism has the advantage that non-participants > (non-capital holders in this case) don't cause the system to fail for > participants. No, the "non-participants" just starve...Capitalism works *real* well for about, oh, say 3% of the world's population, the rest barely eke out a living on the margins. -- JoeHill ++ ICQ # 280779813 Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "Reality is what you can get away with." -- Robert Anton Wilson -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 11 00:58:31 2003 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 19:58:31 -0500 Subject: mangled SMTP headers with spamassassin / qmail / debian stable (long) In-Reply-To: <57984.66.241.132.132.1071091603.squirrel-H2AwB+dltV/+AlalS6MPSg@public.gmane.org> References: <57984.66.241.132.132.1071091603.squirrel@lisa.cap.lan> Message-ID: <20031211005831.GD27521@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Dec 10, 2003 at 04:26:43PM -0500, Michael Coburn wrote: > Hi, after re-reading my email I might have left out one piece. The mail > coming into the relay machine is pushed to qmail via a shell script called > /var/qmail/bin/qmail-queue:---- > #!/bin/sh > /usr/bin/spamc | /var/qmail/bin/qmail-queue.orig > ---- > I moved the original binary file qmail-queue to qmail-queue.orig . > > When I remove the shell script and rename the .orig file back to > qmail-queue, the system relays i.e. all SMTP header info is correct. Any > ideas?-- Your script changes are broken? What is the difference between the original and the new scripts? Is it OK to ask: Why qmail when exim is available? And you could at least use a debian compliant qmail :) Lennart Sorensen (Happy exim + mailscanner + spamassassin + Maildir user) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jason-gaRZxGPHtpBxZtjKW1aY+1aTQe2KTcn/ at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 11 00:33:26 2003 From: jason-gaRZxGPHtpBxZtjKW1aY+1aTQe2KTcn/ at public.gmane.org (Jason Shein) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 19:33:26 -0500 Subject: hard drive wanted In-Reply-To: <20031210181754.A1073-TU2q2He6PgRlD5gtYiU6kEEOCMrvLtNR@public.gmane.org> References: <3FD77205.2030203@rogers.com> <20031210181754.A1073@algate.perlwolf.com> Message-ID: <3FD7BB56.6000208@pcsecurityonline.com> John Macdonald wrote: > On Wed, Dec 10, 2003 at 02:20:37PM -0500, Byron Sonne wrote: > >>I have a bunch in ~2GB and ~4GB, but SCSI only I'm afraid. However, >>having gone through my stash and reorganized I found I have more SCSI >>controllers than I thought. I'd have no problem throwing one in but >>you're probably looking at only 10MB/s xfer rate. 2940AU I believe. >> >>If anyone else out there needs a drive the offer's open for that too, >>but minus a controller since I need to hang on to the rest. > > > I could make use of one of tose drives. My old Mac 7200 > has a tiny and a small drive, they could both fit onto > a 2GB drive and have some room for growth. > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > while we are on topic I have a few SCSI hdd's and controllers I do not need. If they are of any use to someone I would be glad to part with them. I live in Georgetown so I may be out of the way for most of you. If anyone is interested mail me off list. HDD'S Seagate Legacy L420 - 424MB IBM DPES-31080 - 1080MB Conner CP30540 - 540MB IBM WDS-3200 - 200MB Legacy D0201050 - 1.0 GB Quantum 540S FB54S011 - 500MB Apple Tape Archive Corporation 2525S Controllers Adaptec AHA-2842A Adaptec AHA-1740A Adaptec AHA-1742A -- " Eventually people tire of repairing broken Windows, And decide to replace them with something stronger" (o_ //\ Linux - The Choice Of A GNU Generation V_/_ Jason Shein Linux Registered User #281100 jason-gaRZxGPHtpBxZtjKW1aY+1aTQe2KTcn/@public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From drew-vnkfHpbZfesgsBAKwltoeQ at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 11 01:24:16 2003 From: drew-vnkfHpbZfesgsBAKwltoeQ at public.gmane.org (Andrew G. Hammond) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 20:24:16 -0500 Subject: A couple of questions In-Reply-To: <003901c3bf39$b1bcfe20$6401a8c0-UxDKcUsq0RM@public.gmane.org> References: <003901c3bf39$b1bcfe20$6401a8c0@main> Message-ID: <3FD7C740.4030504@xyzzy.dhs.org> Assuming the guy actually cares about getting his email, it would be a Bad Idea to run an email server off a dynamic IP. There are plenty of other ISPs which offer statis IPs, switch him to one of those. Then you can start thinking about putting in a server. Drew Sidney Shapiro wrote: > Hi all, > > > > I have a client thinking of setting up a mail server in his office, as > well as a backup system. I set up something similar to this for > another client using RH, and a lot of help. His hosting is currently > with Blue Genesis, and his in office internet connection is through > Sympatico. Since he does not have a static IP, would it be difficult > to set up a mail server for him? I figure if I change the zone file > for mail to a dynamic DNS program on the server, he will be able to > use pop/smtp connects through the server. How would that work since > the domain and the mail are going to different places? Also, as far as > backup goes, can I do an rsync to a whole bunch of Windows machines > (XP, NT, 2000, 98, 95, ME) and then do comparative backups at intervals? > > > > Any help is really appreciated, > > > > Sid > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 11 01:25:09 2003 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 20:25:09 -0500 Subject: hard drive wanted In-Reply-To: <3FD7BB56.6000208-gaRZxGPHtpBxZtjKW1aY+1aTQe2KTcn/@public.gmane.org> References: <3FD77205.2030203@rogers.com> <20031210181754.A1073@algate.perlwolf.com> <3FD7BB56.6000208@pcsecurityonline.com> Message-ID: <3FD7C775.9050205@rogers.com> Jason Shein wrote: > John Macdonald wrote: > >> On Wed, Dec 10, 2003 at 02:20:37PM -0500, Byron Sonne wrote: >> >>> I have a bunch in ~2GB and ~4GB, but SCSI only I'm afraid. However, >>> having gone through my stash and reorganized I found I have more SCSI >>> controllers than I thought. I'd have no problem throwing one in but >>> you're probably looking at only 10MB/s xfer rate. 2940AU I believe. >>> >>> If anyone else out there needs a drive the offer's open for that too, >>> but minus a controller since I need to hang on to the rest. >> >> >> >> I could make use of one of tose drives. My old Mac 7200 >> has a tiny and a small drive, they could both fit onto >> a 2GB drive and have some room for growth. >> -- >> The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org >> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml >> > while we are on topic I have a few SCSI hdd's and controllers I do not > need. If they are of any use to someone I would be glad to part with > them. I live in Georgetown so I may be out of the way for most of you. And I gave away a Micro Channel SCSI controller! ;-) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From drew-vnkfHpbZfesgsBAKwltoeQ at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 11 01:32:07 2003 From: drew-vnkfHpbZfesgsBAKwltoeQ at public.gmane.org (Andrew G. Hammond) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 20:32:07 -0500 Subject: Looking for 270 or 540MB IDE drives In-Reply-To: <000601c3be4f$18124450$0301a8c0-vAnPq90cUBg@public.gmane.org> References: <000601c3be4f$18124450$0301a8c0@amazon> Message-ID: <3FD7C917.3060503@xyzzy.dhs.org> If it's going to be a router then you'd be wise to get new drives. It's a pain replacing drives even if you are using RAID. Drew Teddy Mills wrote: >I need a few 270 or 540MB IDEs for router projects. >Please email me at teddymills-VFlxZYho3OA at public.gmane.org, if you are downtown Toronto and have >access to a few of these. (2 to N drives) >or know of a place where I can get some of these. Most people would be >throwing these things away. > >--------------------------------------------------------------- >teddy mills >http://www.vger.ca >VGER directives...To collect...all that is collectable. To sell...all that >is saleable.To merchandise...all that is merchandisable. > >Family Guys, Quagmire >"allllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll right" > >-- >The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org >TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From drew-vnkfHpbZfesgsBAKwltoeQ at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 11 01:35:42 2003 From: drew-vnkfHpbZfesgsBAKwltoeQ at public.gmane.org (Andrew G. Hammond) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 20:35:42 -0500 Subject: quiet PC In-Reply-To: <20031209165604.GB31759-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <3FD51233.6E2F5C25@onlink.net> <3FD53FEB.40808@alteeve.com> <200312090819.15114.lada@agawa.com> <20031209165604.GB31759@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <3FD7C9EE.8080609@xyzzy.dhs.org> Hey man, be sure and discharge the caps before cracking the PSU open. I'd hate to see the forum loose on of it's more insightful posters. Drew Lennart Sorensen wrote: >On Tue, Dec 09, 2003 at 08:19:14AM -0500, Ladislav Svatos wrote: > > >>The most noisiest fan on my computer is the CPU fan. What do you recommend for >>a CPU fan? >> >> > >A brand name ball bearing fan (sleeve bearings don't last long and start >vibrating). I discovered the cause of my Dad's noisy machine is >actually the power supply fan (after replacing a few of the others). >Annoyingly it is soldered in so I guess I will have to cut and splice >the wires for a new fan in there. > >bigfoot computers has a nice selection of fans and such btw. > >Lennart Sorensen >-- >The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org >TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From legrady-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 11 01:36:25 2003 From: legrady-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Tom Legrady) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 20:36:25 -0500 Subject: In the Beginning was the Command Line In-Reply-To: <1071098106.12446.79.camel-eTg7c9BlEq95hrpxxnI5yFifK/mc/01a@public.gmane.org> References: <1071066273.4922.19.camel@theconstruct.mineallmeyn.net> <20031210102436.7381badf.joehill@sympatico.ca> <20031210185140.GB27521@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20031210162908.7e1840c8.joehill@sympatico.ca> <1071093805.12446.62.camel@rincewind.discworld> <20031210230520.GZ2033@hatefulsheep> <1071098106.12446.79.camel@rincewind.discworld> Message-ID: <3FD7CA19.2000704@rogers.com> Marcus Brubaker wrote: >Of >course, most every government in the world has long since stopped >backing their currency with any resource in particular. I think the US >went off the gold standard in the late 1800s, early 1900s, although I >could be wrong on that. > > It was Franklin D Roosevelt, 1933 Tom -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From teddymills-VFlxZYho3OA at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 11 01:49:48 2003 From: teddymills-VFlxZYho3OA at public.gmane.org (Teddy Mills) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 20:49:48 -0500 Subject: sco.com right off the map Message-ID: <004f01c3bf89$109c4f50$0301a8c0@amazon> that old law about "an eye for an eye" leaves everybody blind. The time is always right to do the right thing .~ Martin Luther King Jr. ~ -------------------------------------------------------------- teddy mills http://www.vger.ca VGER directives...To collect...all that is collectable. To sell...all that is saleable.To merchandise...all that is merchandisable. Family Guys, Quagmire "allllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll right" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jason-gaRZxGPHtpBxZtjKW1aY+1aTQe2KTcn/ at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 11 02:11:58 2003 From: jason-gaRZxGPHtpBxZtjKW1aY+1aTQe2KTcn/ at public.gmane.org (Jason Shein) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 21:11:58 -0500 Subject: Freevo Message-ID: <3FD7D26E.7080509@pcsecurityonline.com> Anyone here tried Freevo? http://freevo.sourceforge.net Judging by the screenshots it's someone local working on it http://freevo.sourceforge.net/screenshots_blue_round2.html#freevo_ss2 Notice the local content ;) Any experiences good/bad before I jump into my next project here? -- " Eventually people tire of repairing broken Windows, And decide to replace them with something stronger" (o_ //\ Linux - The Choice Of A GNU Generation V_/_ Jason Shein Linux Registered User #281100 jason-gaRZxGPHtpBxZtjKW1aY+1aTQe2KTcn/@public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jzygmont-tEQKYFGiemxAYG7eUwYNkWD2FQJk+8+b at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 11 02:52:00 2003 From: jzygmont-tEQKYFGiemxAYG7eUwYNkWD2FQJk+8+b at public.gmane.org (Justin Zygmont) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 21:52:00 -0500 (EST) Subject: hard drive wanted In-Reply-To: <3FD7BB56.6000208-gaRZxGPHtpBxZtjKW1aY+1aTQe2KTcn/@public.gmane.org> References: <3FD7BB56.6000208@pcsecurityonline.com> Message-ID: doesn't anyone have IDE? :) On Wed, 10 Dec 2003, Jason Shein wrote: > John Macdonald wrote: > > On Wed, Dec 10, 2003 at 02:20:37PM -0500, Byron Sonne wrote: > > > >>I have a bunch in ~2GB and ~4GB, but SCSI only I'm afraid. However, > >>having gone through my stash and reorganized I found I have more SCSI > >>controllers than I thought. I'd have no problem throwing one in but > >>you're probably looking at only 10MB/s xfer rate. 2940AU I believe. > >> > >>If anyone else out there needs a drive the offer's open for that too, > >>but minus a controller since I need to hang on to the rest. > > > > > > I could make use of one of tose drives. My old Mac 7200 > > has a tiny and a small drive, they could both fit onto > > a 2GB drive and have some room for growth. > > -- > > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > > > while we are on topic I have a few SCSI hdd's and controllers I do not > need. If they are of any use to someone I would be glad to part with > them. I live in Georgetown so I may be out of the way for most of you. > > If anyone is interested mail me off list. > > HDD'S > > Seagate Legacy L420 - 424MB > IBM DPES-31080 - 1080MB > Conner CP30540 - 540MB > IBM WDS-3200 - 200MB > Legacy D0201050 - 1.0 GB > Quantum 540S FB54S011 - 500MB Apple > > Tape > > Archive Corporation 2525S > > Controllers > > Adaptec AHA-2842A > Adaptec AHA-1740A > Adaptec AHA-1742A > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From michael-3aH0qR8MVRD3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 11 02:56:55 2003 From: michael-3aH0qR8MVRD3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Michael Coburn) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 21:56:55 -0500 (EST) Subject: mangled SMTP headers with spamassassin / qmail / debian stable (long) In-Reply-To: <20031211005831.GD27521-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20031211005831.GD27521@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <1277.65.50.47.132.1071111415.squirrel@lisa.cap.lan> The original qmail-queue file (as compiled by qmail-src) is an ELF binary, was never a script. I replaced it with a cheap hack of a script to squeeze spamassassin into the mix, then pass it along the Dr Bernstein way of doing SMTP. Why qmail? Because I didn't want to run sendmail while on Red Hat, so I picked the #2 MTA on the market. And other than the cheap qmail-queue hack, it is compliant:apt-get install ucspi-tcp apt-get install qmail-src I'll take a look at exim. Thanks for the tip :) -- michael Lennart Sorensen said: > On Wed, Dec 10, 2003 at 04:26:43PM -0500, Michael Coburn wrote: >> Hi, after re-reading my email I might have left out one piece. The > mail >> coming into the relay machine is pushed to qmail via a shell script > called >> /var/qmail/bin/qmail-queue:---- >> #!/bin/sh >> /usr/bin/spamc | /var/qmail/bin/qmail-queue.orig >> ---- >> I moved the original binary file qmail-queue to qmail-queue.orig . >> >> When I remove the shell script and rename the .orig file back to >> qmail-queue, the system relays i.e. all SMTP header info is correct. > Any >> ideas?-- > > Your script changes are broken? > > What is the difference between the original and the new scripts? > > Is it OK to ask: Why qmail when exim is available? And you could at > least use a debian compliant qmail :) > > Lennart Sorensen > (Happy exim + mailscanner + spamassassin + Maildir user) > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From taavi-LbuTpDkqzNzXI80/IeQp7B2eb7JE58TQ at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 11 03:04:03 2003 From: taavi-LbuTpDkqzNzXI80/IeQp7B2eb7JE58TQ at public.gmane.org (Taavi Burns) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 22:04:03 -0500 Subject: hard drive wanted In-Reply-To: References: <3FD7BB56.6000208@pcsecurityonline.com> Message-ID: <20031211030403.GB2033@hatefulsheep> On Wed, Dec 10, 2003 at 09:52:00PM -0500, Justin Zygmont wrote: > doesn't anyone have IDE? :) Why would anyone WANT IDE? People don't want IDE, they want cheap hard disks. :/ -- taa /*eof*/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 11 03:13:34 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 22:13:34 -0500 Subject: Freevo In-Reply-To: <3FD7D26E.7080509-gaRZxGPHtpBxZtjKW1aY+1aTQe2KTcn/@public.gmane.org> References: <3FD7D26E.7080509@pcsecurityonline.com> Message-ID: <20031210221334.4b063bcc.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 21:11:58 -0500 Jason Shein wrote: > Anyone here tried Freevo? > http://freevo.sourceforge.net > > Judging by the screenshots it's someone local working on it > http://freevo.sourceforge.net/screenshots_blue_round2.html#freevo_ss2 > Notice the local content ;) > > Any experiences good/bad before I jump into my next project here? I've tried Freevo, their installer works great, and it plays movies and such, but to this day I've never been able to get any output to go to the TV. I've tried nvtv, yanc, etc., nothing works. I've got a GF4Ti with TV Out, and the Nvidia drivers are supposed to allow this, but no go. -- JoeHill ++ ICQ # 280779813 Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "He who controls others may be powerful, but he who has mastered himself is mightier still."-- Lao Tsu -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 11 03:33:35 2003 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 22:33:35 -0500 Subject: mangled SMTP headers with spamassassin / qmail / debian stable (long) In-Reply-To: <1277.65.50.47.132.1071111415.squirrel-H2AwB+dltV/+AlalS6MPSg@public.gmane.org> References: <20031211005831.GD27521@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <1277.65.50.47.132.1071111415.squirrel@lisa.cap.lan> Message-ID: <20031211033335.GE27521@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Dec 10, 2003 at 09:56:55PM -0500, Michael Coburn wrote: > The original qmail-queue file (as compiled by qmail-src) is an ELF binary, > was never a script. I replaced it with a cheap hack of a script to > squeeze spamassassin into the mix, then pass it along the Dr Bernstein way > of doing SMTP. > Why qmail? Because I didn't want to run sendmail while on Red Hat, so I > picked the #2 MTA on the market. And other than the cheap qmail-queue > hack, it is compliant:apt-get install ucspi-tcp > apt-get install qmail-src Then what is it doing in /var/qmail/bin? That doesn't look like debian policy compliant. > I'll take a look at exim. Thanks for the tip :) It's simple to configure, and Debian's default mailer. The docs can be a pain at times though. Lennart Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jzygmont-tEQKYFGiemxAYG7eUwYNkWD2FQJk+8+b at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 11 04:01:56 2003 From: jzygmont-tEQKYFGiemxAYG7eUwYNkWD2FQJk+8+b at public.gmane.org (Justin Zygmont) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 23:01:56 -0500 (EST) Subject: hard drive wanted In-Reply-To: <20031211030403.GB2033-9xiANKxwco6iqb11nhpoTg@public.gmane.org> References: <20031211030403.GB2033@hatefulsheep> Message-ID: hehe, you must be one of those SCSI guys. One way I can play with new versions of linux, is to use removable drive trays. This way I don't need a second PC, I can just switch the drive, and i've got IDE. On Wed, 10 Dec 2003, Taavi Burns wrote: > On Wed, Dec 10, 2003 at 09:52:00PM -0500, Justin Zygmont wrote: > > doesn't anyone have IDE? :) > > Why would anyone WANT IDE? > > People don't want IDE, they want cheap hard disks. :/ > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 11 04:38:25 2003 From: cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org (cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 23:38:25 -0500 Subject: YYZTechA new computer newspaper for Toronto? In-Reply-To: Message from "Chris F.A. Johnson" of "Wed, 10 Dec 2003 00:56:53 EST." References: <017d01c3bebc$8a46ca10$ba0ce540@D2XGQ811> Message-ID: <20031211043826.50FDC402B@cbbrowne.com> > Dislike: > > Too many advertisements. (Actually, any, but that's not realistic.) As William Park observed, this is the way these "rags" make money, so that their _real_ purpose is to have ads, and a bit of writing, as filler, to both fill space not sold, as well as to provide an extra reason for readers to pick it up and browse through. If you look carefully at most of the "computer monthlies," you will also notice that the 'articles' are thinly veiled ads to encourage people to buy the newest interesting products. If the desire is to recreate something akin to TCJ (The Computer Journal) , a mostly-CP/M journal, MicroCornucopia (a really neat journal), or The Perl Journal, keep in mind, first, that these are all defunct. Remember also that they were all quite expensive because they had minimal advertising. I am unconvinced that this can "work," commercially, now, because it is so much easier to do Internet-based publishing that does not need to have geographic ties. -- wm(X,Y):-write(X),write('@'),write(Y). wm('cbbrowne','cbbrowne.com'). http://cbbrowne.com/info/lsf.html Rules of the Evil Overlord #187. "I will not hold lavish banquets in the middle of a famine. The good PR among the guests doesn't make up for the bad PR among the masses." -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From alan-QVObF66B6qeOg/Yh5kgvkFaTQe2KTcn/ at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 11 04:45:14 2003 From: alan-QVObF66B6qeOg/Yh5kgvkFaTQe2KTcn/ at public.gmane.org (Alan Cohen) Date: 10 Dec 2003 23:45:14 -0500 Subject: Exim problem Message-ID: <1071117914.1310.38.camel@tsx2> Hello all I'm having a heck of a problem. My system supposedly does not allow unauthorized relaying, yet Exim V4 is apparently sending out hundreds and hundreds of messages (to persons-YDxpq3io04c at public.gmane.org). - It would seem they are "from" apache-WYle8UNbkfMGClDRh0WFwpAGcjtitEbrAL8bYrjMMd8 at public.gmane.org - Their source is P=local (not smtp) Somehow, these messages are originating from my system. (not relayed from somewhere else) - Local user p911-alan is the first recipient. His message shows that there is one (and only one) additional "To" who is a non-existent person-PyrWk/hl1m8sac7YOPP9X1aTQe2KTcn/@public.gmane.org - /var/log/exim/main.log shows a heck of a lot of other people are being sent that same message Does anyone have any suggestions? I'd sure like to know how this guy is doing it... exigrep extract re: 2003-12-10 22:05:56 1AUH9I-0000Eb-Qr <= apache-WYle8UNbkfMGClDRh0WFwpAGcjtitEbrAL8bYrjMMd8 at public.gmane.org U=apache P=local S=3387 T="Adobe Photoshop" lowest numbered MX record points to local host: www.perimeter911.com == cristi898-PyrWk/hl1m8sac7YOPP9X1aTQe2KTcn/@public.gmane.org R=lookuphost defer (-1): lowest numbered MX record points to local host => p911-alan R=local_director T=maildir_delivery Remote host mailin-02.mx.aol.com [205.188.159.57] closed connection in response to end of data => mawwwwwwww-YDxpq3io04c at public.gmane.org R=lookuphost T=remote_smtp H=mailin-02.mx.aol.com [205.188.159.57] -> gwbw2-YDxpq3io04c at public.gmane.org R=lookuphost T=remote_smtp H=mailin-02.mx.aol.com [205.188.159.57] -> ..and hundreds of more recipient-5uyhOP+zmq2tXF2fZOsJYA at public.gmane.org -- -------------------------------------- Please do not respond in HTML Alan Cohen alan-QVObF66B6qeOg/Yh5kgvkFaTQe2KTcn/@public.gmane.org voice: 416-783-9826 fax: 240-269-7457 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From teddymills-VFlxZYho3OA at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 11 05:06:14 2003 From: teddymills-VFlxZYho3OA at public.gmane.org (Teddy Mills) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 00:06:14 -0500 Subject: Exim problem References: <1071117914.1310.38.camel@tsx2> Message-ID: <00a901c3bfa4$816a6080$0301a8c0@amazon> I just went through a few weeks of security and server hell. I would save you some pain. A. Get a seperate firewall box if you do not currently have one. I would recommend running your servers behind the firewall with a NAT address. (ie. no bastion servers) (opinions will vary here) I chose the SmoothWall 2.0. I one happy admin now with my network, server setup. (ask me how happy :) B. use tcpdump or lsof -i other other network tools to see what remote connections are there during these spammings. C. blocking out just that one spammer network block or IP is useless. since it doesnt fix the systemic problem with security. D. Review your system top down for security and reset all passwords in the system. You can maybe skip this step, but thats your call. E. Others in this list more qualified than I may save you (and I) some future steps or caveats. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alan Cohen" To: Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2003 11:45 PM Subject: [TLUG]: Exim problem > Hello all > > I'm having a heck of a problem. My system supposedly does not allow > unauthorized relaying, yet Exim V4 is apparently sending out hundreds > and hundreds of messages (to persons-YDxpq3io04c at public.gmane.org). > > - It would seem they are "from" apache-WYle8UNbkfMGClDRh0WFwpAGcjtitEbrAL8bYrjMMd8 at public.gmane.org > - Their source is P=local (not smtp) Somehow, these messages are > originating from my system. (not relayed from somewhere else) > > - Local user p911-alan is the first recipient. His message shows that > there is one (and only one) additional "To" who is a non-existent > person-PyrWk/hl1m8sac7YOPP9X1aTQe2KTcn/@public.gmane.org > - /var/log/exim/main.log shows a heck of a lot of other people are being > sent that same message > > Does anyone have any suggestions? > I'd sure like to know how this guy is doing it... > > > exigrep extract re: 2003-12-10 22:05:56 1AUH9I-0000Eb-Qr > > <= apache-WYle8UNbkfMGClDRh0WFwpAGcjtitEbrAL8bYrjMMd8 at public.gmane.org U=apache P=local S=3387 T="Adobe Photoshop" > > lowest numbered MX record points to local host: www.perimeter911.com > > == cristi898-PyrWk/hl1m8sac7YOPP9X1aTQe2KTcn/@public.gmane.org R=lookuphost defer (-1): > lowest numbered MX record points to local host > > => p911-alan R=local_director T=maildir_delivery > > Remote host mailin-02.mx.aol.com [205.188.159.57] closed connection in > response to end of data > > => mawwwwwwww-YDxpq3io04c at public.gmane.org R=lookuphost T=remote_smtp H=mailin-02.mx.aol.com [205.188.159.57] > -> gwbw2-YDxpq3io04c at public.gmane.org R=lookuphost T=remote_smtp H=mailin-02.mx.aol.com [205.188.159.57] > -> ..and hundreds of more recipient-5uyhOP+zmq2tXF2fZOsJYA at public.gmane.org > > > -- > -------------------------------------- Please do not respond in HTML > Alan Cohen alan-QVObF66B6qeOg/Yh5kgvkFaTQe2KTcn/@public.gmane.org > voice: 416-783-9826 > fax: 240-269-7457 > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 11 05:10:36 2003 From: cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org (cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 00:10:36 -0500 Subject: Free market, not Capitalism (Re: In the Beginning was the Command Line) In-Reply-To: Message from S P Arif Sahari Wibowo of "Wed, 10 Dec 2003 12:07:09 EST." References: <1071066273.4922.19.camel@theconstruct.mineallmeyn.net> <20031210102436.7381badf.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <20031211051037.27953402B@cbbrowne.com> > On Wed, 10 Dec 2003, JoeHill wrote: > >The problem really isn't that Capitalism is a totally free market, as you > >seem to be hinting at, it's that it is in fact *not* a free market. It > >concentrates power around those who *have* capital, and therefore works > >against the free flow of trade, and also against innovation. > > 100% agree. > > IMHO, ideally economy should based on effort, not capital. This will > work well with free market. In fact, I think a economy based on effort > will be an utopia. Unfortunately, effort is hard to measure. > > It is true that there is small correlation between effort and gaining > capital. That's why controlled capitalism can work, albeit just Ok. The _grand_ problem around the world that keeps coming back, over and over, is that of "land reform." Communism shows off two notable approaches; when land is held by the state, it is either _essentially_ owned by the top politicians, or, instead, by _nobody_. In the former case, we observe _spectacular_ corruption; in the latter, we observe the "tragedy of the commons" problem, where the land is likely to essentially get "raped" because it is in everyone's interests to get as much personal benefit out of it as possible. The recent situation in Zimbabwe showed off that it is really problematic to try to implement reforms. It seems reasonable that there ought to be _some_ way for the common people of that country to somehow participate in owning parts of their country. But seizing capital from one group and trying to redistribute it tends to turn out badly. (And attracts politicians with sticky fingers that will redistribute to their cronies.) The situation since Perestroika, in the former USSR, was similarly troublesome. What would have been RIGHT would have been to somehow try to divide up the land and the state-owned businesses, and for each citizen to get a share in that. What happened instead was that cronies of the former rulers got control of it all, arguably worsening things. Capitalism occasionally gets it somewhat right. I saw a _fascinating_ case when working at Sabre, a former subsidiary of AMR (American Airlines). AMR owned 80% of Sabre, and decided to spin it all off. They did a _fascinating_ thing, corresponding to what I just suggested about the USSR. They issued shares amounting to that 80%, and distributed it evenly to all AMR shareholders. "For free." In effect, a couple billion dollars worth of stock suddenly appeared on the market, without a single penny of cash changing hands. I had expected some attempt at 'deal-making' that would look bizarre. For them to "give the company away" was quite surprising, but, at close look, very much the right answer. I think that is the sort of thing that should have happened in the ex-USSR; that each citizen get 10 shares in each of the state-run firms, to do with as they wish, and perhaps something analagous concerning land holdings. Since something like that did not happen, the country was essentially given to the "mafia" sorts that own and run the companies. One of the more interesting alternative points of view on the Vietnam "war" was that what went desperately wrong there was _not_ a US military defeat, but rather the fact that the government they were trying to work with was stupendously corrupt. At some point, it's not worth trying. That was yet another "land reform" situation which hardly went well... Looking back to the "good 'ol days" of North America, it was the 'land of milk and honey' back when they were doing "land reform" where the policy was that anyone [passing appropriate "racial profiles"...] could claim a section of farm land. Once they stop "making land," ownership has a tendancy to congregate, and it is not nearly so simple for later generations... -- select 'cbbrowne' || '@' || 'ntlug.org'; http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/sap.html There are two kinds of fool; One who says "This is old and therefore bad," and one who says "This is new and therefore better." -- John Brunner -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 11 11:56:59 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 06:56:59 -0500 Subject: DRM gets more frightening by the moment Message-ID: <20031211065659.1b3f8a27.joehill@sympatico.ca> Quote: "Instead of containing a song or movie itself, the file would set up a process that automatically delivers files in the right format and potentially triggers an automatic payment system that could be changed moment to moment by the content distributor." Potentially, my ass. Link: http://news.com.com/2100-1027-5119365.html -- JoeHill ++ ICQ # 280779813 Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "The free communication of ideas and opinions is one of the most precious of the rights of man."-- Declaration of the Rights of Man -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From hgr-FjoMob2a1F7QT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 11 14:56:21 2003 From: hgr-FjoMob2a1F7QT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Herb Richter) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 09:56:21 -0500 (EST) Subject: Freevo In-Reply-To: <3FD7D26E.7080509-gaRZxGPHtpBxZtjKW1aY+1aTQe2KTcn/@public.gmane.org> References: <3FD7D26E.7080509@pcsecurityonline.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Dec 2003, Jason Shein wrote: > Anyone here tried Freevo? > http://freevo.sourceforge.net > > Judging by the screenshots it's someone local working on it > http://freevo.sourceforge.net/screenshots_blue_round2.html#freevo_ss2 > Notice the local content ;) Andrew Howlett who spoke on _Linux Games_ at the August NewTLUG meeting mentioned that he and a friend (?) were involved in freevo. In fact he suggested that he may be able to do another Newtlug talk on freevo next year. > Any experiences good/bad before I jump into my next project here? > > > -- Herb Richter Toronto, Ontario http://PartsAndService.com http://PartsAndService.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cdasilva-q6EoVN9bke6w5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 11 16:10:09 2003 From: cdasilva-q6EoVN9bke6w5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org (Clive DaSilva) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 11:10:09 -0500 Subject: KDE/Mandrake 9.1 In-Reply-To: <20031205112559.16a7ca5d.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FD0B00F.5070808@iprimus.ca> <20031205112559.16a7ca5d.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <3FD896E1.1090604@iprimus.ca> JoeHill wrote: >On Fri, 05 Dec 2003 11:19:27 -0500 >Clive DaSilva wrote: > > > >>Had a really weird experience yesterday. I have been running mandrake >>9.1 with the stock kernel 2.4.21-013mdk, for perhaps 3 months. >>I read an advisory which suggested that I upgraded the kernel to >>2.4.21-026mdk, (all nicely packaged by the Drake folks), as a >>preventative measure against some root exploits. I use KDE 3.1 as the >>window manager, and since I've installed this kernel, KDE sometimes >>doesn't come up when I login as a user (it just hangs), or it comes up >>and crashes within 5 minutes. I have since been using IceWM as my backup >>window manager. Now, I've kept the old kernel, so I have a choice of >>kernels to boot from. When I try to run KDE using the old kernel, it >>crashes too. >> >> > >I haven't seen anything like this come up on any of the Mandrake lists, but I >would suggest asking as well on Expert. > >Do you see anything in /var/log/messages or /var/log/XFree86.0.log? > >It could be that KDE was compiled against the old kernel and is pitching a fit >now that newer modules are being loaded, though why when you boot into the *old* >kernel would hence be a mystery. > > > Hello Joe Thanks for your comments. I could see KDE barfing at the new kernel and modules, but as to why I had probs with my original kerenel, well who knows. I thought perhaps that I should remove KDE all together and then re-install it from the Mandrake CD, but I decided against, wasn't too thrilled with KDE anyhow (bloatware). My solution was to use the XFCE window manager which is small and light, allows me to use all the KDE applications, etc Thanks for your comments Clice -- Clive DaSilva CMA Home Tel: 416-421-2480 Cell: 416-560-8820 Email: cdasilva-q6EoVN9bke6w5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org Mandrake Linux 9.1 Kernel 2.4.21 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lists-jiQtrEI3vUxWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 11 18:50:15 2003 From: lists-jiQtrEI3vUxWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (S P Arif Sahari Wibowo) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 13:50:15 -0500 (EST) Subject: Open-source software gets boost at UN Message-ID: Open-source software gets boost at UN http://www.iht.com/articles/121033.html Thursday, December 11, 2003 GENEVA: A months-long backroom battle led by Brazil, with support from India, South Africa and China, against the United States over open-source software took center stage Wednesday at the UN information summit meeting here. ... Brazil wanted the summit talks to endorse the idea that the digital divide cannot be bridged with proprietary software and that open-source software, which is developed collaboratively and exchanged freely over the Internet, is the best path forward. The language was watered down considerably in the summit meeting's written declaration after pressure from developed countries, according to participants, but the free software did get a mention as an important option for developing countries to consider. ... -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From fcsoft-3Emkkp+1Olsmp8TqCH86vg at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 11 18:31:21 2003 From: fcsoft-3Emkkp+1Olsmp8TqCH86vg at public.gmane.org (bob findlay) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 13:31:21 -0500 Subject: Mandrake liveCD site Message-ID: <20031211183241.58F831EE671@outbox.allstream.net> Does anyone know the URL for the new Mandrake liveCD? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From nastos-JAjqph6Yjy8fbXvGcxQkLSwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 11 18:57:43 2003 From: nastos-JAjqph6Yjy8fbXvGcxQkLSwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Fred Nastos) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 13:57:43 -0500 Subject: Open-source software gets boost at UN In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200312111357.43236.nastos@physics.utoronto.ca> > participants, but the free software did get a mention as an important > option for developing countries to consider. > ... Great. I can hear it now, "Opensource software? Isn't that third-world software? Like they use in developing countries." -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From aacton-B71PBEe7S7Y at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 11 18:50:19 2003 From: aacton-B71PBEe7S7Y at public.gmane.org (Austin) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 13:50:19 -0500 Subject: Mandrake liveCD site In-Reply-To: <20031211183241.58F831EE671-pwyU32sTfCqP7boJH+kiu+TW4wlIGRCZ@public.gmane.org>; from fcsoft-3Emkkp+1Olsmp8TqCH86vg@public.gmane.org on Thu, Dec 11, 2003 at 13:31:21 -0500 References: <20031211183241.58F831EE671@outbox.allstream.net> Message-ID: <20031211185019.GC2713@groundstate.chem.yorku.ca> On 12/11/2003 01:31:21 PM, bob findlay wrote: > Does anyone know the URL for the new Mandrake liveCD? It's on all the mandrake mirrors. See http://www.mandrakelinux.com/en/ftp.php3 for a list. Austin -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 11 18:25:33 2003 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter L. Peres) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 20:25:33 +0200 (IST) Subject: central mail In-Reply-To: <200312101433.54738.fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FD5171B.A49304B9@onlink.net> <3FD757E7.F8D570D8@onlink.net> <200312101433.54738.fraser@wehave.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Dec 2003, Fraser Campbell wrote: > There's a reason it wasn't suggested before, see the problems that you are > having ... fwiw it works here between SO, Nestcape, pine and a windoze email client (I forget which, I think Eudora) just perfectly. The server is local (on my network). Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 11 18:36:44 2003 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter L. Peres) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 20:36:44 +0200 (IST) Subject: In the Beginning was the Command Line In-Reply-To: <1071098106.12446.79.camel-eTg7c9BlEq95hrpxxnI5yFifK/mc/01a@public.gmane.org> References: <1071066273.4922.19.camel@theconstruct.mineallmeyn.net> <20031210102436.7381badf.joehill@sympatico.ca> <20031210185140.GB27521@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20031210162908.7e1840c8.joehill@sympatico.ca> <1071093805.12446.62.camel@rincewind.discworld> <20031210230520.GZ2033@hatefulsheep> <1071098106.12446.79.camel@rincewind.discworld> Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Dec 2003, Marcus Brubaker wrote: ... > Interesting side note: I once heard it said that the author of the > Wizard of Oz was strongly in favor of having a resource backed > currency. So much so, in fact, that he wrote it into the story, "Follow In view of the tricks governments and other entities employ nowadays to fake their ability to back their currency with resources, that makes perfect sense to me. Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 11 20:53:01 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 15:53:01 -0500 Subject: GTK 1.2 and GTK 2 Fonts Message-ID: <20031211155301.67e70bc5.joehill@sympatico.ca> I used to be dead set against this whole AA fonts issue, but now that I've discovered Verdana, I think it looks pretty cool, definitely better than the jagged and enemic fonts I had before when I was running MDK 9.1 (had them disabled). Only problem is, although all GTK2 apps use the AA Verdana, all GTK 1.2 apps (well, all 2 of them: GCombust and J-Pilot) still use ol' Helvetica. Is there any way anyone's aware of to make them all consistent, or are GTK 1.2 apps simply not able to use AA fonts? I am running XFCE4 with Pekwm as my WM, and XFCE4 allows me to set the application fonts. I have tried editing my .gtkrc-1.2-gnome2 config file thusly: style "user-font" { font="Verdana 10" } but to no avail. Thanks! -- JoeHill ++ ICQ # 280779813 Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "I have the South in front of me and the bankers behind me -- and for my country, I fear the bankers most."-- Abraham Lincoln -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From aacton-B71PBEe7S7Y at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 11 20:56:02 2003 From: aacton-B71PBEe7S7Y at public.gmane.org (Austin) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 15:56:02 -0500 Subject: GTK 1.2 and GTK 2 Fonts In-Reply-To: <20031211155301.67e70bc5.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org>; from joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org on Thu, Dec 11, 2003 at 15:53:01 -0500 References: <20031211155301.67e70bc5.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <20031211205602.GA2781@groundstate.chem.yorku.ca> On 12/11/2003 03:53:01 PM, JoeHill wrote: > Is there any way anyone's aware of to make them all consistent, or > are GTK 1.2 apps simply not able to use AA fonts? I'm 90% sure that that is the case. Austin -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 11 21:51:19 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 16:51:19 -0500 Subject: GTK 1.2 and GTK 2 Fonts In-Reply-To: <20031211205602.GA2781-248nrIFxrsEvhQDQrEiaqAi/Dn5oqdb4930Pai70D+E@public.gmane.org> References: <20031211155301.67e70bc5.joehill@sympatico.ca> <20031211205602.GA2781@groundstate.chem.yorku.ca> Message-ID: <20031211165119.1a72271f.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Thu, 11 Dec 2003 15:56:02 -0500 Austin wrote: > > Is there any way anyone's aware of to make them all consistent, or > > are GTK 1.2 apps simply not able to use AA fonts? > > I'm 90% sure that that is the case. I found that in /etc/gtk/ there are a bunch of config files that I could "play" with (verrrrry carefully), but I need that old app xfontsel to get the proper name to use. I cannot seem to find a Mandrake package for XFree86-tools, though, which apparently provides xfontsel. Know where I might find that? -- JoeHill ++ ICQ # 280779813 Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness."-- John Kenneth Galbraith -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 11 22:21:07 2003 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 17:21:07 -0500 Subject: Open-source software gets boost at UN In-Reply-To: <200312111357.43236.nastos-JAjqph6Yjy8fbXvGcxQkLSwD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <200312111357.43236.nastos@physics.utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <3FD8EDD3.5060806@rogers.com> Fred Nastos wrote: >>participants, but the free software did get a mention as an important >>option for developing countries to consider. >> ... > > > Great. I can hear it now, "Opensource software? Isn't that third-world > software? Like they use in developing countries." Where all the developers live? ;-) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From zhunt-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 11 23:36:37 2003 From: zhunt-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (Zoltan) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 17:36:37 -0600 Subject: YYZTechA new computer newspaper for Toronto? References: Message-ID: <033001c3c03f$9f14f7d0$d10ee540@D2XGQ811> Martin, Yes, I'd love to have someone cover the TLUG meetings, I'd like to get regular coverage of the group meetings- tell people what they're missing :) Articles on peal, java would be good too, tell me what you'd like to write about. No problem keeping articles to the print issue only. I'm planning to handle the online/print issue like Maisonneuve (http://www.maisonneuve.org/) does it- all the articles are listed, but only certain ones can be read online- more incentive for people to pick up the print copy if they know what's in there. Zoltan YYZtech group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/yyztech/ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Martin Duclos" To: Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2003 9:00 AM Subject: Re: [TLUG]: YYZTechA new computer newspaper for Toronto? > I'd be interested in contributing to the project. Java related articles and > possibly perl as well as newbie FAQs. Coverage of the TLUG meetings? Sing my > up! > > Martin Duclos > tchitow-PkbjNfxxIARBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org > > > ----Original Message Follows---- > From: William Park > Reply-To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > Subject: Re: [TLUG]: YYZTechA new computer newspaper for Toronto? > Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 01:37:55 -0500 > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Received: from lethe.ss.org ([206.108.5.1]) by mc5-f4.hotmail.com with > Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6824); Tue, 9 Dec 2003 22:38:15 -0800 > Received: by lethe.ss.org (Postfix)id E0A8E6D4B0; Wed, 10 Dec 2003 01:37:55 > -0500 (EST) > Received: by lethe.ss.org (Postfix, from userid 54)id 9942F6D4AE; Wed, 10 > Dec 2003 01:37:55 -0500 (EST) > X-Message-Info: JGTYoYF78jFXbUPCWu8wmXTvDN8yKrR8 > Delivered-To: tlug-route-MHjupGqSvN5g9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org > X-Original-To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > Delivered-To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > Message-ID: <20031210063755.GA333-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ at public.gmane.org> > Mail-Followup-To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > References: <017d01c3bebc$8a46ca10$ba0ce540-9Ju/zT+hGic at public.gmane.org> > In-Reply-To: <017d01c3bebc$8a46ca10$ba0ce540-9Ju/zT+hGic at public.gmane.org> > User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i > Precedence: list > Return-Path: owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > X-OriginalArrivalTime: 10 Dec 2003 06:38:15.0833 (UTC) > FILETIME=[30E24090:01C3BEE8] > > On Tue, Dec 09, 2003 at 07:25:47PM -0600, Zoltan wrote: > > In the early 1990s there where a two free newspapers providing computing > > information for the Toronto audience: Toronto Computes and The Computer > > Paper. Since last September these two have been replaced by HUB Canada. > > Unfortunately, HUB seems to be more about consumer electronics and the > > latest Windows applications > > Probably, because revenue comes from ads. Newspapers and magazines are > there to sell ads, with writing used as fillers. > > > than for someone looking for for an ISP with > > good tech support or where to meet Linux-heads in Toronto. > > > > To this end I'd like to see who would be interested in a new computer > paper > > for the Toronto area. This would be a free and have a > pro-Linux/OpenSource > > Despite hype, there is nothing to "sell" on Linux or Open Source area. > Well, so far, at least. > > > -Is this something that is needed? > > I think one is enough for GTA computer stores. > > > -What would you like to see / not see in a computer newspaper > > More sale items. > > > -Would you be interested in writing or helping out? > > For print newspaper or magazine, yes. For online, no. > > -- > William Park, Open Geometry Consulting, > Linux solution for data management and processing. > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > > _________________________________________________________________ > The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/bcomm&pgmarket=en-ca&RU=http%3a%2f%2fjoin.msn.com%2f%3fpage%3dmisc%2fspecialoffers%26pgmarket%3den-ca > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From aacton-B71PBEe7S7Y at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 11 22:31:10 2003 From: aacton-B71PBEe7S7Y at public.gmane.org (Austin) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 17:31:10 -0500 Subject: GTK 1.2 and GTK 2 Fonts In-Reply-To: <20031211165119.1a72271f.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org>; from joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org on Thu, Dec 11, 2003 at 16:51:19 -0500 References: <20031211155301.67e70bc5.joehill@sympatico.ca> <20031211205602.GA2781@groundstate.chem.yorku.ca> <20031211165119.1a72271f.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <20031211223110.GA2898@groundstate.chem.yorku.ca> On 12/11/2003 04:51:19 PM, JoeHill wrote: > I found that in /etc/gtk/ there are a bunch of config files that I > could "play" with (verrrrry carefully), but I need that old app > xfontsel to get the proper name to use. I cannot seem to find a > Mandrake package for XFree86-tools, though, which apparently provides > xfontsel. > > Know where I might find that? X11R6-contrib probably. Austin -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 11 20:11:52 2003 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter L. Peres) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 22:11:52 +0200 (IST) Subject: central mail In-Reply-To: References: <3FD5171B.A49304B9@onlink.net> <3FD757E7.F8D570D8@onlink.net> <200312101433.54738.fraser@wehave.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Dec 2003, Peter L. Peres wrote: > > On Wed, 10 Dec 2003, Fraser Campbell wrote: > > > There's a reason it wasn't suggested before, see the problems that you are > > having ... > > fwiw it works here between SO, Nestcape, pine and a windoze email client > (I forget which, I think Eudora) just perfectly. The server is local (on > my network). Oh, and Kmail, and TkMail and a couple of others. It's a question of having the right popper (pop3 server). I use the one tht comes with postfix. Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 11 23:27:23 2003 From: fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Fraser Campbell) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 18:27:23 -0500 Subject: central mail In-Reply-To: References: <3FD5171B.A49304B9@onlink.net> Message-ID: <200312111827.23676.fraser@wehave.net> On December 11, 2003 03:11 pm, Peter L. Peres wrote: > > fwiw it works here between SO, Nestcape, pine and a windoze email client > > (I forget which, I think Eudora) just perfectly. The server is local (on > > my network). > > Oh, and Kmail, and TkMail and a couple of others. It's a question of > having the right popper (pop3 server). I use the one tht comes with > postfix. I've worked for quite a few ISPs and "leave mail on server" is basically a recipe for disaster on both client and server. The pop protocol is brain-dead simple so I've always assumed that the problems were on the Outlook side, you're probably right that it might be ok with a sane email client. Still pop3 only offers a single folder (inbox), imap is a vastly better solution for someone wishing to share their email between multiple clients. You can have all of your email folders including Sent and Draft folders available in all clients (even web clients) by using imap, I've never heard of functionality close to that no-matter what ugly hacks people make with pop. P.S. postfix doesn't include a pop server. -- Fraser Campbell http://www.wehave.net/ Georgetown, Ontario, Canada Debian GNU/Linux -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 11 23:38:49 2003 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter L. Peres) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 01:38:49 +0200 (IST) Subject: central mail In-Reply-To: <200312111827.23676.fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FD5171B.A49304B9@onlink.net> <200312111827.23676.fraser@wehave.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Dec 2003, Fraser Campbell wrote: > I've worked for quite a few ISPs and "leave mail on server" is basically a > recipe for disaster on both client and server. > The pop protocol is brain-dead simple so I've always assumed that the > problems were on the Outlook side, you're probably right that it might > be ok with a sane email client. I trust your judgement and I appreciate very much that you are sharing this with us. I have never used Outhouse (or allesschluck as I like to call it - means swallow everything) with this combination. > Still pop3 only offers a single folder (inbox), imap is a vastly better > solution for someone wishing to share their email between multiple clients. > You can have all of your email folders including Sent and Draft folders > available in all clients (even web clients) by using imap, I've never heard > of functionality close to that no-matter what ugly hacks people make with > pop. I didn't hack it it just happens to work for me ! ;-) You are right, imap is more powerful, but many (many many many) people do not want/need imap's features. > P.S. postfix doesn't include a pop server. You are right, I'm using pop3d from the pop/fetchmail package. I also have imap etc but since it all works so well for me I never saw a reason to set it up. Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From zhunt-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 12 00:42:49 2003 From: zhunt-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (Zoltan) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 18:42:49 -0600 Subject: Update: YYZTechA new computer newspaper for Toronto? References: <017d01c3bebc$8a46ca10$ba0ce540@D2XGQ811> <20031211043826.50FDC402B@cbbrowne.com> Message-ID: <038c01c3c048$de5fbb60$d10ee540@D2XGQ811> Just wanted to say thanks for all the feedback I've got so far. I was a bit surprised how many people responded :) I think we're ready to start talking about a what it's going to look like and who wants to do what. To keep discussions from filling up the TLUG list, I've started up an open yahoo group at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/yyztech/ where we can hash out ideas. Naturally this is open to anyone who wants to drop in. Based on what people have said, I've come up with a list of things that the new newspaper should have. This can be considered a starting point, it's by no means fixed. --- Proposed Sections --- Letters, Editorial, Cartoon page Geek Gadgets (news on what's new in phones, toys, maybe the odd music reviews, Linux games) Magazine roundup (what other Linux magazines are covering) Free User-group announcements (guest speakers, upcoming events, new groups) Reviews (books, software) 2-3 general articles Monthly Poll (results taken from a poll done on the web site) Fave-Links (favourite links submitted to website by visitors) Weird facts (statistics, quotes, etc.) Free user group listings (group, website, ) Buy/sell classifieds with web listing as well Website: www.yyztech.ca already registered, website coming soon Only Selected articles will be online, but a full table of contents will be available (see: http://www.maisonneuve.org/ for an example) classifieds (mirror print edition) Perhaps an online Linux-skills database? Distribution: Colleges, universities, private tech schools, coffee shops, computer shops user-group subscription rate (user group gets 10-20 copies sent to one address) Individual subscription rate While I'm sure most of us are getting into holiday mode soon, lets talk about this some more so we can hit the round running in January, Zoltan YYZtech group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/yyztech/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From gstrom-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 12 00:43:51 2003 From: gstrom-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org (Glen Strom) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 19:43:51 -0500 Subject: GTK 1.2 and GTK 2 Fonts In-Reply-To: <20031211155301.67e70bc5.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <20031211155301.67e70bc5.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <20031211194351.5cfa6494.gstrom@eol.ca> On Thu, 11 Dec 2003 15:53:01 -0500 JoeHill wrote: > Only problem is, although all GTK2 apps use the AA Verdana, all GTK > 1.2 apps(well, all 2 of them: GCombust and J-Pilot) still use ol' > Helvetica. > > Is there any way anyone's aware of to make them all consistent, or are > GTK 1.2 apps simply not able to use AA fonts? > > I am running XFCE4 with Pekwm as my WM, and XFCE4 allows me to set the > application fonts. I have tried editing my .gtkrc-1.2-gnome2 config > file thusly: > > style "user-font" > { > font="Verdana 10" > } > > but to no avail. > Anti-aliasing doesn't work on gtk 1.x apps. There's a workaround that is supposed to create AA but I can't remember what it's called. I'm using Slackware 9.0. It has a file called .gtkrc which controls the fonts in gtk 1.x apps. Here's what mine looks like: (note that although it says "do not edit," I had to edit the font info by hand to get it to work. # -- THEME AUTO-WRITTEN DO NOT EDIT include "/usr/share/themes/Sunshine-mine/gtk/gtkrc" style "user-font" { font="-microsoft-verdana-medium-r-normal-*-14-*-*-*-*-*-*-*" } widget_class "*" style "user-font" include "/home/glens/.gtkrc.mine" # -- THEME AUTO-WRITTEN DO NOT EDIT -- Glen Strom gstrom-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From blsonne-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 12 01:17:56 2003 From: blsonne-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Byron Sonne) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 20:17:56 -0500 Subject: hard drive wanted In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3FD91744.8080809@rogers.com> >>I could make use of one of tose drives. My old Mac 7200 >>has a tiny and a small drive, they could both fit onto >>a 2GB drive and have some room for growth. Cool... just mail me off list then and we can arrange a time or something. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lists-jiQtrEI3vUxWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 12 01:50:32 2003 From: lists-jiQtrEI3vUxWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (S P Arif Sahari Wibowo) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 20:50:32 -0500 (EST) Subject: Open-source software gets boost at UN In-Reply-To: <200312111357.43236.nastos-JAjqph6Yjy8fbXvGcxQkLSwD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <200312111357.43236.nastos@physics.utoronto.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Dec 2003, Fred Nastos wrote: >Great. I can hear it now, "Opensource software? Isn't that third-world >software? Like they use in developing countries." Don't worry too much. As the trend goes, there will be more and more proprietary software used in developed countries made in developing countries. It may even come a time when it is easier for a software developer to join a development of an open source software than a proprietary software (since he/she join it as volunteer), and therefore an open source software will have more developer from developed countries than proprietary software. :-) -- Stephan Paul Arif Sahari Wibowo _____ _____ _____ _____ /____ /____/ /____/ /____ _____/ / / / _____/ http://www.arifsaha.com/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 12 02:52:01 2003 From: cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 21:52:01 -0500 Subject: A Free Architecture, Maybe? Message-ID: <20031212025201.DDC01404D@cbbrowne.com> http://freedomtechnologycenter.org/events/ X-Mailer: MH-E 7.3; nmh 1.1-RC1; XEmacs 21.4 (patch 14) OpenRISC demo: Monday, December 15, 2003, 7pm On Monday, December 15, at 7pm, OpenCores developer Damjan Lampret will give the first public demonstration of an all-Open Source System-On-Chip (SoC) right here at the Freedom Technology Center. The new OpenCores System-On-Chip, developed and manufactured by Flextronics Semiconductor, runs Linux, uClinux, or eCos. The SoC is exclusively built with freely licensed OpenCores IP cores. The chip includes the OpenRISC OR1200 32-bit processor, a Memory Controller for SDRAM/FLASH/SRAM, a 10/100 Mbps Ethernet MAC, 32-bit, 33/66MHz PCI support, and a 16550 UART. Lampret said, "Are open source soft cores starting to have impact on the semiconductor industry? Yes, slowly but irreversibly. What started in 1983 with the GNU project is now starting in open source hardware with OpenCores, 20 years later." The demonstration will cover the System-On-Chip, how it was designed and the manufacturing technology used. Special attention will be paid to the processor, the OpenRISC. It is a completely new RISC architecture developed using open source model. The GNU Compiler Collection (gcc) was ported, along with the GNU Binary Utilities including the assembler, linker, and debugger. An advanced simulator was built that can simulate now only the processor but an entire SoC, and of course a complete synthesizable RTL implementation was developed. A live presentation will show how the GNU development tools gdb and DDD can be used to download software code and debug it on the board. The OpenRISC OR1200 has a memory management unit (MMU), so can run either conventional Linux, which requires an MMU, or uClinux, which is intended for processors without an MMU. ====================================================================== This certainly isn't a "barn-burner" as far as performance goes; it's no 3GHz Itanic, but then I wouldn't much want the latter, either. If a system was available at a reasonable price, I'd buy one for sure, even though it be somewhat wimpy. -- (format nil "~S@~S" "aa454" "freenet.carleton.ca") http://cbbrowne.com/info/postgresql.html "If God meant us to be vegetarians why'd He make cows out of meat?" -- seen on a bumper sticker -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jkls-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 12 03:27:06 2003 From: jkls-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (jkls) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 22:27:06 -0500 Subject: Do I need sgi_fam? In-Reply-To: <20031124053125.GC3751-DPTsmTRGv3o@public.gmane.org> References: <3FC0ED72.8010006@sympatico.ca> <3FC0F432.1020708@sympatico.ca> <20031124053125.GC3751@m433> Message-ID: <3FD9358A.8060505@sympatico.ca> I can't believe it's been three weeks but thank you for this detailed answer. I have been setting up Gentoo on a P400. "emerge system" took up one whole computing weekend. I absolutely love the results. Thanks again. LS Walter Dnes wrote: >On Sun, Nov 23, 2003 at 12:53:54PM -0500, jkls wrote > > >>Ok, I've found where it may be started. >>It's in inetd.conf. So I wonder why it >>is always running and do I actually need it? >> >> > > FAM (File Access Monitor) is a program that monitors constantly >monitors specific files for any changes. Here's the theory... > > If you're running one program that needs to update a screen when a >file changes, the program can poll the file every few seconds. But what >if you're running a whole bunch of programs that need to track file >changes ? Rather than have several programs scanning your drive, the >FAM daemon does all the monitoring and informs client programs when >files have changed. If there is any overlap, FAM will inform both >clients, polling the file only once, saving a bunch of disk accesses. >With multiple file-browsers on multiple desktops, this is supposed to >be the most efficient method. > > Now for the implementation. FAM is *NOT* a "well-known service" with >a reserved port in /etc/services. So it has to register with sunrpc on >port 111 (hello L1on and other linux worms of a few years ago) and is >assigned an un-used port. Client programs query sunrpc for the port >number of FAM, and then talk to FAM on the assigned port. I don't think >that programs require FAM to run. This is different from Redhat which >set up KDE with dependancies to not install if FAM wasn't installed. > > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 12 03:43:22 2003 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 22:43:22 -0500 Subject: A Free Architecture, Maybe? In-Reply-To: <20031212025201.DDC01404D-xzRQuAxiFLNWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org> References: <20031212025201.DDC01404D@cbbrowne.com> Message-ID: <20031212034322.GA1684@node1.opengeometry.net> On Thu, Dec 11, 2003 at 09:52:01PM -0500, Christopher Browne wrote: > http://freedomtechnologycenter.org/events/ > X-Mailer: MH-E 7.3; nmh 1.1-RC1; XEmacs 21.4 (patch 14) > > OpenRISC demo: Monday, December 15, 2003, 7pm > > On Monday, December 15, at 7pm, OpenCores developer Damjan Lampret > will give the first public demonstration of an all-Open Source > System-On-Chip (SoC) right here at the Freedom Technology Center. It's in California... damn! > ====================================================================== > > This certainly isn't a "barn-burner" as far as performance goes; it's > no 3GHz Itanic, but then I wouldn't much want the latter, either. > > If a system was available at a reasonable price, I'd buy one for sure, > even though it be somewhat wimpy. Me too. In fact, 99% of people woudn't notice if their computer was swapped with regular 386DX running 1GHz. -- William Park, Open Geometry Consulting, Linux solution for data management and processing. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From legrady-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 12 03:49:33 2003 From: legrady-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Tom Legrady) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 22:49:33 -0500 Subject: A Free Architecture, Maybe? In-Reply-To: <20031212025201.DDC01404D-xzRQuAxiFLNWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org> References: <20031212025201.DDC01404D@cbbrowne.com> Message-ID: <3FD93ACD.60809@rogers.com> Getting to Mountain View, California, during rush-hour traffic might be a challenge Tom Legrady Christopher Browne wrote: >On Monday, December 15, at 7pm, OpenCores developer Damjan Lampret >will give the first public demonstration of an all-Open Source >System-On-Chip (SoC) right here at the Freedom Technology Center. > > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 12 03:57:40 2003 From: cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org (cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 22:57:40 -0500 Subject: A Free Architecture, Maybe? In-Reply-To: Message from William Park of "Thu, 11 Dec 2003 22:43:22 EST." <20031212034322.GA1684-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20031212025201.DDC01404D@cbbrowne.com> <20031212034322.GA1684@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <20031212035741.A38C5404D@cbbrowne.com> > On Thu, Dec 11, 2003 at 09:52:01PM -0500, Christopher Browne wrote: > > http://freedomtechnologycenter.org/events/ > > X-Mailer: MH-E 7.3; nmh 1.1-RC1; XEmacs 21.4 (patch 14) > > > > OpenRISC demo: Monday, December 15, 2003, 7pm > > > > On Monday, December 15, at 7pm, OpenCores developer Damjan Lampret > > will give the first public demonstration of an all-Open Source > > System-On-Chip (SoC) right here at the Freedom Technology Center. > > > > It's in California... damn! > > > ====================================================================== > > > > This certainly isn't a "barn-burner" as far as performance goes; it's > > no 3GHz Itanic, but then I wouldn't much want the latter, either. > > > > If a system was available at a reasonable price, I'd buy one for sure, > > even though it be somewhat wimpy. > > Me too. In fact, 99% of people woudn't notice if their computer was > swapped with regular 386DX running 1GHz. Drew Sullivan keeps telling tales about "upgrading" by putting in systems with the slowest CPUs he can find, but with reasonably snappy disk drives, which leaves everyone happy. Doubtless anyone that looks at specs would be _appalled_ if they discovered that someone was installing servers with any less than the highest number of GHz, but realistically, though, they probably wouldn't know how many instructions a second those CPUs _truly_ execute. (After all, it's not 1 cycle per instruction...) -- output = reverse("moc.enworbbc" "@" "enworbbc") http://cbbrowne.com/info/wp.html Despite the high cost of living, it remains very popular. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 12 03:58:44 2003 From: cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org (cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 22:58:44 -0500 Subject: A Free Architecture, Maybe? In-Reply-To: Message from Tom Legrady of "Thu, 11 Dec 2003 22:49:33 EST." <3FD93ACD.60809-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <20031212025201.DDC01404D@cbbrowne.com> <3FD93ACD.60809@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20031212035845.260BD404D@cbbrowne.com> > Getting to Mountain View, California, during rush-hour traffic might be > a challenge Yes, it could be a bit of a drive :-). It doesn't make the release any the less interesting... -- let name="aa454" and tld="freenet.carleton.ca" in name ^ "@" ^ tld;; http://cbbrowne.com/info/spiritual.html "There is nothing in the world more helpless and irresponsible and depraved than a man in the depths of an ether binge." -- Dr. Hunter S. Thompson -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From blsonne-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 12 06:44:46 2003 From: blsonne-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Byron Sonne) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 01:44:46 -0500 Subject: A Free Architecture, Maybe? In-Reply-To: <3FD93ACD.60809-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <20031212025201.DDC01404D@cbbrowne.com> <3FD93ACD.60809@rogers.com> Message-ID: <3FD963DE.3040601@rogers.com> > Getting to Mountain View, California, during rush-hour traffic > might be a challenge Provided you're not stopped by forest fires or The Governator first.. :) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From mr6re9-mI4xJ4qlgtBiLUuM0BA3LQ at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 12 12:21:15 2003 From: mr6re9-mI4xJ4qlgtBiLUuM0BA3LQ at public.gmane.org (GDHough) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 07:21:15 -0500 Subject: [sumthin] Message-ID: <200312120721.15510.mr6re9@execulink.com> Happy Holidays, Jan 19 will be my Apache's one year birthday. In that time I've learned much about running a webserver on Linux. One thing I've seen many times over are GET's for /sumthin/. I don't GET it? Why /sumthin/ and not just /? Is this a way to grab banners, 404's? Does anyone ever put something in /sumthin/? farmer6re9 -- Eating Crow is better with MyCrowSauce -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 12 12:29:09 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 07:29:09 -0500 Subject: [sumthin] In-Reply-To: <200312120721.15510.mr6re9-mI4xJ4qlgtBiLUuM0BA3LQ@public.gmane.org> References: <200312120721.15510.mr6re9@execulink.com> Message-ID: <20031212072909.69bcd68d.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Fri, 12 Dec 2003 07:21:15 -0500 GDHough wrote: > Jan 19 will be my Apache's one year birthday. In that time I've learned much > about running a webserver on Linux. One thing I've seen many times over are > GET's for /sumthin/. I don't GET it? Why /sumthin/ and not just /? Is this a > way to grab banners, 404's? > > Does anyone ever put something in /sumthin/? I was curious myself, so I did a little google.ca/linux and lo and behold: "This looks to be a banner grabbing attempt on your webservers. Alot of scanners/worms will do this in an attempt to find out what type of web server you are running and compare it against a list of vulnerable servers for some particular exploit. The `"/sumthin" is placed within the GET command to trigger a 404 error, which in turn reveals valuable information about your server back the requestor. If the information returned by your server is useful to the scanner/worm you may see other exploits in the near future targeted towards your box." -- JoeHill ++ ICQ # 280779813 Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "Behind every great fortune is a crime." -- Balzac -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 12 15:06:40 2003 From: fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Fraser Campbell) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 10:06:40 -0500 Subject: OT: keyboard layouts Message-ID: <200312121006.40577.fraser@wehave.net> Hi, I'd like to get myself a new keyboard for Christmas. I'm considering the split keyboard (Microsoft Natural IIRC) or a dvorak layout. I find that if I type a lot (programming session of any significant length) then the top of my hands start to really ache. Anyone have experience/recommendations on the effectiveness of different keyboards in reducing typing fatigue? -- Fraser Campbell http://www.wehave.net/ Halton Hills, Ontario, Canada Debian GNU/Linux -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From taavi-LbuTpDkqzNzXI80/IeQp7B2eb7JE58TQ at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 12 15:21:11 2003 From: taavi-LbuTpDkqzNzXI80/IeQp7B2eb7JE58TQ at public.gmane.org (Taavi Burns) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 10:21:11 -0500 Subject: OT: keyboard layouts In-Reply-To: <200312121006.40577.fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org> References: <200312121006.40577.fraser@wehave.net> Message-ID: <20031212152111.GL2033@hatefulsheep> On Fri, Dec 12, 2003 at 10:06:40AM -0500, Fraser Campbell wrote: > Hi, > > I'd like to get myself a new keyboard for Christmas. I'm considering the > split keyboard (Microsoft Natural IIRC) or a dvorak layout. And these two are mutually exclusive how? :) You can easily use both. If you're interested in alternative layouts for the keyboard, you should be quite prepared to NOT be looking at the keys anyway, so the glyphs on them shouldn't matter. > I find that if I type a lot (programming session of any significant length) > then the top of my hands start to really ache. Anyone have > experience/recommendations on the effectiveness of different keyboards in > reducing typing fatigue? I can type about 10WPM on a Dvorak layout (vs >70 on a qwerty), so I haven't exactly switched over myself. The Dvorak layout "feels" better to me, though, even while being thoroughly frustrating because it's so slow. ;) I have a few coworkers who use keybaords from Kinesis. I believe that one of them uses it with a Dvorak, while the other still uses qwerty. Kinesis offers a selection of keyboards ranging from nearly traditional to "pretty far out and pricey". So again, it depends how much you want to spend. http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/keyboards.htm http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/us_versions.htm BTW, the guy who uses Dvorak does use vi; he's just learned where the control keys are. -- taa /*eof*/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 12 15:27:13 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 10:27:13 -0500 Subject: OT: keyboard layouts In-Reply-To: <200312121006.40577.fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org> References: <200312121006.40577.fraser@wehave.net> Message-ID: <20031212102713.4d07d0a7.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Fri, 12 Dec 2003 10:06:40 -0500 Fraser Campbell wrote: > I find that if I type a lot (programming session of any significant length) > then the top of my hands start to really ache. Anyone have > experience/recommendations on the effectiveness of different keyboards in > reducing typing fatigue? That ache is probably from the tension of holding your fingers above the keyboard at the wrong height/angle. What this usually means is that the keyboard is not set at the proper height/ slant for your hands and forearms to be parallel with the desk. Your elbow should be as close to a 90 degree angle as possible to avoid that strain you are experiencing. I would really recommend, beyond just the keyboard, an adjustable keyboard tray with a built-in wrist support. I picked one up at Ikea for about 40 bucks, IIRC, and it is a wonder. It bolts to the underside of your desk, and is fully adjustable in terms of height, slant, and distance from the desk, and the keyboard sits in a tray with a nice soft wrist support in front of it. I used to work at Bell, so I know all the ergonomics guidelines ;-) I just wish I had a *chair* like I had there, they go for about 800 bucks. -- JoeHill ++ ICQ # 280779813 Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "Reality is what you can get away with." -- Robert Anton Wilson -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 12 15:29:51 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 10:29:51 -0500 Subject: OT: keyboard layouts In-Reply-To: <20031212152111.GL2033-9xiANKxwco6iqb11nhpoTg@public.gmane.org> References: <200312121006.40577.fraser@wehave.net> <20031212152111.GL2033@hatefulsheep> Message-ID: <20031212102951.7dc5f9e4.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Fri, 12 Dec 2003 10:21:11 -0500 Taavi Burns wrote: > I can type about 10WPM on a Dvorak layout (vs >70 on a qwerty), so I > haven't exactly switched over myself. The Dvorak layout "feels" better > to me, though, even while being thoroughly frustrating because it's so > slow. ;) Isn't Dvorak supposed to speed up typing? I mean as opposed to qwerty, which was originally intended to make typing slower, preventing fast typists from outpacing the old typewriters. -- JoeHill ++ ICQ # 280779813 Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "The US is our trading partner, our neighbour, our ally and our friend... and sometimes we'd like to give them such a smack!"-- Rick Mercer -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lists-tZhE6lH4Esk+k03BA+Hq9g at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 12 15:31:54 2003 From: lists-tZhE6lH4Esk+k03BA+Hq9g at public.gmane.org (Oliver Meyn) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 10:31:54 -0500 Subject: OT: keyboard layouts In-Reply-To: <200312121006.40577.fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org> References: <200312121006.40577.fraser@wehave.net> Message-ID: <1071243114.4334.27.camel@theconstruct.mineallmeyn.net> On Fri, 2003-12-12 at 10:06, Fraser Campbell wrote: > Hi, > > I'd like to get myself a new keyboard for Christmas. I'm considering the > split keyboard (Microsoft Natural IIRC) or a dvorak layout. > > I find that if I type a lot (programming session of any significant length) > then the top of my hands start to really ache. Anyone have > experience/recommendations on the effectiveness of different keyboards in > reducing typing fatigue? I'm a recent convert to the split keyboard and now a strong proponent. It does take some getting used (and next time you go to a server console you'll feel really cramped :) but I've found that instead of my wrists looking sort of like | | / \ which caused wrist and thumb pain after more than 4 hrs of typing, they now look more like / \ / \ which I gather is more natural, and sure feels a lot better. Trying not to support M$ whenever possible I bought the logitech version and have been quite happy with it (rh9, 10 & mandrake 9.1 through kvm). It's wireless (mine came with mouse) and hasn't been too bad on batteries. Cheers, Oliver -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jingsu-26n5VD7DAF2Tm46uYYfjYg at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 12 15:31:55 2003 From: jingsu-26n5VD7DAF2Tm46uYYfjYg at public.gmane.org (Jing Su) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 10:31:55 -0500 Subject: OT: keyboard layouts In-Reply-To: <20031212152111.GL2033-9xiANKxwco6iqb11nhpoTg@public.gmane.org> References: <200312121006.40577.fraser@wehave.net> <20031212152111.GL2033@hatefulsheep> Message-ID: > I have a few coworkers who use keybaords from Kinesis. I believe that > > http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/keyboards.htm > http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/us_versions.htm > > BTW, the guy who uses Dvorak does use vi; he's just learned where the > control keys are. I have a kinesis keyboard at home. While I agree that it's very pricey, it's worth the price. It's very comfortable on the hands. They did a good job of putting all the keys within hands reach, without having to stretch your fingers to reach keys like "Backspace". The fancier kinesis (the one I have) supports two layouts. The keys are labelled with both. You can, on the fly, switch layouts without having to modify your locale settings. The Kinesis also supports keyboard macros and button remapping. My only gripe with Dvorak (and why it has been hard for me to switch) is that most programs have hotkeys that assume you're using Qwerty. This goes for OpenOffice and Emacs. The old combinations that were reasonable on qwerty are uncomfortable in Dvorak. -Jing -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From taavi-LbuTpDkqzNzXI80/IeQp7B2eb7JE58TQ at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 12 15:39:47 2003 From: taavi-LbuTpDkqzNzXI80/IeQp7B2eb7JE58TQ at public.gmane.org (Taavi Burns) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 10:39:47 -0500 Subject: OT: keyboard layouts In-Reply-To: <20031212102951.7dc5f9e4.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <200312121006.40577.fraser@wehave.net> <20031212152111.GL2033@hatefulsheep> <20031212102951.7dc5f9e4.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <20031212153947.GM2033@hatefulsheep> On Fri, Dec 12, 2003 at 10:29:51AM -0500, JoeHill wrote: > On Fri, 12 Dec 2003 10:21:11 -0500 Taavi Burns > wrote: > > > I can type about 10WPM on a Dvorak layout (vs >70 on a qwerty), so I > > haven't exactly switched over myself. The Dvorak layout "feels" better to > > me, though, even while being thoroughly frustrating because it's so slow. > > ;) > > Isn't Dvorak supposed to speed up typing? I mean as opposed to qwerty, which > was originally intended to make typing slower, preventing fast typists from > outpacing the old typewriters. Yes, it is supposed to be faster...once you're up to speed on it. :) I haven't spent the time to increase my speed yet. I suppose I should have made that more explicit. IIRC the statistic for fully switching from qwerty to Dvorak is a 50% increase in WPM and a doubling of accuracy. No, I'm not sure where those numbers came from. www.discover.com has an article in their archives "The Curse of Qwerty" which is where I probably got it from. -- taa /*eof*/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 12 15:39:55 2003 From: fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Fraser Campbell) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 10:39:55 -0500 Subject: OT: keyboard layouts In-Reply-To: <20031212102713.4d07d0a7.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <200312121006.40577.fraser@wehave.net> <20031212102713.4d07d0a7.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <200312121039.55561.fraser@wehave.net> On Friday 12 December 2003 10:27, JoeHill wrote: > That ache is probably from the tension of holding your fingers above the > keyboard at the wrong height/angle. > > What this usually means is that the keyboard is not set at the proper > height/ slant for your hands and forearms to be parallel with the desk. > Your elbow should be as close to a 90 degree angle as possible to avoid > that strain you are experiencing. Good point, the ergonomics of my home setup are pretty atrocious. I do plan to improve that as well ;-) -- Fraser Campbell http://www.wehave.net/ Halton Hills, Ontario, Canada Debian GNU/Linux -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From taavi-LbuTpDkqzNzXI80/IeQp7B2eb7JE58TQ at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 12 15:57:14 2003 From: taavi-LbuTpDkqzNzXI80/IeQp7B2eb7JE58TQ at public.gmane.org (Taavi Burns) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 10:57:14 -0500 Subject: OT: keyboard layouts In-Reply-To: References: <200312121006.40577.fraser@wehave.net> <20031212152111.GL2033@hatefulsheep> Message-ID: <20031212155714.GN2033@hatefulsheep> On Fri, Dec 12, 2003 at 10:31:55AM -0500, Jing Su wrote: > The fancier kinesis (the one I have) supports two layouts. The keys are > labelled with both. You can, on the fly, switch layouts without having to > modify your locale settings. The Kinesis also supports keyboard macros > and button remapping. Yeah, the hardware remapping is nice, because you can use your preferred layout during OS installation, recovery, and BIOS duties (who types text into the bios? Not me! But maybe if you plug it into a Mac and need to mess around in OpenFirmware..). > My only gripe with Dvorak (and why it has been hard for me to switch) is > that most programs have hotkeys that assume you're using Qwerty. This > goes for OpenOffice and Emacs. The old combinations that were reasonable > on qwerty are uncomfortable in Dvorak. Any program worth its salt should allow you to remap the control keys anyway. :) -- taa /*eof*/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 12 15:59:02 2003 From: fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Fraser Campbell) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 10:59:02 -0500 Subject: OT: keyboard layouts In-Reply-To: <20031212152111.GL2033-9xiANKxwco6iqb11nhpoTg@public.gmane.org> References: <200312121006.40577.fraser@wehave.net> <20031212152111.GL2033@hatefulsheep> Message-ID: <200312121059.02760.fraser@wehave.net> On Friday 12 December 2003 10:21, Taavi Burns wrote: > > I'd like to get myself a new keyboard for Christmas. I'm considering the > > split keyboard (Microsoft Natural IIRC) or a dvorak layout. > > And these two are mutually exclusive how? :) > > You can easily use both. If you're interested in alternative layouts > for the keyboard, you should be quite prepared to NOT be looking at the > keys anyway, so the glyphs on them shouldn't matter. Are you suggesting I buy a regular split keyboard but tell the system that it's dvorak? Glyphs on the keyboard are rather useful when you're still learning the layout. > I have a few coworkers who use keybaords from Kinesis. I believe that > one of them uses it with a Dvorak, while the other still uses qwerty. > Kinesis offers a selection of keyboards ranging from nearly > traditional to "pretty far out and pricey". So again, it depends how > much you want to spend. > > http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/keyboards.htm > http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/us_versions.htm Ahh, do I want the chair mounted evolution keyboard with built in touchpad, or do I want the Professional Contoured Keyboard with foot pedal, on the fly qwerty->dvorak switching, hmmm ... now do I want to spent over 200 USD on a keyboard :-) -- Fraser Campbell http://www.wehave.net/ Halton Hills, Ontario, Canada Debian GNU/Linux -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 12 16:00:03 2003 From: fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Fraser Campbell) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 11:00:03 -0500 Subject: OT: keyboard layouts In-Reply-To: <1071243114.4334.27.camel-0lXLkTl3c71ptQ/RaucIWavRY+knis1x5NbjCUgZEJk@public.gmane.org> References: <200312121006.40577.fraser@wehave.net> <1071243114.4334.27.camel@theconstruct.mineallmeyn.net> Message-ID: <200312121100.03830.fraser@wehave.net> On Friday 12 December 2003 10:31, Oliver Meyn wrote: > Trying not to support M$ whenever possible I bought the logitech version > and have been quite happy with it Good to know, I'd only ever seen the Microsoft versions. -- Fraser Campbell http://www.wehave.net/ Halton Hills, Ontario, Canada Debian GNU/Linux -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From taavi-LbuTpDkqzNzXI80/IeQp7B2eb7JE58TQ at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 12 16:20:22 2003 From: taavi-LbuTpDkqzNzXI80/IeQp7B2eb7JE58TQ at public.gmane.org (Taavi Burns) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 11:20:22 -0500 Subject: OT: keyboard layouts In-Reply-To: <200312121059.02760.fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org> References: <200312121006.40577.fraser@wehave.net> <20031212152111.GL2033@hatefulsheep> <200312121059.02760.fraser@wehave.net> Message-ID: <20031212162022.GO2033@hatefulsheep> On Fri, Dec 12, 2003 at 10:59:02AM -0500, Fraser Campbell wrote: > Are you suggesting I buy a regular split keyboard but tell the system that > it's dvorak? Glyphs on the keyboard are rather useful when you're still > learning the layout. While learning the layout myself, I printed out a diagram of a keyboard (colour coded for which keys are to be hit by which fingers) and put it under the monitor. You shouldn't ever be looking at the keyboard while typing. That's what the nubs on f and j and 5 (or d and k on mac keyboards) are for. :) > > http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/keyboards.htm > > http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/us_versions.htm > > Ahh, do I want the chair mounted evolution keyboard with built in > touchpad, or do I want the Professional Contoured Keyboard with foot > pedal, on the fly qwerty->dvorak switching, hmmm ... now do I want > to spent over 200 USD on a keyboard :-) Aye, that's the trick. :) -- taa /*eof*/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lloyd-fEEwcc3XMu8jODpR/OX0VQ at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 12 16:30:23 2003 From: lloyd-fEEwcc3XMu8jODpR/OX0VQ at public.gmane.org (Lloyd Budd) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 11:30:23 -0500 Subject: keyboard layouts In-Reply-To: <20031212102713.4d07d0a7.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <200312121006.40577.fraser@wehave.net> <20031212102713.4d07d0a7.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <7C094D1C-2CC0-11D8-8101-0003931BD222@foolswisdom.com> On 12-Dec-03, at 10:27, JoeHill wrote: > keyboard sits in a tray with a nice soft wrist support in front of it. Not wrist supports, wrist rests. I believe it is not advised to use it while typing. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 12 16:37:18 2003 From: fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Fraser Campbell) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 11:37:18 -0500 Subject: OT: keyboard layouts In-Reply-To: <20031212162022.GO2033-9xiANKxwco6iqb11nhpoTg@public.gmane.org> References: <200312121006.40577.fraser@wehave.net> <200312121059.02760.fraser@wehave.net> <20031212162022.GO2033@hatefulsheep> Message-ID: <200312121137.18446.fraser@wehave.net> On Friday 12 December 2003 11:20, Taavi Burns wrote: > > Ahh, do I want the chair mounted evolution keyboard with built in > > touchpad, or do I want the Professional Contoured Keyboard with foot > > pedal, on the fly qwerty->dvorak switching, hmmm ... now do I want > > to spent over 200 USD on a keyboard :-) > > Aye, that's the trick. :) Does anyone know of a store in the Toronto area that carries Kinesis or similar high-end keyboards? I'd really like to try-before-I-buy, $300+ for an unseen keyboard is a little much. -- Fraser Campbell http://www.wehave.net/ Halton Hills, Ontario, Canada Debian GNU/Linux -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 12 16:43:44 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 11:43:44 -0500 Subject: keyboard layouts In-Reply-To: <7C094D1C-2CC0-11D8-8101-0003931BD222-fEEwcc3XMu8jODpR/OX0VQ@public.gmane.org> References: <200312121006.40577.fraser@wehave.net> <20031212102713.4d07d0a7.joehill@sympatico.ca> <7C094D1C-2CC0-11D8-8101-0003931BD222@foolswisdom.com> Message-ID: <20031212114344.098dae5e.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Fri, 12 Dec 2003 11:30:23 -0500 Lloyd Budd wrote: > Not wrist supports, wrist rests. I believe it is not advised to use it > while typing. Rest, support, whatever. All I know is, I use one and I've never had one whit of strain, ache, or pain. -- JoeHill ++ ICQ # 280779813 Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "The free communication of ideas and opinions is one of the most precious of the rights of man."-- Declaration of the Rights of Man -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From alan-QVObF66B6qeOg/Yh5kgvkFaTQe2KTcn/ at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 12 16:50:15 2003 From: alan-QVObF66B6qeOg/Yh5kgvkFaTQe2KTcn/ at public.gmane.org (Alan Cohen) Date: 12 Dec 2003 11:50:15 -0500 Subject: SPAM dissemination (was Exim problem) Message-ID: <1071247815.4923.57.camel@tsx2> Problem solved. Recently I found that my server was being used to disseminate SPAM. I suspected my exim mail server was being used somehow as as open relay. >From mail server: telnet relay-test.mail-abuse.org 25 The results of more than a dozen tests appear in your telnet session. In my case, the results suggested that my server was not an open relay. A suggestion was made that my system had been hacked and that I should try tcpdump'ing on the firewall when the incursion was occurring, but something else looking suspicious. Exim's logs said these emails were originating from inside my server and that the user was "apache". hmmm... "apache" is the user that runs the apache web server... I examined both the time-stamped mail server logs and apache access logs focusing on the time of one of the email batches. At precisely that time, I saw a record in the apache access log that said a particular cgi program was accessed. The culprit -- that cgi program -- was found. Used "normally", that cgi program was harmless, however it was exploitable -- and it was being exploited. -- -------------------------------------- Please do not respond in HTML Alan Cohen alan-QVObF66B6qeOg/Yh5kgvkFaTQe2KTcn/@public.gmane.org voice: 416-783-9826 fax: 240-269-7457 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 12 16:50:55 2003 From: fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Fraser Campbell) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 11:50:55 -0500 Subject: keyboard layouts In-Reply-To: <7C094D1C-2CC0-11D8-8101-0003931BD222-fEEwcc3XMu8jODpR/OX0VQ@public.gmane.org> References: <200312121006.40577.fraser@wehave.net> <20031212102713.4d07d0a7.joehill@sympatico.ca> <7C094D1C-2CC0-11D8-8101-0003931BD222@foolswisdom.com> Message-ID: <200312121150.55672.fraser@wehave.net> On Friday 12 December 2003 11:30, Lloyd Budd wrote: > > keyboard sits in a tray with a nice soft wrist support in front of it. > > Not wrist supports, wrist rests. I believe it is not advised to use it > while typing. Whatever they may be called they help a lot. About 8 years ago I had a lump on the back of my left hand about 1/2 inch high, my right hand was painful as well. It was so bad that I was reduced to typing in a hunt-and-peck style using only my right index finger (using totally vertical keypress). I forced myself to type in that style for a few weeks, got a wrist rest and haven't had major problems since ... of course the pain comes back a bit whenever I go into prolonged periods of typing. -- Fraser Campbell http://www.wehave.net/ Halton Hills, Ontario, Canada Debian GNU/Linux -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 12 18:06:46 2003 From: henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org (Henry Spencer) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 13:06:46 -0500 (EST) Subject: OT: keyboard layouts In-Reply-To: <20031212102951.7dc5f9e4.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <20031212102951.7dc5f9e4.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, 12 Dec 2003, JoeHill wrote: > > I can type about 10WPM on a Dvorak layout (vs >70 on a qwerty), so I > > haven't exactly switched over myself... > > Isn't Dvorak supposed to speed up typing? It is *supposed* to, but no systematic test conducted by an unbiased experimenter has ever found more than a 5-10% improvement. (And you can get that sort of improvement with a Qwerty layout just by remapping the Return/Enter key to something you can hit without moving your hand off the home position.) All the claims of spectacular improvements seem to derive from trials run by Dvorak himself. Nobody has ever been able to reproduce those results. Beware of placebo effect. *Expecting* that typing on a Dvorak layout will feel better has a strong tendency to *make* it feel better. > I mean as opposed to qwerty, which was > originally intended to make typing slower, preventing fast typists from > outpacing the old typewriters. Nope, this is a myth. The early typewriters did have problems with jamming with fast typists, yes, but only if *adjacent keys* were hit in fast succession. The Qwerty layout was designed to put frequently-used keys far apart, to reduce jamming at high speed. It turns out that this actually *speeds up* typists, because it increases the probability that successive keys will alternate between hands. Henry Spencer henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jingsu-26n5VD7DAF2Tm46uYYfjYg at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 12 18:15:21 2003 From: jingsu-26n5VD7DAF2Tm46uYYfjYg at public.gmane.org (Jing Su) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 13:15:21 -0500 Subject: OT: keyboard layouts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > Isn't Dvorak supposed to speed up typing? I think that the true benefit of Dvorak is added comfort. As someone else mentioned before, Qwerty sets keys far apart to prevent adjacent jamming, which seems to also increase typing speed. I find that the effect of Dvorak is that it "load balances" the often used keys and reduces the number of "long jumps" your finger has to do (ie index finger travelling long distances to hit commonly used combos, like 'ny') -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From bonnie-grKYUO1WUpSaMJb+Lgu22Q at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 12 18:26:19 2003 From: bonnie-grKYUO1WUpSaMJb+Lgu22Q at public.gmane.org (misterbonnie) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 12:26:19 -0600 (CST) Subject: OT: keyboard layouts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 12 Dec 2003, Jing Su wrote: > > > Isn't Dvorak supposed to speed up typing? > > I think that the true benefit of Dvorak is added comfort. > As someone else mentioned before, Qwerty sets keys far apart to prevent > adjacent jamming, which seems to also increase typing speed. I find > that the effect of Dvorak is that it "load balances" the often used keys > and reduces the number of "long jumps" your finger has to do (ie index > finger travelling long distances to hit commonly used combos, like 'ny') > -- the other thing you might want to consider is how many other computers you use over the course of the day i probably alternate between around 10 workstations at home, work and other people's places... so even if dvorak were that awesome, knowing it too well would fuck you up when you go to use another machine... mister bonnie -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jingsu-26n5VD7DAF2Tm46uYYfjYg at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 12 18:30:52 2003 From: jingsu-26n5VD7DAF2Tm46uYYfjYg at public.gmane.org (Jing Su) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 13:30:52 -0500 Subject: OT: keyboard layouts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > the other thing you might want to consider is how many other computers you > use over the course of the day > > i probably alternate between around 10 workstations at home, > work and other people's places... so even if dvorak were that awesome, > knowing it too well would fuck you up when you go to use another > machine... I agree that if you use your dvorak keyboard only 10% of the time, then you'll only at best see a 10% improvement... But like playing a musical instrument, I personally find that I have no problem switching between dvorak and qwerty. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From taavi-LbuTpDkqzNzXI80/IeQp7B2eb7JE58TQ at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 12 18:38:26 2003 From: taavi-LbuTpDkqzNzXI80/IeQp7B2eb7JE58TQ at public.gmane.org (Taavi Burns) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 13:38:26 -0500 Subject: OT: keyboard layouts In-Reply-To: References: <20031212102951.7dc5f9e4.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <20031212183826.GR2033@hatefulsheep> On Fri, Dec 12, 2003 at 01:06:46PM -0500, Henry Spencer wrote: > It is *supposed* to, but no systematic test conducted by an unbiased > experimenter has ever found more than a 5-10% improvement. (And you can > get that sort of improvement with a Qwerty layout just by remapping the > Return/Enter key to something you can hit without moving your hand off the > home position.) The most important thing that both of us lack here are references. I encourage people who are interested to go and do some research. :) > Beware of placebo effect. *Expecting* that typing on a Dvorak layout will > feel better has a strong tendency to *make* it feel better. There are strong arguments that a Dvorak layout should feel better than qwerty regardless of speed. The most commonly used keys are in the home row, the second most commonly on the top row, and least common on the bottom row. This does indeed reduce the number of times your fingers have to move away from the neutral position. That's gotta be a win, eh? > Nope, this is a myth. The early typewriters did have problems with > jamming with fast typists, yes, but only if *adjacent keys* were hit in > fast succession. The Qwerty layout was designed to put frequently-used > keys far apart, to reduce jamming at high speed. It turns out that this > actually *speeds up* typists, because it increases the probability that > successive keys will alternate between hands. I'm not convinced that that is the case. Provided that common digraphs in English occur on the same row, I would see it being easier to coordinate the correct order of keystriking. Yes, Dvorak keys were laied out like that. That would be the point. I do find it hard to believe that there is NO improvement whatsoever from using a keyboard layout designed for use with electronic interfaces with careful attention to useability versus one that was actually designed to reduce jamming on old mechanical typewriters. Yes, that is very soft logic. I'm not saying either is "better", just that I find it likely that they are each better at what they were designed to be. -- taa /*eof*/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 12 19:13:29 2003 From: henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org (Henry Spencer) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 14:13:29 -0500 (EST) Subject: OT: keyboard layouts In-Reply-To: <20031212183826.GR2033-9xiANKxwco6iqb11nhpoTg@public.gmane.org> References: <20031212183826.GR2033@hatefulsheep> Message-ID: On Fri, 12 Dec 2003, Taavi Burns wrote: > > Beware of placebo effect. *Expecting* that typing on a Dvorak layout will > > feel better has a strong tendency to *make* it feel better. > > There are strong arguments that a Dvorak layout should feel better than > qwerty regardless of speed. The most commonly used keys are in the home > row, the second most commonly on the top row, and least common on the > bottom row. This does indeed reduce the number of times your fingers > have to move away from the neutral position. That's gotta be a win, eh? It seems likely, but (a) sometimes the real world delivers surprises, and (b) even assuming it is a win, that doesn't mean it's a *significant* win. Placebo effect is powerful, and it's the reason why tests of things like new drugs absolutely must be done as "double-blind" tests: neither the patients nor the experimenters know which patients are getting the real pills and which are getting the dummies, until the experiment is over and the sealed envelopes are opened. > I do find it hard to believe that there is NO improvement whatsoever > from using a keyboard layout designed for use with electronic interfaces > with careful attention to useability versus one that was actually designed > to reduce jamming on old mechanical typewriters. Uh, say what? Dvorak, like Qwerty, was designed for manual typewriters. (And to the extent that it had any significant advantage, it may have been reduction of muscle fatigue in that physically-more-demanding case.) The major experiments hyping its superiority were done during WW2, and the first unbiased trials -- which largely ended interest in it -- were done in the 50s. The only currently-extant keyboard layouts which can be said to have been designed for electronic interfaces are the split keyboards. The mere fact that Dvorak does not assign home or near-home positions to RETURN and BACKSPACE demonstrates clearly that it was not designed for electronic keyboards. Henry Spencer henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From adb-tlug-AbAJl/g/NLXk1uMJSBkQmQ at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 12 19:28:31 2003 From: adb-tlug-AbAJl/g/NLXk1uMJSBkQmQ at public.gmane.org (Anthony de Boer) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 14:28:31 -0500 Subject: M$ to license FAT In-Reply-To: ; from tim-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org on Tue, Dec 09, 2003 at 07:46:42PM -0500 References: <20031208192215.GE2033@hatefulsheep> Message-ID: <20031212142831.C25607@leftmind.net> Tim Writer wrote: > Taavi Burns writes: > > Most (all?) of the standard Flash memory devices these days have onboard > > controllers which can detect failing sectors in the flash memory, and will > > reroute data to spare sectors, much as HDs do these days. > > Are you sure? The JFFS2 folks don't seem to think so and anecdotal evidence > seems to bear me out. Compact Flash has onboard smarts to do wear-levelling, etc, and presents an IDE-compatible interface. JFFS2 is meant for vanilla flash, where you're getting directly at the stuff and have to implement all of that yourself. I can't speak for the other flavours of consumer-grade removable flash, but they'd be somewhere on the spectrum between those two. Leaving off the smarts will of course give you a smaller and cheaper device. -- Anthony de Boer -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 12 19:29:23 2003 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 14:29:23 -0500 Subject: OT: keyboard layouts In-Reply-To: References: <20031212183826.GR2033@hatefulsheep> Message-ID: <20031212192923.GA533@node1.opengeometry.net> On Fri, Dec 12, 2003 at 02:13:29PM -0500, Henry Spencer wrote: > Placebo effect is powerful, and it's the reason why tests of things like > new drugs absolutely must be done as "double-blind" tests: neither the > patients nor the experimenters know which patients are getting the real > pills and which are getting the dummies, until the experiment is over and > the sealed envelopes are opened. Those who died were given placebo, and those who got better were given real drug. Or, was it the other way around... :-) I've read it somewhere that the single most factor is the angle of wrist (ie. up and down angle). It should be straight. The angle of elbow or the side-to-side angle of wrist are less important. -- William Park, Open Geometry Consulting, Linux solution for data management and processing. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 12 20:48:51 2003 From: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 15:48:51 -0500 (EST) Subject: C considered harmful: was Debian attacker may have used new exploit In-Reply-To: <1070591400.12071.1.camel-eTg7c9BlEq95hrpxxnI5yFifK/mc/01a@public.gmane.org> References: <1070560563.10670.5.camel@rincewind.discworld> <200312041936.12145.fraser@wehave.net> <1070591400.12071.1.camel@rincewind.discworld> Message-ID: On Thu, 4 Dec 2003, Marcus Brubaker wrote: > Absolutely. I've written a number of "real" projects in Java. Further, > I use a number of applications that are written in Java. (E.G. PCGen) Some friends of mine run a company of 20 people writing solutions to real world problems (under contract) using java. They've been doing this for years. I've been really impressed by a lot of the stuff they've done. obLinux: They are really committed to OSS & Linux too. They've been using Linux desktops for development since the mid 90s. For most of its history the company had 1 MS-Windows licence for an accounting box. Even that may have changed by now, who knows :) Rob -- Robert Brockway B.Sc. email: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org, zzbrock at uqconnect.net Linux counter project ID #16440 (http://counter.li.org) "The earth is but one country and mankind its citizens" -Baha'u'llah -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 12 21:15:23 2003 From: henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org (Henry Spencer) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 16:15:23 -0500 (EST) Subject: OT: keyboard layouts In-Reply-To: <20031212192923.GA533-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20031212192923.GA533@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 12 Dec 2003, William Park wrote: > > Placebo effect is powerful, and it's the reason why tests of things like > > new drugs absolutely must be done as "double-blind" tests: neither the > > patients nor the experimenters know which patients are getting the real > > pills and which are getting the dummies, until the experiment is over and > > the sealed envelopes are opened. > > Those who died were given placebo, and those who got better were given > real drug. Or, was it the other way around... :-) Well, at least the large-scale experiments typically also have third-party monitors, who know which group is which and are watching for signs of strong adverse effects (death certainly qualifies :-)). This is why you occasionally hear of a clinical trial being halted early -- it means that the real-drug group was having a suspiciously large number of heart attacks or whatever, and the monitors sounded the alarm. Henry Spencer henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From wmcgilvery-6d3DWWOeJtE at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 12 23:38:38 2003 From: wmcgilvery-6d3DWWOeJtE at public.gmane.org (Wil McGilvery) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 18:38:38 -0500 Subject: Testing - no need to read Message-ID: <65B7B304AA3DE147BBD33938FE204E284A95A8@lynchmail.lynch.msft> Please ignore Regards, Wil McGilvery Manager Lynch Digital Media Inc 416-744-7949 416-716-3964 (cell) 1-866-314-4678 416-744-0406? FAX www.LynchDigital.com -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 12 23:45:39 2003 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 18:45:39 -0500 Subject: Testing - no need to read In-Reply-To: <65B7B304AA3DE147BBD33938FE204E284A95A8-49iW0tF5bQXl9+zcyUE9hx1TMoFmMu2o@public.gmane.org> References: <65B7B304AA3DE147BBD33938FE204E284A95A8@lynchmail.lynch.msft> Message-ID: <3FDA5323.1070002@rogers.com> Wil McGilvery wrote: > Please ignore Will do. ;-) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From marcus.brubaker-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 13 03:10:01 2003 From: marcus.brubaker-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Marcus Brubaker) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 22:10:01 -0500 Subject: OT: keyboard layouts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1071285001.2391.10.camel@rincewind.discworld> On Fri, 2003-12-12 at 16:15, Henry Spencer wrote: > On Fri, 12 Dec 2003, William Park wrote: > > > Placebo effect is powerful, and it's the reason why tests of things like > > > new drugs absolutely must be done as "double-blind" tests: neither the > > > patients nor the experimenters know which patients are getting the real > > > pills and which are getting the dummies, until the experiment is over and > > > the sealed envelopes are opened. > > > > Those who died were given placebo, and those who got better were given > > real drug. Or, was it the other way around... :-) > > Well, at least the large-scale experiments typically also have third-party > monitors, who know which group is which and are watching for signs of > strong adverse effects (death certainly qualifies :-)). This is why you > occasionally hear of a clinical trial being halted early -- it means that > the real-drug group was having a suspiciously large number of heart > attacks or whatever, and the monitors sounded the alarm. Actually, on occasion, long term studies are halted early for the exact opposite reason. In fact recently a 10 year study of a certain drug treatment on breast cancer was halted 6 years in so that those on the placebo could take the real treatment because the results were so positive. I forget the details anymore though. -- Marcus Brubaker -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From anton-F0u+EriZ6ihBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 13 03:23:51 2003 From: anton-F0u+EriZ6ihBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Anton Markov) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 22:23:51 -0500 Subject: Albatron motherboards Message-ID: <3FDA8647.70006@truxtar.com> Hello Everyone, Following my motherboard problems (See "What to do with kernel panics?"), I have decided to buy myself another motherboard (the one I got apparently supports FSB up to 400MHz; my P4 runs at 533MHz). I am looking at the Albatron PX845PEV-800 (or perhaps the Albatron PX865PE PRO II). I would like to know if anyone has had any good/bad experiences with these, as well as how compatible they are with Linux (I am going to do a search on that myself too, but I want a real-world opinion). The URLs for the details are: PX845PEV-800: PX865PE PRO II: (This one is sweet!) Thanks. -- Anton Markov <("anton" + "@" + "truxtar" + "." + "com")> GnuPGP Key fingerprint = 5546 A6E2 1FFB 9BB8 15C3 CE34 46B7 8D93 3AD1 44B4 "The difference between insanity and genius is measured only by success." - Some bad guy from 007 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 13 04:41:26 2003 From: phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org (Peter Hiscocks) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 23:41:26 -0500 Subject: OT: keyboard layouts In-Reply-To: <1071285001.2391.10.camel-eTg7c9BlEq95hrpxxnI5yFifK/mc/01a@public.gmane.org>; from marcus.brubaker-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org on Fri, Dec 12, 2003 at 10:10:01PM -0500 References: <1071285001.2391.10.camel@rincewind.discworld> Message-ID: <20031212234126.A3934@ee.ryerson.ca> I've been using the Dvorak layout since the early 70's. I'd been trying to learn to touch type using the Querty layout, without much success, and a friend (the same one who recommended the 3-wheeled Messerschmitt car ;) suggested Dvorak. The concept made sense to me, so I bought an SCM electric typewriter with the Dvorak layout. Needless to say, it was hard-coded. I was doing useful typing in a few hours. Once you learn the home row you can do a fair bit, and that's encouraging. The Dvorak training manuals were quite good. Then I got a Commodore PET computer and rewired the keyboard by cutting traces and adding jumpers with #30AWG wire. Nowadays I would reprogram the keyboard lookup table, but computers were still pretty mysterious at that point. For a number of years, I've been using a Keytronic keyboard which is switchable between Querty and Dvorak. They don't make it any more, apparently. These days, there is usually some sofware method of changing the configuration. In X for example, there is xdvorak. Even windows has methods of changing keyboard configuration to Dvorak. So if you're using a machine in an internet cafe you can still reconfigure the keyboard. (This causes no end of confusion of the computer goes in for service and the tech guy doesn't know about Dvorak. They figure the keyboard is defective.) My wife learned Dvorak at about the same time I did and she uses it without complaint on her Windows machine. I gave my daughter the option and she chose to learn Querty, figuring that she'd be using machines that could not easily be configured. But it took my daughter much longer to learn to touch-type. Personally, it's my opinion that it's gotta be easier on the hands to have the commonly used consonants and vowels in the home row. In Querty, the 'e' is on the top row, where you have to reach for it. Apparently IBM used to sponsor typing speed contests to promote their typewriters. One of Dvorak's claims was that IBM did not want to have to produce two layouts, so they opposed the Dvorak layout. When Dvorak typists began to clean up in the contests, IBM dropped their sponsorship. It would be interesting to have a modern-day speed contest between an expert Querty and Dvorak typist and see if there really is a consistent speed difference. As for RSI, I did have to deal with that at one point, and it's very scary indeed. Eventually I got it sorted out and yes, wrist position and height are very important. The key for me, were the upper back and shoulder stretching exercises which a sports medicine doctor/chiropracter prescribed. I have no idea why the upper back has such an effect on the wrists, but it seems to be important. Peter On Fri, Dec 12, 2003 at 10:10:01PM -0500, Marcus Brubaker wrote: > On Fri, 2003-12-12 at 16:15, Henry Spencer wrote: > > On Fri, 12 Dec 2003, William Park wrote: > > > > Placebo effect is powerful, and it's the reason why tests of things like > > > > new drugs absolutely must be done as "double-blind" tests: neither the > > > > patients nor the experimenters know which patients are getting the real > > > > pills and which are getting the dummies, until the experiment is over and > > > > the sealed envelopes are opened. > > > > > > Those who died were given placebo, and those who got better were given > > > real drug. Or, was it the other way around... :-) > > > > Well, at least the large-scale experiments typically also have third-party > > monitors, who know which group is which and are watching for signs of > > strong adverse effects (death certainly qualifies :-)). This is why you > > occasionally hear of a clinical trial being halted early -- it means that > > the real-drug group was having a suspiciously large number of heart > > attacks or whatever, and the monitors sounded the alarm. > > Actually, on occasion, long term studies are halted early for the exact > opposite reason. In fact recently a 10 year study of a certain drug > treatment on breast cancer was halted 6 years in so that those on the > placebo could take the real treatment because the results were so > positive. I forget the details anymore though. > > -- > Marcus Brubaker > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- Peter D. Hiscocks Department of Electrical and Computer Engineering Ryerson University, 350 Victoria Street, Toronto, Ontario, M5B 2K3, Canada Phone: (416) 979-5000 Ext 6109 Fax: (416) 979-5280 Email: phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org URL: http://www.ee.ryerson.ca/~phiscock -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From teddymills-VFlxZYho3OA at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 13 05:15:48 2003 From: teddymills-VFlxZYho3OA at public.gmane.org (Teddy Mills) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 00:15:48 -0500 Subject: Firewall script for NAT server to protect the smtp Message-ID: <000501c3c138$2c82e110$0301a8c0@amazon> Well I put my server behind a SmoothWall2.0 with a NAT address, (any I portforward the needed ports) but I still find I have to protect the SMTP 25 with this script. This statement in the script gives a chain/target/match error. /sbin/iptables -A INPUT -m state -p tcp --state ESTABLISHED,RELATED -j ACCEPT What is wrong with the above statement? [root-v+aXH1h/sVw at public.gmane.org scripts]# more firewall #!/bin/sh echo "FSNAT (Firewall for Server with NAT Address) starting..." # **************************************** # Flushing all chains and reset iptables # **************************************** /sbin/iptables -F /sbin/iptables -F INPUT /sbin/iptables -F OUTPUT /sbin/iptables -F FORWARD /sbin/iptables -X /sbin/iptables -Z # ********************************************** # DEFAULT POLICIES #*********************************************** echo DROP INPUT chain /sbin/iptables -P INPUT DROP echo DROP OUTPUT chain /sbin/iptables -P OUTPUT DROP echo ACCEPT FORWARD chain /sbin/iptables -P FORWARD ACCEPT # ********************************************** # drop these nutbars # ********************************************* echo Drop that spammer bitch from China 218.70.8.186 /sbin/iptables -A INPUT -s 218.70.8.186/24 -j DROP /sbin/iptables -A INPUT -s 218.70.0.0/24 -j DROP # *********************************************** # allow this traffic # *********************************************** echo accept packets from an already established TCP connection /sbin/iptables -A INPUT -m state -p tcp --state ESTABLISHED,RELATED -j ACCEPT echo allow everything on eth1 network /sbin/iptables -A INPUT -i eth1 -j ACCEPT /sbin/iptables -A OUTPUT -o eth1 -j ACCEPT /sbin/iptables -A FORWARD -i eth1 -j ACCEPT echo allow everything on the loopback interface /sbin/iptables -A INPUT -i lo -j ACCEPT /sbin/iptables -A OUTPUT -o lo -j ACCEPT /sbin/iptables -A FORWARD -i lo -j ACCEPT # **************************************************************** # ACCEPT THESE PACKETS # **************************************************************** echo allow INPUT eth1 only for ports 22 25 53 80 110 143 993 /sbin/iptables -A INPUT -p tcp -i eth1 --sport 22 -j ACCEPT /sbin/iptables -A INPUT -p tcp -i eth1 --sport 25 -j ACCEPT /sbin/iptables -A INPUT -p tcp -i eth1 --sport 53 -j ACCEPT /sbin/iptables -A INPUT -p udp -i eth1 --sport 53 -j ACCEPT /sbin/iptables -A INPUT -p tcp -i eth1 --sport 80 -j ACCEPT /sbin/iptables -A INPUT -p tcp -i eth1 --sport 110 -j ACCEPT /sbin/iptables -A INPUT -p tcp -i eth1 --sport 113 -j ACCEPT /sbin/iptables -A INPUT -p tcp -i eth1 --sport 143 -j ACCEPT /sbin/iptables -A INPUT -p tcp -i eth1 --sport 443 -j ACCEPT /sbin/iptables -A INPUT -p tcp -i eth1 --sport 993 -j ACCEPT # *************************************************************** # eth1 OUTPUT # *************************************************************** echo allow outgoing eth1 traffic only for ports 22 25 53 80 110 143 993 /sbin/iptables -A OUTPUT -p tcp -o eth1 --dport 22 -j ACCEPT /sbin/iptables -A OUTPUT -p tcp -o eth1 --dport 25 -j ACCEPT /sbin/iptables -A OUTPUT -p tcp -o eth1 --dport 53 -j ACCEPT /sbin/iptables -A OUTPUT -p udp -o eth1 --dport 53 -j ACCEPT /sbin/iptables -A OUTPUT -p tcp -o eth1 --dport 80 -j ACCEPT /sbin/iptables -A OUTPUT -p tcp -o eth1 --dport 110 -j ACCEPT /sbin/iptables -A OUTPUT -p tcp -o eth1 --dport 113 -j ACCEPT /sbin/iptables -A OUTPUT -p tcp -o eth1 --dport 143 -j ACCEPT /sbin/iptables -A OUTPUT -p tcp -o eth1 --dport 443 -j ACCEPT /sbin/iptables -A OUTPUT -p tcp -o eth1 --dport 993 -j ACCEPT # ********************************************************** # eth1 FORWARD incoming # default policy listed at top is ACCEPT. (this is a router) # ********************************************************** # ********************************************************** # eth1 FORWARD outgoing # default policy listed at top is ACCEPT. (this is a router) # ********************************************************** # ***************************************************** # Loading Iptable modules (enable if not kernel builtin) # ***************************************************** # /sbin/modprobe ip_tables # /sbin/modprobe ip_conntrack #Added this module # /sbin/modprobe ip_nat_ftp # /sbin/modprobe ip_conntrack_ftp # ***************************************** # Disabled rules # ***************************************** # echo Catchall In case a packet made it here, drop all other traffic. # /sbin/iptables -A FORWARD -j DROP # echo Drop any incoming SMTP packets # /sbin/iptables -A INPUT -p tcp -i ppp0 -s 0/0 --dport 25 -j DROP [root-v+aXH1h/sVw at public.gmane.org scripts]# --------------------------------------------------------------- teddy mills http://www.vger.ca VGER directives...To collect...all that is collectable. To sell...all that is saleable.To merchandise...all that is merchandisable. Family Guys, Quagmire "allllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll right" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From anton-F0u+EriZ6ihBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 13 05:25:21 2003 From: anton-F0u+EriZ6ihBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Anton Markov) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 00:25:21 -0500 Subject: OT: keyboard layouts In-Reply-To: <20031212234126.A3934-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w@public.gmane.org> References: <1071285001.2391.10.camel@rincewind.discworld> <20031212234126.A3934@ee.ryerson.ca> Message-ID: <3FDAA2C1.6010505@truxtar.com> I think the best test for Dvorak vs. Qwerty would be to have two people who have never used a keyboard (yes, there are such people) of about the same age, background, command of the english language, etc. to learn touch-typing (in say 1 month) and have periodic speed contests throughout the period. That would be a real un-bias (if there is such a thing) test. By the way, does anyone know a good typing-tutor style software for Linux that supports qwerty and dvorak. Any other keyboard layouts out there? Peter Hiscocks wrote: > Personally, it's my opinion that it's gotta be easier on the hands to have > the commonly used consonants and vowels in the home row. In Querty, the 'e' > is on the top row, where you have to reach for it. Apparently IBM used to > sponsor typing speed contests to promote their typewriters. One of Dvorak's > claims was that IBM did not want to have to produce two layouts, so they > opposed the Dvorak layout. When Dvorak typists began to clean up in the > contests, IBM dropped their sponsorship. It would be interesting to > have a modern-day speed contest between an expert Querty and Dvorak typist > and see if there really is a consistent speed difference. -- Anton Markov <("anton" + "@" + "truxtar" + "." + "com")> GnuPGP Key fingerprint = 5546 A6E2 1FFB 9BB8 15C3 CE34 46B7 8D93 3AD1 44B4 "The difference between insanity and genius is measured only by success." - Some bad guy from 007 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 13 05:35:41 2003 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 00:35:41 -0500 Subject: OT: keyboard layouts In-Reply-To: <20031212234126.A3934-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w@public.gmane.org> References: <1071285001.2391.10.camel@rincewind.discworld> <20031212234126.A3934@ee.ryerson.ca> Message-ID: <20031213053541.GA1868@node1.opengeometry.net> On Fri, Dec 12, 2003 at 11:41:26PM -0500, Peter Hiscocks wrote: > Personally, it's my opinion that it's gotta be easier on the hands to have > the commonly used consonants and vowels in the home row. In Querty, the 'e' > is on the top row, where you have to reach for it. Apparently IBM used to > sponsor typing speed contests to promote their typewriters. One of Dvorak's > claims was that IBM did not want to have to produce two layouts, so they > opposed the Dvorak layout. When Dvorak typists began to clean up in the > contests, IBM dropped their sponsorship. It would be interesting to > have a modern-day speed contest between an expert Querty and Dvorak typist > and see if there really is a consistent speed difference. Typing English essay and typing computer program are a little different. Also, Dvorak doesn't work for Vi users. Since I'm hardcore vi-guy (even my shell commandline is vi-mode), I'm stuck with Qwerty. -- William Park, Open Geometry Consulting, Linux solution for data management and processing. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 13 06:03:05 2003 From: henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org (Henry Spencer) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 01:03:05 -0500 (EST) Subject: OT: keyboard layouts In-Reply-To: <3FDAA2C1.6010505-F0u+EriZ6ihBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <3FDAA2C1.6010505@truxtar.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 13 Dec 2003, Anton Markov wrote: > I think the best test for Dvorak vs. Qwerty would be to have two people > who have never used a keyboard (yes, there are such people) of about the > same age, background, command of the english language, etc. to learn > touch-typing (in say 1 month) and have periodic speed contests > throughout the period. That would be a real un-bias (if there is such a > thing) test. More or less this test was done, with careful controls, in the 1950s by the US government's General Services Administration. They retrained existing typists rather than picking keyboard-naive people, but they were careful to keep it an equal competition -- for example, when the Dvorak typists got up to their previous speed level, all further training they got was matched by extra training for the non-retrained Qwerty control group. (Training and practice will improve typing speed, so you have to make sure both groups get similar levels of it. And you have to control carefully for individual differences in ability, which is one reason why it's convenient to choose people whose performance as typists is already somewhat calibrated. This test was generally much more carefully and fairly run than Dvorak's badly-slanted tests.) The Dvorak typists never did substantially better than the Qwerty group. That test largely ended interest in the Dvorak layout. Similar tests, on a smaller scale, have been done by modern ergonomics researchers. Same uninspiring results -- at most, a small advantage. Folks, this is not some unexplored mystery; such careful, fair trials have been done a number of times in the last 50 years. The only reason the issue keeps coming up is that True Believers in the Dvorak layout insist that all those negative results must be wrong. By the way, although the early typewriter layouts were not done with the benefit of modern human-factors knowledge, there *were* quite a variety of them -- Qwerty was far from the only choice -- and organized speed competitions were common and got serious attention from customers. One reason why Qwerty survived is that it consistently did fairly well in those. It *is* a reasonably good layout, if far from perfect. > Any other keyboard layouts out there? The Maltron keyboard really is what the Dvorak keyboard pretends to be -- a new keyboard layout designed for electronic keyboards and based on modern ergonomics. It is, alas, hard to find and expensive; it's mostly marketed to people with RSI and similar medical problems. Henry Spencer henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 13 06:04:13 2003 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 01:04:13 -0500 Subject: Exchange replacement, again... Message-ID: <3FDAABDD.6020102@alteeve.com> Hi all, I know this was talked about recently but for the life of me I couldn't find the old thread(s) anywhere... Forgive me for asking again. Can anyone recommend a method, how-to or general pointer to an application or collection of applications that would allow for providing similar services that Exchange does except on Linux? Obviously compatibility with MS Outlook would be nice however that is not a requirement is there is a windows client (Mozilla?) that can access these services. In fact, I would prefer the later option over trying to stay inter operable with MS. Essentially I need personal e-mail, private and shared contacts, shared scheduling and itineraries and so forth. I would like this to tie into Linux-based network user authentication. So far, I am thinking I will be using PAM for authentication, Samba (via PAM) for windows access and print serving (over CUPS) with an OpenLDAP database to store actual user data (authentication), e-mails, contact lists and so forth. Am I on the right track? Is there a canned or partially canned application already available? I am trying to stay as completely within the GPL as possible so I would like to avoid proprietary solutions (such as what Suse offers). Many thanks all! Madison -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From taavi-LbuTpDkqzNzXI80/IeQp7B2eb7JE58TQ at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 13 08:26:50 2003 From: taavi-LbuTpDkqzNzXI80/IeQp7B2eb7JE58TQ at public.gmane.org (Taavi Burns) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 03:26:50 -0500 Subject: OT: keyboard layouts In-Reply-To: <20031213053541.GA1868-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <1071285001.2391.10.camel@rincewind.discworld> <20031212234126.A3934@ee.ryerson.ca> <20031213053541.GA1868@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <20031213082650.GY2033@hatefulsheep> On Sat, Dec 13, 2003 at 12:35:41AM -0500, William Park wrote: > Typing English essay and typing computer program are a little different. > Also, Dvorak doesn't work for Vi users. Since I'm hardcore vi-guy (even > my shell commandline is vi-mode), I'm stuck with Qwerty. It works perfectly well. You just have to relearn the command keys. ;) -- taa /*eof*/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From taavi-LbuTpDkqzNzXI80/IeQp7B2eb7JE58TQ at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 13 08:30:07 2003 From: taavi-LbuTpDkqzNzXI80/IeQp7B2eb7JE58TQ at public.gmane.org (Taavi Burns) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 03:30:07 -0500 Subject: OT: keyboard layouts In-Reply-To: References: <3FDAA2C1.6010505@truxtar.com> Message-ID: <20031213083007.GZ2033@hatefulsheep> On Sat, Dec 13, 2003 at 01:03:05AM -0500, Henry Spencer wrote: > Similar tests, on a smaller scale, have been done by modern ergonomics > researchers. Same uninspiring results -- at most, a small advantage. But if it's a distinct, statistically valid advantage, is there any good reason to avoid learning, using, and/or promoting the use of a marginally superior layout? what does a Maltron layout look like? Is it even physically similar to the keyboards we use today? Perhaps Dvorak is a step in the right direction, if only as a stepping stone, showing peole that There Is More Than One Way To Do It. Don't forget that there are also left- and right-handed Dvorak layouts which I think would be unarguably superior for one-handed typists. They use four levels of letters, with the numbers all off to one side. -- taa /*eof*/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From mr.mcgregor-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 13 10:56:29 2003 From: mr.mcgregor-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (John McGregor) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 05:56:29 -0500 Subject: exchange replacement Message-ID: <3FDAF05D.8070100@sympatico.ca> I think what you want is Ximiam Connector. http://www.ximian.com/products/connector/ JMcG -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From gilh-bXRf4i9N8VRnz3GQr/xE2Q at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 13 12:05:24 2003 From: gilh-bXRf4i9N8VRnz3GQr/xE2Q at public.gmane.org (gilh-bXRf4i9N8VRnz3GQr/xE2Q at public.gmane.org) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 07:05:24 -0500 (EST) Subject: exchange replacement In-Reply-To: <3FDAF05D.8070100-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FDAF05D.8070100@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <33618.10.1.1.54.1071317124.squirrel@mail.technolog.ca> I think that Connector allows Evolution to work with Exchange as a client. Here's something that might fit the bill ... http://www.suse.com/us/business/products/openexchange/index.html or http://www.bynari.net/ Regards, Gil Hauer > I think what you want is Ximiam Connector. > > http://www.ximian.com/products/connector/ > > > JMcG > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cgow-FlpYSvOe4acWeH+WijV1tNBPR1lH4CV8 at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 13 14:33:06 2003 From: cgow-FlpYSvOe4acWeH+WijV1tNBPR1lH4CV8 at public.gmane.org (Chris Gow) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 09:33:06 -0500 Subject: Exchange replacement, again... In-Reply-To: <3FDAABDD.6020102-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <3FDAABDD.6020102@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <1071325954.2964.2.camel@tatooine.local> check out http://www.opengroupware.org It doesn't do mail, but all of the groupware functionality. It even has an Outlook plugin (not GPL'ed though). -- chris On Sat, 2003-12-13 at 01:04, Madison Kelly wrote: > Hi all, > > I know this was talked about recently but for the life of me I > couldn't find the old thread(s) anywhere... Forgive me for asking again. > > Can anyone recommend a method, how-to or general pointer to an > application or collection of applications that would allow for providing > similar services that Exchange does except on Linux? Obviously > compatibility with MS Outlook would be nice however that is not a > requirement is there is a windows client (Mozilla?) that can access > these services. In fact, I would prefer the later option over trying to > stay inter operable with MS. > > Essentially I need personal e-mail, private and shared contacts, > shared scheduling and itineraries and so forth. I would like this to tie > into Linux-based network user authentication. So far, I am thinking I > will be using PAM for authentication, Samba (via PAM) for windows access > and print serving (over CUPS) with an OpenLDAP database to store actual > user data (authentication), e-mails, contact lists and so forth. > > Am I on the right track? Is there a canned or partially canned > application already available? I am trying to stay as completely within > the GPL as possible so I would like to avoid proprietary solutions (such > as what Suse offers). > > Many thanks all! > > Madison > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 13 15:08:09 2003 From: cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org (cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 10:08:09 -0500 Subject: exchange replacement In-Reply-To: Message from John McGregor of "Sat, 13 Dec 2003 05:56:29 EST." <3FDAF05D.8070100-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FDAF05D.8070100@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <20031213150811.06D9C4479@cbbrowne.com> > I think what you want is Ximiam Connector. > > http://www.ximian.com/products/connector/ Ximian Connector allows you to connect Ximian Evolution to a Microsoft Exchange server. The point of the exercise was to _replace_ Microsoft Exchange with something that runs on Linux, not to replace the mail client with one that MANDATES buying Exchange from Microsoft. What you have just suggested gets suggested quite often, and I expect that there is someone at Microsoft laughing maniacally at this. "Someone else asked for an Exchange replacement, and was pointed to a product that will lead to them paying even more money to TWO vendors, one of them being US!!! BWAHAHAHAHAHA!" -- (format nil "~S@~S" "cbbrowne" "cbbrowne.com") http://www.ntlug.org/~cbbrowne/internet.html A cool feature of OOP is that the simplest examples are 500 lines. -- Peter Sestoft -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 13 15:07:19 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 10:07:19 -0500 Subject: sco.com right off the map In-Reply-To: <004f01c3bf89$109c4f50$0301a8c0-vAnPq90cUBg@public.gmane.org> References: <004f01c3bf89$109c4f50$0301a8c0@amazon> Message-ID: <20031213100719.7eadee1d.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 20:49:48 -0500 "Teddy Mills" wrote: > that old law about "an eye for an eye" leaves everybody blind. The time is > always right to do the right thing > .~ Martin Luther King Jr. ~ Seems that perhaps this "attack" maybe wasn't an attack at all. Of course, far be it from Darl McBride to *make anything up* or manipulate the media for the purposes of bolstering his "case". http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20031210163721614 -- JoeHill ++ ICQ # 280779813 Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "If those in charge of our society - politicians, corporate executives, and owners of press and television - can dominate our ideas, they will be secure in their power. They will not need soldiers patrolling the streets. We will control ourselves."-- Howard Zinn -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 13 16:06:40 2003 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 11:06:40 -0500 Subject: exchange replacement In-Reply-To: <20031213150811.06D9C4479-xzRQuAxiFLNWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org> References: <3FDAF05D.8070100@sympatico.ca> <20031213150811.06D9C4479@cbbrowne.com> Message-ID: <3FDB3910.9050807@alteeve.com> Hey, I made the same mistake when I first started looking. Be kind, huh! :) Madison cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org wrote: >>I think what you want is Ximiam Connector. >> >>http://www.ximian.com/products/connector/ > > > Ximian Connector allows you to connect Ximian Evolution to a Microsoft > Exchange server. > > The point of the exercise was to _replace_ Microsoft Exchange with > something that runs on Linux, not to replace the mail client with one > that MANDATES buying Exchange from Microsoft. > > What you have just suggested gets suggested quite often, and I expect > that there is someone at Microsoft laughing maniacally at this. > "Someone else asked for an Exchange replacement, and was pointed to a > product that will lead to them paying even more money to TWO vendors, > one of them being US!!! BWAHAHAHAHAHA!" > -- > (format nil "~S@~S" "cbbrowne" "cbbrowne.com") > http://www.ntlug.org/~cbbrowne/internet.html > A cool feature of OOP is that the simplest examples are 500 lines. > -- Peter Sestoft > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 13 16:18:30 2003 From: phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org (Peter Hiscocks) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 11:18:30 -0500 Subject: OT: keyboard layouts In-Reply-To: ; from henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg@public.gmane.org on Sat, Dec 13, 2003 at 01:03:05AM -0500 References: <3FDAA2C1.6010505@truxtar.com> Message-ID: <20031213111830.B15689@ee.ryerson.ca> Since this comes up from time to time (like most religious wars ;), there might be a web reference to the tests that Henry is referring to, done in 1950s by the US government's General Services Administration. Has anyone ever seen such a thing? > The Dvorak typists never did substantially better than the Qwerty group. > Similar tests, on a smaller scale, have been done by modern ergonomics > researchers. Same uninspiring results -- at most, a small advantage. Any reference for this? I can get most papers, however obscure, through our inter-library loan service at Ryerson. One criterion the GSA would apply to this test would be 'is it worthwhile to change our training materials and our typewriters to obtain this marginal advantage'? (I assume we're talking typewriters rather than computer keyboards in the 50's). So although there might be some benefit, it was not deemed worth the costs. For someone learning a keyboard on their own, the cost-benefit might be different. Further, I would assume this performance metric is 'speed'. It would be interesting to test for 'effort', but that's a lot more difficult to quantify. The other metric would be 'ease of learning', which would be relatively easy to measure. The nice thing about this issue in 2003 is that people are relatively free to choose. That wasn't true in the era of manual typewriters, when manufacturers generally produced only the Querty keyboard. Peter On Sat, Dec 13, 2003 at 01:03:05AM -0500, Henry Spencer wrote: > On Sat, 13 Dec 2003, Anton Markov wrote: > > I think the best test for Dvorak vs. Qwerty would be to have two people > > who have never used a keyboard (yes, there are such people) of about the > > same age, background, command of the english language, etc. to learn > > touch-typing (in say 1 month) and have periodic speed contests > > throughout the period. That would be a real un-bias (if there is such a > > thing) test. > > More or less this test was done, with careful controls, in the 1950s by > the US government's General Services Administration. They retrained > existing typists rather than picking keyboard-naive people, but they were > careful to keep it an equal competition -- for example, when the Dvorak > typists got up to their previous speed level, all further training they > got was matched by extra training for the non-retrained Qwerty control > group. (Training and practice will improve typing speed, so you have to > make sure both groups get similar levels of it. And you have to control > carefully for individual differences in ability, which is one reason why > it's convenient to choose people whose performance as typists is already > somewhat calibrated. This test was generally much more carefully and > fairly run than Dvorak's badly-slanted tests.) > > The Dvorak typists never did substantially better than the Qwerty group. > > That test largely ended interest in the Dvorak layout. > > Similar tests, on a smaller scale, have been done by modern ergonomics > researchers. Same uninspiring results -- at most, a small advantage. > > Folks, this is not some unexplored mystery; such careful, fair trials have > been done a number of times in the last 50 years. The only reason the > issue keeps coming up is that True Believers in the Dvorak layout insist > that all those negative results must be wrong. > > By the way, although the early typewriter layouts were not done with the > benefit of modern human-factors knowledge, there *were* quite a variety of > them -- Qwerty was far from the only choice -- and organized speed > competitions were common and got serious attention from customers. One > reason why Qwerty survived is that it consistently did fairly well in > those. It *is* a reasonably good layout, if far from perfect. > > > Any other keyboard layouts out there? > > The Maltron keyboard really is what the Dvorak keyboard pretends to be -- > a new keyboard layout designed for electronic keyboards and based on > modern ergonomics. It is, alas, hard to find and expensive; it's mostly > marketed to people with RSI and similar medical problems. > > Henry Spencer > henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- Peter D. Hiscocks Department of Electrical and Computer Engineering Ryerson University, 350 Victoria Street, Toronto, Ontario, M5B 2K3, Canada Phone: (416) 979-5000 Ext 6109 Fax: (416) 979-5280 Email: phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org URL: http://www.ee.ryerson.ca/~phiscock -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From efmccurdy-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 13 19:17:12 2003 From: efmccurdy-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (efmccurdy-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 14:17:12 -0500 Subject: Firewall script for NAT server to protect the smtp In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 13 Dec 2003 00:15:48 EST." <000501c3c138$2c82e110$0301a8c0-vAnPq90cUBg@public.gmane.org> References: <000501c3c138$2c82e110$0301a8c0@amazon> Message-ID: <200312131917.hBDJHDAe007863@CPE0004ac153a17-CM012059935850.cpe.net.cale.rogers.com> >>>>> "Teddy" == Teddy Mills writes: Teddy> This statement in the script gives a chain/target/match Teddy> error. /sbin/iptables -A INPUT -m state -p tcp --state Teddy> ESTABLISHED,RELATED -j ACCEPT Usually that means the the kernel does'nt have the neccessary ipfilter options set. I don't know how to get an error message that specifies exactly which options. I'd check the Netfilter Configuration section of the kernel config, eg CONFIG_IP_NF_MATCH_STATE. If they are configured as modules, you may need to use modprobe to load them earlier in the firewall script. Regards, Ed -- Edward F. McCurdy, | efmccurdy-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 13 19:46:12 2003 From: henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org (Henry Spencer) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 14:46:12 -0500 (EST) Subject: OT: keyboard layouts In-Reply-To: <20031213083007.GZ2033-9xiANKxwco6iqb11nhpoTg@public.gmane.org> References: <20031213083007.GZ2033@hatefulsheep> Message-ID: On Sat, 13 Dec 2003, Taavi Burns wrote: > > Similar tests, on a smaller scale, have been done by modern ergonomics > > researchers. Same uninspiring results -- at most, a small advantage. > > But if it's a distinct, statistically valid advantage, is there any good > reason to avoid learning, using, and/or promoting the use of a marginally > superior layout? Mainly, the very high costs of conversion, including a lengthy period of operating both. As with a number of other things, having everybody do things the same reasonably-good way is much more important than finding the absolutely optimal way. > what does a Maltron layout look like? Is it even physically similar to > the keyboards we use today? Only very loosely. It's closer to the "natural" keyboards. On each end, there is a sort of shallow bowl of finger keys. Below and inward from that, tilted backward, on each side is a small array of thumb keys (which includes assorted shifts and movement keys, the space key, and the E key). In the center above the thumb arrays is a numeric keypad -- accessible to either hand -- and some other odds and ends. It's a very sculptured layout with a very different key pattern, a full redesign rather than a trivial remapping of an ordinary keyboard. There's a picture at , although it's not quite large enough to make out all the key markings. (Google on "Maltron keyboard" for more references.) You might perhaps be able to come up with a vaguely Maltron-ish remapping of the standard layout. The thumb areas would be tricky. > Perhaps Dvorak is a step in the right direction, > if only as a stepping stone, showing peole that There Is More Than One > Way To Do It. The cost of conversion, however, suggests that at most one switchover is acceptable. > Don't forget that there are also left- and right-handed Dvorak layouts > which I think would be unarguably superior for one-handed typists. They > use four levels of letters, with the numbers all off to one side. concludes that unless a one-handed typist was previously a fast two-handed typist, the overwhelmingly best choice is one-handed typing on a standard Qwerty keyboard, simply because it avoids needing special accommodations for that one person. (And if he or she was a fast two-handed typist, there are one-handed variants of Qwerty which may be preferred.) In any case, if you're buying a custom keyboard, there are one-handed Maltron keyboards which are probably preferable over anything Dvorak. Henry Spencer henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From teddymills-VFlxZYho3OA at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 13 19:51:42 2003 From: teddymills-VFlxZYho3OA at public.gmane.org (Teddy Mills) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 14:51:42 -0500 Subject: OT: keyboard layouts References: Message-ID: <004201c3c1b2$88d07c50$0301a8c0@amazon> Imagine if your a Maltron sysadmin having to carry and connect that keyboard to every system you worked on. People think you were batty or something. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Henry Spencer" To: Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2003 2:46 PM Subject: Re: [TLUG]: OT: keyboard layouts > On Sat, 13 Dec 2003, Taavi Burns wrote: > > > Similar tests, on a smaller scale, have been done by modern ergonomics > > > researchers. Same uninspiring results -- at most, a small advantage. > > > > But if it's a distinct, statistically valid advantage, is there any good > > reason to avoid learning, using, and/or promoting the use of a marginally > > superior layout? > > Mainly, the very high costs of conversion, including a lengthy period of > operating both. As with a number of other things, having everybody do > things the same reasonably-good way is much more important than finding > the absolutely optimal way. > > > what does a Maltron layout look like? Is it even physically similar to > > the keyboards we use today? > > Only very loosely. It's closer to the "natural" keyboards. On each end, > there is a sort of shallow bowl of finger keys. Below and inward from > that, tilted backward, on each side is a small array of thumb keys (which > includes assorted shifts and movement keys, the space key, and the E key). > In the center above the thumb arrays is a numeric keypad -- accessible to > either hand -- and some other odds and ends. It's a very sculptured > layout with a very different key pattern, a full redesign rather than a > trivial remapping of an ordinary keyboard. There's a picture at > , although > it's not quite large enough to make out all the key markings. (Google > on "Maltron keyboard" for more references.) > > You might perhaps be able to come up with a vaguely Maltron-ish remapping > of the standard layout. The thumb areas would be tricky. > > > Perhaps Dvorak is a step in the right direction, > > if only as a stepping stone, showing peole that There Is More Than One > > Way To Do It. > > The cost of conversion, however, suggests that at most one switchover is > acceptable. > > > Don't forget that there are also left- and right-handed Dvorak layouts > > which I think would be unarguably superior for one-handed typists. They > > use four levels of letters, with the numbers all off to one side. > > concludes that > unless a one-handed typist was previously a fast two-handed typist, the > overwhelmingly best choice is one-handed typing on a standard Qwerty > keyboard, simply because it avoids needing special accommodations for that > one person. (And if he or she was a fast two-handed typist, there are > one-handed variants of Qwerty which may be preferred.) > > In any case, if you're buying a custom keyboard, there are one-handed > Maltron keyboards which are probably preferable over anything Dvorak. > > Henry Spencer > henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From kcozens-qazKcTl6WRFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 13 19:52:20 2003 From: kcozens-qazKcTl6WRFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Kevin Cozens) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 14:52:20 -0500 Subject: Exchange replacement, again... In-Reply-To: <3FDAABDD.6020102-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <3FDAABDD.6020102@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20031213144919.02244010@mail.interlog.com> At 01:04 AM 12/13/2003 -0500, Madison Kelly wrote: > Can anyone recommend a method, how-to or general pointer to an > application or collection of applications that would allow for providing > similar services that Exchange does except on Linux? Obviously > compatibility with MS Outlook would be nice however that is not a > requirement is there is a windows client (Mozilla?) that can access these > services. A Linux-based replacement for Exchange has been done. It was described in an issue of Linux Journal within the past year. I don't remember the specific issue off-hand. The article explains what was done and may have links to what you need to set it up. Cheers! Kevin. (http://www.interlog.com/~kcozens/) Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172 |"What are we going to do today, Borg?" E-mail:kcozens at interlog dot com|"Same thing we always do, Pinkutus: Packet:ve3syb-XXPEJ3/fxIc at public.gmane.org#con.on.ca.na| Try to assimilate the world!" #include | -Pinkutus & the Borg -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 13 21:06:25 2003 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 16:06:25 -0500 Subject: OT: keyboard layouts In-Reply-To: <20031213082650.GY2033-9xiANKxwco6iqb11nhpoTg@public.gmane.org> References: <1071285001.2391.10.camel@rincewind.discworld> <20031212234126.A3934@ee.ryerson.ca> <20031213053541.GA1868@node1.opengeometry.net> <20031213082650.GY2033@hatefulsheep> Message-ID: <20031213210625.GA448@node1.opengeometry.net> On Sat, Dec 13, 2003 at 03:26:50AM -0500, Taavi Burns wrote: > On Sat, Dec 13, 2003 at 12:35:41AM -0500, William Park wrote: > > Typing English essay and typing computer program are a little different. > > Also, Dvorak doesn't work for Vi users. Since I'm hardcore vi-guy (even > > my shell commandline is vi-mode), I'm stuck with Qwerty. > > It works perfectly well. You just have to relearn the command keys. ;) That's what I mean. 'hjkl' keys are all over the place. -- William Park, Open Geometry Consulting, Linux solution for data management and processing. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From taavi-LbuTpDkqzNzXI80/IeQp7B2eb7JE58TQ at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 13 21:12:26 2003 From: taavi-LbuTpDkqzNzXI80/IeQp7B2eb7JE58TQ at public.gmane.org (Taavi Burns) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 16:12:26 -0500 Subject: OT: keyboard layouts In-Reply-To: <20031213210625.GA448-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <1071285001.2391.10.camel@rincewind.discworld> <20031212234126.A3934@ee.ryerson.ca> <20031213053541.GA1868@node1.opengeometry.net> <20031213082650.GY2033@hatefulsheep> <20031213210625.GA448@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <20031213211226.GD2033@hatefulsheep> On Sat, Dec 13, 2003 at 04:06:25PM -0500, William Park wrote: > > > Also, Dvorak doesn't work for Vi users. Since I'm hardcore vi-guy (even > > > my shell commandline is vi-mode), I'm stuck with Qwerty. > > > > It works perfectly well. You just have to relearn the command keys. ;) > > That's what I mean. 'hjkl' keys are all over the place. Or you could probably remap them to be in the correct places. -- taa /*eof*/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 13 21:12:36 2003 From: cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org (cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 16:12:36 -0500 Subject: Exchange replacement, again... In-Reply-To: Message from Kevin Cozens of "Sat, 13 Dec 2003 14:52:20 EST." <5.2.1.1.0.20031213144919.02244010-Nf8GSVjHSL5zk1aGpazrEgC/G2K4zDHf@public.gmane.org> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20031213144919.02244010@mail.interlog.com> Message-ID: <20031213211237.A4C2B3FFA@cbbrowne.com> > At 01:04 AM 12/13/2003 -0500, Madison Kelly wrote: > > Can anyone recommend a method, how-to or general pointer to an > > application or collection of applications that would allow for providing > > similar services that Exchange does except on Linux? Obviously > > compatibility with MS Outlook would be nice however that is not a > > requirement is there is a windows client (Mozilla?) that can access these > > services. > > A Linux-based replacement for Exchange has been done. It was described in > an issue of Linux Journal within the past year. I don't remember the > specific issue off-hand. The article explains what was done and may have > links to what you need to set it up. The project site is thus: The server combines: OpenLDAP (to store authentication information) PostFIX (MTA) Cyrus IMAP (IMAP server) Apache (for WEBDAV, administration, and, soon, webmail) ProFTPd (for upload of busy/free info) SASL (to perform authentication) The client consists basically of KMail + Kontact; calendar management comes in somewhere; I'm not certain precisely where. (The authoritative documentation is in German, and my German is very weak...) While the current client software was written for KDE, nothing would stop someone from implementing code for the corresponding GNOME applications to have them "play well" with the pretty-standard Kroupware server components. Ditto for Mozilla. -- If this was helpful, rate me http://cbbrowne.com/info/emacs.html Why don't sheep shrink when it rains? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From taavi-LbuTpDkqzNzXI80/IeQp7B2eb7JE58TQ at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 13 21:27:16 2003 From: taavi-LbuTpDkqzNzXI80/IeQp7B2eb7JE58TQ at public.gmane.org (Taavi Burns) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 16:27:16 -0500 Subject: OT: keyboard layouts In-Reply-To: References: <20031213083007.GZ2033@hatefulsheep> Message-ID: <20031213212716.GE2033@hatefulsheep> On Sat, Dec 13, 2003 at 02:46:12PM -0500, Henry Spencer wrote: > Mainly, the very high costs of conversion, including a lengthy period of > operating both. As with a number of other things, having everybody do > things the same reasonably-good way is much more important than finding > the absolutely optimal way. Agreed. But at what point do the long-term benefits of that marginal improvement overcome the initial cost of switching? If we're still all using qwerty in 1000 years, might it not be better to deal with 10 years of confusion now, even if just for an extra 1%? Over 1000 years, 1% is a lot of work. > > what does a Maltron layout look like? Is it even physically similar to > > the keyboards we use today? > > Only very loosely. It's closer to the "natural" keyboards. On each end, > there is a sort of shallow bowl of finger keys. Below and inward from > that, tilted backward, on each side is a small array of thumb keys (which > includes assorted shifts and movement keys, the space key, and the E key). That sounds a lot like one of the Kinesis keyboards. > You might perhaps be able to come up with a vaguely Maltron-ish remapping > of the standard layout. The thumb areas would be tricky. It's still a qwerty, though. I don't see how a logical remapping of a standard keyboard to some approximation of that would be of any use. > The cost of conversion, however, suggests that at most one switchover is > acceptable. You're saying that no switchover (to Dvoark) is acceptable. How much better does something have to be for it to be worth it? > concludes that > unless a one-handed typist was previously a fast two-handed typist, the > overwhelmingly best choice is one-handed typing on a standard Qwerty > keyboard, simply because it avoids needing special accommodations for that > one person. (And if he or she was a fast two-handed typist, there are > one-handed variants of Qwerty which may be preferred.) > > In any case, if you're buying a custom keyboard, there are one-handed > Maltron keyboards which are probably preferable over anything Dvorak. The beautiful thing about the Dvorak is that you DON'T need to go out and buy anything special. Windows can be configured to switch between qwerty and Dvorak using ALT-LEFTSHIFT. Does it get any simpler than that? I'm pretty sure that KDE can do things as simply as that, too, as should any other properly hotkeyed wm. Any public terminal will have the keys clearly labeled if it cannot be remapped. I do believe that someone else mentioned that he has few problems switching between using a Dvorak and qwerty layout, making the analogy to the different fingerings required by people who play multiple musical instruments. Anecdotal evidence for sure, but then I don't buy the reasons for not using a one-handed Dvorak in the case of a physical disability. Yes, I'm a geek and a musician and have an Engineering degree. I understand that I find joy in the journey at least as much as the destination, and that's not the case for most people who just want to get the job done. But if other people don't care, who will? Should I go install Windows? -- taa /*eof*/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 13 22:24:20 2003 From: henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org (Henry Spencer) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 17:24:20 -0500 (EST) Subject: OT: keyboard layouts In-Reply-To: <20031213212716.GE2033-9xiANKxwco6iqb11nhpoTg@public.gmane.org> References: <20031213212716.GE2033@hatefulsheep> Message-ID: On Sat, 13 Dec 2003, Taavi Burns wrote: > > Mainly, the very high costs of conversion, including a lengthy period of > > operating both... > > Agreed. But at what point do the long-term benefits of that marginal > improvement overcome the initial cost of switching? Possibly never, if the long-term benefits are small, the assumptions they rest on are uncertain (will we still be using keyboards at all in 100 years?), and current users would get little benefit in return for the pain. We routinely live with *many* decisions that are known to be suboptimal but for which it just isn't worth switching. For example, there is general agreement that a somewhat wider railroad gauge (spacing between the two rails) would be superior... but it's not going to happen, given how many railyards, bridges, tunnels, etc. would have to be rebuilt. Note that if a keyboard switch *was* undertaken, something like the Maltron keyboard almost certainly would be the new keyboard of choice. Dvorak's only virtue, in comparison, is physical compatibility with Qwerty, and physical compatibility isn't that important in such a major change: retraining costs totally dominate equipment costs, most keyboards have a limited working life anyway, Maltron keyboards would not be expensive if made in really large numbers, and if we're going through the pain of switching, we should go all the way to the optimal solution rather than settling for a halfway point. Almost all the "we should switch" arguments also support "switch to Maltron, not Dvorak". > > You might perhaps be able to come up with a vaguely Maltron-ish remapping > > of the standard layout. The thumb areas would be tricky. > > It's still a qwerty, though. I don't see how a logical remapping of > a standard keyboard to some approximation of that would be of any use. If it's of no use, then Dvorak is of no use. The Maltron key layout was designed with far more complete knowledge of typing ergonomics etc. than the Dvorak layout; if you could shoehorn some approximation of it into a Qwerty-based physical layout (which I'm unsure of), the result is quite likely to be better than Dvorak. > > The cost of conversion, however, suggests that at most one switchover is > > acceptable. > > You're saying that no switchover (to Dvoark) is acceptable. How much > better does something have to be for it to be worth it? Preferably a factor of ten. It has to be at least a factor of two to get people excited. 10% just isn't enough when there are major compatibility issues. > The beautiful thing about the Dvorak is that you DON'T need to go out > and buy anything special. Windows can be configured to switch between > qwerty and Dvorak using ALT-LEFTSHIFT. Does it get any simpler than that? That's not "simple", not if you have to configure every machine in a company to do that. There's a big difference between what's reasonable for an organized conversion campaign, and what's reasonable for one person with unusual needs/preferences. Henry Spencer henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From taavi-LbuTpDkqzNzXI80/IeQp7B2eb7JE58TQ at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 13 23:15:34 2003 From: taavi-LbuTpDkqzNzXI80/IeQp7B2eb7JE58TQ at public.gmane.org (Taavi Burns) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 18:15:34 -0500 Subject: OT: keyboard layouts In-Reply-To: References: <20031213212716.GE2033@hatefulsheep> Message-ID: <20031213231534.GF2033@hatefulsheep> On Sat, Dec 13, 2003 at 05:24:20PM -0500, Henry Spencer wrote: > We routinely live with *many* decisions that are known to be suboptimal > but for which it just isn't worth switching. For example, there is > general agreement that a somewhat wider railroad gauge (spacing between > the two rails) would be superior... but it's not going to happen, given > how many railyards, bridges, tunnels, etc. would have to be rebuilt. There's a funny story about why railroad tracks are as far apart as they are...it involved the width of a horse's ass... > have a limited working life anyway, Maltron keyboards would not be > expensive if made in really large numbers, and if we're going through the > pain of switching, we should go all the way to the optimal solution rather > than settling for a halfway point. Almost all the "we should switch" > arguments also support "switch to Maltron, not Dvorak". Indeed, I see that point. Given that Maltron uses the basic qwerty letter layout, it's probably easier for someone to switch . > > It's still a qwerty, though. I don't see how a logical remapping of > > a standard keyboard to some approximation of that would be of any use. > > If it's of no use, then Dvorak is of no use. The Maltron key layout was > designed with far more complete knowledge of typing ergonomics etc. than Question: who made the Maltron such that it's that much superior to a Dvorak layout? Has anyone tried using the physical Maltron keyboard with a Dvorak letter mapping? > the Dvorak layout; if you could shoehorn some approximation of it into a > Qwerty-based physical layout (which I'm unsure of), the result is quite > likely to be better than Dvorak. I'm saying that after looking at a picture of the Maltron keyboard, I don't think there's any way to convert a standard keyboard short of a hacksaw and soldering iron. The physical metaphor is wrong. > > You're saying that no switchover (to Dvoark) is acceptable. How much > > better does something have to be for it to be worth it? > > Preferably a factor of ten. It has to be at least a factor of two to get > people excited. 10% just isn't enough when there are major compatibility > issues. Noting that the compatibility issue is a human one. The machine can trivially remap the keyboard's logical layout. > > and buy anything special. Windows can be configured to switch between > > qwerty and Dvorak using ALT-LEFTSHIFT. Does it get any simpler than that? > > That's not "simple", not if you have to configure every machine in a > company to do that. There's a big difference between what's reasonable > for an organized conversion campaign, and what's reasonable for one person > with unusual needs/preferences. Most large organisations would be using some form of imaging anyway. It's trivial to ensure that the correct keyboard definition files exist, and are easily available for use. On a slightly divergent note, I'm still quite perplexed as to why having the most commonly typed letter _not_ on the home row is not such a performance hit as one would expect. Neverminding that the studies you cite say that there's negligible improvement, I'm quite curious as to why that is. -- taa /*eof*/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 13 23:57:47 2003 From: henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org (Henry Spencer) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 18:57:47 -0500 (EST) Subject: OT: keyboard layouts In-Reply-To: <20031213231534.GF2033-9xiANKxwco6iqb11nhpoTg@public.gmane.org> References: <20031213231534.GF2033@hatefulsheep> Message-ID: On Sat, 13 Dec 2003, Taavi Burns wrote: > > ...Almost all the "we should switch" > > arguments also support "switch to Maltron, not Dvorak". > > Indeed, I see that point. Given that Maltron uses the basic qwerty > letter layout... Uh, come again? It most certainly doesn't. The home row, for example, is ANISF DTHOR, with E on the left thumb and space on the right thumb. Some Maltron keyboards do come with a Qwerty mode as well, but that's explicitly a compatibility kludge. (Note, keyboards shaped vaguely like the Maltron keyboard are not necessarily Maltron keyboards.) > Question: who made the Maltron such that it's that much superior to > a Dvorak layout? Has anyone tried using the physical Maltron keyboard > with a Dvorak letter mapping? Why would you bother? Use the Maltron shape with the Maltron layout. > > the Dvorak layout; if you could shoehorn some approximation of it into a > > Qwerty-based physical layout (which I'm unsure of), the result is quite > > likely to be better than Dvorak. > > I'm saying that after looking at a picture of the Maltron keyboard, > I don't think there's any way to convert a standard keyboard short of > a hacksaw and soldering iron. The physical metaphor is wrong. Correct, but that's backwards from what I was suggesting, which is adapting the Maltron layout to the standard physical shape. I'm not sure it is reasonably possible, mind you, because of the thumb problem. > > Preferably a factor of ten. It has to be at least a factor of two to get > > people excited. 10% just isn't enough when there are major compatibility > > issues. > > Noting that the compatibility issue is a human one. The machine can > trivially remap the keyboard's logical layout. True, but so what? The human issue is a large one, actually a bigger barrier than a hardware issue would be. > On a slightly divergent note, I'm still quite perplexed as to why > having the most commonly typed letter _not_ on the home row is not > such a performance hit as one would expect. Note that the most commonly typed *key* is space, which has a whole thumb dedicated to it in either Qwerty or Dvorak, and is in the home position for that thumb in Maltron. That said, yes, E is the commonest letter and it's not in the home row, but only about one character in every ten is an E, so by itself it does not make a huge difference. And Qwerty does put it on a strong finger, and in a location where it's not a long reach. (Maltron's E on the left thumb is clearly better, mind you...) > Neverminding that > the studies you cite say that there's negligible improvement, I'm > quite curious as to why that is. Basically, because the Qwerty layout is not a bad one (for an electronic keyboard -- some of its problems, like the assignment of A and the shifts to the little fingers, loom larger on manual typewriters), and the improvements to be had by rearranging it simply aren't huge. Henry Spencer henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 14 00:32:02 2003 From: fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Fraser Campbell) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 19:32:02 -0500 Subject: OT: keyboard layouts In-Reply-To: <20031213111830.B15689-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w@public.gmane.org> References: <3FDAA2C1.6010505@truxtar.com> <20031213111830.B15689@ee.ryerson.ca> Message-ID: <200312131932.02875.fraser@wehave.net> On December 13, 2003 11:18 am, Peter Hiscocks wrote: > Further, I would assume this performance metric is 'speed'. It would be > interesting to test for 'effort', but that's a lot more difficult to > quantify. The other metric would be 'ease of learning', which would be > relatively easy to measure. I was mostly interested in dvorak because of it's supposed reduction in fatigue. I've just remapped my keyboard to the dvorak layout and while my typing speed is drammatically slower I'm not finding the adaptation too difficult. I've done about half of an online typing tutor and I'm finding it pretty easy. If I like it (or can stand it) for a few weeks perhaps I'll get up to speed. -- Fraser Campbell http://www.wehave.net/ Georgetown, Ontario, Canada Debian GNU/Linux -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 14 00:43:47 2003 From: davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (David J Patrick) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 19:43:47 -0500 Subject: ZeroInstall; application installallation Nirvana ? Message-ID: <3FDBB243.3030904@sympatico.ca> I just followed an osnews.com story and discovered ZeroInstall (http://zero-install.sourceforge.net/) I'm /floored/ by the implications. Does this not look like THE most brilliant approach to software availability ? ..or do I need more sleep ? djp -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From legrady-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 14 01:12:53 2003 From: legrady-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Tom Legrady) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 20:12:53 -0500 Subject: ZeroInstall; application installallation Nirvana ? In-Reply-To: <3FDBB243.3030904-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FDBB243.3030904@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <3FDBB915.3020801@rogers.com> It's either brilliant or there's something missing. I like the implications for an xterm-type machine. Have some important things happen on a central server, mundane stuff can run on the terminal, software which is used gets cached locally. David J Patrick wrote: > I just followed an osnews.com story and discovered ZeroInstall > (http://zero-install.sourceforge.net/) > I'm /floored/ by the implications. > Does this not look like THE most brilliant approach to software > availability ? > ..or do I need more sleep ? > djp > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 14 01:23:49 2003 From: davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (David J Patrick) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 20:23:49 -0500 Subject: ZeroInstall; application installallation Nirvana ? In-Reply-To: <3FDBB915.3020801-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <3FDBB243.3030904@sympatico.ca> <3FDBB915.3020801@rogers.com> Message-ID: <3FDBBBA5.60208@sympatico.ca> Tom Legrady wrote: > It's either brilliant or there's something missing. > > I like the implications for an xterm-type machine. Have some important > things happen on a central server, mundane stuff can run on the > terminal, software which is used gets cached locally. > > David J Patrick wrote: > >> I just followed an osnews.com story and discovered ZeroInstall >> (http://zero-install.sourceforge.net/) >> I'm /floored/ by the implications. >> Does this not look like THE most brilliant approach to software >> availability ? >> ..or do I need more sleep ? >> djp >> Use a server for the core stuff, sure, but why limit it ? A network filesystem might negate the need to even think about software installation, or versions. The logical extension (a fully cached-on-demand OS) with a decent network connection and any old local, bootable media (USB key, CDR) might make Knoppix look old fasioned! -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From taavi-LbuTpDkqzNzXI80/IeQp7B2eb7JE58TQ at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 14 05:44:05 2003 From: taavi-LbuTpDkqzNzXI80/IeQp7B2eb7JE58TQ at public.gmane.org (Taavi Burns) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 00:44:05 -0500 Subject: OT: keyboard layouts In-Reply-To: References: <20031213231534.GF2033@hatefulsheep> Message-ID: <20031214054405.GH2033@hatefulsheep> On Sat, Dec 13, 2003 at 06:57:47PM -0500, Henry Spencer wrote: > > Indeed, I see that point. Given that Maltron uses the basic qwerty > > letter layout... > > Uh, come again? It most certainly doesn't. The home row, for example, > is ANISF DTHOR, with E on the left thumb and space on the right thumb. OH. You see, the picture that you linked to was of a Maltron-qwerty hybrid, so I assumed that it was the physical thing only. Wrong picture, and a poor assumption. :) > Why would you bother? Use the Maltron shape with the Maltron layout. Indeed, I wholeheartedly agree (now that I have it straight). :) > Correct, but that's backwards from what I was suggesting, which is > adapting the Maltron layout to the standard physical shape. I'm not sure > it is reasonably possible, mind you, because of the thumb problem. Yeah, it's all the fault of that fat-ass spacebar... > True, but so what? The human issue is a large one, actually a bigger > barrier than a hardware issue would be. This tends to depend who you talk to. For a large organisation the people-training costs do tend to outstrip the cost of new keyboards. To the hobbyist, though, the time spent learning something is more than half the fun, and hardware costs real money. > Basically, because the Qwerty layout is not a bad one (for an electronic > keyboard -- some of its problems, like the assignment of A and the shifts > to the little fingers, loom larger on manual typewriters), and the > improvements to be had by rearranging it simply aren't huge. I wonder if any proper studies have been done regarding the incidence of RSS relative to use of the different layouts. From the sounds of it the Maltron would be the culmination of such research. Too bad it's not more publicised. The ergonomics of the chair, desk, and monitor probably play a much larger role anyway for most people, and are really easy to fix. I'm glad we got that all sorted out. :) -- taa /*eof*/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From mr6re9-mI4xJ4qlgtBiLUuM0BA3LQ at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 14 11:15:04 2003 From: mr6re9-mI4xJ4qlgtBiLUuM0BA3LQ at public.gmane.org (GDHough) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 06:15:04 -0500 Subject: [sumthin] In-Reply-To: <20031212072909.69bcd68d.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <200312120721.15510.mr6re9@execulink.com> <20031212072909.69bcd68d.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <200312140615.04319.mr6re9@execulink.com> On Friday 12 December 2003 07:29, JoeHill wrote: > On Fri, 12 Dec 2003 07:21:15 -0500 > > GDHough wrote: > > Jan 19 will be my Apache's one year birthday. In that time I've learned > > much about running a webserver on Linux. One thing I've seen many times > > over are GET's for /sumthin/. I don't GET it? Why /sumthin/ and not just > > /? Is this a way to grab banners, 404's? > > > > Does anyone ever put something in /sumthin/? > I wanted to see what would happen if I honored requests for some of the winserver exploits. One example is I created the text file /scripts/nsiislog.dll. The text in the file is actually a record of all GET /scripts/nsiislog.dll requests. Once a week I grep | cat >> to this file. I learned that most tools (worms) scanning for this file limit the bytes to 12960-13068. I deduce that those who accepted the entire file were scanning manually with a user enabled keyboard. So what harm can there be in setting an index.html inside /sumthin/? ;-) I get far fewer requests for /sumthin/ than anything else I currently play with. I would like to explore the ramifications of utilizing this particularly regular request. I just wanted to see if there was sumthin to it before I create the index and special links. Thanks, farmer6re9 > I was curious myself, so I did a little google.ca/linux and lo and behold: > > "This looks to be a banner grabbing attempt on your webservers. Alot of > scanners/worms will do this in an attempt to find out what type of web > server you are running and compare it against a list of vulnerable servers > for some particular exploit. The `"/sumthin" is placed within the GET > command to trigger a 404 error, which in turn reveals valuable information > about your server back the requestor. If the information returned by your > server is useful to the scanner/worm you may see other exploits in the near > future targeted towards your box." -- Eating Crow is better with MyCrowSauce -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 14 11:25:27 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 06:25:27 -0500 Subject: ZeroInstall; application installallation Nirvana ? In-Reply-To: <3FDBB243.3030904-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FDBB243.3030904@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <20031214062527.4b3ec0ec.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Sat, 13 Dec 2003 19:43:47 -0500 David J Patrick wrote: > Does this not look like THE most brilliant approach to software > availability ? This is actually one way that the ROX desktop can be installed. Thomas Leonard, the developer, has been using this system for months now. From what I see on the ROX lists, it's very popular. Don't have to worry about this dependency or that library, it's all on the network. Never tried it m'self...strange combo...anarchist control freak ;-) -- JoeHill ++ ICQ # 280779813 Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "There are three side effects of acid: enhanced long-term memory, decreased short-term memory, and I forget the third."-- Timothy Leary -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 14 11:45:37 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 06:45:37 -0500 Subject: [sumthin] In-Reply-To: <200312140615.04319.mr6re9-mI4xJ4qlgtBiLUuM0BA3LQ@public.gmane.org> References: <200312120721.15510.mr6re9@execulink.com> <20031212072909.69bcd68d.joehill@sympatico.ca> <200312140615.04319.mr6re9@execulink.com> Message-ID: <20031214064537.051413c1.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Sun, 14 Dec 2003 06:15:04 -0500 GDHough wrote: > So what harm can there be in setting an index.html inside /sumthin/? ;-) > > I get far fewer requests for /sumthin/ than anything else I currently play > with. I would like to explore the ramifications of utilizing this > particularly regular request. I just wanted to see if there was sumthin to it > before I create the index and special links. Well, since they're lookin' for nothin', and, quelle surprise, gettin' sumthin', why not make it fun (for you)? I know there's a rewrite rule out there somewhere for Code Red that crashes the offending host. I'm not suggesting you violate the *law* or anything, but if you were to put an index.php that contained code which, say, displayed their IP, the name of their ISP, what OS they were running, etc. and a quick little missive about the possible time they might be spending in jail with Bruno the assmaster, it might put the fear o' $DEITY into some little 15 year old punk. You would want to make sure the PHP code is safe, of course, since it's running on *your server*, and if you are going to do some experimentation with this stuff, make damned sure Apache is running inside a nice safe jail, so you don't end up with egg on your face. I believe what you want to look at there is called "chroot". I'm sure there are many on this list who can provide more specific stuff, I'm just throwing out ideas ;-) -- JoeHill ++ ICQ # 280779813 Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "Behind every great fortune is a crime." -- Balzac -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From mr6re9-mI4xJ4qlgtBiLUuM0BA3LQ at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 14 15:03:40 2003 From: mr6re9-mI4xJ4qlgtBiLUuM0BA3LQ at public.gmane.org (GDHough) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 10:03:40 -0500 Subject: [sumthin] In-Reply-To: <20031214064537.051413c1.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <200312120721.15510.mr6re9@execulink.com> <200312140615.04319.mr6re9@execulink.com> <20031214064537.051413c1.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <200312141003.40238.mr6re9@execulink.com> On Sunday 14 December 2003 06:45, JoeHill wrote: > > Well, since they're lookin' for nothin', and, quelle surprise, gettin' > sumthin', why not make it fun (for you)? > > I know there's a rewrite rule out there somewhere for Code Red that crashes > the offending host. I'm not suggesting you violate the *law* or anything, > but if you were to put an index.php that contained code which, say, > displayed their IP, the name of their ISP, what OS they were running, etc. > and a quick little missive about the possible time they might be spending > in jail with Bruno the assmaster, it might put the fear o' $DEITY into some > little 15 year old punk. > > You would want to make sure the PHP code is safe, of course, since it's > running on *your server*, and if you are going to do some experimentation > with this stuff, make damned sure Apache is running inside a nice safe > jail, so you don't end up with egg on your face. I believe what you want to > look at there is called "chroot". > > I'm sure there are many on this list who can provide more specific stuff, > I'm just throwing out ideas ;-) I don't even let my NWN Druid use TAUNT, I certainly don't want Apache dancing around in full headress. I'm not that Brave.. The nsiislog is in fact a LOG. The file IS relavent. THAT is my reasoning. One thing is for sure with regards to an index in /sumthin/, they will not get a 404. They will get a directory listing if I chose, but It all depends on relavence. I can't say for sure who or what GET's /sumthin/, but I believe it is a mode that caught-on through the years and was adopted by different folks. I highly doubt I would be the first in history to create that directory, and I haven't yet. BUT, If it's banners ye seek, banners ye GET. -- Eating Crow is better with MyCrowSauce -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From emmajane-MHIYrZpDPrNWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 14 15:58:33 2003 From: emmajane-MHIYrZpDPrNWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (emmajane-MHIYrZpDPrNWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 10:58:33 -0500 (EST) Subject: : Message-ID: <1336.65.93.204.10.1071417513.squirrel@mailbox.samurai.com> Morning all, Here's my problem: my Acer laptop's fan is dying. It's making a horrible, horrible noise. There's a snow storm outside, and I have 90 assignments that must be marked today...on-line (of course). Does anyone know if one of the computer stores in the ghetto will be able to fix this /today/? I will not go to OTA. Maybe Sonam? Help would be much appreciated (otherwise I'm TTCing up to Humber College to mark them at school). Dying Acer laptop fan From: "Emma Jane Hogbin" To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Reply-To: emmajane-MHIYrZpDPrNWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal Morning all, Here's my problem: my Acer laptop's fan is dying. It's making a horrible, horrible noise. There's a snow storm outside, and I have 90 assignments that must be marked today...on-line (of course). Does anyone know if one of the computer stores in the ghetto will be able to fix this /today/? I will not go to OTA, and I know that Sonnam is closed. I'm out Parkdale way, but am willing to travel to get this fixed. Help would be much appreciated (otherwise I'm TTCing up to Humber College to mark them at school). emma -- Emma Jane Hogbin Xtrinsic -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From aacton-B71PBEe7S7Y at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 14 16:16:42 2003 From: aacton-B71PBEe7S7Y at public.gmane.org (Austin Acton) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 11:16:42 -0500 Subject: : In-Reply-To: <1336.65.93.204.10.1071417513.squirrel-cl+VPiYnx/2AJ8SbLfX5JEEOCMrvLtNR@public.gmane.org> References: <1336.65.93.204.10.1071417513.squirrel@mailbox.samurai.com> Message-ID: <1071418599.2127.18.camel@gamma373-365.portable.resnet.yorku.ca> On Sun, 2003-12-14 at 10:58, emmajane-MHIYrZpDPrNWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org wrote: > Does anyone know if one of the computer stores in the > ghetto will be able > to fix this /today/? I will not go to OTA. PCUsed fixes stuff, but probably not on Sundays. Maybe if you beg? Maybe someone at Canada Computer would help you do it yourself though. They're wizards, but usually REALLY busy. Austin -- Austin Acton Synthetic Organic Chemist, Teaching Assistant, Ph.D. Candidate Department of Chemistry, York University, Toronto MandrakeLinux Volunteer Developer, homepage: www.groundstate.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 14 20:58:33 2003 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 15:58:33 -0500 (EST) Subject: : In-Reply-To: <1071418599.2127.18.camel-33sJirT1wKzlb5+wx7kmt/BjuwtQqDz/bwi28uEu5RN+FfftCXEu2Q@public.gmane.org> References: <1336.65.93.204.10.1071417513.squirrel@mailbox.samurai.com> <1071418599.2127.18.camel@gamma373-365.portable.resnet.yorku.ca> Message-ID: <1739.65.93.224.239.1071435513.squirrel@host.bettermarkets.com> Hi, I might be able to help you, given that it is an emergency. May I suggest thought that for today you are probably okay if the noise just started. That usually happens when the sleeve bearing splits and spins the oil out. The fan will keep spinning for at least a couple of weeks (usuallY). At the very least, as I said, today should be fine, if loud. You will want to get it fixed ASAP though because it will sieze shortly. Part of the problem you are going to find is that the fan is likely a small 25mm x 5mm custome blower integrated right into the heat sink. If you can tell me the model of the laptop I can check to see if my used parts supplier has one in stock. Good luck! Madison > On Sun, 2003-12-14 at 10:58, emmajane-MHIYrZpDPrNWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org wrote: >> Does anyone know if one of the computer stores in the >> ghetto will be able >> to fix this /today/? I will not go to OTA. > > PCUsed fixes stuff, but probably not on Sundays. Maybe if you beg? > Maybe someone at Canada Computer would help you do it yourself though. > They're wizards, but usually REALLY busy. > > Austin > -- > Austin Acton > Synthetic Organic Chemist, Teaching Assistant, Ph.D. Candidate > Department of Chemistry, York University, Toronto > MandrakeLinux Volunteer Developer, homepage: www.groundstate.ca > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From emmajane-MHIYrZpDPrNWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 14 21:47:07 2003 From: emmajane-MHIYrZpDPrNWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Emma Jane Hogbin) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 16:47:07 -0500 Subject: spinning out of control :) In-Reply-To: <1739.65.93.224.239.1071435513.squirrel-cSwQExXi3C0g59NOP9PCHBGZ6WaZejjh@public.gmane.org> References: <1336.65.93.204.10.1071417513.squirrel@mailbox.samurai.com> <1071418599.2127.18.camel@gamma373-365.portable.resnet.yorku.ca> <1739.65.93.224.239.1071435513.squirrel@host.bettermarkets.com> Message-ID: <20031214214707.GA1209@debian> On Sun, Dec 14, 2003 at 03:58:33PM -0500, Madison Kelly wrote: > I might be able to help you, given that it is an emergency. May I > suggest thought that for today you are probably okay if the noise just > started. That usually happens when the sleeve bearing splits and spins > the oil out. The fan will keep spinning for at least a couple of weeks > (usuallY). At the very least, as I said, today should be fine, if loud. I've tried to add a little DW-40 to the mix, and have thrown /several/ explitives in the general direction of Acer. I can't get the laptop apart to see what the actual problem is though. > You will want to get it fixed ASAP though because it will sieze shortly. Agreed. I'm worried that it's going to sieze completely, but I also have work that /must/ get done. :/ I'm sure everyone knows that drill! I have an Acer TM 630 (632? 634? I can't remember). In any case, it's out of warranty (and I wouldn't want to have to deal with Acer or the place I bought it from again anyway). I tried PCUsed but they won't deal with Acers (i.e. the tech had no idea how to get the case apart either). emma -- Emma Jane Hogbin [[ 416 417 2868 ][ www.xtrinsic.com ]] -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 14 22:17:59 2003 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 17:17:59 -0500 (EST) Subject: spinning out of control :) In-Reply-To: <20031214214707.GA1209-/d9U08IjUQs@public.gmane.org> References: <1336.65.93.204.10.1071417513.squirrel@mailbox.samurai.com> <1071418599.2127.18.camel@gamma373-365.portable.resnet.yorku.ca> <1739.65.93.224.239.1071435513.squirrel@host.bettermarkets.com> <20031214214707.GA1209@debian> Message-ID: <2060.65.93.224.239.1071440279.squirrel@host.bettermarkets.com> Be very careful trying to take it apart. There are a lot of little bits with wires connected to them that can be torn easily (ie: the cable to the touchpad is a usual issue). Unfortunately it is too late today to call for parts so I will have to call tomorrow (which I will). Once I locate a fan it would be a pretty easy job to swap out. Madison > On Sun, Dec 14, 2003 at 03:58:33PM -0500, Madison Kelly wrote: >> I might be able to help you, given that it is an emergency. May I >> suggest thought that for today you are probably okay if the noise just >> started. That usually happens when the sleeve bearing splits and spins >> the oil out. The fan will keep spinning for at least a couple of weeks >> (usuallY). At the very least, as I said, today should be fine, if loud. > > I've tried to add a little DW-40 to the mix, and have thrown /several/ > explitives in the general direction of Acer. I can't get the laptop apart > to see what the actual problem is though. > >> You will want to get it fixed ASAP though because it will sieze >> shortly. > > Agreed. I'm worried that it's going to sieze completely, but I also have > work that /must/ get done. :/ I'm sure everyone knows that drill! > > I have an Acer TM 630 (632? 634? I can't remember). In any case, it's out > of warranty (and I wouldn't want to have to deal with Acer or the place I > bought it from again anyway). > > I tried PCUsed but they won't deal with Acers (i.e. the tech had no idea > how to get the case apart either). > > emma > > -- > Emma Jane Hogbin > [[ 416 417 2868 ][ www.xtrinsic.com ]] > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 14 22:19:32 2003 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 17:19:32 -0500 (EST) Subject: spinning out of control :) In-Reply-To: <20031214214707.GA1209-/d9U08IjUQs@public.gmane.org> References: <1336.65.93.204.10.1071417513.squirrel@mailbox.samurai.com> <1071418599.2127.18.camel@gamma373-365.portable.resnet.yorku.ca> <1739.65.93.224.239.1071435513.squirrel@host.bettermarkets.com> <20031214214707.GA1209@debian> Message-ID: <2074.65.93.224.239.1071440372.squirrel@host.bettermarkets.com> I meant to tell you that if it gets worse call me at 416-208-0146. I will be home around 6:00pm. Madison > On Sun, Dec 14, 2003 at 03:58:33PM -0500, Madison Kelly wrote: >> I might be able to help you, given that it is an emergency. May I >> suggest thought that for today you are probably okay if the noise just >> started. That usually happens when the sleeve bearing splits and spins >> the oil out. The fan will keep spinning for at least a couple of weeks >> (usuallY). At the very least, as I said, today should be fine, if loud. > > I've tried to add a little DW-40 to the mix, and have thrown /several/ > explitives in the general direction of Acer. I can't get the laptop apart > to see what the actual problem is though. > >> You will want to get it fixed ASAP though because it will sieze >> shortly. > > Agreed. I'm worried that it's going to sieze completely, but I also have > work that /must/ get done. :/ I'm sure everyone knows that drill! > > I have an Acer TM 630 (632? 634? I can't remember). In any case, it's out > of warranty (and I wouldn't want to have to deal with Acer or the place I > bought it from again anyway). > > I tried PCUsed but they won't deal with Acers (i.e. the tech had no idea > how to get the case apart either). > > emma > > -- > Emma Jane Hogbin > [[ 416 417 2868 ][ www.xtrinsic.com ]] > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From emmajane-MHIYrZpDPrNWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 14 22:31:26 2003 From: emmajane-MHIYrZpDPrNWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Emma Jane Hogbin) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 17:31:26 -0500 Subject: spinning out of control :) In-Reply-To: <2060.65.93.224.239.1071440279.squirrel-cSwQExXi3C0g59NOP9PCHBGZ6WaZejjh@public.gmane.org> References: <1336.65.93.204.10.1071417513.squirrel@mailbox.samurai.com> <1071418599.2127.18.camel@gamma373-365.portable.resnet.yorku.ca> <1739.65.93.224.239.1071435513.squirrel@host.bettermarkets.com> <20031214214707.GA1209@debian> <2060.65.93.224.239.1071440279.squirrel@host.bettermarkets.com> Message-ID: <20031214223126.GA1460@debian> On Sun, Dec 14, 2003 at 05:17:59PM -0500, Madison Kelly wrote: > Be very careful trying to take it apart. There are a lot of little bits > with wires connected to them that can be torn easily (ie: the cable to the > touchpad is a usual issue). Unfortunately it is too late today to call for > parts so I will have to call tomorrow (which I will). Once I locate a fan > it would be a pretty easy job to swap out. I've given up trying for tonight. I'm trying to ignore the dull roar and the tingling in my fingers from resting my hands on the keyboard--bad form comes back to bite me in the tinglies. :) Thanks so much for your help! Let me know how you fare tomorrow with finding a new fan. emma :) -- Emma Jane Hogbin [[ 416 417 2868 ][ www.xtrinsic.com ]] -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From kcozens-qazKcTl6WRFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 14 22:59:47 2003 From: kcozens-qazKcTl6WRFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Kevin Cozens) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 17:59:47 -0500 Subject: Exchange replacement, again... In-Reply-To: <20031213211237.A4C2B3FFA-xzRQuAxiFLNWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20031213144919.02244010@mail.interlog.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20031213144919.02244010@mail.interlog.com> <20031213211237.A4C2B3FFA@cbbrowne.com> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20031214174649.02378d90@mail.interlog.com> At 04:12 PM 12/13/2003 -0500, cbbrowne wrote: > > A Linux-based replacement for Exchange has been done. It was described in > > an issue of Linux Journal within the past year. I don't remember the > > specific issue off-hand. The article explains what was done and may have > > links to what you need to set it up. > >The project site is thus: > I don't think this is the same thing. I was talking about what I believed was a software solution that replaced Exchange while maintaining compatibility at the client end. In other words, the MS based server is replaced with a Linux box but the client side of things doesn't need to change. Here is a link to an LJ article with one solution: http://www.linuxjournal.com/article.php?sid=5659 If I think about it later, I will try and track down the LJ article I'm thinking of. It was one of their Features(?) on how a company replaced an Exchange server and how they went about doing it. P.S. Aha! I did a further search on the LJ site and found the article I was trying to recall. The article was from issue 106 and was titled "Understanding and Replacing Microsoft Exchange". The URL to information about said article is here: http://www.linuxjournal.com/article.php?sid=6368 Cheers! Kevin. (http://www.interlog.com/~kcozens/) Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172 |"What are we going to do today, Borg?" E-mail:kcozens at interlog dot com|"Same thing we always do, Pinkutus: Packet:ve3syb-XXPEJ3/fxIc at public.gmane.org#con.on.ca.na| Try to assimilate the world!" #include | -Pinkutus & the Borg -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From dgenn-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 14 23:46:55 2003 From: dgenn-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (DanG) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 18:46:55 -0500 Subject: Exchange replacement, again... In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20031214174649.02378d90-Nf8GSVjHSL5zk1aGpazrEgC/G2K4zDHf@public.gmane.org> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20031214174649.02378d90@mail.interlog.com> Message-ID: <20031214234540.UENL481016.fep02-mail.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com@pittlandctr8at> I think you may be referring to Bynari insight server (which is not GPL'd) or Opengroupware http://OpenGroupware.org. Dan -----Original Message----- From: owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org [mailto:owner-tlug at ss.org] On Behalf Of Kevin Cozens Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2003 6:00 PM To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Subject: Re: [TLUG]: Exchange replacement, again... At 04:12 PM 12/13/2003 -0500, cbbrowne wrote: > > A Linux-based replacement for Exchange has been done. It was > > described in an issue of Linux Journal within the past year. I don't > > remember the specific issue off-hand. The article explains what was > > done and may have links to what you need to set it up. > >The project site is thus: > I don't think this is the same thing. I was talking about what I believed was a software solution that replaced Exchange while maintaining compatibility at the client end. In other words, the MS based server is replaced with a Linux box but the client side of things doesn't need to change. Here is a link to an LJ article with one solution: http://www.linuxjournal.com/article.php?sid=5659 If I think about it later, I will try and track down the LJ article I'm thinking of. It was one of their Features(?) on how a company replaced an Exchange server and how they went about doing it. P.S. Aha! I did a further search on the LJ site and found the article I was trying to recall. The article was from issue 106 and was titled "Understanding and Replacing Microsoft Exchange". The URL to information about said article is here: http://www.linuxjournal.com/article.php?sid=6368 Cheers! Kevin. (http://www.interlog.com/~kcozens/) Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172 |"What are we going to do today, Borg?" E-mail:kcozens at interlog dot com|"Same thing we always do, Pinkutus: Packet:ve3syb-XXPEJ3/fxIc at public.gmane.org#con.on.ca.na| Try to assimilate the world!" #include | -Pinkutus & the Borg -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From alan-QVObF66B6qeOg/Yh5kgvkFaTQe2KTcn/ at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 15 00:50:47 2003 From: alan-QVObF66B6qeOg/Yh5kgvkFaTQe2KTcn/ at public.gmane.org (Alan Cohen) Date: 14 Dec 2003 19:50:47 -0500 Subject: lilo -v -t says nothing? Message-ID: <1071449447.22389.5.camel@tsx2> Hello all Can anyone comment? up2date downloaded a new kernel and now (when I want to test it) /sbin/lilo -v -t says little or nothing! /etc/lilo.conf ------------------------------------------------ prompt timeout=50 ##default=linux default=2.4.20-20.9 boot=/dev/md0 map=/boot/map install=/boot/boot.b message=/boot/message linear image=/boot/vmlinuz-2.4.20-24.9 ### label=linux label=2.4.20-24.9 initrd=/boot/initrd-2.4.20-24.9.img read-only root=/dev/md1 image=/boot/vmlinuz-2.4.20-20.9 label=2.4.20-20.9 initrd=/boot/initrd-2.4.20-20.9.img read-only root=/dev/md1 image=/boot/vmlinuz-2.4.20-6 label=2.4.20-20.6 initrd=/boot/initrd-2.4.20-6.img read-only root=/dev/md1 -- -------------------------------------- Please do not respond in HTML Alan Cohen alan-QVObF66B6qeOg/Yh5kgvkFaTQe2KTcn/@public.gmane.org voice: 416-783-9826 fax: 240-269-7457 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From nastos-JAjqph6Yjy8fbXvGcxQkLSwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 15 00:59:04 2003 From: nastos-JAjqph6Yjy8fbXvGcxQkLSwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Fred Nastos) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 19:59:04 -0500 Subject: lilo -v -t says nothing? In-Reply-To: <1071449447.22389.5.camel-j6c/GIPBaSg@public.gmane.org> References: <1071449447.22389.5.camel@tsx2> Message-ID: <200312141959.04966.nastos@physics.utoronto.ca> On December 14, 2003 07:50 pm, Alan Cohen wrote: > > up2date downloaded a new kernel and now (when I want to test it) > /sbin/lilo -v -t says little or nothing! Can you show us the output of $] ls /boot and can you tell us what distribution you are using (I assume some form of redhat since you are using up2date). It was my understanding that up2date properly instals the kernel, and runs /sbin/lilo for you, andif that fails then it tells you... but I may be mistaken. > /etc/lilo.conf ------------------------------------------------ > prompt > timeout=50 > ##default=linux > default=2.4.20-20.9 > boot=/dev/md0 > map=/boot/map > install=/boot/boot.b > message=/boot/message > linear > > image=/boot/vmlinuz-2.4.20-24.9 > ### label=linux > label=2.4.20-24.9 > initrd=/boot/initrd-2.4.20-24.9.img > read-only > root=/dev/md1 > > image=/boot/vmlinuz-2.4.20-20.9 > label=2.4.20-20.9 > initrd=/boot/initrd-2.4.20-20.9.img > read-only > root=/dev/md1 > > image=/boot/vmlinuz-2.4.20-6 > label=2.4.20-20.6 > initrd=/boot/initrd-2.4.20-6.img > read-only > root=/dev/md1 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 15 01:09:30 2003 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 20:09:30 -0500 Subject: spinning out of control :) In-Reply-To: <20031214223126.GA1460-/d9U08IjUQs@public.gmane.org> References: <1336.65.93.204.10.1071417513.squirrel@mailbox.samurai.com> <1071418599.2127.18.camel@gamma373-365.portable.resnet.yorku.ca> <1739.65.93.224.239.1071435513.squirrel@host.bettermarkets.com> <20031214214707.GA1209@debian> <2060.65.93.224.239.1071440279.squirrel@host.bettermarkets.com> <20031214223126.GA1460@debian> Message-ID: <3FDD09CA.7030004@alteeve.com> Sure. I will be downtown al day tomorrow so if you would like to hook up e-mail me either here on the list or on my proper e-mail: mkelly at alteve dot com. Madison Emma Jane Hogbin wrote: > On Sun, Dec 14, 2003 at 05:17:59PM -0500, Madison Kelly wrote: > >>Be very careful trying to take it apart. There are a lot of little bits >>with wires connected to them that can be torn easily (ie: the cable to the >>touchpad is a usual issue). Unfortunately it is too late today to call for >>parts so I will have to call tomorrow (which I will). Once I locate a fan >>it would be a pretty easy job to swap out. > > > I've given up trying for tonight. I'm trying to ignore the dull roar and > the tingling in my fingers from resting my hands on the keyboard--bad form > comes back to bite me in the tinglies. :) > > Thanks so much for your help! Let me know how you fare tomorrow with > finding a new fan. > > emma :) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 15 03:16:36 2003 From: davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (David J Patrick) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 22:16:36 -0500 Subject: ZeroInstall; application installallation Nirvana ? In-Reply-To: <20031214062527.4b3ec0ec.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FDBB243.3030904@sympatico.ca> <20031214062527.4b3ec0ec.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <3FDD2794.7040200@sympatico.ca> JoeHill wrote: >On Sat, 13 Dec 2003 19:43:47 -0500 >David J Patrick wrote: > > > >>Does this not look like THE most brilliant approach to software >>availability ? >> >> > >This is actually one way that the ROX desktop can be installed. Thomas Leonard, >the developer, has been using this system for months now. From what I see on the >ROX lists, it's very popular. Don't have to worry about this dependency or that >library, it's all on the network. > >Never tried it m'self...strange combo...anarchist control freak ;-) > > > Try it Joe, try it ! Rox rocks ! and ZeroInstall looks easy as pie. and let me know if it kicks proverbial ass. or what. i'm too skairt ta try. djp -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 15 03:24:27 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 22:24:27 -0500 Subject: ZeroInstall; application installallation Nirvana ? In-Reply-To: <3FDD2794.7040200-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FDBB243.3030904@sympatico.ca> <20031214062527.4b3ec0ec.joehill@sympatico.ca> <3FDD2794.7040200@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <20031214222427.2d5dfce9.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Sun, 14 Dec 2003 22:16:36 -0500 David J Patrick wrote: > Try it Joe, try it ! > Rox rocks ! and ZeroInstall looks easy as pie. I already use ROX...no need for installing again :-) Best file manager on the planet, that's for sure though. -- JoeHill ++ ICQ # 280779813 Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "The free communication of ideas and opinions is one of the most precious of the rights of man."-- Declaration of the Rights of Man -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From alan-QVObF66B6qeOg/Yh5kgvkFaTQe2KTcn/ at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 15 04:27:50 2003 From: alan-QVObF66B6qeOg/Yh5kgvkFaTQe2KTcn/ at public.gmane.org (Alan Cohen) Date: 14 Dec 2003 23:27:50 -0500 Subject: lilo -v -t says nothing? In-Reply-To: <200312141959.04966.nastos-JAjqph6Yjy8fbXvGcxQkLSwD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <1071449447.22389.5.camel@tsx2> <200312141959.04966.nastos@physics.utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <1071462470.22693.9.camel@tsx2> On Sun, 2003-12-14 at 19:59, Fred Nastos wrote: > On December 14, 2003 07:50 pm, Alan Cohen wrote: > > > > up2date downloaded a new kernel and now (when I want to test it) > > /sbin/lilo -v -t says little or nothing! > > Can you show us the output of > $] ls /boot cd /boot ls -ld * (All files owner=root group=root) -rw-r--r-- 1 512 Oct 8 09:28 boot.0300 -rw-r--r-- 1 512 Oct 8 09:28 boot.0340 -rw-r--r-- 1 5824 Jan 25 2003 boot.b -rw-r--r-- 1 612 Jan 25 2003 chain.b -rw-r--r-- 1 44696 Aug 18 11:34 config-2.4.20-20.9 -rw-r--r-- 1 44696 Dec 1 11:56 config-2.4.20-24.9 -rw-r--r-- 1 44252 Feb 27 2003 config-2.4.20-6 drwxr-xr-x 2 1024 Dec 6 22:10 grub -rw-r--r-- 1 157175 Oct 7 18:46 initrd-2.4.20-20.9.img -rw-rw-r-- 1 156943 Dec 6 22:10 initrd-2.4.20-24.9.img -rw-r--r-- 1 157782 Sep 29 20:55 initrd-2.4.20-6.img -rw-r--r-- 1 479 Sep 29 21:38 kernel.h drwx------ 2 12288 Sep 29 16:51 lost+found -rw------- 1 31744 Oct 8 09:59 map.0301 -rw------- 1 31744 Oct 8 09:59 map.0341 -rw-r--r-- 1 23108 Feb 24 2003 message -rw-r--r-- 1 21282 Feb 24 2003 message.ja lrwxrwxrwx 1 23 Dec 6 22:10 module-info -> module-info-2.4.20-24.9 -rw-r--r-- 1 15438 Aug 18 11:34 module-info-2.4.20-20.9 -rw-r--r-- 1 15438 Dec 1 11:56 module-info-2.4.20-24.9 -rw-r--r-- 1 15436 Feb 27 2003 module-info-2.4.20-6 -rw-r--r-- 1 640 Jan 25 2003 os2_d.b lrwxrwxrwx 1 22 Dec 6 22:36 System.map -> System.map-2.4.20-20.9 -rw-r--r-- 1 520771 Aug 18 11:34 System.map-2.4.20-20.9 -rw-r--r-- 1 520771 Dec 1 11:56 System.map-2.4.20-24.9 -rw-r--r-- 1 518292 Feb 27 2003 System.map-2.4.20-6 -rw-r--r-- 1 3180534 Aug 18 11:34 vmlinux-2.4.20-20.9 -rw-r--r-- 1 3180534 Dec 1 11:56 vmlinux-2.4.20-24.9 -rw-r--r-- 1 3149037 Feb 27 2003 vmlinux-2.4.20-6 lrwxrwxrwx 1 19 Dec 6 22:10 vmlinuz -> vmlinuz-2.4.20-24.9 -rw-r--r-- 1 1117322 Aug 18 11:34 vmlinuz-2.4.20-20.9 -rw-r--r-- 1 1117198 Dec 1 11:56 vmlinuz-2.4.20-24.9 -rw-r--r-- 1 1117057 Feb 27 2003 vmlinuz-2.4.20-6 > and can you tell us what distribution you are using (I assume some form of > redhat since you are using up2date). RedHat 9.0 uname -a Linux tsx3 2.4.20-20.9 #1 Mon Aug 18 11:27:43 EDT 2003 i686 athlon i386 GNU/Linux > It was my understanding that up2date properly installs the kernel, and runs > /sbin/lilo for you, and if that fails then it tells you... but I may be > mistaken. up2date did modify lilo.conf but didn't run /sbin/lilo (However it did advise me to do so.) In any case, I would have at least expected /sbin/lilo -t to at least say something like "The boot sector and the map files has NOT been altered" > > /etc/lilo.conf ------------------------------------------------ > > prompt > > timeout=50 > > ##default=linux > > default=2.4.20-20.9 > > boot=/dev/md0 > > map=/boot/map > > install=/boot/boot.b > > message=/boot/message > > linear > > > > image=/boot/vmlinuz-2.4.20-24.9 > > ### label=linux > > label=2.4.20-24.9 > > initrd=/boot/initrd-2.4.20-24.9.img > > read-only > > root=/dev/md1 > > > > image=/boot/vmlinuz-2.4.20-20.9 > > label=2.4.20-20.9 > > initrd=/boot/initrd-2.4.20-20.9.img > > read-only > > root=/dev/md1 > > > > image=/boot/vmlinuz-2.4.20-6 > > label=2.4.20-20.6 > > initrd=/boot/initrd-2.4.20-6.img > > read-only > > root=/dev/md1 > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- -------------------------------------- Please do not respond in HTML Alan Cohen alan-QVObF66B6qeOg/Yh5kgvkFaTQe2KTcn/@public.gmane.org voice: 416-783-9826 fax: 240-269-7457 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From nastos-JAjqph6Yjy8fbXvGcxQkLSwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 15 04:51:16 2003 From: nastos-JAjqph6Yjy8fbXvGcxQkLSwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Fred Nastos) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 23:51:16 -0500 Subject: lilo -v -t says nothing? In-Reply-To: <1071462470.22693.9.camel-j6c/GIPBaSg@public.gmane.org> References: <1071449447.22389.5.camel@tsx2> <200312141959.04966.nastos@physics.utoronto.ca> <1071462470.22693.9.camel@tsx2> Message-ID: <200312142351.16163.nastos@physics.utoronto.ca> On December 14, 2003 11:27 pm, Alan Cohen wrote: > (snip) > -rw-r--r-- 1 520771 Aug 18 11:34 System.map-2.4.20-20.9 > -rw-r--r-- 1 520771 Dec 1 11:56 System.map-2.4.20-24.9 > -rw-r--r-- 1 518292 Feb 27 2003 System.map-2.4.20-6 > -rw-r--r-- 1 3180534 Aug 18 11:34 vmlinux-2.4.20-20.9 > -rw-r--r-- 1 3180534 Dec 1 11:56 vmlinux-2.4.20-24.9 > -rw-r--r-- 1 3149037 Feb 27 2003 vmlinux-2.4.20-6 > lrwxrwxrwx 1 19 Dec 6 22:10 vmlinuz -> vmlinuz-2.4.20-24.9 > -rw-r--r-- 1 1117322 Aug 18 11:34 vmlinuz-2.4.20-20.9 > -rw-r--r-- 1 1117198 Dec 1 11:56 vmlinuz-2.4.20-24.9 > -rw-r--r-- 1 1117057 Feb 27 2003 vmlinuz-2.4.20-6 It looks like everything is there. Try running $] lilo -t -v -v (-v times two gives even more info). If that doesn't give anything, then what happens if you do the following: i) create an empty file called test_lilo.cfg $] touch test_lilo.cfg ii) as root, run $] lilo -t -C test_lilo.cfg It should say "Fatal: No images have been defined." > > It was my understanding that up2date properly installs the kernel, and > > runs /sbin/lilo for you, and if that fails then it tells you... but I may > > be mistaken. > > up2date did modify lilo.conf but didn't run /sbin/lilo > (However it did advise me to do so.) Hmm... to install a new kernel when using lilo, /sbin/lilo must be run, right? I've up2dated my kernel about seven times in the past couple of years using up2date, and I never had to run /sbin/lilo myself. I've had to do everything by hand if I removed a kernel, but not when downloading. The kernel was downloaded from redhat? > In any case, I would have at least > expected /sbin/lilo -t to at least say something like > "The boot sector and the map files has NOT been altered" Yes, I would have expected that also. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 15 05:07:47 2003 From: fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Fraser Campbell) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 00:07:47 -0500 Subject: lilo -v -t says nothing? In-Reply-To: <1071462470.22693.9.camel-j6c/GIPBaSg@public.gmane.org> References: <1071449447.22389.5.camel@tsx2> <200312141959.04966.nastos@physics.utoronto.ca> <1071462470.22693.9.camel@tsx2> Message-ID: <200312150007.47486.fraser@wehave.net> On December 14, 2003 11:27 pm, Alan Cohen wrote: > On Sun, 2003-12-14 at 19:59, Fred Nastos wrote: > > On December 14, 2003 07:50 pm, Alan Cohen wrote: > > > up2date downloaded a new kernel and now (when I want to test it) > > > /sbin/lilo -v -t says little or nothing! > > > > Can you show us the output of > > $] ls /boot > > cd /boot > ls -ld * > drwxr-xr-x 2 1024 Dec 6 22:10 grub You sure that you're using lilo and not grub? -- Fraser Campbell http://www.wehave.net/ Georgetown, Ontario, Canada Debian GNU/Linux -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From mr6re9-mI4xJ4qlgtBiLUuM0BA3LQ at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 15 12:04:39 2003 From: mr6re9-mI4xJ4qlgtBiLUuM0BA3LQ at public.gmane.org (GDHough) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 07:04:39 -0500 Subject: [help with grep] Message-ID: <200312150704.39650.mr6re9@execulink.com> Please, there must be an easier way... I am trying to automate my self induced weekly ADMIN duties. I mull through my logs on Sunday morning after rotation. They have gotten pretty big since the end of August so I sought a means to parse some files for information without having to scroll through 20,000 lines. One nagging problem for me is with grep. For example, if I: grep DPT=22 /var/log/messages.1 | cat > somefile somefile would contain not only DPT=22, but also all 220, 2276, 22344 or any port 22xxx. I tried the symbols \>, \b, \B thinking they would match the emptyness at the end of DPT=22 but they did not work for me. Laugh if you must but my solution to this dilema was to get DPT=22 by elimination using the invert switch -v like so: read DIRPATH mkdir $DIRPATH/DPT grep DPT=22 $DIRPATH/LOG | cat > $DIRPATH/DPT/A grep -v DPT=220 $DIRPATH/DPT/A | cat > $DIRPATH/DPT/B grep -v DPT=221 $DIRPATH/DPT/B | cat > $DIRPATH/DPT/C grep -v DPT=222 $DIRPATH/DPT/C | cat > $DIRPATH/DPT/D grep -v DPT=223 $DIRPATH/DPT/D | cat > $DIRPATH/DPT/E grep -v DPT=224 $DIRPATH/DPT/E | cat > $DIRPATH/DPT/F grep -v DPT=225 $DIRPATH/DPT/F | cat > $DIRPATH/DPT/G grep -v DPT=226 $DIRPATH/DPT/G | cat > $DIRPATH/DPT/H grep -v DPT=227 $DIRPATH/DPT/H | cat > $DIRPATH/DPT/I grep -v DPT=228 $DIRPATH/DPT/I | cat > $DIRPATH/DPT/J grep -v DPT=229 $DIRPATH/DPT/J | cat > $DIRPATH/DPT/dp22 echo "DPT=22" grep -c farm $DIRPATH/DPT/dp22 I search for about 40 ports both source and destination. Most high numbered ports don't require the elimination method like 8080 because 80800 doesn't exist. After I get the common ports catalogued, I hope to use diff to find what's left-over and flag those lines with same source and destination ports. Can I simplify the above and thus remove much of the sleep in the script? Shouldn't grep DPT=22\> work? That's what I'm seeing in the man page. Thanks, farmer6re9 -- Eating Crow is better with MyCrowSauce -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From f.e.jack-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 15 12:36:43 2003 From: f.e.jack-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Andy Jack) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 07:36:43 -0500 Subject: [help with grep] In-Reply-To: <200312150704.39650.mr6re9-mI4xJ4qlgtBiLUuM0BA3LQ@public.gmane.org> References: <200312150704.39650.mr6re9@execulink.com> Message-ID: <20031215123643.GC1950@seahorse> If you want to grep for DPT=22 followed by a space, then grep for it: grep 'DPT=22 ' file ^ space! Why do you pipe to "cat" and redirect? Direct redirection should also have the desired effect: grep 'DPT=22 ' file > dp22 The reason that grep DPT=22\> doesn't work is that the \> probably gets grabbed by your shell and handed to grep as a bare >, the \ being the shell escape character, so what grep actually sees is DPT=22>. Quote-protect the grep pattern so the shell doesn't mess around with it. grep 'DPT=22\>' file > dp22 Bonne chance, Andy -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 15 12:38:22 2003 From: fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Fraser Campbell) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 07:38:22 -0500 Subject: [help with grep] In-Reply-To: <200312150704.39650.mr6re9-mI4xJ4qlgtBiLUuM0BA3LQ@public.gmane.org> References: <200312150704.39650.mr6re9@execulink.com> Message-ID: <200312150738.24084.fraser@wehave.net> On December 15, 2003 07:04 am, GDHough wrote: > After I get the common ports catalogued, I hope to use diff to find what's > left-over and flag those lines with same source and destination ports. Can > I simplify the above and thus remove much of the sleep in the script? Yes, use logcheck (or similar) program to do the job for you. > Shouldn't grep DPT=22\> work? That's what I'm seeing in the man page. You are searching for DPT=22> ... there is no > in the iptables. You could search for port number followed by a space. grep 'DPT=22 ' /var/log/messages -- Fraser Campbell http://www.wehave.net/ Georgetown, Ontario, Canada Debian GNU/Linux -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From c.f.a.johnson-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 15 12:41:17 2003 From: c.f.a.johnson-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Chris F.A. Johnson) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 07:41:17 -0500 (EST) Subject: [help with grep] In-Reply-To: <200312150704.39650.mr6re9-mI4xJ4qlgtBiLUuM0BA3LQ@public.gmane.org> References: <200312150704.39650.mr6re9@execulink.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 15 Dec 2003, GDHough wrote: > Please, there must be an easier way... > > I am trying to automate my self induced weekly ADMIN duties. I mull through my > logs on Sunday morning after rotation. They have gotten pretty big since the > end of August so I sought a means to parse some files for information without > having to scroll through 20,000 lines. > > One nagging problem for me is with grep. For example, if I: > > grep DPT=22 /var/log/messages.1 | cat > somefile > > somefile would contain not only DPT=22, but also all 220, 2276, 22344 or any > port 22xxx. I tried the symbols \>, \b, \B thinking they would match the > emptyness at the end of DPT=22 but they did not work for me. Laugh if you > must but my solution to this dilema was to get DPT=22 by elimination using > the invert switch -v like so: > > read DIRPATH > mkdir $DIRPATH/DPT > grep DPT=22 $DIRPATH/LOG | cat > $DIRPATH/DPT/A > grep -v DPT=220 $DIRPATH/DPT/A | cat > $DIRPATH/DPT/B > grep -v DPT=221 $DIRPATH/DPT/B | cat > $DIRPATH/DPT/C > grep -v DPT=222 $DIRPATH/DPT/C | cat > $DIRPATH/DPT/D > grep -v DPT=223 $DIRPATH/DPT/D | cat > $DIRPATH/DPT/E > grep -v DPT=224 $DIRPATH/DPT/E | cat > $DIRPATH/DPT/F > grep -v DPT=225 $DIRPATH/DPT/F | cat > $DIRPATH/DPT/G > grep -v DPT=226 $DIRPATH/DPT/G | cat > $DIRPATH/DPT/H > grep -v DPT=227 $DIRPATH/DPT/H | cat > $DIRPATH/DPT/I > grep -v DPT=228 $DIRPATH/DPT/I | cat > $DIRPATH/DPT/J > grep -v DPT=229 $DIRPATH/DPT/J | cat > $DIRPATH/DPT/dp22 > echo "DPT=22" > grep -c farm $DIRPATH/DPT/dp22 > > I search for about 40 ports both source and destination. Most high numbered > ports don't require the elimination method like 8080 because 80800 doesn't > exist. > > After I get the common ports catalogued, I hope to use diff to find what's > left-over and flag those lines with same source and destination ports. Can I > simplify the above and thus remove much of the sleep in the script? > > Shouldn't grep DPT=22\> work? That's what I'm seeing in the man page. grep "DPT=\<22\>" /var/log/messages.1 > somefile ## no need for cat Or (if the number is followed by a space): grep "DPT=22 " /var/log/messages.1 > somefile To process all the ports: for port in 22 220 221 ....... do grep "DPT=\<$port\>" /var/log/messages.1 > somefile.$port done -- Chris F.A. Johnson ================================================================= cfaj-uVmiyxGBW52XDw4h08c5KA at public.gmane.org http://cfaj.freeshell.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From talexb-SBdzbUvMQDunS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 15 12:42:42 2003 From: talexb-SBdzbUvMQDunS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org (talexb-SBdzbUvMQDunS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 07:42:42 -0500 (EST) Subject: [help with grep] In-Reply-To: <200312150704.39650.mr6re9-mI4xJ4qlgtBiLUuM0BA3LQ@public.gmane.org> References: <200312150704.39650.mr6re9@execulink.com> Message-ID: How about trying grep "DPT=22 " /var/log/messages.1 > somefile to see if that works. Alternatively you might try egrep to see if it can handle the \b for a space. Alex On Mon, 15 Dec 2003, GDHough wrote: > Please, there must be an easier way... > > I am trying to automate my self induced weekly ADMIN duties. I mull through my > logs on Sunday morning after rotation. They have gotten pretty big since the > end of August so I sought a means to parse some files for information without > having to scroll through 20,000 lines. > > One nagging problem for me is with grep. For example, if I: > > grep DPT=22 /var/log/messages.1 | cat > somefile > > somefile would contain not only DPT=22, but also all 220, 2276, 22344 or any > port 22xxx. I tried the symbols \>, \b, \B thinking they would match the > emptyness at the end of DPT=22 but they did not work for me. Laugh if you > must but my solution to this dilema was to get DPT=22 by elimination using > the invert switch -v like so: > > read DIRPATH > mkdir $DIRPATH/DPT > grep DPT=22 $DIRPATH/LOG | cat > $DIRPATH/DPT/A > grep -v DPT=220 $DIRPATH/DPT/A | cat > $DIRPATH/DPT/B > grep -v DPT=221 $DIRPATH/DPT/B | cat > $DIRPATH/DPT/C > grep -v DPT=222 $DIRPATH/DPT/C | cat > $DIRPATH/DPT/D > grep -v DPT=223 $DIRPATH/DPT/D | cat > $DIRPATH/DPT/E > grep -v DPT=224 $DIRPATH/DPT/E | cat > $DIRPATH/DPT/F > grep -v DPT=225 $DIRPATH/DPT/F | cat > $DIRPATH/DPT/G > grep -v DPT=226 $DIRPATH/DPT/G | cat > $DIRPATH/DPT/H > grep -v DPT=227 $DIRPATH/DPT/H | cat > $DIRPATH/DPT/I > grep -v DPT=228 $DIRPATH/DPT/I | cat > $DIRPATH/DPT/J > grep -v DPT=229 $DIRPATH/DPT/J | cat > $DIRPATH/DPT/dp22 > echo "DPT=22" > grep -c farm $DIRPATH/DPT/dp22 > > I search for about 40 ports both source and destination. Most high numbered > ports don't require the elimination method like 8080 because 80800 doesn't > exist. > > After I get the common ports catalogued, I hope to use diff to find what's > left-over and flag those lines with same source and destination ports. Can I > simplify the above and thus remove much of the sleep in the script? > > Shouldn't grep DPT=22\> work? That's what I'm seeing in the man page. > > Thanks, > farmer6re9 > -- > Eating Crow is better with MyCrowSauce > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From pmills-5bG9SNWDbRX3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 15 12:45:45 2003 From: pmills-5bG9SNWDbRX3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Phillip Mills) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 07:45:45 -0500 Subject: [help with grep] In-Reply-To: <200312150704.39650.mr6re9-mI4xJ4qlgtBiLUuM0BA3LQ@public.gmane.org> References: <200312150704.39650.mr6re9@execulink.com> Message-ID: <99CC4B56-2EFC-11D8-8F61-00039310151E@axxent.ca> On Monday, December 15, 2003, at 07:04 AM, GDHough wrote: > Shouldn't grep DPT=22\> work? That's what I'm seeing in the man page. I believe you should get what you want if you quote the search string: grep "DPT=22\>" The shell is probably messing with your escaped character. ........................ Phillip Mills Multi-platform software development (416) 224-0714 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From mr6re9-mI4xJ4qlgtBiLUuM0BA3LQ at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 15 14:03:21 2003 From: mr6re9-mI4xJ4qlgtBiLUuM0BA3LQ at public.gmane.org (GDHough) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 09:03:21 -0500 Subject: [help with grep] In-Reply-To: References: <200312150704.39650.mr6re9@execulink.com> Message-ID: <200312150903.21501.mr6re9@execulink.com> Many Thanks, Learning is a wonderful thing. I had no idea I didn't need cat. I guess I'd only use it to append to a file as in cat >>, no? I considered the quotes but regrettfully never tried them. I definitely will not need so much sleep now. I use logwatch, but at the default level. I never attempted to customize it. It reports a number of things including lame servers, although I wish it would put a time-stamp on the lame server entries. Most of these are generated through Spamassassin MX lookups. My ultimate goal is to create some colorful charts and track some trends similar to this: http://farmer6re9.isa-geek.org/log.html ~141k w/image Thanks Again, farmer6re9 -- Eating Crow is better with MyCrowSauce -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From taavi-LbuTpDkqzNzXI80/IeQp7B2eb7JE58TQ at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 15 14:56:53 2003 From: taavi-LbuTpDkqzNzXI80/IeQp7B2eb7JE58TQ at public.gmane.org (Taavi Burns) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 09:56:53 -0500 Subject: [help with grep] In-Reply-To: <200312150903.21501.mr6re9-mI4xJ4qlgtBiLUuM0BA3LQ@public.gmane.org> References: <200312150704.39650.mr6re9@execulink.com> <200312150903.21501.mr6re9@execulink.com> Message-ID: <20031215145653.GM2033@hatefulsheep> On Mon, Dec 15, 2003 at 09:03:21AM -0500, GDHough wrote: > Many Thanks, > > Learning is a wonderful thing. I had no idea I didn't need cat. I guess I'd > only use it to append to a file as in cat >>, no? I considered the quotes but Absolutely not! >, >>, and | are all shell bits and have nothing to do with cat. grep yourmomma logfile >> appendedtolog -- taa /*eof*/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 15 16:46:23 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 11:46:23 -0500 Subject: More "end of the desktop PC" Message-ID: <20031215114623.2039a781.joehill@sympatico.ca> I've been reading articles like this for years now, in various forms proclaiming that the home desktop PC is a flawed and obsolete model, and that all of our software should be run from secure servers instead. Personally, they can take my desktop when they pry it from my cold dead hands, but I'm curious about how others see this issue. Of course there's nothing *inherantly* wrong with relinquishing some control to networked servers, but dare we trust our software when we don't have ultimate control over it locally, especially when we are talking about proprietary, closed source software that we cannot see what's "under the hood"? Link: http://rss.com.com/2010-7355_3-5118280.html?part=rss&tag=feed&subj=news -- JoeHill ++ ICQ # 280779813 Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "Fascism should rightly be called Corporatism, as it is the merger of corporate and government power"-- Benito Mussolini -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 15 17:18:21 2003 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 12:18:21 -0500 Subject: spinning out of control :) In-Reply-To: <3FCA3FC2.5F5D9328-BwLjziHGQLusTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org> References: <1336.65.93.204.10.1071417513.squirrel@mailbox.samurai.com> <1071418599.2127.18.camel@gamma373-365.portable.resnet.yorku.ca> <1739.65.93.224.239.1071435513.squirrel@host.bettermarkets.com> <20031214214707.GA1209@debian> <2060.65.93.224.239.1071440279.squirrel@host.bettermarkets.com> <20031214223126.GA1460@debian> <3FDD09CA.7030004@alteeve.com> <3FCA3FC2.5F5D9328@onlink.net> Message-ID: <3FDDECDD.7040906@alteeve.com> D'oh! Madison Chris Aitken wrote: >Madison Kelly wrote: > > > >>Sure. >> >>I will be downtown al day tomorrow so if you would like to hook up >>e-mail me either here on the list or on my proper e-mail: mkelly at >>alteve dot com. >> >> > >Isn't it alteeve.com? > > >-- >The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org >TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From tenger-ew0EfhANLmVEfu+5ix1nRw at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 15 17:26:15 2003 From: tenger-ew0EfhANLmVEfu+5ix1nRw at public.gmane.org (Terrence Enger) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 12:26:15 -0500 Subject: More "end of the desktop PC" In-Reply-To: <20031215114623.2039a781.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <20031215114623.2039a781.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20031215122615.006e17b4@mail.look.ca> At 11:46 2003-12-15 -0500, JoeHill wrote: > > I've been reading articles like this for years now, in various forms proclaiming > that the home desktop PC is a flawed and obsolete model, and that all of our > software should be run from secure servers instead. > > Personally, they can take my desktop when they pry it from my cold dead hands, > but I'm curious about how others see this issue. Of course there's nothing > *inherantly* wrong with relinquishing some control to networked servers, but > dare we trust our software when we don't have ultimate control over it locally, > especially when we are talking about proprietary, closed source software that we > cannot see what's "under the hood"? Well, I have become very comfortable indeed trusting proprietary software. But I do not willingly extend that trust in the PC world. It is with the IBM iSeries and its predecessors that--after long experience--I feel so comfortable. BTW, I have *earned* these grey hairs. My experience extends back to the time when proprietary mainframe operating systems came with source code. But times change. The bad news is that I can no longer submit patches with my bug reports on system software. The good news is that I scarcely remember the last time I saw a bug in the system software. Terry. > > Link: > > http://rss.com.com/2010-7355_3-5118280.html?part=rss&tag=feed&subj=news > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From emmajane-MHIYrZpDPrNWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 15 18:34:54 2003 From: emmajane-MHIYrZpDPrNWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Emma Jane Hogbin) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 13:34:54 -0500 (EST) Subject: (remote) install fest Message-ID: <1658.142.214.21.207.1071513294.squirrel@mailbox.samurai.com> hi, Once I get my laptop under control again, I'll want to start working on my server. I've leased some rack space, but it has RedHat on it. I prefer Debian. I'm totally fine installing Debian, however, I've never done it remotely. I was wondering if I could bribe anyone(s) to give me a hand with this. A friend of mine is also trying to get Debian to work on his laptop. He's got the install down, but hasn't managed to get X working yet. Free coffee is about what my budget can handle these days--however, I'm sure I could also figure out some egg nog if someone else wanted to bring the rum. ;) I'm currently reading the tutorials I've found for remote installs and am waiting for debian to be declared safe again post infiltration. My apartment has wifi and a very nice coffee maker. Let me know if you're interested. emma :) -- Emma Jane Hogbin www.xtrinsic.com -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 15 20:04:27 2003 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 15:04:27 -0500 Subject: More "end of the desktop PC" In-Reply-To: <20031215114623.2039a781.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <20031215114623.2039a781.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <20031215200427.GA746@node1.opengeometry.net> On Mon, Dec 15, 2003 at 11:46:23AM -0500, JoeHill wrote: > > I've been reading articles like this for years now, in various forms > proclaiming that the home desktop PC is a flawed and obsolete model, > and that all of our software should be run from secure servers > instead. > > Personally, they can take my desktop when they pry it from my cold > dead hands, but I'm curious about how others see this issue. Of course > there's nothing *inherantly* wrong with relinquishing some control to > networked servers, but dare we trust our software when we don't have > ultimate control over it locally, especially when we are talking about > proprietary, closed source software that we cannot see what's "under > the hood"? > > Link: > > http://rss.com.com/2010-7355_3-5118280.html?part=rss&tag=feed&subj=news Isn't that what .NET is all about? Lock in customer, and fleece him. -- William Park, Open Geometry Consulting, Linux solution for data management and processing. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 15 20:08:47 2003 From: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 15:08:47 -0500 (EST) Subject: More "end of the desktop PC" In-Reply-To: <20031215114623.2039a781.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <20031215114623.2039a781.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: On Mon, 15 Dec 2003, JoeHill wrote: > > I've been reading articles like this for years now, in various forms Yeah this idea of remote servers under someone elses control has been around for quite a long time. > proclaiming that the home desktop PC is a flawed and obsolete model, and > that all of our software should be run from secure servers instead. I see two seperate issues here... Personally I think the desktop PC is a flawed idea overall (from a system management point of view) but giving up control of data to a remote entity is even worse. The middle ground is a thinclient solution. I can giveup the desktop PC (replacing it with a "dumb" display device) but still keep the central server under the control of the owners of the data. Rob -- Robert Brockway B.Sc. email: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org, zzbrock at uqconnect.net Linux counter project ID #16440 (http://counter.li.org) "The earth is but one country and mankind its citizens" -Baha'u'llah -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 15 20:20:46 2003 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 15:20:46 -0500 Subject: spinning out of control :) In-Reply-To: <20031214223126.GA1460-/d9U08IjUQs@public.gmane.org> References: <1336.65.93.204.10.1071417513.squirrel@mailbox.samurai.com> <1071418599.2127.18.camel@gamma373-365.portable.resnet.yorku.ca> <1739.65.93.224.239.1071435513.squirrel@host.bettermarkets.com> <20031214214707.GA1209@debian> <2060.65.93.224.239.1071440279.squirrel@host.bettermarkets.com> <20031214223126.GA1460@debian> Message-ID: <3FDE179E.2000500@alteeve.com> Hi Emma, I called my supplier and they are pretty sure they have it in stock for ~$10/15. There are a couple different types though so he suggested (and I agree) that it would be best if I looked at the fan's part number before going to get it. That said, if you would like me to swap that for you e-mail me off the list and we can work out a time to meet so that I can get that part number and then later to actually swap the fan out. Sound good? Talk to you later! Madison Emma Jane Hogbin wrote: >On Sun, Dec 14, 2003 at 05:17:59PM -0500, Madison Kelly wrote: > > >>Be very careful trying to take it apart. There are a lot of little bits >>with wires connected to them that can be torn easily (ie: the cable to the >>touchpad is a usual issue). Unfortunately it is too late today to call for >>parts so I will have to call tomorrow (which I will). Once I locate a fan >>it would be a pretty easy job to swap out. >> >> > >I've given up trying for tonight. I'm trying to ignore the dull roar and >the tingling in my fingers from resting my hands on the keyboard--bad form >comes back to bite me in the tinglies. :) > >Thanks so much for your help! Let me know how you fare tomorrow with >finding a new fan. > >emma :) > > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jzygmont-tEQKYFGiemxAYG7eUwYNkWD2FQJk+8+b at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 15 20:25:08 2003 From: jzygmont-tEQKYFGiemxAYG7eUwYNkWD2FQJk+8+b at public.gmane.org (Justin Zygmont) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 15:25:08 -0500 (EST) Subject: More "end of the desktop PC" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I rememeber Oracle also had this vision. From what i've seen in many organizations, with PC's they usually just image them with the correct image for each department, since installing the software could take hours now a days. It would last for a while until windows would become unstable, and was full of junk, then it would have to be imaged again. It makes me wonder why Oracle's idea wasn't more successful since it solves this problem entirely, and imaging each PC individually seems foolish. On Mon, 15 Dec 2003, Robert Brockway wrote: > On Mon, 15 Dec 2003, JoeHill wrote: > > > > > I've been reading articles like this for years now, in various forms > > Yeah this idea of remote servers under someone elses control has been > around for quite a long time. > > > proclaiming that the home desktop PC is a flawed and obsolete model, and > > that all of our software should be run from secure servers instead. > > I see two seperate issues here... > > Personally I think the desktop PC is a flawed idea overall (from a system > management point of view) but giving up control of data to a remote entity > is even worse. > > The middle ground is a thinclient solution. I can giveup the desktop PC > (replacing it with a "dumb" display device) but still keep the central > server under the control of the owners of the data. > > Rob > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jzygmont-tEQKYFGiemxAYG7eUwYNkWD2FQJk+8+b at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 15 20:27:02 2003 From: jzygmont-tEQKYFGiemxAYG7eUwYNkWD2FQJk+8+b at public.gmane.org (Justin Zygmont) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 15:27:02 -0500 (EST) Subject: spinning out of control :) In-Reply-To: <3FDE179E.2000500-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <3FDE179E.2000500@alteeve.com> Message-ID: does your supplier have 2-4GB hardrives by any chance? :) I still can't find one, and below all electronics on Bloor st. is a bad choice. On Mon, 15 Dec 2003, Madison Kelly wrote: > Hi Emma, > > I called my supplier and they are pretty sure they have it in stock > for ~$10/15. There are a couple different types though so he suggested > (and I agree) that it would be best if I looked at the fan's part number > before going to get it. That said, if you would like me to swap that for > you e-mail me off the list and we can work out a time to meet so that I > can get that part number and then later to actually swap the fan out. > > Sound good? Talk to you later! > > Madison > > Emma Jane Hogbin wrote: > > >On Sun, Dec 14, 2003 at 05:17:59PM -0500, Madison Kelly wrote: > > > > > >>Be very careful trying to take it apart. There are a lot of little bits > >>with wires connected to them that can be torn easily (ie: the cable to the > >>touchpad is a usual issue). Unfortunately it is too late today to call for > >>parts so I will have to call tomorrow (which I will). Once I locate a fan > >>it would be a pretty easy job to swap out. > >> > >> > > > >I've given up trying for tonight. I'm trying to ignore the dull roar and > >the tingling in my fingers from resting my hands on the keyboard--bad form > >comes back to bite me in the tinglies. :) > > > >Thanks so much for your help! Let me know how you fare tomorrow with > >finding a new fan. > > > >emma :) > > > > > > > > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 15 21:08:34 2003 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 16:08:34 -0500 Subject: spinning out of control :) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3FDE22D2.4010703@alteeve.com> I am sure they do. If not though, I am pretty sure I do. Do you know if you want/need a 12mm, 9mm or 4.5mm thick 2.5" drives? Madison PS - 9mm is the most common thickness Justin Zygmont wrote: >does your supplier have 2-4GB hardrives by any chance? :) I still can't >find one, and below all electronics on Bloor st. is a bad choice. > > >On Mon, 15 Dec 2003, Madison Kelly wrote: > > > >>Hi Emma, >> >> I called my supplier and they are pretty sure they have it in stock >>for ~$10/15. There are a couple different types though so he suggested >>(and I agree) that it would be best if I looked at the fan's part number >>before going to get it. That said, if you would like me to swap that for >>you e-mail me off the list and we can work out a time to meet so that I >>can get that part number and then later to actually swap the fan out. >> >> Sound good? Talk to you later! >> >>Madison >> >>Emma Jane Hogbin wrote: >> >> >> >>>On Sun, Dec 14, 2003 at 05:17:59PM -0500, Madison Kelly wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>Be very careful trying to take it apart. There are a lot of little bits >>>>with wires connected to them that can be torn easily (ie: the cable to the >>>>touchpad is a usual issue). Unfortunately it is too late today to call for >>>>parts so I will have to call tomorrow (which I will). Once I locate a fan >>>>it would be a pretty easy job to swap out. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>I've given up trying for tonight. I'm trying to ignore the dull roar and >>>the tingling in my fingers from resting my hands on the keyboard--bad form >>>comes back to bite me in the tinglies. :) >>> >>>Thanks so much for your help! Let me know how you fare tomorrow with >>>finding a new fan. >>> >>>emma :) >>> >>> >>> -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jzygmont-tEQKYFGiemxAYG7eUwYNkWD2FQJk+8+b at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 15 22:10:55 2003 From: jzygmont-tEQKYFGiemxAYG7eUwYNkWD2FQJk+8+b at public.gmane.org (Justin Zygmont) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 17:10:55 -0500 (EST) Subject: spinning out of control :) In-Reply-To: <3FDE22D2.4010703-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <3FDE22D2.4010703@alteeve.com> Message-ID: Actually I was just looking for a regular 3.5" drive for a PC. I thought there might be a lot of people around with old spares. If anyone has one they're willing to sell, please let me know. They seem to be a bit harder to find than I thought. On Mon, 15 Dec 2003, Madison Kelly wrote: > I am sure they do. If not though, I am pretty sure I do. Do you know if > you want/need a 12mm, 9mm or 4.5mm thick 2.5" drives? > > Madison > > PS - 9mm is the most common thickness > > Justin Zygmont wrote: > > >does your supplier have 2-4GB hardrives by any chance? :) I still can't > >find one, and below all electronics on Bloor st. is a bad choice. > > > > > >On Mon, 15 Dec 2003, Madison Kelly wrote: > > > > > > > >>Hi Emma, > >> > >> I called my supplier and they are pretty sure they have it in stock > >>for ~$10/15. There are a couple different types though so he suggested > >>(and I agree) that it would be best if I looked at the fan's part number > >>before going to get it. That said, if you would like me to swap that for > >>you e-mail me off the list and we can work out a time to meet so that I > >>can get that part number and then later to actually swap the fan out. > >> > >> Sound good? Talk to you later! > >> > >>Madison > >> > >>Emma Jane Hogbin wrote: > >> > >> > >> > >>>On Sun, Dec 14, 2003 at 05:17:59PM -0500, Madison Kelly wrote: > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>>Be very careful trying to take it apart. There are a lot of little bits > >>>>with wires connected to them that can be torn easily (ie: the cable to the > >>>>touchpad is a usual issue). Unfortunately it is too late today to call for > >>>>parts so I will have to call tomorrow (which I will). Once I locate a fan > >>>>it would be a pretty easy job to swap out. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>I've given up trying for tonight. I'm trying to ignore the dull roar and > >>>the tingling in my fingers from resting my hands on the keyboard--bad form > >>>comes back to bite me in the tinglies. :) > >>> > >>>Thanks so much for your help! Let me know how you fare tomorrow with > >>>finding a new fan. > >>> > >>>emma :) > >>> > >>> > >>> > > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 15 23:34:04 2003 From: davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (David J Patrick) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 18:34:04 -0500 Subject: ZeroInstall; dare ya ! In-Reply-To: <20031214222427.2d5dfce9.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FDBB243.3030904@sympatico.ca> <20031214062527.4b3ec0ec.joehill@sympatico.ca> <3FDD2794.7040200@sympatico.ca> <20031214222427.2d5dfce9.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <3FDE44EC.7050409@sympatico.ca> JoeHill wrote: >On Sun, 14 Dec 2003 22:16:36 -0500 >David J Patrick wrote: > > > >>Try it Joe, try it ! >>Rox rocks ! and ZeroInstall looks easy as pie. >> >> > >I already use ROX...no need for installing again :-) > >Best file manager on the planet, that's for sure though. > > > c'mon Joe.. (from the website) Key Points; * Software is only ever /cached/, not /installed/. Anyone can run any software, and nothing is run as root. * Running a program is done in the same way whether it's cached or not. * Running cached software is as fast as running traditionally-installed software. * Zero Install is both simpler and more secure than traditional packaging systems. * Software can be removed from the cache to free space without affecting the behaviour of the system (it will be recached on demand). How hard could it be ? ok, it requires a small Linux kernel module to provide the /uri/0install directory, but that's probably a piece o cake, for a seasoned, Rox lovin', kernel compilin' cowboy, such as yerself. right ? If this thing works, as advertized, it'll change the world.. unless nobody "gets it". check it out, try it out. spread the word. (when I learn to cook up a kernel, I'm gonn go 2.6, cause Linus said to, and get me some 0install, djp -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 15 23:56:18 2003 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 18:56:18 -0500 Subject: ZeroInstall; dare ya ! In-Reply-To: <3FDE44EC.7050409-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FDBB243.3030904@sympatico.ca> <20031214062527.4b3ec0ec.joehill@sympatico.ca> <3FDD2794.7040200@sympatico.ca> <20031214222427.2d5dfce9.joehill@sympatico.ca> <3FDE44EC.7050409@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <20031215235618.GA1215@node1.opengeometry.net> On Mon, Dec 15, 2003 at 06:34:04PM -0500, David J Patrick wrote: > (from the website) Key Points; > > * Software is only ever /cached/, not /installed/. Anyone can run > any software, and nothing is run as root. > * Running a program is done in the same way whether it's cached or not. > * Running cached software is as fast as running > traditionally-installed software. > * Zero Install is both simpler and more secure than traditional > packaging systems. > * Software can be removed from the cache to free space without > affecting the behaviour of the system (it will be recached on demand). > > How hard could it be ? > ok, it requires a small Linux kernel module to provide the > /uri/0install directory, > but that's probably a piece o cake, for a seasoned, Rox lovin', kernel > compilin' cowboy, such as yerself. > right ? > > If this thing works, as advertized, it'll change the world.. unless > nobody "gets it". > check it out, try it out. spread the word. > > (when I learn to cook up a kernel, I'm gonn go 2.6, cause Linus said to, > and get me some 0install, But, how would you run Vim or LaTeX? You would have to dial out every time you turn your computer on, no? Is that like doing network install, every time? -- William Park, Open Geometry Consulting, Linux solution for data management and processing. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 16 00:03:09 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 19:03:09 -0500 Subject: ZeroInstall; dare ya ! In-Reply-To: <3FDE44EC.7050409-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FDBB243.3030904@sympatico.ca> <20031214062527.4b3ec0ec.joehill@sympatico.ca> <3FDD2794.7040200@sympatico.ca> <20031214222427.2d5dfce9.joehill@sympatico.ca> <3FDE44EC.7050409@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <20031215190309.029ab636.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Mon, 15 Dec 2003 18:34:04 -0500 David J Patrick wrote: > kernel compilin' cowboy, such as yerself. /joehill spews tea all over monitor I never cowpiled a kernel in my life...tried a coupla times, never got past selecting the modules, hadn't the faintest idea what I was doing. You need a kenel module for this zeroinstsall?! Hmmm, did not know that. -- JoeHill ++ ICQ # 280779813 Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone."-- John Maynard Keynes -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lloyd-fEEwcc3XMu8jODpR/OX0VQ at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 16 00:06:05 2003 From: lloyd-fEEwcc3XMu8jODpR/OX0VQ at public.gmane.org (Lloyd Budd) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 19:06:05 -0500 Subject: ZeroInstall; application installallation Nirvana ? In-Reply-To: <3FDBB243.3030904-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FDBB243.3030904@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: On 13-Dec-03, at 19:43, David J Patrick wrote: > I just followed an osnews.com story and discovered ZeroInstall > (http://zero-install.sourceforge.net/) > I'm /floored/ by the implications. > Does this not look like THE most brilliant approach to software > availability ? > ..or do I need more sleep ? You probably need more sleep. This does not seem any different than the "promise" of Java (applets), and other applet incarnations. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 16 00:26:44 2003 From: cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org (cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 19:26:44 -0500 Subject: ZeroInstall; dare ya ! In-Reply-To: Message from William Park of "Mon, 15 Dec 2003 18:56:18 EST." <20031215235618.GA1215-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <3FDBB243.3030904@sympatico.ca> <20031214062527.4b3ec0ec.joehill@sympatico.ca> <3FDD2794.7040200@sympatico.ca> <20031214222427.2d5dfce9.joehill@sympatico.ca> <3FDE44EC.7050409@sympatico.ca> <20031215235618.GA1215@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <20031216002645.C48624071@cbbrowne.com> William Park wrote: > On Mon, Dec 15, 2003 at 06:34:04PM -0500, David J Patrick wrote: > > (from the website) Key Points; > > > > * Software is only ever /cached/, not /installed/. Anyone can run > > any software, and nothing is run as root. > > * Running a program is done in the same way whether it's cached or not. > > * Running cached software is as fast as running > > traditionally-installed software. > > * Zero Install is both simpler and more secure than traditional > > packaging systems. > > * Software can be removed from the cache to free space without > > affecting the behaviour of the system (it will be recached on demand). > > > > How hard could it be ? > > ok, it requires a small Linux kernel module to provide the > > /uri/0install directory, > > but that's probably a piece o cake, for a seasoned, Rox lovin', kernel > > compilin' cowboy, such as yerself. > > right ? > > > > If this thing works, as advertized, it'll change the world.. unless > > nobody "gets it". > > check it out, try it out. spread the word. > > > > (when I learn to cook up a kernel, I'm gonn go 2.6, cause Linus said to, > > and get me some 0install, > > But, how would you run Vim or LaTeX? You would have to dial out every > time you turn your computer on, no? Is that like doing network install, > every time? I suspect you missed the term "cached." If aggressive disk-based cacheing is taking place, Vim and LaTeX are already cached on your system after you run them the first time, and little if any work is needed to pull them in again. When you reboot, they are still in the cache. The really slick part of this is that if you run this way for a few weeks, you could monitor what remains cached, and take the wild guess that that set of software is probably what would be of value to install permanently on any other system. And that things that aren't in the cache aren't used often enough to be worth installing. -- output = reverse("gro.gultn" "@" "enworbbc") http://cbbrowne.com/info/linuxxian.html VERITAS AETERNA -- DON'T SETQ T. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 16 01:09:02 2003 From: davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (David J Patrick) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 20:09:02 -0500 Subject: ZeroInstall; dare ya ! In-Reply-To: <20031215235618.GA1215-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <3FDBB243.3030904@sympatico.ca> <20031214062527.4b3ec0ec.joehill@sympatico.ca> <3FDD2794.7040200@sympatico.ca> <20031214222427.2d5dfce9.joehill@sympatico.ca> <3FDE44EC.7050409@sympatico.ca> <20031215235618.GA1215@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <3FDE5B2D.8090102@sympatico.ca> William Park wrote: >On Mon, Dec 15, 2003 at 06:34:04PM -0500, David J Patrick wrote: > > >>(from the website) Key Points; >> >> * Software is only ever /cached/, not /installed/. Anyone can run >> any software, and nothing is run as root. >> * Running a program is done in the same way whether it's cached or not. >> * Running cached software is as fast as running >> traditionally-installed software. >> * Zero Install is both simpler and more secure than traditional >> packaging systems. >> * Software can be removed from the cache to free space without >> affecting the behaviour of the system (it will be recached on demand). >> >>How hard could it be ? >> ok, it requires a small Linux kernel module to provide the >>/uri/0install directory, >>but that's probably a piece o cake, for a seasoned, Rox lovin', kernel >>compilin' cowboy, such as yerself. >> right ? >> >>If this thing works, as advertized, it'll change the world.. unless >>nobody "gets it". >> check it out, try it out. spread the word. >> >>(when I learn to cook up a kernel, I'm gonn go 2.6, cause Linus said to, >>and get me some 0install, >> >> > >But, how would you run Vim or LaTeX? You would have to dial out every >time you turn your computer on, no? Is that like doing network install, >every time? > > > Only the first time you use an application. After that, you got it in the cache. (this will be a much smaller PITA than the current download+install medthod) Of course, down the road _when_ this bit of super-genius takes off, a "distribution" will be nothing more than a core cache of esential apps and preconfigured pointers that will allowing any user to bootstrap any ol' online box to anything developers have made available via 0install. tell two people ! djp -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 16 01:15:02 2003 From: davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (David J Patrick) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 20:15:02 -0500 Subject: ZeroInstall; dare ya ! In-Reply-To: <20031215190309.029ab636.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FDBB243.3030904@sympatico.ca> <20031214062527.4b3ec0ec.joehill@sympatico.ca> <3FDD2794.7040200@sympatico.ca> <20031214222427.2d5dfce9.joehill@sympatico.ca> <3FDE44EC.7050409@sympatico.ca> <20031215190309.029ab636.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <3FDE5C96.2080700@sympatico.ca> JoeHill wrote: >On Mon, 15 Dec 2003 18:34:04 -0500 >David J Patrick wrote: > > > >>kernel compilin' cowboy, such as yerself. >> >> > >/joehill spews tea all over monitor > >I never cowpiled a kernel in my life...tried a coupla times, never got past >selecting the modules, hadn't the faintest idea what I was doing. > >You need a kenel module for this zeroinstsall?! Hmmm, did not know that. > > > sorry 'bout the monitor Joe, I was was just guessing that you were "the sort" what with all the consulting aspirations and such. I too must confess to membership of the "kernel kittens" club. I'm gonna learn how, dammit ! I just gotta symlink my temp directory first, see, it's a partition thing .. anyhoo. maybe future "kernel kaptains" will see fit to include this good good thing, in future distros. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 16 01:29:36 2003 From: davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (David J Patrick) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 20:29:36 -0500 Subject: ZeroInstall; application installallation Nirvana ? In-Reply-To: References: <3FDBB243.3030904@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <3FDE6000.3040805@sympatico.ca> Lloyd Budd wrote: > > On 13-Dec-03, at 19:43, David J Patrick wrote: > >> I just followed an osnews.com story and discovered ZeroInstall >> (http://zero-install.sourceforge.net/) >> I'm /floored/ by the implications. >> Does this not look like THE most brilliant approach to software >> availability ? >> ..or do I need more sleep ? > > > You probably need more sleep. This does not seem any different than > the "promise" of Java (applets), and other applet incarnations. > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > Much faster (lower level unix implimentation) requiring no Runtime Environment and capapble of running full applications, not just applets, from any avalable media; local drive, CDrom, http etc. second time the app runs from the cache, negating the need for always-on connection. and yes, I _do_ need more sleep. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 16 04:02:56 2003 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 23:02:56 -0500 Subject: More "end of the desktop PC" In-Reply-To: <20031215114623.2039a781.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <20031215114623.2039a781.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <20031216040256.GB6664@m450> On Mon, Dec 15, 2003 at 11:46:23AM -0500, JoeHill wrote > > I've been reading articles like this for years now, in various forms > proclaiming that the home desktop PC is a flawed and obsolete model, > and that all of our software should be run from secure servers > instead. > > Personally, they can take my desktop when they pry it from my cold > dead hands, but I'm curious about how others see this issue. Of > course there's nothing *inherantly* wrong with relinquishing some > control to networked servers, While composing this email, I'm listening to an American Internet radio station that plays nothing but pre-Beatles rock/pop. This freaks out the CRTC (Commission for Repression and Thought Control) no small amount. When she became chair of the CRTC, Mme. Francoise Bertrand had a rant about "Canadians spending too much time visiting American websites" and by-golly, we're gonna do something about it... http://www.efc.ca/pages/media/ottawa-sun.18nov96.html Just be thankful that the web exploded and created itself in a big-bang event that caught the regulators flat-footed. Look at what happened with satellite TV. Following the same pattern, we'd now all have 9600 bps dial-up, and we'd only be allowed to view Sympatico.ca internal webpages. The CRTC has tried to "make the internet safer for children" on a couple of occasions, but gotten nowhere. However, if there only a few major servers running our programs, it'll make things "so much easier" for regulators. > but dare we trust our software when we don't have ultimate control > over it locally, especially when we are talking about proprietary, > closed source software that we cannot see what's "under the hood"? Show-stoppers... If you aren't running broadband, forget about it. You have to get the data into the program. This means either downloading the program to your "set-top box", or uploading large spreadsheets and databases to publicly accessable systems. Yeah sure. -- Walter Dnes Email users are divided into two classes; 1) Those who have effective spam-blocking 2) Those who wish they did -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 16 04:25:54 2003 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 23:25:54 -0500 Subject: More "end of the desktop PC" In-Reply-To: <20031216040256.GB6664-Mb8sf/rG248@public.gmane.org> References: <20031215114623.2039a781.joehill@sympatico.ca> <20031216040256.GB6664@m450> Message-ID: <20031216042554.GA1557@node1.opengeometry.net> On Mon, Dec 15, 2003 at 11:02:56PM -0500, Walter Dnes wrote: > Show-stoppers... If you aren't running broadband, forget about it. > You have to get the data into the program. This means either > downloading the program to your "set-top box", or uploading large > spreadsheets and databases to publicly accessable systems. Yeah > sure. You mean you're not willing to subsidize Bell Canada with your DSL account and with your computing needs? That's almost treasonous... :-) -- William Park, Open Geometry Consulting, Linux solution for data management and processing. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From andzy-ZTO5kqT2PaM at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 16 04:59:06 2003 From: andzy-ZTO5kqT2PaM at public.gmane.org (Andrew Malcolmson) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 23:59:06 -0500 Subject: (remote) install fest References: <1658.142.214.21.207.1071513294.squirrel@mailbox.samurai.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 15 Dec 2003 13:34:54 -0500, Emma Jane Hogbin wrote: > Once I get my laptop under control again, I'll want to start working on > my server. I've leased some rack space, but it has RedHat on it. I > prefer Debian. I'm totally fine installing Debian, however, I've never > done it remotely. I was wondering if I could bribe anyone(s) to give me > a hand with this. You could come over to St. Christopher House at the corner of Dundas & Ossington where we need to figure out the same thing and we could all learn together. We've got a donation of a Netfinity 5500 server that we will be installing Debian on this week. It's in a location we can't always access, so I was planning to boot with Knoppix and then do a debrootstrap install at our leisure over SSH. So, if you or anyone else wants to come around and check out the Linux excitement, this week is probably a good time to check out the program since we're having a Christmas party Wednesday starting at 5:30. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 16 05:10:30 2003 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 00:10:30 -0500 Subject: (remote) install fest In-Reply-To: References: <1658.142.214.21.207.1071513294.squirrel@mailbox.samurai.com> Message-ID: <20031216051030.GA2130@node1.opengeometry.net> On Mon, Dec 15, 2003 at 11:59:06PM -0500, Andrew Malcolmson wrote: > You could come over to St. Christopher House at the corner of Dundas & > Ossington where we need to figure out the same thing and we could all > learn together. > > We've got a donation of a Netfinity 5500 server that we will be > installing Debian on this week. It's in a location we can't always > access, so I was planning to boot with Knoppix and then do a > debrootstrap install at our leisure over SSH. So, if you or anyone > else wants to come around and check out the Linux excitement, this > week is probably a good time to check out the program since we're > having a Christmas party Wednesday starting at 5:30. I've lost the previous threads. What will you be using it for? What does St. Christopher House do (I'm not familiar with it)? -- William Park, Open Geometry Consulting, Linux solution for data management and processing. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From andzy-ZTO5kqT2PaM at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 16 05:30:24 2003 From: andzy-ZTO5kqT2PaM at public.gmane.org (Andrew Malcolmson) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 00:30:24 -0500 Subject: Non-public flag on Gmane TLUG newsgroup Message-ID: <20031216053022.GA5436@#delanet.dnsalias.net> I'm the person who subscribed the TLUG list (Toronto Linux Users Group - gmane.org.user-groups.linux.tolug ) to Gmane back in August and I have a couple of questions for you: 1. This group is non-public (you need to subscribe to post), however Gmane doesn't bounce the message if non-subscribers try to post. I gather from the third paragraph of the 'Read-only groups' section of your 'Posting' page that Gmane should be doing this, so please make this happen. I think it would be helpful if there was a field on your list subscription form where public/non-public/read-only could be indicated. 2. The group list page has the description 'no articles; group not created yet'. This isn't correct - the list is active and the posts are showing up in Gmane. Thanks for your great service. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From andzy-ZTO5kqT2PaM at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 16 05:42:38 2003 From: andzy-ZTO5kqT2PaM at public.gmane.org (Andrew Malcolmson) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 00:42:38 -0500 Subject: Non-public flag on Gmane TLUG newsgroup References: <20031216053022.GA5436@#delanet.dnsalias.net> Message-ID: Sorry - I cc'ed this message to the group forgetting that no one will have any idea what it is about. I originally sent this to the Gmane administrators asking them to add a warning/bounce message to non-list-subscribers trying to post to the group through Gmane. Gmane is supposed to warn non-subscribers that this won't work - instead, it now just accepts the message which silently disappears into the void. On Tue, 16 Dec 2003 00:30:24 -0500, Andrew Malcolmson wrote: > I'm the person who subscribed the TLUG list (Toronto Linux Users Group - > gmane.org.user-groups.linux.tolug ) to Gmane back in August and I have a > couple of questions for you: > > 1. This group is non-public (you need to subscribe to post), however > Gmane doesn't bounce the message if non-subscribers try to post. I > gather from the third paragraph of the 'Read-only groups' section of > your 'Posting' page that Gmane should be doing this, so please make this > happen. > > I think it would be helpful if there was a field on your list > subscription form where public/non-public/read-only could be indicated. > > 2. The group list page has the description 'no articles; group not > created yet'. This isn't correct - the list is active and the posts are > showing up in Gmane. > > Thanks for your great service. -- ========================================== Andrew Malcolmson reply address munged - use imap.cc -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 16 07:29:41 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 02:29:41 -0500 Subject: More "end of the desktop PC" In-Reply-To: <20031216040256.GB6664-Mb8sf/rG248@public.gmane.org> References: <20031215114623.2039a781.joehill@sympatico.ca> <20031216040256.GB6664@m450> Message-ID: <20031216022941.401a77ee.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Mon, 15 Dec 2003 23:02:56 -0500 "Walter Dnes" wrote: > Just be thankful that the web exploded and created itself in a > big-bang event that caught the regulators flat-footed. Look at what > happened with satellite TV. Following the same pattern, we'd now all > have 9600 bps dial-up, and we'd only be allowed to view Sympatico.ca > internal webpages. The CRTC has tried to "make the internet safer for > children" on a couple of occasions, but gotten nowhere. However, if > there only a few major servers running our programs, it'll make things > "so much easier" for regulators. Ok, so I'm not alone here in thinking this is a *bad* idea. Someone mentioned .NET, the idea of being tied to something like that scares the bejeebers out of me. It's about as secure as a broken screen door, to begin with. ...and yes, I am thankful. We should have something in the Charter of Rights about the "right to bear computers" :-P -- JoeHill ++ ICQ # 280779813 Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "There are three side effects of acid: enhanced long-term memory, decreased short-term memory, and I forget the third."-- Timothy Leary -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jmm-TU2q2He6PgRlD5gtYiU6kEEOCMrvLtNR at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 16 13:19:28 2003 From: jmm-TU2q2He6PgRlD5gtYiU6kEEOCMrvLtNR at public.gmane.org (John Macdonald) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 08:19:28 -0500 Subject: More "end of the desktop PC" In-Reply-To: <20031216022941.401a77ee.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <20031215114623.2039a781.joehill@sympatico.ca> <20031216040256.GB6664@m450> <20031216022941.401a77ee.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <20031216081928.I877@algate.perlwolf.com> On Tue, Dec 16, 2003 at 02:29:41AM -0500, JoeHill wrote: > > We should have something in the Charter of Rights about the "right to bear > computers" :-P Yeah, a bear computer to replace this pig would be nice. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 16 13:08:48 2003 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 08:08:48 -0500 Subject: Albatron motherboards In-Reply-To: <3FDA8647.70006-F0u+EriZ6ihBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <3FDA8647.70006@truxtar.com> Message-ID: <20031216130848.GA30204@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Fri, Dec 12, 2003 at 10:23:51PM -0500, Anton Markov wrote: > Hello Everyone, > > Following my motherboard problems (See "What to do with kernel > panics?"), I have decided to buy myself another motherboard (the one I > got apparently supports FSB up to 400MHz; my P4 runs at 533MHz). > > I am looking at the Albatron PX845PEV-800 (or perhaps the Albatron > PX865PE PRO II). I would like to know if anyone has had any good/bad > experiences with these, as well as how compatible they are with Linux (I > am going to do a search on that myself too, but I want a real-world > opinion). Well I for one have never heard of them (which in my book is not a good sign. it doesn't mean they are bad, just that they are an unknown and support may hence not be that good.) I am one of those people that only buy Asus boards. For a P4, the P4P800-DLX is a very nice board. It is an i865 based board, which seems to be the most popular for P4s at the moment (i875 seems overpriced). Lennart Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From fcsoft-3Emkkp+1Olsmp8TqCH86vg at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 16 14:13:02 2003 From: fcsoft-3Emkkp+1Olsmp8TqCH86vg at public.gmane.org (bob findlay) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 09:13:02 -0500 Subject: More "end of the desktop PC" In-Reply-To: References: <20031215114623.2039a781.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <20031216141206.32224BABC3@outbox.allstream.net> http://www.icanprogram.com/selfhostedCD.html I think somewhere in here is the idea that could replace the PC without actually relinquishing local control of the data. I for one would love to be able to update my desktop system by simply popping in a new CD, knowing with confidence that all my configurations and data on the harddrive would be untouched and intact. On December 15, 2003 03:08 pm, you wrote: > On Mon, 15 Dec 2003, JoeHill wrote: > > I've been reading articles like this for years now, in various forms > > Yeah this idea of remote servers under someone elses control has been > around for quite a long time. > > > proclaiming that the home desktop PC is a flawed and obsolete model, and > > that all of our software should be run from secure servers instead. > > I see two seperate issues here... > > Personally I think the desktop PC is a flawed idea overall (from a system > management point of view) but giving up control of data to a remote entity > is even worse. > > The middle ground is a thinclient solution. I can giveup the desktop PC > (replacing it with a "dumb" display device) but still keep the central > server under the control of the owners of the data. > > Rob -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 16 14:20:19 2003 From: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 09:20:19 -0500 (EST) Subject: (remote) install fest In-Reply-To: References: <1658.142.214.21.207.1071513294.squirrel@mailbox.samurai.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 15 Dec 2003, Andrew Malcolmson wrote: > We've got a donation of a Netfinity 5500 server that we will be installing > Debian on this week. It's in a location we can't always access, so I was > planning to boot with Knoppix and then do a debrootstrap install at our > leisure over SSH. So, if you or anyone else wants to come around and May I suggest you look into configuring a software serial console and either put it in the back of another server or connect it to a modem. As always assess your security needs when allowing access to the console. If there is someone on-site who can connect the console modem to the phone network on request (and disconnect it afterwards), a console on dialup probably isn't too insecure. Connecting the serial console to another box which is accessible only via ssh is also good as long as you trust the owners of the other box. Rob -- Robert Brockway B.Sc. email: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org, zzbrock at uqconnect.net Linux counter project ID #16440 (http://counter.li.org) "The earth is but one country and mankind its citizens" -Baha'u'llah -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From tenger-ew0EfhANLmVEfu+5ix1nRw at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 16 16:13:45 2003 From: tenger-ew0EfhANLmVEfu+5ix1nRw at public.gmane.org (Terrence Enger) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 11:13:45 -0500 Subject: (remote) install fest In-Reply-To: References: <1658.142.214.21.207.1071513294.squirrel@mailbox.samurai.com> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20031216111345.00719534@mail.look.ca> At 23:59 2003-12-15 -0500, Andrew Malcolmson wrote: > On Mon, 15 Dec 2003 13:34:54 -0500, Emma Jane Hogbin wrote: > > Once I get my laptop under control again, I'll want to start working on > > my server. I've leased some rack space, but it has RedHat on it. I > > prefer Debian. I'm totally fine installing Debian, however, I've never > > done it remotely. I was wondering if I could bribe anyone(s) to give me > > a hand with this. > > You could come over to St. Christopher House at the corner of Dundas & > Ossington where we need to figure out the same thing and we could all > learn together. > > We've got a donation of a Netfinity 5500 server that we will be installing > Debian on this week. It's in a location we can't always access, so I was > planning to boot with Knoppix and then do a debrootstrap install at our > leisure over SSH. So, if you or anyone else wants to come around and > check out the Linux excitement, this week is probably a good time to check > out the program since we're having a Christmas party Wednesday starting at > 5:30. Gee, I would like to see how to do a remote installation, but I cannot make the party. If you have any other working sessions I could evesdrop on, I would like to try to fit them in. Thanks, Terry. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From andzy-ZTO5kqT2PaM at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 16 19:37:00 2003 From: andzy-ZTO5kqT2PaM at public.gmane.org (Andrew Malcolmson) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 14:37:00 -0500 Subject: (remote) install fest References: <1658.142.214.21.207.1071513294.squirrel@mailbox.samurai.com> <20031216051030.GA2130@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Dec 2003 00:10:30 -0500, William Park wrote: > I've lost the previous threads. What will you be using it for? What > does St. Christopher House do (I'm not familiar with it)? > It's a social services agency, one of the older ones in Toronto and not affiliated with any religious group (the name suggests this). The Dundas & Ossington branch (north-west corner) has a community learning program which is FLOSS-friendly. Presently there's a PHP group and a Linux group with meetings Thursday evenings and some other evenings depending on what we get organized. We've a Yahoo Group at: http://ca.groups.yahoo.com/group/sch_study/ This is the program's web site: http://www.bangthedrum.net Our co-ordinator swung the Netfinity donation and now we have a pretty awesome machine at our disposal ready to be Debianized. We plan to use it as a workspace for the various projects we have in mind so we'll start with a SSH shell server and soon add PHP/MySQL. We're tossing around ideas around booting thin client support for machines in the computer lab as well. Eventually it would be good if it supported a content management repository for users and staff, and a facility for this has been commissioned and is gradually becoming ready. Personally, I'm tinkering with Python & web services ideas so I'd like server support for that. There's so much capacity that we're open to ideas, of course. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From andzy-ZTO5kqT2PaM at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 16 19:47:32 2003 From: andzy-ZTO5kqT2PaM at public.gmane.org (Andrew Malcolmson) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 14:47:32 -0500 Subject: (remote) install fest References: <1658.142.214.21.207.1071513294.squirrel@mailbox.samurai.com> <3.0.3.32.20031216111345.00719534@mail.look.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Dec 2003 11:13:45 -0500, Terrence Enger wrote: > > Gee, I would like to see how to do a remote installation, but I cannot > make the party. If you have any other working sessions I could evesdrop > on, I would like to try to fit them in. Maybe later in the week would be better. Our PHP group meetings Thursday evening but I don't attend that so people who want to work on the server could meet also. The general plan is to set this beast with up RAID on the 6 (or is it 8 !?) SCSI harddrives using an server-specific IBM utility and then do a debrootstrap intallation as in: http://trilldev.sourceforge.net/files/remotedeb.html and http://twiki.iwethey.org/Main/DebianChrootInstall Can anyone who wants to help out post a preferance for Thursday or Friday? The party's on for Wednesday (6, not 5:30) so you can come by introduce yourself, and meet Santa, but that won't be a seriously techie event, obviously. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 16 20:56:42 2003 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 15:56:42 -0500 Subject: [TLUG] (remote) install fest In-Reply-To: References: <1658.142.214.21.207.1071513294.squirrel@mailbox.samurai.com> <20031216051030.GA2130@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <20031216205642.GA4553@node1.opengeometry.net> On Tue, Dec 16, 2003 at 02:37:00PM -0500, Andrew Malcolmson wrote: > Our co-ordinator swung the Netfinity donation and now we have a pretty > awesome machine at our disposal ready to be Debianized. We plan to > use it as a workspace for the various projects we have in mind so > we'll start with a SSH shell server and soon add PHP/MySQL. We're > tossing around ideas around booting thin client support for machines > in the computer lab as well. I am interested in thin client aspect. I'm Slackware guy, but there shouldn't be too much of difference with Debian, as long as XFree86 and Kernel are uptodate. - How many PCs do you have for Linux X-terminal? If you don't have enough, then multiple cpu-less stations (ie. monitor/keyboard/mouse) can be set up. - When do you plan to meet this week? -- William Park, Open Geometry Consulting, Linux solution for data management and processing. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From nastos-JAjqph6Yjy8fbXvGcxQkLSwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 17 00:43:40 2003 From: nastos-JAjqph6Yjy8fbXvGcxQkLSwD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Fred Nastos) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 19:43:40 -0500 Subject: Is there a thinkgeek.com-like gift shop in Toronto? Message-ID: <200312161943.40893.nastos@physics.utoronto.ca> Hi, Does anyone know of a shop in Toronto that sells items similar to those found at thinkgeek.com? That is, is there a geek gift store in Toronto? I know some items can be found in various shops, but is there any one partcular shop that has a geek slant to it. Thanks -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From andzy-ZTO5kqT2PaM at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 17 06:09:28 2003 From: andzy-ZTO5kqT2PaM at public.gmane.org (Andrew Malcolmson) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 01:09:28 -0500 Subject: (remote) install fest References: <1658.142.214.21.207.1071513294.squirrel@mailbox.samurai.com> <20031216051030.GA2130@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Dec 2003 00:10:30 -0500, William Park wrote: > I've lost the previous threads. What will you be using it for? What > does St. Christopher House do (I'm not familiar with it)? > St. Christopher House is a social services agency (one of the oldest on Toronto). Despite the name, it's not affiliated with any religion. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From andzy-ZTO5kqT2PaM at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 17 06:35:09 2003 From: andzy-ZTO5kqT2PaM at public.gmane.org (Andrew Malcolmson) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 01:35:09 -0500 Subject: (remote) install fest References: <1658.142.214.21.207.1071513294.squirrel@mailbox.samurai.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Dec 2003 09:20:19 -0500, Robert Brockway wrote: > May I suggest you look into configuring a software serial console and > either put it in the back of another server or connect it to a modem. As > always assess your security needs when allowing access to the console. > > If there is someone on-site who can connect the console modem to the phone > network on request (and disconnect it afterwards), a console on dialup > probably isn't too insecure. > > Connecting the serial console to another box which is accessible only via > ssh is also good as long as you trust the owners of the other box. > Thanks for these ideas, Robert. This is just for a community centre's user group though, so security isn't a big concern. I'm glad you mentioned this, though, since you gave me an idea as to how I can help someone I know needs a serial connection on a newer laptop without a serial port: I'll bet they could use PPP over a modem. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 17 11:57:46 2003 From: fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Fraser Campbell) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 06:57:46 -0500 Subject: (remote) install fest In-Reply-To: References: <1658.142.214.21.207.1071513294.squirrel@mailbox.samurai.com> Message-ID: <200312170657.47077.fraser@wehave.net> On December 17, 2003 01:35 am, Andrew Malcolmson wrote: > I'm glad you mentioned this, though, since you gave me an idea as > to how I can help someone I know needs a serial connection on a newer > laptop without a serial port You can buy a usb-to-serial convertor. -- Fraser Campbell http://www.wehave.net/ Georgetown, Ontario, Canada Debian GNU/Linux -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From mr6re9-mI4xJ4qlgtBiLUuM0BA3LQ at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 17 13:20:41 2003 From: mr6re9-mI4xJ4qlgtBiLUuM0BA3LQ at public.gmane.org (GDHough) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 08:20:41 -0500 Subject: [ACK RST] Message-ID: <200312170820.41550.mr6re9@execulink.com> I came across some unusual probes from this week past and here are a couple pieces: Dec 7 17:58:30 SRC=82.35.107.218 DST=my.ip.addr.249 LEN=48 TOS=0x00 PREC=0x00 TTL=117 ID=1071 DF PROTO=TCP SPT=3227 DPT=1214 WINDOW=16384 RES=0x00 SYN URGP=0 Dec 12 22:44:22 SRC=67.10.135.201 DST=my.ip.addr.116 LEN=40 TOS=0x00 PREC=0x00 TTL=236 ID=64154 DF PROTO=TCP SPT=2297 DPT=3787 WINDOW=0 RES=0x00 ACK RST URGP=0 How are they related? That's what I'd like to know. The first packet is part of a twelve hour probe and the second is one of two ACK RST's a few days later, hidden in another string of probes. It looks like KaZaA, but then again it don't. What do ya think it is? My observations - http://farmer6re9.isa-geek.org/annals/owl/screech.txt ~25k Sequence Plotted - http://farmer6re9.isa-geek.org/sv2492494.jpg ~74k Just wondering if anyone else is seeing this... Peace, farmer6re9 -- Eating Crow is better with MyCrowSauce -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lloyd-fEEwcc3XMu8jODpR/OX0VQ at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 17 16:42:43 2003 From: lloyd-fEEwcc3XMu8jODpR/OX0VQ at public.gmane.org (Lloyd Budd) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 11:42:43 -0500 Subject: music collection to ogg vorbis ? Message-ID: <0938AA1A-30B0-11D8-9A66-0003931BD222@foolswisdom.com> Hi TLUG, Apple's iTunes on disk insert will play and rip the CDs on to disk at same time. Includes all that nice ID tag data. Unfortunately it does not support encoding in ogg vorbis [1]. What is an efficient way to achieve the ripping (+tag) under Linux? Which Linux music players have the most complete play list functionality? Thank you, Lloyd [1] feel free to request this feature or provide other feedback regarding iTunes ;-) http://www.apple.com/feedback/itunes.html -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From taavi-LbuTpDkqzNzXI80/IeQp7B2eb7JE58TQ at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 17 16:50:06 2003 From: taavi-LbuTpDkqzNzXI80/IeQp7B2eb7JE58TQ at public.gmane.org (Taavi Burns) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 09:50:06 -0700 Subject: music collection to ogg vorbis ? In-Reply-To: <0938AA1A-30B0-11D8-9A66-0003931BD222-fEEwcc3XMu8jODpR/OX0VQ@public.gmane.org> References: <0938AA1A-30B0-11D8-9A66-0003931BD222@foolswisdom.com> Message-ID: <20031217165006.GA75234@idiom.novusordo.net> On Wed, Dec 17, 2003 at 11:42:43AM -0500, Lloyd Budd wrote: > What is an efficient way to achieve the ripping (+tag) under Linux? IIRC grip will snag disc info from freedb and rip with your choice of filename and filled out ID3 tag, direclty to your favourite format for which there exists a CLI encoder. > Which Linux music players have the most complete play list > functionality? I don't know. iTunes has spoilt me. ;) > [1] feel free to request this feature or provide other feedback > regarding iTunes ;-) > http://www.apple.com/feedback/itunes.html NB: probably the best feature request would be to allow iTunes to encode using any QuickTime codec available on the system. This will make supporting any number of codecs very simple (not just OGG, but FLAC, or whatever else tickles your fancy). -- taa "You may attend a party where strange customs prevail..." ...in bed. -- Fortune Cookie (with the required suffix) /*eof*/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 17 16:55:10 2003 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 11:55:10 -0500 Subject: music collection to ogg vorbis ? In-Reply-To: <20031217165006.GA75234-7r3UYZMxfuqyvPIx3LBjwNHuzzzSOjJt@public.gmane.org> References: <0938AA1A-30B0-11D8-9A66-0003931BD222@foolswisdom.com> <20031217165006.GA75234@idiom.novusordo.net> Message-ID: <3FE08A6E.1050003@alteeve.com> I have converted my CD collection to ogg using 'grip' to rip and 'xmms' to play - seems great! If you like verbose tags and filenames though be sure to edit the default settings in 'grip' - the default are sparce, to be polite. Madison Taavi Burns wrote: > On Wed, Dec 17, 2003 at 11:42:43AM -0500, Lloyd Budd wrote: > >>What is an efficient way to achieve the ripping (+tag) under Linux? > > > IIRC grip will snag disc info from freedb and rip with your choice > of filename and filled out ID3 tag, direclty to your favourite > format for which there exists a CLI encoder. > > >>Which Linux music players have the most complete play list >>functionality? > > > I don't know. iTunes has spoilt me. ;) > > >>[1] feel free to request this feature or provide other feedback >>regarding iTunes ;-) >>http://www.apple.com/feedback/itunes.html > > > NB: probably the best feature request would be to allow iTunes to encode > using any QuickTime codec available on the system. This will make supporting > any number of codecs very simple (not just OGG, but FLAC, or whatever else > tickles your fancy). -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From kris-y6ukv7ArdSHYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 17 18:57:02 2003 From: kris-y6ukv7ArdSHYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Kristofer Coward) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 13:57:02 -0500 Subject: music collection to ogg vorbis ? In-Reply-To: <20031217165006.GA75234-7r3UYZMxfuqyvPIx3LBjwNHuzzzSOjJt@public.gmane.org> References: <0938AA1A-30B0-11D8-9A66-0003931BD222@foolswisdom.com> <20031217165006.GA75234@idiom.novusordo.net> Message-ID: <20031217185702.GT16763@melon.org> On Wed, Dec 17, 2003 at 09:50:06AM -0700, Taavi Burns wrote: > On Wed, Dec 17, 2003 at 11:42:43AM -0500, Lloyd Budd wrote: > > What is an efficient way to achieve the ripping (+tag) under Linux? > > IIRC grip will snag disc info from freedb and rip with your choice > of filename and filled out ID3 tag, direclty to your favourite > format for which there exists a CLI encoder. > > > Which Linux music players have the most complete play list > > functionality? > > I don't know. iTunes has spoilt me. ;) Spolied by iTunes?!? But it doens't even have native ogg support. -- Kristofer Coward http://unripe.melon.org/ GPG Fingerprint: 2BF3 957D 310A FEEC 4733 830E 21A4 05C7 1FEB 12B3 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From taavi-LbuTpDkqzNzXI80/IeQp7B2eb7JE58TQ at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 17 19:11:37 2003 From: taavi-LbuTpDkqzNzXI80/IeQp7B2eb7JE58TQ at public.gmane.org (Taavi Burns) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 12:11:37 -0700 Subject: music collection to ogg vorbis ? In-Reply-To: <20031217185702.GT16763-y6ukv7ArdSHYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <0938AA1A-30B0-11D8-9A66-0003931BD222@foolswisdom.com> <20031217165006.GA75234@idiom.novusordo.net> <20031217185702.GT16763@melon.org> Message-ID: <20031217191137.GA78982@idiom.novusordo.net> On Wed, Dec 17, 2003 at 01:57:02PM -0500, Kristofer Coward wrote: > > I don't know. iTunes has spoilt me. ;) > > Spolied by iTunes?!? But it doens't even have native ogg support. It PLAYS them well enough (barely). AAC and OGG are both sufficiently better than MP3 for my needs. This may change if/when I procure a superior means to reproduce sound. (shitty earbuds and anything designed as a "computer speaker" do not cut it) -- taa Democracy, taken in its narrower, purely political sense, suffers from the fact that those in economic or political power posess the means for molding public opinion to serve their own class interests. -- Albert Einstein /*eof*/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From andzy-ZTO5kqT2PaM at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 17 21:52:45 2003 From: andzy-ZTO5kqT2PaM at public.gmane.org (Andrew Malcolmson) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 16:52:45 -0500 Subject: [TLUG] (remote) install fest References: <1658.142.214.21.207.1071513294.squirrel@mailbox.samurai.com> <20031216051030.GA2130@node1.opengeometry.net> <20031216205642.GA4553@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Dec 2003 15:56:42 -0500, William Park wrote: > I am interested in thin client aspect. I'm Slackware guy, but there > shouldn't be too much of difference with Debian, as long as XFree86 and > Kernel are uptodate. Yeah, the Linux Terminal Server project is the popular thing for this. > - How many PCs do you have for Linux X-terminal? If you don't have > enough, then multiple cpu-less stations (ie. monitor/keyboard/mouse) > can be set up. 10 or so. There's been a recent donation of low-end P1, 32M machines, perfect for this. > - When do you plan to meet this week? > > Party night tonight, though I'm sure we'll be talking computers. - 6pm All out gearhead night tomorrow - 5 or 6 ish to 9. This is our regular weekly meeting night. Location again: St. Christopher House, Dundas & Ossington, North West corner. TTC: Ossington bus south from Ossington Station or Dundas West streetcar. Ask at the reception for the Bang the Drum area. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 17 22:03:03 2003 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 17:03:03 -0500 Subject: [TLUG] (remote) install fest In-Reply-To: References: <1658.142.214.21.207.1071513294.squirrel@mailbox.samurai.com> <20031216051030.GA2130@node1.opengeometry.net> <20031216205642.GA4553@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <20031217220303.GA961@node1.opengeometry.net> On Wed, Dec 17, 2003 at 04:52:45PM -0500, Andrew Malcolmson wrote: > On Tue, 16 Dec 2003 15:56:42 -0500, William Park wrote: > > > I am interested in thin client aspect. I'm Slackware guy, but there > > shouldn't be too much of difference with Debian, as long as XFree86 > > and Kernel are uptodate. > > Yeah, the Linux Terminal Server project is the popular thing for this. Actually, LTSP, Etherboot, Netboot, Rom-a-matic, and friends are pretty much obsolete now. With PXE support (ie. 3c905), you can boot and mount NFS root; after that, the client is looking at "normal" root tree as it would from local harddisk. > > > - How many PCs do you have for Linux X-terminal? If you don't have > > enough, then multiple cpu-less stations (ie. monitor/keyboard/mouse) > > can be set up. > > 10 or so. There's been a recent donation of low-end P1, 32M machines, > perfect for this. Excellent. -- William Park, Open Geometry Consulting, Linux solution for data management and processing. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jzygmont-tEQKYFGiemxAYG7eUwYNkWD2FQJk+8+b at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 17 22:23:01 2003 From: jzygmont-tEQKYFGiemxAYG7eUwYNkWD2FQJk+8+b at public.gmane.org (Justin Zygmont) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 17:23:01 -0500 (EST) Subject: [TLUG] (remote) install fest In-Reply-To: <20031217220303.GA961-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20031217220303.GA961@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 17 Dec 2003, William Park wrote: > On Wed, Dec 17, 2003 at 04:52:45PM -0500, Andrew Malcolmson wrote: > > On Tue, 16 Dec 2003 15:56:42 -0500, William Park wrote: > > > > > I am interested in thin client aspect. I'm Slackware guy, but there > > > shouldn't be too much of difference with Debian, as long as XFree86 > > > and Kernel are uptodate. > > > > Yeah, the Linux Terminal Server project is the popular thing for this. > > Actually, LTSP, Etherboot, Netboot, Rom-a-matic, and friends are pretty > much obsolete now. With PXE support (ie. 3c905), you can boot and mount > NFS root; after that, the client is looking at "normal" root tree as it > would from local harddisk. I take it this only applies to newer machines? There's a ton of clunkers out there, perfect for a cheap network:) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 16 18:12:47 2003 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter L. Peres) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 20:12:47 +0200 (IST) Subject: ZeroInstall; dare ya ! In-Reply-To: <20031215235618.GA1215-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <3FDBB243.3030904@sympatico.ca> <20031214062527.4b3ec0ec.joehill@sympatico.ca> <3FDD2794.7040200@sympatico.ca> <20031214222427.2d5dfce9.joehill@sympatico.ca> <3FDE44EC.7050409@sympatico.ca> <20031215235618.GA1215@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 15 Dec 2003, William Park wrote: > But, how would you run Vim or LaTeX? You would have to dial out every > time you turn your computer on, no? Is that like doing network install, > every time? It's more like browsing with a proxy. After you browse for a day 90% of the sites you want are in the proxy and you can disconnect and keep using them. Then the remaining 10% will come in slowly, as you need it, when you connect. When you have too many you purge the cache (selectively or not). I like the idea but it practically requires broadband. Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From ssadams-cO7Vpxpd/wCZ9vWoFJJngh2eb7JE58TQ at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 17 22:44:22 2003 From: ssadams-cO7Vpxpd/wCZ9vWoFJJngh2eb7JE58TQ at public.gmane.org (Scott Adams) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 17:44:22 -0500 Subject: Linux Perifinalia (sp) Message-ID: <200312171744.22898.ssadams@ssadams.dyndns.org> Hi all Does anyone know a place in Toronto to buy Linux cups,mugs,shirts and other assorted things . TIA Scott -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 18 02:01:49 2003 From: fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Fraser Campbell) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 21:01:49 -0500 Subject: [TLUG] (remote) install fest In-Reply-To: <20031217220303.GA961-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <1658.142.214.21.207.1071513294.squirrel@mailbox.samurai.com> <20031217220303.GA961@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <200312172101.49975.fraser@wehave.net> On December 17, 2003 05:03 pm, William Park wrote: > Actually, LTSP, Etherboot, Netboot, Rom-a-matic, and friends are pretty > much obsolete now. With PXE support (ie. 3c905), you can boot and mount > NFS root; after that, the client is looking at "normal" root tree as it > would from local harddisk. Incorrect. PXE is about getting a kernel loaded into memory, the same job and purpose as etherboot, netboot or romamatic. PXE facilitates LTSP it definitely does not obsolete it. -- Fraser Campbell http://www.wehave.net/ Georgetown, Ontario, Canada Debian GNU/Linux -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 18 02:58:28 2003 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 21:58:28 -0500 Subject: [TLUG] (remote) install fest In-Reply-To: <200312172101.49975.fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org> References: <1658.142.214.21.207.1071513294.squirrel@mailbox.samurai.com> <20031217220303.GA961@node1.opengeometry.net> <200312172101.49975.fraser@wehave.net> Message-ID: <20031218025828.GA330@node1.opengeometry.net> On Wed, Dec 17, 2003 at 09:01:49PM -0500, Fraser Campbell wrote: > On December 17, 2003 05:03 pm, William Park wrote: > > > Actually, LTSP, Etherboot, Netboot, Rom-a-matic, and friends are > > pretty much obsolete now. With PXE support (ie. 3c905), you can > > boot and mount NFS root; after that, the client is looking at > > "normal" root tree as it would from local harddisk. > > Incorrect. PXE is about getting a kernel loaded into memory, the same > job and purpose as etherboot, netboot or romamatic. PXE facilitates > LTSP it definitely does not obsolete it. Here we go again... After you boot and mount NFS root, you're looking at the root tree that used to be local harddisk (except now it's remote). You tell me why LTSP is necessary. -- William Park, Open Geometry Consulting, Linux solution for data management and processing. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From taavi-LbuTpDkqzNzXI80/IeQp7B2eb7JE58TQ at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 18 04:51:16 2003 From: taavi-LbuTpDkqzNzXI80/IeQp7B2eb7JE58TQ at public.gmane.org (Taavi Burns) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 21:51:16 -0700 Subject: [TLUG] (remote) install fest In-Reply-To: <20031218025828.GA330-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <1658.142.214.21.207.1071513294.squirrel@mailbox.samurai.com> <20031217220303.GA961@node1.opengeometry.net> <200312172101.49975.fraser@wehave.net> <20031218025828.GA330@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <20031218045116.GA95108@idiom.novusordo.net> On Wed, Dec 17, 2003 at 09:58:28PM -0500, William Park wrote: > > Incorrect. PXE is about getting a kernel loaded into memory, the same > > job and purpose as etherboot, netboot or romamatic. PXE facilitates > > LTSP it definitely does not obsolete it. > > Here we go again... After you boot and mount NFS root, you're looking > at the root tree that used to be local harddisk (except now it's > remote). You tell me why LTSP is necessary. Perhaps the workstations are decrepit and/or have too little memory to run apps and X at an appropriate speed. LTSP creates thin clients. Mounting your root filesystem over NFS creates a thick client, which runns all applications locally only saves you the cost of remote administration and hard disks. -- taa The three most dangerous things are a programmer with a soldering iron, a manager who codes, and a user who gets ideas. /*eof*/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 18 05:34:33 2003 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 00:34:33 -0500 Subject: [TLUG] (remote) install fest In-Reply-To: <20031218045116.GA95108-7r3UYZMxfuqyvPIx3LBjwNHuzzzSOjJt@public.gmane.org> References: <1658.142.214.21.207.1071513294.squirrel@mailbox.samurai.com> <20031217220303.GA961@node1.opengeometry.net> <200312172101.49975.fraser@wehave.net> <20031218025828.GA330@node1.opengeometry.net> <20031218045116.GA95108@idiom.novusordo.net> Message-ID: <20031218053433.GA560@node1.opengeometry.net> On Wed, Dec 17, 2003 at 09:51:16PM -0700, Taavi Burns wrote: > On Wed, Dec 17, 2003 at 09:58:28PM -0500, William Park wrote: > > > Incorrect. PXE is about getting a kernel loaded into memory, the same > > > job and purpose as etherboot, netboot or romamatic. PXE facilitates > > > LTSP it definitely does not obsolete it. > > > > Here we go again... After you boot and mount NFS root, you're looking > > at the root tree that used to be local harddisk (except now it's > > remote). You tell me why LTSP is necessary. > > Perhaps the workstations are decrepit and/or have too little > memory to run apps and X at an appropriate speed. LTSP creates > thin clients. Mounting your root filesystem over NFS creates a > thick client, which runns all applications locally only saves you > the cost of remote administration and hard disks. Ah, I see where's the confusion. Once you mount NFS root, you have a "normal" root tree. So, this is no different from your fully loaded computer. How do you get the remote server to open XDM login prompt on your screen. Essentially, you do 'X -query server', right? With X-terminal, we automate this by modifying /etc/inittab. In Slackware, run level 4 is XDM mode and it will run /etc/rc.d/rc.4. You can edit that, or assign unused run level 5 for X-terminal purpose. You can also trim NFS root tree, because once X is up, everything will be run on the server. -- William Park, Open Geometry Consulting, Linux solution for data management and processing. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jason-gaRZxGPHtpBxZtjKW1aY+1aTQe2KTcn/ at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 18 06:14:30 2003 From: jason-gaRZxGPHtpBxZtjKW1aY+1aTQe2KTcn/ at public.gmane.org (Jason Shein) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 01:14:30 -0500 Subject: Linux 2.6.0 Kernel Released Message-ID: <3FE145C6.4050904@pcsecurityonline.com> Linux 2.6.0 Kernel Released http://kernel.org/pub/linux/kernel/v2.6/ChangeLog-2.6.0 Finally it is official :) Let the compiling begin. -- " Eventually people tire of repairing broken Windows, And decide to replace them with something stronger" (o_ //\ Linux - The Choice Of A GNU Generation V_/_ Jason Shein Linux Registered User #281100 jason-gaRZxGPHtpBxZtjKW1aY+1aTQe2KTcn/@public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 18 06:40:48 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 01:40:48 -0500 Subject: Waaaay offtopic Message-ID: <20031218014048.3b0a30c4.joehill@sympatico.ca> I would just like to say, after 3 days of suffering with a temp of 105 and 0 hours of sleep, anyone else who got this flu bug goin' around, you have my *deepest* sympathies. I'm just thankful I got it before Christmas. -- JoeHill ++ ICQ # 280779813 Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "There are three side effects of acid: enhanced long-term memory, decreased short-term memory, and I forget the third."-- Timothy Leary -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 18 09:18:06 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 04:18:06 -0500 Subject: City of Austin Migrates to OO.o (almost) Message-ID: <20031218041806.37bebd84.joehill@sympatico.ca> "The City of Austin recently completed a group of pilot studies on the use of open source software in its day-to-day business. According to a message posted this morning on the Austin LUG mailing list by Scott Brown, the results are in, and as a result, as many as 80% of the city's desktops may be migrating from Microsoft Office to OpenOffice.org." http://www.newsforge.com/article.pl?sid=03/12/17/1440223 -- JoeHill ++ ICQ # 280779813 Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "You tell me it's the institution; Well you know, you better free your mind instead..."-- John Lennon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 18 11:46:04 2003 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 06:46:04 -0500 Subject: Waaaay offtopic In-Reply-To: <20031218014048.3b0a30c4.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <20031218014048.3b0a30c4.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <3FE1937C.5020603@rogers.com> JoeHill wrote: > I would just like to say, after 3 days of suffering with a temp of 105 and 0 > hours of sleep, anyone else who got this flu bug goin' around, you have my > *deepest* sympathies. > > I'm just thankful I got it before Christmas. > Maybe next year, you'll get a flu shot. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 18 12:06:54 2003 From: fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Fraser Campbell) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 07:06:54 -0500 Subject: Waaaay offtopic In-Reply-To: <3FE1937C.5020603-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <20031218014048.3b0a30c4.joehill@sympatico.ca> <3FE1937C.5020603@rogers.com> Message-ID: <200312180706.55676.fraser@wehave.net> On December 18, 2003 06:46 am, James Knott wrote: > Maybe next year, you'll get a flu shot. I got a flu shot this year and within 2 hours I had a 40 degree fever. I was sick for several days. I think I'll be passing on the opportunity next year. -- Fraser Campbell http://www.wehave.net/ Georgetown, Ontario, Canada Debian GNU/Linux -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 18 12:09:13 2003 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 07:09:13 -0500 Subject: Waaaay offtopic In-Reply-To: <3FE1937C.5020603-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <20031218014048.3b0a30c4.joehill@sympatico.ca> <3FE1937C.5020603@rogers.com> Message-ID: <3FE198E9.3030905@alteeve.com> James Knott wrote: > JoeHill wrote: > >> I would just like to say, after 3 days of suffering with a temp of 105 >> and 0 >> hours of sleep, anyone else who got this flu bug goin' around, you >> have my >> *deepest* sympathies. >> >> I'm just thankful I got it before Christmas. >> > > Maybe next year, you'll get a flu shot. I know a lot of people who did who got sick anyway. This years strain seemed to have been missed. I can see you have been taken by the christmas spirit! :) Madison -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From mr6re9-mI4xJ4qlgtBiLUuM0BA3LQ at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 18 12:47:56 2003 From: mr6re9-mI4xJ4qlgtBiLUuM0BA3LQ at public.gmane.org (GDHough) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 07:47:56 -0500 Subject: Waaaay offtopic In-Reply-To: <3FE1937C.5020603-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <20031218014048.3b0a30c4.joehill@sympatico.ca> <3FE1937C.5020603@rogers.com> Message-ID: <200312180747.56996.mr6re9@execulink.com> On Thursday 18 December 2003 06:46, James Knott wrote: > JoeHill wrote: > > I would just like to say, after 3 days of suffering with a temp of 105 > > and 0 hours of sleep, anyone else who got this flu bug goin' around, you > > have my *deepest* sympathies. > > > > I'm just thankful I got it before Christmas. > > Maybe next year, you'll get a flu shot. Maybe next year they'll put the correct strain in the shot and have enough to go around...not that I ever get one myself. -- Eating Crow is better with MyCrowSauce -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From mr6re9-mI4xJ4qlgtBiLUuM0BA3LQ at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 18 13:29:53 2003 From: mr6re9-mI4xJ4qlgtBiLUuM0BA3LQ at public.gmane.org (GDHough) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 08:29:53 -0500 Subject: [Sophisticated Searches] Message-ID: <200312180829.53385.mr6re9@execulink.com> I would like to extract specific information from lines in log files and perform math functions on them. Grep is ok for getting the lines I want and putting them where I want them. But I've reached a limit in what I can do because I lack the education. Two things I need to learn: 1 - How I can search for subnet matches in /var/log/messages, like I can in Ethereal. 2 - How I can extract $omefield (columns?) and print $ame to $omefile after doin $ummath on $omefield. I've been looking at man pages and am thinking awk sort uniq ... am I looking in the right direction? Are there any cautionary comments with shell tools as powerful as awk? What are '.po' files? Thanks, farmer6re9 -- Eating Crow is better with MyCrowSauce -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 18 14:20:32 2003 From: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 09:20:32 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Sophisticated Searches] In-Reply-To: <200312180829.53385.mr6re9-mI4xJ4qlgtBiLUuM0BA3LQ@public.gmane.org> References: <200312180829.53385.mr6re9@execulink.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Dec 2003, GDHough wrote: > 1 - How I can search for subnet matches in /var/log/messages, like I can in > Ethereal. Are you aware of the ability to do regex expressions in grep? This should do exactly what you want. > 2 - How I can extract $omefield (columns?) and print $ame to $omefile after > doin $ummath on $omefield. If I was sticking to shell I'd use "cut" here. > I've been looking at man pages and am thinking awk sort uniq ... am I looking > in the right direction? Are there any cautionary comments with shell tools as > powerful as awk? What are '.po' files? Shell tools tend to have a narrower focus than awk but each is very powerful in what it does. Rob -- Robert Brockway B.Sc. email: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org, zzbrock at uqconnect.net Linux counter project ID #16440 (http://counter.li.org) "The earth is but one country and mankind its citizens" -Baha'u'llah -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 18 14:23:39 2003 From: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 09:23:39 -0500 (EST) Subject: Waaaay offtopic In-Reply-To: <3FE198E9.3030905-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20031218014048.3b0a30c4.joehill@sympatico.ca> <3FE1937C.5020603@rogers.com> <3FE198E9.3030905@alteeve.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Dec 2003, Madison Kelly wrote: > I know a lot of people who did who got sick anyway. This years strain > seemed to have been missed. I can see you have been taken by the That was reported on the TV news a few days ago iirc, although they did say a strain "similar" to this year's the major flu was included. Yay :) I don't believe this is a case of anyone being inept. From what I understand, figuring out which flu will be the serious one in any given year can be a matter of guess work, and as a result they can get it wrong. Rob -- Robert Brockway B.Sc. email: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org, zzbrock at uqconnect.net Linux counter project ID #16440 (http://counter.li.org) "The earth is but one country and mankind its citizens" -Baha'u'llah -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 18 14:31:32 2003 From: fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Fraser Campbell) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 09:31:32 -0500 Subject: [Sophisticated Searches] In-Reply-To: <200312180829.53385.mr6re9-mI4xJ4qlgtBiLUuM0BA3LQ@public.gmane.org> References: <200312180829.53385.mr6re9@execulink.com> Message-ID: <200312180931.32960.fraser@wehave.net> On Thursday 18 December 2003 08:29, GDHough wrote: > I would like to extract specific information from lines in log files and > perform math functions on them. Grep is ok for getting the lines I want and > putting them where I want them. But I've reached a limit in what I can do > because I lack the education. > > Two things I need to learn: > > 1 - How I can search for subnet matches in /var/log/messages, like I can in > Ethereal. > > 2 - How I can extract $omefield (columns?) and print $ame to $omefile after > doin $ummath on $omefield. While you can do everything you want with various shell tools you'll probably find it much easier to use a higher-level (?) scripting language; perl or whatever alternative you prefer. -- Fraser Campbell http://www.wehave.net/ Georgetown, Ontario, Canada Debian GNU/Linux -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cmb-h7HJ8Pof2EbbR28j2ZUwYgC/G2K4zDHf at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 18 14:31:47 2003 From: cmb-h7HJ8Pof2EbbR28j2ZUwYgC/G2K4zDHf at public.gmane.org (Charly Baker) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 09:31:47 -0500 Subject: Waaaay offtopic In-Reply-To: References: <20031218014048.3b0a30c4.joehill@sympatico.ca> <3FE198E9.3030905@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <200312180931.49591.cmb@fivefortyfour.com> Apparantly flu virus detection and removal is similar to the problem of detecting and removing real (computer) viruses. They change all the time, and if you don't have the latest signature, then you aren't covered for the latest virus. Maybe the flu shot people let their subscription lapse. Charly Baker On Thursday 18 December 2003 9:23 am, Robert Brockway wrote: > On Thu, 18 Dec 2003, Madison Kelly wrote: > > I know a lot of people who did who got sick anyway. This years strain > > seemed to have been missed. I can see you have been taken by the > > That was reported on the TV news a few days ago iirc, although they did > say a strain "similar" to this year's the major flu was included. Yay :) > > I don't believe this is a case of anyone being inept. From what I > understand, figuring out which flu will be the serious one in any given > year can be a matter of guess work, and as a result they can get it wrong. > > Rob -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 18 14:48:24 2003 From: fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Fraser Campbell) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 09:48:24 -0500 Subject: [TLUG] (remote) install fest In-Reply-To: <20031218025828.GA330-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <1658.142.214.21.207.1071513294.squirrel@mailbox.samurai.com> <200312172101.49975.fraser@wehave.net> <20031218025828.GA330@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <200312180948.24606.fraser@wehave.net> On Wednesday 17 December 2003 21:58, William Park wrote: > > Incorrect. PXE is about getting a kernel loaded into memory, the same > > job and purpose as etherboot, netboot or romamatic. PXE facilitates > > LTSP it definitely does not obsolete it. > > Here we go again... After you boot and mount NFS root, you're looking > at the root tree that used to be local harddisk (except now it's > remote). You tell me why LTSP is necessary. My main point was that PXE doesn't obsolete LTSP, how you get a kernel to your diskless workstation is irrelevant to the system you're booting (be that LTSP or whatever you're suggesting).. It's quite possible that I misunderstand what your saying can be done. If you boot a diskless workstation from "bigserver" are you suggesting that bigserver's / filesystem should be mounted as / on diskless workstation? If so (correct me where I am wrong) you would have to modify countless items on the server's root filesystem to make it work correctly: - /etc would be shared ... do you write a pile of custom init scripts for handling things that need changing depending on whether / is being mounted locally or by nfs? - how do you handle writable dirs such as /tmp, /var/tmp and /var/log ... do you just let both diskless workstations and bigserver write to them as they see fit (sounds like a nightmare to me) Regardless of whether you're talking about mounting server / on client / or /server/somerootfs as / on client the advantage of LTSP is that all the hacking you need to do to get it working smoothly has been done for you. Perhaps you can walk me through how you configure a diskless client so that I understand what you mean? -- Fraser Campbell http://www.wehave.net/ Georgetown, Ontario, Canada Debian GNU/Linux -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From taavi-LbuTpDkqzNzXI80/IeQp7B2eb7JE58TQ at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 18 14:59:07 2003 From: taavi-LbuTpDkqzNzXI80/IeQp7B2eb7JE58TQ at public.gmane.org (Taavi Burns) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 07:59:07 -0700 Subject: [TLUG] (remote) install fest In-Reply-To: <20031218053433.GA560-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <1658.142.214.21.207.1071513294.squirrel@mailbox.samurai.com> <20031217220303.GA961@node1.opengeometry.net> <200312172101.49975.fraser@wehave.net> <20031218025828.GA330@node1.opengeometry.net> <20031218045116.GA95108@idiom.novusordo.net> <20031218053433.GA560@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <20031218145907.GB12388@idiom.novusordo.net> On Thu, Dec 18, 2003 at 12:34:33AM -0500, William Park wrote: > Ah, I see where's the confusion. Once you mount NFS root, you have a > "normal" root tree. So, this is no different from your fully loaded > computer. How do you get the remote server to open XDM login prompt on > your screen. Essentially, you do 'X -query server', right? Yup! > With X-terminal, we automate this by modifying /etc/inittab. In > Slackware, run level 4 is XDM mode and it will run /etc/rc.d/rc.4. You > can edit that, or assign unused run level 5 for X-terminal purpose. You > can also trim NFS root tree, because once X is up, everything will be > run on the server. This is where Fraser's comment comes in. Yes, we can do the XDM bits in /etc/inittab on the mounted NFS filesystem and all... But why not use the LTSP packages for client kernel/BOOTP server/NFS configuration/server X configuration/maybe some specialised admin tools? That's all LTSP is: diskless NFS-rooted X terminals plus server in a pretty set of packages. :) -- taa "One measure of sanity is how closely one's internal representation of the world really resembles the world. By this measure humans are at least quite unsane." -- Ad Krzybsk /*eof*/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 18 15:01:23 2003 From: davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (David J Patrick) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 10:01:23 -0500 Subject: ZeroInstall; dare ya ! In-Reply-To: References: <3FDBB243.3030904@sympatico.ca> <20031214062527.4b3ec0ec.joehill@sympatico.ca> <3FDD2794.7040200@sympatico.ca> <20031214222427.2d5dfce9.joehill@sympatico.ca> <3FDE44EC.7050409@sympatico.ca> <20031215235618.GA1215@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <3FE1C143.9090006@sympatico.ca> Peter L. Peres wrote: >On Mon, 15 Dec 2003, William Park wrote: > > > >>But, how would you run Vim or LaTeX? You would have to dial out every >>time you turn your computer on, no? Is that like doing network install, >>every time? >> >> > >It's more like browsing with a proxy. After you browse for a day 90% of >the sites you want are in the proxy and you can disconnect and keep using >them. Then the remaining 10% will come in slowly, as you need it, when you >connect. When you have too many you purge the cache (selectively or not). >I like the idea but it practically requires broadband. > >Peter > > The difference there is that with web content, you want _todays_ news, but for applications, _this month_ is often OK. meaning that you only have to refresh the application cache when you intend to "upgrade". -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 18 15:06:33 2003 From: davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (David J Patrick) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 10:06:33 -0500 Subject: Linux 2.6.0 Kernel Released In-Reply-To: <3FE145C6.4050904-gaRZxGPHtpBxZtjKW1aY+1aTQe2KTcn/@public.gmane.org> References: <3FE145C6.4050904@pcsecurityonline.com> Message-ID: <3FE1C279.1070205@sympatico.ca> Jason Shein wrote: > Linux 2.6.0 Kernel Released > > http://kernel.org/pub/linux/kernel/v2.6/ChangeLog-2.6.0 > > Finally it is official :) > > Let the compiling begin. > > Yahoo ! I'll be following (http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=2949) *The Very Verbose Guide to Updating and Compiling Your Debian Kernel unless some body out there has a better guide OR is capable of / wants to compile custom kernels remote via ssl WOW what a sservice that would be, eh ? djp * -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From emmajane-MHIYrZpDPrNWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 18 15:22:09 2003 From: emmajane-MHIYrZpDPrNWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Emma Jane Hogbin) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 10:22:09 -0500 (EST) Subject: Linux 2.6.0 Kernel Released In-Reply-To: <3FE1C279.1070205-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FE145C6.4050904@pcsecurityonline.com> <3FE1C279.1070205@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <3851.65.95.121.198.1071760929.squirrel@mailbox.samurai.com> David J Patrick said: > I'll be following (http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=2949) > *The Very Verbose Guide to Updating and Compiling Your Debian Kernel That one's good....but if you're already running a properly configured kernel, why not just use "make oldconfig"? This allows you to use your current config file as a base for your new system. It'll run you through all the changes in the new kernel (and give you a suggested default). In terms of other resources, I like this one: http://newbiedoc.sourceforge.net/system/kernel-pkg.html Took me a while to understand everything that was in it (and it is exclusive to Debian). As it suggests up near the top--read the whole thing BEFORE you start compiling. There are steps near the end which are optional and should actually be done at the beginning. emma -- Emma Jane Hogbin Xtrinsic -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 18 15:40:35 2003 From: fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Fraser Campbell) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 10:40:35 -0500 Subject: Linux 2.6.0 Kernel Released In-Reply-To: <3FE1C279.1070205-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FE145C6.4050904@pcsecurityonline.com> <3FE1C279.1070205@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <200312181040.35075.fraser@wehave.net> On Thursday 18 December 2003 10:06, David J Patrick wrote: > *The Very Verbose Guide to Updating and Compiling Your Debian Kernel > unless some body out there has a better guide How about this? Add the following line to /etc/apt/source.list: deb http://www.backports.org/debian/ woody /kernel-image-2.6.0-test9-i386/ Then: apt-get update && apt-get install kernel-image-2.6.0-test9-i386 It's only test9 but close enough IMO, I've been running the test kernels since test2, no problems. They'll likely have 2.6.0 out quickly so if you want to wait just keep an eye on their package list (http://www.backports.org/debian/dists/stable/). -- Fraser Campbell http://www.wehave.net/ Georgetown, Ontario, Canada Debian GNU/Linux -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 18 15:43:05 2003 From: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 10:43:05 -0500 (EST) Subject: Waaaay offtopic In-Reply-To: <200312180931.49591.cmb-h7HJ8Pof2EbbR28j2ZUwYgC/G2K4zDHf@public.gmane.org> References: <20031218014048.3b0a30c4.joehill@sympatico.ca> <3FE198E9.3030905@alteeve.com> <200312180931.49591.cmb@fivefortyfour.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Dec 2003, Charly Baker wrote: > Apparantly flu virus detection and removal is similar to the problem of > detecting and removing real (computer) viruses. They change all the time, It many ways it is actually :) Computer virus detection s/w tends to look for specific signatures although s/w also exists which detects the general signature of viruses (in terms of activity, etc). Similarly an organisms defences against viruses are divided into "Specific" and "Non-specific" immune responses, representing the body's ability to react against known and unknown viruses, respectively. Rob -- Robert Brockway B.Sc. email: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org, zzbrock at uqconnect.net Linux counter project ID #16440 (http://counter.li.org) "The earth is but one country and mankind its citizens" -Baha'u'llah -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 18 15:54:41 2003 From: davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (David J Patrick) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 10:54:41 -0500 Subject: Linux 2.6.0 Kernel Released In-Reply-To: <3851.65.95.121.198.1071760929.squirrel-cl+VPiYnx/2AJ8SbLfX5JEEOCMrvLtNR@public.gmane.org> References: <3FE145C6.4050904@pcsecurityonline.com> <3FE1C279.1070205@sympatico.ca> <3851.65.95.121.198.1071760929.squirrel@mailbox.samurai.com> Message-ID: <3FE1CDC1.2010800@sympatico.ca> Emma Jane Hogbin wrote: >David J Patrick said: > > >> I'll be following (http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=2949) >> *The Very Verbose Guide to Updating and Compiling Your Debian Kernel >> >> > >That one's good....but if you're already running a properly configured >kernel, why not just use "make oldconfig"? This allows you to use your >current config file as a base for your new system. It'll run you through >all the changes in the new kernel (and give you a suggested default). > > Actually, my existing kernel config is quite botched; modules I don't want/ need, modules I want ( 0install ! ) and alsa broken. Y'see, I never really grokked modutils et al. A fresh setup is what I'm after, I'll just save this one as a backup. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 18 15:55:42 2003 From: davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (David J Patrick) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 10:55:42 -0500 Subject: Linux 2.6.0 Kernel Released In-Reply-To: <200312181040.35075.fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FE145C6.4050904@pcsecurityonline.com> <3FE1C279.1070205@sympatico.ca> <200312181040.35075.fraser@wehave.net> Message-ID: <3FE1CDFE.1060901@sympatico.ca> Fraser Campbell wrote: >On Thursday 18 December 2003 10:06, David J Patrick wrote: > > > >> *The Very Verbose Guide to Updating and Compiling Your Debian Kernel >>unless some body out there has a better guide >> >> > >How about this? Add the following line to /etc/apt/source.list: > > deb http://www.backports.org/debian/ woody /kernel-image-2.6.0-test9-i386/ > >Then: > > apt-get update && apt-get install kernel-image-2.6.0-test9-i386 > >It's only test9 but close enough IMO, I've been running the test kernels since >test2, no problems. They'll likely have 2.6.0 out quickly so if you want to >wait just keep an eye on their package list >(http://www.backports.org/debian/dists/stable/). > > > Good to obtain the image, but I would still have to compile it, no ? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 18 16:11:44 2003 From: fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Fraser Campbell) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 11:11:44 -0500 Subject: Linux 2.6.0 Kernel Released In-Reply-To: <3FE1CDFE.1060901-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FE145C6.4050904@pcsecurityonline.com> <200312181040.35075.fraser@wehave.net> <3FE1CDFE.1060901@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <200312181111.44984.fraser@wehave.net> On Thursday 18 December 2003 10:55, David J Patrick wrote: > >It's only test9 but close enough IMO, I've been running the test kernels > > since test2, no problems. They'll likely have 2.6.0 out quickly so if > > you want to wait just keep an eye on their package list > >(http://www.backports.org/debian/dists/stable/). > > > Good to obtain the image, but I would still have to compile it, no ? No that is the compiled kernel, dependencies such as the new module-init-tools will be automatically installed along with it and init scripts modified appropriately so that the 2.4 or 2.6 version of modprobe will get called depending on the kernel you are running. -- Fraser Campbell http://www.wehave.net/ Georgetown, Ontario, Canada Debian GNU/Linux -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jay-ZPnsNkHkFjk at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 18 17:05:36 2003 From: jay-ZPnsNkHkFjk at public.gmane.org (Jason Carson) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 12:05:36 -0500 (EST) Subject: Waaaay offtopic In-Reply-To: <20031218014048.3b0a30c4.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <20031218014048.3b0a30c4.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <38264.66.11.182.5.1071767136.squirrel@cbits.ca> Yep, I had it too, try studying for a final in biochemistry with it.. pure torture! > > I would just like to say, after 3 days of suffering with a temp of 105 and > 0 > hours of sleep, anyone else who got this flu bug goin' around, you have my > *deepest* sympathies. > > I'm just thankful I got it before Christmas. > > -- > JoeHill ++ ICQ # 280779813 > Registered Linux user #282046 > Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > "There are three side effects of acid: enhanced long-term memory, > decreased > short-term memory, and I forget the third."-- Timothy Leary > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 18 17:20:52 2003 From: henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org (Henry Spencer) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 12:20:52 -0500 (EST) Subject: Waaaay offtopic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Dec 2003, Robert Brockway wrote: > > I know a lot of people who did who got sick anyway. This years strain > > seemed to have been missed... > > ...I don't believe this is a case of anyone being inept. From what I > understand, figuring out which flu will be the serious one in any given > year can be a matter of guess work, and as a result they can get it wrong. Also, something that people often don't understand is that many vaccines do not provide foolproof protection against even the exact strain they are made for. They greatly *reduce* the odds of getting the bug, and if you do get it they tend to reduce its severity, but they don't necessarily preclude infection completely. (Notably, even if you are properly vaccinated against smallpox, if you are heavily exposed to it, you can come down with a mild case.) Henry Spencer henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jzygmont-tEQKYFGiemxAYG7eUwYNkWD2FQJk+8+b at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 18 17:51:13 2003 From: jzygmont-tEQKYFGiemxAYG7eUwYNkWD2FQJk+8+b at public.gmane.org (Justin Zygmont) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 12:51:13 -0500 (EST) Subject: Waaaay offtopic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Dec 2003, Robert Brockway wrote: > On Thu, 18 Dec 2003, Madison Kelly wrote: > > > I know a lot of people who did who got sick anyway. This years strain > > seemed to have been missed. I can see you have been taken by the > > That was reported on the TV news a few days ago iirc, although they did > say a strain "similar" to this year's the major flu was included. Yay :) > > I don't believe this is a case of anyone being inept. From what I > understand, figuring out which flu will be the serious one in any given > year can be a matter of guess work, and as a result they can get it wrong. I remember about 2 years ago I caught a wicked flu and it wasn't going away. When I did finally get over it, I barely got another one since. I guess that can be the best defence sometimes. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 18 18:39:19 2003 From: henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org (Henry Spencer) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 13:39:19 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Sophisticated Searches] In-Reply-To: <200312180829.53385.mr6re9-mI4xJ4qlgtBiLUuM0BA3LQ@public.gmane.org> References: <200312180829.53385.mr6re9@execulink.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Dec 2003, GDHough wrote: > 1 - How I can search for subnet matches in /var/log/messages, like I can in > Ethereal. Carefully-crafted regular expressions (as in, e.g., Awk and Perl) can do a lot of this, but it's somewhat inconvenient. You really want a tool that's aware of Internet addresses and can manipulate them as such. I'm sure somebody's got a library for that in Perl... > 2 - How I can extract $omefield (columns?) and print $ame to $omefile after > doin $ummath on $omefield. This is definitely a job for Awk (if it's something not too complicated) or Perl (if you need library support for things like address manipulation). Awk is simpler and cleaner and easier to learn, but more limited, not least because it has no equivalent of Perl's enormous variety of libraries. Henry Spencer henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lalune-zC6tqtfhjqE at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 18 18:52:43 2003 From: lalune-zC6tqtfhjqE at public.gmane.org (Anita T.) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 13:52:43 -0500 Subject: Linux Perifinalia (sp) In-Reply-To: <200312171744.22898.ssadams-cO7Vpxpd/wCZ9vWoFJJngh2eb7JE58TQ@public.gmane.org> References: <200312171744.22898.ssadams@ssadams.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <3FE1F77B.4080501@linux.ca> Scott Adams wrote: > Does anyone know a place in Toronto to buy Linux cups,mugs,shirts and other > assorted things . Geekstreet has Linux caps and shirts. http://www.geekstreet.ca/geekgear.php Anita -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 18 18:53:41 2003 From: henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org (Henry Spencer) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 13:53:41 -0500 (EST) Subject: City of Austin Migrates to OO.o (almost) In-Reply-To: <20031218041806.37bebd84.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <20031218041806.37bebd84.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Dec 2003, JoeHill wrote: > "The City of Austin recently completed a group of pilot studies on the > use of open source software in its day-to-day business. According to a > message posted this morning on the Austin LUG mailing list by Scott > Brown, the results are in, and as a result, as many as 80% of the > city's desktops may be migrating from Microsoft Office to > OpenOffice.org." > http://www.newsforge.com/article.pl?sid=03/12/17/1440223 Note that the article now includes an update with comments from the city's CIO, saying that the pilot studies are *not* yet complete, e.g.: Collins stressed to us that "The intent is not to replace the entire city with OpenOffice at this moment in time." His major concern is that our story was misleading the public into thinking "the results are totally in, because they are not." Henry Spencer henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 18 18:55:58 2003 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 13:55:58 -0500 Subject: High-Availability Message-ID: <3FE1F83E.7060009@alteeve.com> Hi all, I am working on developing a small cluster of servers and I was (am) looking at LVS (Linux Virtual Server) and it -seems-- to be able to do exactly what I want. That is; create a server cluster transparent to the user for hosting mail, web, file serving and LAN authentication. Why I am posting though is that most of the pages off of http://linux-ha.org seem to be a few years out. Am I missing any more modern options, by chance? Does anyone have any general comments or suggestions for what I am trying to do? Thanks!! Madison -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 18 19:09:28 2003 From: fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Fraser Campbell) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 14:09:28 -0500 Subject: [Sophisticated Searches] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200312181409.28192.fraser@wehave.net> On Thursday 18 December 2003 13:39, Henry Spencer wrote: > that's aware of Internet addresses and can manipulate them as such. I'm > sure somebody's got a library for that in Perl... Net::IPv4Addr ... use Net::IPv4Addr qw( :all ); $logline = 'asdf 43tr gerag fdgdgf 34.23.45.222'; if ($ip = ipv4_checkip($logline) ) { print "$ip\n"; } -- Fraser Campbell http://www.wehave.net/ Georgetown, Ontario, Canada Debian GNU/Linux -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 18 19:10:56 2003 From: fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Fraser Campbell) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 14:10:56 -0500 Subject: Linux Perifinalia (sp) In-Reply-To: <3FE1F77B.4080501-zC6tqtfhjqE@public.gmane.org> References: <200312171744.22898.ssadams@ssadams.dyndns.org> <3FE1F77B.4080501@linux.ca> Message-ID: <200312181410.56149.fraser@wehave.net> On Thursday 18 December 2003 13:52, Anita T. wrote: > Geekstreet has Linux caps and shirts. > http://www.geekstreet.ca/geekgear.php But you don't have Debian shirts :-( -- Fraser Campbell http://www.wehave.net/ Georgetown, Ontario, Canada Debian GNU/Linux -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From dgenn-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 18 19:30:13 2003 From: dgenn-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (DanG) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 14:30:13 -0500 Subject: High-Availability In-Reply-To: <3FE1F83E.7060009-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <3FE1F83E.7060009@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <20031218192840.SJIB132452.fep01-mail.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com@pittlandctr8at> LVS is a very good software package that is constantly under development and use. linux-ha.org works with LVS collaboratively. http://oscar.openclustergroup.org/tiki-index.php OSCAR is another open source project for cluster builds you should look at. If you want an easy cluster to setup and administer I would look at ClusterKnoppix which is based on the Knoppix liveCD with OpenMosix clustering integrated. This should make for a pretty easy install/setup http://bofh.be/clusterknoppix/ -----Original Message----- From: owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org [mailto:owner-tlug at ss.org] On Behalf Of Madison Kelly Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2003 1:56 PM To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Subject: [TLUG]: High-Availability Hi all, I am working on developing a small cluster of servers and I was (am) looking at LVS (Linux Virtual Server) and it -seems-- to be able to do exactly what I want. That is; create a server cluster transparent to the user for hosting mail, web, file serving and LAN authentication. Why I am posting though is that most of the pages off of http://linux-ha.org seem to be a few years out. Am I missing any more modern options, by chance? Does anyone have any general comments or suggestions for what I am trying to do? Thanks!! Madison -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 18 19:29:57 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 14:29:57 -0500 Subject: City of Austin Migrates to OO.o (almost) In-Reply-To: References: <20031218041806.37bebd84.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <20031218142957.3f04719a.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Thu, 18 Dec 2003 13:53:41 -0500 (EST) Henry Spencer wrote: > Note that the article now includes an update with comments from the city's > CIO, saying that the pilot studies are *not* yet complete, e.g.: > > Collins stressed to us that "The intent is not to replace the entire city > with OpenOffice at this moment in time." His major concern is that our > story was misleading the public into thinking "the results are totally in, > because they are not." Hence the "almost" in the subject of my post ;-) -- JoeHill ++ ICQ # 280779813 Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "You tell me it's the institution; Well you know, you better free your mind instead..."-- John Lennon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 18 19:31:13 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 14:31:13 -0500 Subject: Waaaay offtopic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20031218143113.2e3a287b.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Thu, 18 Dec 2003 12:51:13 -0500 (EST) Justin Zygmont wrote: > I remember about 2 years ago I caught a wicked flu and it wasn't going > away. When I did finally get over it, I barely got another one since. I > guess that can be the best defence sometimes. That's what I'm hoping. I'd rather make out with Steve Ballmer than go through that again. -- JoeHill ++ ICQ # 280779813 Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "Well, he might as well have been bombing Denmark." -- Gore Vidal, on the bombing of Afghanistan after 9/11 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 18 19:36:16 2003 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 14:36:16 -0500 Subject: High-Availability In-Reply-To: <20031218192840.SJIB132452.fep01-mail.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com-9xB6k4dNltmkzIdawFaobA@public.gmane.org> References: <20031218192840.SJIB132452.fep01-mail.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com@pittlandctr8at> Message-ID: <3FE201B0.5070100@alteeve.com> Thank you for the leads! Madison DanG wrote: > LVS is a very good software package that is constantly under development and > use. linux-ha.org works with LVS collaboratively. > http://oscar.openclustergroup.org/tiki-index.php OSCAR is another open > source project for cluster builds you should look at. If you want an easy > cluster to setup and administer I would look at ClusterKnoppix which is > based on the Knoppix liveCD with OpenMosix clustering integrated. This > should make for a pretty easy install/setup http://bofh.be/clusterknoppix/ > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org [mailto:owner-tlug at ss.org] On Behalf Of Madison > Kelly > Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2003 1:56 PM > To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > Subject: [TLUG]: High-Availability > > Hi all, > > I am working on developing a small cluster of servers and I was (am) > looking at LVS (Linux Virtual Server) and it -seems-- to be able to do > exactly what I want. That is; create a server cluster transparent to the > user for hosting mail, web, file serving and LAN authentication. > > Why I am posting though is that most of the pages off of > http://linux-ha.org seem to be a few years out. Am I missing any more modern > options, by chance? Does anyone have any general comments or suggestions for > what I am trying to do? > > Thanks!! > > Madison -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lalune-zC6tqtfhjqE at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 18 20:07:39 2003 From: lalune-zC6tqtfhjqE at public.gmane.org (Anita T.) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 15:07:39 -0500 Subject: Linux Perifinalia (sp) In-Reply-To: <200312181410.56149.fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org> References: <200312171744.22898.ssadams@ssadams.dyndns.org> <3FE1F77B.4080501@linux.ca> <200312181410.56149.fraser@wehave.net> Message-ID: <3FE2090B.1080205@linux.ca> Fraser Campbell wrote: > But you don't have Debian shirts :-( I could personally paint a pretty red swirl on it for you :) Anita -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 18 20:06:57 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 15:06:57 -0500 Subject: Waaaay offtopic In-Reply-To: <38264.66.11.182.5.1071767136.squirrel-ZPnsNkHkFjk@public.gmane.org> References: <20031218014048.3b0a30c4.joehill@sympatico.ca> <38264.66.11.182.5.1071767136.squirrel@cbits.ca> Message-ID: <20031218150657.4c3711c7.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Thu, 18 Dec 2003 12:05:36 -0500 (EST) "Jason Carson" wrote: > Yep, I had it too, try studying for a final in biochemistry with it.. pure > torture! Can't even begin to comprehend...nor can I imagine what it's like for people with *real* serious illnesses. Jeez, I was thinkin' I was suffering til I thought of all those people in hospitals in the cancer ward. I am *never* going to complain about a headache again. -- JoeHill ++ ICQ # 280779813 Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "Behind every great fortune is a crime." -- Balzac -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 18 20:27:34 2003 From: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 15:27:34 -0500 (EST) Subject: High-Availability In-Reply-To: <20031218192840.SJIB132452.fep01-mail.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com-9xB6k4dNltmkzIdawFaobA@public.gmane.org> References: <20031218192840.SJIB132452.fep01-mail.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com@pittlandctr8at> Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Dec 2003, DanG wrote: > LVS is a very good software package that is constantly under development and > use. linux-ha.org works with LVS collaboratively. > http://oscar.openclustergroup.org/tiki-index.php OSCAR is another open > source project for cluster builds you should look at. If you want an easy > cluster to setup and administer I would look at ClusterKnoppix which is > based on the Knoppix liveCD with OpenMosix clustering integrated. This > should make for a pretty easy install/setup http://bofh.be/clusterknoppix/ Clustering is one of those terms which maybe a bit over-used in computing. OpenMosix is not a tool that will supply HA, it is a load sharing system. If an OpenMosix node dies then data is lost, plain & simple. Infact right now a process running under OM is susceptible to loss of the original node _or_ the node the data moves too. Rob -- Robert Brockway B.Sc. email: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org, zzbrock at uqconnect.net Linux counter project ID #16440 (http://counter.li.org) "The earth is but one country and mankind its citizens" -Baha'u'llah -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From dgenn-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 18 21:09:58 2003 From: dgenn-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (DanG) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 16:09:58 -0500 Subject: High-Availability In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20031218210827.TPWH132452.fep01-mail.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com@pittlandctr8at> Yes that is true. OpenMosix was designed as an SSI ("Single system image") cluster primarily as a load balancer. However there is a perl module developed at CPAN OpenMosix::HA adding a single inittab structure and HA capabilities for OpenMosix clusters with heartbeat capability. See below NAME OpenMosix::HA -- High Availability (HA) layer for an openMosix cluster SYNOPSIS use OpenMosix::HA; my $ha = new OpenMosix::HA; # spawn all apps for resource group "foo", runlevel "run" $ha->tell("foo","run"); # spawn all apps for resource group "foo", runlevel "runmore" # (this stops everything started by runlevel "run") $ha->tell("foo","runmore"); # get status of all resource groups $ha->status(); DESCRIPTION This module provides basic "init" functionality, giving you a single inittab-like file to manage daemon startup and restart across a cluster of openMosix machines. This gives you a high-availability cluster with low hardware overhead. In contrast to traditional HA clusters, we use the openMosix cluster membership facility to provide heartbeat and to detect network partitions. All you need to do is build a relatively conventional openMosix cluster, install this module, and configure it to start and manage your HA processes. There is no need to use the heartbeat serial cables, spare ethernet cards, or high-end server machines which traditional HA requires. There is no need for chained SCSI buses -- you can share disks among many nodes via any number of other current technologies, including SAN, NAS, GFS, or Firewire (IEEE-1394). -----Original Message----- From: owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org [mailto:owner-tlug at ss.org] On Behalf Of Robert Brockway Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2003 3:28 PM To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Subject: RE: [TLUG]: High-Availability On Thu, 18 Dec 2003, DanG wrote: > LVS is a very good software package that is constantly under > development and use. linux-ha.org works with LVS collaboratively. > http://oscar.openclustergroup.org/tiki-index.php OSCAR is another open > source project for cluster builds you should look at. If you want an > easy cluster to setup and administer I would look at ClusterKnoppix > which is based on the Knoppix liveCD with OpenMosix clustering > integrated. This should make for a pretty easy install/setup > http://bofh.be/clusterknoppix/ Clustering is one of those terms which maybe a bit over-used in computing. OpenMosix is not a tool that will supply HA, it is a load sharing system. If an OpenMosix node dies then data is lost, plain & simple. Infact right now a process running under OM is susceptible to loss of the original node _or_ the node the data moves too. Rob -- Robert Brockway B.Sc. email: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org, zzbrock at uqconnect.net Linux counter project ID #16440 (http://counter.li.org) "The earth is but one country and mankind its citizens" -Baha'u'llah -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lists-tZhE6lH4Esk+k03BA+Hq9g at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 18 21:27:59 2003 From: lists-tZhE6lH4Esk+k03BA+Hq9g at public.gmane.org (Oliver Meyn) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 16:27:59 -0500 Subject: music collection to ogg vorbis ? In-Reply-To: <20031217165006.GA75234-7r3UYZMxfuqyvPIx3LBjwNHuzzzSOjJt@public.gmane.org> References: <0938AA1A-30B0-11D8-9A66-0003931BD222@foolswisdom.com> <20031217165006.GA75234@idiom.novusordo.net> Message-ID: <1071782879.4306.4.camel@theconstruct.mineallmeyn.net> On Wed, 2003-12-17 at 11:50, Taavi Burns wrote: > On Wed, Dec 17, 2003 at 11:42:43AM -0500, Lloyd Budd wrote: > > What is an efficient way to achieve the ripping (+tag) under Linux? > > IIRC grip will snag disc info from freedb and rip with your choice > of filename and filled out ID3 tag, direclty to your favourite > format for which there exists a CLI encoder. > If you have a big enough collection to warrant it, the grip guy has also written ddj which is a dbase frontend for all the info grip (optionally) sticks into a mysql dbase. It's missing some key features (eg text search) but it'll do til I write my own :) Note it also allows you to pick your favourite command line player. Cheers, Oliver -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From mr6re9-mI4xJ4qlgtBiLUuM0BA3LQ at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 19 00:53:55 2003 From: mr6re9-mI4xJ4qlgtBiLUuM0BA3LQ at public.gmane.org (GDHough) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 19:53:55 -0500 Subject: [Sophisticated Searches] In-Reply-To: <200312181409.28192.fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org> References: <200312181409.28192.fraser@wehave.net> Message-ID: <200312181953.55971.mr6re9@execulink.com> On Thursday 18 December 2003 14:09, Fraser Campbell wrote: > On Thursday 18 December 2003 13:39, Henry Spencer wrote: > > that's aware of Internet addresses and can manipulate them as such. I'm > > sure somebody's got a library for that in Perl... > > Net::IPv4Addr ... > > use Net::IPv4Addr qw( :all ); > $logline = 'asdf 43tr gerag fdgdgf 34.23.45.222'; > if ($ip = ipv4_checkip($logline) ) { > print "$ip\n"; > } OK, fine...I'll try to teach myself some perl over the winter. Is the above going to give me what I want; a subnet match? I know how to tell iptables to drop all packets from a single IPv4Addr or it's assigned subnet. iptables -I OUTPUT -p udp -d 209.239.224.0/19 -j drop-and-log-it iptables -I OUTPUT -p tcp -d 209.239.0.7 -j drop-and-log-it Now I may have 100k IPv4Addr addresses in a single log file or multiple preprocessed files and I want only the lines in which the IPv4Addr belongs to 209.239.224.0/19, then either print to stdout or a file. This entire excersise I am doing betwix two machines using only ssh and sftp. I aim to preprocess some of the data on the server before transferring over for more detailed analysis. Can anyone recommend a good book for learning perl from scrath? -- Eating Crow is better with MyCrowSauce -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 19 01:22:23 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 20:22:23 -0500 Subject: When will the persecution of MS *end*?! Message-ID: <20031218202223.397ba155.joehill@sympatico.ca> "Microsoft Corp. was hit Thursday with yet another antitrust lawsuit, this one accusing the software giant of illegally monopolizing the growing field of digital music and video. RealNetworks Inc. said Microsoft illegally tied its Windows Media Player software with copies of the ubiquitous Windows operating system, whether Windows users want Microsoft's player or not." Link: http://www.salon.com/tech/wire/2003/12/18/microsoft/index.html -- JoeHill ++ ICQ # 280779813 Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "The philosophers have only interpreted the world in various ways. The point, however, is to change it."-- Karl Marx -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From mr6re9-mI4xJ4qlgtBiLUuM0BA3LQ at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 19 01:34:37 2003 From: mr6re9-mI4xJ4qlgtBiLUuM0BA3LQ at public.gmane.org (GDHough) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 20:34:37 -0500 Subject: Waaaay offtopic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200312182034.37527.mr6re9@execulink.com> On Thursday 18 December 2003 12:20, Henry Spencer wrote: > On Thu, 18 Dec 2003, Robert Brockway wrote: > > > I know a lot of people who did who got sick anyway. This years strain > > > seemed to have been missed... > > > > ...I don't believe this is a case of anyone being inept. From what I > > understand, figuring out which flu will be the serious one in any given > > year can be a matter of guess work, and as a result they can get it > > wrong. > > Also, something that people often don't understand is that many vaccines > do not provide foolproof protection against even the exact strain they are > made for. They greatly *reduce* the odds of getting the bug, and if you > do get it they tend to reduce its severity, but they don't necessarily > preclude infection completely. (Notably, even if you are properly > vaccinated against smallpox, if you are heavily exposed to it, you can > come down with a mild case.) > I should mention that during the major smallpox outbreaks on record, people from one specific occupation in life were suprisinly immune to it. MilkMaids with their constant handling of cows and their raw milk, had built a strong resistance to cowpox. An occupational hazard, was in fact a blessing. In more recent 'Olden Times', parents with young children having heard of a neighbors kids with chickenpox, would hurry over so their kids would get it. "If you're not hungry and throw away the bread with the mold, you may find yourself buying it back with a cold." -- farmer6re9 Now where can I get that flu shot I heard about for my Windows PC? -- Eating Crow is better with MyCrowSauce -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jason-gaRZxGPHtpBxZtjKW1aY+1aTQe2KTcn/ at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 19 02:12:52 2003 From: jason-gaRZxGPHtpBxZtjKW1aY+1aTQe2KTcn/ at public.gmane.org (Jason Shein) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 21:12:52 -0500 Subject: music collection to ogg vorbis ? In-Reply-To: <1071782879.4306.4.camel-0lXLkTl3c71ptQ/RaucIWavRY+knis1x5NbjCUgZEJk@public.gmane.org> References: <0938AA1A-30B0-11D8-9A66-0003931BD222@foolswisdom.com> <20031217165006.GA75234@idiom.novusordo.net> <1071782879.4306.4.camel@theconstruct.mineallmeyn.net> Message-ID: <3FE25EA4.8030400@pcsecurityonline.com> I am currently using a rimps server in my house to serve all my mp3's and ogg files via a web interface. works great. You can edit the tags, delete, upload, create playlists ETC, all remotely. User access can be restricted to just playing & searches so content cannot be accidentally removed. My kids love it, as all their favourite singers or groups are available anywhere in the house, even outside via wireless. http://rimps.sourceforge.net/ current is 3b3 I use my browser to access the server then the steams open in my choice of player. ( xmms of course ) Definitely good use for an old pc. Oliver Meyn wrote: > On Wed, 2003-12-17 at 11:50, Taavi Burns wrote: > >>On Wed, Dec 17, 2003 at 11:42:43AM -0500, Lloyd Budd wrote: >> >>>What is an efficient way to achieve the ripping (+tag) under Linux? >> >>IIRC grip will snag disc info from freedb and rip with your choice >>of filename and filled out ID3 tag, direclty to your favourite >>format for which there exists a CLI encoder. >> > > > If you have a big enough collection to warrant it, the grip guy has also > written ddj which is a dbase frontend for all the info grip (optionally) > sticks into a mysql dbase. It's missing some key features (eg text > search) but it'll do til I write my own :) Note it also allows you to > pick your favourite command line player. > > Cheers, > Oliver > > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- " Eventually people tire of repairing broken Windows, And decide to replace them with something stronger" (o_ //\ Linux - The Choice Of A GNU Generation V_/_ Jason Shein Linux Registered User #281100 jason-gaRZxGPHtpBxZtjKW1aY+1aTQe2KTcn/@public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From rufmetal-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 19 03:40:15 2003 From: rufmetal-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org (Chris Keelan) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 22:40:15 -0500 Subject: Waaaay offtopic In-Reply-To: <20031218143113.2e3a287b.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <20031218143113.2e3a287b.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <20031218224015.4cd0fd4f.rufmetal@eol.ca> On Thu, 18 Dec 2003 14:31:13 -0500 JoeHill wrote: > I'd rather make out with Steve Ballmer than go through > that again. Ka-ching! Instant .sig file. Howze it feel to be immortal? ;o) ~ C -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 19 04:06:51 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 23:06:51 -0500 Subject: Waaaay offtopic In-Reply-To: <20031218224015.4cd0fd4f.rufmetal-MwcKTmeKVNQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20031218143113.2e3a287b.joehill@sympatico.ca> <20031218224015.4cd0fd4f.rufmetal@eol.ca> Message-ID: <20031218230651.53334a77.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Thu, 18 Dec 2003 22:40:15 -0500 Chris Keelan wrote: > > I'd rather make out with Steve Ballmer than go through > > that again. > > Ka-ching! > > Instant .sig file. > > Howze it feel to be immortal? ;o) LOL! Feels good, I'm sure my Mom would be proud :-P -- JoeHill ++ ICQ # 280779813 Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "If the Nuremberg laws were applied, then every post-war American president would have been hanged."-- Noam Chomsky -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 19 04:10:45 2003 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 23:10:45 -0500 Subject: When will the persecution of MS *end*?! In-Reply-To: <20031218202223.397ba155.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <20031218202223.397ba155.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <20031219041045.GA265@node1.opengeometry.net> On Thu, Dec 18, 2003 at 08:22:23PM -0500, JoeHill wrote: > > "Microsoft Corp. was hit Thursday with yet another antitrust lawsuit, > this one accusing the software giant of illegally monopolizing the > growing field of digital music and video. > > RealNetworks Inc. said Microsoft illegally tied its Windows Media > Player software with copies of the ubiquitous Windows operating > system, whether Windows users want Microsoft's player or not." > > Link: > > http://www.salon.com/tech/wire/2003/12/18/microsoft/index.html Cry babies... RealNetworks lost out in competition. -- William Park, Open Geometry Consulting, Linux solution for data management and processing. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From dgenn-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 19 04:26:38 2003 From: dgenn-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (DanG) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 23:26:38 -0500 Subject: When will the persecution of MS *end*?! In-Reply-To: <20031219041045.GA265-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20031219041045.GA265@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <20031219042437.FTYH317816.fep04-mail.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com@pittlandctr8at> Somehow when a company owns 98% of the desktop OS market and leverages that to distribute "free" software as a bundle with their OSes to take out competition, I hardly call that a level playing field. Do you remember the browser wars with Netscape and the numerous other companies who formed technology partnerships and got swallowed up? I think these antitrust suits looks good on Microsoft and it's monopoly practices. What they did to all those competitors is either buy them out or bundle them out or hide programming interfaces to competitors because they had the financial resources and monopoly to do so. I hope Real and the numerous states that are still filing anti-trust suits in the US get a good whack of cash. We all know Bill has enough for everyone, if he can give SCO cash then I say everyone hold your hands out. :-) -----Original Message----- From: owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org [mailto:owner-tlug at ss.org] On Behalf Of William Park Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2003 11:11 PM To: TLUG Subject: Re: [TLUG]: When will the persecution of MS *end*?! On Thu, Dec 18, 2003 at 08:22:23PM -0500, JoeHill wrote: > > "Microsoft Corp. was hit Thursday with yet another antitrust lawsuit, > this one accusing the software giant of illegally monopolizing the > growing field of digital music and video. > > RealNetworks Inc. said Microsoft illegally tied its Windows Media > Player software with copies of the ubiquitous Windows operating > system, whether Windows users want Microsoft's player or not." > > Link: > > http://www.salon.com/tech/wire/2003/12/18/microsoft/index.html Cry babies... RealNetworks lost out in competition. -- William Park, Open Geometry Consulting, Linux solution for data management and processing. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From drew-vnkfHpbZfesgsBAKwltoeQ at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 19 04:40:08 2003 From: drew-vnkfHpbZfesgsBAKwltoeQ at public.gmane.org (Andrew G. Hammond) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 23:40:08 -0500 Subject: High-Availability In-Reply-To: <3FE201B0.5070100-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20031218192840.SJIB132452.fep01-mail.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com@pittlandctr8at> <3FE201B0.5070100@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <3FE28128.4000603@xyzzy.dhs.org> LVS + keepalived will solve the problem you described below. What are your scalability needs / availability needs that you require such a heavy duty solution? What I would suggest is that unless you really do need very high performance and scalability, simply go with a pair of servers and use VRRP (supported under keepalived) to provide a redundant IP. Then mirror data between master and slave filesystems using either CODA or whatever other approach suits you. This is not true HA, but should be sufficient for most needs. Drew 86% of respondents agree: Reply-to munging is ignorant and rude. Madison Kelly wrote: > Thank you for the leads! > > Madison > > DanG wrote: > >> LVS is a very good software package that is constantly under >> development and >> use. linux-ha.org works with LVS collaboratively. >> http://oscar.openclustergroup.org/tiki-index.php OSCAR is another open >> source project for cluster builds you should look at. If you want an >> easy >> cluster to setup and administer I would look at ClusterKnoppix which is >> based on the Knoppix liveCD with OpenMosix clustering integrated. This >> should make for a pretty easy install/setup >> http://bofh.be/clusterknoppix/ >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org [mailto:owner-tlug at ss.org] On Behalf Of Madison >> Kelly >> Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2003 1:56 PM >> To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org >> Subject: [TLUG]: High-Availability >> >> Hi all, >> >> I am working on developing a small cluster of servers and I was (am) >> looking at LVS (Linux Virtual Server) and it -seems-- to be able to do >> exactly what I want. That is; create a server cluster transparent to the >> user for hosting mail, web, file serving and LAN authentication. >> >> Why I am posting though is that most of the pages off of >> http://linux-ha.org seem to be a few years out. Am I missing any more >> modern >> options, by chance? Does anyone have any general comments or >> suggestions for >> what I am trying to do? >> >> Thanks!! >> >> Madison > > > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 19 04:42:45 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 23:42:45 -0500 Subject: When will the persecution of MS *end*?! In-Reply-To: <20031219041045.GA265-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20031218202223.397ba155.joehill@sympatico.ca> <20031219041045.GA265@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <20031218234245.0901828a.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Thu, 18 Dec 2003 23:10:45 -0500 William Park wrote: > Cry babies... RealNetworks lost out in competition. Oh, William, yer so cute. >From all the available evidence, "Microsoft" and "competition" have never met, though, strangely enough, MS likes to proclaim its dedication to this concept whenever someone threatens its monopoly ;-) Seriously, though, when did Real have a *chance* to compete? They don't have the opportunity to bundle their software with an OS, as MS does (despite the fact they've been told *not* to do this for several years now). IANAL, but the legal precedent is certainly there. The EU, the US DOJ, and several US states have all declared MS an illegal monopoly. Real is losing because it was impossible to compete, not because they were ineffective at doing so. -- JoeHill ++ ICQ # 280779813 Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone."-- John Maynard Keynes -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 19 04:46:28 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 23:46:28 -0500 Subject: When will the persecution of MS *end*?! In-Reply-To: <20031219042437.FTYH317816.fep04-mail.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com-9xB6k4dNltmkzIdawFaobA@public.gmane.org> References: <20031219041045.GA265@node1.opengeometry.net> <20031219042437.FTYH317816.fep04-mail.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com@pittlandctr8at> Message-ID: <20031218234628.431cbe9c.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Thu, 18 Dec 2003 23:26:38 -0500 "DanG" wrote: > to distribute "free" software as a bundle with their OSes Oh, but see, it's not called "software" anymore, it's called "features" or "enhancements" ;-) It's like, a total "XPerience", d00d. -- JoeHill ++ ICQ # 280779813 Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "If the Americans go in and overthrow Saddam Hussein and it's clean, he has nothing, I will apologize to the nation, and I will not trust the Bush Administration again, all right?"-- Bill O'Reilly, March 18, 2003 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 19 04:49:23 2003 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 23:49:23 -0500 Subject: When will the persecution of MS *end*?! In-Reply-To: <20031219042437.FTYH317816.fep04-mail.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com-9xB6k4dNltmkzIdawFaobA@public.gmane.org> References: <20031219041045.GA265@node1.opengeometry.net> <20031219042437.FTYH317816.fep04-mail.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com@pittlandctr8at> Message-ID: <20031219044923.GA441@node1.opengeometry.net> On Thu, Dec 18, 2003 at 11:26:38PM -0500, DanG wrote: > Somehow when a company owns 98% of the desktop OS market and leverages > that to distribute "free" software as a bundle with their OSes to take > out competition, I hardly call that a level playing field. Do you > remember the browser wars with Netscape and the numerous other > companies who formed technology partnerships and got swallowed up? Netscape never had intention of going retail or competing with Microsoft. Their goal was stock price. > I think these antitrust suits looks good on Microsoft and it's > monopoly practices. What they did to all those competitors is either > buy them out Microsoft bought, because the other side was selling. > or bundle them out or hide programming interfaces to > competitors because they had the financial resources and monopoly to > do so. Windows is owned Microsoft, not Microsoft's competitors. > I hope Real and the numerous states that are still filing > anti-trust suits in the US get a good whack of cash. We all know Bill > has enough for everyone, if he can give SCO cash then I say everyone > hold your hands out. :-) RealNetwork is like after-market car radio company that is suing GM because GM has the arrogance to put radio in all GM cars, thereby shutting out after-market radio companies. When will these commie diarrhoea end? -- William Park, Open Geometry Consulting, Linux solution for data management and processing. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 19 05:07:00 2003 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 00:07:00 -0500 Subject: When will the persecution of MS *end*?! In-Reply-To: <20031218234245.0901828a.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <20031218202223.397ba155.joehill@sympatico.ca> <20031219041045.GA265@node1.opengeometry.net> <20031218234245.0901828a.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <20031219050700.GB441@node1.opengeometry.net> On Thu, Dec 18, 2003 at 11:42:45PM -0500, JoeHill wrote: > Seriously, though, when did Real have a *chance* to compete? They > don't have the opportunity to bundle their software with an OS, as MS > does (despite the fact they've been told *not* to do this for several > years now). Nobody forced Real to go into business. Who knows, maybe, Real is under pressure to justify their failure, and are trying to deflect attention away from their own incompetence and inadequacy. -- William Park, Open Geometry Consulting, Linux solution for data management and processing. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 19 05:08:48 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 00:08:48 -0500 Subject: When will the persecution of MS *end*?! In-Reply-To: <20031219044923.GA441-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20031219041045.GA265@node1.opengeometry.net> <20031219042437.FTYH317816.fep04-mail.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com@pittlandctr8at> <20031219044923.GA441@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <20031219000848.27f44909.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Thu, 18 Dec 2003 23:49:23 -0500 William Park wrote: > RealNetwork is like after-market car radio company that is suing GM > because GM has the arrogance to put radio in all GM cars, thereby > shutting out after-market radio companies. Not quite. One can choose to buy any number of other models of car, with or without a radio. This comparison is not valid. > When will these commie diarrhoea end? Well, it ain't exactly "commie", there, Willy, it's Capitalism but following certain rules of fair play; it won't end 'til Microsoft starts playing by those rules; and calling someone's argument "commie diarrhoea" just makes you sound like some throwback to Joseph McArthy. Grow up. -- JoeHill ++ ICQ # 280779813 Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding." -- John Kenneth Galbraith -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 19 05:14:38 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 00:14:38 -0500 Subject: When will the persecution of MS *end*?! In-Reply-To: <20031219050700.GB441-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20031218202223.397ba155.joehill@sympatico.ca> <20031219041045.GA265@node1.opengeometry.net> <20031218234245.0901828a.joehill@sympatico.ca> <20031219050700.GB441@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <20031219001438.0e209021.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Fri, 19 Dec 2003 00:07:00 -0500 William Park wrote: > Nobody forced Real to go into business. Who knows, maybe, Real is under > pressure to justify their failure, and are trying to deflect attention > away from their own incompetence and inadequacy. What incompetence? What inadequacy? Do you have any actual evidence, or is this just more fascist diarrhea? LOL! -- JoeHill ++ ICQ # 280779813 Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "And so if people are violating the law by doing drugs, they ought to be accused and they ought to be convicted and they ought to be sent up."-- Rush Limbaugh, drug abuser -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 19 05:53:19 2003 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 00:53:19 -0500 Subject: When will the persecution of MS *end*?! In-Reply-To: <20031219001438.0e209021.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <20031218202223.397ba155.joehill@sympatico.ca> <20031219041045.GA265@node1.opengeometry.net> <20031218234245.0901828a.joehill@sympatico.ca> <20031219050700.GB441@node1.opengeometry.net> <20031219001438.0e209021.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <20031219055319.GA543@node1.opengeometry.net> On Fri, Dec 19, 2003 at 12:14:38AM -0500, JoeHill wrote: > On Fri, 19 Dec 2003 00:07:00 -0500 William Park > wrote: > > > Nobody forced Real to go into business. Who knows, maybe, Real is > > under pressure to justify their failure, and are trying to deflect > > attention away from their own incompetence and inadequacy. > > What incompetence? What inadequacy? Do you have any actual evidence, > or is this just more fascist diarrhea? LOL! - over-estimating market potential to sell stocks. - inability to generate revenue from actual sales. - buying too many BMWs and having too much tan. - reckless disregard for proper management practice. - hiring too many MBAs. - hiring too few programmers. - failure to merchandize RealPlayer to manufacturers and content providers/creators. - failure to bring about a buyout offer from Microsoft. -- William Park, Open Geometry Consulting, Linux solution for data management and processing. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From aacton-B71PBEe7S7Y at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 19 06:03:02 2003 From: aacton-B71PBEe7S7Y at public.gmane.org (Austin Acton) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 01:03:02 -0500 Subject: When will the persecution of MS *end*?! In-Reply-To: <20031219042437.FTYH317816.fep04-mail.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com-9xB6k4dNltmkzIdawFaobA@public.gmane.org> References: <20031219042437.FTYH317816.fep04-mail.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com@pittlandctr8at> Message-ID: <1071813780.2591.7.camel@gamma373-365.portable.resnet.yorku.ca> Word up! And no, I don't mean MS Word(tm) up. Austin On Thu, 2003-12-18 at 23:26, DanG wrote: > Somehow when a company owns 98% of the desktop OS market and leverages that > to distribute "free" software as a bundle with their OSes to take out > competition, I hardly call that a level playing field. Do you remember the > browser wars with Netscape and the numerous other companies who formed > technology partnerships and got swallowed up? I think these antitrust suits > looks good on Microsoft and it's monopoly practices. What they did to all > those competitors is either buy them out or bundle them out or hide > programming interfaces to competitors because they had the financial > resources and monopoly to do so. I hope Real and the numerous states that > are still filing anti-trust suits in the US get a good whack of cash. We all > know Bill has enough for everyone, if he can give SCO cash then I say > everyone hold your hands out. :-) -- Austin Acton Synthetic Organic Chemist, Teaching Assistant, Ph.D. Candidate Department of Chemistry, York University, Toronto MandrakeLinux Volunteer Developer, homepage: www.groundstate.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From roulton623-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 19 06:11:53 2003 From: roulton623-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Stephen Oulton) Date: 19 Dec 2003 01:11:53 -0500 Subject: Hello Every One Message-ID: <1071814309.2477.21.camel@CPE0080c6f2a89b-CM00003940c461.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com> Hi I'm Stephen Oulton I have been using Mandrake 9.1 for about 6 months now. When I first started to try linux I used Lycoris it was fast and it didn't take much hard drive space. It wouldn't operate my scanner, and half of the programs that came with it didn't work. They crashed frequently. When I installed Mandrake I had lots of problems. It would crash while I was installing it and I had to keep trying over and over again. I finally got it working and it even runs my scanjet which Red Hat, Conectiva, Lycoris Build 46, and 75 wouldn't do. It runs very slow. When I click to start an application it takes about 30 seconds before the application starts to boot up. I have found that most of the applications that came with it will work. The ones that I would like to work don't. GT Catalog for one. I can read a CD with Konqueror and it reads it fine. When I go to scan the CD with GT Catalog it freezes the whole operating system. I can't even log out. The only thing that works is the reset button. My system is a Pentium III, 733 megahertz, with 2 10 gigabyte drives. I don't think that is should run so slow. I would like to completely get away from windows but I can't seem to find a version of linux that will run all the peripherals. Even Mandrake won't run my fax modem. So far the only way I can use all of the functions on my computer is to use windows. Can anyone help me out. Thanks Stephen Oulton -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From aacton-B71PBEe7S7Y at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 19 06:11:42 2003 From: aacton-B71PBEe7S7Y at public.gmane.org (Austin Acton) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 01:11:42 -0500 Subject: When will the persecution of MS *end*?! In-Reply-To: <20031219055319.GA543-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20031218202223.397ba155.joehill@sympatico.ca> <20031219041045.GA265@node1.opengeometry.net> <20031218234245.0901828a.joehill@sympatico.ca> <20031219050700.GB441@node1.opengeometry.net> <20031219001438.0e209021.joehill@sympatico.ca> <20031219055319.GA543@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <1071814300.2597.11.camel@gamma373-365.portable.resnet.yorku.ca> On Fri, 2003-12-19 at 00:53, William Park wrote: > - failure to bring about a buyout offer from Microsoft. You have to be kidding. If this is what qualifies a business as 'successful' these days, there is something SERIOUSLY wrong with America, and digital consumers. Oh wait, that is in fact the case, isn't it? Austin -- Austin Acton Synthetic Organic Chemist, Teaching Assistant, Ph.D. Candidate Department of Chemistry, York University, Toronto MandrakeLinux Volunteer Developer, homepage: www.groundstate.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From aacton-B71PBEe7S7Y at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 19 06:21:54 2003 From: aacton-B71PBEe7S7Y at public.gmane.org (Austin Acton) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 01:21:54 -0500 Subject: Hello Every One In-Reply-To: <1071814309.2477.21.camel-dKL88l7hNfq+7LdUnWLbWeRNwQ1nxAZKTJmjD0f5kqEKu2YovVVDERgSKFK9O5hcLMHrShElKjA@public.gmane.org> References: <1071814309.2477.21.camel@CPE0080c6f2a89b-CM00003940c461.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com> Message-ID: <1071814912.2596.18.camel@gamma373-365.portable.resnet.yorku.ca> On Fri, 2003-12-19 at 01:11, Stephen Oulton wrote: > It runs very slow. When I click to start an application it takes about > 30 seconds before the application starts to boot up. That's just bizarre. Linux should run as fast as, if not faster than Windows. Especially Mandrake, which is i586 optimized, which neither RedHat nor Windows are. > I have found that most of the applications that came with it will work. > The ones that I would like to work don't. GT Catalog for one. I can read > a CD with Konqueror and it reads it fine. When I go to scan the CD with > GT Catalog it freezes the whole operating system. I can't even log out. > The only thing that works is the reset button. If you post a bug report to http://qa.mandrakesoft.com it may get fixed. Keep in mind that this is not uncommon with Linux. The flip-side of the coin is that there are usually 2 or 3 apps available that do the same thing, and one of them is bound to work. > My system is a Pentium III, 733 megahertz, with 2 10 gigabyte drives. I > don't think that is should run so slow. Neither do I. My 500 MHz PIII runs great. > I would like to completely get away from windows but I can't seem to > find a version of linux that will run all the peripherals. Even Mandrake > won't run my fax modem. If it's a winmoden, it's unlikely that any distro will run it out-of-the-box. The Powerpack edition of Mandrake comes with some Winmodem drivers, but it is not free (as in beer). Otherwise see: http://www.linmodems.org/ http://www.idir.net/~gromitkc/winmodem.html http://www.danielrees.me.uk/ltmodem.html > So far the only way I can use all of the functions on my computer is to > use windows. That's okay. That's not uncommon. If you contribute really helpful bug reports back to the community, maybe Linux will meet all of your needs soon. Austin -- Austin Acton Synthetic Organic Chemist, Teaching Assistant, Ph.D. Candidate Department of Chemistry, York University, Toronto MandrakeLinux Volunteer Developer, homepage: www.groundstate.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From teddymills-VFlxZYho3OA at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 19 07:59:33 2003 From: teddymills-VFlxZYho3OA at public.gmane.org (Teddy Mills) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 02:59:33 -0500 Subject: Apache MP3s Web based players Message-ID: <000701c3c606$0c0f0440$0301a8c0@amazon> I know of Sourceforge's RIMPS and NAMP. There maybe others Apache MP3 web based players/servers. I was wondering what experience TLUG users have with this. And in your opinion what is the best Apache MP3 player/server, easiest to configure and setup. caveats, security etc. I have Apache 2.048 and PHP 4.34, so the system is current. --------------------------------------------------------------- teddy mills http://www.vger.ca VGER directives...To collect...all that is collectable. To sell...all that is saleable.To merchandise...all that is merchandisable. Family Guys, Quagmire "allllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll right" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 19 10:19:22 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 05:19:22 -0500 Subject: Hello Every One In-Reply-To: <1071814309.2477.21.camel-dKL88l7hNfq+7LdUnWLbWeRNwQ1nxAZKTJmjD0f5kqEKu2YovVVDERgSKFK9O5hcLMHrShElKjA@public.gmane.org> References: <1071814309.2477.21.camel@CPE0080c6f2a89b-CM00003940c461.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com> Message-ID: <20031219051922.3502b5be.joehill@sympatico.ca> On 19 Dec 2003 01:11:53 -0500 Stephen Oulton wrote: > It runs very slow. When I click to start an application it takes about > 30 seconds before the application starts to boot up. > > I have found that most of the applications that came with it will work. > The ones that I would like to work don't. GT Catalog for one. I can read > a CD with Konqueror and it reads it fine. When I go to scan the CD with > GT Catalog it freezes the whole operating system. I can't even log out. > The only thing that works is the reset button. > > My system is a Pentium III, 733 megahertz, with 2 10 gigabyte drives. I > don't think that is should run so slow. Austin makes some good points re the speed factor. I have 9.1 running my webserver on a P166, and while it won't win any contests, it certainly doesn't take 30 seconds to open an app. If you open a terminal and type "top", is there anything (at the top of the list) using a lot of your CPU time or memory? -- JoeHill ++ ICQ # 280779813 Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold..." -- William Butler Yeats -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 19 10:29:24 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 05:29:24 -0500 Subject: When will the persecution of MS *end*?! In-Reply-To: <20031219055319.GA543-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20031218202223.397ba155.joehill@sympatico.ca> <20031219041045.GA265@node1.opengeometry.net> <20031218234245.0901828a.joehill@sympatico.ca> <20031219050700.GB441@node1.opengeometry.net> <20031219001438.0e209021.joehill@sympatico.ca> <20031219055319.GA543@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <20031219052924.415aa9c9.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Fri, 19 Dec 2003 00:53:19 -0500 William Park wrote: > - over-estimating market potential to sell stocks. what the hell does this have to do with whether people choose to use Realplayer? > - inability to generate revenue from actual sales. ...because some company convicted of being an illegal monopoly is pulling the rug out from under you. > - buying too many BMWs and having too much tan. WTF? > - reckless disregard for proper management practice. > - hiring too many MBAs. > - hiring too few programmers. If you put that in print, they'd sue you for libel, and win. > - failure to merchandize RealPlayer to manufacturers and content > providers/creators. see #2 > - failure to bring about a buyout offer from Microsoft. see Austin's response... Man, you are some piece o' work, there William. And I should know, I'm a shit-disturber from waaaaaaay back. *plonk* -- JoeHill ++ ICQ # 280779813 Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "In our civilization, and under our republican form of government, intelligence is so highly honored that it is rewarded by exemption from the cares of office."-- Ambrose Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 19 10:32:51 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 05:32:51 -0500 Subject: When will the persecution of MS *end*?! In-Reply-To: <1071813780.2591.7.camel-33sJirT1wKzlb5+wx7kmt/BjuwtQqDz/bwi28uEu5RN+FfftCXEu2Q@public.gmane.org> References: <20031219042437.FTYH317816.fep04-mail.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com@pittlandctr8at> <1071813780.2591.7.camel@gamma373-365.portable.resnet.yorku.ca> Message-ID: <20031219053251.706718e5.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Fri, 19 Dec 2003 01:03:02 -0500 Austin Acton wrote: > Word up! Yo, I thought we werent' supposed to use street lingo, G, aight? -- JoeHill ++ ICQ # 280779813 Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "Every now and then when your life gets complicated and the weasels start closing in, the only real cure is to load up on heinous chemicals and then drive like a bastard from Hollywood to Las Vegas."-- Hunter S. Thompson -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 19 10:48:07 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 05:48:07 -0500 Subject: anti-spam spam... Message-ID: <20031219054807.01c4913f.joehill@sympatico.ca> Oh this is rich, this one made it through and I'm glad it did. Maybe it's just me but it had me nearly wetting myself: "Hi, We have noticed your email inbox has been getting more junk email lately, You have been chosen to check out this new windows compatiable software solution we have been working on that clears out 99% of the spam email in your inbox." 1. You *would* notice that, being a spammer, no? 2. Would the remaining 1% be...you? 3. I'd be much more confident in your product if your sales team knew how to spell "compatible". 4. I could clear 100% of the spam in my mailbox if I had a list of known spammers, a steady-cam-mounted minigun, and 8 million rounds of ammo. -- JoeHill ++ ICQ # 280779813 Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "In this possibly terminal phase of human existence, democracy and freedom are more than just ideals to be valued - they may be essential to survival...."-- Noam Chomsky -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 19 11:49:06 2003 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 06:49:06 -0500 Subject: When will the persecution of MS *end*?! In-Reply-To: <20031219041045.GA265-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20031218202223.397ba155.joehill@sympatico.ca> <20031219041045.GA265@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <3FE2E5B2.1060405@rogers.com> William Park wrote: > > Cry babies... RealNetworks lost out in competition. > Suppose you were in the trailer hitch business and GM decided to put their own hitch on every car, whether the customer wanted one or not. Would you have lost out to competion? Several years ago, there was a similar situation regarding car radios. The car makers were sued & lost. MS has also run into similar problems in the big court case, a few years ago. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 19 11:52:59 2003 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 06:52:59 -0500 Subject: When will the persecution of MS *end*?! In-Reply-To: <20031219044923.GA441-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20031219041045.GA265@node1.opengeometry.net> <20031219042437.FTYH317816.fep04-mail.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com@pittlandctr8at> <20031219044923.GA441@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <3FE2E69B.2070804@rogers.com> William Park wrote: > On Thu, Dec 18, 2003 at 11:26:38PM -0500, DanG wrote: > >>Somehow when a company owns 98% of the desktop OS market and leverages >>that to distribute "free" software as a bundle with their OSes to take >>out competition, I hardly call that a level playing field. Do you >>remember the browser wars with Netscape and the numerous other >>companies who formed technology partnerships and got swallowed up? > > > Netscape never had intention of going retail or competing with > Microsoft. Their goal was stock price. Years ago, Netscape was giving away the browser and selling servers. Sort of like a certain razor company. > > >>I think these antitrust suits looks good on Microsoft and it's >>monopoly practices. What they did to all those competitors is either >>buy them out > > > Microsoft bought, because the other side was selling. > > >>or bundle them out or hide programming interfaces to >>competitors because they had the financial resources and monopoly to >>do so. > > > Windows is owned Microsoft, not Microsoft's competitors. > > >>I hope Real and the numerous states that are still filing >>anti-trust suits in the US get a good whack of cash. We all know Bill >>has enough for everyone, if he can give SCO cash then I say everyone >>hold your hands out. :-) > > > RealNetwork is like after-market car radio company that is suing GM > because GM has the arrogance to put radio in all GM cars, thereby > shutting out after-market radio companies. Actually, that matter did go to court and the auto makers lost. > > When will these commie diarrhoea end? > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 19 11:55:12 2003 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 06:55:12 -0500 Subject: When will the persecution of MS *end*?! In-Reply-To: <20031219050700.GB441-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20031218202223.397ba155.joehill@sympatico.ca> <20031219041045.GA265@node1.opengeometry.net> <20031218234245.0901828a.joehill@sympatico.ca> <20031219050700.GB441@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <3FE2E720.6000203@rogers.com> William Park wrote: > On Thu, Dec 18, 2003 at 11:42:45PM -0500, JoeHill wrote: > >>Seriously, though, when did Real have a *chance* to compete? They >>don't have the opportunity to bundle their software with an OS, as MS >>does (despite the fact they've been told *not* to do this for several >>years now). > > > Nobody forced Real to go into business. Who knows, maybe, Real is under > pressure to justify their failure, and are trying to deflect attention > away from their own incompetence and inadequacy. > I guess you're not much on history. The MS trial is full of examples where MS used their ownership of the desktop to destroy previously competitive markets. It's not competition, when one company has the power to destroy another, simply because it can force it's product on consumers. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 19 12:07:37 2003 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 07:07:37 -0500 Subject: LVM, 'ext3' to 'reiserfs' conertion on '/' on software RAID5 Message-ID: <3FE2EA09.4050009@alteeve.com> Hi TLUG! I posted this to an LVM-specific mailing list but I decided to repost the question here to see if anyone might have some insight... This kinda ies into my cluster question yesterday (same project) and has kinda stopped my in my tracks! Anyway, thanks to all! Okay, the message/prob; I am relatively new to LVM but I have read most of the docs that I could find on the topic and I am pretty strong on RAID and general storage tech. With that said, here is my problem/scenario: I have a small test server that I am trying to use to learn how to configure the '/' filesystem of a Fedora Core 1 install of linux to reside on a software RAID5 array with an LVM VG on top of it and the bulk of that partition on a single LV mounted as '/'. This so far is just fine. Oh, fwiw, the four drives are SCSI on an Adaptec 2940x PCI controller (three in use now, a forth to be used as a temp drive during FS convertion and later added to the array) with another IDE drive used for '/boot' and . Now what I am trying to do immidiately is to convert the '/' filesystem from 'ext3' to 'resierfs'. ReiserFS is not an install-time option and the LVM FAQ says simple to boot from a rescue CD, back the '/' LV data up, re-format the LV with a ReiserFS and then restore the data. Sounds easy enough, eh? Anyway, I have been able to do all of this and I am even pretty sure that the data is intact because when I boot the Fedora Core 1 Disk 1 using 'linux rescue' it scans for the install and finds it on both '/dev/sdd1' (the drive I am using temporarily to backup the '/' LV data to) and on '/dev/vg0/root' (the LV that started life as an ext3 filesystem during the OS install). The problem is that when I boot into the OS proper something somewhere is still telling something to do with LVM that the file system is still ext3 and thus it throws a kernel panic. I have edited '/etc/fstab', '/etc/mtab' and '/etc/blkid.tab' to read 'reiserfs' instead of the original 'ext3'. Am I missing a file somewhere? Is there a command I need to run to tell '/etc/lvmtab' or '/etc/lvmtab.d/root' that the filesystem has changed? Am I missing something all together different? Anywho, as a little heads up and maybe a little request for comment; once I manage to get the '/' LV on ReiserFS the next thing I want to do is add a forth drive (the '/dev/sdd' drive) to the RAID5 array, extend it via 'raidreconf', add the new space to the PV, pass that space up to the VG and finally extend the 'root' LV and update the filesystem while online (hence the desire for ReiserFS). Am I on the right track? Does anyone who has done this before have any pointers? Thanks all for listening to a n00by!! Madison -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From adam-+Gnyv3l5ckaNFgfkp0FINA at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 19 13:19:09 2003 From: adam-+Gnyv3l5ckaNFgfkp0FINA at public.gmane.org (Adam Tworkowski) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 08:19:09 -0500 Subject: LVM, 'ext3' to 'reiserfs' conertion on '/' on software RAID5 In-Reply-To: <3FE2EA09.4050009-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <3FE2EA09.4050009@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <200312190819.09232.adam@tworkowski.com> Not really an answer to your current LVM issues, but during install, instead of booting with "linux" if you use "linux reiserfs", ReiserFS will be available. > filesystem from 'ext3' to 'resierfs'. ReiserFS is not an install-time > option Adam -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From pegasoft-iRg7kjdsKiH3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 19 14:23:39 2003 From: pegasoft-iRg7kjdsKiH3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (pegasoft-iRg7kjdsKiH3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 09:23:39 -0500 Subject: Cogeco.ca blocking incoming port 25 smtp Message-ID: <3fe309eb.bb.4e6e.30124@cogeco.ca> Hi All, Has anyone else notice if cogeco has begun blocking incoming port 25? I can send email from my mail server but I'm not receiving anything for the last two days... Thanks, Dan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jmyshrall-6duGhz7i8susTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 19 14:52:48 2003 From: jmyshrall-6duGhz7i8susTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (John Myshrall) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 09:52:48 -0500 Subject: DVD Burning and Viewing Message-ID: <20031219095248.55772c81.jmyshrall@golden.net> Yesterday I installed a Sony DVD Burner and Sony DVD ROM. Both drives were detected. My initial attempts with viewing a movie resulted in crashes on Xine and Ogle. I did try to run Ogle from the command line in an x terminal as suggested in a goolge search. In regards to burning. I know K3B is pretty good as is CDrecord from the command line. Any other suggestions ? Both of these drives also serve as CDR-RW and CDROM. I'm thinking that I need to ID the drives as DVD's also. Am I on the right track ? This system consists of an XP 1800, 512 MB memory, GF MX2-400 64 MB Video card so horsepower is not a problem. I running Debian as a distro. Any help would be appreciated. TIA John -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 19 15:13:53 2003 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 10:13:53 -0500 Subject: LVM, 'ext3' to 'reiserfs' conertion on '/' on software RAID5 In-Reply-To: <200312190819.09232.adam-+Gnyv3l5ckaNFgfkp0FINA@public.gmane.org> References: <3FE2EA09.4050009@alteeve.com> <200312190819.09232.adam@tworkowski.com> Message-ID: <3FE315B1.4050909@alteeve.com> Stupid question time, where would I enter that? At the grub menu? The kernel panic said something about passing something to init, is that where? Thanks! Adam Tworkowski wrote: > Not really an answer to your current LVM issues, but during install, instead > of booting with "linux" if you use "linux reiserfs", ReiserFS will be > available. > > >>filesystem from 'ext3' to 'resierfs'. ReiserFS is not an install-time >>option > > > Adam -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From hughreilly1-PkbjNfxxIARBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 19 15:43:21 2003 From: hughreilly1-PkbjNfxxIARBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Hugh Reilly) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 10:43:21 -0500 Subject: Waaaay offtopic Message-ID: >>Maybe next year, you'll get a flu shot. > >I know a lot of people who did who got sick anyway. This years strain >seemed to have been missed. I can see you have been taken by the christmas >spirit! I have an African friend who thinks that the AIDS virus was introduced there through mass vaccination programs. Makes me seriously wonder why so much ENORMOUS hype has gone into Ontario's flushot program. Has anyone out there heard of the "zapper", invented by Saskatchewan naturopathic doctor and celll biologist Hulda Clark? She claims that disease-causing bacteria and viruses in the body can be killed by low-level radio frequencies. The zapper delivers that frequency to the body, and has been claimed by some to actually cure AIDS. I have been experimenting myself with the device, having built several over the past couple of years. And I have to say, with very positive results. And I am NOT getting a flu shot! -Hugh _______________________________________________ Hugh Reilly XEN Technology Group | LinuxLab 600 Bay Street, Suite 405 Toronto ON M5R 1G6 tel: 416-204-9951 fax: 416-204-9723 email: info-2K4XOyu7qTosA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org _______________________________________________ http://www.xen.ca | http://www.linuxlab.ca _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/bcomm&pgmarket=en-ca&RU=http%3a%2f%2fjoin.msn.com%2f%3fpage%3dmisc%2fspecialoffers%26pgmarket%3den-ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 19 16:42:08 2003 From: henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org (Henry Spencer) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 11:42:08 -0500 (EST) Subject: Waaaay offtopic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Dec 2003, Hugh Reilly wrote: > I have an African friend who thinks that the AIDS virus was introduced there > through mass vaccination programs. That idea was taken seriously enough to be investigated at some length, but the evidence is strongly and clearly against it. > Makes me seriously wonder why so much > ENORMOUS hype has gone into Ontario's flushot program. Because vaccinating people is a lot cheaper than looking after the bad cases in hospitals. > ...The zapper delivers that frequency to the body, and has > been claimed by some to actually cure AIDS. *Lots* of things have been claimed by some to cure AIDS. What is lacking, in all cases, is clear proof. Henry Spencer henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From teddymills-VFlxZYho3OA at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 19 16:48:48 2003 From: teddymills-VFlxZYho3OA at public.gmane.org (Teddy Mills) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 11:48:48 -0500 Subject: Another list References: Message-ID: <001601c3c64f$fa6b5500$0301a8c0@amazon> Can Drew make another TLUG list? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Henry Spencer" To: Sent: Friday, December 19, 2003 11:42 AM Subject: Re: [TLUG]: Waaaay offtopic > On Fri, 19 Dec 2003, Hugh Reilly wrote: > > I have an African friend who thinks that the AIDS virus was introduced there > > through mass vaccination programs. > > That idea was taken seriously enough to be investigated at some length, > but the evidence is strongly and clearly against it. > > > Makes me seriously wonder why so much > > ENORMOUS hype has gone into Ontario's flushot program. > > Because vaccinating people is a lot cheaper than looking after the bad > cases in hospitals. > > > ...The zapper delivers that frequency to the body, and has > > been claimed by some to actually cure AIDS. > > *Lots* of things have been claimed by some to cure AIDS. What is lacking, > in all cases, is clear proof. > > Henry Spencer > henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 19 16:58:41 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 11:58:41 -0500 Subject: Another list In-Reply-To: <001601c3c64f$fa6b5500$0301a8c0-vAnPq90cUBg@public.gmane.org> References: <001601c3c64f$fa6b5500$0301a8c0@amazon> Message-ID: <20031219115841.68cb4c76.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Fri, 19 Dec 2003 11:48:48 -0500 "Teddy Mills" wrote: > Can Drew make another TLUG list? Funny stuff. Do you do parties? ;-) -- JoeHill ++ ICQ # 280779813 Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "Behind every great fortune is a crime." -- Balzac -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 19 17:00:35 2003 From: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 12:00:35 -0500 (EST) Subject: LVM, 'ext3' to 'reiserfs' conertion on '/' on software RAID5 In-Reply-To: <3FE315B1.4050909-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <3FE2EA09.4050009@alteeve.com> <200312190819.09232.adam@tworkowski.com> <3FE315B1.4050909@alteeve.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Dec 2003, Madison Kelly wrote: > Stupid question time, where would I enter that? At the grub menu? The > kernel panic said something about passing something to init, is that where? Hi Maddy. Could you post the panic message you are getting (assuming the suggesting to use "linux reiserfs" doesn't work). Rob -- Robert Brockway B.Sc. email: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org, zzbrock at uqconnect.net Linux counter project ID #16440 (http://counter.li.org) "The earth is but one country and mankind its citizens" -Baha'u'llah -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From matt-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 19 17:03:40 2003 From: matt-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Matthew Rice) Date: 19 Dec 2003 12:03:40 -0500 Subject: Another list In-Reply-To: <001601c3c64f$fa6b5500$0301a8c0-vAnPq90cUBg@public.gmane.org> References: <001601c3c64f$fa6b5500$0301a8c0@amazon> Message-ID: "Teddy Mills" writes: > Can Drew make another TLUG list? For what purpose? If you want a technical centric list where people ask questions and others answer them try the NewTLUG list: http://newtlug.linux.ca/mailman/listinfo/talk Even our infamous Thamer is a good and very helpful citizen on the list. Except now that I've said that he's going to act up :) -- matthew rice starnix inc. phone: 905-771-0017 x242 thornhill, ontario, canada http://www.starnix.com professional linux services & products -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 19 17:18:03 2003 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 12:18:03 -0500 Subject: LVM, 'ext3' to 'reiserfs' conertion on '/' on software RAID5 In-Reply-To: References: <3FE2EA09.4050009@alteeve.com> <200312190819.09232.adam@tworkowski.com> <3FE315B1.4050909@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <3FE332CB.6050705@alteeve.com> I have since been told to use the 'lvmcreate_initrd' command to create a new boot image that loads LVM tools before passing off to the kernel but the only way I can get to the disks (and their files) is using the Fedora install disk 1 in rescue mode where the directories that 'lvmcreate_initrd' look for off of '/' are actually mounted off 'mnt/sysimage'. I tried symlinking but it fails (I'll post below why in a sec). First, here is the kernel panic and a few lines leading up to it... -= Kernel panic... ... Creating block devices Scanning logical volumes vgscan -- reading all physical volumes (this may take a while...) raid5: switching cache buffer size, 4096 --> 1024 vgscan -- found inactive volume group "vg0" vgscan -- "/etc/lvmtab" and "/etc/lvmtab.d" successfully created vgscan -- WARNING: This program does not do a VGDA backup of your volume group Activating logical volumes vgchange -- volume group "vg0" successfully activate Mounting root filesystem VFS: Can't find ext3 filesystem on dev lvm(58,0). mount: error 22 mounting ext3 picotroot: pivot_root(/sysroot,/sysroot/initrd) failed: 2 umount /initrd/proc failed: 2 Freeing unused kernel memory: 136k freed Kernel panic: No init found. Try passing init= option to kernel. -= End kernel panic How would I pass options to the kernel (via "init="?) Here is what happens when I try to use the 'lvmcreate_initrd' tool under the rescue mode of the Fedora Install CD: -= First, 'df' before I begin... sh-2.05b# df Filesystem 1K-blocks Used Available Use% Mounted on rootfs 6120 3564 2206 62% / /dev/root.old 6120 3564 2206 62% / /tmp/cdrom 644864 644864 0 100% /mnt/source /dev/vg0/root 17919448 1916960 16002488 11% /mnt/sysimage /dev/hda1 101086 6767 89100 8% /mnt/sysimage/boot /dev/hda3 76304192 32828 72395284 1% /mnt/sysimage/single (Note that I have an IDE for '/boot' and swap) -= Okay, my simlinks are in place. Now running 'lvmcreate_initrd' sh-2.05b# lvmcreate_initrd Logical Volume Manager 1.0.3 by Heinz Mauelshagen 02/19/2002 lvmcreate_initrd -- make LVM initial ram disk /boot/initrd-lvm-2.4.22-1.2115.nptl.gz lvmcreate_initrd -- finding required shared libraries lvmcreate_initrd -- stripping shared libraries lvmcreate_initrd -- calculating initrd filesystem parameters lvmcreate_initrd -- calculating loopback file size du: invalid option -- c BusyBox v0.60.5 (2003.01.24-22:44+000) multi-call binary Usage: du [-lsxhmk] [FILE]... lvmcreate_initrd -- making loopback file (541 kB) lvmcreate_initrd -- making ram disk filesystem 9238 inodes) lvmcreate_initrd -- mounting ramdisk filesystem lvmcreate_initrd -- creating new /etc/modules.conf lvmcreate_initrd -- creating new modules.dep depmod: Can't open /lib/modules/2.4.22-1.2115.nptl/modules.dep for writing lvmcreate_initrd -- ERROR running depmod rmdir: unable to remove '/tmp/mnt.1185': Device or resource busy -= It failed... Here is 'df' again, with the loopback still mounted sh-2.05b# df Filesystem 1K-blocks Used Available Use% Mounted on rootfs 6120 3564 2206 62% / /dev/root.old 6120 3564 2206 62% / /tmp/cdrom 644864 644864 0 100% /mnt/source /dev/vg0/root 17919448 1916960 16002488 11% /mnt/sysimage /dev/hda1 101086 6767 89100 8% /mnt/sysimage/boot /dev/hda3 76304192 32828 72395284 1% /mnt/sysimage/single /dev/loop1 506 19 487 4% /tmp/mnt.1185 -= When I try to create a symlink to '/lib/modules' I am told: sh-2.05b# cd /lib sh-2.05b# ln -s /mnt/sysimage/lib/modules ln: creating symbolic link './modules' to '/mnt/sysimage/lib/modules': Read-only file system sh-2.05b# cd / sh-2.05b# ls -lah | grep lib lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 16 Dec 19 12:05 lib -> /mnt/runtime/lib sh-2.05b# cd /mnt/runtime/ sh-2.05b# ls -lah | grep lib drwxr-xr-x 1 root root 1.6k Jan 1 1970 lib So, have I done something stupidly wrong?? Again, you help is -very- much appreciated! Madison Robert Brockway wrote: > On Fri, 19 Dec 2003, Madison Kelly wrote: > > >>Stupid question time, where would I enter that? At the grub menu? The >>kernel panic said something about passing something to init, is that where? > > > Hi Maddy. > > Could you post the panic message you are getting (assuming the suggesting > to use "linux reiserfs" doesn't work). > > Rob -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From kmastin-PzQIwG9Jn9VAFePFGvp55w at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 19 17:14:08 2003 From: kmastin-PzQIwG9Jn9VAFePFGvp55w at public.gmane.org (Keith Mastin) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 12:14:08 -0500 (EST) Subject: hardware appraisal Message-ID: <4221.216.138.194.32.1071854048.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> How does one valuate used hardware and servers, as well as tools and materials? My company has been bought by another company that requires a third party valuation of all the equipment and inventory that I have as a condition of certain government funding arrangements (it's an indian band in B.C.). I have also been hired to run the new company, and so am too close to provide an accurate accounting of the equipment as is. Some of the servers are very dated (p120, p150, etc.) but still perform specific and valuable tasks such as archiving backups or monitoring the network. Rather than going through the hassle of re-programming the same functions into fast and furious hardware (new aka overkill for these functions) I would rather keep the current hardware and just plug it into the new location, at a considerable cost savings to the new company. Simply amortizing the cost of the hardware will not work, as it is the specific functions that they perform or the fact that a lot of it is hard to find now which makes them worth keeping. I have sale and purchase prices on all of it, including inventory, some of which is refurbished or used. I also have some very dated inventory that I keep 'just in case' it's needed somewhere, and it has proven to be very valuable for repairs or replacements on client's systems in a number of cases (replace a EDO memory stick rather and get them back up and running NOW rather than sell them a new server and have them go through considerable downtime while I program the new hardware for it's specified function). There are also tools that have no end of life, and so I'm reluctant to value them at purchase price less amortization. The replacement value of the tools is now considerably more than it was when I bought most of them, but I feel it would be unfair to stick the appreciated price on them rather than the purchase price. Any ideas or advice on this would be greatly appreciated, as I can't go ahead with the sale until I can find a correct formula for the appraisal that can be applied by an appraiser. Thanks in advance... -- Keith Mastin -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From roulton623-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 19 17:55:58 2003 From: roulton623-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Stephen Oulton) Date: 19 Dec 2003 12:55:58 -0500 Subject: Hello Every One In-Reply-To: <20031219051922.3502b5be.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <1071814309.2477.21.camel@CPE0080c6f2a89b-CM00003940c461.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com> <20031219051922.3502b5be.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <1071856551.7157.6.camel@CPE0080c6f2a89b-CM00003940c461.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com> On Fri, 2003-12-19 at 05:19, JoeHill wrote:> don't think that is should run so slow. > > Austin makes some good points re the speed factor. I have 9.1 running my > webserver on a P166, and while it won't win any contests, it certainly doesn't > take 30 seconds to open an app. > > If you open a terminal and type "top", is there anything (at the top of the > list) using a lot of your CPU time or memory? When I ran top it told me that from 5.1 to 6.6 percent of my CPU was being used. 85 programs were being used 81 were sleeping 2 were running and 2 were zombie. That doesn't seem like a lot. Maybe it is because the install crashed and I had to make it work with my limited experience. I tried to install it 3 times and it crashed during install every time. I even formated the drive and tried a clean install and it still crashed on install. Thanks Stephen Oulton -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From wildberger-iRg7kjdsKiH3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 19 13:18:38 2003 From: wildberger-iRg7kjdsKiH3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (John Wildberger) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 08:18:38 -0500 Subject: C programming question Message-ID: <200312190818.38830.wildberger@cogeco.ca> To open a file for reading precludes to know the filename. I would like to read information from specific absolute RAM addresses. Is it possible to create a file that is located starting at such a specific address?. Any suggestion on how to do this? John -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 19 18:17:25 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 13:17:25 -0500 Subject: Hello Every One In-Reply-To: <2l0263$1ui70n-W+/aXKt6084/MCZexUuWkuTW4wlIGRCZ@public.gmane.org> References: <1071814309.2477.21.camel@CPE0080c6f2a89b-CM00003940c461.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com> <20031219051922.3502b5be.joehill@sympatico.ca> <2l0263$1ui70n@toip3.bellnexxia.net> Message-ID: <20031219131725.52edb1c7.joehill@sympatico.ca> On 19 Dec 2003 12:55:58 -0500 Stephen Oulton wrote: > When I ran top it told me that from 5.1 to 6.6 percent of my CPU was > being used. > > 85 programs were being used 81 were sleeping 2 were running and 2 were > zombie. > > That doesn't seem like a lot. No, doesn't sound like anything is chewing up your CPU or memory. > Maybe it is because the install crashed and I had to make it work with > my limited experience. I tried to install it 3 times and it crashed > during install every time. > > I even formated the drive and tried a clean install and it still crashed > on install. That is highly unusual. Don't get me wrong, I had my install of 9.2 hang on me once, but I just restarted the install from scratch and all was well. I'm by no means the biggest expert on here, but I see two real possibilities: The installation is corrupted somehow. Maybe one or more of the ISO's were bad? Hence the hideously bad experience on install...always check md5sums! md5sum filename.iso and compare it to what's on the Mandrake site. More likely though is some hardware issue, I'm thinkin' bad RAM. Come to think of it, you never did mention how much RAM you have in that machine (you really should have at the very least 128, but if you are running KDE or Gnome, those can really chew up memory, so 256 is what I usually recommend). I would try swapping out the RAM and see if the performance doesn't change. Also, right after you boot up, open a term and type: dmesg > dmesg.txt then open that text file in an editor and look for any errors, esp with regard to memory. -- JoeHill ++ ICQ # 280779813 Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "Well, he might as well have been bombing Denmark." -- Gore Vidal, on the bombing of Afghanistan after 9/11 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jingsu-26n5VD7DAF2Tm46uYYfjYg at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 19 18:26:01 2003 From: jingsu-26n5VD7DAF2Tm46uYYfjYg at public.gmane.org (Jing Su) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 13:26:01 -0500 Subject: C programming question In-Reply-To: <200312190818.38830.wildberger-iRg7kjdsKiH3fQ9qLvQP4Q@public.gmane.org> References: <200312190818.38830.wildberger@cogeco.ca> Message-ID: Still not sure exactly what you're looking for, but a few hints.... Well, the OS separates the address space of different processes, so there is more work involved in sharing memory across different processes. But, you can always point to any virtual address you want by setting a void pointer to some address. For example, you could do: void* foo = 0xA0000000; and write directly to that hex address (use with caution). You can map files to memory using the mmap function... (do a man mmap). -Jing On Fri, 19 Dec 2003, John Wildberger wrote: > Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 08:18:38 -0500 > From: John Wildberger > Reply-To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > Subject: [TLUG]: C programming question > > To open a file for reading precludes to know the filename. I would like to > read information from specific absolute RAM addresses. Is it possible to > create a file that is located starting at such a specific address?. Any > suggestion on how to do this? > John > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From taavi-LbuTpDkqzNzXI80/IeQp7B2eb7JE58TQ at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 19 18:34:51 2003 From: taavi-LbuTpDkqzNzXI80/IeQp7B2eb7JE58TQ at public.gmane.org (Taavi Burns) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 11:34:51 -0700 Subject: Hello Every One In-Reply-To: <1071856551.7157.6.camel-dKL88l7hNfq+7LdUnWLbWeRNwQ1nxAZKTJmjD0f5kqEKu2YovVVDERgSKFK9O5hcLMHrShElKjA@public.gmane.org> References: <1071814309.2477.21.camel@CPE0080c6f2a89b-CM00003940c461.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com> <20031219051922.3502b5be.joehill@sympatico.ca> <1071856551.7157.6.camel@CPE0080c6f2a89b-CM00003940c461.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com> Message-ID: <20031219183451.GA59315@idiom.novusordo.net> On Fri, Dec 19, 2003 at 12:55:58PM -0500, Stephen Oulton wrote: > Maybe it is because the install crashed and I had to make it work with > my limited experience. I tried to install it 3 times and it crashed > during install every time. > > I even formated the drive and tried a clean install and it still crashed > on install. One might become suspicous of your hardware at this point. NetBSD was kinda jerky on my Duron due to some incompatibility between it and my HD controller. I think that it's NetBSD's fault, but what was really relevant is that it was downgrading to some PIO mode for HD access. That's a great way to make the computer very slow, and the mouse jerky. What hardware are you running? -- taa "I wish I were a glow worm/A glow worm's never glum Cos how can you be grumpy/When the sun shines out your bum?" /*eof*/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From wildberger-iRg7kjdsKiH3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 19 18:39:55 2003 From: wildberger-iRg7kjdsKiH3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (John Wildberger) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 13:39:55 -0500 Subject: C programming question In-Reply-To: References: <200312190818.38830.wildberger@cogeco.ca> Message-ID: <200312191339.55820.wildberger@cogeco.ca> On December 19, 2003 01:26 pm, Jing Su wrote: > Still not sure exactly what you're looking for, but a few hints.... > > Well, the OS separates the address space of different processes, so there > is more work involved in sharing memory across different processes. > > But, you can always point to any virtual address you want by setting a > void pointer to some address. For example, you could do: > void* foo = 0xA0000000; > and write directly to that hex address (use with caution). > > You can map files to memory using the mmap function... (do a man mmap). > > -Jing Thanks for your speedy reply. I will try to work with this. Thanks John -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From pmills-5bG9SNWDbRX3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 19 19:01:28 2003 From: pmills-5bG9SNWDbRX3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Phillip Mills) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 14:01:28 -0500 Subject: C programming question In-Reply-To: <200312190818.38830.wildberger-iRg7kjdsKiH3fQ9qLvQP4Q@public.gmane.org> References: <200312190818.38830.wildberger@cogeco.ca> Message-ID: On Friday, December 19, 2003, at 08:18 AM, John Wildberger wrote: > Is it possible to > create a file that is located starting at such a specific address? Do you actually need it to act like a file or are you OK with just reading as if it were an array or struct address? ........................ Phillip Mills Multi-platform software development (416) 224-0714 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From anton-F0u+EriZ6ihBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 19 19:42:13 2003 From: anton-F0u+EriZ6ihBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Anton Markov) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 14:42:13 -0500 Subject: [OT] When will the persecution of MS *end*?! In-Reply-To: <20031219055319.GA543-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20031218202223.397ba155.joehill@sympatico.ca> <20031219041045.GA265@node1.opengeometry.net> <20031218234245.0901828a.joehill@sympatico.ca> <20031219050700.GB441@node1.opengeometry.net> <20031219001438.0e209021.joehill@sympatico.ca> <20031219055319.GA543@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <3FE35495.1060300@truxtar.com> Don't bother William; I have tried to have this discussion about 3 weeks ago and got nowhere. I am giving up on these people as far as politics and economics go. I you want to know, I agree with most of your points. I'll even add my own: - Failure to OFFICIALLY support Linux (As in their latest players, etc) If you want to keep trying to push this topic... good luck. I'll just predict that this is the climax of this discussion as far as intelligent arguments go. It's just that some people have such different concepts about life... Anton William Park wrote: >On Fri, Dec 19, 2003 at 12:14:38AM -0500, JoeHill wrote: > > > >- over-estimating market potential to sell stocks. >- inability to generate revenue from actual sales. >- buying too many BMWs and having too much tan. >- reckless disregard for proper management practice. >- hiring too many MBAs. >- hiring too few programmers. >- failure to merchandize RealPlayer to manufacturers and content > providers/creators. >- failure to bring about a buyout offer from Microsoft. > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From anton-F0u+EriZ6ihBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 19 20:00:44 2003 From: anton-F0u+EriZ6ihBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Anton Markov) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 15:00:44 -0500 Subject: DVD Burning and Viewing In-Reply-To: <20031219095248.55772c81.jmyshrall-6duGhz7i8susTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org> References: <20031219095248.55772c81.jmyshrall@golden.net> Message-ID: <3FE358EC.5000802@truxtar.com> Hi John, Try using: cdrecord -scanbus and post the output. It should detect your writer and tell you the bus it is on. Also, you have to use the SCSI emulation for it by passing the following to the kernel (do this before the scanbus) where (x) is the IDE bus position of the drive: hd(x)=ide-scsi Try using XCDRoast as the burning tool. As far as burning DVD movies and stuff, I think you have to create an image of the video first using some special tools (similar to those used for SVCDs, and then burn them. I don't think XCDRoast cares about what you burn and what you burn it to, as long as you have a valid disk image to burn. Tell us what you find. Anton John Myshrall wrote: >Yesterday I installed a Sony DVD Burner and Sony DVD ROM. Both drives >were detected. > >My initial attempts with viewing a movie resulted in crashes on Xine and >Ogle. I did try to run Ogle from the command line in an x terminal as >suggested in a goolge search. > >In regards to burning. I know K3B is pretty good as is CDrecord from the >command line. Any other suggestions ? > >Both of these drives also serve as CDR-RW and CDROM. I'm thinking that I >need to ID the drives as DVD's also. Am I on the right track ? > >This system consists of an XP 1800, 512 MB memory, GF MX2-400 64 MB Video >card so horsepower is not a problem. I running Debian as a distro. > >Any help would be appreciated. > >TIA > >John >-- >The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org >TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From anton-F0u+EriZ6ihBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 19 20:08:43 2003 From: anton-F0u+EriZ6ihBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Anton Markov) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 15:08:43 -0500 Subject: Hello Every One In-Reply-To: <20031219131725.52edb1c7.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <1071814309.2477.21.camel@CPE0080c6f2a89b-CM00003940c461.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com> <20031219051922.3502b5be.joehill@sympatico.ca> <2l0263$1ui70n@toip3.bellnexxia.net> <20031219131725.52edb1c7.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <3FE35ACB.7070001@truxtar.com> I agree with JoeHill. When I was having constant crashes it was because my CPU was under-voltaged. Yet Windows XP kept running perfectly (if slower). I think Linux uses the hardware more fully, and is more effected by bad hardware. If you ever get a crash, try checking the /var/log/messages log for any kernel panics. Anton JoeHill wrote: >More likely though is some hardware issue, I'm thinkin' bad RAM. Come to think >of it, you never did mention how much RAM you have in that machine (you really >should have at the very least 128, but if you are running KDE or Gnome, those >can really chew up memory, so 256 is what I usually recommend). I would try >swapping out the RAM and see if the performance doesn't change. > >Also, right after you boot up, open a term and type: > >dmesg > dmesg.txt > >then open that text file in an editor and look for any errors, esp with regard >to memory. > > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From matt-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 19 20:18:41 2003 From: matt-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Matthew Rice) Date: 19 Dec 2003 15:18:41 -0500 Subject: hardware appraisal In-Reply-To: <4221.216.138.194.32.1071854048.squirrel-16UnNR4aCrhlws70yGkXPA@public.gmane.org> References: <4221.216.138.194.32.1071854048.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> Message-ID: "Keith Mastin" writes: > How does one valuate used hardware and servers, as well as tools and > materials? ebay for some of the tools? market rate for rebuilding some of the systems? -- matthew rice starnix inc. phone: 905-771-0017 x242 thornhill, ontario, canada http://www.starnix.com professional linux services & products -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From matt-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 19 20:23:36 2003 From: matt-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Matthew Rice) Date: 19 Dec 2003 15:23:36 -0500 Subject: C programming question In-Reply-To: <200312190818.38830.wildberger-iRg7kjdsKiH3fQ9qLvQP4Q@public.gmane.org> References: <200312190818.38830.wildberger@cogeco.ca> Message-ID: John Wildberger writes: > To open a file for reading precludes to know the filename. I would like to > read information from specific absolute RAM addresses. Is it possible to > create a file that is located starting at such a specific address?. Any > suggestion on how to do this? Do mean /dev/mem or /dev/kmem? man 4 mem, provides a starter. -- matthew rice starnix inc. phone: 905-771-0017 x242 thornhill, ontario, canada http://www.starnix.com professional linux services & products -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jmyshrall-6duGhz7i8susTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 19 20:42:07 2003 From: jmyshrall-6duGhz7i8susTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (John Myshrall) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 15:42:07 -0500 Subject: DVD Burning and Viewing In-Reply-To: <3FE358EC.5000802-F0u+EriZ6ihBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20031219095248.55772c81.jmyshrall@golden.net> <3FE358EC.5000802@truxtar.com> Message-ID: <20031219154207.17c69c2a.jmyshrall@golden.net> On Fri, 19 Dec 2003 15:00:44 -0500 Anton Markov wrote: > Hi John, > > Try using: > > cdrecord -scanbus > > and post the output. It should detect your writer and tell you the > bus it is on. > > Also, you have to use the SCSI emulation for it by passing the > following to the > kernel (do this before the scanbus) where (x) is the IDE bus position > of the drive: > > hd(x)=ide-scsi > > Try using XCDRoast as the burning tool. As far as burning DVD movies > and stuff, > I think you have to create an image of the video first using some > special tools > (similar to those used for SVCDs, and then burn them. I don't think > XCDRoast > cares about what you burn and what you burn it to, as long as you have > a valid > disk image to burn. > > Tell us what you find. Here is the output. Cdrecord-Clone 2.01a19 (i686-pc-linux-gnu) Copyright (C) 1995-2003 J\x{00F6}rg Schilling Using libscg version 'schily-0.7' scsibus0: 0,0,0 0) 'SONY ' 'DVD RW DW-U14A ' '1.0d' Removable CD-ROM 0,1,0 1) 'SONY ' 'DVD-ROM DDU1612 ' 'DYS3' Removable CD-ROM 0,2,0 2) * 0,3,0 3) * 0,4,0 4) * 0,5,0 5) * 0,6,0 6) * 0,7,0 7) * I have been researching the ogle and xine sights and have yet to figure out the playing yet. Thanks for you help. John -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From tim-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 19 20:45:51 2003 From: tim-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Tim Writer) Date: 19 Dec 2003 15:45:51 -0500 Subject: LVM, 'ext3' to 'reiserfs' conertion on '/' on software RAID5 In-Reply-To: <3FE2EA09.4050009-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <3FE2EA09.4050009@alteeve.com> Message-ID: Madison Kelly writes: > Hi TLUG! [much about reiserfs and LVM snipped] > The problem is that when I boot into the OS proper something somewhere is > still telling something to do with LVM that the file system is still ext3 > and thus it throws a kernel panic. I have edited '/etc/fstab', '/etc/mtab' > and '/etc/blkid.tab' to read 'reiserfs' instead of the original 'ext3'. Am > I missing a file somewhere? Is there a command I need to run to tell > '/etc/lvmtab' or '/etc/lvmtab.d/root' that the filesystem has changed? Am > I missing something all together different? Is reiserfs builtin to the kernel. If not (and perhaps even if it is), you may need to build a new initrd with mkinitrd. HTH, P.S. It's generally not recommended to put / on LVM since it can make recovery from disk failure difficult if not impossible. -- tim writer starnix inc. 905.771.0017 ext. 225 thornhill, ontario, canada http://www.starnix.com professional linux services & products -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From JimS-pFJmkVL1u50 at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 19 20:57:13 2003 From: JimS-pFJmkVL1u50 at public.gmane.org (Jim Skehill) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 15:57:13 -0500 Subject: C programming question Message-ID: <33678E78A2DD4D418396703A750048D4BD1E52@RIKER> If you are programming in C you can go down to the assembler level and issue a BIOS interrupt (sorry I don't recall the number) to write to a particular disk location. DOS interrupt 25H allows you to write to a particular disk sector, but seeing that this is the TLUG Mailing list, I don't imagine that's of much help to you. Jim. -----Original Message----- From: John Wildberger [mailto:wildberger-iRg7kjdsKiH3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org] Sent: Friday, December 19, 2003 8:19 AM To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Subject: [TLUG]: C programming question To open a file for reading precludes to know the filename. I would like to read information from specific absolute RAM addresses. Is it possible to create a file that is located starting at such a specific address?. Any suggestion on how to do this? John -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From awh-z32R3RYGf1M at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 19 21:03:09 2003 From: awh-z32R3RYGf1M at public.gmane.org (Drew Hamilton) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 16:03:09 -0500 Subject: gdb front-ends? Message-ID: <20031219210309.GA29663%awh@awh.org> As it turns out, I'm too stupid (well, too impatient really) to use gdb by itself. I'd prefer something that gave a listing of the source code on the screen, showed the currently-executing line, etc. There seems to be about 18,732 different gdb front-ends out there. Does anyone have any preference? - awh -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From taavi-LbuTpDkqzNzXI80/IeQp7B2eb7JE58TQ at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 19 21:07:41 2003 From: taavi-LbuTpDkqzNzXI80/IeQp7B2eb7JE58TQ at public.gmane.org (Taavi Burns) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 14:07:41 -0700 Subject: DVD Burning and Viewing In-Reply-To: <3FE358EC.5000802-F0u+EriZ6ihBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20031219095248.55772c81.jmyshrall@golden.net> <3FE358EC.5000802@truxtar.com> Message-ID: <20031219210741.GA63641@idiom.novusordo.net> On Fri, Dec 19, 2003 at 03:00:44PM -0500, Anton Markov wrote: > Also, you have to use the SCSI emulation for it by passing the following > to the > kernel (do this before the scanbus) where (x) is the IDE bus position of > the drive: cdrecord 2.0 with kernel something like 2.4.19 (I can't remember which exactly, but some time in the late 2.4 series) can burn quite happily using just the IDE driver. Your commandline starts to look something like this (yes, I have but one IDE channel, so hdb is my burner): cdrecord dev=ATAPI:/dev/hdb speed=24 image.iso I installed XCDRoast the other day. I'm not sure if I put the ATAPI configuration bit in a magic file somewhere months ago, or if it was smart enough to see the IDE burner for what it was. It "just worked". Next I'd like to see cdrdao have ATAPI support, though I haven't caught myself wanting to burn any VCDs lately -- taa Science is but a perversion of itself unless it has as its ultimate goal the betterment of humanity. --Nikola Tesla /*eof*/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From taavi-LbuTpDkqzNzXI80/IeQp7B2eb7JE58TQ at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 19 21:09:00 2003 From: taavi-LbuTpDkqzNzXI80/IeQp7B2eb7JE58TQ at public.gmane.org (Taavi Burns) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 14:09:00 -0700 Subject: gdb front-ends? In-Reply-To: <20031219210309.GA29663%awh-z32R3RYGf1M@public.gmane.org> References: <20031219210309.GA29663%awh@awh.org> Message-ID: <20031219210900.GB63641@idiom.novusordo.net> On Fri, Dec 19, 2003 at 04:03:09PM -0500, Drew Hamilton wrote: > There seems to be about 18,732 different gdb front-ends out there. Does > anyone have any preference? I believe the canonical one is 'ddd'. -- taa I never think of the future. It comes soon enough. --Albert Einstein /*eof*/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From skuznets-WRMZ5ucGVl4BXFe83j6qeQ at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 19 21:15:30 2003 From: skuznets-WRMZ5ucGVl4BXFe83j6qeQ at public.gmane.org (Sergey Kuznetsov) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 16:15:30 -0500 Subject: gdb front-ends? In-Reply-To: <20031219210309.GA29663%awh-z32R3RYGf1M@public.gmane.org> References: <20031219210309.GA29663%awh@awh.org> Message-ID: <200312191615.30623.skuznets@blueprint.org> > As it turns out, I'm too stupid (well, too impatient really) to use gdb > by itself. I'd prefer something that gave a listing of the source code > on the screen, showed the currently-executing line, etc. > > There seems to be about 18,732 different gdb front-ends out there. Does > anyone have any preference? > I am using ddd. for solaris' dbx it will be ddd --dbx programname for gdb - ddd --gdb programname or ddd programname for perl - ddd --perl programname for java - ddd --jdb programname wdb = ddd --wdb programname xdb = ddd --xdb programname The interface is not perfect, but neat. -- All the Best! ----------------- Sergey Kuznetsov Senior Software Developer Blueprint Initiative Samuel Lunenfeld Research Institute at Mount Sinai Hospital -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From wildberger-iRg7kjdsKiH3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 19 21:52:51 2003 From: wildberger-iRg7kjdsKiH3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (John Wildberger) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 16:52:51 -0500 Subject: C programming question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200312191652.51777.wildberger@cogeco.ca> On December 19, 2003 02:01 pm, Phillip Mills wrote: > On Friday, December 19, 2003, at 08:18 AM, John Wildberger wrote: > > Is it possible to > > create a file that is located starting at such a specific address? > > Do you actually need it to act like a file or are you OK with just > reading as if it were an array or struct address? My main aim is to understand the workings of the kernel a little bit better. For this reason I would like to verify what is stored in the first few hundred memory locations. e.g in x202 the signature HdrS is supposed to be stored. So to answer your question: Any which way that would get me on the screen the memory content of preselected locations would do. Jing Su has pointed out one way to accomplish this. My C programming is rusty and it will therefore take some time to follow up his lead. Any other suggestion will be very much appreciated. Thanks, John -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From skuznets-WRMZ5ucGVl4BXFe83j6qeQ at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 19 22:14:00 2003 From: skuznets-WRMZ5ucGVl4BXFe83j6qeQ at public.gmane.org (Sergey Kuznetsov) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 17:14:00 -0500 Subject: C programming question In-Reply-To: <200312191652.51777.wildberger-iRg7kjdsKiH3fQ9qLvQP4Q@public.gmane.org> References: <200312191652.51777.wildberger@cogeco.ca> Message-ID: <200312191714.00989.skuznets@blueprint.org> > > My main aim is to understand the workings of the kernel a little bit > better. For this reason I would like to verify what is stored in the first > few hundred memory locations. e.g in x202 the signature HdrS is supposed to > be stored. 1. First of all, what kind of operation system you are talking about? Linux, *BSD, Windoh$ ? 2. What memory you want to reach: kernel space or userland space or even physical memory? 3. Do you have root access to that machine? 4. What kind of memory structures you have a desire to reach? If you will give the answer to this questions, I can help you with answer. -- All the Best! ----------------- Sergey Kuznetsov Senior Software Developer Blueprint Initiative Samuel Lunenfeld Research Institute at Mount Sinai Hospital -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From kcozens-qazKcTl6WRFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 19 22:22:09 2003 From: kcozens-qazKcTl6WRFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Kevin Cozens) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 17:22:09 -0500 Subject: gdb front-ends? In-Reply-To: <20031219210309.GA29663%awh-z32R3RYGf1M@public.gmane.org> References: <20031219210309.GA29663%awh@awh.org> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20031219172007.0230f020@mail.interlog.com> At 04:03 PM 12/19/2003 -0500, awh wrote: >There seems to be about 18,732 different gdb front-ends out there. Does >anyone have any preference? My vote would be for DDD. It is the first one I found (I didn't like raw gdb either). It isn't perfect but it sure makes code development a little easier. Depending on what you are doing, there is also the possibility of using something like RHIDE which is an integrated development environment similar to the old Borland IDE. Cheers! Kevin. (http://www.interlog.com/~kcozens/) Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172 |"What are we going to do today, Borg?" E-mail:kcozens at interlog dot com|"Same thing we always do, Pinkutus: Packet:ve3syb-XXPEJ3/fxIc at public.gmane.org#con.on.ca.na| Try to assimilate the world!" #include | -Pinkutus & the Borg -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From wildberger-iRg7kjdsKiH3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 19 22:28:14 2003 From: wildberger-iRg7kjdsKiH3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (John Wildberger) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 17:28:14 -0500 Subject: C programming question In-Reply-To: <200312191714.00989.skuznets-WRMZ5ucGVl4BXFe83j6qeQ@public.gmane.org> References: <200312191652.51777.wildberger@cogeco.ca> <200312191714.00989.skuznets@blueprint.org> Message-ID: <200312191728.14694.wildberger@cogeco.ca> On December 19, 2003 05:14 pm, Sergey Kuznetsov wrote: > > My main aim is to understand the workings of the kernel a little bit > > better. For this reason I would like to verify what is stored in the > > first few hundred memory locations. e.g in x202 the signature HdrS is > > supposed to be stored. > > 1. First of all, what kind of operation system you are talking about? > Linux, *BSD, Windoh$ ? Linux Mdk9.1 > > 2. What memory you want to reach: kernel space or userland space or even > physical memory? Physical memory > > 3. Do you have root access to that machine? Yes, and I don't mind screwing it up. :-( > > 4. What kind of memory structures you have a desire to reach? Not sure of this question, but would like to read first few hundred bytes of my RAM. > > If you will give the answer to this questions, I can help you with answer. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From legrady-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 19 22:36:34 2003 From: legrady-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Tom Legrady) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 17:36:34 -0500 Subject: gdb front-ends? In-Reply-To: <20031219210309.GA29663%awh-z32R3RYGf1M@public.gmane.org> References: <20031219210309.GA29663%awh@awh.org> Message-ID: <3FE37D72.60406@rogers.com> gdb on it's own is tolerable, but emacs / gdb is much better Tom Drew Hamilton wrote: >As it turns out, I'm too stupid (well, too impatient really) to use gdb >by itself. I'd prefer something that gave a listing of the source code >on the screen, showed the currently-executing line, etc. > >There seems to be about 18,732 different gdb front-ends out there. Does >anyone have any preference? > > - awh > >-- >The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org >TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From kcozens-qazKcTl6WRFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 19 22:37:20 2003 From: kcozens-qazKcTl6WRFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Kevin Cozens) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 17:37:20 -0500 Subject: DVD Burning and Viewing In-Reply-To: <20031219095248.55772c81.jmyshrall-6duGhz7i8susTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org> References: <20031219095248.55772c81.jmyshrall@golden.net> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20031219172412.022d4580@mail.interlog.com> At 09:52 AM 12/19/2003 -0500, John wrote: >My initial attempts with viewing a movie resulted in crashes on Xine and >Ogle. I did try to run Ogle from the command line in an x terminal as >suggested in a goolge search. Ogle is the DVD player software I have tried to use. It was the first one I read about that was supposed to be able to play encrypted discs and was supposed to have support for the menus on the DVD. Whether it can play a given DVD or not seems to be a bit of a coin toss. Some times it will work and sometimes it won't. Depends on which DVD you give it and what features the DVD uses. The program seems to choke at start up (ie. before it gets to displaying the DVD's menu) with some DVDs. I haven't tried Xine for movie or DVD playback yet. The one other observation about Ogle is that its playback seems to need more CPU horsepower than the PowerDVD software I use in Windows. PowerDVD is just able to play DVD's acceptably on my Pentium II 266MHz machine. With Ogle under Linux the video playback starts dropping the odd frames which is just barely noticeable. >In regards to burning. I know K3B is pretty good as is CDrecord from the >command line. Any other suggestions ? When I first got a CD Burner, the burner software made the Windows side of my machine unstable so I tried burning under Linux. I XCDRoast for burning these days and it works fine. The alpha14 version (IIRC) had experimental support for direct support of IDE-ATAPI drives but the latest alpha15 version has dropped that for some reason. If you are using IDE drives, you need to tell the kernel to use the ide-scsi module for the (hdc/hdd) drives. In XCDRoast, you would select the SCSI versions of your drives as the ones to use (it will show you both the IDE and SCSI versions). Also, since you have DVD writers, you can get the ProDVD plug-in for XCDroast which allows you to write to DVD disks. If you check last months Linux Journal they have more information on software to make the image files for a DVD. Cheers! Kevin. (http://www.interlog.com/~kcozens/) Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172 |"What are we going to do today, Borg?" E-mail:kcozens at interlog dot com|"Same thing we always do, Pinkutus: Packet:ve3syb-XXPEJ3/fxIc at public.gmane.org#con.on.ca.na| Try to assimilate the world!" #include | -Pinkutus & the Borg -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From mgjk-cpI+UMyWUv9BDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 19 22:45:30 2003 From: mgjk-cpI+UMyWUv9BDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Mike Kallies) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 17:45:30 -0500 Subject: Wiring for data in houses Message-ID: <3FE37F8A.20504@idirect.com> Hello everyone, This is only loosely related to Linux, but it is certainly related to home networking in Ontario. I'm looking for some of the "offical" information about how to wire data wiring in houses legally. I know, every guide says use plenum-rated wire, and I know there are tricks to prevent interference etc. But what I really want is just the authoritative information about what the requirements are in Ontario. Is it really that simple? I'd hate to wire it up only to have somebody need to rip it out in the future as a fire hazard. I was thinking of cat3 phonewire, 2 sets of cat6 data (material costs are less than the work to install it), and some cable tv coax and speaker wire. I was also thinking of some interesting data jack locations for outside network-enabled cameras, wireless access points and wiring closets. Rumour has it that people are also wiring in fibre these days, even if it is unused. Unused cat6 pairs could also be used for home automation, or who knows what else. Wireless is not going to be a perfect replacement for this stuff for a long time, today it is slow and suffers from privacy issues. Tomorrow it will be faster, but whether or not it will cater to impractical geeks remains to be seen. Besides, it's fun to hack around with this stuff. Another reason I want to do this however is because it is an old house... I'm going to be doing some electrical & plumbing upgrades, and afterwards, I'm going to be using some blow-in insulation for energy efficiency and soundproofing... which will make future wire installations an order of magnitude more difficult. The thought also crossed my mind to use armoured cable and carefully placed pull-locations, so that some nut in the future can wire up their post apocolyptic EMP resistant pneumatic computer networks, or whatever other oddities appear. Most of the work will be done next year. Currently, I'm researching so that I can plan things out reasonably well. I'll probably be doing a couple small runs in the next month or two, if they fit a master-plan, all the better. -Mike -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From kmastin-PzQIwG9Jn9VAFePFGvp55w at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 19 22:41:22 2003 From: kmastin-PzQIwG9Jn9VAFePFGvp55w at public.gmane.org (Keith Mastin) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 17:41:22 -0500 (EST) Subject: Wiring for data in houses In-Reply-To: <3FE37F8A.20504-cpI+UMyWUv9BDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <3FE37F8A.20504@idirect.com> Message-ID: <1119.216.138.194.32.1071873682.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> > Hello everyone, > > This is only loosely related to Linux, but it is certainly related to > home networking in Ontario. > > I'm looking for some of the "offical" information about how to wire data > wiring in houses legally. I know, every guide says use plenum-rated > wire, and I know there are tricks to prevent interference etc. But what > I really want is just the authoritative information about what the > requirements are in Ontario. Is it really that simple? I'd hate to > wire it up only to have somebody need to rip it out in the future as a > fire hazard. You really have to consult the fire marshall or the building inspector's office on this. AFAIK plenum cable is only necessary if you are breaching a "fire barrier". If you are gutting the interior walls of the house, you may want to string conduits to plan for future use at the same time. We've been stringing cable for a couple years, and have been told the rules but have yet to be referred to any documentation on it. Since there's no electrical load, the consensus has been to use plenum when breaching a fire barriar or going between floors, and outdoor cable if slinging alongside the building for those hard to reach drops. -- Keith Mastin (416)429 9304 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From skuznets-WRMZ5ucGVl4BXFe83j6qeQ at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 19 23:08:04 2003 From: skuznets-WRMZ5ucGVl4BXFe83j6qeQ at public.gmane.org (Sergey Kuznetsov) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 18:08:04 -0500 Subject: C programming question In-Reply-To: <200312191728.14694.wildberger-iRg7kjdsKiH3fQ9qLvQP4Q@public.gmane.org> References: <200312191714.00989.skuznets@blueprint.org> <200312191728.14694.wildberger@cogeco.ca> Message-ID: <200312191808.04306.skuznets@blueprint.org> On December 19, 2003 05:28 pm, John Wildberger wrote: > On December 19, 2003 05:14 pm, Sergey Kuznetsov wrote: > > > My main aim is to understand the workings of the kernel a little bit > > > better. For this reason I would like to verify what is stored in the > > > first few hundred memory locations. e.g in x202 the signature HdrS is > > > supposed to be stored. > > > > 1. First of all, what kind of operation system you are talking about? > > Linux, *BSD, Windoh$ ? > > Linux Mdk9.1 > > > 2. What memory you want to reach: kernel space or userland space or even > > physical memory? > > Physical memory > > > 3. Do you have root access to that machine? > > Yes, and I don't mind screwing it up. :-( > In this case you can't reach the physical memory. Intel processors ( and other CPU as well ) protects the access to the real physical memory. Only kernel have access to it. You can do it only thru the kernel space as a driver module, or thru the /proc/kcore, but this is file in format of core file, you should know how to handle and read it. you can do the next stuff: gdb /boot/ /proc/kcore and then you can see what in the memory (type 'help' in command prompt of gdb ). If you want to know how the kernel works, can read Linux Device Drivers by Alessandro Rubini ( http://www.xml.com/ldd/chapter/book/bookindexpdf.html ) and site named kernel newbies dot org ( http://www.kernelnewbies.org/ )/ > > 4. What kind of memory structures you have a desire to reach? > > Not sure of this question, but would like to read first few hundred bytes > of my RAM. > What the reason to do such stuff? If you want to know how the Linux works - see the /usr/src/linux sub-directory. =) -- All the Best! ----------------- Sergey Kuznetsov Senior Software Developer Blueprint Initiative Samuel Lunenfeld Research Institute at Mount Sinai Hospital -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 19 23:13:01 2003 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 18:13:01 -0500 Subject: Waaaay offtopic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3FE385FD.5000301@rogers.com> Hugh Reilly wrote: >>> Maybe next year, you'll get a flu shot. >> >> >> I know a lot of people who did who got sick anyway. This years strain >> seemed to have been missed. I can see you have been taken by the >> christmas spirit! > > > I have an African friend who thinks that the AIDS virus was introduced > there through mass vaccination programs. Makes me seriously wonder why > so much ENORMOUS hype has gone into Ontario's flushot program. Why would he know about the cause of it? As for vaccines, ask anyone who was around prior to WW2, about all the diseases that killed friends and family, that we never hear about now, thanks to vaccines. I'm not saying they're without risk, but they're generally much better than the consequences of not having them. > > Has anyone out there heard of the "zapper", invented by Saskatchewan > naturopathic doctor and celll biologist Hulda Clark? She claims that > disease-causing bacteria and viruses in the body can be killed by > low-level radio frequencies. The zapper delivers that frequency to the > body, and has been claimed by some to actually cure AIDS. One person I'd never believe is a naturopathic "doctor". Naturopathy is based on a bogus belief that a tiny amount of something that causes the same symptoms as a disease will cure or prevent it. The problem is, that the doses generally prescribed are physically impossible. For example a common dilution of the "medicine" is 10X or divided with water or alcohol 10:1, 10 times. The problem with this amount of dilution, is that the number of molecules gets in the way. In order to consume one molecule of the substance, you'd have to drink several thousand gallons of water. They also have another dilution of 100C, which is 100:1 100 times, which is even more impossible. You might want to read "Voodoo Science" by Dr. Robert Park or "A Demon Haunted World", by Carl Sagan for further info. > > I have been experimenting myself with the device, having built several > over the past couple of years. And I have to say, with very positive > results. And I am NOT getting a flu shot! > > > > -Hugh > _______________________________________________ > Hugh Reilly > XEN Technology Group | LinuxLab > 600 Bay Street, Suite 405 > Toronto ON M5R 1G6 > tel: 416-204-9951 > fax: 416-204-9723 > email: info-2K4XOyu7qTosA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org > _______________________________________________ > http://www.xen.ca | http://www.linuxlab.ca > > _________________________________________________________________ > The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* > http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/bcomm&pgmarket=en-ca&RU=http%3a%2f%2fjoin.msn.com%2f%3fpage%3dmisc%2fspecialoffers%26pgmarket%3den-ca > > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 19 23:23:29 2003 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 18:23:29 -0500 Subject: Waaaay offtopic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3FE38871.6030002@rogers.com> Hugh Reilly wrote: > Has anyone out there heard of the "zapper", invented by Saskatchewan > naturopathic doctor and celll biologist Hulda Clark? She claims that > disease-causing bacteria and viruses in the body can be killed by > low-level radio frequencies. The zapper delivers that frequency to the > body, and has been claimed by some to actually cure AIDS. If that's all it takes, we're all going to be fine. We're constantly bathed in RF from many sources. The above claim, indicates she's a fraud. > > I have been experimenting myself with the device, having built several > over the past couple of years. And I have to say, with very positive > results. And I am NOT getting a flu shot! How do you know you've had positive results? Did you run a full study, with several participant, including a control group? If not, all you've got is a delusion. I could claim that eating pizza & beer prevents disease. After all, I've had lots of both and rarely get sick (only one sick day in 21 years, with one employer). -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From anton-F0u+EriZ6ihBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 19 23:43:18 2003 From: anton-F0u+EriZ6ihBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Anton Markov) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 18:43:18 -0500 Subject: Redhat or generic kernel? and DevFS Message-ID: <3FE38D16.8090708@truxtar.com> Hello everyone, Now that Kernel 2.6 is out, and there winter break is here, I am planning on compiling myself a new kernel. I have tried the 2.6 test kernels before, and have compiled other kernels, so I am comfortable with the compiling (mind you, 2.6 makes compiling so much easier). I have one question: should I use the generic kernels from kernel.org, or the unofficial Redhat kernel source packages. I find the Redhat packages work with slightly fewer bugs (and dependancies are sorted out with apt-get very nicely), so is there any reason to use the generic kernels? Also, I want to switch to DevFS. I have tried using DevFS under the 2.6 test kernels, but I had many problems with the format of the /etc/modprobe.conf file and such (had to get the new modutils and all). Is there any guide for DevFS written for 2.6? Thanks. Anton Markov -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 20 00:32:57 2003 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 19:32:57 -0500 Subject: Cogeco.ca blocking incoming port 25 smtp In-Reply-To: <3fe309eb.bb.4e6e.30124-iRg7kjdsKiH3fQ9qLvQP4Q@public.gmane.org> References: <3fe309eb.bb.4e6e.30124@cogeco.ca> Message-ID: <20031220003257.GA372@node1.opengeometry.net> On Fri, Dec 19, 2003 at 09:23:39AM -0500, pegasoft-iRg7kjdsKiH3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org wrote: > Hi All, > > Has anyone else notice if cogeco has begun blocking incoming port 25? > I can send email from my mail server but I'm not receiving anything > for the last two days... > > Thanks, They blocked dynamic IP when I tried to send to . So, I relayed through my ISP. Since I haven't received any reject message, I assume it's in queue somewhere. Hmm, $ telnet cogeco.ca 25 554 5.7.1 zues2.cgocable.net Connection not authorized $ telnet zues2.cgocable.net 25 220 zues2.cgocable.net ESMTP service $ host -t mx cogeco.ca cogeco.ca mail is handled by 0 MX.cogeco.ca. Someone goofed. Tell them to fix typo in their DNS zonefile. -- William Park, Open Geometry Consulting, Linux solution for data management and processing. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From hughreilly1-PkbjNfxxIARBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 20 00:36:53 2003 From: hughreilly1-PkbjNfxxIARBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Hugh Reilly) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 19:36:53 -0500 Subject: Waaaay offtopic Message-ID: >From: Henry Spencer >Reply-To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org >To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org >Subject: Re: [TLUG]: Waaaay offtopic >Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 11:42:08 -0500 (EST) > >On Fri, 19 Dec 2003, Hugh Reilly wrote: > > I have an African friend who thinks that the AIDS virus was introduced >there > > through mass vaccination programs. > >That idea was taken seriously enough to be investigated at some length, >but the evidence is strongly and clearly against it. Easy to say, but where is this "evidence". Did you read about it or watch it on TV? > > Makes me seriously wonder why so much > > ENORMOUS hype has gone into Ontario's flushot program. > >Because vaccinating people is a lot cheaper than looking after the bad >cases in hospitals. Yes, the best propaganda always sound plausible, doesn't it? > > > ...The zapper delivers that frequency to the body, and has > > been claimed by some to actually cure AIDS. >*Lots* of things have been claimed by some to cure AIDS. What is lacking, >in all cases, is clear proof. What do you call proof? What passes for "official" history, doctrine, or policy these days is far too influenced by spin doctors acting on behalf of financial interests. Facts that don't help someone's bottom line are too often ignored. You want proof? Prove it to yourself. Call me and I'll set you up with a zapper. -Hugh _______________________________________________ Hugh Reilly XEN Technology Group | LinuxLab 600 Bay Street, Suite 405 Toronto ON M5R 1G6 tel: 416-204-9951 fax: 416-204-9723 email: info-2K4XOyu7qTosA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org _______________________________________________ http://www.xen.ca | http://www.linuxlab.ca _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/features&pgmarket=en-ca&RU=http%3a%2f%2fjoin.msn.com%2f%3fpage%3dmisc%2fspecialoffers%26pgmarket%3den-ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 20 00:43:29 2003 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 19:43:29 -0500 Subject: Wiring for data in houses In-Reply-To: <3FE37F8A.20504-cpI+UMyWUv9BDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <3FE37F8A.20504@idirect.com> Message-ID: <20031220004329.GB372@node1.opengeometry.net> On Fri, Dec 19, 2003 at 05:45:30PM -0500, Mike Kallies wrote: > Hello everyone, > > This is only loosely related to Linux, but it is certainly related to > home networking in Ontario. > > I'm looking for some of the "offical" information about how to wire data > wiring in houses legally. I know, every guide says use plenum-rated > wire, and I know there are tricks to prevent interference etc. But what > I really want is just the authoritative information about what the > requirements are in Ontario. Is it really that simple? I'd hate to > wire it up only to have somebody need to rip it out in the future as a > fire hazard. Doesn't the regular phone cable and regular ethernet cable already meet residential code? If they're substandard, then aweful lot of houses have to be renovated. :-) -- William Park, Open Geometry Consulting, Linux solution for data management and processing. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 20 01:11:32 2003 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 20:11:32 -0500 Subject: Waaaay offtopic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20031220011132.GC372@node1.opengeometry.net> On Fri, Dec 19, 2003 at 07:36:53PM -0500, Hugh Reilly wrote: > >> I have an African friend who thinks that the AIDS virus was > >> introduced there through mass vaccination programs. > > >That idea was taken seriously enough to be investigated at some > >length, but the evidence is strongly and clearly against it. > > Easy to say, but where is this "evidence". Did you read about it or > watch it on TV? I don't think the vaccine is the immediate culprit. Perhaps, using same needle over and over again may be more relevant. But, yes, there are fundamental issues about vaccination. Humans, bacteria, virus, and other parasitic organisms have been around for long time, and things settle into equilibrium over time. There are academic question about whether over-vaccinating disturbs that equilibrium. In particular, researchers are now thinking aloud that childhood diseases (which we have targeted through vaccination) may be necessary factor in the proper development of human body, and that vaccination only creates other immune related problems. There were some study into whether vaccination and over-use of estrogenic compounds (I think they were talking about shampoos) are related to the general decline in male virility. I'm not into biology, so I don't where it went. Even so, I don't think cosmetic companies are to blame. :-) > > >> Makes me seriously wonder why so much ENORMOUS hype has gone into > >> Ontario's flushot program. > > > >Because vaccinating people is a lot cheaper than looking after the > >bad cases in hospitals. > > Yes, the best propaganda always sound plausible, doesn't it? Of course, people runs company to make money. Vaccine company makes and sells vaccine. Milk company sells milk, and will say it's good for you. Even though the only people who are losing bone calcium are those who drink milk like water, they will defend their livelihood. Did you expect something else, Hugh? -- William Park, Open Geometry Consulting, Linux solution for data management and processing. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From hughreilly1-PkbjNfxxIARBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 20 01:25:30 2003 From: hughreilly1-PkbjNfxxIARBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Hugh Reilly) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 20:25:30 -0500 Subject: Waaaay offtopic Message-ID: >From: James Knott >Reply-To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org >To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org >Subject: Re: [TLUG]: Waaaay offtopic >Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 18:23:29 -0500 > >Hugh Reilly wrote: >>Has anyone out there heard of the "zapper", invented by Saskatchewan >>naturopathic doctor and celll biologist Hulda Clark? She claims that >>disease-causing bacteria and viruses in the body can be killed by >>low-level radio frequencies. The zapper delivers that frequency to the >>body, and has been claimed by some to actually cure AIDS. > >If that's all it takes, we're all going to be fine. We're constantly >bathed in RF from many sources. The above claim, indicates she's a fraud. No it doesn't. The science behind it is, of course, more complex than you could have known from my post. What I find interesting is that that didn't stop you from jumping to conclusions. >>I have been experimenting myself with the device, having built several >>over the past couple of years. And I have to say, with very positive >>results. And I am NOT getting a flu shot! > >How do you know you've had positive results? Did you run a full study, >with several participant, including a control group? If not, all you've >got is a delusion. I could claim that eating pizza & beer prevents >disease. After all, I've had lots of both and rarely get sick (only one >sick day in 21 years, with one employer). I don't need to employ the scientific method to prove something to myself. Neither do you, unless you don't trust yourself. If pizza and beer works for you, who am I to argue? >The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org >TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -Hugh _______________________________________________ Hugh Reilly XEN Technology Group | LinuxLab 600 Bay Street, Suite 405 Toronto ON M5R 1G6 tel: 416-204-9951 fax: 416-204-9723 email: info-2K4XOyu7qTosA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org _______________________________________________ http://www.xen.ca | http://www.linuxlab.ca _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus&pgmarket=en-ca&RU=http%3a%2f%2fjoin.msn.com%2f%3fpage%3dmisc%2fspecialoffers%26pgmarket%3den-ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 20 01:34:14 2003 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 20:34:14 -0500 Subject: When will the persecution of MS *end*?! In-Reply-To: <20031219052924.415aa9c9.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <20031218202223.397ba155.joehill@sympatico.ca> <20031219041045.GA265@node1.opengeometry.net> <20031218234245.0901828a.joehill@sympatico.ca> <20031219050700.GB441@node1.opengeometry.net> <20031219001438.0e209021.joehill@sympatico.ca> <20031219055319.GA543@node1.opengeometry.net> <20031219052924.415aa9c9.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <20031220013414.GA500@node1.opengeometry.net> On Fri, Dec 19, 2003 at 05:29:24AM -0500, JoeHill wrote: > > - inability to generate revenue from actual sales. > > ...because some company convicted of being an illegal monopoly is > pulling the rug out from under you. This is the case of loser blaming the winner for winning. Real was trying to win over Microsoft, no? -- William Park, Open Geometry Consulting, Linux solution for data management and processing. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 20 01:44:23 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 20:44:23 -0500 Subject: Waaaay offtopic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20031219204423.7dcdf4af.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Fri, 19 Dec 2003 20:25:30 -0500 "Hugh Reilly" wrote: > >From: James Knott > >Reply-To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > >To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > >Subject: Re: [TLUG]: Waaaay offtopic > >Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 18:23:29 -0500 > > > >Hugh Reilly wrote: > >>Has anyone out there heard of the "zapper", invented by Saskatchewan > >>naturopathic doctor and celll biologist Hulda Clark? She claims that > >>disease-causing bacteria and viruses in the body can be killed by > >>low-level radio frequencies. The zapper delivers that frequency to the > >>body, and has been claimed by some to actually cure AIDS. > > > >If that's all it takes, we're all going to be fine. We're constantly > >bathed in RF from many sources. The above claim, indicates she's a fraud. > > No it doesn't. The science behind it is, of course, more complex than you > could have known from my post. What I find interesting is that that didn't > stop you from jumping to conclusions. Holy crap, all I wanted to do was give anyone else out there with the flu a "I know how yer feelin'", I never thought it would come to this. Sorry, but I'm gonna hafta do it. *Hitler* caused AIDS. Muahahahahaha! -- JoeHill ++ ICQ # 280779813 Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ The United States Drug Enforcement Agency estimates pot smuggling from the western province of British Columbia alone is worth more than $1 billion a year. This is *very* bad, because Bush and his pals are not seeing one dime of that. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 20 01:53:07 2003 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 20:53:07 -0500 Subject: When will the persecution of MS *end*?! In-Reply-To: <3FE2E69B.2070804-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <20031219041045.GA265@node1.opengeometry.net> <20031219042437.FTYH317816.fep04-mail.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com@pittlandctr8at> <20031219044923.GA441@node1.opengeometry.net> <3FE2E69B.2070804@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20031220015307.GA588@node1.opengeometry.net> On Fri, Dec 19, 2003 at 06:52:59AM -0500, James Knott wrote: > >RealNetwork is like after-market car radio company that is suing GM > >because GM has the arrogance to put radio in all GM cars, thereby > >shutting out after-market radio companies. > > Actually, that matter did go to court and the auto makers lost. What do you mean they lost? You mean GM can't sell red cars, because that will shutout after-market companies selling red paints? -- William Park, Open Geometry Consulting, Linux solution for data management and processing. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 20 02:05:11 2003 From: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 21:05:11 -0500 (EST) Subject: Wiring for data in houses In-Reply-To: <3FE37F8A.20504-cpI+UMyWUv9BDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <3FE37F8A.20504@idirect.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Dec 2003, Mike Kallies wrote: > I was thinking of cat3 phonewire, 2 sets of cat6 data (material costs I really wouldn't bother with cat3. Run another length of cat6. I did this in my home in Australia (well, cat5a which was the highest category at the time) and have the flexibility to patch phone or data around the house using the cat6. My other suggestion is to consider getting a professional in this area. They'll take care of interference issues[1], etc, and really aren't expensive. [1] Well, the good ones will, anyway :) > Wireless is not going to be a perfect replacement for this stuff for a > long time, today it is slow and suffers from privacy issues. Tomorrow I see the main problem as speed. The security is easy enough to overcome through the use of IPSec, which would itself make an interesting project :) > it will be faster, but whether or not it will cater to impractical geeks But "wired" connects will be faster still. 10GBit ethernet is just around the corner. > remains to be seen. Besides, it's fun to hack around with this stuff. Definitely. > Another reason I want to do this however is because it is an old > house... I'm going to be doing some electrical & plumbing upgrades, and > afterwards, I'm going to be using some blow-in insulation for energy > efficiency and soundproofing... which will make future wire > installations an order of magnitude more difficult. Ok, maybe you already have the skills to do the job professionally yourself :) Rob -- Robert Brockway B.Sc. email: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org, zzbrock at uqconnect.net Linux counter project ID #16440 (http://counter.li.org) "The earth is but one country and mankind its citizens" -Baha'u'llah -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From hughreilly1-PkbjNfxxIARBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 20 02:10:24 2003 From: hughreilly1-PkbjNfxxIARBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Hugh Reilly) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 21:10:24 -0500 Subject: Waaaay offtopic Message-ID: >From: James Knott >Reply-To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org >To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org >Subject: Re: [TLUG]: Waaaay offtopic >Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 18:13:01 -0500 >One person I'd never believe is a naturopathic "doctor". Naturopathy is >based on a bogus belief that a tiny amount of something that causes the >same symptoms as a disease will cure or prevent it. The problem is, that >the doses generally prescribed are physically impossible. For example a >common dilution of the "medicine" is 10X or divided with water or alcohol >10:1, 10 times. The problem with this amount of dilution, is that the >number of molecules gets in the way. In order to consume one molecule of >the substance, you'd have to drink several thousand gallons of water. They >also have another dilution of 100C, which is 100:1 100 times, which is even >more impossible. You're mistaking naturopathy for homeopathy. Plus, your world-view is getting in the way. The truth is, there are "mysteries" which science as-we-know-it cannot explain. The fact that science ("official" science, anyway) cannot explain homeopathy has no influence whatsoever on the thousands of people worldwide who benefit from its practice. Science is not yet finished explaining the world to us; it's evolving, and so are we. Keeping an open mind is good survival instinct. Anybody interested in a new and "unproven" effective treatment for bacterial and viral disease? -Hugh _______________________________________________ Hugh Reilly XEN Technology Group | LinuxLab 600 Bay Street, Suite 405 Toronto ON M5R 1G6 tel: 416-204-9951 fax: 416-204-9723 email: info-2K4XOyu7qTosA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org _______________________________________________ http://www.xen.ca | http://www.linuxlab.ca _________________________________________________________________ It??s our best dial-up Internet access offer: 6 months @$9.95/month. Get it now! http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/dialup -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 20 02:35:31 2003 From: fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Fraser Campbell) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 21:35:31 -0500 Subject: Cogeco.ca blocking incoming port 25 smtp In-Reply-To: <20031220003257.GA372-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <3fe309eb.bb.4e6e.30124@cogeco.ca> <20031220003257.GA372@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <200312192135.31327.fraser@wehave.net> On December 19, 2003 07:32 pm, William Park wrote: > They blocked dynamic IP when I tried to send to . So, I > relayed through my ISP. Since I haven't received any reject message, I > assume it's in queue somewhere. > > Hmm, > $ telnet cogeco.ca 25 > 554 5.7.1 zues2.cgocable.net Connection not authorized Why are you trying to talk smtp with cogeco.ca, that host isn't listed as a mail exchanger for them? > $ host -t mx cogeco.ca > cogeco.ca mail is handled by 0 MX.cogeco.ca. > > Someone goofed. Tell them to fix typo in their DNS zonefile. Why do you think that someone goofed? It's not clear to me that anything is wrong; their mx (as you pointed out) is mx.cogeco.ca, and it's reachable ... $ telnet mx.cogeco.ca 25 Trying 216.221.81.26... Connected to mx.cogeco.ca. Escape character is '^]'. 220 fep5.cogeco.net ESMTP Cogeco Cablesystems -- Fraser Campbell http://www.wehave.net/ Georgetown, Ontario, Canada Debian GNU/Linux -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From hughreilly1-PkbjNfxxIARBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 20 02:37:28 2003 From: hughreilly1-PkbjNfxxIARBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Hugh Reilly) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 21:37:28 -0500 Subject: Waaaay offtopic Message-ID: >From: William Park >Reply-To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org >To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org >Subject: Re: [TLUG]: Waaaay offtopic >Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 20:11:32 -0500 >Of course, people runs company to make money. Vaccine company makes and >sells vaccine. Milk company sells milk, and will say it's good for you. >Even though the only people who are losing bone calcium are those who >drink milk like water, they will defend their livelihood. Did you >expect something else, Hugh? Yes, William, I expect more. But I have to admit that when people are afraid for their livelihoods, they do tend to act against the "greater good" if it will help their own individual circumstances. That's why I think it's so important to make sure our systems and institutions are designed to harness human nature to increase the "greater good". BTW, I tried emailing you earlier today, but got an undeliverable thingy back from your address. -Hugh _______________________________________________ Hugh Reilly XEN Technology Group | LinuxLab 600 Bay Street, Suite 405 Toronto ON M5R 1G6 tel: 416-204-9951 fax: 416-204-9723 email: info-2K4XOyu7qTosA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org _______________________________________________ http://www.xen.ca | http://www.linuxlab.ca _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus&pgmarket=en-ca&RU=http%3a%2f%2fjoin.msn.com%2f%3fpage%3dmisc%2fspecialoffers%26pgmarket%3den-ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 20 02:54:58 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 21:54:58 -0500 Subject: Waaaay offtopic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20031219215458.041e7943.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Fri, 19 Dec 2003 21:37:28 -0500 "Hugh Reilly" wrote: > Yes, William, I expect more. But I have to admit that when people are afraid > for their livelihoods, they do tend to act against the "greater good" if it > will help their own individual circumstances. That's why I think it's so > important to make sure our systems and institutions are designed to harness > human nature to increase the "greater good". Hugh, please, it's getting painful. I mean seriously: "Even though the only people who are losing bone calcium are those who drink milk like water, they will defend their livelihood." Does that make *any* sense whatsoever to you? Do you really think the mind that came up with that sentence is ever going to see your point of view? Anyway, it's your call, but my guess is we're a coupla cans short of a sixpack with this one :-P -- JoeHill ++ ICQ # 280779813 Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "You tell me it's the institution; Well you know, you better free your mind instead..."-- John Lennon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 20 03:01:07 2003 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 22:01:07 -0500 Subject: Cogeco.ca blocking incoming port 25 smtp In-Reply-To: <200312192135.31327.fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org> References: <3fe309eb.bb.4e6e.30124@cogeco.ca> <20031220003257.GA372@node1.opengeometry.net> <200312192135.31327.fraser@wehave.net> Message-ID: <20031220030107.GA823@node1.opengeometry.net> On Fri, Dec 19, 2003 at 09:35:31PM -0500, Fraser Campbell wrote: > Why do you think that someone goofed? It's not clear to me that anything is > wrong; their mx (as you pointed out) is mx.cogeco.ca, and it's reachable ... I stand corrected. I got distracted by thinking politically incorrect ways... :-) -- William Park, Open Geometry Consulting, Linux solution for data management and processing. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 20 03:07:50 2003 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 22:07:50 -0500 Subject: Waaaay offtopic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20031220030750.GB823@node1.opengeometry.net> > BTW, I tried emailing you earlier today, but got an undeliverable > thingy back from your address. Try now. I'm totally overloaded with spams. Yahoo's 6MB limit gets used up in 2 hours. My other accounts are not as bad, about 1MB/hour. -- William Park, Open Geometry Consulting, Linux solution for data management and processing. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 20 03:31:33 2003 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 22:31:33 -0500 Subject: Waaaay offtopic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3FE3C295.9000402@rogers.com> Hugh Reilly wrote: >> From: James Knott >> Reply-To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org >> To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org >> Subject: Re: [TLUG]: Waaaay offtopic >> Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 18:23:29 -0500 >> >> Hugh Reilly wrote: >> >>> Has anyone out there heard of the "zapper", invented by Saskatchewan >>> naturopathic doctor and celll biologist Hulda Clark? She claims that >>> disease-causing bacteria and viruses in the body can be killed by >>> low-level radio frequencies. The zapper delivers that frequency to >>> the body, and has been claimed by some to actually cure AIDS. >> >> >> If that's all it takes, we're all going to be fine. We're constantly >> bathed in RF from many sources. The above claim, indicates she's a >> fraud. > > > No it doesn't. The science behind it is, of course, more complex than > you could have known from my post. What I find interesting is that that > didn't stop you from jumping to conclusions. Real medicine requires trials to show effectiveness and risks of a medicine or treatment. By examining the results of a study with several participants, the effects can be analyzed. Taking a single case will not prove much, as you cannot say whether what you did or if the results could be attributed to something else. > >>> I have been experimenting myself with the device, having built >>> several over the past couple of years. And I have to say, with very >>> positive results. And I am NOT getting a flu shot! >> >> >> How do you know you've had positive results? Did you run a full >> study, with several participant, including a control group? If not, >> all you've got is a delusion. I could claim that eating pizza & beer >> prevents disease. After all, I've had lots of both and rarely get >> sick (only one sick day in 21 years, with one employer). > > > I don't need to employ the scientific method to prove something to > myself. Neither do you, unless you don't trust yourself. If pizza and > beer works for you, who am I to argue? Well, what's that saying about he who refuses to see? If you don't have a carefully controlled study, what have you got? So you didn't get the flu. Would you have gotten it if you hadn't zapped yourself? There's absolutely no way to tell. Now if you get 2 large groups of people, one experiment, one control, you can then compare how the 2 groups responded. If there's no significant difference, your treament had no effect. If one group is measurably better (or worse), then you have some idea as to the effectiveness of your treatment. Anything else is at best a delusion or worst a deadly fraud. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 20 03:34:03 2003 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 22:34:03 -0500 Subject: When will the persecution of MS *end*?! In-Reply-To: <20031220015307.GA588-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20031219041045.GA265@node1.opengeometry.net> <20031219042437.FTYH317816.fep04-mail.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com@pittlandctr8at> <20031219044923.GA441@node1.opengeometry.net> <3FE2E69B.2070804@rogers.com> <20031220015307.GA588@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <3FE3C32B.2000307@rogers.com> William Park wrote: > On Fri, Dec 19, 2003 at 06:52:59AM -0500, James Knott wrote: > >>>RealNetwork is like after-market car radio company that is suing GM >>>because GM has the arrogance to put radio in all GM cars, thereby >>>shutting out after-market radio companies. >> >>Actually, that matter did go to court and the auto makers lost. > > > What do you mean they lost? You mean GM can't sell red cars, because > that will shutout after-market companies selling red paints? > It means they couldn't force a customer to take a radio they didn't want. The result was that if you planned to get an aftermarket radio, you didn't have to pay for one "bundled" with the car. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 20 03:40:29 2003 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 22:40:29 -0500 Subject: Waaaay offtopic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3FE3C4AD.5010108@rogers.com> Hugh Reilly wrote: >> From: James Knott >> Reply-To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org >> To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org >> Subject: Re: [TLUG]: Waaaay offtopic >> Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 18:13:01 -0500 > > >> One person I'd never believe is a naturopathic "doctor". Naturopathy >> is based on a bogus belief that a tiny amount of something that causes >> the same symptoms as a disease will cure or prevent it. The problem >> is, that the doses generally prescribed are physically impossible. >> For example a common dilution of the "medicine" is 10X or divided with >> water or alcohol 10:1, 10 times. The problem with this amount of >> dilution, is that the number of molecules gets in the way. In order >> to consume one molecule of the substance, you'd have to drink several >> thousand gallons of water. They also have another dilution of 100C, >> which is 100:1 100 times, which is even more impossible. > > > You're mistaking naturopathy for homeopathy. Quite so. My mistake. Plus, your world-view is > getting in the way. The truth is, there are "mysteries" which science > as-we-know-it cannot explain. The fact that science ("official" science, > anyway) cannot explain homeopathy has no influence whatsoever on the > thousands of people worldwide who benefit from its practice. Science is > not yet finished explaining the world to us; it's evolving, and so are > we. Keeping an open mind is good survival instinct. Bottom line, is much of that so called "medicine" cannot show any benefit in comparitive tests. As for not knowing all about the world, the only way to change that is to study. If someone has an idea, they should try to show some supporting evidence. I don't know if you recall something called "Essiac". It was supposed to be a cancer cure, developed by a woman, who lived up near Huntsville. She appeared almost 30 years ago, with her claims. She wanted the provincial government to pay her a large amount of money for her cure, before she'd allow any tests or provide any info on it. She had nothing to show it was effective, other than her own claims. The government turned her down, but a private company paid her. Last I heard they were suing her for fraud. With a scientific approach, a claim and any supporting data is examined by others. Sometimes this process fails, but overall, it results in the advancement of knowledge. If someone has a claim, the onus is on them to prove their claims, not on someone else to prove them wrong. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 20 03:42:09 2003 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 22:42:09 -0500 Subject: Waaaay offtopic In-Reply-To: <20031220030750.GB823-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20031220030750.GB823@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <3FE3C511.3000808@rogers.com> William Park wrote: >>BTW, I tried emailing you earlier today, but got an undeliverable >>thingy back from your address. > > > Try now. I'm totally overloaded with spams. Yahoo's 6MB limit gets > used up in 2 hours. My other accounts are not as bad, about 1MB/hour. > Maybe you should try that Zapper, to cure the spam! ;-) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From hughreilly1-PkbjNfxxIARBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 20 03:51:09 2003 From: hughreilly1-PkbjNfxxIARBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Hugh Reilly) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 22:51:09 -0500 Subject: Waaaay offtopic Message-ID: >JoeHill ++ ICQ # 280779813 >Registered Linux user #282046 >Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org > > Yes, William, I expect more. But I have to admit that when people are >afraid > > for their livelihoods, they do tend to act against the "greater good" if >it > > will help their own individual circumstances. That's why I think it's so > > important to make sure our systems and institutions are designed to >harness > > human nature to increase the "greater good". > >Hugh, please, it's getting painful. I mean seriously: > >"Even though the only people who are losing bone calcium are those who >drink milk like water, they will defend their livelihood." > >Does that make *any* sense whatsoever to you? Do you really think the mind >that >came up with that sentence is ever going to see your point of view? Joe, I gotta say that I know William personally, and I will vouch for him 100%. Friends don't always have to agree with one another. The fact that William chooses a Linux Users Group as his medium for defending Bill Gates may seem a little unusual, but I think it's borne more from a sense of frustration about developing viable models for successful business in the Linux realm. I think we'd all like to see Linux as successful as Microsoft has been. And I think we will. -Hugh _______________________________________________ Hugh Reilly XEN Technology Group | LinuxLab 600 Bay Street, Suite 405 Toronto ON M5R 1G6 tel: 416-204-9951 fax: 416-204-9723 email: info-2K4XOyu7qTosA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org _______________________________________________ http://www.xen.ca | http://www.linuxlab.ca >From: JoeHill >Reply-To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org >To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org >Subject: Re: [TLUG]: Waaaay offtopic >Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 21:54:58 -0500 > >On Fri, 19 Dec 2003 21:37:28 -0500 >"Hugh Reilly" wrote: > > > Yes, William, I expect more. But I have to admit that when people are >afraid > > for their livelihoods, they do tend to act against the "greater good" if >it > > will help their own individual circumstances. That's why I think it's so > > important to make sure our systems and institutions are designed to >harness > > human nature to increase the "greater good". > >Hugh, please, it's getting painful. I mean seriously: > >"Even though the only people who are losing bone calcium are those who >drink milk like water, they will defend their livelihood." > >Does that make *any* sense whatsoever to you? Do you really think the mind >that >came up with that sentence is ever going to see your point of view? > >Anyway, it's your call, but my guess is we're a coupla cans short of a >sixpack >with this one :-P > >-- >JoeHill ++ ICQ # 280779813 >Registered Linux user #282046 >Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org >+++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >"You tell me it's the institution; Well you know, you better free your mind >instead..."-- John Lennon >-- >The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org >TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus&pgmarket=en-ca&RU=http%3a%2f%2fjoin.msn.com%2f%3fpage%3dmisc%2fspecialoffers%26pgmarket%3den-ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 20 03:53:43 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 22:53:43 -0500 Subject: Waaaay offtopic In-Reply-To: <3FE3C4AD.5010108-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <3FE3C4AD.5010108@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20031219225343.2204677d.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Fri, 19 Dec 2003 22:40:29 -0500 James Knott wrote: > If someone has a claim, the onus is on them to prove their claims, not on > someone else to prove them wrong. ...actually, IIRC it isn't even logically possible to prove a negative. Been awhile since Formal Logic 101 for me, and many many, er, "memory-loss inducers". -- JoeHill ++ ICQ # 280779813 Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "And so if people are violating the law by doing drugs, they ought to be accused and they ought to be convicted and they ought to be sent up."-- Rush Limbaugh, drug abuser -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 20 04:07:39 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 23:07:39 -0500 Subject: Waaaay offtopic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20031219230739.24bcf6d1.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Fri, 19 Dec 2003 22:51:09 -0500 "Hugh Reilly" wrote: > Joe, I gotta say that I know William personally, and I will vouch for him > 100%. Friends don't always have to agree with one another. The fact that > William chooses a Linux Users Group as his medium for defending Bill Gates > may seem a little unusual, but I think it's borne more from a sense of > frustration about developing viable models for successful business in the > Linux realm. > > I think we'd all like to see Linux as successful as Microsoft has been. And > I think we will. Well, knock yourself out then ;-) Unfortunately for Will, the majority of the Linux community are what he would consider "commies", you know, people who believe in evil things like sharing and collaborating. Must be very frustrating. He's still *plonked*. -- JoeHill ++ ICQ # 280779813 Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "If the Americans go in and overthrow Saddam Hussein and it's clean, he has nothing, I will apologize to the nation, and I will not trust the Bush Administration again, all right?"-- Bill O'Reilly, March 18, 2003 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From legrady-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 20 04:21:21 2003 From: legrady-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Tom Legrady) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 23:21:21 -0500 Subject: Waaaay offtopic In-Reply-To: <20031219225343.2204677d.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FE3C4AD.5010108@rogers.com> <20031219225343.2204677d.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <3FE3CE41.5060708@rogers.com> Actually, the reverse is the basis of science, ironically. You can't prove Newton's Theory of Gravity, but given Einstein's Theory of Relativity, you can disprove Newton's theory .... or, more precisely, you can prove that Newton's theory is a reasonably approximation, but only until you consider certain situations. And Einstein's theories are disproven by the the Uncertainty Principle, and by String Theory .... which are refinements of Einstein. But it's impossible ( so far ) to prove any of these. Maybe String Theory will be proven, and then we'll know everything. What does this have to do with Perl, kernels, or memory mapping? JoeHill wrote: >On Fri, 19 Dec 2003 22:40:29 -0500 >James Knott wrote: > > > >> If someone has a claim, the onus is on them to prove their claims, not on >> someone else to prove them wrong. >> >> > >...actually, IIRC it isn't even logically possible to prove a negative. Been >awhile since Formal Logic 101 for me, and many many, er, "memory-loss inducers". > > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From denisc-MAEtQwdlj00 at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 20 01:47:11 2003 From: denisc-MAEtQwdlj00 at public.gmane.org (Denis Casserly) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 20:47:11 -0500 Subject: Wiring for data in houses In-Reply-To: References: <3FE37F8A.20504@idirect.com> Message-ID: <200312192047.11867.denisc@aebc.com> Hi all, I've often thought about wiring in houses and I think it makes more sense to have a wiring 'chase' or a route worked out in a house ahead of time. I worked as an electrical contractor in Toronto for a long time and one nagging question in any sort of residential or commercial construction was always "has everything been planned for". I think a more reasonable approach to wiring consideration in buildings would be to accept that even if you are able to correctly spec and install the required wiring services, it's only good for today. What about tomorrow? My approach to wiring is to make allowance for these changes. In addition to trying to provide for all the wiring systems, design the construction to allow for easy future wiring expansion by building in chases or wireways that will allow additional cables and conductors to be pulled or fished in at a later date as they're required. If you had wiring access to every room in the house the problem might be solved. This probably isn't the most economical solution but it could be simple and effective. For example if you need to go from room to room in a house you could use the clothes closets to locate the opening for a small chase say 4 by 4 inches located anywhere on the inside wall of the closet where it will never be seem. This chase could go to a common area like the basement, or to another closet in another room. If it was already fished with a piece of jet line string you only have to tie on and have an accomplice pull the other end. Don't forget to pull in a new string with the new cable you're installing. This approach might work with power wiring also, check the National Electrical Code book, it does make an allowance for fishing in cable in section 12. If you're worried about fire transmission cover the hole with a large piece of 5/8" drywall. Just my two cents. Cheers, Denis Casserly -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From taavi-LbuTpDkqzNzXI80/IeQp7B2eb7JE58TQ at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 20 04:56:06 2003 From: taavi-LbuTpDkqzNzXI80/IeQp7B2eb7JE58TQ at public.gmane.org (Taavi Burns) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 21:56:06 -0700 Subject: C programming question In-Reply-To: <200312191808.04306.skuznets-WRMZ5ucGVl4BXFe83j6qeQ@public.gmane.org> References: <200312191714.00989.skuznets@blueprint.org> <200312191728.14694.wildberger@cogeco.ca> <200312191808.04306.skuznets@blueprint.org> Message-ID: <20031220045606.GA76466@idiom.novusordo.net> On Fri, Dec 19, 2003 at 06:08:04PM -0500, Sergey Kuznetsov wrote: > In this case you can't reach the physical memory. Intel processors ( and > other CPU as well ) protects the access to the real physical memory. > Only kernel have access to it. > You can do it only thru the kernel space as a driver module, or thru the > /proc/kcore, but this is file in format of core file, you should know how to > handle and read it. "Physical memory" is an interesting topic when talking about CPUs with MMUs (memory management units). x86 CPUs since the 286 iirc have MMUs. To read the actual first few hundred bytes of physical, you will probably want to go through DOS, or write your own bootable program and eschew with an OS entirely. The Linux kernel does have the ability to map bits of real physical memory into the standard protected mode address space, though. I just don't know how to do it. Much simpler from DOS. ;) Note that doing something like: char *memory = 0x0202; will let you access memory at address 0x0202, relative to the program as it runs. In DOS, this is actually the 0x0202 byte in real, physical memory(*). In Linux, it'll be whatever's in 0x00000202 as seen by that process. Even in the kernel, it'll be 0x00000202 as seen by the kernel. The MMU can dynamically map physical and logical memory addresses by making use of a TLB (translation lookaside buffer). Because the kernel has to deal with physical devices which are memory mapped, however, it is possible using existing interfaces. You'd want to explore some of the driver and "real mode" memory interfaces, I think. No, it's never as simple as you thought. ;) (*) Of course, you'd want to be sure that you were accessing offset 0x0202 from segment 0x0000. DOS and all other intel real-mode applications have the concept of a "near" and a "far" pointer, the former being 16-bit, and the latter being 24-bit (the middle 8 bits of segment and offset overlap). See, it's NEVER as simple as you thought. ;) -- taa Hackers (the movie) n. A notable bomb from 1995. Should have been titled "Crackers", because cracking is what the movie was about. It's understandable that they didn't however; titles redolent of snack food are probably a tough sell in Hollywood. --From the Jargon File 4.1.2 --http://www.sunsite.ualberta.ca/jargon/ /*eof*/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jingsu-26n5VD7DAF2Tm46uYYfjYg at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 20 05:18:31 2003 From: jingsu-26n5VD7DAF2Tm46uYYfjYg at public.gmane.org (Jing Su) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 00:18:31 -0500 Subject: C programming question In-Reply-To: <20031220045606.GA76466-7r3UYZMxfuqyvPIx3LBjwNHuzzzSOjJt@public.gmane.org> References: <200312191714.00989.skuznets@blueprint.org> <200312191728.14694.wildberger@cogeco.ca> <200312191808.04306.skuznets@blueprint.org> <20031220045606.GA76466@idiom.novusordo.net> Message-ID: For the purposes of just seeing what the kernel does, even in protected mode, with regards to both virtual and physical memory, an easier method may be to run it in an emulator instead of trying to examine the running operating system. Try something like bochs. http://bochs.sourceforge.net/ A colleague of mine uses Bochs for simulating Linux on an x86 for his runtime trace optimization research. Apparently Bochs is a really well constructed and designed piece of work; expecially nice if it becomes necessary to dig under Bochs itself to see what it's doing in terms of emulation. -Jing -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jzygmont-tEQKYFGiemxAYG7eUwYNkWD2FQJk+8+b at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 20 06:15:42 2003 From: jzygmont-tEQKYFGiemxAYG7eUwYNkWD2FQJk+8+b at public.gmane.org (Justin Zygmont) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 01:15:42 -0500 (EST) Subject: VPN question Message-ID: Just a thought about VPN's and a hope to get back on topic to fun linux things, I was wondering if anyone knows why an encrypted VPN is so important using a phone line when it's usually just a point to point link with no chance of interception? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 20 06:44:55 2003 From: henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org (Henry Spencer) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 01:44:55 -0500 (EST) Subject: VPN question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 20 Dec 2003, Justin Zygmont wrote: > Just a thought about VPN's and a hope to get back on topic to fun linux > things, I was wondering if anyone knows why an encrypted VPN is so > important using a phone line when it's usually just a point to point link > with no chance of interception? "No chance of interception" is, unfortunately, putting it much too strongly. For one thing, it's a point-to-point link only if the phone company chooses to do it that way. They can easily cut a third party in on the link. They are known to do this for voice conversations, for quality monitoring and for emergency break-in (if it's a major emergency and you've just got to contact Fred and his phone line is constantly busy, an operator can break in on his conversation and tell him he's got an emergency call, if you can convince him/her that it's important enough). They probably don't for modem conversations, but it is possible. They certainly can do it for law-enforcement wiretaps of either. Moreover, with modern electronics it is trivial to tap a phone line undetectably (except for discovery of the tap by physical inspection). It doesn't have to be the police or the Feds doing it. It doesn't necessarily require access to your premises. Henry Spencer henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 20 10:33:46 2003 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter L. Peres) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 12:33:46 +0200 (IST) Subject: Waaaay offtopic In-Reply-To: <200312182034.37527.mr6re9-mI4xJ4qlgtBiLUuM0BA3LQ@public.gmane.org> References: <200312182034.37527.mr6re9@execulink.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Dec 2003, GDHough wrote: > Now where can I get that flu shot I heard about for my Windows PC? At a gunshop near you. Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 20 10:50:16 2003 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter L. Peres) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 12:50:16 +0200 (IST) Subject: When will the persecution of MS *end*?! In-Reply-To: <20031219041045.GA265-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20031218202223.397ba155.joehill@sympatico.ca> <20031219041045.GA265@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: > Cry babies... RealNetworks lost out in competition. What competition ? Oh, you mean when M$ bundled mediaplayer for free with the os just like it did with the explorer and integrated it as much as possible ? I guess someone should correct the dictionary definition of 'competition' now that it's common usage sense has changed so much ... Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 20 10:56:34 2003 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter L. Peres) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 12:56:34 +0200 (IST) Subject: When will the persecution of MS *end*?! In-Reply-To: <20031219044923.GA441-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20031219041045.GA265@node1.opengeometry.net> <20031219042437.FTYH317816.fep04-mail.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com@pittlandctr8at> <20031219044923.GA441@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: > RealNetwork is like after-market car radio company that is suing GM > because GM has the arrogance to put radio in all GM cars, thereby > shutting out after-market radio companies. You mean, if someone invents something and someone else grabs the idea and uses it with slight changes, just enough to avoid a patent suit, and makes millions out of it by leveraging its monopoly position, it's ok, right ? If M$ had invented the idea they could have monopolized it until forever and nobody would have minded. But they did not. Notice that no-one is suing them over the Word .doc format or .xls or anything like that. Wonder why ? Because it's theirs. Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 20 11:32:10 2003 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter L. Peres) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 13:32:10 +0200 (IST) Subject: C programming question In-Reply-To: <33678E78A2DD4D418396703A750048D4BD1E52-zjka4IdDAzw@public.gmane.org> References: <33678E78A2DD4D418396703A750048D4BD1E52@RIKER> Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Dec 2003, Jim Skehill wrote: > If you are programming in C you can go down to the assembler level and issue > a BIOS interrupt (sorry I don't recall the number) to write to a particular > disk location. > DOS interrupt 25H allows you to write to a particular disk sector, but > seeing that this is the TLUG Mailing list, I don't imagine that's of much > help to you. Except you can't do that in linux since the bios is not functioning while in linux. There are equivalent functions in the kernel, not available from user space. In theory you can acheieve the same effect by using the raw device (e.g. /dev/hda) and use (f)seek & co. to acceess a physical sector (which you get to compute using the disk geometry). You have to be root to do this and the potential for problems is enormous. Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 20 11:52:26 2003 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter L. Peres) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 13:52:26 +0200 (IST) Subject: When will the persecution of MS *end*?! In-Reply-To: <20031220013414.GA500-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20031218202223.397ba155.joehill@sympatico.ca> <20031219041045.GA265@node1.opengeometry.net> <20031218234245.0901828a.joehill@sympatico.ca> <20031219050700.GB441@node1.opengeometry.net> <20031219001438.0e209021.joehill@sympatico.ca> <20031219055319.GA543@node1.opengeometry.net> <20031219052924.415aa9c9.joehill@sympatico.ca> <20031220013414.GA500@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Dec 2003, William Park wrote: > On Fri, Dec 19, 2003 at 05:29:24AM -0500, JoeHill wrote: > > > - inability to generate revenue from actual sales. > > > > ...because some company convicted of being an illegal monopoly is > > pulling the rug out from under you. > > This is the case of loser blaming the winner for winning. Real was > trying to win over Microsoft, no? The idea that there need not be winners and looser but that the competition itself is the goal seems to elude you. If the final goal is for all major market share holding companies to win out over all their competitors then there will be 5 kolchozes producing all consumer goods you will ever need, decide what is best for you, and not care a s**t what you really want or need. This has been done before on a grand scale in countries formerly known as 'communist'. Of course you don't want that ? Also it would completely obliterate what is known today as the stock market (which mostly makes its living out of handling bets on who is going to be 1% stronger (or weaker) that someone else now or within a certain given timeframe). Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 20 12:05:55 2003 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 07:05:55 -0500 Subject: Waaaay offtopic In-Reply-To: <3FE3CE41.5060708-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <3FE3C4AD.5010108@rogers.com> <20031219225343.2204677d.joehill@sympatico.ca> <3FE3CE41.5060708@rogers.com> Message-ID: <3FE43B23.6000201@rogers.com> In all those cases, someone made observations that better explained the world & universe around us. Then the next person refined those ideas etc. In each case, the model was improved, bringing us closer to the facts. They may never be proven, but this method is a lot better than someone proclaiming the world to be the center of the universe. Science, including medicine works by constantly trying to improve knowledge. Tom Legrady wrote: > Actually, the reverse is the basis of science, ironically. > > You can't prove Newton's Theory of Gravity, but given Einstein's Theory > of Relativity, you can disprove Newton's theory .... or, more precisely, > you can prove that Newton's theory is a reasonably approximation, but > only until you consider certain situations. And Einstein's theories are > disproven by the the Uncertainty Principle, and by String Theory .... > which are refinements of Einstein. But it's impossible ( so far ) to > prove any of these. Maybe String Theory will be proven, and then we'll > know everything. > > What does this have to do with Perl, kernels, or memory mapping? > > JoeHill wrote: > >> On Fri, 19 Dec 2003 22:40:29 -0500 >> James Knott wrote: >> >> >> >>> If someone has a claim, the onus is on them to prove their claims, >>> not on >>> someone else to prove them wrong. >>> >> >> >> ...actually, IIRC it isn't even logically possible to prove a >> negative. Been >> awhile since Formal Logic 101 for me, and many many, er, "memory-loss >> inducers". >> >> >> > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 20 12:09:00 2003 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 07:09:00 -0500 Subject: VPN question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3FE43BDC.9050803@rogers.com> Justin Zygmont wrote: > Just a thought about VPN's and a hope to get back on topic to fun linux > things, I was wondering if anyone knows why an encrypted VPN is so > important using a phone line when it's usually just a point to point link > with no chance of interception? Why do you think a phone line has no chance of interception? Phone lines have been tapped for years. It is very easy to do, if you know how. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 20 12:47:30 2003 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 07:47:30 -0500 Subject: When will the persecution of MS *end*?! In-Reply-To: References: <20031219041045.GA265@node1.opengeometry.net> <20031219042437.FTYH317816.fep04-mail.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com@pittlandctr8at> <20031219044923.GA441@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <3FE444E2.6030101@rogers.com> Peter L. Peres wrote: >>RealNetwork is like after-market car radio company that is suing GM >>because GM has the arrogance to put radio in all GM cars, thereby >>shutting out after-market radio companies. > > > You mean, if someone invents something and someone else grabs the idea and > uses it with slight changes, just enough to avoid a patent suit, and makes > millions out of it by leveraging its monopoly position, it's ok, right ? Anyone remember Stacker? It's a perfect example of the above. They developed disk compression software. MS stole the technology and included it in Windows. Stacker won in court, but by then the damage had been done. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 20 13:05:57 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 08:05:57 -0500 Subject: Waaaay offtopic In-Reply-To: <3FE3CE41.5060708-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <3FE3C4AD.5010108@rogers.com> <20031219225343.2204677d.joehill@sympatico.ca> <3FE3CE41.5060708@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20031220080557.75ea4802.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Fri, 19 Dec 2003 23:21:21 -0500 Tom Legrady wrote: > What does this have to do with Perl, kernels, or memory mapping? ...or the price of Tea in China? I have no freakin' idea. Like I said before, all I wanted to do was give my best wishes to any fellow flu sufferers, and *they all went completely nuts*! Somebody get a Taser. -- JoeHill ++ ICQ # 280779813 Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness."-- John Kenneth Galbraith -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 20 13:11:08 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 08:11:08 -0500 Subject: Waaaay offtopic In-Reply-To: References: <200312182034.37527.mr6re9@execulink.com> Message-ID: <20031220081108.68836d87.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Sat, 20 Dec 2003 12:33:46 +0200 (IST) "Peter L. Peres" wrote: > > Now where can I get that flu shot I heard about for my Windows PC? > > At a gunshop near you. Well, I'm getting better. I know not to be drinking anything when I read certain people's posts. That would have had a spew factor of 10, *definitely* a shorted monitor. -- JoeHill ++ ICQ # 280779813 Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "One of the most dangerous errors of our time is the belief that human beings are uniquely violent animals, barely restrained from committing atrocities on each other by the constraints of ethics, religion, and the state."-- Eric S. Raymond -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From pking123-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 20 14:45:59 2003 From: pking123-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (Paul King) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 09:45:59 -0500 Subject: Waaaay offtopic In-Reply-To: <3FE3C4AD.5010108-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: Message-ID: <3FE41A57.10804.1C795E33@localhost> Date sent: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 22:40:29 -0500 From: James Knott To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Subject: Re: [TLUG]: Waaaay offtopic Send reply to: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > Bottom line, is much of that so called "medicine" cannot show any > benefit in comparitive tests. I am not sure what side you are taking, but first, I would like you to give me a "for instance" here. If an "alternative" medicine which people "say" works (anecdotal evidence, which isn't worth much, but may provide basis for study), is proven to be of benefit then it is no longer "alternative". To prove that something is of benefit, you need placebo trials. I would imagine (without really providing proof) that there are likely many medicines that have crossed this line. There are substances which sell really well for which there is no scientific evidence of benefit. Take lecithin, for example. Lecithin is found in all our cells, is a terrific emusifier for cell membranes, which results in allowing substances to pass into and out of our cells more easily. But there is one problem. Lecithin, when ingested, is broken down into smaller molecules in your intestine before it absorbs into your blood. So the only lecithin we have in our cells must be what our body makes. But it still sells in health food shops, and it still has strong adherents. Placebo trials have been done, but evidence remains strictly anecdotal. Then there are accepted substances which benefit us, but benefits have been exaggerated. Omega-3 fatty acids (which I did a paper on for my biochemistry major) reverse atherosclerosis (hardening of the arteries). You read that right: it reverses it. That has been proven in numerous studies and clinical placebo trials. It also increases membrane fluidity, and it doesn't get broken down in the gut. If you go to health food stores, you may hear about numerous other benefits which have marginal proof, passed on as fact: It purportedly has a beneficial effect on asthma, psoriasis, cancer, arthritis, and [place your favourite autoimmune disorder here]. There is a movement under way to get Omega- 3 fatty acids (particularly EHA (eicosahexaenoic acid) and DPA(docosahexaenoic acid)) accepted as vitamins. If accomplished, this will no longer be an "alternative" medicine. I can't see the scientific method ever failing, except for political reasons. AIDS research is a strong example. Researchers are hung up on retrviruses as the main mechanism, and other avenues of study into alternative causes have actually been silenced, last I have heard. You may speculate on the reasons, but they have not been honest reasons. This is when things stop being scientific. Or when drug companies tell a prof what they can and cannot publish or utter in a lecture. Things like that weaken the whole enterprise. But health food stores and herbalists don't even have this avenue of validity open to them. Health food stores and herbalists are in the business to make money. What they sell works because these users of the medicine say that it works. And you just have to believe it or not believe it, and buy their stuff, and that's how they make money. Maybe they're right, and maybe they're wrong. But I wouldn't travel down that road until other more established avenues have been used up first. > As for not knowing all about the world, > the only way to change that is to study. If someone has an idea, they > should try to show some supporting evidence. I don't know if you recall > something called "Essiac". It was supposed to be a cancer cure, > developed by a woman, who lived up near Huntsville. She appeared almost > 30 years ago, with her claims. She wanted the provincial government to > pay her a large amount of money for her cure, before she'd allow any > tests or provide any info on it. She had nothing to show it was > effective, other than her own claims. The government turned her down, > but a private company paid her. Last I heard they were suing her for fraud. > > With a scientific approach, a claim and any supporting data is examined > by others. Sometimes this process fails, but overall, it results in the > advancement of knowledge. If someone has a claim, the onus is on them > to prove their claims, not on someone else to prove them wrong. > ========================================================= Paul King http://www3.sympatico.ca/pking123/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 20 14:41:55 2003 From: cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org (cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 09:41:55 -0500 Subject: Waaaay offtopic In-Reply-To: Message from "Hugh Reilly" of "Fri, 19 Dec 2003 22:51:09 EST." References: Message-ID: <20031220144156.8411E401F@cbbrowne.com> > I think we'd all like to see Linux as successful as Microsoft has been. And > I think we will. If I saw the same kind of "success" happening with Linux, I would consider that an outright disaster, because the "success" of Microsoft has been extremely toxic. -- If this was helpful, rate me http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/advocacy.html Consciousness - that annoying time between naps. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 20 15:15:13 2003 From: davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (David J Patrick) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 10:15:13 -0500 Subject: anti-spam spam... In-Reply-To: <20031219054807.01c4913f.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <20031219054807.01c4913f.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <3FE46781.4060201@sympatico.ca> JoeHill wrote: >Oh this is rich, this one made it through and I'm glad it did. Maybe it's just >me but it had me nearly wetting myself: > >"Hi, > We have noticed your email inbox has been getting more junk email >lately, > geez, yer watching MY email inbox ? > You have been chosen to check out this new >windows compatiable software solution we have been working on that >clears out 99% of the spam email in your inbox." > > wow, CHOSEN, lucky ! >1. You *would* notice that, being a spammer, no? >2. Would the remaining 1% be...you? >3. I'd be much more confident in your product if your sales team knew how to >spell "compatible". >4. I could clear 100% of the spam in my mailbox if I had a list of known >spammers, a steady-cam-mounted minigun, and 8 million rounds of ammo. > > can I borrow your minigun ? I thought I saw another spammer .. sPAM! ssPAM ! beysian filtering was never this much fun ! -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 20 15:20:01 2003 From: davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (David J Patrick) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 10:20:01 -0500 Subject: Wiring for data in houses In-Reply-To: <200312192047.11867.denisc-MAEtQwdlj00@public.gmane.org> References: <3FE37F8A.20504@idirect.com> <200312192047.11867.denisc@aebc.com> Message-ID: <3FE468A1.20502@sympatico.ca> Denis Casserly wrote: >Hi all, >I've often thought about wiring in houses and I think it makes more sense to >have a wiring 'chase' or a route worked out in a house ahead of time. I >worked as an electrical contractor in Toronto for a long time and one nagging >question in any sort of residential or commercial construction was always >"has everything been planned for". > I think a more reasonable approach to wiring consideration in buildings would >be to accept that even if you are able to correctly spec and install the >required wiring services, it's only good for today. What about tomorrow? > My approach to wiring is to make allowance for these changes. In addition to >trying to provide for all the wiring systems, design the construction to >allow for easy future wiring expansion by building in chases or wireways that >will allow additional cables and conductors to be pulled or fished in at a >later date as they're required. If you had wiring access to every room in the >house the problem might be solved. This probably isn't the most economical >solution but it could be simple and effective. > For example if you need to go from room to room in a house you could use the >clothes closets to locate the opening for a small chase say 4 by 4 inches >located anywhere on the inside wall of the closet where it will never be >seem. This chase could go to a common area like the basement, or to another >closet in another room. If it was already fished with a piece of jet line >string you only have to tie on and have an accomplice pull the other end. >Don't forget to pull in a new string with the new cable you're installing. >This approach might work with power wiring also, check the National >Electrical Code book, it does make an allowance for fishing in cable in >section 12. If you're worried about fire transmission cover the hole with a >large piece of 5/8" drywall. Just my two cents. >Cheers, >Denis Casserly >-- >The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org >TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > > > I installed an aluminum trough that runs along the cieling from one end of my bungalow to the other. It's easy breezy to wire stuff up. It helps that there's no tricky second floor, to get to . -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 20 15:27:35 2003 From: davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (David J Patrick) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 10:27:35 -0500 Subject: When will the persecution of MS *end*?! In-Reply-To: <3FE444E2.6030101-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <20031219041045.GA265@node1.opengeometry.net> <20031219042437.FTYH317816.fep04-mail.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com@pittlandctr8at> <20031219044923.GA441@node1.opengeometry.net> <3FE444E2.6030101@rogers.com> Message-ID: <3FE46A67.20201@sympatico.ca> James Knott wrote: > Peter L. Peres wrote: > >>> RealNetwork is like after-market car radio company that is suing GM >>> because GM has the arrogance to put radio in all GM cars, thereby >>> shutting out after-market radio companies. >> >> >> >> You mean, if someone invents something and someone else grabs the >> idea and >> uses it with slight changes, just enough to avoid a patent suit, and >> makes >> millions out of it by leveraging its monopoly position, it's ok, right ? > > > Anyone remember Stacker? It's a perfect example of the above. They > developed disk compression software. MS stole the technology and > included it in Windows. Stacker won in court, but by then the damage > had been done. > > I used Stacker on my zip100 work disks. Now I have data trapped untill the day when I set up a Win3.1 box and install the Stacker4 disks I found at Goodwill. That day is a long way off, but I guard the floppies that constitute the shred of hope that someday I'll get those files back ! Long live open standards ! ps. I once use "MSBackup" only to find that the following version could not access the earlier versions backups. I will have no sympathy for the borg, as I watch their ship implode. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From billt-l+PWtdWbHAuXFJAUJl40Xg at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 20 15:31:17 2003 From: billt-l+PWtdWbHAuXFJAUJl40Xg at public.gmane.org (billt-l+PWtdWbHAuXFJAUJl40Xg at public.gmane.org) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 10:31:17 -0500 Subject: When will the persecution of MS *end*?! In-Reply-To: <20031219042437.FTYH317816.fep04-mail.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com-9xB6k4dNltmkzIdawFaobA@public.gmane.org>; from dgenn-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org on Thu, Dec 18, 2003 at 11:26:38PM -0500 References: <20031219041045.GA265@node1.opengeometry.net> <20031219042437.FTYH317816.fep04-mail.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com@pittlandctr8at> Message-ID: <20031220103117.A9866@diamond.ss.org> ATT won 28 anti-trust law suits, and lost only one. Standard Oil won 12 but lost only one. I think there is a pattern. Bill On Thu, Dec 18, 2003 at 11:26:38PM -0500, DanG wrote: > Somehow when a company owns 98% of the desktop OS market and leverages that > to distribute "free" software as a bundle with their OSes to take out > competition, I hardly call that a level playing field. Do you remember the > browser wars with Netscape and the numerous other companies who formed > technology partnerships and got swallowed up? I think these antitrust suits > looks good on Microsoft and it's monopoly practices. What they did to all > those competitors is either buy them out or bundle them out or hide > programming interfaces to competitors because they had the financial > resources and monopoly to do so. I hope Real and the numerous states that > are still filing anti-trust suits in the US get a good whack of cash. We all > know Bill has enough for everyone, if he can give SCO cash then I say > everyone hold your hands out. :-) > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org [mailto:owner-tlug at ss.org] On Behalf Of William Park > Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2003 11:11 PM > To: TLUG > Subject: Re: [TLUG]: When will the persecution of MS *end*?! > > On Thu, Dec 18, 2003 at 08:22:23PM -0500, JoeHill wrote: > > > > "Microsoft Corp. was hit Thursday with yet another antitrust lawsuit, > > this one accusing the software giant of illegally monopolizing the > > growing field of digital music and video. > > > > RealNetworks Inc. said Microsoft illegally tied its Windows Media > > Player software with copies of the ubiquitous Windows operating > > system, whether Windows users want Microsoft's player or not." > > > > Link: > > > > http://www.salon.com/tech/wire/2003/12/18/microsoft/index.html > > Cry babies... RealNetworks lost out in competition. > > -- > William Park, Open Geometry Consulting, Linux > solution for data management and processing. > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From legrady-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 20 15:38:50 2003 From: legrady-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Tom Legrady) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 10:38:50 -0500 Subject: anti-spam spam... In-Reply-To: <3FE46781.4060201-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <20031219054807.01c4913f.joehill@sympatico.ca> <3FE46781.4060201@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <3FE46D0A.8050606@rogers.com> I was astounded yesterday, to receive a "Nigerian" style email from India .... Those darned Indians ... first they take our shoe factory jobs, then they take our programming jobs, they've replaced our MDs, now they're moving in on nigerian swindlers. And you thought MS was a threat to world peace! David J Patrick wrote: > JoeHill wrote: > >> Oh this is rich, this one made it through and I'm glad it did. Maybe >> it's just >> me but it had me nearly wetting myself: > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From teddymills-VFlxZYho3OA at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 20 16:10:39 2003 From: teddymills-VFlxZYho3OA at public.gmane.org (Teddy Mills) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 11:10:39 -0500 Subject: Apache-MP3 and mod-perls References: <000701c3c606$0c0f0440$0301a8c0@amazon> Message-ID: <001f01c3c713$d0d37190$0301a8c0@amazon> Well, so far, getting Apache::MP3 to work with Apache 2, mod_perl2 is quite a task. Piles of CPAN modules, and then your told NOT to use CPAN modules for mod_perl2. So i figure I'll setup another Apache box with an older Apache 1.37 and then use it with mod_perl1 and Apache::MP3 will be happier with that. The only good thing about all this is now I have a working mod_perl (via mod_perl2) Wow, perl code runs awesome now. Really spiffys things up. I assume though, perl script security will still be a primary concern. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Teddy Mills" To: Sent: Friday, December 19, 2003 2:59 AM Subject: [TLUG]: Apache MP3s Web based players > I know of Sourceforge's RIMPS and NAMP. There maybe others Apache MP3 web > based players/servers. > I was wondering what experience TLUG users have with this. > And in your opinion what is the best Apache MP3 player/server, easiest to > configure and setup. caveats, security etc. > > I have Apache 2.048 and PHP 4.34, so the system is current. > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > teddy mills > http://www.vger.ca > VGER directives...To collect...all that is collectable. To sell...all that > is saleable.To merchandise...all that is merchandisable. > > Family Guys, Quagmire > "allllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll right" > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From doug.isherwood-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 20 17:05:08 2003 From: doug.isherwood-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org (Doug Isherwood) Date: 20 Dec 2003 12:05:08 -0500 Subject: Waaaay offtopic In-Reply-To: <3FE41A57.10804.1C795E33-bi+AKbBUZKZeoWH0uzbU5w@public.gmane.org> References: <3FE41A57.10804.1C795E33@localhost> Message-ID: <1071939547.3650.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Sat, 2003-12-20 at 09:45, Paul King wrote: > If an "alternative" medicine which people "say" works (anecdotal evidence, > which isn't worth much, but may provide basis for study), is proven to be of > benefit then it is no longer "alternative". To prove that something is of > benefit, you need placebo trials. I would imagine (without really providing > proof) that there are likely many medicines that have crossed this line. > A friend of mine has a great line in her signature: "The plural of anecdote is not data." Doug -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From billt-l+PWtdWbHAuXFJAUJl40Xg at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 20 17:56:41 2003 From: billt-l+PWtdWbHAuXFJAUJl40Xg at public.gmane.org (billt-l+PWtdWbHAuXFJAUJl40Xg at public.gmane.org) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 12:56:41 -0500 Subject: When will the persecution of MS *end*?! In-Reply-To: <20031220015307.GA588-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org>; from opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA@public.gmane.org on Fri, Dec 19, 2003 at 08:53:07PM -0500 References: <20031219041045.GA265@node1.opengeometry.net> <20031219042437.FTYH317816.fep04-mail.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com@pittlandctr8at> <20031219044923.GA441@node1.opengeometry.net> <3FE2E69B.2070804@rogers.com> <20031220015307.GA588@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <20031220125641.B9866@diamond.ss.org> If this is the same case I remember, GM was taken to court by a conglomerate of after market radio manufacturers because they changed the electrical connectors it used for the radio to a non-standard connector that could only be purchased from GM. The ruling was that GM was using its control of the design and manufacture of the cars in a monopolistic way. Bill On Fri, Dec 19, 2003 at 08:53:07PM -0500, William Park wrote: > On Fri, Dec 19, 2003 at 06:52:59AM -0500, James Knott wrote: > > >RealNetwork is like after-market car radio company that is suing GM > > >because GM has the arrogance to put radio in all GM cars, thereby > > >shutting out after-market radio companies. > > > > Actually, that matter did go to court and the auto makers lost. > > What do you mean they lost? You mean GM can't sell red cars, because > that will shutout after-market companies selling red paints? > > -- > William Park, Open Geometry Consulting, > Linux solution for data management and processing. > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jzygmont-tEQKYFGiemxAYG7eUwYNkWD2FQJk+8+b at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 20 18:11:59 2003 From: jzygmont-tEQKYFGiemxAYG7eUwYNkWD2FQJk+8+b at public.gmane.org (Justin Zygmont) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 13:11:59 -0500 (EST) Subject: VPN question In-Reply-To: <3FE43BDC.9050803-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <3FE43BDC.9050803@rogers.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 20 Dec 2003, James Knott wrote: > Justin Zygmont wrote: > > Just a thought about VPN's and a hope to get back on topic to fun linux > > things, I was wondering if anyone knows why an encrypted VPN is so > > important using a phone line when it's usually just a point to point link > > with no chance of interception? > > Why do you think a phone line has no chance of interception? Phone > lines have been tapped for years. It is very easy to do, if you know how. to intercept data transmission? I don't think so. I never heard of that happening. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 20 19:36:33 2003 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 14:36:33 -0500 Subject: Waaaay offtopic In-Reply-To: <3FE41A57.10804.1C795E33-bi+AKbBUZKZeoWH0uzbU5w@public.gmane.org> References: <3FE41A57.10804.1C795E33@localhost> Message-ID: <3FE4A4C1.6090304@rogers.com> Paul King wrote: > Date sent: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 22:40:29 -0500 > From: James Knott > To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > Subject: Re: [TLUG]: Waaaay offtopic > Send reply to: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > > >>Bottom line, is much of that so called "medicine" cannot show any >>benefit in comparitive tests. > > > I am not sure what side you are taking, but first, I would like you to give me > a "for instance" here. > > If an "alternative" medicine which people "say" works (anecdotal evidence, > which isn't worth much, but may provide basis for study), is proven to be of > benefit then it is no longer "alternative". To prove that something is of > benefit, you need placebo trials. I would imagine (without really providing > proof) that there are likely many medicines that have crossed this line. I'm on the same side as you. If you claim something has benefit, do the studies that show said benefit and don't forget to mention any risks that turn up. There are many standard medications, that came from natural remedies. The most obvious is Aspirin. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 20 20:01:14 2003 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 15:01:14 -0500 Subject: VPN question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3FE4AA8A.2010004@rogers.com> Justin Zygmont wrote: > On Sat, 20 Dec 2003, James Knott wrote: > > >>Justin Zygmont wrote: >> >>>Just a thought about VPN's and a hope to get back on topic to fun linux >>>things, I was wondering if anyone knows why an encrypted VPN is so >>>important using a phone line when it's usually just a point to point link >>>with no chance of interception? >> >>Why do you think a phone line has no chance of interception? Phone >>lines have been tapped for years. It is very easy to do, if you know how. > > > to intercept data transmission? I don't think so. I never heard of that > happening. > > You may not have heard of it happening, but it's easy to do. When you get a phone line, it goes to the central office, where there is plenty of equipment to monitor the connection. It isn't terribly difficult to plug in the appropriate equipment to monitor whatever is carried on the circuit. Also, in many homes there are line protectors mounted just outside the point where the cable enters the building. On the underside of many of those, is a pair of screw terminals, where someone could easily connect for tapping into your line. As far as getting the data, it was very easy in the days of 1200 bps and slower modems, but it's still not that difficult to do. For example, the source code for the Linux drivers for many "Winmodems" is available for download. It wouldn't be too hard for a competent programmer, to turn that modem into a monitor capable of intercepting V.92 modems etc. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 20 19:52:45 2003 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 14:52:45 -0500 Subject: When will the persecution of MS *end*?! In-Reply-To: <20031220125641.B9866-l+PWtdWbHAuXFJAUJl40Xg@public.gmane.org> References: <20031219041045.GA265@node1.opengeometry.net> <20031219042437.FTYH317816.fep04-mail.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com@pittlandctr8at> <20031219044923.GA441@node1.opengeometry.net> <3FE2E69B.2070804@rogers.com> <20031220015307.GA588@node1.opengeometry.net> <20031220125641.B9866@diamond.ss.org> Message-ID: <20031220195245.GB288@node1.opengeometry.net> On Sat, Dec 20, 2003 at 12:56:41PM -0500, billt-l+PWtdWbHAuXFJAUJl40Xg at public.gmane.org wrote: > > If this is the same case I remember, GM was taken to court by a > conglomerate of after market radio manufacturers because they changed > the electrical connectors it used for the radio to a non-standard > connector that could only be purchased from GM. > > The ruling was that GM was using its control of the design and > manufacture of the cars in a monopolistic way. Maybe there were some other factors, like agreement between GM and supplier for standardization but GM changed its design unilaterally. GM changes car shape, design, parts, etc. And, I don't think GM has to get after-market companies' approval everytime. -- William Park, Open Geometry Consulting, Linux solution for data management and processing. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 20 20:09:19 2003 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 15:09:19 -0500 Subject: When will the persecution of MS *end*?! In-Reply-To: <20031220195245.GB288-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20031219041045.GA265@node1.opengeometry.net> <20031219042437.FTYH317816.fep04-mail.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com@pittlandctr8at> <20031219044923.GA441@node1.opengeometry.net> <3FE2E69B.2070804@rogers.com> <20031220015307.GA588@node1.opengeometry.net> <20031220125641.B9866@diamond.ss.org> <20031220195245.GB288@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <3FE4AC6F.9080201@rogers.com> William Park wrote: > On Sat, Dec 20, 2003 at 12:56:41PM -0500, billt-l+PWtdWbHAuXFJAUJl40Xg at public.gmane.org wrote: > >>If this is the same case I remember, GM was taken to court by a >>conglomerate of after market radio manufacturers because they changed >>the electrical connectors it used for the radio to a non-standard >>connector that could only be purchased from GM. >> >>The ruling was that GM was using its control of the design and >>manufacture of the cars in a monopolistic way. > > > Maybe there were some other factors, like agreement between GM and > supplier for standardization but GM changed its design unilaterally. GM > changes car shape, design, parts, etc. And, I don't think GM has to get > after-market companies' approval everytime. > Well, whatever the details, the courts appear to have disagreed with you and I suspect they had more info available on this, than either of us have. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 20 19:59:56 2003 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter L. Peres) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 21:59:56 +0200 (IST) Subject: When will the persecution of MS *end*?! In-Reply-To: <20031220103117.A9866-l+PWtdWbHAuXFJAUJl40Xg@public.gmane.org> References: <20031219041045.GA265@node1.opengeometry.net> <20031219042437.FTYH317816.fep04-mail.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com@pittlandctr8at> <20031220103117.A9866@diamond.ss.org> Message-ID: On Sat, 20 Dec 2003, billt-l+PWtdWbHAuXFJAUJl40Xg at public.gmane.org wrote: > > ATT won 28 anti-trust law suits, and lost only one. > Standard Oil won 12 but lost only one. > > I think there is a pattern. Indeed. In the USA. Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 20 20:33:26 2003 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter L. Peres) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 22:33:26 +0200 (IST) Subject: shared library linking Message-ID: Back to linux: I have a set of object files resulting from compiling a project and I want to make them into a shared library. But I can't. It only works if I link against ld-linux.so.1 which links to libc.so.5. It's as follows: gcc -shared -o foo.so foo.o /lib/ld-linux.so.1: ok, also links to libc.so.5 gcc -shared -o foo.so foo.o /lib/ld-linux.so.2: ng, ldd complains gcc -shared -o foo.so foo.o /lib/ld-linux.so.1 /lib/ld-linux.so.2: ok, ldd complains about possible conflict libc.so.5<->libc.so.6, linked against both libc.so.5 and libc.so.6 (which has precendence?) All other current system libs (like libc etc) are linked against ld-linux.so.2 What could cause this strangeness ? I suspect that my compiler setup is somehow wrong. Any input would be much appreciated. thanks, Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jvetterli-zC6tqtfhjqE at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 20 22:23:10 2003 From: jvetterli-zC6tqtfhjqE at public.gmane.org (John Vetterli) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 17:23:10 -0500 (EST) Subject: DVD Burning and Viewing In-Reply-To: <20031219095248.55772c81.jmyshrall-6duGhz7i8susTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org> References: <20031219095248.55772c81.jmyshrall@golden.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Dec 2003, John Myshrall wrote: > In regards to burning. I know K3B is pretty good as is CDrecord from the > command line. Any other suggestions ? I use growisofs from dvd+rw-tools (which I think may be just an offshoot of cdrecord) for burning DVDs, mostly because cdrecord is not very friendly to DVD+R drives. So long as I remember to use the -dvd-compat flag, it has given me no problems. JV -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jvetterli-zC6tqtfhjqE at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 20 22:28:33 2003 From: jvetterli-zC6tqtfhjqE at public.gmane.org (John Vetterli) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 17:28:33 -0500 (EST) Subject: DVD Burning and Viewing In-Reply-To: <20031219210741.GA63641-7r3UYZMxfuqyvPIx3LBjwNHuzzzSOjJt@public.gmane.org> References: <20031219095248.55772c81.jmyshrall@golden.net> <3FE358EC.5000802@truxtar.com> <20031219210741.GA63641@idiom.novusordo.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Dec 2003, Taavi Burns wrote: > using just the IDE driver. Your commandline starts to look something > like this (yes, I have but one IDE channel, so hdb is my burner): > cdrecord dev=ATAPI:/dev/hdb speed=24 image.iso Does this setup give you problems? I was under the impression that putting the hard-drive and cd-burner on the same ide channel could lead to buffer underrun errors, since the controller has problems dealing with both devices in use at the same time. JV -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jwtlai-Xhj3G7Rj6JI at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 20 23:02:32 2003 From: jwtlai-Xhj3G7Rj6JI at public.gmane.org (Jim W Lai) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 17:02:32 -0600 (CST) Subject: VPN question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 20 Dec 2003, Justin Zygmont wrote: > On Sat, 20 Dec 2003, James Knott wrote: > > Why do you think a phone line has no chance of interception? Phone > > lines have been tapped for years. It is very easy to do, if you know how. > > to intercept data transmission? I don't think so. I never heard of that > happening. It's been done. http://zdnet.com.com/2100-11-501418.html?legacy=zdnn By John Simons The Wall Street Journal Online September 30, 1999, 5:00 PM PT Morris and technicians at the FBI's engineering lab in Quantico, Va., worked together to draft the specifications for the device Morris wanted. It would need to do the reverse of what a computer's modem does. A modem takes digital data from a computer and translates it to analog signals that can be sent via phone lines. Morris's device would intercept the analog signals on Cantrell's phone line and convert those impulses back to digital signals so the FBI's computers could capture and record each of a suspect's keystrokes." I snipped only the relevant paragraph under fair use. The prototype unit cost U$70K in 1994. With Moore's Law, I'm sure the cost has gone way down. Jim -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 21 00:00:07 2003 From: fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Fraser Campbell) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 19:00:07 -0500 Subject: VPN question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200312201900.07898.fraser@wehave.net> On December 20, 2003 01:15 am, Justin Zygmont wrote: > Just a thought about VPN's and a hope to get back on topic to fun linux > things, I was wondering if anyone knows why an encrypted VPN is so > important using a phone line when it's usually just a point to point link > with no chance of interception? If you're talking about a private phone line dialed onto a private network then I think you have to be doing some pretty serious data pushing to worry about encryption ... if you're sending credit card numbers, tax records or business secrets -- and if it's possible that someone would know that you're doing it and find value in the information -- then it's probably worth encrypting for the little overhead involved (cpu utilization for vpn-type encryption at modem speeds would be a pittance). If your phone line usage is sporadic and doesn't involve much sensitive information then I wouldn't see the value in encryption (though I suppose with such low overhead, why not?). If however you're phone line is connecting to the Internet then encryption becomes more important. Let's say your data travels through 10 different networks (pretty common) to get to it's destination, anyone with admin access (or at least wire access) can potentially intercept your traffic. If you care about your traffic being private at all some encryption just makes sense ... encryption can be at the app layer (ssh, https, secure imap, etc.), at the network layer (vpn) or at both the app and network layer. If by bringing up phone lines you're meaning the old argument of cable being shared versus DSL not being shared then I don't agree that any distinction needs to be made in that respect ... either way you're connecting to the share network known as the Internet. Also, last I had Rogers, it appears that my cable connection was switched (I only saw my own traffic and broadcast traffic. -- Fraser Campbell http://www.wehave.net/ Georgetown, Ontario, Canada Debian GNU/Linux -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 21 00:08:56 2003 From: fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Fraser Campbell) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 19:08:56 -0500 Subject: VPN question In-Reply-To: <200312201900.07898.fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org> References: <200312201900.07898.fraser@wehave.net> Message-ID: <200312201908.56595.fraser@wehave.net> On December 20, 2003 07:00 pm, Fraser Campbell wrote: > If you care about your traffic being private at all some encryption just > makes sense ... encryption can be at the app layer (ssh, https, secure > imap, etc.), at the network layer (vpn) or at both the app and network > layer. Also encryption doesn't stop people from being dumb. For example allowing password based authentication with sshd leaves a rather weak link in the chain (depending on users to use good passwords), IWO if you use strong encryption with weak authentication you might as well not bother. -- Fraser Campbell http://www.wehave.net/ Georgetown, Ontario, Canada Debian GNU/Linux -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 21 01:22:54 2003 From: davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (David J Patrick) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 20:22:54 -0500 Subject: anti-spam spam... In-Reply-To: <3FE46D0A.8050606-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <20031219054807.01c4913f.joehill@sympatico.ca> <3FE46781.4060201@sympatico.ca> <3FE46D0A.8050606@rogers.com> Message-ID: <3FE4F5EE.6020105@sympatico.ca> Tom Legrady wrote: > I was astounded yesterday, to receive a "Nigerian" style email from > India .... > > Those darned Indians ... first they take our shoe factory jobs, then > they take our programming jobs, they've replaced our MDs, now they're > moving in on nigerian swindlers. And you thought MS was a threat to > world peace! Are you familiar with the concept of "spam-baiting" ? The best laugh I've had in a while was the result of a visit to www.419eaters.com That such an email originated from India would only add an hilarious twist ! cheers, djp -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From teddymills-VFlxZYho3OA at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 21 05:53:08 2003 From: teddymills-VFlxZYho3OA at public.gmane.org (Teddy Mills) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 00:53:08 -0500 Subject: LF smaller distro to use as foundation to build a custom server onto Message-ID: <002001c3c786$b6e7de60$0301a8c0@amazon> I guess the subject says it all. Im looking for a smaller distro to use as a foundation to build a custom server onto. 3 Requirements 1) Open source friendly I will be using all opens-source tars. To compile all that source, it should have a current GCC, programmers development and libraries. 2) Small footprint of 200 to 400MB (no need for X-Windows, but I'll take it if everythings not too bloated) I know theres lots of distros out there. I figure there's got to be a mini distro of about ~200-~400MB that will fit the bill. 3) Ease of use There are some like the Linux from Scratch that will require serious amounts of work. I want a base to work from. Not build the base itself. Please reply here with your recommendations. Thanks TLUG! /teddy --------------------------------------------------------------- teddy mills http://www.vger.ca VGER directives...To collect...all that is collectable. To sell...all that is saleable.To merchandise...all that is merchandisable. Family Guys, Quagmire "allllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll right" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 21 06:05:46 2003 From: fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Fraser Campbell) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 01:05:46 -0500 Subject: LF smaller distro to use as foundation to build a custom server onto In-Reply-To: <002001c3c786$b6e7de60$0301a8c0-vAnPq90cUBg@public.gmane.org> References: <002001c3c786$b6e7de60$0301a8c0@amazon> Message-ID: <200312210105.46491.fraser@wehave.net> On December 21, 2003 12:53 am, Teddy Mills wrote: > 2) Small footprint of 200 to 400MB (no need for X-Windows, but I'll take > it if everythings not too bloated) > I know theres lots of distros out there. I figure there's got to be a > mini distro of about ~200-~400MB that will fit the bill. Debian starts at less than 100MB, how much more than that figure you end up at depends on the development libraries you will install. -- Fraser Campbell http://www.wehave.net/ Georgetown, Ontario, Canada Debian GNU/Linux -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 21 06:12:45 2003 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 01:12:45 -0500 Subject: LF smaller distro to use as foundation to build a custom server onto In-Reply-To: <002001c3c786$b6e7de60$0301a8c0-vAnPq90cUBg@public.gmane.org> References: <002001c3c786$b6e7de60$0301a8c0@amazon> Message-ID: <20031221061245.GA1773@node1.opengeometry.net> On Sun, Dec 21, 2003 at 12:53:08AM -0500, Teddy Mills wrote: > I guess the subject says it all. > Im looking for a smaller distro to use as a foundation to build a custom > server onto. > > 3 Requirements > > 1) Open source friendly > I will be using all opens-source tars. To compile all that source, it > should have a current GCC, programmers development and libraries. > > 2) Small footprint of 200 to 400MB (no need for X-Windows, but I'll take it > if everythings not too bloated) > I know theres lots of distros out there. I figure there's got to be a mini > distro of about ~200-~400MB that will fit the bill. > > 3) Ease of use > There are some like the Linux from Scratch that will require serious amounts > of work. I want a base to work from. > Not build the base itself. > > > Please reply here with your recommendations. > Thanks TLUG! Slackware -- William Park, Open Geometry Consulting, Linux solution for data management and processing. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 21 07:25:02 2003 From: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 02:25:02 -0500 (EST) Subject: LF smaller distro to use as foundation to build a custom server onto In-Reply-To: <200312210105.46491.fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org> References: <002001c3c786$b6e7de60$0301a8c0@amazon> <200312210105.46491.fraser@wehave.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 21 Dec 2003, Fraser Campbell wrote: > Debian starts at less than 100MB, how much more than that figure you end > up at depends on the development libraries you will install. When building a server I normally start with a base Debian Stable install and skip both tasksel (low granularity task selection) and dselect (high granularity task selection) and just apt-get exactly what the box needs. The extensive dependency tree built into apt handles it all nicely. Rob -- Robert Brockway B.Sc. email: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org, zzbrock at uqconnect.net Linux counter project ID #16440 (http://counter.li.org) "The earth is but one country and mankind its citizens" -Baha'u'llah -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jzygmont-tEQKYFGiemxAYG7eUwYNkWD2FQJk+8+b at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 21 08:44:41 2003 From: jzygmont-tEQKYFGiemxAYG7eUwYNkWD2FQJk+8+b at public.gmane.org (Justin Zygmont) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 03:44:41 -0500 (EST) Subject: VPN question In-Reply-To: <200312201900.07898.fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org> References: <200312201900.07898.fraser@wehave.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 20 Dec 2003, Fraser Campbell wrote: > On December 20, 2003 01:15 am, Justin Zygmont wrote: > > > Just a thought about VPN's and a hope to get back on topic to fun linux > > things, I was wondering if anyone knows why an encrypted VPN is so > > important using a phone line when it's usually just a point to point link > > with no chance of interception? > > If you're talking about a private phone line dialed onto a private network > then I think you have to be doing some pretty serious data pushing to worry > about encryption ... if you're sending credit card numbers, tax records or > business secrets -- and if it's possible that someone would know that you're > doing it and find value in the information -- then it's probably worth > encrypting for the little overhead involved (cpu utilization for vpn-type > encryption at modem speeds would be a pittance). If your phone line usage is > sporadic and doesn't involve much sensitive information then I wouldn't see > the value in encryption (though I suppose with such low overhead, why not?). > > If however you're phone line is connecting to the Internet then encryption > becomes more important. Let's say your data travels through 10 different > networks (pretty common) to get to it's destination, anyone with admin access > (or at least wire access) can potentially intercept your traffic. If you > care about your traffic being private at all some encryption just makes sense > ... encryption can be at the app layer (ssh, https, secure imap, etc.), at > the network layer (vpn) or at both the app and network layer. > > If by bringing up phone lines you're meaning the old argument of cable being > shared versus DSL not being shared then I don't agree that any distinction > needs to be made in that respect ... either way you're connecting to the > share network known as the Internet. Also, last I had Rogers, it appears > that my cable connection was switched (I only saw my own traffic and > broadcast traffic. I see, that clears things up quite a bit. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jzygmont-tEQKYFGiemxAYG7eUwYNkWD2FQJk+8+b at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 21 08:50:31 2003 From: jzygmont-tEQKYFGiemxAYG7eUwYNkWD2FQJk+8+b at public.gmane.org (Justin Zygmont) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 03:50:31 -0500 (EST) Subject: VPN question (ssh) In-Reply-To: <200312201908.56595.fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org> References: <200312201908.56595.fraser@wehave.net> Message-ID: > On December 20, 2003 07:00 pm, Fraser Campbell wrote: > > > If you care about your traffic being private at all some encryption just > > makes sense ... encryption can be at the app layer (ssh, https, secure > > imap, etc.), at the network layer (vpn) or at both the app and network > > layer. > > Also encryption doesn't stop people from being dumb. For example allowing > password based authentication with sshd leaves a rather weak link in the > chain (depending on users to use good passwords), IWO if you use strong > encryption with weak authentication you might as well not bother. but the password is encrypted in transfer right? maybe i'm wrong about this, but doesn't ssh use asymetric encryption initially, then symetric after the session key is established? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From scotta-cpI+UMyWUv9BDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 21 11:42:11 2003 From: scotta-cpI+UMyWUv9BDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Scott Allen) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 06:42:11 -0500 Subject: When will the persecution of MS *end*?! In-Reply-To: <3FE46A67.20201-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org>; from davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org on Sat, Dec 20, 2003 at 10:27:35 -0500 References: <20031219041045.GA265@node1.opengeometry.net> <20031219042437.FTYH317816.fep04-mail.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com@pittlandctr8at> <20031219044923.GA441@node1.opengeometry.net> <3FE444E2.6030101@rogers.com> <3FE46A67.20201@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <20031221114211.GA3130@localhost> On Sat Dec 20,2003 10:27:35 AM David J Patrick wrote: > I used Stacker on my zip100 work disks. Now I have data trapped untill > the day when I set up a Win3.1 box and install the Stacker4 disks I > found at Goodwill. > That day is a long way off, but I guard the floppies that constitute > the shred of hope > that someday I'll get those files back ! If you haven't already, you would be wise to make duplicates of those floppies, and also burn images of them to a CD-ROM. Floppies lose their magnetism over time and thus have a shelf life of ~10-20 years. They may no longer read when you get around to trying to use them. You should do the same with the zip100 disks. -- ** Scott Allen scotta-cpI+UMyWUv9BDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org ** ** Toronto, Ontario, Canada ** -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 21 13:30:05 2003 From: colinmc151-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 08:30:05 -0500 Subject: anti-spam spam... References: <20031219054807.01c4913f.joehill@sympatico.ca> <3FE46781.4060201@sympatico.ca> <3FE46D0A.8050606@rogers.com> <3FE4F5EE.6020105@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <001b01c3c7c6$8be99920$4201a8c0@ym.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> From: "David J Patrick" on Saturday, December 20, 2003 8:22 PM wrote: > Are you familiar with the concept of "spam-baiting" ? > The best laugh I've had in a while was the result of a visit to > www.419eaters.com > That such an email originated from India would only add an hilarious twist ! > cheers, The above URL is wrong, but try the following: http://www.419eater.com/ or alternatively: http://www.whatsthebloodypoint.com/ Colin McGregor -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 21 13:20:53 2003 From: fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Fraser Campbell) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 08:20:53 -0500 Subject: VPN question (ssh) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200312210820.53539.fraser@wehave.net> On December 21, 2003 03:50 am, you wrote: > > Also encryption doesn't stop people from being dumb. For example > > allowing password based authentication with sshd leaves a rather weak > > link in the chain (depending on users to use good passwords), IWO if you > > use strong encryption with weak authentication you might as well not > > bother. > > but the password is encrypted in transfer right? maybe i'm wrong about > this, but doesn't ssh use asymetric encryption initially, then symetric > after the session key is established? Yes, your username and password are encrypted in transit. My point was that if you allow password authentication and your root password is g0d, all the encryption in the world cannot protect you. Better to make the authentication barrier a lot higher ... require key based authentication, ensure that all private keys are passphrase protected, don't allow root login unless it's essential, restrict access to ssh by ip if it doesn't cause too much heartache, etc. Another example would be with VPNs. Let's say Justin Inc. installed a VPN, employees gotta have access from home after all! Now your poor employees can't handle installing X.509 certificates, it's too much work for you to manage them and ahh who cares it's all encrypted anyway. So in the interest of keeping things simple you setup pre-shared key authentication with a pre-shared key of "justin's vpn" ... you've now created a solution where the data is secure in transit but very insecure in other ways. Authentication barrier is low, guesswork can potentially lead an attacker to full vpn access to your network. Secure webservers are another example. image a "secure" webserver that allows telnet access from all over the Internet, that stores credit cards in an unencrypted form in a database, etc. Sure the data in transit is tough to get at but the data at rest is easy pickings. Anyway, now I'm rambling about stuff that likely had nothing to do with your original question, time to go fishing :-) -- Fraser Campbell http://www.wehave.net/ Georgetown, Ontario, Canada Debian GNU/Linux -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 21 13:32:31 2003 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 08:32:31 -0500 Subject: VPN question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3FE5A0EF.7010502@rogers.com> Justin Zygmont wrote: > On Sat, 20 Dec 2003, Fraser Campbell wrote: >>If by bringing up phone lines you're meaning the old argument of cable being >>shared versus DSL not being shared then I don't agree that any distinction >>needs to be made in that respect ... either way you're connecting to the >>share network known as the Internet. Also, last I had Rogers, it appears >>that my cable connection was switched (I only saw my own traffic and >>broadcast traffic. > > > I see, that clears things up quite a bit. Further on this. Those point of sale terminals, where you use your debit or credit cards, use encryption, even on dial up phones. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 21 13:32:39 2003 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 08:32:39 -0500 Subject: VPN question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3FE5A0F7.7080604@rogers.com> Justin Zygmont wrote: > On Sat, 20 Dec 2003, Fraser Campbell wrote: >>If by bringing up phone lines you're meaning the old argument of cable being >>shared versus DSL not being shared then I don't agree that any distinction >>needs to be made in that respect ... either way you're connecting to the >>share network known as the Internet. Also, last I had Rogers, it appears >>that my cable connection was switched (I only saw my own traffic and >>broadcast traffic. > > > I see, that clears things up quite a bit. Further on this. Those point of sale terminals, where you use your debit or credit cards, use encryption, even on dial up phones. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 21 13:38:00 2003 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 08:38:00 -0500 Subject: VPN question (ssh) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3FE5A238.3060209@rogers.com> Justin Zygmont wrote: >>On December 20, 2003 07:00 pm, Fraser Campbell wrote: >> >> >>> If you care about your traffic being private at all some encryption just >>>makes sense ... encryption can be at the app layer (ssh, https, secure >>>imap, etc.), at the network layer (vpn) or at both the app and network >>>layer. >> >>Also encryption doesn't stop people from being dumb. For example allowing >>password based authentication with sshd leaves a rather weak link in the >>chain (depending on users to use good passwords), IWO if you use strong >>encryption with weak authentication you might as well not bother. > > > but the password is encrypted in transfer right? maybe i'm wrong about > this, but doesn't ssh use asymetric encryption initially, then symetric > after the session key is established? The problem with weak passwords, is that they're vulnerable to dictionary or social engineering attacks. For example, if you use your kid's name, someone who knows you, may try that first. On the other hand, if you were to use a sequence of characters generated by md5sum, that password would be resistant to those types of attacks. One method to reduce the risk of weak passwords, is to allow a fixed number of wrong passwords, before locking the account. The account can be locked for a period of time or until reset by the admin. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From wildberger-iRg7kjdsKiH3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 21 14:34:28 2003 From: wildberger-iRg7kjdsKiH3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (John Wildberger) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 09:34:28 -0500 Subject: C programming question In-Reply-To: <20031220045606.GA76466-7r3UYZMxfuqyvPIx3LBjwNHuzzzSOjJt@public.gmane.org> References: <200312191808.04306.skuznets@blueprint.org> <20031220045606.GA76466@idiom.novusordo.net> Message-ID: <200312210934.28944.wildberger@cogeco.ca> I got interesting replies to my question on how to access physical memory. In summary: Yes, it can be done. No, it cannot be done. It is difficult. It is not easy. What comes to my mind is: "Das gefingerpoken in den Gewerken is not for Dummkopfen and is verboten." :-) Well, this certainly applies to me, and therefore I will have to reconsider my approach to trying to understand the intricacies of the Linux kernel. Thanks to all you good folks in helping to give advice. John -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 21 17:24:49 2003 From: henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org (Henry Spencer) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 12:24:49 -0500 (EST) Subject: media life (was Re:When will the persecution of MS *end*?!) In-Reply-To: <20031221114211.GA3130-bi+AKbBUZKZeoWH0uzbU5w@public.gmane.org> References: <20031221114211.GA3130@localhost> Message-ID: On Sun, 21 Dec 2003, Scott Allen wrote: > > That day is a long way off, but I guard the floppies that constitute > > the shred of hope that someday I'll get those files back ! > > If you haven't already, you would be wise to make duplicates of those > floppies, and also burn images of them to a CD-ROM. Floppies lose their > magnetism over time and thus have a shelf life of ~10-20 years. They > may no longer read when you get around to trying to use them... Brace yourself: the shelf life of a burned CD-R or CD-RW is likewise uncertain. The archival librarians don't consider even CDROMs (real factory-stamped ones, not user-burned disks) to be an archival-class medium, because of concerns about the longevity of some of the materials used in them. If you want to be sure you will always be able to read something, there is no substitute for making a fresh copy every 5-10 years. Henry Spencer henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 21 17:40:22 2003 From: henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org (Henry Spencer) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 12:40:22 -0500 (EST) Subject: media life (was Re:When will the persecution of MS *end*?!) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I wrote: > Brace yourself: the shelf life of a burned CD-R or CD-RW is likewise > uncertain... Oh yes, and I meant to add: and then there's the question of whether you will still have a *reader* for those media ten or twenty years from now. Eleven years ago, I had to make a point of specifying that my 3.5in floppy should be drive A on my new machine. Now, good luck trying to find a 5.25in floppy drive at all. And the days of 3.5in floppies are (finally) numbered, with USB flash drives likely to kill them soon. Another reason to regularly recopy something you want to save permanently is simply to get it onto modern media. Henry Spencer henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 21 18:08:44 2003 From: davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (David J Patrick) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 13:08:44 -0500 Subject: Waaaay offtopic In-Reply-To: <3FE385FD.5000301-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <3FE385FD.5000301@rogers.com> Message-ID: <3FE5E1AC.9000207@sympatico.ca> > One person I'd never believe is a naturopathic "doctor". Naturopathy > is based on a bogus belief that a tiny amount of something that causes > the same symptoms as a disease will cure or prevent it. The problem > is, that the doses generally prescribed are physically impossible. > For example a common dilution of the "medicine" is 10X or divided with > water or alcohol 10:1, 10 times. The problem with this amount of > dilution, is that the number of molecules gets in the way. In order > to consume one molecule of the substance, you'd have to drink several > thousand gallons of water. They also have another dilution of 100C, > which is 100:1 100 times, which is even more impossible. > > You might want to read "Voodoo Science" by Dr. Robert Park or "A Demon > Haunted World", by Carl Sagan for further info. I think the practice you are slagging is actually "homeopathy". Yes, microdoses sound downright improbable, but I have to say that I have seen it used successfully countless times over the last 30 years. Just because we don't understand something doesn't always mean it's bogus. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 21 18:55:53 2003 From: davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (David J Patrick) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 13:55:53 -0500 Subject: Waaaay offtopic In-Reply-To: <20031219204423.7dcdf4af.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <20031219204423.7dcdf4af.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <3FE5ECB9.4040101@sympatico.ca> >Holy crap, all I wanted to do was give anyone else out there with the flu a "I >know how yer feelin'", I never thought it would come to this. > >Sorry, but I'm gonna hafta do it. > >*Hitler* caused AIDS. Muahahahahaha! > > So much for that bit of mailing list magic, Joe. maybe the updated spell is "Osama!" djp -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 21 19:02:09 2003 From: davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (David J Patrick) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 14:02:09 -0500 Subject: Waaaay offtopic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3FE5EE31.3050907@sympatico.ca> > Anybody interested in a new and "unproven" effective treatment for > bacterial and viral disease? > > > -Hugh I used to humbug anything that didn't immediately make sense to me. but I have had too many things like that "explained" after a long period of disbelief. I'm now quite agnostic but open. Our human understanding of the workings of life are puny, at best. We laugh at the ancient Romans for dining on lead plates, while sipping water from clear plastic, which has been demonstrated to leach surprising amounts of estrogen. Surviving humans, in the distant future, will be slapping their knees recounting our follies. They will simultaneously be doing something equally stupid. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 21 19:05:35 2003 From: cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org (cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 14:05:35 -0500 Subject: Waaaay offtopic In-Reply-To: Message from David J Patrick of "Sun, 21 Dec 2003 13:08:44 EST." <3FE5E1AC.9000207-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FE385FD.5000301@rogers.com> <3FE5E1AC.9000207@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <20031221190536.9E7A140B2@cbbrowne.com> > > > One person I'd never believe is a naturopathic "doctor". Naturopathy > > is based on a bogus belief that a tiny amount of something that causes > > the same symptoms as a disease will cure or prevent it. The problem > > is, that the doses generally prescribed are physically impossible. > > For example a common dilution of the "medicine" is 10X or divided with > > water or alcohol 10:1, 10 times. The problem with this amount of > > dilution, is that the number of molecules gets in the way. In order > > to consume one molecule of the substance, you'd have to drink several > > thousand gallons of water. They also have another dilution of 100C, > > which is 100:1 100 times, which is even more impossible. > > > > You might want to read "Voodoo Science" by Dr. Robert Park or "A Demon > > Haunted World", by Carl Sagan for further info. > > I think the practice you are slagging is actually "homeopathy". > Yes, microdoses sound downright improbable, but I have to say that I > have seen it used successfully countless times over the last 30 years. > Just because we don't understand something doesn't always mean it's bogus. "Countless" I am sure. The _real_ effect may be that patients that drink a bunch of water do better than those that are allowed to remain dehydrated. What we know is that the reasons for efficacity claimed by homeopaths are at odds with any notion of common sense, particularly at the high dilution levels. After a "100C"-like dilution, there are only a few reasonable choices: - The water being added in contains some unidentified-by-practitioner medicative agent; - Dehydration is the symptom being treated; - They are engaging in some form of "faith healing" where the 'medicine' is merely the substrate to strengthen the recipient's faith that something is happening to them. -- let name="cbbrowne" and tld="ntlug.org" in name ^ "@" ^ tld;; http://www.ntlug.org/~cbbrowne/sgml.html Why do they put Braille dots on the keypad of the drive-up ATM? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 21 19:07:38 2003 From: davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (David J Patrick) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 14:07:38 -0500 Subject: Waaaay offtopic In-Reply-To: <20031219215458.041e7943.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <20031219215458.041e7943.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <3FE5EF7A.3050400@sympatico.ca> >Hugh, please, it's getting painful. I mean seriously: > >"Even though the only people who are losing bone calcium are those who >drink milk like water, they will defend their livelihood." > >Does that make *any* sense whatsoever to you? Do you really think the mind that >came up with that sentence is ever going to see your point of view? > > It's my (feeble) understanding that a) milk offers one of the least digestible forms of calcium b) when someone consumes way more protien than the body requires (see: drinks milk like water) the excess protien is discarded along with the needed calcium. Ya want calcium ? Eat spinach. djp -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 21 19:09:43 2003 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 14:09:43 -0500 Subject: Waaaay offtopic In-Reply-To: <3FE5E1AC.9000207-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FE385FD.5000301@rogers.com> <3FE5E1AC.9000207@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <3FE5EFF7.1040007@rogers.com> David J Patrick wrote: > >> One person I'd never believe is a naturopathic "doctor". Naturopathy >> is based on a bogus belief that a tiny amount of something that causes >> the same symptoms as a disease will cure or prevent it. The problem >> is, that the doses generally prescribed are physically impossible. >> For example a common dilution of the "medicine" is 10X or divided with >> water or alcohol 10:1, 10 times. The problem with this amount of >> dilution, is that the number of molecules gets in the way. In order >> to consume one molecule of the substance, you'd have to drink several >> thousand gallons of water. They also have another dilution of 100C, >> which is 100:1 100 times, which is even more impossible. >> >> You might want to read "Voodoo Science" by Dr. Robert Park or "A Demon >> Haunted World", by Carl Sagan for further info. > > > I think the practice you are slagging is actually "homeopathy". > Yes, microdoses sound downright improbable, but I have to say that I > have seen it used successfully countless times over the last 30 years. > Just because we don't understand something doesn't always mean it's bogus. Yes, you were correct in my error about the term, and I corrected my self in another message. However, you say you've seen it work over the years. What proof do you have? Have you run studies that show it works? Or is your "proof" similar to what the other poster said about his "Zapper" preventing the flu? You cannot take individual cases in isolation as proof. You have to show it works when compared to other treatments or lack of treatment. As for homeopathy, at one point in time, it was very beneficial in that it kept people away from what was then conventional medicine, such as blood letting etc., which was often more harmful than helpful. As for the physically impossible minute doses, how does it benefit the patient, if they don't receive so much as a molecule of the substance? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 21 19:12:23 2003 From: davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (David J Patrick) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 14:12:23 -0500 Subject: Waaaay offtopic In-Reply-To: <20031221190536.9E7A140B2-xzRQuAxiFLNWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org> References: <3FE385FD.5000301@rogers.com> <3FE5E1AC.9000207@sympatico.ca> <20031221190536.9E7A140B2@cbbrowne.com> Message-ID: <3FE5F097.6070008@sympatico.ca> >>I think the practice you are slagging is actually "homeopathy". >>Yes, microdoses sound downright improbable, but I have to say that I >>have seen it used successfully countless times over the last 30 years. >>Just because we don't understand something doesn't always mean it's bogus. >> >> > >"Countless" I am sure. > > OK, so I didn't count 'em, how 'bout "many" ? >The _real_ effect may be that patients that drink a bunch of water do >better than those that are allowed to remain dehydrated. > >What we know is that the reasons for efficacity claimed by homeopaths >are at odds with any notion of common sense, particularly at the high >dilution levels. After a "100C"-like dilution, there are only a few >reasonable choices: > > - The water being added in contains some unidentified-by-practitioner > medicative agent; > > - Dehydration is the symptom being treated; > > - They are engaging in some form of "faith healing" where the > 'medicine' is merely the substrate to strengthen the recipient's > faith that something is happening to them. > > OR the our biology responds to extremely subtle agents beyond our current "scientific" understanding. djp -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 21 19:26:31 2003 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 14:26:31 -0500 Subject: Waaaay offtopic In-Reply-To: <3FE5EE31.3050907-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FE5EE31.3050907@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <3FE5F3E7.2030409@rogers.com> David J Patrick wrote: > >> Anybody interested in a new and "unproven" effective treatment for >> bacterial and viral disease? >> >> >> -Hugh > > > I used to humbug anything that didn't immediately make sense to me. > but I have had too many things like that "explained" after a long period > of disbelief. > I'm now quite agnostic but open. Our human understanding of the workings > of life are puny, at best. > We laugh at the ancient Romans for dining on lead plates, while sipping > water from clear plastic, which has been demonstrated to leach > surprising amounts of estrogen. Surviving humans, in the distant future, > will be slapping their knees recounting our follies. > They will simultaneously be doing something equally stupid. There certainly are things that are beyond our current knowledge, some of which may always be. However, to advance our knowledge, proper studies must be made, to verify the various theories. Just making an assumption and declaring it as fact, as some of the ancient Greeks did, accomplishes little. As for the alternative medicines, a study, just as all conventional medicines must go through would tell if they work or are "old wives tales". Undoubtably some natural remedies work, but many others don't. Only a proper trial can tell. Quoting someone's Aunt Martha, whose 2nd cousins neighbour doesn't do it. You cannot take any medication, including a flu shot and tell me next year that it prevented you getting the flu, because you simply don't know if you would have otherwise been afflicted. On the other hand, if you give those shots to 1000 people and compare the results with 1000 others who didn't get the shot, you can say with some confidence that the flu shot was or was not effective or hazardous. That is how to advance knowledge. You prove it. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From anton-F0u+EriZ6ihBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 21 19:29:49 2003 From: anton-F0u+EriZ6ihBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Anton Markov) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 14:29:49 -0500 Subject: Waaaay offtopic In-Reply-To: <3FE5EF7A.3050400-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <20031219215458.041e7943.joehill@sympatico.ca> <3FE5EF7A.3050400@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <3FE5F4AD.30702@truxtar.com> David J Patrick wrote: > Ya want calcium ? Eat spinach. Or take Vitamin/Mineral supplements. I have been taking a combination of Vitamin and Mineral supplements for the past four years, and I can say from personal experience (and that of everyone else who I know takes them) that they work. I am not talking about the cheap stuff you get at the local Shoppers Drug Mart; I buy Nutrilite products. -- Anton Markov <("anton" + "@" + "truxtar" + "." + "com")> GnuPGP Key fingerprint = 5546 A6E2 1FFB 9BB8 15C3 CE34 46B7 8D93 3AD1 44B4 "The difference between insanity and genius is measured only by success." - Some bad guy from 007 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 21 19:35:05 2003 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 14:35:05 -0500 Subject: Waaaay offtopic In-Reply-To: <3FE5F097.6070008-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FE385FD.5000301@rogers.com> <3FE5E1AC.9000207@sympatico.ca> <20031221190536.9E7A140B2@cbbrowne.com> <3FE5F097.6070008@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <3FE5F5E9.9050604@rogers.com> David J Patrick wrote: > OR the our biology responds to extremely subtle agents beyond our > current "scientific" understanding. > djp Given that they're only consuming water, what would those subtle agents be? Can they be shown to work in clinical trials? If not, they're bogus. One of the items that Carl Sagan brought up, was the trips to Lourdes, where miracles supposedly occur. He tallied up the "miracles" that had been acknowlegded by the church and found that the cure rate was less than the natural remission rates. This implies that the "cured" people might just have well stayed home. He further pointed out that the miracle rate was far less than the chance of being killed in a plane crash, while travelling to or from Lourdes. Your "subtle agents" a work??? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From blsonne-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 21 19:47:25 2003 From: blsonne-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Byron Sonne) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 14:47:25 -0500 Subject: Waaaay offtopic In-Reply-To: <20031218014048.3b0a30c4.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <20031218014048.3b0a30c4.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <3FE5F8CD.2060402@rogers.com> > I would just like to say, after 3 days of suffering with a temp of 105 and 0 > hours of sleep, anyone else who got this flu bug goin' around, you have my > *deepest* sympathies. Jeez... Is that what I had? Didn't know anyone else who had the flu so I thought it was just me. Last Sunday night didn't feel well, out of commission Monday and Tuesday and a good bit better Wednesday, finally outta the house on Friday. Didn't have the high temperature, but the *zero hours of sleep* comment was pretty much bang on. I'm convinced that glutamine and high vitamin C intake helps greatly. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 21 19:52:55 2003 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 14:52:55 -0500 Subject: Waaaay offtopic In-Reply-To: <3FE5F4AD.30702-F0u+EriZ6ihBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20031219215458.041e7943.joehill@sympatico.ca> <3FE5EF7A.3050400@sympatico.ca> <3FE5F4AD.30702@truxtar.com> Message-ID: <3FE5FA17.9080903@rogers.com> Anton Markov wrote: > > > David J Patrick wrote: > >> Ya want calcium ? Eat spinach. > > > Or take Vitamin/Mineral supplements. > > I have been taking a combination of Vitamin and Mineral supplements for > the past four years, and I can say from personal experience (and that of > everyone else who I know takes them) that they work. I am not talking > about the cheap stuff you get at the local Shoppers Drug Mart; I buy > Nutrilite products. How do you know they work? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From blsonne-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 21 20:05:39 2003 From: blsonne-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Byron Sonne) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 15:05:39 -0500 Subject: Waaaay offtopic In-Reply-To: <200312180706.55676.fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org> References: <20031218014048.3b0a30c4.joehill@sympatico.ca> <3FE1937C.5020603@rogers.com> <200312180706.55676.fraser@wehave.net> Message-ID: <3FE5FD13.70903@rogers.com> > I got a flu shot this year and within 2 hours I had a 40 degree fever. I was > sick for several days. I think I'll be passing on the opportunity next year. That is a rare reaction and it is probably much more likely that you're reacting to the egg albumin (sp?) proteins used in the production of the shot (I believe the strains are incubated in and farmed from eggs). All the virus used has been killed/deactivated so it is *not* the flu you're getting off of the shot. Of course, I am NOT a doctor so do yourself a favour and verify this with a real licensed physician. Don't trust your health to the internet ;) I've heard others use the 'my friend got the shot and caught the flu from it' as an excuse for not getting it. That's a stupid and idiotic reason to risk compromising public health, but a very small number of people do have reactions to other components of the shot that are not the actual virus. Think of the taxes that'll go up 'cos of more hospital visits from sick folk, cutting down on that would be nice. I still have all 4 grandparents alive and pushing 90, some in questionable health, so a good flu might prove capable of killing them. I'd rather avoid that. Although there is no guarantee that the shot will protection against whatever strain turns out to be the big one, it does drive up the odds in our collective favour. It doesn't cost anything and you can probably just walk into any hospital downtown and get one. It's one of the remaining blessings of a socialized healthcare system; look how they're scrambling in the states 'cos of this. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From anton-F0u+EriZ6ihBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 21 20:31:53 2003 From: anton-F0u+EriZ6ihBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Anton Markov) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 15:31:53 -0500 Subject: Waaaay offtopic In-Reply-To: <3FE5FA17.9080903-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <20031219215458.041e7943.joehill@sympatico.ca> <3FE5EF7A.3050400@sympatico.ca> <3FE5F4AD.30702@truxtar.com> <3FE5FA17.9080903@rogers.com> Message-ID: <3FE60339.1000100@truxtar.com> James, Although I know there have been numerous clinical trials done on the advantages of taking vitamin/mineral supplements, I don't have any to quote right now. This is just out of personal experience and that of other people: After starting to take supplements, people feel less tired. Sometimes I forget to take them for a few weeks, and then I start to feel very tired after 6.5 hours of sleep. When I start taking the supplements again, I start to feel less tired after a few days with the same hectic schedule. Also, the combination of Vitamin C and Echinacea supplements work very well to guard against the flu and common cold. Again, it's just personal experience and that of others. Like any other kind of treatment, it may work for some but not others. Mostly it's for people who don't get enough natural vitamins in their diet. If I remember correctly, humans have to eat somewhere around two or three heads of garlic, four oranges, some crazy amount of carrots, cabbage, etc. every day to get the recomended amount of vitamins. How many people actually eat such amounts? Not many. Why? Because we don't have the time, or we don't like to eat that stuff. Supplements are simply meant to *supplement* our daily diet. We don't have to argue about the importance of vitamins and minerals, do we? Actually, if you want expert opinion, here are two articles from the Journal of the American Medical Association: 1. Fairfield, KM and Fletcher, RH. Vitamins for Chronic Disease Prevention in Adults: Scientific Review JAMA. 2002. 287:3116-3126. 2. Fletcher, RH and Fairfield, KM. Vitamins for Chronic Disease Prevention in Adults: Clinical Applications JAMA. 2002. 287:3127-3129. Anton James Knott wrote: > Anton Markov wrote: > >> >> >> David J Patrick wrote: >> >>> Ya want calcium ? Eat spinach. >> >> >> >> Or take Vitamin/Mineral supplements. >> >> I have been taking a combination of Vitamin and Mineral supplements >> for the past four years, and I can say from personal experience (and >> that of everyone else who I know takes them) that they work. I am not >> talking about the cheap stuff you get at the local Shoppers Drug Mart; >> I buy Nutrilite products. > > > How do you know they work? -- Anton Markov <("anton" + "@" + "truxtar" + "." + "com")> GnuPGP Key fingerprint = 5546 A6E2 1FFB 9BB8 15C3 CE34 46B7 8D93 3AD1 44B4 "The difference between insanity and genius is measured only by success." - Some bad guy from 007 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From mervc-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 21 20:39:57 2003 From: mervc-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org (Merv Curley) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 15:39:57 -0500 Subject: LF smaller distro to use as foundation to build a custom server onto In-Reply-To: <002001c3c786$b6e7de60$0301a8c0-vAnPq90cUBg@public.gmane.org> References: <002001c3c786$b6e7de60$0301a8c0@amazon> Message-ID: <200312211539.57830.mervc@eol.ca> On December 21, 2003 12:53 am, Teddy Mills wrote: > I guess the subject says it all. > Im looking for a smaller distro to use as a foundation to build a custom > server onto. > Look at Gentoo and Vector Linux. They may be too much work, you'll have to decide. But you will have a custom system, fully optimized with Gentoo. -- Merv Curley Scarborough, Ont Libranet Linux 2.8 KDE 3.1.4 KMail 1.5.4 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 21 20:47:40 2003 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 15:47:40 -0500 Subject: Waaaay offtopic In-Reply-To: <3FE60339.1000100-F0u+EriZ6ihBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20031219215458.041e7943.joehill@sympatico.ca> <3FE5EF7A.3050400@sympatico.ca> <3FE5F4AD.30702@truxtar.com> <3FE5FA17.9080903@rogers.com> <3FE60339.1000100@truxtar.com> Message-ID: <3FE606EC.5070705@rogers.com> Anton Markov wrote: > James, > > Although I know there have been numerous clinical trials done on the > advantages of taking vitamin/mineral supplements, I don't have any to > quote right now. This is just out of personal experience and that of > other people: > > After starting to take supplements, people feel less tired. Sometimes I > forget to take them for a few weeks, and then I start to feel very tired > after 6.5 hours of sleep. When I start taking the supplements again, I > start to feel less tired after a few days with the same hectic schedule. > > Also, the combination of Vitamin C and Echinacea supplements work very > well to guard against the flu and common cold. Again, it's just > personal experience and that of others. > > Like any other kind of treatment, it may work for some but not others. > Mostly it's for people who don't get enough natural vitamins in their > diet. If I remember correctly, humans have to eat somewhere around two > or three heads of garlic, four oranges, some crazy amount of carrots, > cabbage, etc. every day to get the recomended amount of vitamins. How > many people actually eat such amounts? Not many. Why? Because we > don't have the time, or we don't like to eat that stuff. Supplements > are simply meant to *supplement* our daily diet. > > We don't have to argue about the importance of vitamins and minerals, do > we? No, but one thing people are often not aware of, is the placebo effect. You take something and feel better, simply because you took something. As for vitamin supplements, yes they can have certain benefits, but there are some who promote excessive use of them, which may prove harmful. So, as with any other medication, you have to be careful. Anything taken to excess, including water and oxygen, can be fatal. I tend to be sceptical of claims put forth by the people selling the product. This is why medication must be studied in a properly conducted trial and the results *PUBLISHED*. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 21 20:53:55 2003 From: cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org (cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 15:53:55 -0500 Subject: Waaaay offtopic In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 21 Dec 2003 14:12:23 EST." <3FE5F097.6070008-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FE5F097.6070008@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <20031221205356.D7BE340B2@cbbrowne.com> On Sun, 21 Dec 2003 14:12:23 EST, the world broke into rejoicing as David J Patrick said: > > >>I think the practice you are slagging is actually "homeopathy". > >>Yes, microdoses sound downright improbable, but I have to say that I > >>have seen it used successfully countless times over the last 30 years. > >>Just because we don't understand something doesn't always mean it's bogus. > >> > >> > > > >"Countless" I am sure. > > > > > OK, so I didn't count 'em, how 'bout "many" ? > > >The _real_ effect may be that patients that drink a bunch of water do > >better than those that are allowed to remain dehydrated. > > > >What we know is that the reasons for efficacity claimed by homeopaths > >are at odds with any notion of common sense, particularly at the high > >dilution levels. After a "100C"-like dilution, there are only a few > >reasonable choices: > > > > - The water being added in contains some unidentified-by-practitioner > > medicative agent; > > > > - Dehydration is the symptom being treated; > > > > - They are engaging in some form of "faith healing" where the > > 'medicine' is merely the substrate to strengthen the recipient's > > faith that something is happening to them. > > OR the our biology responds to extremely subtle agents beyond our > current "scientific" understanding. That was the opening I left in the first choice, namely that something that is not being identified is being added in the water. The notion that our biology responds to chemicals that are not actually present doesn't fit into what could make sense. -- let name="cbbrowne" and tld="acm.org" in name ^ "@" ^ tld;; http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/nonrdbms.html First Fact About Networks "Pipes can be made wider, but not shorter" -- Mark Miller -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jzygmont-tEQKYFGiemxAYG7eUwYNkWD2FQJk+8+b at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 22 00:39:06 2003 From: jzygmont-tEQKYFGiemxAYG7eUwYNkWD2FQJk+8+b at public.gmane.org (Justin Zygmont) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 19:39:06 -0500 (EST) Subject: LF smaller distro to use as foundation to build a custom server onto In-Reply-To: <200312211539.57830.mervc-MwcKTmeKVNQ@public.gmane.org> References: <200312211539.57830.mervc@eol.ca> Message-ID: On Sun, 21 Dec 2003, Merv Curley wrote: > On December 21, 2003 12:53 am, Teddy Mills wrote: > > I guess the subject says it all. > > Im looking for a smaller distro to use as a foundation to build a custom > > server onto. > > > Look at Gentoo and Vector Linux. They may be too much work, you'll have > to decide. But you will have a custom system, fully optimized with > Gentoo. I've tried Vector linux just to see how it was. It was pretty good and small. I could see that it was largely based on Slackware 9 though. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From teddymills-VFlxZYho3OA at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 22 01:51:36 2003 From: teddymills-VFlxZYho3OA at public.gmane.org (Teddy Mills) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 20:51:36 -0500 Subject: mp3 server Message-ID: <001601c3c82e$22ff8dd0$0301a8c0@amazon> I am setting up a new RH9 system and it is blank ,except for.. Apache 1.329 PHP 4.34 MySQL 4.01 Im looking to make a MP3 music server. Not a streaming server, just something to play some MP3s via Apache. Any recommendations? Does someone have a working MP3 server? ------------------------------------------------------- teddy mills http://www.vger.ca VGER directives...To collect...all that is collectable. To sell...all that is saleable.To merchandise...all that is merchandisable. Family Guys Quagmire "allllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll right" Capt Tenneal "LETS GO!" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 22 02:00:21 2003 From: fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Fraser Campbell) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 21:00:21 -0500 Subject: Waaaay offtopic In-Reply-To: <3FE5FD13.70903-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <20031218014048.3b0a30c4.joehill@sympatico.ca> <200312180706.55676.fraser@wehave.net> <3FE5FD13.70903@rogers.com> Message-ID: <200312212100.21758.fraser@wehave.net> On December 21, 2003 03:05 pm, Byron Sonne wrote: > > I got a flu shot this year and within 2 hours I had a 40 degree fever. I > > was sick for several days. I think I'll be passing on the opportunity > > next year. > > That is a rare reaction and it is probably much more likely that you're > reacting to the egg albumin (sp?) proteins used in the production of the > shot (I believe the strains are incubated in and farmed from eggs). I eat eggs every day so probably didn't react to that. More likely that I was already sick (I did have a (still unexplained) severe toothache prior to shot). > I've heard others use the 'my friend got the shot and caught the flu > from it' as an excuse for not getting it. That's a stupid and idiotic > reason to risk compromising public health I do think vaccinations are a good idea, that's why I got the flu shot ;-) > Think of the taxes that'll go up 'cos of more hospital visits from sick > folk, cutting down on that would be nice. It's nice to imagine but if a hospital's costs go down from reduced visits they'll just find other way to spend their budget ... sure the secretaries need $4,000 computers with flat-screen monitors ;-) -- Fraser Campbell http://www.wehave.net/ Georgetown, Ontario, Canada Debian GNU/Linux -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 22 02:04:51 2003 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 21:04:51 -0500 Subject: Waaaay offtopic In-Reply-To: <3FE5E1AC.9000207-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FE385FD.5000301@rogers.com> <3FE5E1AC.9000207@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <20031222020451.GA13608@m450> On Sun, Dec 21, 2003 at 01:08:44PM -0500, David J Patrick wrote > >You might want to read "Voodoo Science" by Dr. Robert Park or "A Demon > >Haunted World", by Carl Sagan for further info. > > I think the practice you are slagging is actually "homeopathy". Yes, > microdoses sound downright improbable, but I have to say that I have > seen it used successfully countless times over the last 30 years. > Just because we don't understand something doesn't always mean > it's bogus. OK, here's a scientifically verifiable experiment. Equipment ========= - 1 eye-dropper - 1 stirring rod - 2 shot glasses - 2 1-imperial-gallon glass containers - pour 1 imperial gallon of distilled water into 1 of the containers. - pour 6 26-ers of 100-proof whisky into the 2nd container. - take eye-dropper, grab 1 drop from the whisky container, and deposit it into the distilled water - stir the distilled water, and 1 drop of whisky, thoroughly Now comes the fun part. I'll drink 1 shot-glass of the distilled water, with very dilute whisky. You drink 1 shot-glass of the 100-proof whiskey. Repeat every 30 seconds. Last one standing wins. Since you're convinced that micro-doses are supposed to be so much more powerful, you'll surely take me up on the bet. And after you win the challenge, your next logical step will be to lobby to get the current alcohol tests for drunk-driving reversed, because the weaker the dosage, the stronger the effect. -- Walter Dnes Email users are divided into two classes; 1) Those who have effective spam-blocking 2) Those who wish they did -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jason-gaRZxGPHtpBxZtjKW1aY+1aTQe2KTcn/ at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 22 02:16:29 2003 From: jason-gaRZxGPHtpBxZtjKW1aY+1aTQe2KTcn/ at public.gmane.org (Jason Shein) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 21:16:29 -0500 Subject: mp3 server In-Reply-To: <001601c3c82e$22ff8dd0$0301a8c0-vAnPq90cUBg@public.gmane.org> References: <001601c3c82e$22ff8dd0$0301a8c0@amazon> Message-ID: <3FE653FD.7020300@pcsecurityonline.com> http://rimps.sourceforge.net Works great for me on SuSE 9.0 pro With rimps you can stream or download to the local machine. Search, edit tags, create playlists, add media, users etc all from the web interface. User access control as well ( so my kids don't delete the mp3's they are trying to play ) Teddy Mills wrote: > I am setting up a new RH9 system and it is blank ,except for.. > > Apache 1.329 > PHP 4.34 > MySQL 4.01 > > Im looking to make a MP3 music server. > Not a streaming server, just something to play some MP3s via Apache. > > Any recommendations? > Does someone have a working MP3 server? > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > teddy mills http://www.vger.ca > VGER directives...To collect...all that is collectable. To sell...all that > is saleable.To merchandise...all that is merchandisable. > > Family Guys Quagmire "allllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll right" > Capt Tenneal "LETS GO!" > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- " Eventually people tire of repairing broken Windows, And decide to replace them with something stronger" (o_ //\ Linux - The Choice Of A GNU Generation V_/_ Jason Shein Linux Registered User #281100 jason-gaRZxGPHtpBxZtjKW1aY+1aTQe2KTcn/@public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jzygmont-tEQKYFGiemxAYG7eUwYNkWD2FQJk+8+b at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 22 02:28:12 2003 From: jzygmont-tEQKYFGiemxAYG7eUwYNkWD2FQJk+8+b at public.gmane.org (Justin Zygmont) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 21:28:12 -0500 (EST) Subject: mp3 server In-Reply-To: <001601c3c82e$22ff8dd0$0301a8c0-vAnPq90cUBg@public.gmane.org> References: <001601c3c82e$22ff8dd0$0301a8c0@amazon> Message-ID: it should work ok, why not use apache 2? On Sun, 21 Dec 2003, Teddy Mills wrote: > I am setting up a new RH9 system and it is blank ,except for.. > > Apache 1.329 > PHP 4.34 > MySQL 4.01 > > Im looking to make a MP3 music server. > Not a streaming server, just something to play some MP3s via Apache. > > Any recommendations? > Does someone have a working MP3 server? > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > teddy mills http://www.vger.ca > VGER directives...To collect...all that is collectable. To sell...all that > is saleable.To merchandise...all that is merchandisable. > > Family Guys Quagmire "allllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll right" > Capt Tenneal "LETS GO!" > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From taavi-LbuTpDkqzNzXI80/IeQp7B2eb7JE58TQ at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 22 02:54:05 2003 From: taavi-LbuTpDkqzNzXI80/IeQp7B2eb7JE58TQ at public.gmane.org (Taavi Burns) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 19:54:05 -0700 Subject: C programming question In-Reply-To: <200312210934.28944.wildberger-iRg7kjdsKiH3fQ9qLvQP4Q@public.gmane.org> References: <200312191808.04306.skuznets@blueprint.org> <20031220045606.GA76466@idiom.novusordo.net> <200312210934.28944.wildberger@cogeco.ca> Message-ID: <20031222025405.GA55255@idiom.novusordo.net> On Sun, Dec 21, 2003 at 09:34:28AM -0500, John Wildberger wrote: > "Das gefingerpoken in den Gewerken is not for Dummkopfen and is verboten." :-) ACHTUNG Das Machine ist nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Is too easy schnappen der springwerk und blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitzensparken. Ist nicht fur gwerkin by das dumpkofen das rubbernecken sightseeren. Keepen der hands in der pockets, relaxen und watch all der blinkelights. -- taa The most critical and formative experiences are those provided to the developing child in the incubator of the family and, optimally, by a vital, invested community. --Bruce D. Perry /*eof*/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 22 03:05:31 2003 From: fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Fraser Campbell) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 22:05:31 -0500 Subject: VPN question (ssh) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200312212205.32024.fraser@wehave.net> On December 21, 2003 06:28 pm, Justin Zygmont wrote: > it had a lot to do with the original type of question. I was trying > dsniff lately, which is probably my favourite packet sniffer, and I see > that it uses a man in the middle technique and does infact support ssh > version 1. I'm suprised no one has tried to add more code of their own to > compromize ssh 3.x. I don't see how that can be stopped unless they use > kerberos maybe, I always thought man in the middle was probably the best > interception technique. AFAIK, man in the middle attacks against ssh work only if the end-user is behaving badly. Part of the ssh protocol (1 or 2) involves authenticating the server. The server has a private key readable only by root, it has a public key that a user caches in ~/.ssh/known_hosts (or for all users in /etc/ssh/known_hosts). I'm no expert on public-key crtypography but I believe (roughly speaking) it works like this: - client and server agree on a string to encrypt - server encrypts string using private key and sends result to client - client checks encrypted string against the public key in it's cache ... despite not knowing the server's private key, the client can definitively know whether the string was encrypted using the correct private key That is a very rough description and I'd like to be corrected if wrong. Regardless of my description, client has ability to know definitively that it's talking to a server that has the private key that is expected. So there are a few ways that security can be compromised: - server gets broken into and someone steals private key to use in man-in-the-middle attack (they need root access to steal your key so you have big problems here quite apart from ssh) - the end user doesn't verify the key properly - the end user ignores warnings of changed keys Second point is that if you want to ensure security then you must securely populate your known hosts file. ssh'ing to a server and having the client add the public key to your known_hosts is not secure ... you can't be sure that there isn't a "man in the middle". Third point is regarding users that ignore messages like ... @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ @ WARNING: REMOTE HOST IDENTIFICATION HAS CHANGED! @ @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ If the machine hasn't been reinstalled then you really need to question why it's key has changed and not trust the server until you find out why and verify the new key. -- Fraser Campbell http://www.wehave.net/ Georgetown, Ontario, Canada Debian GNU/Linux -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From taavi-LbuTpDkqzNzXI80/IeQp7B2eb7JE58TQ at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 22 03:09:39 2003 From: taavi-LbuTpDkqzNzXI80/IeQp7B2eb7JE58TQ at public.gmane.org (Taavi Burns) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 20:09:39 -0700 Subject: DVD Burning and Viewing In-Reply-To: References: <20031219095248.55772c81.jmyshrall@golden.net> <3FE358EC.5000802@truxtar.com> <20031219210741.GA63641@idiom.novusordo.net> Message-ID: <20031222030939.GB55255@idiom.novusordo.net> On Sat, Dec 20, 2003 at 05:28:33PM -0500, John Vetterli wrote: > On Fri, 19 Dec 2003, Taavi Burns wrote: > > using just the IDE driver. Your commandline starts to look something > > like this (yes, I have but one IDE channel, so hdb is my burner): > > cdrecord dev=ATAPI:/dev/hdb speed=24 image.iso > > Does this setup give you problems? I was under the impression that > putting the hard-drive and cd-burner on the same ide channel could lead to > buffer underrun errors, since the controller has problems dealing with > both devices in use at the same time. It's usually a bad idea for me to go thrashing the drive while burning, and while burning the hd performance is pretty sucky anyway. Oh, and when the drive is ejecting or accepting a new disk, or while finalising a burn, hd access is impossible, leading to the system locking up on very simple tasks, if they involve something such as swapping. Other than that, my drive has BurnProof and an 8MB buffer. It doesn't coaster easily. ;) The Duron 1GHz and 120GB HD is quite sufficient to keep things in line, unlike the days of the P-133 and 4GB drives. ;) -- taa Widespread ignorance of the intimate relationships between cultural belief systems, childrearing practices and the development of violent behaviors will doom any attempts to truly understand, and prevent, violence. --Bruce D. Perry /*eof*/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lloyd-fEEwcc3XMu8jODpR/OX0VQ at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 22 04:02:04 2003 From: lloyd-fEEwcc3XMu8jODpR/OX0VQ at public.gmane.org (Lloyd Budd) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 23:02:04 -0500 Subject: hardware appraisal In-Reply-To: <4221.216.138.194.32.1071854048.squirrel-16UnNR4aCrhlws70yGkXPA@public.gmane.org> References: <4221.216.138.194.32.1071854048.squirrel@www.beechtree.ca> Message-ID: <9A25EB14-3433-11D8-9E4F-0003931BD222@foolswisdom.com> reboot.on.ca provides charitable donation receipts when I drop off old hardware. Possibly they can assist with that dimension of your problem. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From blsonne-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 22 04:11:25 2003 From: blsonne-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Byron Sonne) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 23:11:25 -0500 Subject: Waaaay offtopic In-Reply-To: <200312212100.21758.fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org> References: <20031218014048.3b0a30c4.joehill@sympatico.ca> <200312180706.55676.fraser@wehave.net> <3FE5FD13.70903@rogers.com> <200312212100.21758.fraser@wehave.net> Message-ID: <3FE66EED.6060709@rogers.com> > It's nice to imagine but if a hospital's costs go down from reduced visits > they'll just find other way to spend their budget ... sure the secretaries > need $4,000 computers with flat-screen monitors ;-) You know, I'd try and contradict you but after working in the healthcare sector I can confirm that you are more spot on than you probably realize! -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From roulton623-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 22 04:13:58 2003 From: roulton623-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Stephen) Date: 21 Dec 2003 23:13:58 -0500 Subject: Hello Every One In-Reply-To: <20031219131725.52edb1c7.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <1071814309.2477.21.camel@CPE0080c6f2a89b-CM00003940c461.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com> <20031219051922.3502b5be.joehill@sympatico.ca> <2l0263$1ui70n@toip3.bellnexxia.net> <20031219131725.52edb1c7.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <1072066433.2101.13.camel@CPE0080c6f2a89b-CM00003940c461.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com> On Fri, 2003-12-19 at 13:17, JoeHill wrote: > On 19 Dec 2003 12:55:58 -0500 > Stephen Oulton wrote: > > > When I ran top it told me that from 5.1 to 6.6 percent of my CPU was > > being used. > > > > 85 programs were being used 81 were sleeping 2 were running and 2 were > > zombie. > > > > That doesn't seem like a lot. > > No, doesn't sound like anything is chewing up your CPU or memory. > > > Maybe it is because the install crashed and I had to make it work with > > my limited experience. I tried to install it 3 times and it crashed > > during install every time. > > > > I even formated the drive and tried a clean install and it still crashed > > on install. > > That is highly unusual. Don't get me wrong, I had my install of 9.2 hang on me > once, but I just restarted the install from scratch and all was well. > > I'm by no means the biggest expert on here, but I see two real possibilities: > > The installation is corrupted somehow. Maybe one or more of the ISO's were bad? > Hence the hideously bad experience on install...always check md5sums! > > md5sum filename.iso > > and compare it to what's on the Mandrake site. > > More likely though is some hardware issue, I'm thinkin' bad RAM. Come to think > of it, you never did mention how much RAM you have in that machine (you really > should have at the very least 128, but if you are running KDE or Gnome, those > can really chew up memory, so 256 is what I usually recommend). I would try > swapping out the RAM and see if the performance doesn't change. > > Also, right after you boot up, open a term and type: > > dmesg > dmesg.txt > > then open that text file in an editor and look for any errors, esp with regard > to memory. Thanks for your reply Joe When I booted the computer the memory test was 327680 KB OK This is the information from the dmesg file that refers to memory it doesn't seem to have any problems there. Linux version 2.4.21-0.13mdk (flepied-JAOzawC1ADxn+L6o72McsUEOCMrvLtNR at public.gmane.org) (gcc version 3.2.2 (Mandrake Linux 9.1 3.2.2-3mdk)) #1 Fri Mar 14 15:08:06 EST 2003 BIOS-provided physical RAM map: BIOS-e820: 0000000000000000 - 00000000000a0000 (usable) BIOS-e820: 00000000000f0000 - 0000000000100000 (reserved) BIOS-e820: 0000000000100000 - 0000000013ff0000 (usable) BIOS-e820: 0000000013ff0000 - 0000000013ff3000 (ACPI NVS) BIOS-e820: 0000000013ff3000 - 0000000014000000 (ACPI data) BIOS-e820: 00000000ffff0000 - 0000000100000000 (reserved) 319MB LOWMEM available. ACPI: have wakeup address 0xc0001000 On node 0 totalpages: 81904 zone(0): 4096 pages. zone(1): 77808 pages. zone(2): 0 pages. I skimmed through the rest of the file and it was only information about devices on the system. There were no error messages any where. I'm stumped I like Mandrake though and I will find out what is wrong. I tried the on line update yesterday and I had to re-install the system again. I guess I need to learn more before I start with the on line updates. The same thing happed this time as soon as it came to the summary part of the install the thing just stopped. I waited for two hours and it didn't start again. I had to reboot with the reset button and fix the file system. It does seem to be working better this time though. But there is still a big delay in the applications starting. Some times I wonder if they are going to start and click again and have two instances. I know this is new and there isn't much support for it and I like the idea that Microsoft didn't have a hand in it. Thanks To every one Stephen Oulton -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 22 04:25:28 2003 From: davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (David J Patrick) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 23:25:28 -0500 Subject: Waaaay offtopic In-Reply-To: <20031222020451.GA13608-Mb8sf/rG248@public.gmane.org> References: <3FE385FD.5000301@rogers.com> <3FE5E1AC.9000207@sympatico.ca> <20031222020451.GA13608@m450> Message-ID: <3FE67238.8080108@sympatico.ca> Walter Dnes wrote: >On Sun, Dec 21, 2003 at 01:08:44PM -0500, David J Patrick wrote > > > >>>You might want to read "Voodoo Science" by Dr. Robert Park or "A Demon >>>Haunted World", by Carl Sagan for further info. >>> >>> >>I think the practice you are slagging is actually "homeopathy". Yes, >>microdoses sound downright improbable, but I have to say that I have >>seen it used successfully countless times over the last 30 years. >>Just because we don't understand something doesn't always mean >>it's bogus. >> >> > > OK, here's a scientifically verifiable experiment. > Equipment > ========= > - 1 eye-dropper > - 1 stirring rod > - 2 shot glasses > - 2 1-imperial-gallon glass containers > - pour 1 imperial gallon of distilled water into 1 of the containers. > - pour 6 26-ers of 100-proof whisky into the 2nd container. > - take eye-dropper, grab 1 drop from the whisky container, and deposit > it into the distilled water > - stir the distilled water, and 1 drop of whisky, thoroughly > > Now comes the fun part. I'll drink 1 shot-glass of the distilled >water, with very dilute whisky. You drink 1 shot-glass of the 100-proof >whiskey. Repeat every 30 seconds. Last one standing wins. Since >you're convinced that micro-doses are supposed to be so much more >powerful, you'll surely take me up on the bet. And after you win the >challenge, your next logical step will be to lobby to get the current >alcohol tests for drunk-driving reversed, because the weaker the dosage, >the stronger the effect. > > > you _funny_ ! I thought you were actually going somewhere with that ! I read an intriguing book by *Richard** Mackarness that connected allergy and addiction. Perhaps amusingly, in your example the chap who drank the 100 proof, would only be fueling an alcoholic cycle, and the microdose recipe you suggested might even prove the key to breaking that cycle ! The book (a little of what you fancy) makes an interesting case. Much better that my current ramblings. *http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/index=books&field-author=Mackarness%2C%20Richard/102-8797807-1288938 so laugh all you want, but microdoses have their applications, you whiskey drinking wicked, wicked man ! and anyway; SHOW ME THE PENGUIN ! have you forgotten that linux and all of the sisters sacred open source are the ONLY IMPORTANT THINGS ! a tangent from wayyyyyyyy off off topic, pass the whiskey sheesh ! djp -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 22 04:30:47 2003 From: davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (David J Patrick) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 23:30:47 -0500 Subject: Waaaay offtopic In-Reply-To: <20031221205356.D7BE340B2-xzRQuAxiFLNWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org> References: <20031221205356.D7BE340B2@cbbrowne.com> Message-ID: <3FE67377.6090704@sympatico.ca> cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org wrote: >That was the opening I left in the first choice, namely that something >that is not being identified is being added in the water. > > so you did .. >The notion that our biology responds to chemicals that are not actually >present doesn't fit into what could make sense. > > I agree with you there, not actually present is _beyond_ micro. it's almost .. nonexistant .. spooky .. hey, d'ya suppose Joe's better yet ? ahhh .. ahhh .. ahhh HITLER !!! 'scuse me. djp -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From teddymills-VFlxZYho3OA at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 22 06:47:40 2003 From: teddymills-VFlxZYho3OA at public.gmane.org (Teddy Mills) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 01:47:40 -0500 Subject: What is wrong with the format of this URL Message-ID: <002c01c3c857$7f60dbf0$0301a8c0@amazon> http://192.168.1.9/songs/:80 What is wrong with the format of this URL? If I remove the port :80, it works. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Family Guys Quagmire "allllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll right" Capt Tenneal "LETS GO!" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 22 06:57:24 2003 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 01:57:24 -0500 Subject: What is wrong with the format of this URL In-Reply-To: <002c01c3c857$7f60dbf0$0301a8c0-vAnPq90cUBg@public.gmane.org> References: <002c01c3c857$7f60dbf0$0301a8c0@amazon> Message-ID: <20031222065724.GA8786@node1.opengeometry.net> On Mon, Dec 22, 2003 at 01:47:40AM -0500, Teddy Mills wrote: > http://192.168.1.9/songs/:80 > > What is wrong with the format of this URL? If I remove the port :80, it > works. http://host:port/... -- William Park, Open Geometry Consulting, Linux solution for data management and processing. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 22 11:11:09 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 06:11:09 -0500 Subject: What is wrong with the format of this URL In-Reply-To: <002c01c3c857$7f60dbf0$0301a8c0-vAnPq90cUBg@public.gmane.org> References: <002c01c3c857$7f60dbf0$0301a8c0@amazon> Message-ID: <20031222061109.0b03e027.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Mon, 22 Dec 2003 01:47:40 -0500 "Teddy Mills" wrote: > http://192.168.1.9/songs/:80 > > What is wrong with the format of this URL? If I remove the port :80, it > works. It's the combo of the / and the :80, a port number will only work as part of a network address, not as part of a directory location. It should be like this: 192.168.1.9:80/songs/ -- JoeHill ++ ICQ # 280779813 Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "There are three side effects of acid: enhanced long-term memory, decreased short-term memory, and I forget the third."-- Timothy Leary -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 22 11:39:07 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 06:39:07 -0500 Subject: Hello Every One In-Reply-To: <1072066433.2101.13.camel-dKL88l7hNfq+7LdUnWLbWeRNwQ1nxAZKTJmjD0f5kqEKu2YovVVDERgSKFK9O5hcLMHrShElKjA@public.gmane.org> References: <1071814309.2477.21.camel@CPE0080c6f2a89b-CM00003940c461.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com> <20031219051922.3502b5be.joehill@sympatico.ca> <2l0263$1ui70n@toip3.bellnexxia.net> <20031219131725.52edb1c7.joehill@sympatico.ca> <1072066433.2101.13.camel@CPE0080c6f2a89b-CM00003940c461.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com> Message-ID: <20031222063907.1da2b80b.joehill@sympatico.ca> On 21 Dec 2003 23:13:58 -0500 Stephen wrote: > I like Mandrake though and I will find out what is wrong. I tried the on > line update yesterday and I had to re-install the system again. I guess > I need to learn more before I start with the on line updates. nah, I think a lot of people are having that problem, which is why I haven't done an update recently. On the Mandrake lists (I would recommend joining) I've already seen at least 3 or 4 people who's system was hosed by an update, it is something to do with bad XFree86 update packages. Lemme guess, you couldn't get the graphical enviro up after the update, right? > The same thing happed this time as soon as it came to the summary part > of the install the thing just stopped. I waited for two hours and it > didn't start again. I had to reboot with the reset button and fix the > file system. It does seem to be working better this time though. Waitaminnit, the summary is where it's supposed to stop, unless I'm thinking of a completely different part. That's where you are supposed to configure X and/or any other hardware that hasn't been automatically configured by the installer, no? You have a list, and beside each item is a button which says "configured" or "not configured", etc. ? Beyond that, the only thing I can think of is, as I said before, you got a bad ISO in there. If you hadn't already just done a reinstall, I would recommend downloading the ISO's again, checking their md5sums, and burning fresh ones, but....sheesh, you've been through a lot already. You've either got the patience of a Saint, or you reeeeaaaaaally hate Windows ;-) -- JoeHill ++ ICQ # 280779813 Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "Such mistakes could make the Afghan people think ill of the coalition..." -- Bryan Hilferty, American Coalition Spokesman, on the murder of 9 innocent children by American attack planes in Afghanistan, Dec. 6, 2003 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From roulton623-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 22 12:51:52 2003 From: roulton623-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Stephen) Date: 22 Dec 2003 07:51:52 -0500 Subject: Hello Every One In-Reply-To: <20031222063907.1da2b80b.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <1071814309.2477.21.camel@CPE0080c6f2a89b-CM00003940c461.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com> <20031219051922.3502b5be.joehill@sympatico.ca> <2l0263$1ui70n@toip3.bellnexxia.net> <20031219131725.52edb1c7.joehill@sympatico.ca> <1072066433.2101.13.camel@CPE0080c6f2a89b-CM00003940c461.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com> <20031222063907.1da2b80b.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <1072097507.22167.2.camel@CPE0080c6f2a89b-CM00003940c461.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com> That is the part that didn't work. When it came to the summary all I got was a blank screen and it stayed that way for hours until I rebooted with the reset button. There were still two more items on the list after that. update and reboot > Waitaminnit, the summary is where it's supposed to stop, unless I'm thinking of > a completely different part. That's where you are supposed to configure X and/or > any other hardware that hasn't been automatically configured by the installer, > no? You have a list, and beside each item is a button which says "configured" or > "not configured", etc. ? > > Beyond that, the only thing I can think of is, as I said before, you got a bad > ISO in there. If you hadn't already just done a reinstall, I would recommend > downloading the ISO's again, checking their md5sums, and burning fresh ones, > but....sheesh, you've been through a lot already. You've either got the patience > of a Saint, or you reeeeaaaaaally hate Windows ;-) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From rgfranks-cmaem7PIVQT44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 22 13:57:36 2003 From: rgfranks-cmaem7PIVQT44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Greg Franks) Date: 22 Dec 2003 08:57:36 -0500 Subject: C programming question In-Reply-To: <200312210934.28944.wildberger-iRg7kjdsKiH3fQ9qLvQP4Q@public.gmane.org> References: <200312191808.04306.skuznets@blueprint.org> <20031220045606.GA76466@idiom.novusordo.net> <200312210934.28944.wildberger@cogeco.ca> Message-ID: >>>>> "John" == John Wildberger writes: John> I got interesting replies to my question on how to access John> physical memory. In summary: Yes, it can be done. No, it John> cannot be done. It is difficult. It is not easy. What John> comes to my mind is: "Das gefingerpoken in den Gewerken is... Two words: man mem (physical memory) (or man kmem (kernel virtual memory)). ..greg You have to be root to poke around. In the good ole days of Unix, the `ps' command actually opened /dev/kmem and looked at the bytes directly. -- __@ Greg Franks <| _~@ __O _`\<,_ Ottawa, Ontario, Canada |O\ -^\<;^\<, (*)/ (*) (*)--(*)%---/(*) "Where do you want to go today?" Outside. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From mr6re9-mI4xJ4qlgtBiLUuM0BA3LQ at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 22 14:28:11 2003 From: mr6re9-mI4xJ4qlgtBiLUuM0BA3LQ at public.gmane.org (GDHough) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 09:28:11 -0500 Subject: [xawtv and webcam looping] Message-ID: <200312220928.11989.mr6re9@execulink.com> In the last year we've had the auto vandalized twice and have been relieved of three bicycles. I've put motion lights and sound triggers and a new dog all around this little flat. Recently we've discovered irrefutable proof that the perpetrators may actually be from next door. I am building custom MountainBikes and need to know my items are safe in the home. My solution (since we're already being cased) was to do a little casing of my own. And without getting into a drawn out justification, this is what we've done. Since the suspects are young, male, jobless, social misfits, they have all freaking day to study our routines. They know when the kids are in school and we are at work. I have set up a Logitech QuickCam Pro 4000. The darn thing worked right out of the box. Using 'webcam', a part of xawtv I am able to grab images and ftp them to the webserver. I also archive the images locally and with mencoder, condense them into AVI's. The beauty of this setup is I can monitor our vulnerable backyard entry from any browser in near real-time (currently a 15 second grab). Unfortunately, the xawtv program 'webcam' does not do what it is supposed to do and my work-around is generating big logs and consuming too much cpu on the workstation. 1) webcam doesn't loop at all like it's supposed to. 2) SSH transfer option could not be performed without manually entering a password. I even set up all the authorized keys and it still prompts me for a passphrase - I suspect an 'expect' syntax error, but I at least feel more secure... 3) ProFtp works but again, webcam refuses to keep-alive the connection. My solution was to create a script and run it from CRON. Now in addition to the ftp logons and transfers in /var/log/messages, I'm getting gobs of mail from CRON. Has anyone had success with xawtv and the webcam looping utility? farmer6re9 -- Eating Crow is better with MyCrowSauce -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From wildberger-iRg7kjdsKiH3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 22 14:58:56 2003 From: wildberger-iRg7kjdsKiH3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (John Wildberger) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 09:58:56 -0500 Subject: C programming question In-Reply-To: References: <200312210934.28944.wildberger@cogeco.ca> Message-ID: <200312220958.56993.wildberger@cogeco.ca> On December 22, 2003 08:57 am, Greg Franks wrote: > Two words:> > man mem (physical memory) > (or man kmem (kernel virtual memory)). > ..greg > > You have to be root to poke around. In the good ole days of Unix, the > `ps' command actually opened /dev/kmem and looked at the bytes > directly. Could I ask you to expand on your two words a little bit by using the info in the man page in a concrete way, e.g show me how to access physical memory at address 0x200 to 0x205. Thanks, John -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 22 15:03:30 2003 From: fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Fraser Campbell) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 10:03:30 -0500 Subject: Hello Every One In-Reply-To: <1072066433.2101.13.camel-dKL88l7hNfq+7LdUnWLbWeRNwQ1nxAZKTJmjD0f5kqEKu2YovVVDERgSKFK9O5hcLMHrShElKjA@public.gmane.org> References: <1071814309.2477.21.camel@CPE0080c6f2a89b-CM00003940c461.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com> <20031219131725.52edb1c7.joehill@sympatico.ca> <1072066433.2101.13.camel@CPE0080c6f2a89b-CM00003940c461.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com> Message-ID: <200312221003.30980.fraser@wehave.net> On Sunday 21 December 2003 23:13, Stephen wrote: > When I booted the computer the memory test was 327680 KB OK Make a memtest86 floppy and have your computer run memory tests for a few hours ... the BIOS memory test is pretty much meaningless. -- Fraser Campbell http://www.wehave.net/ Georgetown, Ontario, Canada Debian GNU/Linux -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 22 16:08:49 2003 From: davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (David J Patrick) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 11:08:49 -0500 Subject: [xawtv and webcam looping] In-Reply-To: <200312220928.11989.mr6re9-mI4xJ4qlgtBiLUuM0BA3LQ@public.gmane.org> References: <200312220928.11989.mr6re9@execulink.com> Message-ID: <3FE71711.1020407@sympatico.ca> GDHough wrote: >In the last year we've had the auto vandalized twice and have been relieved of >three bicycles. I've put motion lights and sound triggers and a new dog all >around this little flat. Recently we've discovered irrefutable proof that the >perpetrators may actually be from next door. > >I am building custom MountainBikes and need to know my items are safe in the >home. My solution (since we're already being cased) was to do a little casing >of my own. And without getting into a drawn out justification, this is what >we've done. > >Since the suspects are young, male, jobless, social misfits, they have all >freaking day to study our routines. They know when the kids are in school and >we are at work. I have set up a Logitech QuickCam Pro 4000. The darn thing >worked right out of the box. Using 'webcam', a part of xawtv I am able to >grab images and ftp them to the webserver. I also archive the images locally >and with mencoder, condense them into AVI's. The beauty of this setup is I >can monitor our vulnerable backyard entry from any browser in near real-time >(currently a 15 second grab). Unfortunately, the xawtv program 'webcam' does >not do what it is supposed to do and my work-around is generating big logs >and consuming too much cpu on the workstation. > >1) webcam doesn't loop at all like it's supposed to. > >2) SSH transfer option could not be performed without manually entering a >password. I even set up all the authorized keys and it still prompts me for a >passphrase - I suspect an 'expect' syntax error, but I at least feel more >secure... > >3) ProFtp works but again, webcam refuses to keep-alive the connection. My >solution was to create a script and run it from CRON. Now in addition to the >ftp logons and transfers in /var/log/messages, I'm getting gobs of mail from >CRON. > >Has anyone had success with xawtv and the webcam looping utility? > >farmer6re9 > > Have you considered http://gspy.sourceforge.net/ ? gspy is designed for webcam based security and may offer fewer headaches YMMV djp -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lada-h8kxHjy+vg4AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 22 16:15:00 2003 From: lada-h8kxHjy+vg4AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ladislav Svatos) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 11:15:00 -0500 Subject: [xawtv and webcam looping] In-Reply-To: <200312220928.11989.mr6re9-mI4xJ4qlgtBiLUuM0BA3LQ@public.gmane.org> References: <200312220928.11989.mr6re9@execulink.com> Message-ID: <200312221115.01057.lada@agawa.com> > 2) SSH transfer option could not be performed without manually entering a > password. I even set up all the authorized keys and it still prompts me for > a passphrase - I suspect an 'expect' syntax error, but I at least feel more > secure... Use ssh-agent or keychain. More info at: http://www-106.ibm.com/developerworks/linux/library/l-keyc2/?open&l=252,t=grl,p=ossh2 > Lada -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 22 16:26:31 2003 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 11:26:31 -0500 Subject: Incredible frustration at Grub/linux! Message-ID: <3FE71B37.5050703@alteeve.com> Hi all, I have been -trying- to setup a server with a '/' filesystem of 'reiserfs' for later use under LVM and some HA software but I have been absolutely unable to get past the starting gate and on top of feeling flat out stupid I am also getting terribly frustrated. I want to do one, little simple thing - make a backup of '/' to another drive/partition and then reboot using it. It seems that absolutely no matter what I do, what file I edit or what I try to force the system (Fedora Core 1) INSISTS on using the original '/' (in this case '/dev/sda1'). I don't what the heck I am doing wrong but I am about to blow a gasket. I have never been so fsck'ing mad at Linux before. Why is it so damn hard to mount a different '/' partition?! Anyway, I am using Grub because it is the only boot loader available on Fedora. I have tried reading the docs and am doing so again after sending this to see if I missed something simple... Bah, if nothing else this is a rant that may help me cool down enough to find my problem. Sorry for the noise. Madison -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From emmajane-MHIYrZpDPrNWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 22 16:46:50 2003 From: emmajane-MHIYrZpDPrNWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Emma Jane Hogbin) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 11:46:50 -0500 Subject: Incredible frustration at Grub/linux! In-Reply-To: <3FE71B37.5050703-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <3FE71B37.5050703@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <20031222164650.GA1342@debian> I'm not a grub user, but maybe some of this will be useful? Random Googles show this: http://www.gnu.org/software/grub/grub-faq.html#q11 http://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2003/debian-user-200308/msg05498.html http://lists.sistina.com/pipermail/linux-lvm/2000-October/005259.html http://lists.sistina.com/pipermail/linux-lvm/2000-October/005260.html http://linux-sxs.org/distros/gentooinstall.html (see #5) http://smtp.openna.com/pipermail/openna-users/2003-September/000044.html http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/lvm.xml I'll stop now. Hopefully there's something useful in one of them. A few highlights include the following: IMPORTANT NOTE: if your *boot* partition is reiserfs, be sure to mount it with the "-o notail" option so GRUB gets properly installed. Make sure that "notail" ends up in your new /etc/fstab boot partition entry, too. 1. Install GRUB into the directory /boot/boot/grub instead of /boot/grub. This may sound ugly but should work fine. 2. Create a symbolic link before installing GRUB, like cd /boot && ln -s . boot. This works only if the filesystem of the boot partition supports symbolic links and GRUB supports the feature as well. 3. Install GRUB with the command install, to specify the paths of GRUB images explicitly. Here is an example: grub> root (hd0,1) grub> install /grub/stage1 d (hd0) /grub/stage2 p /grub/menu.lst -- Emma Jane Hogbin [[ 416 417 2868 ][ www.xtrinsic.com ]] -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 22 16:49:09 2003 From: fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Fraser Campbell) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 11:49:09 -0500 Subject: Incredible frustration at Grub/linux! In-Reply-To: <3FE71B37.5050703-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <3FE71B37.5050703@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <200312221149.09904.fraser@wehave.net> On Monday 22 December 2003 11:26, Madison Kelly wrote: > I want to do one, little simple thing - make a backup of '/' to > another drive/partition and then reboot using it. It seems that > absolutely no matter what I do, what file I edit or what I try to force > the system (Fedora Core 1) INSISTS on using the original '/' (in this > case '/dev/sda1'). I don't what the heck I am doing wrong but I am about > to blow a gasket. I have never been so fsck'ing mad at Linux before. Why > is it so damn hard to mount a different '/' partition?! Does fedora do have that irritating fstab that mounts filesystems by label instead of device? -- Fraser Campbell http://www.wehave.net/ Georgetown, Ontario, Canada Debian GNU/Linux -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From skuznets-WRMZ5ucGVl4BXFe83j6qeQ at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 22 16:50:35 2003 From: skuznets-WRMZ5ucGVl4BXFe83j6qeQ at public.gmane.org (Sergey Kuznetsov) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 11:50:35 -0500 Subject: Waaaay offtopic In-Reply-To: <3FE60339.1000100-F0u+EriZ6ihBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <3FE5FA17.9080903@rogers.com> <3FE60339.1000100@truxtar.com> Message-ID: <200312221150.35316.skuznets@blueprint.org> > Also, the combination of Vitamin C and Echinacea supplements work very > well to guard against the flu and common cold. Again, it's just > personal experience and that of others. > This combination works for me. I am using the combination of Vitamin C + Echinacea + Zinc + Golden Root + Ginseng mixed together. -- All the Best! ----------------- Sergey Kuznetsov Senior Software Developer Blueprint Initiative Samuel Lunenfeld Research Institute at Mount Sinai Hospital -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From anton-F0u+EriZ6ihBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 22 17:02:35 2003 From: anton-F0u+EriZ6ihBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Anton Markov) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 12:02:35 -0500 Subject: Incredible frustration at Grub/linux! In-Reply-To: <3FE71B37.5050703-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <3FE71B37.5050703@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <3FE723AB.4060304@truxtar.com> Hi, Do you have a separate /boot partition? GRUB uses the /boot/grub/menu.lst configuration file to build the boot menu. Open the file with some text editor, and find the entry for your kernel. It should look something like: title Red Hat Linux (2.4.20-24.9) root(hd0,5) kernel /vmlinuz-2.4.20-24.9 root=/dev/hda6 initrd /initrd-2.4.20-24.9.img make sure you are editting the right section for your current kernel. Actually, you should copy+paste the section and change the title (stuff in the "()") to something like "test" so if anything goes wrong you have your origional settings. Next, change the root(hdx,x) entry so it points to the partition containing your kernel. If you have a boot partition, then you probably don't need to change this (unless you are also trying to backup and test it), but otherwise it should point to your new root partition. The first x is the IDE physical drive ID (0->hda; although there are some strange issues that may change these mappings). The second x is the partition number. Change the root= in the "kernel" line to your new root partition. It is probably set to "LABEL=/" which will always point to your origional partition. Try replacing it with the real device (/dev/hdxx). Reboot and select the new entry at the prompt. If you encounter any more problems, can you please attach your menu.lst file and the output of: # /sbin/fdisk -l I hope this helps. Madison Kelly wrote: > Hi all, > > I have been -trying- to setup a server with a '/' filesystem of > 'reiserfs' for later use under LVM and some HA software but I have been > absolutely unable to get past the starting gate and on top of feeling > flat out stupid I am also getting terribly frustrated. > > I want to do one, little simple thing - make a backup of '/' to > another drive/partition and then reboot using it. It seems that > absolutely no matter what I do, what file I edit or what I try to force > the system (Fedora Core 1) INSISTS on using the original '/' (in this > case '/dev/sda1'). I don't what the heck I am doing wrong but I am about > to blow a gasket. I have never been so fsck'ing mad at Linux before. Why > is it so damn hard to mount a different '/' partition?! > > Anyway, I am using Grub because it is the only boot loader available > on Fedora. I have tried reading the docs and am doing so again after > sending this to see if I missed something simple... > > Bah, if nothing else this is a rant that may help me cool down enough > to find my problem. Sorry for the noise. > > Madison -- Anton Markov <("anton" + "@" + "truxtar" + "." + "com")> GnuPGP Key fingerprint = 5546 A6E2 1FFB 9BB8 15C3 CE34 46B7 8D93 3AD1 44B4 "The difference between insanity and genius is measured only by success." - Some bad guy from 007 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From sidney-3Kd7Tu4o6f/sBN0MCq728g at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 22 18:07:27 2003 From: sidney-3Kd7Tu4o6f/sBN0MCq728g at public.gmane.org (Sidney Shapiro) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 13:07:27 -0500 Subject: OT: Perl Help Message-ID: <00a201c3c8b6$80fa5b80$6401a8c0@main> Hi All, I recently bought a custom Perl script from a developer who did what I asked him to do. When I got the script, I realized it was not what I was looking for. It's a quite simple script, converting data from one database to another. I would like to add a simple web interface, something along the lines of click here to import, click here to process, click here to export. I don't have much money left for this project, but if anyone could help me or could recommend someone I could get this finished with reasonably, I would be very grateful. I think the majority of what I need could pretty much be boiler plate, its just a matter of making the script run from the web server instead of running locally via SSH tunnel. Thank you very much, Sidney Sidney-3Kd7Tu4o6f/sBN0MCq728g at public.gmane.org 416 782 2761 (h) 416 835 2761 (c) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 22 18:49:15 2003 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 13:49:15 -0500 Subject: Incredible frustration at Grub/linux! In-Reply-To: <3FE71B37.5050703-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <3FE71B37.5050703@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <20031222184915.GA301@node1.opengeometry.net> On Mon, Dec 22, 2003 at 11:26:31AM -0500, Madison Kelly wrote: > Hi all, > > I have been -trying- to setup a server with a '/' filesystem of > 'reiserfs' for later use under LVM and some HA software but I have been > absolutely unable to get past the starting gate and on top of feeling > flat out stupid I am also getting terribly frustrated. > > I want to do one, little simple thing - make a backup of '/' to > another drive/partition and then reboot using it. It seems that > absolutely no matter what I do, what file I edit or what I try to force > the system (Fedora Core 1) INSISTS on using the original '/' (in this > case '/dev/sda1'). I don't what the heck I am doing wrong but I am about > to blow a gasket. I have never been so fsck'ing mad at Linux before. Why > is it so damn hard to mount a different '/' partition?! I assume backup went okey, and you're trying to boot from /dev/sdb1 (eg) instead of original /dev/sda1. 1. Locate grub.conf (or, whatever that is in grub) and search for root=/dev/sda1 and change it to '/dev/sdb1'. Then, write to MBR. 2. When you choose kernel from 'boot:' prompt (or, whatever), add kernel parameter as usual, ie. linux root=/dev/sdb1 3. Or, as last resort, write '/dev/sdb1' right into the kernel, using rdev vmlinuz /dev/sdb1 > > Anyway, I am using Grub because it is the only boot loader available > on Fedora. I have tried reading the docs and am doing so again after > sending this to see if I missed something simple... > > Bah, if nothing else this is a rant that may help me cool down enough > to find my problem. Sorry for the noise. > > Madison > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- William Park, Open Geometry Consulting, Linux solution for data management and processing. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jzygmont-tEQKYFGiemxAYG7eUwYNkWD2FQJk+8+b at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 22 20:51:21 2003 From: jzygmont-tEQKYFGiemxAYG7eUwYNkWD2FQJk+8+b at public.gmane.org (Justin Zygmont) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 15:51:21 -0500 (EST) Subject: Incredible frustration at Grub/linux! In-Reply-To: <3FE71B37.5050703-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <3FE71B37.5050703@alteeve.com> Message-ID: I do this all the time, just the other day in fact, with the drive you gave me. I image drive to drive andthen grub just needs to get reinstalled, then it should work. type: grub then at the grub prompt type: root (hd0,0) find /boot/grub/stage1 setup (hd0) quit of course substituting 0,0 for your correct drive/partition. On Mon, 22 Dec 2003, Madison Kelly wrote: > Hi all, > > I have been -trying- to setup a server with a '/' filesystem of > 'reiserfs' for later use under LVM and some HA software but I have been > absolutely unable to get past the starting gate and on top of feeling > flat out stupid I am also getting terribly frustrated. > > I want to do one, little simple thing - make a backup of '/' to > another drive/partition and then reboot using it. It seems that > absolutely no matter what I do, what file I edit or what I try to force > the system (Fedora Core 1) INSISTS on using the original '/' (in this > case '/dev/sda1'). I don't what the heck I am doing wrong but I am about > to blow a gasket. I have never been so fsck'ing mad at Linux before. Why > is it so damn hard to mount a different '/' partition?! > > Anyway, I am using Grub because it is the only boot loader available > on Fedora. I have tried reading the docs and am doing so again after > sending this to see if I missed something simple... > > Bah, if nothing else this is a rant that may help me cool down enough > to find my problem. Sorry for the noise. > > Madison > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 22 23:20:44 2003 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 18:20:44 -0500 Subject: Waaaay offtopic In-Reply-To: <200312221150.35316.skuznets-WRMZ5ucGVl4BXFe83j6qeQ@public.gmane.org> References: <3FE5FA17.9080903@rogers.com> <3FE60339.1000100@truxtar.com> <200312221150.35316.skuznets@blueprint.org> Message-ID: <3FE77C4C.3010207@rogers.com> Sergey Kuznetsov wrote: >>Also, the combination of Vitamin C and Echinacea supplements work very >>well to guard against the flu and common cold. Again, it's just >>personal experience and that of others. >> > > > This combination works for me. I am using the combination of Vitamin C + > Echinacea + Zinc + Golden Root + Ginseng mixed together. > Once again, how do you know it works??? How do you know you would have had a cold or flu, if you hadn't taken that stuff? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From rgfranks-cmaem7PIVQT44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 23 03:19:03 2003 From: rgfranks-cmaem7PIVQT44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Greg Franks) Date: 22 Dec 2003 22:19:03 -0500 Subject: C programming question In-Reply-To: <200312220958.56993.wildberger-iRg7kjdsKiH3fQ9qLvQP4Q@public.gmane.org> References: <200312210934.28944.wildberger@cogeco.ca> <200312220958.56993.wildberger@cogeco.ca> Message-ID: >>>>> "John" == John Wildberger writes: John> Could I ask you to expand on your two words a little bit by John> using the info in the man page in a concrete way, e.g show John> me how to access physical memory at address 0x200 to 0x205. John> Thanks, John With all due respect, are you really sure that you know what you are doing and or what you want? You must be root to run this. *** Writing to /dev/mem will probably crash and or corrupt your system. *** You can use mmap too. /* mem.c -- Greg Franks Mon Dec 22 2003 * * $Log$ */ #ifndef lint static char *rcsid = "$Header$"; #endif #include #include #include #include #include main() { int fd = open( "/dev/mem", O_RDONLY ); if ( fd < 0 ) { perror( "Cannot open /dev/mem: " ); exit( 1 ); } else { off_t offset = lseek( fd, 0x10, SEEK_SET ); if ( offset == (off_t)-1 ) { perror( "Seek: " ); exit( 1 ); } else { long x; ssize_t size = read( fd, &x, 4 ); if ( size == -1 ) { perror( "Read: " ); exit( 1 ); } fprintf( stderr, "Offset 10 is %x\n", x ); } } exit ( 0 ); } % sudo ./a.out Offset 10 is f000ef6f For the lazy, try: % sudo od -x -N 100 /dev/mem 0000000 0001 0000 ef6f f000 e2c3 f000 ef6f f000 0000020 ef6f f000 ff54 f000 8008 f000 ef6f f000 0000040 fea5 f000 e987 f000 ef6f f000 ef6f f000 0000060 ef6f f000 ef6f f000 ef57 f000 ef6f f000 0000100 10fa c000 f84d f000 f841 f000 aa9c f000 0000120 e739 f000 f859 f000 e82e f000 efd2 f000 0000140 e7a4 f000 -- __@ Greg Franks <| _~@ __O _`\<,_ Ottawa, Ontario, Canada |O\ -^\<;^\<, (*)/ (*) (*)--(*)%---/(*) "Where do you want to go today?" Outside. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jzygmont-tEQKYFGiemxAYG7eUwYNkWD2FQJk+8+b at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 23 03:58:45 2003 From: jzygmont-tEQKYFGiemxAYG7eUwYNkWD2FQJk+8+b at public.gmane.org (Justin Zygmont) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 22:58:45 -0500 (EST) Subject: [xawtv and webcam looping] In-Reply-To: <200312221115.01057.lada-h8kxHjy+vg4AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <200312221115.01057.lada@agawa.com> Message-ID: what I don't like about this is that if someone gained access to your computer, they could gain access to the other computer without even having to supply a password. On Mon, 22 Dec 2003, Ladislav Svatos wrote: > > > 2) SSH transfer option could not be performed without manually entering a > > password. I even set up all the authorized keys and it still prompts me for > > a passphrase - I suspect an 'expect' syntax error, but I at least feel more > > secure... > > Use ssh-agent or keychain. More info at: > http://www-106.ibm.com/developerworks/linux/library/l-keyc2/?open&l=252,t=grl,p=ossh2 > > > > Lada > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From taavi-LbuTpDkqzNzXI80/IeQp7B2eb7JE58TQ at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 23 04:08:04 2003 From: taavi-LbuTpDkqzNzXI80/IeQp7B2eb7JE58TQ at public.gmane.org (Taavi Burns) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 21:08:04 -0700 Subject: [xawtv and webcam looping] In-Reply-To: References: <200312221115.01057.lada@agawa.com> Message-ID: <20031223040804.GA97019@idiom.novusordo.net> On Mon, Dec 22, 2003 at 10:58:45PM -0500, Justin Zygmont wrote: > what I don't like about this is that if someone gained access to your > computer, they could gain access to the other computer without even having > to supply a password. That'd be the point of the ssh-agent and/or keychain; to prevent trivial unauthorized use. Naturally if an authorized program gets compromised, you're screwed. > > Use ssh-agent or keychain. More info at: > > http://www-106.ibm.com/developerworks/linux/library/l-keyc2/?open&l=252,t=grl,p=ossh2 Do check the link. Daniel writes good stuff. -- taa People in the 1950s, were increasingly told by carefully designed mass media formulas who they were, what they should be, and how they could succeed. These formulas were not geared to the development of a sensitive human being. --R. Altschuler and N. Regush /*eof*/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From teddymills-VFlxZYho3OA at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 23 21:34:59 2003 From: teddymills-VFlxZYho3OA at public.gmane.org (Teddy Mills) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 16:34:59 -0500 Subject: Required DRAM 168 pin FPM 5V Message-ID: <003601c3c99c$9ea8f560$0301a8c0@amazon> Any one have this type of DRAM? I would post this to NNTP, but I dont have access to NNTP. Actually im kinda glad my ISP is not using bandwidth for NNTP. As I understand, USENET servers can be really bandwidth intensive. --------------------------------------------------------------- teddy mills http://www.vger.ca Family Guys Quagmire "allllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll right" Capt Tenneal "LETS GO!" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From wildberger-iRg7kjdsKiH3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 23 23:29:39 2003 From: wildberger-iRg7kjdsKiH3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (John Wildberger) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 18:29:39 -0500 Subject: C programming question In-Reply-To: References: <200312220958.56993.wildberger@cogeco.ca> Message-ID: <200312231829.39367.wildberger@cogeco.ca> On December 22, 2003 10:19 pm, Greg Franks wrote: > With all due respect, are you really sure that you know what you are > doing and or what you want? Well, most of the time I don't know what I am doing. However, for guys that are even more challenged I have converted your program to c++ and made a few changes to the effect that I can specify on the command line the memory location I want to look at. For instance to look at memory location 68 you have to type: ./mem 68 The result is: 2 bytes at offset 68 are: f84d Here is my modified version: /* mem.cpp * Original program 'mem.c' by Greg Franks Dec 22 2003 * modified, converted to C++ and commented by J.Wildberger * execute with: ./mem + arg (memloc in decimal number) * compile with: c++ -o mem mem.cpp */ #include #include //required for O_RDONLY #include //required for lseek #include //required for setbase using namespace std; int main(int argc, char *argv[]) { if (argc != 2) { cout < References: <200312220958.56993.wildberger@cogeco.ca> <200312231829.39367.wildberger@cogeco.ca> Message-ID: John Wildberger writes: > changes to the effect that I can specify on the command line the memory > location I want to look at. > For instance to look at memory location 68 you have to type: > ./mem 68 > The result is: > 2 bytes at offset 68 are: f84d And this is better than: od -j 68 -N 2 -t x2 /dev/mem because??? ;) > short x; > ssize_t size = read( fd, &x, 4 ); Shorts aren't 4 bytes. Perhaps you should change the '4' to: sizeof(short) or sizeof(x) or even better, use mmap(2). Or even way better, read a book: Title: Understanding the Linux Kernel ISBN: 0-596-00213-0 It'll be much less painful. HTH, -- matthew rice starnix inc. phone: 905-771-0017 x242 thornhill, ontario, canada http://www.starnix.com professional linux services & products -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From wildberger-iRg7kjdsKiH3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 24 00:54:28 2003 From: wildberger-iRg7kjdsKiH3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (John Wildberger) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 19:54:28 -0500 Subject: C programming question In-Reply-To: References: <200312231829.39367.wildberger@cogeco.ca> Message-ID: <200312231954.28747.wildberger@cogeco.ca> On December 23, 2003 06:45 pm, Matthew Rice wrote: > And this is better than: > > od -j 68 -N 2 -t x2 /dev/mem > > because??? ;) You don't get an argument from me on this. :-) I actually used this to verify my program. It is short, but not as much educational as writing a C- program. > > > short x; > > ssize_t size = read( fd, &x, 4 ); > > Shorts aren't 4 bytes. Perhaps you should change the '4' to: > > sizeof(short) > or sizeof(x) It does not chane the result. I used the 'short' to get away from a printout with four bytes (high order first, followed by low order) which was confusing and not what was asked. > > or even better, use mmap(2). I will experiment with this as a next step in my education. > > Or even way better, read a book: Better, but a lot more cumbersome. In addition, it is very hard to find what one needs in specific cases. Just read some of the responses to my original question and you will see that my problem was not of a nature to bring forward answers from people that have read a lot of the pertinent books. > > Title: Understanding the Linux Kernel > ISBN: 0-596-00213-0 > > It'll be much less painful. Thans for your response, John -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From wildberger-iRg7kjdsKiH3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 24 02:31:59 2003 From: wildberger-iRg7kjdsKiH3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (John Wildberger) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 21:31:59 -0500 Subject: C programming question In-Reply-To: References: <200312231829.39367.wildberger@cogeco.ca> Message-ID: <200312232131.59898.wildberger@cogeco.ca> On December 23, 2003 06:45 pm, Matthew Rice wrote: > or even better, use mmap(2). I tried to read the man mmap(2) pages, but as always, these pages leave me in the dark. It would be so nice, if there would be a typical usage example included ( in all man pages!). These pages are designed for people who already know all the In's and outs, but are rather useless to anyone not yet familiar with their content. Am I alone in this assessment? John -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From roulton623-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 24 02:37:39 2003 From: roulton623-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Stephen) Date: 23 Dec 2003 21:37:39 -0500 Subject: Now I Know Message-ID: <1072233455.2646.6.camel@CPE0080c8ddf8f4-CM0010954a1036.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com> Thanks Joe I didn't know what the summary on the Mandrake 9.1 was supposed to do since I got a blank screen on that particular spot in the setup where my installation locked up. The question I have is there anything in that part of the setup that would cause a lag when starting applications. You said that is the area where you get to configure hardware that is found and add hardware that wasn't detected. Could there be any thing in there that could be configured wrong to cause my problem. If there is then my problem could be solved by configuring what ever it is that might be configured wrong. Thanks Stephen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From mr6re9-mI4xJ4qlgtBiLUuM0BA3LQ at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 24 05:18:06 2003 From: mr6re9-mI4xJ4qlgtBiLUuM0BA3LQ at public.gmane.org (GDHough) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 00:18:06 -0500 Subject: [xawtv and webcam looping] In-Reply-To: <3FE71711.1020407-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <200312220928.11989.mr6re9@execulink.com> <3FE71711.1020407@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <200312240018.06656.mr6re9@execulink.com> On Monday 22 December 2003 11:08, David J Patrick wrote: > Have you considered http://gspy.sourceforge.net/ ? > gspy is designed for webcam based security and may offer fewer headaches > YMMV > djp > This looks worth a test run. I am curious as to how it builds the MPEG's. I would like a format playable on winboxes. The way I make the movies now will only work with mplayer on Linux. Example from man mencoder: mencoder \*jpeg -mf on:fps=25 -o output.avi -ovc lavrc ...will put all the jpeg's in current directory into a single avi. Only thing is it isn't very 'seekable' (hourly only) I ain't sure yet how to use :vhq: and keyint= /etc. The odds of me catching a bike thief are slim compared to the risk I might learn something useful about my Linuxes. Thanks, farmer6re9 -- Eating Crow is better with MyCrowSauce -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 24 05:38:57 2003 From: davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (David J Patrick) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 00:38:57 -0500 Subject: [xawtv and webcam looping] In-Reply-To: <200312240018.06656.mr6re9-mI4xJ4qlgtBiLUuM0BA3LQ@public.gmane.org> References: <200312220928.11989.mr6re9@execulink.com> <3FE71711.1020407@sympatico.ca> <200312240018.06656.mr6re9@execulink.com> Message-ID: <3FE92671.7070108@sympatico.ca> GDHough wrote: >On Monday 22 December 2003 11:08, David J Patrick wrote: > > >>Have you considered http://gspy.sourceforge.net/ ? >>gspy is designed for webcam based security and may offer fewer headaches >>YMMV >>djp >> >> >> >This looks worth a test run. I am curious as to how it builds the MPEG's. I >would like a format playable on winboxes. The way I make the movies now will >only work with mplayer on Linux. Example from man mencoder: > >mencoder \*jpeg -mf on:fps=25 -o output.avi -ovc lavrc > >...will put all the jpeg's in current directory into a single avi. Only thing >is it isn't very 'seekable' (hourly only) I ain't sure yet how to use :vhq: >and keyint= /etc. > >The odds of me catching a bike thief are slim compared to the risk I might >learn something useful about my Linuxes. > >Thanks, >farmer6re9 > > One of the cool things is that the image stream (video) is comprised of only those frames that were different from the previous frame (motion) resulting in surprisingly small files. One less-than-cool thing is the seeming inactivity of the app, with nothing in the changelog for over a year.. djp -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 24 08:47:45 2003 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter L. Peres) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 10:47:45 +0200 (IST) Subject: C programming question In-Reply-To: <200312232131.59898.wildberger-iRg7kjdsKiH3fQ9qLvQP4Q@public.gmane.org> References: <200312231829.39367.wildberger@cogeco.ca> <200312232131.59898.wildberger@cogeco.ca> Message-ID: > I tried to read the man mmap(2) pages, but as always, these pages leave me in > the dark. It would be so nice, if there would be a typical usage example > included ( in all man pages!). > These pages are designed for people who already know all the In's and outs, > but are rather useless to anyone not yet familiar with their content. > Am I alone in this assessment? Ah, you came to my old conclusion that u*ix consists of four-letter commands with 100-page apologies ;-) Yes, you are right, up to a point. The manpages do not intend to tech you anything, they remind the programmer of all the details. For learning, use a book about programming or tutorials. Wrt mmap: #define SOMESIZE 1024 void *p; fd = open("file", O_RDONLY); p = mmap(NULL, (size_t)SOMESIZE, PROT_READ|PROT_WRITE, MAP_PRIVATE, (off_t) 1000); This maps 1024 bytes of "file", from offset 1000 in the file onwards, into a buffer of size 1024, which mmap allocates for you and returns in p. Any changes you make must be commited using a write() on fd (after reopening it O_RDWR). Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From wildberger-iRg7kjdsKiH3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 24 10:52:49 2003 From: wildberger-iRg7kjdsKiH3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (John Wildberger) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 05:52:49 -0500 Subject: C programming question In-Reply-To: References: <200312232131.59898.wildberger@cogeco.ca> Message-ID: <200312240552.49960.wildberger@cogeco.ca> On December 24, 2003 03:47 am, Peter L. Peres wrote: > Yes, you are right, up to a point. The manpages do not intend to tech you > anything, they remind the programmer of all the details. For learning, use > a book about programming or tutorials. The man mmap consists of 192 lines. Your sample code has 8 lines. It makes all the difference between useful and useless. Why cannot the good people who write these man pages not include such gems? Thanks, John -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From GHunter-kgJIzn72htc at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 24 12:11:16 2003 From: GHunter-kgJIzn72htc at public.gmane.org (Geoffrey Hunter) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 07:11:16 -0500 Subject: In the Dark with Midnight Commander In-Reply-To: References: <200312231829.39367.wildberger@cogeco.ca> <200312232131.59898.wildberger@cogeco.ca> Message-ID: <1072267876.3fe9826467824@webmail.yorku.ca> Echoing Peter Peres' concern about the inadequacy of Linux documentation: I switched to Linux in the summer of 2002 to regain control of how I compute; as a former DOS user I used to use Norton Commander as my window into my computer: it displayed the contents of two directories side by side, and the bottom box had a command-line prompt - commands typed there automatically looked for files in the selected left or right directory. With Norton I was in command: I could easily display any directory, and once selected easily (one-keystroke commands) select files and then copy, move, edit, and process them and see what you were doing the whole time - so I was induced to switch to Linux because it had "midnight commander" supposedly modeled after Norton Commander. Midnight commander (and linux generally) has been a big disappointment: I have yet to find any documentation (man pages or anything else), and unlike Norton Commander the command-line (bottom) box doesn't automatically look for files in the selected directory - I have to issue a cd command. Each box has round and square buttons at the bottom (turn green when clicked) but what they do/mean remains a mystery. Geoffrey Hunter York University, 4700 Keele Street Toronto, Ontario, Canada M3J1P3 email: GHunter-4mebg6r7xUY at public.gmane.org _______________________________________________ Quoting "Peter L. Peres" : > > > I tried to read the man mmap(2) pages, but as always, these pages leave me > in > > the dark. It would be so nice, if there would be a typical usage example > > included ( in all man pages!). > > These pages are designed for people who already know all the In's and > outs, > > but are rather useless to anyone not yet familiar with their content. > > Am I alone in this assessment? > > Ah, you came to my old conclusion that u*ix consists of four-letter > commands with 100-page apologies ;-) > > Yes, you are right, up to a point. The manpages do not intend to tech you > anything, they remind the programmer of all the details. For learning, use > a book about programming or tutorials. > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From a67582000-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 24 13:20:12 2003 From: a67582000-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Thomas Gibson) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 08:20:12 -0500 (EST) Subject: In the Dark with Midnight Commander In-Reply-To: <1072267876.3fe9826467824-2RFepEojUI0HvU8ER7tLtg@public.gmane.org> References: <1072267876.3fe9826467824@webmail.yorku.ca> Message-ID: <20031224132012.87286.qmail@web10304.mail.yahoo.com> --- Geoffrey Hunter wrote: > Echoing Peter Peres' concern about the inadequacy of > Linux documentation: > I switched to Linux in the summer of 2002 to regain > control of how I compute; > as a former DOS user I used to use Norton Commander > as my window into my > computer: it displayed the contents of two > directories side by side, and the > bottom box had a command-line prompt - commands > typed there automatically > looked for files in the selected left or right > directory. > With Norton I was in command: I could easily > display any directory, > and once selected easily (one-keystroke commands) > select files and then copy, > move, edit, and process them and see what you were > doing the whole time - > so I was induced to switch to Linux because it had > "midnight commander" > supposedly modeled after Norton Commander. > Midnight commander (and linux generally) has > been a big disappointment: > I have yet to find any documentation (man pages or > anything else), Hit F1 key? Maybe I am missing something? ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 24 13:40:37 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 08:40:37 -0500 Subject: Now I Know In-Reply-To: <1072233455.2646.6.camel-dKL88l7hNfpH6v5VrfkspvYiSqbNVN6i5r00ZSQe8kIKu2YovVVDERgSKFK9O5hcLMHrShElKjA@public.gmane.org> References: <1072233455.2646.6.camel@CPE0080c8ddf8f4-CM0010954a1036.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com> Message-ID: <20031224084037.1f489951.joehill@sympatico.ca> On 23 Dec 2003 21:37:39 -0500 Stephen wrote: > I didn't know what the summary on the Mandrake 9.1 was supposed to do > since I got a blank screen on that particular spot in the setup where my > installation locked up. > > The question I have is there anything in that part of the setup that > would cause a lag when starting applications. > > You said that is the area where you get to configure hardware that is > found and add hardware that wasn't detected. Could there be any thing in > there that could be configured wrong to cause my problem. > > If there is then my problem could be solved by configuring what ever it > is that might be configured wrong. My first guess, and it's a guess, would be the X configuration. If it doesn't properly configure your X server, with proper settings in XF86Config-4 for resolution and such, it *could* result in the slowness and lockups you are experiencing. One place to check for errors is /var/log/XFree86.0.log. IME, that is the only item that *never* gets config'd automatically on an install, with good reason. It wants you to decide on res, colour-depth, etc. What type of video card are you using, anyway? One sol'n I've seen for a few people using Nvidia cards is to turn off ACPI. This has gotten rid of some hard lockups and slow response in *some* cases. In /etc/lilo.conf, you will see the first section is for your default kernel entry, and there should be a line like this: append="devfs=mount hdc=ide-scsi acpi=off resume=/dev/hda5 splash=silent" yours might be different, but try setting acpi=off, then run "lilo", and reboot (all this as root of course). I'm still bettin' this is a hardware issue. Either you've got a bad stick of RAM or the vid card mem or GPU is on the fritz. As I think someone else on here pointed out, Linux can be a lot more demanding on hardware, or at least a lot less forgiving when it's not at it's best. Someone mentioned "memtest", did you investigate that? In any case, Happy Holidays and all that! -- JoeHill ++ ICQ # 280779813 Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." -- Hunter S. Thompson -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 24 13:48:52 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 08:48:52 -0500 Subject: Now I Know In-Reply-To: <1072233455.2646.6.camel-dKL88l7hNfpH6v5VrfkspvYiSqbNVN6i5r00ZSQe8kIKu2YovVVDERgSKFK9O5hcLMHrShElKjA@public.gmane.org> References: <1072233455.2646.6.camel@CPE0080c8ddf8f4-CM0010954a1036.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com> Message-ID: <20031224084852.08ff51aa.joehill@sympatico.ca> On 23 Dec 2003 21:37:39 -0500 Stephen wrote: > If there is then my problem could be solved by configuring what ever it > is that might be configured wrong. actually, now that I think of it, maybe send me your vid card type and the contents of your /etc/X11/XF86Config-4 and I'll see if there's anything that jumps out at me. -- JoeHill ++ ICQ # 280779813 Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "True communication is possible only between equals, because inferiors are more consistently rewarded for telling their superiors pleasant lies than for telling the truth."-- The SNAFU Principle -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From tim-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 24 17:41:03 2003 From: tim-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Tim Writer) Date: 24 Dec 2003 12:41:03 -0500 Subject: C programming question In-Reply-To: <200312231954.28747.wildberger-iRg7kjdsKiH3fQ9qLvQP4Q@public.gmane.org> References: <200312231829.39367.wildberger@cogeco.ca> <200312231954.28747.wildberger@cogeco.ca> Message-ID: John Wildberger writes: > On December 23, 2003 06:45 pm, Matthew Rice wrote: > > > And this is better than: > > > > od -j 68 -N 2 -t x2 /dev/mem > > > > because??? ;) > > You don't get an argument from me on this. :-) > I actually used this to verify my program. It is short, but not as much > educational as writing a C- program. > > > > > short x; > > > ssize_t size = read( fd, &x, 4 ); > > > > Shorts aren't 4 bytes. Perhaps you should change the '4' to: > > > > sizeof(short) > > or sizeof(x) > > It does not chane the result. It may not change the result with your specific example but the code still contains a bug. Think about what would happen if you wanted to use your program to read the last two bytes of /dev/mem. > I used the 'short' to get away from a printout with four bytes (high order > first, followed by low order) which was confusing and not what was asked. Matt was not objecting to your use of a short, he was objecting to you reading 4 bytes into a two byte quantity. In your example, this could overwrite valuable data on the stack (like the return address or other local variables) causing your program to crash, report incorrect results, or behave erratically. This is, of course, system and compiler dependent. In this case, you got away with it probably because gcc added two bytes of padding following the short. A better way to write this is to use C99's exact size types (from ): uint16_t x; ssize_t size = read(fd, &x, sizeof(x)); And then you can print it with: printf("%" PRIx16 "\n", x); -- tim writer starnix inc. 905.771.0017 ext. 225 thornhill, ontario, canada http://www.starnix.com professional linux services & products -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From tim-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 24 17:50:25 2003 From: tim-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Tim Writer) Date: 24 Dec 2003 12:50:25 -0500 Subject: C programming question In-Reply-To: <200312240552.49960.wildberger-iRg7kjdsKiH3fQ9qLvQP4Q@public.gmane.org> References: <200312232131.59898.wildberger@cogeco.ca> <200312240552.49960.wildberger@cogeco.ca> Message-ID: John Wildberger writes: > On December 24, 2003 03:47 am, Peter L. Peres wrote: > > > Yes, you are right, up to a point. The manpages do not intend to tech you > > anything, they remind the programmer of all the details. For learning, use > > a book about programming or tutorials. > > The man mmap consists of 192 lines. > Your sample code has 8 lines. It makes all the difference between useful and > useless. Why cannot the good people who write these man pages not include > such gems? Probably because Linux is a collaborative effort and most programmers (the people who best understand the functions needing documentation) usually prefer to program than write documentation. FWIW, the man pages of commercial versions of UNIX (such as Solaris), are often more complete than the corresponding Linux documentation. I find http://docs.sun.com useful in this regard. IIRC, The Open Group http://www.opengroup.org also has manual pages on-line. -- tim writer starnix inc. 905.771.0017 ext. 225 thornhill, ontario, canada http://www.starnix.com professional linux services & products -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From forolinux-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 24 17:53:33 2003 From: forolinux-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Martin C) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 09:53:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: In the Dark with Midnight Commander In-Reply-To: <1072267876.3fe9826467824-2RFepEojUI0HvU8ER7tLtg@public.gmane.org> References: <1072267876.3fe9826467824@webmail.yorku.ca> Message-ID: <20031224175333.76719.qmail@web14525.mail.yahoo.com> --- Geoffrey Hunter wrote: > Echoing Peter Peres' concern about the inadequacy of > Linux documentation: > I switched to Linux in the summer of 2002 to regain > control of how I compute; > as a former DOS user I used to use Norton Commander > as my window into my > computer: it displayed the contents of two > directories side by side, and the > bottom box had a command-line prompt - commands > typed there automatically > looked for files in the selected left or right > directory. > With Norton I was in command: I could easily > display any directory, > and once selected easily (one-keystroke commands) > select files and then copy, > move, edit, and process them and see what you were > doing the whole time - > so I was induced to switch to Linux because it had > "midnight commander" > supposedly modeled after Norton Commander. > Midnight commander (and linux generally) has > been a big disappointment: > I have yet to find any documentation (man pages or > anything else), and > unlike Norton Commander the command-line (bottom) > box doesn't automatically > look for files in the selected directory - I have to > issue a cd command. > Each box has round and square buttons at the bottom > (turn green when clicked) > but what they do/mean remains a mystery. Some things I've found googling: http://home.worldonline.co.za/~jctrembath/mctutorial.html http://www.suse.de/en/private/support/online_help/howto/mc/ http://www.linuxgazette.com/issue23/wkndmech_dec97/mc_article.html and the man mc http://man.he.net/?topic=mc§ion=all I should read some of them too... __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From mervc-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 24 18:01:22 2003 From: mervc-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org (Merv Curley) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 13:01:22 -0500 Subject: In the Dark with Midnight Commander In-Reply-To: <1072267876.3fe9826467824-2RFepEojUI0HvU8ER7tLtg@public.gmane.org> References: <1072267876.3fe9826467824@webmail.yorku.ca> Message-ID: <200312241301.22703.mervc@eol.ca> On December 24, 2003 07:11 am, Geoffrey Hunter wrote: box > doesn't automatically look for files in the selected directory - I have > to issue a cd command. Each box has round and square buttons at the > bottom (turn green when clicked) but what they do/mean remains a mystery. > Are you using the 'term window' version or the Gnome version? I find the version I use in a term window is very Norton 'look alike'. Merry, merry -- Merv Curley Scarborough, Ont Libranet Linux 2.8 KDE 3.1.4 KMail 1.5.4 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From paulmora-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 24 18:08:44 2003 From: paulmora-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Paul Mora) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 13:08:44 -0500 Subject: In the Dark with Midnight Commander In-Reply-To: <1072267876.3fe9826467824-2RFepEojUI0HvU8ER7tLtg@public.gmane.org> References: <200312231829.39367.wildberger@cogeco.ca> <200312232131.59898.wildberger@cogeco.ca> <1072267876.3fe9826467824@webmail.yorku.ca> Message-ID: <1072289324.11382.29.camel@stimpy.mora.ca> On Wed, 2003-12-24 at 07:11, Geoffrey Hunter wrote: > Midnight commander (and linux generally) has been a big disappointment: > I have yet to find any documentation (man pages or anything else), and > unlike Norton Commander the command-line (bottom) box doesn't automatically > look for files in the selected directory - I have to issue a cd command. > Each box has round and square buttons at the bottom (turn green when clicked) > but what they do/mean remains a mystery. There is lots of documentation, you just have to know where to look. Midnight Commander has some built-in help, accessible by typing F1. If that's not enough, there is a FAQ installed to answer common questions (I'm assuming a few things here... on my Red Hat Linux 9 system, when I installed the "mc" RPM, it came with a FAQ file located in /usr/share/doc/mc-/FAQ. If you use a different distro, they may or may not include it, but you can probably find it at www.tldp.org). As for not looking in the selected directory, that may have to do with the $PATH variable. The shell normally only looks for executable files in the $PATH. If you wish to look in your current directory as well, append a ":." on the end of the $PATH variable contents. Don't dismiss Linux too quickly. Keep in mind that it is a different operating system. It takes a bit of tinkering to learn all the nuances, but once you do, you will be surprised at it's power, stability, and quality. pm -- Paul Mora -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jzygmont-tEQKYFGiemxAYG7eUwYNkWD2FQJk+8+b at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 24 18:40:31 2003 From: jzygmont-tEQKYFGiemxAYG7eUwYNkWD2FQJk+8+b at public.gmane.org (Justin Zygmont) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 13:40:31 -0500 (EST) Subject: In the Dark with Midnight Commander In-Reply-To: <1072267876.3fe9826467824-2RFepEojUI0HvU8ER7tLtg@public.gmane.org> References: <1072267876.3fe9826467824@webmail.yorku.ca> Message-ID: i'm suprised that you are using an xterm to run mc in, myself being a dos user, I use the virtual consoles. I use mc everyday, and i'd be at a major loss without it. nc was a mystery to me when i first got it, at least we have searchable documentation these days on the internet. I'm suprised more people don't use mc, it was a major hit when it came out for dos, and the linux one is free. A quick google search will turn up lots of info on it. On Wed, 24 Dec 2003, Geoffrey Hunter wrote: > Echoing Peter Peres' concern about the inadequacy of Linux documentation: > I switched to Linux in the summer of 2002 to regain control of how I compute; > as a former DOS user I used to use Norton Commander as my window into my > computer: it displayed the contents of two directories side by side, and the > bottom box had a command-line prompt - commands typed there automatically > looked for files in the selected left or right directory. > With Norton I was in command: I could easily display any directory, > and once selected easily (one-keystroke commands) select files and then copy, > move, edit, and process them and see what you were doing the whole time - > so I was induced to switch to Linux because it had "midnight commander" > supposedly modeled after Norton Commander. > Midnight commander (and linux generally) has been a big disappointment: > I have yet to find any documentation (man pages or anything else), and > unlike Norton Commander the command-line (bottom) box doesn't automatically > look for files in the selected directory - I have to issue a cd command. > Each box has round and square buttons at the bottom (turn green when clicked) > but what they do/mean remains a mystery. > > Geoffrey Hunter > York University, 4700 Keele Street > Toronto, Ontario, Canada M3J1P3 > email: GHunter-4mebg6r7xUY at public.gmane.org > _______________________________________________ > Quoting "Peter L. Peres" : > > > > > I tried to read the man mmap(2) pages, but as always, these pages leave me > > in > > > the dark. It would be so nice, if there would be a typical usage example > > > included ( in all man pages!). > > > These pages are designed for people who already know all the In's and > > outs, > > > but are rather useless to anyone not yet familiar with their content. > > > Am I alone in this assessment? > > > > Ah, you came to my old conclusion that u*ix consists of four-letter > > commands with 100-page apologies ;-) > > > > Yes, you are right, up to a point. The manpages do not intend to tech you > > anything, they remind the programmer of all the details. For learning, use > > a book about programming or tutorials. > > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From tim-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 24 19:17:39 2003 From: tim-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Tim Writer) Date: 24 Dec 2003 14:17:39 -0500 Subject: In the Dark with Midnight Commander In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Justin Zygmont writes: > i'm suprised that you are using an xterm to run mc in, myself being a dos > user, I use the virtual consoles. I use mc everyday, and i'd be at a > major loss without it. nc was a mystery to me when i first got it, at > least we have searchable documentation these days on the internet. I'm > suprised more people don't use mc, it was a major hit when it came out for > dos, and the linux one is free. A quick google search will turn up lots > of info on it. nc was popular with DOS users because the DOS shell was pathetic and DOS offered so few utilities. mc is probably a nice interface for DOS users familiar with nc but doesn't offer much to anyone already comfortable with Linux/UNIX shells. Users with a Windows background, not (yet) comfortable with the Linux/UNIX command line, are probably most comfortable with graphical tools like Konqueror's file manager. -- tim writer starnix inc. 905.771.0017 ext. 225 thornhill, ontario, canada http://www.starnix.com professional linux services & products -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lloyd-fEEwcc3XMu8jODpR/OX0VQ at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 24 19:08:01 2003 From: lloyd-fEEwcc3XMu8jODpR/OX0VQ at public.gmane.org (Lloyd D Budd) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 14:08:01 -0500 Subject: FYI on updated RPMs for redhat 7.3 (see note Message-ID: <1072292881.2331.314.camel@localhost> -----Forwarded Message----- From: Chip Cuccio To: norlug-rpms-hjhRz81uzAkdnm+yROfE0A at public.gmane.org Subject: [NORLUG-RPMS] Updates for 12-24-2003 (and a note to all) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 11:32:54 -0600 <> NOTE: ----- I also maintain a large repository of Red Hat 7.3 RPMs, mainly because I manage quite a few 7.3 servers at work and my home "data center" - and statistics show that many other companies/people out there still use 7.3 (especially on the server platform) for its stability and quality. That being said, I have recently added a huge number of new custom RPMs to my Red Hat 7.3 repository. Included are updated versions of Perl, Python, Apache (both 1.3 and 2.0!), PHP, and many others. If you still run/own/manage/deploy Red Hat 7.3 machines, you should really check out my repository; Cheers... _______________________________________________ NORLUG-RPMS mailing list Get your custom Mandrake RPMs: http://norlug.org/~chipster/?rpms RPM Mailing list: http://norlug.org/mailman/listinfo/norlug-rpms -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 24 20:43:53 2003 From: henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org (Henry Spencer) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 15:43:53 -0500 (EST) Subject: FYI on updated RPMs for redhat 7.3 (see note In-Reply-To: <1072292881.2331.314.camel-bi+AKbBUZKZeoWH0uzbU5w@public.gmane.org> References: <1072292881.2331.314.camel@localhost> Message-ID: > ...and statistics show that many other companies/people out > there still use 7.3 (especially on the server platform) for its > stability and quality. Never mind 7.3, there are still a lot of people using 7.2 on servers. (7.3 made an unusually large number of changes for a .3 release, and not everyone liked it.) Henry Spencer henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 24 19:37:09 2003 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter L. Peres) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 21:37:09 +0200 (IST) Subject: In the Dark with Midnight Commander In-Reply-To: <1072267876.3fe9826467824-2RFepEojUI0HvU8ER7tLtg@public.gmane.org> References: <200312231829.39367.wildberger@cogeco.ca> <200312232131.59898.wildberger@cogeco.ca> <1072267876.3fe9826467824@webmail.yorku.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, 24 Dec 2003, Geoffrey Hunter wrote: > Echoing Peter Peres' concern about the inadequacy of Linux documentation: > I switched to Linux in the summer of 2002 to regain control of how I compute; > as a former DOS user I used to use Norton Commander as my window into my > computer: it displayed the contents of two directories side by side, and the > bottom box had a command-line prompt - commands typed there automatically > looked for files in the selected left or right directory. > With Norton I was in command: I could easily display any directory, > and once selected easily (one-keystroke commands) select files and then copy, > move, edit, and process them and see what you were doing the whole time - > so I was induced to switch to Linux because it had "midnight commander" > supposedly modeled after Norton Commander. > Midnight commander (and linux generally) has been a big disappointment: > I have yet to find any documentation (man pages or anything else), and > unlike Norton Commander the command-line (bottom) box doesn't automatically > look for files in the selected directory - I have to issue a cd command. > Each box has round and square buttons at the bottom (turn green when clicked) > but what they do/mean remains a mystery. Well, this post was probably answered already, but I'll do it anyway: mc has a manual page, I just double checked it. It is long. So is the Norton Commander documentation afair. I do not entirely understand what function does not work in your mc. mc is not a Norton Commander clone, it is a complete rewrite, and some things are different. I did not have any system shock when switching to MC from NC, the slash/backslash thing got me much harder than that. I just wrote up a cheat sheet and used it for a week, then I no longer needed it. As to documentation, the Linux user documents supplied with every installation (I mean the Linux User Guide) should get you started, and there are howtos for everything. The problem is you have to read them. If program P resembles some old favorite it does not mean that it works like it. It might ressemble it. If you read the docs you might find out ... The normal starting point is "Linux Installation and Getting Started" (one of the authors of this document is on this list), followed by faqs and howtos. There is no 'ONE' way to do things, each user has his or her own. Purchasing a book about basic Unix (Like 'Unix Primer' by Michael Joy I think - I had this book but I can't find it now) experienced as a user might be helpful if you intend to leave the well-oiled path of the gui. Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 24 20:48:33 2003 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter L. Peres) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 22:48:33 +0200 (IST) Subject: C programming question In-Reply-To: <200312240552.49960.wildberger-iRg7kjdsKiH3fQ9qLvQP4Q@public.gmane.org> References: <200312232131.59898.wildberger@cogeco.ca> <200312240552.49960.wildberger@cogeco.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, 24 Dec 2003, John Wildberger wrote: > On December 24, 2003 03:47 am, Peter L. Peres wrote: > > > Yes, you are right, up to a point. The manpages do not intend to tech you > > anything, they remind the programmer of all the details. For learning, use > > a book about programming or tutorials. > > The man mmap consists of 192 lines. > Your sample code has 8 lines. It makes all the difference between useful and > useless. Why cannot the good people who write these man pages not include Er, I wrote the code as an example against the manual page, *using* the manual page. I do not use mmap often (in fact, I avoid it). So much for gems (untested too). Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 24 20:58:54 2003 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter L. Peres) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 22:58:54 +0200 (IST) Subject: In the Dark with Midnight Commander In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 24 Dec 2003, Tim Writer wrote: > Linux/UNIX shells. Users with a Windows background, not (yet) comfortable > with the Linux/UNIX command line, are probably most comfortable with > graphical tools like Konqueror's file manager. Hmm I have not thought of that. It is natural for me to drop into a shell and start typing one-line pipes to do things. To the point where I find no use for kde (I started Linux with Slackware and no help line or internet access excepting a book - those were the times ...) but normal users probably feel as you say. Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 24 21:20:17 2003 From: fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Fraser Campbell) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 16:20:17 -0500 Subject: FYI on updated RPMs for redhat 7.3 (see note In-Reply-To: <1072292881.2331.314.camel-bi+AKbBUZKZeoWH0uzbU5w@public.gmane.org> References: <1072292881.2331.314.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <200312241620.17982.fraser@wehave.net> On Wednesday 24 December 2003 14:08, Lloyd D Budd wrote: > I also maintain a large repository of Red Hat 7.3 RPMs, mainly > because I manage quite a few 7.3 servers at work and my home "data > center" - and statistics show that many other companies/people out > there still use 7.3 (especially on the server platform) for its > stability and quality. There was a group of people claiming that they would support 7.3 I just can't find the link right now, perhaps it didn't get anywhere. Anyone know the project? Somewhat on the same topic are http://whiteboxlinux.org/ and http://www.progeny.com/products/transition/ > If you still run/own/manage/deploy Red Hat 7.3 machines, you should > really check out my repository; > Or run, don't walk, to http://www.debian.org/ and find out about an OS that's been offering stability and rock-solid upgrade procedures for 10 years. -- Fraser Campbell http://www.wehave.net/ Georgetown, Ontario, Canada Debian GNU/Linux -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From kcozens-qazKcTl6WRFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 24 21:16:15 2003 From: kcozens-qazKcTl6WRFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Kevin Cozens) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 16:16:15 -0500 Subject: In the Dark with Midnight Commander In-Reply-To: <1072267876.3fe9826467824-2RFepEojUI0HvU8ER7tLtg@public.gmane.org> References: <200312231829.39367.wildberger@cogeco.ca> <200312232131.59898.wildberger@cogeco.ca> <1072267876.3fe9826467824@webmail.yorku.ca> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20031224160745.0241aec0@mail.interlog.com> At 07:11 AM 12/24/2003 -0500, you wrote: >Echoing Peter Peres' concern about the inadequacy of Linux documentation: [snip] > Midnight commander (and linux generally) has been a big disappointment: >I have yet to find any documentation (man pages or anything else), and >unlike Norton Commander the command-line (bottom) box doesn't automatically >look for files in the selected directory - I have to issue a cd command. Windows software isn't much better at times (especially the freeware/shareware). If you need additional information about something installed on your Linux machine there are a couple of things you can do. (Using mc as an example...) Use the package management system to find out what files were installed on the machine. (ie. rpm -ql mc for a system using RPMs). This will list all the files installed for the package. Look for files in 'doc' directories (ie. /usr/doc, /usr/share/doc) and/or files ending in .htm or .html which may be web based documentation. The 'man' command is more for just a short description on what a given program will do and what command line options it will accept that affect its behaviour. If you need much more information on a program than that related to the command line then a man page is not what you want. At that point its time to check the Linux Documentation Project site or do a web search for more detailed information (assuming there isn't an official site for the program). Cheers! Kevin. (http://www.interlog.com/~kcozens/) Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172 |"What are we going to do today, Borg?" E-mail:kcozens at interlog dot com|"Same thing we always do, Pinkutus: Packet:ve3syb-XXPEJ3/fxIc at public.gmane.org#con.on.ca.na| Try to assimilate the world!" #include | -Pinkutus & the Borg -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 24 21:42:57 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 16:42:57 -0500 Subject: FYI on updated RPMs for redhat 7.3 (see note In-Reply-To: <200312241620.17982.fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org> References: <1072292881.2331.314.camel@localhost> <200312241620.17982.fraser@wehave.net> Message-ID: <20031224164257.68c8f3da.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Wed, 24 Dec 2003 16:20:17 -0500 Fraser Campbell wrote: > There was a group of people claiming that they would support 7.3 I just can't > find the link right now, perhaps it didn't get anywhere. Anyone know the > project? I believe that was Progeny, the same people who are porting Anaconda for Debian. http://arstechnica.com/etc/linux/2003/linux.ars-12092003.html -- JoeHill ++ ICQ # 280779813 Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "You tell me it's the institution; Well you know, you better free your mind instead..."-- John Lennon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 24 21:51:23 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 16:51:23 -0500 Subject: FYI on updated RPMs for redhat 7.3 (see note In-Reply-To: <200312241620.17982.fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org> References: <1072292881.2331.314.camel@localhost> <200312241620.17982.fraser@wehave.net> Message-ID: <20031224165123.53e81e78.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Wed, 24 Dec 2003 16:20:17 -0500 Fraser Campbell wrote: > Or run, don't walk, to http://www.debian.org/ and find out about an OS that's > been offering stability and rock-solid upgrade procedures for 10 years. It's getting more tempting. Mandrake 9.2 has *not* been very stable. Not to the point of something like XP, but not what I was used to with 9.1. However, today for example, I upgraded the kernel: urpmi --update kernel urpmi --update kernel-source then run the NVIDIA installer, and boom I'm up again, with LILO configured automagically. I'm hoping the new kernel (2.4.22-21) will prove more stable, but if it doesn't, is apt similar in it's "user friendliness"? Like when I update Apache, it's not going to require me to reconfigure, apt-get does the necessary fiddly bits for me? I don't mind having to learn a bit more about the guts of my system, quite the contrary, but I'm not looking for *too* much of a leap, like Slack or Gentoo. Just curious. Merry Christmas all! -- JoeHill ++ ICQ # 280779813 Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "There are three side effects of acid: enhanced long-term memory, decreased short-term memory, and I forget the third."-- Timothy Leary -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From mervc-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 25 03:28:26 2003 From: mervc-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org (Merv Curley) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 22:28:26 -0500 Subject: In the Dark with Midnight Commander In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200312242228.26286.mervc@eol.ca> On December 24, 2003 01:40 pm, Justin Zygmont wrote: > i'm suprised that you are using an xterm to run mc in, myself being a dos > user, I use the virtual consoles. I use mc everyday, and i'd be at a > major loss without it. Well in an xterm one can run a much larger mc and see more of the bigger directories. Why change to a virtual console when the xterm ones work so well. Unless of course you don't run X and live in console mode. The years I used OS/2 were made easier with Dircopy, a Norton clone. But it wasn't cheap. I went from an 8 bit computer to a 386 with OS/2 as my first O.S. DOS and Win 3.10 were on the harddisk but I didn't like them since they were too restrictive after my years with OS-9 on the 8 biter, [ the real OS-9 not the Mac one ]. I never used Norton. I forget what distro I bought years ago that didn't include mc and I had the devil of a time getting the source and some lib that it needed. Everyone else before and after included it. It is so easy to copy, move files, change permissions etc, that it is my basic tool. Merry, merry -- Merv Curley Scarborough, Ont Libranet Linux 2.8 KDE 3.1.4 KMail 1.5.4 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lloyd-fEEwcc3XMu8jODpR/OX0VQ at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 25 05:26:26 2003 From: lloyd-fEEwcc3XMu8jODpR/OX0VQ at public.gmane.org (Lloyd D Budd) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2003 00:26:26 -0500 Subject: urpmi and apt-get In-Reply-To: <20031224165123.53e81e78.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <1072292881.2331.314.camel@localhost> <200312241620.17982.fraser@wehave.net> <20031224165123.53e81e78.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <1072329985.13755.4.camel@localhost> On Wed, 2003-12-24 at 16:51, JoeHill wrote: > On Wed, 24 Dec 2003 16:20:17 -0500 > Fraser Campbell wrote: > However, today for example, I upgraded the kernel: > > urpmi --update kernel > > urpmi --update kernel-source > > then run the NVIDIA installer, and boom I'm up again, with LILO configured > automagically. I'm hoping the new kernel (2.4.22-21) will prove more stable, but > if it doesn't, is apt similar in it's "user friendliness"? apt-get is @ least as friendly. > Like when I update > Apache, it's not going to require me to reconfigure, apt-get does the necessary > fiddly bits for me? It shouln't. > I don't mind having to learn a bit more about the guts of my > system, quite the contrary, but I'm not looking for *too* much of a leap, like > Slack or Gentoo. The leap to Debian is no smaller than to Slack or Gentoo. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 25 15:12:06 2003 From: joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2003 10:12:06 -0500 Subject: urpmi and apt-get In-Reply-To: <1072329985.13755.4.camel-bi+AKbBUZKZeoWH0uzbU5w@public.gmane.org> References: <1072292881.2331.314.camel@localhost> <200312241620.17982.fraser@wehave.net> <20031224165123.53e81e78.joehill@sympatico.ca> <1072329985.13755.4.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <20031225101206.214c8b28.joehill@sympatico.ca> On Thu, 25 Dec 2003 00:26:26 -0500 Lloyd D Budd wrote: > > However, today for example, I upgraded the kernel: > > > > urpmi --update kernel > > > > urpmi --update kernel-source > > > > then run the NVIDIA installer, and boom I'm up again, with LILO configured > > automagically. I'm hoping the new kernel (2.4.22-21) will prove more stable, > > but > > if it doesn't, is apt similar in it's "user friendliness"? > > apt-get is @ least as friendly. > > > Like when I update > > Apache, it's not going to require me to reconfigure, apt-get does the > > necessary > > fiddly bits for me? > It shouln't. > > > > I don't mind having to learn a bit more about the guts of my > > system, quite the contrary, but I'm not looking for *too* much of a leap, > > like > > Slack or Gentoo. > > The leap to Debian is no smaller than to Slack or Gentoo. Really? From what I've seen of people's experience with those two on other forums, it can be a real long hard road to getting a fully functioning system. As long as I can get CD burning and MPlayer workin', I'm happy. If you mean GUI config tools, I don't really use all those GUI tools that come with Mandrake anyway, I'm much more comfy at the CLI with configuration, so I can see what's going on in detail. The main thing I'm looking for is great package management and stability. I miss the old MDK 9.1 days, uptimes of 2 weeks or more were not unheard of... :-( -- JoeHill ++ ICQ # 280779813 Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "Athens built the Acropolis. Corinth was a commercial city, interested in purely materialistic things. Today we admire Athens, visit it, preserve the old temples, yet we hardly ever set foot in Corinth."-- Dr. Harold Urey, Nobel Laureate in chemistry -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From mr6re9-mI4xJ4qlgtBiLUuM0BA3LQ at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 25 16:28:02 2003 From: mr6re9-mI4xJ4qlgtBiLUuM0BA3LQ at public.gmane.org (GDHough) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2003 11:28:02 -0500 Subject: [xawtv and webcam looping] In-Reply-To: <3FE92671.7070108-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <200312220928.11989.mr6re9@execulink.com> <200312240018.06656.mr6re9@execulink.com> <3FE92671.7070108@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <200312251128.02175.mr6re9@execulink.com> On Wednesday 24 December 2003 00:38, David J Patrick wrote: > GDHough wrote: > >On Monday 22 December 2003 11:08, David J Patrick wrote: > >>Have you considered http://gspy.sourceforge.net/ ? > >>gspy is designed for webcam based security and may offer fewer headaches Maybe, let's see... > >>YMMV > >>djp > > > >This looks worth a test run. I am curious as to how it builds the MPEG's. > > I would like a format playable on winboxes. The way I make the movies now > > will only work with mplayer on Linux. Example from man mencoder: > > > >mencoder \*jpeg -mf on:fps=25 -o output.avi -ovc lavrc > > > >...will put all the jpeg's in current directory into a single avi. Only > > thing is it isn't very 'seekable' (hourly only) I ain't sure yet how to > > use :vhq: and keyint= /etc. > > > >The odds of me catching a bike thief are slim compared to the risk I might > >learn something useful about my Linuxes. > > > >Thanks, > >farmer6re9 > > One of the cool things is that the image stream (video) is comprised of > only those frames that were different from the previous frame (motion) > resulting in surprisingly small files. It's too bad webcam doesn't loop, it also has the option TRIGGER = 1 for image comparison. > One less-than-cool thing is the seeming inactivity of the app, > with nothing in the changelog for over a year.. I won't have that problem with the puppy... > djp > Looking at this it is perfect for what I need. I just don't have the experience to build it. Even after I installed automake and autoconf it still poops out although very informatively so... V Please use AM_GNU_GETTEXT([external]) in order to cause autoconfiguration to look for an external libintl. Please create po/Makevars from the template in po/Makevars.template. You can then remove po/Makevars.template. Please run 'automake m4/Makefile' to create m4/Makefile.in Please run 'aclocal -I m4' to regenerate the aclocal.m4 file. You need aclocal from GNU automake 1.5 (or newer) to do this. Then run 'autoconf' to regenerate the configure file. Please remove intl/Makefile from the AC_OUTPUT or AC_CONFIG_FILES invocation in the configure.in file. You will also need config.guess and config.sub, which you can get from ftp://ftp.gnu.org/pub/gnu/config/. You might also want to copy the convenience header file gettext.h from the /usr/share/gettext directory into your package. It is a wrapper around that implements the configure --disable-nls option. Press Return to acknowledge the previous 7 paragraphs. Making ./aclocal.m4 writable ... Running aclocal -I macros ... aclocal: configure.in: 17: macro `AM_PATH_GTK' not found in library Running autoheader... WARNING: Using auxiliary files such as `acconfig.h', `config.h.bot' WARNING: and `config.h.top', to define templates for `config.h.in' WARNING: is deprecated and discouraged. WARNING: Using the third argument of `AC_DEFINE' and WARNING: `AC_DEFINE_UNQUOTED' allows to define a template without WARNING: `acconfig.h': WARNING: AC_DEFINE([NEED_MAIN], 1, WARNING: [Define if a function `main' is needed.]) WARNING: More sophisticated templates can also be produced, see the WARNING: documentation. Running automake --gnu ... configure.in:4: your implementation of AM_INIT_AUTOMAKE comes from an configure.in:4: old Automake version. You should recreate aclocal.m4 configure.in:4: with aclocal and run automake again. configure.in: installing `./install-sh' configure.in: installing `./missing' aclocal.m4:1143: installing `./config.guess' aclocal.m4:1143: installing `./config.sub' Makefile.am: installing `./INSTALL' Makefile.am:3: AM_GNU_GETTEXT used but `intl' not in SUBDIRS src/Makefile.am: installing `./depcomp' automake: src/Makefile.am: Assembler source seen but `CCAS' not defined in `configure.in' automake: src/Makefile.am: Assembler source seen but `CCASFLAGS' not defined in `configure.in' /usr/share/automake-1.6/am/depend2.am: AMDEP does not appear in AM_CONDITIONAL /usr/share/automake-1.6/am/depend2.am: AMDEP does not appear in AM_CONDITIONAL /usr/share/automake-1.6/am/depend2.am: AMDEP does not appear in AM_CONDITIONAL /usr/share/automake-1.6/am/lang-compile.am: AMDEP does not appear in AM_CONDITIONAL Makefile.am:3: AM_GNU_GETTEXT used but `intl' not in SUBDIRS automake: src/Makefile.am: Assembler source seen but `CCAS' not defined in `configure.in' automake: src/Makefile.am: Assembler source seen but `CCASFLAGS' not defined in `configure.in' /usr/share/automake-1.6/am/depend2.am: AMDEP does not appear in AM_CONDITIONAL /usr/share/automake-1.6/am/depend2.am: AMDEP does not appear in AM_CONDITIONAL /usr/share/automake-1.6/am/depend2.am: AMDEP does not appear in AM_CONDITIONAL /usr/share/automake-1.6/am/lang-compile.am: AMDEP does not appear in AM_CONDITIONAL Running autoconf ... Running ./configure --enable-maintainer-mode --enable-compile-warnings ... checking for a BSD-compatible install... /usr/bin/install -c checking whether build environment is sane... yes checking whether make sets $(MAKE)... yes checking for working aclocal... found checking for working autoconf... found checking for working automake... found checking for working autoheader... found checking for working makeinfo... missing checking for gnome-config... no checking for gnomeConf.sh file in /usr/local/lib... not found configure: error: Could not find the gnomeConf.sh file that is generated by gnome-libs install I guess the first thing I'll need to do is figure out the what and Y4's of: AM_GNU_GETTEXT([external]) Thank You and Merry Christmas Everyone, farmer6re9 -- Eating Crow is better with MyCrowSauce -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From mervc-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 25 20:34:11 2003 From: mervc-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org (Merv Curley) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2003 15:34:11 -0500 Subject: urpmi and apt-get In-Reply-To: <20031225101206.214c8b28.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <1072292881.2331.314.camel@localhost> <1072329985.13755.4.camel@localhost> <20031225101206.214c8b28.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <200312251534.11931.mervc@eol.ca> On December 25, 2003 10:12 am, JoeHill wrote: > If you mean GUI config tools, I don't really use all those GUI tools that > come with Mandrake anyway, I'm much more comfy at the CLI with > configuration, so I can see what's going on in detail. The main thing I'm > looking for is great package management and stability. I miss the old MDK > 9.1 days, uptimes of 2 weeks or more were not unheard of... :-( Well if you would like to try a Debian system, there is an outfit in Vancouver, Canada who have added a few tools of their own and sell a Deb system that is a mixture of stable and unstable branches. This computer has gone 2 months uptime and then rebooted cuz I did something stupid. Apt-get can frustrate at first but it does a very good job at handling all dependencies. Libranet supplies a utility that does a kernel upgrade and all the updating of grub etc. Debian is known for stability if you stay with programs in the stable branch. Not many of us do, gotta have the latest and greatest. The last version is free but outdated now. The current is priced less than Mandrake. Take a look a libranet.com. Cheers -- Merv Curley Scarborough, Ont Libranet Linux 2.8 KDE 3.1.4 KMail 1.5.4 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From wildberger-iRg7kjdsKiH3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 26 00:06:37 2003 From: wildberger-iRg7kjdsKiH3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (John Wildberger) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2003 19:06:37 -0500 Subject: C programming question In-Reply-To: References: <200312231954.28747.wildberger@cogeco.ca> Message-ID: <200312251906.38078.wildberger@cogeco.ca> On December 24, 2003 12:41 pm, Tim Writer wrote: > A better way to write this is to use C99's exact size types (from > ): I followed your advice and modified the program accordingly ___________________________________________________ /* mem_displ.cpp * Original program 'mem.c' by Greg Franks Dec 22 2003 * modified, converted to C++ and commented by J.Wildberger * execute with: ./mem_displ + arg (memloc in decimal number) * compile with: c++ -o mem_displ mem_displ.cpp */ #include #include //required for O_RDONLY #include //required for lseek #include //required for setbase #include //required for uint16_t using namespace std; int main(int argc, char *argv[] ) { int i; int max=10; // display 10 bytes starting at specified offset if (argc != 2) { cout <<"Specify memory offset from zero"< At offset 20 : 54 FF 00 F0 57 FF 00 F0 5A FF ***************************************************************************** > > On December 23, 2003 06:45 pm, Matthew Rice wrote: > > > And this is better : > > > > > > od -j 20 -N100 -t x2 /dev/mem ( I modified this from 2 to 100 and offset 20) ==> 0000000 0001 0000 ff5a f000 e2c3 f000 ff5a f000 0000020 ff5a f000 ff54 f000 ff57 f000 ff5a f000 0000040 fea5 f000 e987 f000 007c f000 007c f000 0000060 007c f000 007c f000 ef57 f000 007c f000 0000100 0014 c000 f84d f000 f841 f000 e024 f000 0000120 e739 f000 f859 f000 e82e f000 efd2 f000 0000140 ff53 f000 0000144 This might be shorter, but very confusing. Note the numbering for each line. It is double of what it should be.(2 times hex) Also the bytes are grouped in double bytes, the higher byte first, followed by lower byte. Compare this with the above result, that shows the proper sequence of bytes. ******************************************************************************** I am now happy to report, that it *IS* possible to display physical memory in a working Linux system. The "why" is a different issue. John -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From wildberger-iRg7kjdsKiH3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 26 01:24:32 2003 From: wildberger-iRg7kjdsKiH3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (John Wildberger) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2003 20:24:32 -0500 Subject: Formatting in C++ Message-ID: <200312252024.32372.wildberger@cogeco.ca> How can I use cout <<... to perform the equivalent to printf( " %.2X ",buf[i] ); when buf[] was declared as uint8_t buf[] ; and the content of buf[i] are hex numbers like 0x5e, or 0xfd, etc ? I think that I would have to include #include ,but I am at a loss how to accomplish the formatting. John -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jingsu-26n5VD7DAF2Tm46uYYfjYg at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 26 01:51:06 2003 From: jingsu-26n5VD7DAF2Tm46uYYfjYg at public.gmane.org (Jing Su) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2003 20:51:06 -0500 Subject: Formatting in C++ In-Reply-To: <200312252024.32372.wildberger-iRg7kjdsKiH3fQ9qLvQP4Q@public.gmane.org> References: <200312252024.32372.wildberger@cogeco.ca> Message-ID: > How can I use cout <<... to perform the equivalent to > printf( " %.2X ",buf[i] ); > when buf[] was declared as uint8_t buf[] ; > and the content of buf[i] are hex numbers like 0x5e, or 0xfd, etc ? > I think that I would have to include #include ,but I am at a loss > how to accomplish the formatting. > John #include cout.setf(std::ios::fixed | std::ios::hex); cout << std::setprecision(2) << buf[i]; at least that's off the top of my head... I think that's right... I'm sure that a quick google search will fill in the blanks if the above doesn't compile or do the right thing... -Jing -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From pjc-6duGhz7i8susTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 26 02:21:43 2003 From: pjc-6duGhz7i8susTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Paul Croft) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2003 21:21:43 -0500 Subject: urpmi and apt-get In-Reply-To: <200312251534.11931.mervc-MwcKTmeKVNQ@public.gmane.org> References: <1072292881.2331.314.camel@localhost> <1072329985.13755.4.camel@localhost> <20031225101206.214c8b28.joehill@sympatico.ca> <200312251534.11931.mervc@eol.ca> Message-ID: <1072405303.921.7.camel@libranet> I argee 100% Debian and more so Libranet is a brilliant way to go, Libranet is great because of the tools Merv mentioned along with Nvidia drivers,True type fonts,java&flash plugins just to name a few more all available via Libranet's "Adminmenu". I have been using it now for about a year and it's great! apt just rules in my opinion..... On Thu, 2003-12-25 at 15:34, Merv Curley wrote: > On December 25, 2003 10:12 am, JoeHill wrote: > > > If you mean GUI config tools, I don't really use all those GUI tools that > > come with Mandrake anyway, I'm much more comfy at the CLI with > > configuration, so I can see what's going on in detail. The main thing I'm > > looking for is great package management and stability. I miss the old MDK > > 9.1 days, uptimes of 2 weeks or more were not unheard of... :-( > > Well if you would like to try a Debian system, there is an outfit in > Vancouver, Canada who have added a few tools of their own and sell a Deb > system that is a mixture of stable and unstable branches. This computer > has gone 2 months uptime and then rebooted cuz I did something stupid. > > Apt-get can frustrate at first but it does a very good job at handling all > dependencies. Libranet supplies a utility that does a kernel upgrade and > all the updating of grub etc. Debian is known for stability if you stay > with programs in the stable branch. Not many of us do, gotta have the > latest and greatest. > > The last version is free but outdated now. The current is priced less than > Mandrake. Take a look a libranet.com. > > Cheers -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From wildberger-iRg7kjdsKiH3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 26 02:21:36 2003 From: wildberger-iRg7kjdsKiH3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (John Wildberger) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2003 21:21:36 -0500 Subject: Formatting in C++ In-Reply-To: References: <200312252024.32372.wildberger@cogeco.ca> Message-ID: <200312252121.36850.wildberger@cogeco.ca> On December 25, 2003 08:51 pm, Jing Su wrote: > > How can I use cout <<... to perform the equivalent to > > printf( " %.2X ",buf[i] ); > > when buf[] was declared as uint8_t buf[] ; > > and the content of buf[i] are hex numbers like 0x5e, or 0xfd, etc ? > > I think that I would have to include #include ,but I am at a > > loss how to accomplish the formatting. > > John > > #include > > cout.setf(std::ios::fixed | std::ios::hex); > cout << std::setprecision(2) << buf[i]; I tried this before; it compiles without any complaint, but gives garbage output. I tried Google, but no relevent info. John -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jingsu-26n5VD7DAF2Tm46uYYfjYg at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 26 02:41:16 2003 From: jingsu-26n5VD7DAF2Tm46uYYfjYg at public.gmane.org (Jing Su) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2003 21:41:16 -0500 Subject: Formatting in C++ In-Reply-To: <200312252121.36850.wildberger-iRg7kjdsKiH3fQ9qLvQP4Q@public.gmane.org> References: <200312252024.32372.wildberger@cogeco.ca> <200312252121.36850.wildberger@cogeco.ca> Message-ID: > > #include > > > > cout.setf(std::ios::fixed | std::ios::hex); > > cout << std::setprecision(2) << buf[i]; > I tried this before; it compiles without any complaint, but gives garbage > output. > I tried Google, but no relevent info. > John I tried a short example, which seemed to work... snippet below. The only catch I found was I had to cast the number. I think the operator overload is sending the number into the character interpretor instead of the numeric interpretor. std::cout << setw(2) << (unsigned int)std::hex << buf[i]; that seemed to do the trick. Shows the number as hex, space filling to right align the output at two spaces. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From mr6re9-mI4xJ4qlgtBiLUuM0BA3LQ at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 26 03:33:02 2003 From: mr6re9-mI4xJ4qlgtBiLUuM0BA3LQ at public.gmane.org (GDHough) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2003 22:33:02 -0500 Subject: [xawtv and webcam looping] In-Reply-To: <200312251128.02175.mr6re9-mI4xJ4qlgtBiLUuM0BA3LQ@public.gmane.org> References: <200312220928.11989.mr6re9@execulink.com> <3FE92671.7070108@sympatico.ca> <200312251128.02175.mr6re9@execulink.com> Message-ID: <200312252233.02325.mr6re9@execulink.com> On Thursday 25 December 2003 11:28, GDHough wrote: > > >>gspy is designed for webcam based security and may offer fewer > > >> headaches > > Maybe, let's see... > Yes...a dozen or so devel-packages later and it's a perfect Christmas gift. Thanks, farmer6re9 -- Eating Crow is better with MyCrowSauce -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From pking123-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 26 05:30:17 2003 From: pking123-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (pking123-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 0:30:17 -0500 Subject: Compiling the 2.6 kernel Message-ID: <20031226053018.NDOM16714.tomts27-srv.bellnexxia.net@smtp.bellnexxia.net> I decided to celebrate Christmas by compiling a version 2.6 kernel. :-) I have done several compiles before, but still have a few questions about this compile. First, I noticed that my OS (Debian 3) uses initrd by default. This is my first compile using initrd. From what I have been reading regarding initrd, it is really a filesystem-in-a-file, and the default one I have uses cramfs. Documentation I have on initird suggest ext2 or minix, so I guess it really doesn't matter about what the filesystem is. When I mounted my default initrd using loopback, it looks as though there is a directory for modules in there. Initrd also appears to contain an ash script called linuxrc. Now, from what I understand about UNIX architecture, doesn't ash (or any shell) require a kernel underneath? So why don't I just toss initrd and boot straight into the kernel I was going to use anyway? This is what I am accustomed to doing in just about every other compilation I have done.Why the extra layer of bureaucracy? As for the modules, how do I know which modules to put in there? I recognise the "benefit" of initrd is to selectively install modules in a way that does not cause conflicts with other modules. So, I guess that means I can't include all of them. :-) Nevertheless, I have created the beginnings of my own initrd, but am at a loss as to the modules, and how to write modules.conf. Any suggestions or readings would be of help. THanks Paul King -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jingsu-26n5VD7DAF2Tm46uYYfjYg at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 26 06:47:23 2003 From: jingsu-26n5VD7DAF2Tm46uYYfjYg at public.gmane.org (Jing Su) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 01:47:23 -0500 Subject: Compiling the 2.6 kernel In-Reply-To: <20031226053018.NDOM16714.tomts27-srv.bellnexxia.net@smtp. bellnexxia.net> References: <20031226053018.NDOM16714.tomts27-srv.bellnexxia.net@smtp. bellnexxia.net> Message-ID: > Any suggestions or readings would be of help. I too decided to play with 2.6 for the day, though I got frustrated and stopped. Anyone know what the deal with the new modules is? Based on some browsing of newsgroups via google, it seems that a new module loader is needed? (I'm using the one shipped with RH8). Anyways, I went and got the latest/greatest non-development version of the module loader. modules.conf has been replaced with modprobe.conf, and modprobe.devfs. Haven't quite figured out these things yet. Anyways, I've been getting module dependency errors and they refuse to load when I boot the new kernel.... still investigating it though, to figure out what's going wrong. As for initrd, I found that it's mostly used for scsi systems. Atleast it's true in my case. I needed to pack up the the scsi board module into the initrd image. After a while, I found the whole process of initrd creation to be annoying, and just compiled the scsi driver into the kernel itself, and did a regular boot without initrd. -Jing -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From pking123-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 26 07:48:58 2003 From: pking123-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (Paul King) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 02:48:58 -0500 Subject: Compiling the 2.6 kernel In-Reply-To: References: <20031226053018.NDOM16714.tomts27-srv.bellnexxia.net@smtp. bellnexxia.net> Message-ID: <3FEBA19A.11480.5FC48@localhost> Date sent: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 01:47:23 -0500 From: Jing Su To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Subject: Re: [TLUG]: Compiling the 2.6 kernel Send reply to: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > > Any suggestions or readings would be of help. > > I too decided to play with 2.6 for the day, though I got frustrated and > stopped. Anyone know what the deal with the new modules is? Based on > some browsing of newsgroups via google, it seems that a new module loader > is needed? (I'm using the one shipped with RH8). Anyways, I went and got > the latest/greatest non-development version of the module loader. > modules.conf has been replaced with modprobe.conf, and modprobe.devfs. > Haven't quite figured out these things yet. > > Anyways, I've been getting module dependency errors and they refuse to > load when I boot the new kernel.... still investigating it though, to > figure out what's going wrong. Cover the obvious ... Did you do a "make modules" then a "make modules_install"? The kernel I installed keeps complaining about an unrecognised block (0,0) on the boot partition, and does a kernel panic. When I load the default kernel, it does not have the problem. However, this time I am trying to do this without initrd (I compiled the kernel with initrd turned off, and do not have an initrd line in lilo.conf for that kernel). > > As for initrd, I found that it's mostly used for scsi systems. Atleast > it's true in my case. I needed to pack up the the scsi board module into > the initrd image. After a while, I found the whole process of initrd > creation to be annoying, and just compiled the scsi driver into the kernel > itself, and did a regular boot without initrd. > > -Jing > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml ========================================================= Paul King http://www3.sympatico.ca/pking123/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 26 10:29:04 2003 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter L. Peres) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 12:29:04 +0200 (IST) Subject: C programming question In-Reply-To: <200312251906.38078.wildberger-iRg7kjdsKiH3fQ9qLvQP4Q@public.gmane.org> References: <200312231954.28747.wildberger@cogeco.ca> <200312251906.38078.wildberger@cogeco.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, 25 Dec 2003, John Wildberger wrote: > ==> At offset 20 : 54 FF 00 F0 57 FF 00 F0 5A FF > > > > > od -j 20 -N100 -t x2 /dev/mem ( I modified this from 2 to 100 > 0000140 ff53 f000 > 0000144 > > This might be shorter, but very confusing. Note the numbering for each line. > It is double of what it should be.(2 times hex) od -j 20 -N100 -tx1 /dev/mem ;-) Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 26 10:30:52 2003 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter L. Peres) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 12:30:52 +0200 (IST) Subject: Formatting in C++ In-Reply-To: <200312252024.32372.wildberger-iRg7kjdsKiH3fQ9qLvQP4Q@public.gmane.org> References: <200312252024.32372.wildberger@cogeco.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, 25 Dec 2003, John Wildberger wrote: > How can I use cout <<... to perform the equivalent to > printf( " %.2X ",buf[i] ); > when buf[] was declared as uint8_t buf[] ; > and the content of buf[i] are hex numbers like 0x5e, or 0xfd, etc ? > I think that I would have to include #include ,but I am at a loss > how to accomplish the formatting. cout << uint8 << buf[i]; // example only, uint8 may not work on your c++ Look up the correct syntax for the uint8 there are a dozen options. Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From wildberger-iRg7kjdsKiH3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 26 11:42:52 2003 From: wildberger-iRg7kjdsKiH3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (John Wildberger) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 06:42:52 -0500 Subject: C programming question In-Reply-To: References: <200312251906.38078.wildberger@cogeco.ca> Message-ID: <200312260642.53048.wildberger@cogeco.ca> On December 26, 2003 05:29 am, Peter L. Peres wrote: > od -j 20 -N100 -tx1 /dev/mem > Peter Thanks Peter, od -j0 -N100 -tx1 /dev/mem ==> 0000000 01 00 00 00 5a ff 00 f0 c3 e2 00 f0 5a ff 00 f0 0000020 5a ff 00 f0 54 ff 00 f0 57 ff 00 f0 5a ff 00 f0 0000040 a5 fe 00 f0 87 e9 00 f0 7c 00 00 f0 7c 00 00 f0 0000060 7c 00 00 f0 7c 00 00 f0 57 ef 00 f0 7c 00 00 f0 0000100 14 00 00 c0 4d f8 00 f0 41 f8 00 f0 24 e0 00 f0 0000120 39 e7 00 f0 59 f8 00 f0 2e e8 00 f0 d2 ef 00 f0 0000140 53 ff 00 f0 0000144 This does the trick as far as the numbers go, but the location indicators are still not right. They should be in incrementsc of 10 and not 20 because they count in hex the number of bytes. John -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From wildberger-iRg7kjdsKiH3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 26 13:15:01 2003 From: wildberger-iRg7kjdsKiH3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (John Wildberger) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 08:15:01 -0500 Subject: Formatting in C++ In-Reply-To: References: <200312252024.32372.wildberger@cogeco.ca> <200312252121.36850.wildberger@cogeco.ca> Message-ID: <200312260815.01414.wildberger@cogeco.ca> On December 25, 2003 09:41 pm, Jing Su wrote: > I tried a short example, which seemed to work... snippet below. The only > catch I found was I had to cast the number. I think the operator > overload is sending the number into the character interpretor instead of > the numeric interpretor. > > std::cout << setw(2) << (unsigned int)std::hex << buf[i]; > This gives me a long string of numbers starting with 134515590134515590....... The number sequense in buf[] is 01 00 00 00 5A FF 00 F0 C3 E2 This prints fine with printf( "%.2X ",buf[i]); I also tried a few other suggestins, given by by Peter Peres but also with negative success. It seems that the good old printf() is still the best to use. It just bugs me not being able to do it with cout. John -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jingsu-26n5VD7DAF2Tm46uYYfjYg at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 26 15:12:07 2003 From: jingsu-26n5VD7DAF2Tm46uYYfjYg at public.gmane.org (Jing Su) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 10:12:07 -0500 Subject: Formatting in C++ (fwd) Message-ID: My appologies... I double checked and realized I copied the code incorrectly. Heh. Should've used cut&paste instead of re-typing it. The line should read: std::cout << setw(2) << std::hex << (unsigned it)buf[i]; -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 26 15:46:03 2003 From: cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org (cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 10:46:03 -0500 Subject: Waaaay offtopic In-Reply-To: Message from Anton Markov of "Sun, 21 Dec 2003 15:31:53 EST." <3FE60339.1000100-F0u+EriZ6ihBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20031219215458.041e7943.joehill@sympatico.ca> <3FE5EF7A.3050400@sympatico.ca> <3FE5F4AD.30702@truxtar.com> <3FE5FA17.9080903@rogers.com> <3FE60339.1000100@truxtar.com> Message-ID: <20031226154604.C11B4401F@cbbrowne.com> > We don't have to argue about the importance of vitamins and minerals, > do we? If you're lacking sufficient quantities, that's certainly cause for problems. But adding more may not do anything more profound than making one's pee very expensive. -- "cbbrowne","@","acm.org" http://www.ntlug.org/~cbbrowne/nonrdbms.html Is the surface of a planet the right place for an expanding technological civilization? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 26 16:23:43 2003 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 11:23:43 -0500 Subject: Waaaay offtopic In-Reply-To: <20031226154604.C11B4401F-xzRQuAxiFLNWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org> References: <20031219215458.041e7943.joehill@sympatico.ca> <3FE5EF7A.3050400@sympatico.ca> <3FE5F4AD.30702@truxtar.com> <3FE5FA17.9080903@rogers.com> <3FE60339.1000100@truxtar.com> <20031226154604.C11B4401F@cbbrowne.com> Message-ID: <3FEC608F.3010008@rogers.com> cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org wrote: >>We don't have to argue about the importance of vitamins and minerals, >>do we? > > > If you're lacking sufficient quantities, that's certainly cause for > problems. > > But adding more may not do anything more profound than making one's pee > very expensive. And some vitamins in excess are harmfull. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 26 16:51:14 2003 From: fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Fraser Campbell) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 11:51:14 -0500 Subject: Compiling the 2.6 kernel In-Reply-To: <20031226053018.NDOM16714.tomts27-srv.bellnexxia.net-dxTHOwpelHWiNGDy/dcMHtHuzzzSOjJt@public.gmane.org> References: <20031226053018.NDOM16714.tomts27-srv.bellnexxia.net@smtp.bellnexxia.net> Message-ID: <200312261151.14858.fraser@wehave.net> On December 26, 2003 12:30 am, pking123-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org wrote: > doesn't ash (or any shell) require a kernel underneath? So why don't I just > toss initrd and boot straight into the kernel I was going to use anyway? Debian kernels are modular. Almost everything is a module (even basic IDE support). I'm far from an expert on initrd but, I believe, the initrd is required in these circumstances (where you need a module to mount your root filesystem). If your root filesystem is on IDE then you need the ide_disk module loaded before you can mount the root filesystem, once that's mounted then additional modules that you need can simply be modprobed /lib/modules on your root filesystem. Another case of needing an initrd would be if you have your root filesystem on a software raid device (well some hardware raids as well probably). LVM is likely another case where you'd require initrd, although having / on lvm is not recommended. > This is what I am accustomed to doing in just about every other compilation > I have done.Why the extra layer of bureaucracy? By using modules you can support a maximum range of hardware without having every single driver compiled into the kernel. > As for the modules, how do I know which modules to put in there? I > recognise the "benefit" of initrd is to selectively install modules in a > way that does not cause conflicts with other modules. So, I guess that > means I can't include all of them. :-) There are a series of files and directories under /etc/mkinitrd/ that let you specify additional modules to load, programs to add to the initrd, filesystem to use, scripts to run, etc. mkinitrd is just a (very configurable) shell script so you can read through it to figure out how the Debian folk decide what goes in, I've never looked at it in detail. > Nevertheless, I have created the beginnings of my own initrd, but am at a > loss as to the modules, and how to write modules.conf. You probably should not manually modify modules.conf (man update-modules), if you're talking about modules.conf in the initrd then I'm not too sure ... hopefully covered in the various manpages. -- Fraser Campbell http://www.wehave.net/ Georgetown, Ontario, Canada Debian GNU/Linux -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 26 17:04:32 2003 From: fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Fraser Campbell) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 12:04:32 -0500 Subject: Compiling the 2.6 kernel In-Reply-To: <200312261151.14858.fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org> References: <20031226053018.NDOM16714.tomts27-srv.bellnexxia.net@smtp.bellnexxia.net> <200312261151.14858.fraser@wehave.net> Message-ID: <200312261204.32618.fraser@wehave.net> On December 26, 2003 11:51 am, Fraser Campbell wrote: > > doesn't ash (or any shell) require a kernel underneath? So why don't I > > just toss initrd and boot straight into the kernel I was going to use > > anyway? > > Debian kernels are modular. To answer your question, if you wish to do away with initrd then I don't see why you cannot. Just compile IDE/SCSI/whatever support directly into the kernel and you should be fine without an initrd. Have you looked into Debian's make-kpkg tool, it is trivial to compile your own Debian kernels (i.e. dpkg installable kernels) using it. -- Fraser Campbell http://www.wehave.net/ Georgetown, Ontario, Canada Debian GNU/Linux -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From anton-F0u+EriZ6ihBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 26 17:27:06 2003 From: anton-F0u+EriZ6ihBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Anton Markov) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 12:27:06 -0500 Subject: Compiling the 2.6 kernel In-Reply-To: References: <20031226053018.NDOM16714.tomts27-srv.bellnexxia.net@smtp. bellnexxia.net> Message-ID: <3FEC6F6A.7080505@truxtar.com> Hi guys, Here is how I got 2.6.0 working on my RH9 system: I used the unofficial Redhat kernel source RPMs. I had trouble with the various new module loading utilities (yes, you do need new modinit and modutils), until I downloaded the kernel with apt-get. It solved the dependency problems. Add the following to your /etc/apt/sources.list: # Arjan's 2.6 series kernel repository rpm http://people.redhat.com arjanv/2.5 kernel rpm-src http://people.redhat.com arjanv/2.5 kernel Then do: # apt-get install kernel-source#2.6.0-1.104 or do: # apt-get install kernel-source to get a list of all possible kernel versions. You will find the kernel under /usr/src/linux-2.6.0-1.104. Configure it as you normally would. 2.6 includes new GTK+ and QT based configuration interfaces. Use "make xconfig" for the QT and "make gconfig" for the GTK one. I like the QT configuration tool better. There is no need to do "make dep" any more. Just do: # make all # make install # make modules_install and you should have a "linux-2.6.0custom" or similar entry in /etc/lilo.conf or /boot/grub/menu.lst automatically. Now on the topic of initrd: initrd.img is created automatically during "make install" by the "mkinitrd" tool. See "man mkinitrd" for details. However, I have found that mkinitrd did not work for the new kernel. I don't think it was even created properly, because when I run mkinitrd manually, it fails. I just compiled the drivers for ext3 and reiserfs (my root system) directly into the kernel, and removed the "initrd 2.6..." line from my /boot/grub/menu.lst file for the new kernel entry. I think initrd is only really useful for generic distribution kernels; if you make a custom kernel, it makes sense to compile your IDE/SCSI chipset and root filesystem drivers directly into the kernel. FYI: a new version on mkinitrd came out today on apt-get. Maybe this one will work. If you still have problems with modules not loading, get the new module-init-tools version 0.9.12 or newer. You will have to convert your /etc/modules.conf file to /etc/modprobe.conf format, etc. Read the README with module-init-tools. But first try the apt-get solution above! I hope this helped. Anton Jing Su wrote: >>Any suggestions or readings would be of help. > > > I too decided to play with 2.6 for the day, though I got frustrated and > stopped. Anyone know what the deal with the new modules is? Based on > some browsing of newsgroups via google, it seems that a new module loader > is needed? (I'm using the one shipped with RH8). Anyways, I went and got > the latest/greatest non-development version of the module loader. > modules.conf has been replaced with modprobe.conf, and modprobe.devfs. > Haven't quite figured out these things yet. > > Anyways, I've been getting module dependency errors and they refuse to > load when I boot the new kernel.... still investigating it though, to > figure out what's going wrong. > > As for initrd, I found that it's mostly used for scsi systems. Atleast > it's true in my case. I needed to pack up the the scsi board module into > the initrd image. After a while, I found the whole process of initrd > creation to be annoying, and just compiled the scsi driver into the kernel > itself, and did a regular boot without initrd. > > -Jing -- Anton Markov <("anton" + "@" + "truxtar" + "." + "com")> GnuPGP Key fingerprint = 5546 A6E2 1FFB 9BB8 15C3 CE34 46B7 8D93 3AD1 44B4 "The difference between insanity and genius is measured only by success." - Some bad guy from 007 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From wildberger-iRg7kjdsKiH3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 26 17:48:36 2003 From: wildberger-iRg7kjdsKiH3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (John Wildberger) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 12:48:36 -0500 Subject: Formatting in C++ (fwd) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200312261248.36575.wildberger@cogeco.ca> On December 26, 2003 10:12 am, Jing Su wrote: > My appologies... I double checked and realized I copied the code > incorrectly. Heh. Should've used cut&paste instead of re-typing it. > > The line should read: > > std::cout << setw(2) << std::hex << (unsigned it)buf[i]; This did do the trick.With "using namespace std;" and the addition of "<< setfill('0')" I got very close to the result of printf( "%.2X ",buf[i]); This is my code snippet: for (i=0; i 01 00 00 00 5a ff 00 f0 c3 e2 Note the capital X in the printf. Is there something similar for cout<< , that would give hex in capitals? Thanks for your trouble in helping me along. I am sure that other people on the list , who are interested in C++ will also appreciate your effort. John -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 26 18:02:31 2003 From: fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Fraser Campbell) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 13:02:31 -0500 Subject: Compiling the 2.6 kernel In-Reply-To: <3FEC6F6A.7080505-F0u+EriZ6ihBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20031226053018.NDOM16714.tomts27-srv.bellnexxia.net@smtp. bellnexxia.net> <3FEC6F6A.7080505@truxtar.com> Message-ID: <200312261302.31956.fraser@wehave.net> On December 26, 2003 12:27 pm, Anton Markov wrote: > # Arjan's 2.6 series kernel repository > rpm http://people.redhat.com arjanv/2.5 kernel > rpm-src http://people.redhat.com arjanv/2.5 kernel That is very cool, a redhat site support apt-get! -- Fraser Campbell http://www.wehave.net/ Georgetown, Ontario, Canada Debian GNU/Linux -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From kcozens-qazKcTl6WRFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 26 18:53:45 2003 From: kcozens-qazKcTl6WRFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Kevin Cozens) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 13:53:45 -0500 Subject: Compiling the 2.6 kernel In-Reply-To: <20031226053018.NDOM16714.tomts27-srv.bellnexxia.net@smtp.b ellnexxia.net> References: <20031226053018.NDOM16714.tomts27-srv.bellnexxia.net@smtp.b ellnexxia.net> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20031226134823.020d2ec0@mail.interlog.com> At 12:30 AM 12/26/2003 -0500, you wrote: >I decided to celebrate Christmas by compiling a version 2.6 kernel. :-) There is more to getting a (b)leading edge kernel running than just compiling it. In the past, when I wanted to run 2.2 or 2.4 soon after it came out, you needed to have more recent versions of about 6 packages in order to use the new kernel. The packages included (IIRC): binutils, modutils, nettools, and some others I can't remember. Be sure to check the documentation to see what else you may need to update before you try rebooting in to a new kernel. Cheers! Kevin. (http://www.interlog.com/~kcozens/) Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172 |"What are we going to do today, Borg?" E-mail:kcozens at interlog dot com|"Same thing we always do, Pinkutus: Packet:ve3syb-XXPEJ3/fxIc at public.gmane.org#con.on.ca.na| Try to assimilate the world!" #include | -Pinkutus & the Borg -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 26 20:49:08 2003 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter L. Peres) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 22:49:08 +0200 (IST) Subject: Formatting in C++ (fwd) In-Reply-To: <200312261248.36575.wildberger-iRg7kjdsKiH3fQ9qLvQP4Q@public.gmane.org> References: <200312261248.36575.wildberger@cogeco.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, 26 Dec 2003, John Wildberger wrote: std::cout << setf(uppercase) << setw(2) << hex << (unsigned it)buf[i]; Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 26 20:41:39 2003 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter L. Peres) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 22:41:39 +0200 (IST) Subject: Formatting in C++ (fwd) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 26 Dec 2003, Jing Su wrote: > My appologies... I double checked and realized I copied the code > incorrectly. Heh. Should've used cut&paste instead of re-typing it. > > The line should read: > > std::cout << setw(2) << std::hex << (unsigned it)buf[i]; er, hex is not in std:: it requires #include Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 26 20:16:32 2003 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter L. Peres) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 22:16:32 +0200 (IST) Subject: C programming question In-Reply-To: <200312260642.53048.wildberger-iRg7kjdsKiH3fQ9qLvQP4Q@public.gmane.org> References: <200312251906.38078.wildberger@cogeco.ca> <200312260642.53048.wildberger@cogeco.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, 26 Dec 2003, John Wildberger wrote: > On December 26, 2003 05:29 am, Peter L. Peres wrote: > > > od -j 20 -N100 -tx1 /dev/mem > > Peter > > Thanks Peter, > od -j0 -N100 -tx1 /dev/mem ... > This does the trick as far as the numbers go, but the location > indicators are still not right. They should be in incrementsc of 10 and > not 20 because they count in hex the number of bytes. John od addresses default to octal. Use -Ax to get hex addresses. As always the manpage helps ... (od is a very old program). plp-NSb0HxlTAbs at public.gmane.org:~ > od -Ax -j0 -N100 -w8 -tx1 /dev/random 000000 2f 56 b4 15 48 cd 26 51 000008 02 05 6d 2d 85 0e 5b 02 000010 de bb 45 85 15 6c a7 29 000018 7f e6 09 1e 99 75 46 a7 000020 4d 47 cd d0 3b 7e c8 a4 000028 a0 dc b2 6e 0e 77 f8 8f 000030 8a ca e2 0c 02 b1 00 52 000038 e8 f3 6f 19 da 6a 1b 67 000040 4c c6 81 4a f9 e8 a7 5e 000048 a3 be 4c d9 7d e1 1d 23 000050 1d 88 3d 8b db 41 3d 05 000058 22 bf 94 3b a7 f4 40 89 000060 e1 9f d6 ed 000064 Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 26 20:40:05 2003 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter L. Peres) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 22:40:05 +0200 (IST) Subject: Formatting in C++ In-Reply-To: <200312260815.01414.wildberger-iRg7kjdsKiH3fQ9qLvQP4Q@public.gmane.org> References: <200312252024.32372.wildberger@cogeco.ca> <200312252121.36850.wildberger@cogeco.ca> <200312260815.01414.wildberger@cogeco.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, 26 Dec 2003, John Wildberger wrote: > I also tried a few other suggestins, given by by Peter Peres but also with > negative success. > It seems that the good old printf() is still the best to use. It just bugs me > not being able to do it with cout. info iostream, menu nodes: Streams->Ostream->Writing where we find the prototype of: ostream::form(const char *FORMAT, ...) also: Streams->Iostreams->Ios->Format Control and 'Manipulators', which contains some examples. Your code would be: cout << "Yada: 0x" << setw(2) << hex << buf[i] << nl; and f_unit8 could be: #define f_uint8 setw(2) << hex so you could: cout << "Yada: 0x" << f_uint8 << buf[i] << nl; Peter PS: You should take a moment (or a day) and index your system. This info and much more is on your machine. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From pking123-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 27 01:02:31 2003 From: pking123-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (Paul King) Date: 26 Dec 2003 20:02:31 -0500 Subject: Kernel 2.6 compile: Comaptability? Message-ID: <1072486950.2428.5.camel@gandalf> An earlier poster posed what was a good issue: that I ought to check my software for compatability with the kernel. OK, so I try to check, but the compatability list doesn't appear to be in its usual place. Anyone know where this stuff is? -- Paul King -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jason-gaRZxGPHtpBxZtjKW1aY+1aTQe2KTcn/ at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 27 02:00:31 2003 From: jason-gaRZxGPHtpBxZtjKW1aY+1aTQe2KTcn/ at public.gmane.org (Jason Shein) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 21:00:31 -0500 Subject: Compiling the 2.6 kernel In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20031226134823.020d2ec0-Nf8GSVjHSL5zk1aGpazrEgC/G2K4zDHf@public.gmane.org> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20031226134823.020d2ec0@mail.interlog.com> Message-ID: <3FECE7BF.5030006@pcsecurityonline.com> I came across this handy information and figured I would pass it on, There are a number of utilities that you will have to upgrade for them to work properly with your new 2.6 kernel. Some of the utilities listed in 'Changes' you won't have to worry about, as for example they may be specific to certain filesystems. However, you will at least need to meet the minimum version requirements for the following (see 'Documentation/Changes' for the latest requirements -- they may have changed!): Name: Minimum version: How to find version: Gnu C Compiler 2.95.3 gcc --version Gnu Make 3.78 make --version binutils 2.12 ld -v util-linux 2.10o fdformat --version module-init-tools 0.9.9 depmod -V procps 2.0.9 ps --version [procps 2.x] [procps 3.x] The following utilities are filesystem specific. If you're running ext2 or ext3, be sure to update your e2fsprogs, if you're running jfs, be sure to update jfsutils, etc... Name: Minimum version: How to find version: e2fsprogs 1.29 tune2fs jfsutils 1.0.14 fsck.jfs -V reiserfsprogs 3.6.3 reiserfsck -V 2>&1 | grep reiserfsprogs xfsprogs 2.1.0 xfs_db -V nfs-utils 1.0.5 showmount --version And a handful of other utilities that you'll want to update if you use them: Name: Minimum version: How to find version: pcmcia-cs 3.1.21 cardmgr -V quota-tools 3.09 quota -V PPP 2.4.0 ppd --version isdn4k-utils 3.1pre1 isdnctrl 2>&1 | grep version oprofile 0.5.3 oprofiled --version If you're going to be running ALSA for the first time, also be sure to visit http://www.alsa-project.org/ to grab the latest alsa-lib and alsa-utils. A working NVidia driver with 2.6 can be found at http://www.minion.de/. Here are a couple of documents that walk you through the specific issues you may run into when upgrading RedHat 9 to the 2.6 kernel, http://www.fearthecow.net/kernel.html and http://thomer.com/linux/migrate-to-2.6.html Kevin Cozens wrote: > At 12:30 AM 12/26/2003 -0500, you wrote: > >> I decided to celebrate Christmas by compiling a version 2.6 kernel. :-) > > > There is more to getting a (b)leading edge kernel running than just > compiling it. In the past, when I wanted to run 2.2 or 2.4 soon after it > came out, you needed to have more recent versions of about 6 packages in > order to use the new kernel. > > The packages included (IIRC): binutils, modutils, nettools, and some > others I can't remember. Be sure to check the documentation to see what > else you may need to update before you try rebooting in to a new kernel. > > > Cheers! > > Kevin. (http://www.interlog.com/~kcozens/) > > Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172 |"What are we going to do today, Borg?" > E-mail:kcozens at interlog dot com|"Same thing we always do, Pinkutus: > Packet:ve3syb-XXPEJ3/fxIc at public.gmane.org#con.on.ca.na| Try to assimilate the world!" > #include | -Pinkutus & the Borg > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- " Eventually people tire of repairing broken Windows, And decide to replace them with something stronger" (o_ //\ Linux - The Choice Of A GNU Generation V_/_ Jason Shein Linux Registered User #281100 jason-gaRZxGPHtpBxZtjKW1aY+1aTQe2KTcn/@public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From pking123-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 27 03:07:01 2003 From: pking123-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (Paul King) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 22:07:01 -0500 Subject: Kernel 2.6 compile: Comaptability? In-Reply-To: <1072486950.2428.5.camel-MUrQqSjliZg@public.gmane.org> References: <1072486950.2428.5.camel@gandalf> Message-ID: <3FECB105.8357.11A85D@localhost> Forget it. I know where it is now. I see that I needed to update e2fsprogs and procps, but that was tangential to the main problem: the modules wouldn't load. I recall this was posted earlier (by Jing Su) without much reply. I installed the latest e2fsprogs, and got the same problem. No drivers except what was already compiled in; no mouse; no sound. There was a complaint from modprobe about some function or other not being present during the boot sequence. The newer version of modutils didn't change or eliminate this error. e2fsprogs, FWIW, is installed in the latest version (1.35-WIP, whatever "WIP" means). I see all my partitions, so I would suppose the "WIP" part is unimportant in my case -- I could find nothing on the abbreviation. Subject: [TLUG]: Kernel 2.6 compile: Comaptability? From: Paul King To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Organization: Date sent: 26 Dec 2003 20:02:31 -0500 Send reply to: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > An earlier poster posed what was a good issue: that I ought to check my > software for compatability with the kernel. OK, so I try to check, but > the compatability list doesn't appear to be in its usual place. Anyone > know where this stuff is? > > -- > Paul King > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml ========================================================= Paul King http://www3.sympatico.ca/pking123/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jingsu-26n5VD7DAF2Tm46uYYfjYg at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 27 03:25:23 2003 From: jingsu-26n5VD7DAF2Tm46uYYfjYg at public.gmane.org (Jing Su) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 22:25:23 -0500 Subject: Kernel 2.6 compile: Comaptability In-Reply-To: <3FECB105.8357.11A85D-bi+AKbBUZKZeoWH0uzbU5w@public.gmane.org> References: <3FECB105.8357.11A85D@localhost> Message-ID: I can't remember what module in question is being discussed here... But I finally got 2.6 running on my box, with all the creature comfort options (sound, graphics, etc) running. I *think* the things that are needed are: new utils: as mentioned before, new modutils, e2fs, psutil, etc... new modutils: I think you need the newer modutils first before doing 'make module_install'. I had trouble with loading modules even with the new modutils until I recompiled and reinstalled the modules again out of frustration, at which point they worked file. renamed modules: (on my redhat box), under /etc/rc.d/rc.sysinit, look for the line containing: modprobe keybdev modprobe mousedev gotta replace them with modprobe uhci_hcd modprobe usbkbd modprobe usbmouse look for line containing: mount -n -t proc /proc /proc add line afterwards: mount -n -t sysfs /sys /sys (remember to make the directory /sys/ as root before rebooting) Those are the basic things I think that got the mouse and keyboard working. I'm also running Alsa using the OSS compatability. -Jing On Fri, 26 Dec 2003, Paul King wrote: > Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 22:07:01 -0500 > From: Paul King > Reply-To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > Subject: Re: [TLUG]: Kernel 2.6 compile: Comaptability? > > Forget it. I know where it is now. > > I see that I needed to update e2fsprogs and procps, but that was tangential to > the main problem: the modules wouldn't load. I recall this was posted earlier > (by Jing Su) without much reply. I installed the latest e2fsprogs, and got the > same problem. No drivers except what was already compiled in; no mouse; no > sound. There was a complaint from modprobe about some function or other not > being present during the boot sequence. The newer version of modutils didn't > change or eliminate this error. > > e2fsprogs, FWIW, is installed in the latest version (1.35-WIP, whatever "WIP" > means). I see all my partitions, so I would suppose the "WIP" part is > unimportant in my case -- I could find nothing on the abbreviation. > > Subject: [TLUG]: Kernel 2.6 compile: Comaptability? > From: Paul King > To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > Organization: Date sent: 26 Dec 2003 20:02:31 -0500 > Send reply to: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > > > An earlier poster posed what was a good issue: that I ought to check my > > software for compatability with the kernel. OK, so I try to check, but > > the compatability list doesn't appear to be in its usual place. Anyone > > know where this stuff is? > > > > -- > > Paul King > > > > -- > > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > > ========================================================= > Paul King http://www3.sympatico.ca/pking123/ > > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From wildberger-iRg7kjdsKiH3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 27 04:05:12 2003 From: wildberger-iRg7kjdsKiH3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (John Wildberger) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 23:05:12 -0500 Subject: Formatting in C++ (fwd) In-Reply-To: References: <200312261248.36575.wildberger@cogeco.ca> Message-ID: <200312262305.12214.wildberger@cogeco.ca> On December 26, 2003 03:49 pm, Peter L. Peres wrote: > std::cout << setf(uppercase) << setw(2) << hex << (unsigned it)buf[i]; > Peter The setf does not seem to be supported in my distro (mdk9.1) I did use #include and also using namespace std; The error message is: "setf undeclared (first use this function)". John -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 27 04:40:33 2003 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 23:40:33 -0500 Subject: Iptables logging under Debian Message-ID: <20031227044033.GA4921@m433> How do I tone it down? Up till now I've been on ADSL (IStop), and my Netgear router has been blocking the incoming garbage on ports 135 and 80 and etc... iptables never got to see any hits. Now I'm about to move to a condo serviced by Futureway. To complicate the situation, the owners are unhappy with Futureway and have set the wheels in motion to switch from Futureway to Bell. I figure to tough it out on dialup for a couple of months and apply for IStop ADSL right after the switch to Bell. I'm using 295.ca for dialup and it works OK (Guess what their monthly rate is ). My only problem is that iptables is logging to the consoles and I try to stay in text console (80 x 48) as much as possible. Only apps that require a GUI get me to flip over to tty7. If I'm trying to do anything while connected, I see a message each time I get a suspicious hit. I do want to log them, but only to file, not to console. I'm using log-level 6, like so... [0:0] -A UNSOLICITED -j LOG --log-prefix "UNSOLICITED:" --log-level 6 [0:0] -A UNSOLICITED -j DROP The manpage is totally useless. I presume I have to use a different log-level, but which one ? -- Walter Dnes Email users are divided into two classes; 1) Those who have effective spam-blocking 2) Those who wish they did -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From roulton623-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 27 05:14:17 2003 From: roulton623-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Stephen) Date: 27 Dec 2003 00:14:17 -0500 Subject: Now I Know In-Reply-To: <20031224084852.08ff51aa.joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <1072233455.2646.6.camel@CPE0080c8ddf8f4-CM0010954a1036.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com> <20031224084852.08ff51aa.joehill@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <1072502050.2233.4.camel@CPE0080c6f2a89b-CM00003940c461.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com> On Wed, 2003-12-24 at 08:48, JoeHill wrote: > On 23 Dec 2003 21:37:39 -0500 > Stephen wrote: > > > If there is then my problem could be solved by configuring what ever it > > is that might be configured wrong. > > actually, now that I think of it, maybe send me your vid card type and the > contents of your /etc/X11/XF86Config-4 and I'll see if there's anything that > jumps out at me. Thanks again Joe My Vid card is a Radon 7000 with I believe 64 meg of memory on it. I am attaching the file XF86Config-4 file to this email Thanks again Stephen -------------- next part -------------- # File generated by XFdrake. # ********************************************************************** # Refer to the XF86Config man page for details about the format of # this file. # ********************************************************************** Section "Files" # Multiple FontPath entries are allowed (they are concatenated together) # By default, Mandrake 6.0 and later now use a font server independent of # the X server to render fonts. FontPath "unix/:-1" EndSection Section "ServerFlags" #DontZap # disable (server abort) AllowMouseOpenFail # allows the server to start up even if the mouse doesn't work #DontZoom # disable / (resolution switching) EndSection Section "Module" Load "dbe" # Double-Buffering Extension Load "v4l" # Video for Linux Load "extmod" Load "type1" Load "freetype" Load "glx" # 3D layer Load "dri" # direct rendering EndSection Section "DRI" Mode 0666 EndSection Section "InputDevice" Identifier "Keyboard1" Driver "Keyboard" Option "XkbModel" "pc105" Option "XkbLayout" "us" Option "XkbCompat" "" Option "XkbOptions" "" EndSection Section "InputDevice" Identifier "Mouse1" Driver "mouse" Option "Protocol" "IMPS/2" Option "Device" "/dev/usbmouse" Option "Emulate3Buttons" Option "Emulate3Timeout" "50" EndSection Section "Monitor" Identifier "monitor1" VendorName "Generic" ModelName "1280x1024 @ 74 Hz" HorizSync 31.5-79.0 VertRefresh 50-90 # Sony Vaio C1(X,XS,VE,VN)? # 1024x480 @ 85.6 Hz, 48 kHz hsync ModeLine "1024x480" 65.00 1024 1032 1176 1344 480 488 494 563 -hsync -vsync # TV fullscreen mode or DVD fullscreen output. # 768x576 @ 79 Hz, 50 kHz hsync ModeLine "768x576" 50.00 768 832 846 1000 576 590 595 630 # 768x576 @ 100 Hz, 61.6 kHz hsync ModeLine "768x576" 63.07 768 800 960 1024 576 578 590 616 EndSection Section "Device" Identifier "device1" VendorName "ATI" BoardName "ATI Radeon" Driver "radeon" Option "DPMS" EndSection Section "Screen" Identifier "screen1" Device "device1" Monitor "monitor1" DefaultColorDepth 16 Subsection "Display" Depth 8 Modes "1024x768" "800x600" "640x480" EndSubsection Subsection "Display" Depth 15 Modes "1024x768" "800x600" "640x480" EndSubsection Subsection "Display" Depth 16 Modes "1024x768" "800x600" "640x480" EndSubsection Subsection "Display" Depth 24 Modes "1024x768" "800x600" "640x480" EndSubsection EndSection Section "ServerLayout" Identifier "layout1" InputDevice "Keyboard1" "CoreKeyboard" InputDevice "Mouse1" "CorePointer" Screen "screen1" EndSection From tenger-ew0EfhANLmVEfu+5ix1nRw at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 27 05:21:39 2003 From: tenger-ew0EfhANLmVEfu+5ix1nRw at public.gmane.org (Terrence Enger) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 00:21:39 -0500 Subject: Iptables logging under Debian In-Reply-To: <20031227044033.GA4921-DPTsmTRGv3o@public.gmane.org> References: <20031227044033.GA4921@m433> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20031227002139.007121ac@mail.look.ca> At 23:40 2003-12-26 -0500, Walter Dnes wrote: > If > I'm trying to do anything while connected, I see a message each time I > get a suspicious hit. I do want to log them, but only to file, not to > console. I'm using log-level 6, like so... I think you want --log-level info. Then the messages go to, for example, /var/log/messages. HTH. Terry. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From tenger-ew0EfhANLmVEfu+5ix1nRw at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 27 05:49:07 2003 From: tenger-ew0EfhANLmVEfu+5ix1nRw at public.gmane.org (Terrence Enger) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 00:49:07 -0500 Subject: Iptables logging under Debian In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.20031227002139.007121ac-BF7s+LSmFG27ALip+uieHQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20031227044033.GA4921@m433> <3.0.3.32.20031227002139.007121ac@mail.look.ca> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20031227004907.00709ce0@mail.look.ca> At 00:21 2003-12-27 -0500, Terrence Enger wrote: >At 23:40 2003-12-26 -0500, Walter Dnes wrote: >> If >> I'm trying to do anything while connected, I see a message each time I >> get a suspicious hit. I do want to log them, but only to file, not to >> console. I'm using log-level 6, like so... > >I think you want --log-level info. Then the messages go to, >for example, /var/log/messages. > >HTH. >Terry. Whoops, belay that answer. info is 6. Terry. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 27 10:42:24 2003 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter L. Peres) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 12:42:24 +0200 (IST) Subject: Formatting in C++ (fwd) In-Reply-To: <200312262305.12214.wildberger-iRg7kjdsKiH3fQ9qLvQP4Q@public.gmane.org> References: <200312261248.36575.wildberger@cogeco.ca> <200312262305.12214.wildberger@cogeco.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, 26 Dec 2003, John Wildberger wrote: > On December 26, 2003 03:49 pm, Peter L. Peres wrote: > > std::cout << setf(uppercase) << setw(2) << hex << (unsigned it)buf[i]; > > Peter > The setf does not seem to be supported in my distro (mdk9.1) > I did use #include and also > using namespace std; > The error message is: "setf undeclared (first use this function)". setf is in ios:: Maybe your implementation has it elsewhere. C++ is an interesting beast when it comes to portability ... you can try to find the definition by doing something like: (cd /usr/include; grep -E "[ \t]ios::ios" g++/*.h) which yields ios::ios in on my system. good luck, Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From pmills-5bG9SNWDbRX3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 27 13:08:49 2003 From: pmills-5bG9SNWDbRX3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Phillip Mills) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 08:08:49 -0500 Subject: City Of Toronto Message-ID: I haven't noticed any messages lately about efforts to get a Linux foothold at the City of Toronto. Anyone interested should read an article on page A14 of this morning's Globe & Mail. Quote: "The city's problem is that 14,000 of its 17,500 computers are of 1999 vintage or older, which means that the operating system they run on is Microsoft Windows NT, a program which the software company will no longer support after some time next year, and they do not have the capacity to run on the next generation of software, Windows XP, which the city plans to switch to." Tortured grammar aside, how many things "wrong" can *you* find in that sentence? :-) ........................ Phillip Mills Multi-platform software development (416) 224-0714 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 27 14:46:44 2003 From: davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (David J Patrick) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 09:46:44 -0500 Subject: City Of Toronto In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3FED9B54.4090600@sympatico.ca> Phillip Mills wrote: > I haven't noticed any messages lately about efforts to get a Linux > foothold at the City of Toronto. Anyone interested should read an > article on page A14 of this morning's Globe & Mail. > > Quote: > "The city's problem is that 14,000 of its 17,500 computers are of 1999 > vintage or older, which means that the operating system they run on is > Microsoft Windows NT, a program which the software company will no > longer support after some time next year, and they do not have the > capacity to run on the next generation of software, Windows XP, which > the city plans to switch to." > > Tortured grammar aside, how many things "wrong" can *you* find in that > sentence? :-) > Yikes ! It sounds like a golden opportunity is starting to rust ! The earlier thread "Toronto Municipal Open Source Revolution, anyone ?" had a flash of enthusiasm and then very little follow through. Who else is going to champion this cause, if not us ? How can we keep the flame under this one ? djp -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From robert-yzlPDbdf3LosA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 27 14:59:15 2003 From: robert-yzlPDbdf3LosA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Robert McDonald) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 09:59:15 -0500 Subject: City Of Toronto References: Message-ID: <010101c3cc8a$0381d7a0$0b01a8c0@win98p4> I had put up a wiki for TLUG to use for the purpose of putting together a proposal for the city of Toronto and a total of 1 ( ONE ) user was able ( or willing ) to log in to it. http://www.lampware.info/tiki/tiki-custom_home.php The site could use some help with fine tuning and I would be happy to setup additional admins for that purpose. It's seems the Group is anxious to debate the pro's and cons via email but when it comes to getting a Linux proposal for the city of Toronto however a lot of the talk is just that, talk. Actions speak louder than words. Here is a "World Class City" looking seriously at saving millions of dollars.. http://news.com.com/2100-1016_3-1010740.html?tag=st_rn Perhaps when it comes to the City and politics talk is exactly what politicians do best. Unfortunatley some of us live in the real world where "talk is cheap" R M ----- Original Message ----- From: Phillip Mills To: Sent: Saturday, December 27, 2003 8:08 AM Subject: [TLUG]: City Of Toronto > I haven't noticed any messages lately about efforts to get a Linux > foothold at the City of Toronto. Anyone interested should read an > article on page A14 of this morning's Globe & Mail. > > Quote: > "The city's problem is that 14,000 of its 17,500 computers are of 1999 > vintage or older, which means that the operating system they run on is > Microsoft Windows NT, a program which the software company will no > longer support after some time next year, and they do not have the > capacity to run on the next generation of software, Windows XP, which > the city plans to switch to." > > Tortured grammar aside, how many things "wrong" can *you* find in that > sentence? :-) > > ........................ > Phillip Mills > Multi-platform software development > (416) 224-0714 > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lalune-zC6tqtfhjqE at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 27 16:00:08 2003 From: lalune-zC6tqtfhjqE at public.gmane.org (Anita T.) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 11:00:08 -0500 Subject: City Of Toronto In-Reply-To: <010101c3cc8a$0381d7a0$0b01a8c0-VMKVZpoZl3s@public.gmane.org> References: <010101c3cc8a$0381d7a0$0b01a8c0@win98p4> Message-ID: <3FEDAC88.6080701@linux.ca> Robert McDonald wrote: > http://www.lampware.info/tiki/tiki-custom_home.php The site could use some > help with fine tuning and I would be happy to setup additional admins for > that purpose. One small problem I found when I first went to the site was that I wasn't sure I was where I was supposed to be. It might be helpful to at least replace the default Tiki stuff with some background info on what its purpose is and how people can contribute to the project. Anita -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From pmills-5bG9SNWDbRX3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 27 16:05:03 2003 From: pmills-5bG9SNWDbRX3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Phillip Mills) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 11:05:03 -0500 Subject: City Of Toronto In-Reply-To: <010101c3cc8a$0381d7a0$0b01a8c0-VMKVZpoZl3s@public.gmane.org> References: <010101c3cc8a$0381d7a0$0b01a8c0@win98p4> Message-ID: <6E976114-3886-11D8-9DAA-00039310151E@axxent.ca> On Saturday, December 27, 2003, at 09:59 AM, Robert McDonald wrote: > I had put up a wiki for TLUG to use for the purpose of putting > together a > proposal for the city of Toronto and a total of 1 ( ONE ) user was > able ( or > willing ) to log in to it. I'm interested and I'm reasonably capable when it comes to writing a few sentences, a letter, what have you.... On the tech side, I'm a developer. It's been many years since I did system administration or configuration for anyone but myself...and back then it wasn't usually Linux. Point being, others seemed just as motivated...and I'd trust some one else to do show-and-tell about a major plan for OS migration and conversion rather than myself. (I'd be more likely to get onto the subject of migrating your server applications to a JBoss/PostgreSQL environment.) During the earlier discussion, I remember someone mentioning political contacts on Council. Having that leverage sounded like a better idea than blindly searching for someone who would consider a cold-call proposal. But if those contacts aren't interested, the name of an acting IT head is in the Globe article. Anyone feel like proposing an actual plan of attack we can all throw darts at? :-) ........................ Phillip Mills Multi-platform software development (416) 224-0714 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From anton-F0u+EriZ6ihBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 27 17:26:04 2003 From: anton-F0u+EriZ6ihBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Anton Markov) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 12:26:04 -0500 Subject: Now I Know In-Reply-To: <1072502050.2233.4.camel-dKL88l7hNfq+7LdUnWLbWeRNwQ1nxAZKTJmjD0f5kqEKu2YovVVDERgSKFK9O5hcLMHrShElKjA@public.gmane.org> References: <1072233455.2646.6.camel@CPE0080c8ddf8f4-CM0010954a1036.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com> <20031224084852.08ff51aa.joehill@sympatico.ca> <1072502050.2233.4.camel@CPE0080c6f2a89b-CM00003940c461.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com> Message-ID: <3FEDC0AC.1050107@truxtar.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Hi Stephen, I have the identical video card as you, so here is what my XF86Config file says about it (I am running RedHat9, which seems fairly close to Mandrake as far as X configuration goes): Stephen wrote: > Section "Files" > # Multiple FontPath entries are allowed (they are concatenated together) > # By default, Mandrake 6.0 and later now use a font server independent of > # the X server to render fonts. > FontPath "unix/:-1" > EndSection I have "FontPath "unix/:7100". It's supposed to specify the socket to the X Font Server, so try changing -1 to 7100 and see if that makes a difference. > > Section "Module" > Load "dbe" # Double-Buffering Extension > Load "v4l" # Video for Linux > Load "extmod" > Load "type1" > Load "freetype" > Load "glx" # 3D layer > Load "dri" # direct rendering > EndSection Section "Module" Load "dbe" Load "extmod" Load "fbdevhw" Load "glx" Load "record" Load "freetype" Load "type1" Load "dri" EndSection Everything else seems fine (adjusted for our different monitors/distribution). - -- Anton Markov <("anton" + "@" + "truxtar" + "." + "com")> GnuPG Key fingerprint = 5546 A6E2 1FFB 9BB8 15C3 CE34 46B7 8D93 3AD1 44B4 "The difference between insanity and genius is measured only by success." - Some bad guy from 007 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQE/7cC5RreNkzrRRLQRAkVgAKCVfO5sK95m77BSr3RBv46izHpu6ACeOzRI 09kBH72+MaGEuvNUfHcg9TY= =K2wr -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 27 18:23:45 2003 From: hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org (Howard Gibson) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 13:23:45 -0500 Subject: City Of Toronto In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20031227132345.1ced3249.hgibson@eol.ca> On Sat, 27 Dec 2003 08:08:49 -0500 Phillip Mills wrote: > I haven't noticed any messages lately about efforts to get a Linux > foothold at the City of Toronto. Anyone interested should read an > article on page A14 of this morning's Globe & Mail. > > Quote: > "The city's problem is that 14,000 of its 17,500 computers are of 1999 > vintage or older, which means that the operating system they run on is > Microsoft Windows NT, a program which the software company will no > longer support after some time next year, and they do not have the > capacity to run on the next generation of software, Windows XP, which > the city plans to switch to." > > Tortured grammar aside, how many things "wrong" can *you* find in that > sentence? :-) Phillip, My 1998 computer works okay as long as I do not launch KDE. I have added a lot of RAM since I bought the thing, 64MB to 256MB. My second hand laptop has 64MB of RAM. I am running Red Hat 8 on both machines. I am here to tell you that 64MB is not enough for Red Hat 8. If I cannot get more than 64MB into the laptop, this will be its final upgrade. I suspect that if you install the latest version of Linux onto these old machines, you will teach a bunch of people to hate Linux. A clever administrator may get these machines to work efficiently, but new machines are probably easier and more reliable, Linux or no Linux. -- Howard Gibson hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org howard-42qnO8ePF9cV+D8aMU/kSg at public.gmane.org http://home.eol.ca/~hgibson -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 27 18:30:03 2003 From: fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Fraser Campbell) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 13:30:03 -0500 Subject: City Of Toronto In-Reply-To: <20031227132345.1ced3249.hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20031227132345.1ced3249.hgibson@eol.ca> Message-ID: <200312271330.03397.fraser@wehave.net> On December 27, 2003 01:23 pm, Howard Gibson wrote: > I suspect that if you install the latest version of Linux onto these old > machines, you will teach a bunch of people to hate Linux. A clever > administrator may get these machines to work efficiently, but new machines > are probably easier and more reliable, Linux or no Linux. Desktop installs are a waste of time for any organization of significant size. For thin client installs older PCs (probably even 486s) are more than capable of running the latest and greatest stuff, you just run the heavy stuff on the server. -- Fraser Campbell http://www.wehave.net/ Georgetown, Ontario, Canada Debian GNU/Linux -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From wildberger-iRg7kjdsKiH3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 27 18:27:53 2003 From: wildberger-iRg7kjdsKiH3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (John Wildberger) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 13:27:53 -0500 Subject: Formatting in C++ (fwd) In-Reply-To: References: <200312262305.12214.wildberger@cogeco.ca> Message-ID: <200312271327.53407.wildberger@cogeco.ca> On December 27, 2003 05:42 am, Peter L. Peres wrote: > setf is in ios:: Maybe your implementation has it elsewhere. C++ is an > interesting beast when it comes to portability ... you can try to find the > definition by doing something like: > > (cd /usr/include; grep -E "[ \t]ios::ios" g++/*.h) > > which yields ios::ios in on my system. > This turns out to be a real paper chase. I have included , and a few more. With this, there should not be any more need to hunt down where 'setf' is located. Neither should there be any need to find where the fmtflags are or where ios happens to be. Any conceivable header file related to have "uppercase" working is included in the above header files. This tread has produced a lot of suggestions, some restricted to simple words like , std::cout.setf ,, etc, or suggestions to read some books. What is really missing is the correct syntax of how to make "hex uppercase" work. Fundamentally I don't really care if a hex number is displayed in upper or lower case. It is just my curiosity to find out how it is being done. John -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jingsu-26n5VD7DAF2Tm46uYYfjYg at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 27 19:26:35 2003 From: jingsu-26n5VD7DAF2Tm46uYYfjYg at public.gmane.org (Jing Su) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 14:26:35 -0500 Subject: City Of Toronto In-Reply-To: <200312271330.03397.fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org> References: <20031227132345.1ced3249.hgibson@eol.ca> <200312271330.03397.fraser@wehave.net> Message-ID: > On December 27, 2003 01:23 pm, Howard Gibson wrote: > > > I suspect that if you install the latest version of Linux onto these old > > machines, you will teach a bunch of people to hate Linux. A clever > > administrator may get these machines to work efficiently, but new machines > > are probably easier and more reliable, Linux or no Linux. > > Desktop installs are a waste of time for any organization of significant size. > For thin client installs older PCs (probably even 486s) are more than capable > of running the latest and greatest stuff, you just run the heavy stuff on the > server. I second that. I have a Pentium120 (!!!) Laptop with 16 (!!!) megs of Ram. I loaded Slack, bare X, and VNC, and thin client into my Desktop. Sure runs nice and smooth. Won't be able to play video clips and MP3s, but hey, we're talking about government computers here. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 27 19:24:59 2003 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 14:24:59 -0500 Subject: City Of Toronto In-Reply-To: <6E976114-3886-11D8-9DAA-00039310151E-5bG9SNWDbRX3fQ9qLvQP4Q@public.gmane.org> References: <010101c3cc8a$0381d7a0$0b01a8c0@win98p4> <6E976114-3886-11D8-9DAA-00039310151E@axxent.ca> Message-ID: <20031227192459.GA20696@node1.opengeometry.net> On Sat, Dec 27, 2003 at 11:05:03AM -0500, Phillip Mills wrote: > Anyone feel like proposing an actual plan of attack we can all throw > darts at? :-) These kind of thing is best discussed over beer. Any meeting place you guys have in mind? If it's downtown, then somewhere TTC friendly... -- William Park, Open Geometry Consulting, Linux solution for data management and processing. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From rbrockway-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 27 19:53:51 2003 From: rbrockway-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 14:53:51 -0500 (EST) Subject: City Of Toronto Message-ID: On Sat, 27 Dec 2003, David J Patrick wrote: > Yikes ! > It sounds like a golden opportunity is starting to rust ! > The earlier thread "Toronto Municipal Open Source Revolution, anyone ?" > had a flash of enthusiasm and then very little follow through. I honestly think the time of year had something to do with this. We concluded that nothing will be happening in the city council until sometime in January. At this point I'd like to propose a face to face meeting for interested companies and individuals to discuss the type of approach that could be made to the city. I propose the following meeting: Where: Ginger 2 restaurant 403 Yonge Street, Toronto, ON M5B 1S9 When: 7pm, Monday Jan 12 2003. Please RSVP to me by Monday Jan 5 so we know how many people are coming. Rob -- Robert Brockway Senior Technical Consultant, OpenTrend Solutions Ltd. Phone: 416-669-3073, Email: rbrockway-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org, http://www.opentrend.net OpenTrend Solutions: Reliable, secure solutions to real world problems. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From rbrockway-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 27 20:06:09 2003 From: rbrockway-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 15:06:09 -0500 (EST) Subject: City Of Toronto In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 27 Dec 2003, Robert Brockway wrote: > When: 7pm, Monday Jan 12 2003. Hmmm...make that 2004 of course :) Rob -- Robert Brockway Senior Technical Consultant, OpenTrend Solutions Ltd. Phone: 416-669-3073, Email: rbrockway-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org, http://www.opentrend.net OpenTrend Solutions: Reliable, secure solutions to real world problems. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From rbrockway-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 27 20:15:30 2003 From: rbrockway-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 15:15:30 -0500 (EST) Subject: City Of Toronto In-Reply-To: <200312271330.03397.fraser-Txk5XLRqZ6CsTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org> References: <20031227132345.1ced3249.hgibson@eol.ca> <200312271330.03397.fraser@wehave.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 27 Dec 2003, Fraser Campbell wrote: > Desktop installs are a waste of time for any organization of significant > size. For thin client installs older PCs (probably even 486s) are more > than capable of running the latest and greatest stuff, you just run the > heavy stuff on the server. Absolutely. Many times I've seen people amazed with the capabilites of a thinclient. Too many people are still convinced that a computer needs to be near a person to be useful[1]. [1] Of course the thinclient itself is a computer but little processing is done there. More importantly, no important data is saved there. One of the most important things about a thinclients is that you don't care if they break since they are all interchangeable from the users point of view. Rob -- Robert Brockway Senior Technical Consultant, OpenTrend Solutions Ltd. Phone: 416-669-3073, Email: rbrockway-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org, http://www.opentrend.net OpenTrend Solutions: Reliable, secure solutions to real world problems. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 27 20:30:54 2003 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 15:30:54 -0500 Subject: City Of Toronto In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3FEDEBFE.20902@rogers.com> Robert Brockway wrote: > I propose the following meeting: > > Where: Ginger 2 restaurant > 403 Yonge Street, > Toronto, ON > M5B 1S9 > > When: 7pm, Monday Jan 12 2003. We'll realy have to hustle, to get their on time! ;-) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From roulton623-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 27 20:53:57 2003 From: roulton623-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Stephen) Date: 27 Dec 2003 15:53:57 -0500 Subject: Thanks Anton In-Reply-To: <3FEDC0AC.1050107-F0u+EriZ6ihBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <1072233455.2646.6.camel@CPE0080c8ddf8f4-CM0010954a1036.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com> <20031224084852.08ff51aa.joehill@sympatico.ca> <1072502050.2233.4.camel@CPE0080c6f2a89b-CM00003940c461.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com> <3FEDC0AC.1050107@truxtar.com> Message-ID: <1072558433.2071.4.camel@CPE0080c6f2a89b-CM00003940c461.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com> I tried your suggestion of changing -1 to 7100 and I lost the graphic environment. I was hoping that would work because I had Redhat 9 Shrike up and running at one time and I know how similar that Mandrake is to it. I had to change the XF86 config file back. Thanks again any suggestions are welcome Stephen Oulton -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From c.f.a.johnson-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 27 21:05:50 2003 From: c.f.a.johnson-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Chris F.A. Johnson) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 16:05:50 -0500 (EST) Subject: City Of Toronto In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 27 Dec 2003, Robert Brockway wrote: > On Sat, 27 Dec 2003, David J Patrick wrote: > > > Yikes ! > > It sounds like a golden opportunity is starting to rust ! > > The earlier thread "Toronto Municipal Open Source Revolution, anyone ?" > > had a flash of enthusiasm and then very little follow through. > > I honestly think the time of year had something to do with this. We > concluded that nothing will be happening in the city council until > sometime in January. > > At this point I'd like to propose a face to face meeting for interested > companies and individuals to discuss the type of approach that could be > made to the city. > > I propose the following meeting: > > Where: Ginger 2 restaurant > 403 Yonge Street, > Toronto, ON > M5B 1S9 > > When: 7pm, Monday Jan 12 2003. > > Please RSVP to me by Monday Jan 5 so we know how many people are coming. I'd like to go, but I have another meeting that evening. -- Chris F.A. Johnson ================================================================= cfaj-uVmiyxGBW52XDw4h08c5KA at public.gmane.org http://cfaj.freeshell.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 27 19:38:41 2003 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter L. Peres) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 21:38:41 +0200 (IST) Subject: Formatting in C++ (fwd) In-Reply-To: <200312271327.53407.wildberger-iRg7kjdsKiH3fQ9qLvQP4Q@public.gmane.org> References: <200312262305.12214.wildberger@cogeco.ca> <200312271327.53407.wildberger@cogeco.ca> Message-ID: On Sat, 27 Dec 2003, John Wildberger wrote: > Fundamentally I don't really care if a hex number is displayed in upper or > lower case. It is just my curiosity to find out how it is being done. > John Would it help if I'd say that I prefer to use form() for this ? ;-) The << overloading is supposed to make your life easier, not the other way around. Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From rbrockway-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 27 21:17:39 2003 From: rbrockway-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 16:17:39 -0500 (EST) Subject: City Of Toronto In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 27 Dec 2003, Chris F.A. Johnson wrote: > I'd like to go, but I have another meeting that evening. Unfortunately, for any given time picked, someone will have another committment :( There will definately be more sessions. Rob -- Robert Brockway Senior Technical Consultant, OpenTrend Solutions Ltd. Phone: 416-669-3073, Email: rbrockway-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org, http://www.opentrend.net OpenTrend Solutions: Reliable, secure solutions to real world problems. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From pking123-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 27 21:39:33 2003 From: pking123-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (Paul King) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 16:39:33 -0500 Subject: Kernel 2.6 compile: Comaptability In-Reply-To: References: <3FECB105.8357.11A85D@localhost> Message-ID: <3FEDB5C5.2273.2487CE@localhost> Well, things are slowly coming together. I can boot into the new kernel, and the kernel no longer complains about missing functions. But it wasn't straightforward. It looks as though the module utilities depended on an older version of modutils, with their executables renamed to .old. Second, the default installation for these new utils was going to be under /usr/local/sbin. And if it went to /sbin, it would clobber all files in its path without renaming them with .old extensions first. So that had to be done by hand, using mv. Paul King Date sent: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 22:25:23 -0500 From: Jing Su To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Subject: Re: [TLUG]: Kernel 2.6 compile: Comaptability Send reply to: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > I can't remember what module in question is being discussed here... > But I finally got 2.6 running on my box, with all the creature comfort > options (sound, graphics, etc) running. > > I *think* the things that are needed are: > > new utils: as mentioned before, new modutils, e2fs, psutil, etc... > > new modutils: I think you need the newer modutils first before doing > 'make module_install'. I had trouble with loading modules even with the > new modutils until I recompiled and reinstalled the modules again out of > frustration, at which point they worked file. > > renamed modules: (on my redhat box), > under /etc/rc.d/rc.sysinit, look for the line containing: > modprobe keybdev > modprobe mousedev > gotta replace them with > modprobe uhci_hcd > modprobe usbkbd > modprobe usbmouse > look for line containing: > mount -n -t proc /proc /proc > add line afterwards: > mount -n -t sysfs /sys /sys > (remember to make the directory /sys/ as root before rebooting) > > Those are the basic things I think that got the mouse and keyboard > working. I'm also running Alsa using the OSS compatability. > > -Jing > > On Fri, 26 Dec 2003, Paul King wrote: > > > Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 22:07:01 -0500 > > From: Paul King > > Reply-To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > > To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > > Subject: Re: [TLUG]: Kernel 2.6 compile: Comaptability? > > > > Forget it. I know where it is now. > > > > I see that I needed to update e2fsprogs and procps, but that was tangential to > > the main problem: the modules wouldn't load. I recall this was posted earlier > > (by Jing Su) without much reply. I installed the latest e2fsprogs, and got the > > same problem. No drivers except what was already compiled in; no mouse; no > > sound. There was a complaint from modprobe about some function or other not > > being present during the boot sequence. The newer version of modutils didn't > > change or eliminate this error. > > > > e2fsprogs, FWIW, is installed in the latest version (1.35-WIP, whatever "WIP" > > means). I see all my partitions, so I would suppose the "WIP" part is > > unimportant in my case -- I could find nothing on the abbreviation. > > > > > An earlier poster posed what was a good issue: that I ought to check my > > > software for compatability with the kernel. OK, so I try to check, but the > > > compatability list doesn't appear to be in its usual place. Anyone know > > > where this stuff is? > > > > > > -- > > > Paul King > > > > > > -- > > > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > > > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > > > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > > ========================================================= Paul King http://www3.sympatico.ca/pking123/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jingsu-26n5VD7DAF2Tm46uYYfjYg at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 27 21:54:32 2003 From: jingsu-26n5VD7DAF2Tm46uYYfjYg at public.gmane.org (Jing Su) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 16:54:32 -0500 Subject: Kernel 2.6 compile: Comaptability In-Reply-To: <3FEDB5C5.2273.2487CE-bi+AKbBUZKZeoWH0uzbU5w@public.gmane.org> References: <3FECB105.8357.11A85D@localhost> <3FEDB5C5.2273.2487CE@localhost> Message-ID: For those that are treading down this path.... the new modutils needs to be ./configure --prefix=/ to put it into the usual paths. Then, do a 'make moveold'. That does the .old renaming for you. On Sat, 27 Dec 2003, Paul King wrote: > Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 16:39:33 -0500 > From: Paul King > Reply-To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > Subject: Re: [TLUG]: Kernel 2.6 compile: Comaptability > > Well, things are slowly coming together. I can boot into the new kernel, and > the kernel no longer complains about missing functions. But it wasn't > straightforward. It looks as though the module utilities depended on an older > version of modutils, with their executables renamed to .old. Second, the > default installation for these new utils was going to be under /usr/local/sbin. > And if it went to /sbin, it would clobber all files in its path without > renaming them with .old extensions first. So that had to be done by hand, using > mv. > > Paul King > > Date sent: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 22:25:23 -0500 > From: Jing Su > To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > Subject: Re: [TLUG]: Kernel 2.6 compile: Comaptability > Send reply to: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > > > I can't remember what module in question is being discussed here... > > But I finally got 2.6 running on my box, with all the creature comfort > > options (sound, graphics, etc) running. > > > > I *think* the things that are needed are: > > > > new utils: as mentioned before, new modutils, e2fs, psutil, etc... > > > > new modutils: I think you need the newer modutils first before doing > > 'make module_install'. I had trouble with loading modules even with the > > new modutils until I recompiled and reinstalled the modules again out of > > frustration, at which point they worked file. > > > > renamed modules: (on my redhat box), > > under /etc/rc.d/rc.sysinit, look for the line containing: > > modprobe keybdev > > modprobe mousedev > > gotta replace them with > > modprobe uhci_hcd > > modprobe usbkbd > > modprobe usbmouse > > look for line containing: > > mount -n -t proc /proc /proc > > add line afterwards: > > mount -n -t sysfs /sys /sys > > (remember to make the directory /sys/ as root before rebooting) > > > > Those are the basic things I think that got the mouse and keyboard > > working. I'm also running Alsa using the OSS compatability. > > > > -Jing > > > > On Fri, 26 Dec 2003, Paul King wrote: > > > > > Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 22:07:01 -0500 > > > From: Paul King > > > Reply-To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > > > To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > > > Subject: Re: [TLUG]: Kernel 2.6 compile: Comaptability? > > > > > > Forget it. I know where it is now. > > > > > > I see that I needed to update e2fsprogs and procps, but that was tangential to > > > the main problem: the modules wouldn't load. I recall this was posted earlier > > > (by Jing Su) without much reply. I installed the latest e2fsprogs, and got the > > > same problem. No drivers except what was already compiled in; no mouse; no > > > sound. There was a complaint from modprobe about some function or other not > > > being present during the boot sequence. The newer version of modutils didn't > > > change or eliminate this error. > > > > > > e2fsprogs, FWIW, is installed in the latest version (1.35-WIP, whatever "WIP" > > > means). I see all my partitions, so I would suppose the "WIP" part is > > > unimportant in my case -- I could find nothing on the abbreviation. > > > > > > > An earlier poster posed what was a good issue: that I ought to check my > > > > software for compatability with the kernel. OK, so I try to check, but the > > > > compatability list doesn't appear to be in its usual place. Anyone know > > > > where this stuff is? > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Paul King > > > > > > > > -- > > > > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > > > > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > > > > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > > > > ========================================================= > Paul King http://www3.sympatico.ca/pking123/ > > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From wildberger-iRg7kjdsKiH3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 27 23:04:36 2003 From: wildberger-iRg7kjdsKiH3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (John Wildberger) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 18:04:36 -0500 Subject: Formatting in C++ (fwd) In-Reply-To: References: <200312271327.53407.wildberger@cogeco.ca> Message-ID: <200312271804.36479.wildberger@cogeco.ca> On December 27, 2003 02:38 pm, Peter L. Peres wrote: > Would it help if I'd say that I prefer to use form() for this ? ;-) > > The << overloading is supposed to make your life easier, not the other > way around. > > Peter This gets better with every turn. ( for me more and more mysterious). What does form() do? How can I use it ? You also suggested some time back that I should spend time to index my system. What exactly did you have in mind? Surely, I cannot go over every item in my system and catalog what each item means and what it does. Years would not be enough to accomplish this. John -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From rbrockway-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 27 23:34:00 2003 From: rbrockway-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 18:34:00 -0500 (EST) Subject: Kernel 2.6 compile: Comaptability In-Reply-To: <3FEDB5C5.2273.2487CE-bi+AKbBUZKZeoWH0uzbU5w@public.gmane.org> References: <3FECB105.8357.11A85D@localhost> <3FEDB5C5.2273.2487CE@localhost> Message-ID: On Sat, 27 Dec 2003, Paul King wrote: > Well, things are slowly coming together. I can boot into the new kernel, and > the kernel no longer complains about missing functions. But it wasn't > straightforward. It looks as though the module utilities depended on an older > version of modutils, with their executables renamed to .old. Second, the > default installation for these new utils was going to be under /usr/local/sbin. > And if it went to /sbin, it would clobber all files in its path without > renaming them with .old extensions first. So that had to be done by hand, using > mv. FWIW, I've been running a Debian Unstable system with a 2.6.0-test11 kernel and been having no problems with system utils[1]. This is a workstation, servers are staying at 2.4 for the forseeable future. [1] xosview is broken but this is hardly a game-stopper for me :) Interestingly it "runs" fine but fails to display at all. It'll happily sit their monitoring the system & displaying nothing indefinitely. Rob -- Robert Brockway Senior Technical Consultant, OpenTrend Solutions Ltd. Phone: 416-669-3073, Email: rbrockway-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org, http://www.opentrend.net OpenTrend Solutions: Reliable, secure solutions to real world problems. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 27 23:49:54 2003 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter L. Peres) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 01:49:54 +0200 (IST) Subject: Formatting in C++ (fwd) In-Reply-To: <200312271804.36479.wildberger-iRg7kjdsKiH3fQ9qLvQP4Q@public.gmane.org> References: <200312271327.53407.wildberger@cogeco.ca> <200312271804.36479.wildberger@cogeco.ca> Message-ID: On Sat, 27 Dec 2003, John Wildberger wrote: > On December 27, 2003 02:38 pm, Peter L. Peres wrote: > > > Would it help if I'd say that I prefer to use form() for this ? ;-) > > > > The << overloading is supposed to make your life easier, not the other > > way around. > > > > Peter > This gets better with every turn. ( for me more and more mysterious). What > does form() do? How can I use it ? #include cout << form( "%02X", buf[i] ); This should be in libio (i.e. do -lio when linking if the compiler complains). Why not do info iostream and spend some time reading (consider that this is not a tutorial - you are reading manual pages). I hope that you know how hopeless it is to learn C++, or any language, from 5 email messages and a few manual pages. > You also suggested some time back that I should spend time to index my > system. What exactly did you have in mind? Surely, I cannot go over > every item in my system and catalog what each item means and what it > does. Years would not be enough to accomplish this. ;-) I meant for you to activate whatever your system uses for indexing program and let it run (can take two days). It could be glimpse or htdig. I use htdig. Then you have a search form which you access locally with your browser and can do text searches on your own system. Obviously this includes infos, howtos, and most documents you have on your system. I have almost 2GB indexed and I can find everything (eventually). hope this helps, Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From pking123-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 27 23:54:38 2003 From: pking123-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (Paul King) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 18:54:38 -0500 Subject: Kernel 2.6 compile: Comaptability In-Reply-To: References: <3FEDB5C5.2273.2487CE@localhost> Message-ID: <3FEDD56E.25746.A03314@localhost> Good advice, although I had my own way with it, and it works fine. Now to work out the module problem. I still haven't updated /etc/modules.conf Thanks for the advice so far. Paul King Date sent: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 16:54:32 -0500 From: Jing Su To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Subject: Re: [TLUG]: Kernel 2.6 compile: Comaptability Send reply to: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > For those that are treading down this path.... > > the new modutils needs to be ./configure --prefix=/ to put it into the > usual paths. Then, do a 'make moveold'. That does the .old renaming for > you. > > On Sat, 27 Dec 2003, Paul King wrote: > > > Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 16:39:33 -0500 > > From: Paul King > > Reply-To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > > To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > > Subject: Re: [TLUG]: Kernel 2.6 compile: Comaptability > > > > Well, things are slowly coming together. I can boot into the new kernel, and > > the kernel no longer complains about missing functions. But it wasn't > > straightforward. It looks as though the module utilities depended on an older > > version of modutils, with their executables renamed to .old. Second, the > > default installation for these new utils was going to be under > > /usr/local/sbin. And if it went to /sbin, it would clobber all files in its > > path without renaming them with .old extensions first. So that had to be done > > by hand, using mv. > > > > Paul King > > > > Date sent: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 22:25:23 -0500 > > From: Jing Su > > To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > > Subject: Re: [TLUG]: Kernel 2.6 compile: Comaptability > > Send reply to: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > > > > > I can't remember what module in question is being discussed here... > > > But I finally got 2.6 running on my box, with all the creature comfort > > > options (sound, graphics, etc) running. > > > > > > I *think* the things that are needed are: > > > > > > new utils: as mentioned before, new modutils, e2fs, psutil, etc... > > > > > > new modutils: I think you need the newer modutils first before doing > > > 'make module_install'. I had trouble with loading modules even with the new > > > modutils until I recompiled and reinstalled the modules again out of > > > frustration, at which point they worked file. > > > > > > renamed modules: (on my redhat box), > > > under /etc/rc.d/rc.sysinit, look for the line containing: > > > modprobe keybdev > > > modprobe mousedev > > > gotta replace them with > > > modprobe uhci_hcd > > > modprobe usbkbd > > > modprobe usbmouse > > > look for line containing: > > > mount -n -t proc /proc /proc > > > add line afterwards: > > > mount -n -t sysfs /sys /sys > > > (remember to make the directory /sys/ as root before rebooting) > > > > > > Those are the basic things I think that got the mouse and keyboard > > > working. I'm also running Alsa using the OSS compatability. > > > > > > -Jing > > > > > > On Fri, 26 Dec 2003, Paul King wrote: > > > > > > > Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 22:07:01 -0500 > > > > From: Paul King > > > > Reply-To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > > > > To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > > > > Subject: Re: [TLUG]: Kernel 2.6 compile: Comaptability? > > > > > > > > Forget it. I know where it is now. > > > > > > > > I see that I needed to update e2fsprogs and procps, but that was > > > > tangential to the main problem: the modules wouldn't load. I recall this > > > > was posted earlier (by Jing Su) without much reply. I installed the latest > > > > e2fsprogs, and got the same problem. No drivers except what was already > > > > compiled in; no mouse; no sound. There was a complaint from modprobe about > > > > some function or other not being present during the boot sequence. The > > > > newer version of modutils didn't change or eliminate this error. > > > > > > > > e2fsprogs, FWIW, is installed in the latest version (1.35-WIP, whatever > > > > "WIP" means). I see all my partitions, so I would suppose the "WIP" part > > > > is unimportant in my case -- I could find nothing on the abbreviation. > > > > > > > > > An earlier poster posed what was a good issue: that I ought to check my > > > > > software for compatability with the kernel. OK, so I try to check, but > > > > > the compatability list doesn't appear to be in its usual place. Anyone > > > > > know where this stuff is? > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > Paul King > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > > > > > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > > > > > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > > > > > > ========================================================= > > Paul King http://www3.sympatico.ca/pking123/ > > > > > > -- > > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml ========================================================= Paul King http://www3.sympatico.ca/pking123/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 28 06:11:45 2003 From: davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (David J Patrick) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 01:11:45 -0500 Subject: City Of Toronto In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3FEE7421.3060803@sympatico.ca> Robert Brockway wrote: >On Sat, 27 Dec 2003, David J Patrick wrote: > > > >>Yikes ! >> It sounds like a golden opportunity is starting to rust ! >>The earlier thread "Toronto Municipal Open Source Revolution, anyone ?" >>had a flash of enthusiasm and then very little follow through. >> >> > >I honestly think the time of year had something to do with this. We >concluded that nothing will be happening in the city council until >sometime in January. > > Y'know, I agree with that. It's by no means too late. >At this point I'd like to propose a face to face meeting for interested >companies and individuals to discuss the type of approach that could be >made to the city. > >I propose the following meeting: > >Where: Ginger 2 restaurant > 403 Yonge Street, > Toronto, ON > M5B 1S9 > >When: 7pm, Monday Jan 12 2003. > >Please RSVP to me by Monday Jan 5 so we know how many people are coming. > >Rob > > > I'll try and make it Monday .. unless .. we dedicate the post TLUG brewskie to the municipal cause on the 9th ? rather than our usual frivolity ? djp -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 28 06:18:36 2003 From: davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (David J Patrick) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 01:18:36 -0500 Subject: City Of Toronto In-Reply-To: <010101c3cc8a$0381d7a0$0b01a8c0-VMKVZpoZl3s@public.gmane.org> References: <010101c3cc8a$0381d7a0$0b01a8c0@win98p4> Message-ID: <3FEE75BC.4020700@sympatico.ca> Robert McDonald wrote: >I had put up a wiki for TLUG to use for the purpose of putting together a >proposal for the city of Toronto and a total of 1 ( ONE ) user was able ( or >willing ) to log in to it. > > Aw man ! I was unsucessful when you first put it up and contunue to fail the registration ! Using Mozilla 1.5xft and all cookies enabled (for the occasion) "Wrong registration code" I'm certainly willing, nay eager, to. and I'll try again. >http://www.lampware.info/tiki/tiki-custom_home.php The site could use some >help with fine tuning and I would be happy to setup additional admins for >that purpose. > >It's seems the Group is anxious to debate the pro's and cons via email but >when it comes to getting a Linux proposal for the city of Toronto however a >lot of the talk is just that, talk. Actions speak louder than words. > > > yeah, but usually those actions are triggered by words, so they're not all bad. ;) let's actually put something together ! djp -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From pmills-5bG9SNWDbRX3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 28 14:30:33 2003 From: pmills-5bG9SNWDbRX3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Phillip Mills) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 09:30:33 -0500 Subject: City Of Toronto In-Reply-To: <20031227132345.1ced3249.hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20031227132345.1ced3249.hgibson@eol.ca> Message-ID: <65622AD4-3942-11D8-98DB-00039310151E@axxent.ca> On Saturday, December 27, 2003, at 01:23 PM, Howard Gibson wrote: > On Sat, 27 Dec 2003 08:08:49 -0500 > Phillip Mills wrote: >> >> Quote: >> "The city's problem is that 14,000 of its 17,500 computers are of 1999 >> vintage or older, which means that the operating system they run on is >> Microsoft Windows NT, a program which the software company will no >> longer support after some time next year, and they do not have the >> capacity to run on the next generation of software, Windows XP, which >> the city plans to switch to." >> > My 1998 computer works okay as long as I do not launch KDE. I have > added a lot of RAM since I bought the thing, 64MB to 256MB. My second > hand laptop has 64MB of RAM. I am running Red Hat 8 on both machines. > > I am here to tell you that 64MB is not enough for Red Hat 8. If I > cannot get more than 64MB into the laptop, this will be its final > upgrade. > > I suspect that if you install the latest version of Linux onto > these old machines, you will teach a bunch of people to hate Linux. > A clever administrator may get these machines to work efficiently, but > new machines are probably easier and more reliable, Linux or no Linux. I don't have a problem with anything you're saying, except that I miss the point. I certainly wouldn't be happy doing software development with 64MB on any of my systems, whether Linux, Mac, or MS. I have a Dell P3 733 that was given to me with NT 4 Workstation running. I have it dual-booting with NT and SuSE 8.1/KDE. The interface feels faster under Linux than Windows. Years ago -- when NT 4 was new -- I converted a PII to Linux and used it as an Internet gateway for a 20-person office. Running NT, it wouldn't have worked as well...if at all. Since the people referenced in the above quote are using NT already, then equivalent functions on a Linux system should *not* be a *worse* experience for performance. I think one would have to try really hard to install Linux such that it felt slower than NT on any given system. If workers need upgraded systems because of their job functions or because the standard for acceptable performance has changed, that's fine. If they need them just to do an XP upgrade -- like the article suggests -- that seems terribly wasteful. ........................ Phillip Mills Multi-platform software development (416) 224-0714 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From legrady-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 28 15:38:16 2003 From: legrady-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Tom Legrady) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 10:38:16 -0500 Subject: City Of Toronto In-Reply-To: <65622AD4-3942-11D8-98DB-00039310151E-5bG9SNWDbRX3fQ9qLvQP4Q@public.gmane.org> References: <65622AD4-3942-11D8-98DB-00039310151E@axxent.ca> Message-ID: <3FEEF8E8.2060207@rogers.com> Ten years ago I worked in an office of 8 developers which used a Sparc 10 with 32 MB ( or maybe 64 MB, I forget ) and 1 GB HD, driving a bunch of NCD Xterminals. We were using vi & emacs and ruunning gcc all day long Phillip Mills wrote: > On Saturday, December 27, 2003, at 01:23 PM, Howard Gibson wrote: > >> On Sat, 27 Dec 2003 08:08:49 -0500 >> Phillip Mills wrote: >> >>> >>> Quote: >>> "The city's problem is that 14,000 of its 17,500 computers are of 1999 >>> vintage or older, which means that the operating system they run on is >>> Microsoft Windows NT, a program which the software company will no >>> longer support after some time next year, and they do not have the >>> capacity to run on the next generation of software, Windows XP, which >>> the city plans to switch to." >>> >> My 1998 computer works okay as long as I do not launch KDE. I >> have added a lot of RAM since I bought the thing, 64MB to 256MB. My >> second hand laptop has 64MB of RAM. I am running Red Hat 8 on both >> machines. >> >> I am here to tell you that 64MB is not enough for Red Hat 8. If I >> cannot get more than 64MB into the laptop, this will be its final >> upgrade. >> >> I suspect that if you install the latest version of Linux onto >> these old machines, you will teach a bunch of people to hate Linux. >> A clever administrator may get these machines to work efficiently, >> but new machines are probably easier and more reliable, Linux or no >> Linux. > > > I don't have a problem with anything you're saying, except that I miss > the point. I certainly wouldn't be happy doing software development > with 64MB on any of my systems, whether Linux, Mac, or MS. > > I have a Dell P3 733 that was given to me with NT 4 Workstation > running. I have it dual-booting with NT and SuSE 8.1/KDE. The > interface feels faster under Linux than Windows. Years ago -- when NT > 4 was new -- I converted a PII to Linux and used it as an Internet > gateway for a 20-person office. Running NT, it wouldn't have worked > as well...if at all. Since the people referenced in the above quote > are using NT already, then equivalent functions on a Linux system > should *not* be a *worse* experience for performance. I think one > would have to try really hard to install Linux such that it felt > slower than NT on any given system. > > If workers need upgraded systems because of their job functions or > because the standard for acceptable performance has changed, that's > fine. If they need them just to do an XP upgrade -- like the article > suggests -- that seems terribly wasteful. > > ........................ > Phillip Mills > Multi-platform software development > (416) 224-0714 > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From rbrockway-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 28 22:52:09 2003 From: rbrockway-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 17:52:09 -0500 (EST) Subject: City Of Toronto In-Reply-To: <3FEE7421.3060803-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <3FEE7421.3060803@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: On Sun, 28 Dec 2003, David J Patrick wrote: > I'll try and make it Monday > .. unless .. we dedicate the post TLUG brewskie to the municipal cause > on the 9th ? > rather than our usual frivolity ? Given that the majority of TLUG members are likely not interested in being involved I think it makes sense to have a seperate meeting. A couple of people have confirmed for the Monday Jan 12th meeting already so we'll see what sort of brain storming we get done :) Rob -- Robert Brockway Senior Technical Consultant, OpenTrend Solutions Ltd. Phone: 416-669-3073, Email: rbrockway-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org, http://www.opentrend.net OpenTrend Solutions: Reliable, secure solutions to real world problems. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 29 01:37:34 2003 From: davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (David J Patrick) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 20:37:34 -0500 Subject: City Of Toronto In-Reply-To: References: <3FEE7421.3060803@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <3FEF855E.7020200@sympatico.ca> Robert Brockway wrote: >On Sun, 28 Dec 2003, David J Patrick wrote: > > > >>I'll try and make it Monday >> .. unless .. we dedicate the post TLUG brewskie to the municipal cause >> on the 9th ? >> rather than our usual frivolity ? >> >> > >Given that the majority of TLUG members are likely not interested in being >involved I think it makes sense to have a seperate meeting. A couple of >people have confirmed for the Monday Jan 12th meeting already so we'll see >what sort of brain storming we get done :) > >Rob > > > Sound logic there, Robert. Better for me too, as we can get wobbly while talking about the caffe . As stated earlier, I will do my best to attend Mondays session. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From pmills-5bG9SNWDbRX3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 29 02:38:49 2003 From: pmills-5bG9SNWDbRX3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Phillip Mills) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 21:38:49 -0500 Subject: City Of Toronto In-Reply-To: <3FEEF8E8.2060207-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <3FEEF8E8.2060207@rogers.com> Message-ID: <21E75B49-39A8-11D8-A324-00039310151E@axxent.ca> On Sunday, December 28, 2003, at 10:38 AM, Tom Legrady wrote: > Ten years ago I worked in an office of 8 developers which used a Sparc > 10 with 32 MB ( or maybe 64 MB, I forget ) and 1 GB HD, driving a > bunch of NCD Xterminals. We were using vi & emacs and ruunning gcc all > day long > > Phillip Mills wrote: >> I certainly wouldn't be happy doing software development with 64MB >> on any of my systems, whether Linux, Mac, or MS. ...and I'd been writing code for four years before I saw a *mini* computer with a whole megabyte of main memory. (It tended to bog down when it hit about a dozen concurrent Fortran compiles.) I didn't say it was impossible, just that I wouldn't be happy. :-) ........................ Phillip Mills Multi-platform software development (416) 224-0714 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 29 05:23:05 2003 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 00:23:05 -0500 (EST) Subject: Data recovery emergency on a downed server... Help please!! Message-ID: <32803.64.231.131.25.1072675385.squirrel@host.bettermarkets.com> Hi everyone, Well, the fact that I am posting this after 12:00am Sunday night (and on my birthday, to-boot!) should indicate just how dire the situation is... I have had a drive failure on a server and I can no longer mount the data partition on the hard drive (/dev/hda5 [ext3 under RH7.3]) because the replacement server (Fedora Core 1) claims that the drive's superblock is toast. Now, before anyone rips me a new one, I -DO- have a tape drive but that, too, has rather depressingly failed. When I try to recover the files from the IDE Travan 8GB drive it successdully recovers about 50 files and then fails with this... -= Begin Error =- [root-9CO/sRhIDOA at public.gmane.org tape]# tar zxvf /dev/ht0 . [bunch-of-files] . home/OldC/Program Files/Common Files/Symantec Shared/VirusDefs/19970902.001/navex15.exp home/OldC/Program Files/Common Files/Symantec Shared/VirusDefs/19970902.001/navex15.sys home/OldC/Program Files/Common Files/Symantec Shared/VirusDefs/19970902.001/NAVEX15.VXD gzip: stdin: unexpected end of file tar: Unexpected EOF in archive tar: Unexpected EOF in archive tar: Error is not recoverable: exiting now [root-9CO/sRhIDOA at public.gmane.org tape]# -= End Error =- This is true on three of the tapes I have tried to recover from. The data was backed up via this simple script: -= Begin Script =- mt -f /dev/ht0 erase mt -f /dev/ht0 rewind tar zcvf /dev/ht0 /home/* -= End Script =- I have been Googling for a while now with no success. If anyone has any clues, by all means -please- share them... Also, if anyone here can recommend (as a fall back) a data recovery house that won't balk at an ext3 partition, please forward contact info. Thanks everyone (again!!!) The Ever-Stumbling Madison -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From teddymills-VFlxZYho3OA at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 29 07:00:38 2003 From: teddymills-VFlxZYho3OA at public.gmane.org (Teddy Mills) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 02:00:38 -0500 Subject: Data recovery emergency on a downed server... Help please!! References: <32803.64.231.131.25.1072675385.squirrel@host.bettermarkets.com> Message-ID: <001501c3cdd9$777ffe20$0301a8c0@amazon> Either the drive had a hardware OR the superblock is toast. It doesnt seem likely to be both. >From your description, it appears that the drive is functioning, but the superblock is gone. Is that correct? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Madison Kelly" To: Sent: Monday, December 29, 2003 12:23 AM Subject: [TLUG]: Data recovery emergency on a downed server... Help please!! > Hi everyone, > > Well, the fact that I am posting this after 12:00am Sunday night (and on > my birthday, to-boot!) should indicate just how dire the situation is... > I have had a drive failure on a server and I can no longer mount the > data partition on the hard drive (/dev/hda5 [ext3 under RH7.3]) because > the replacement server (Fedora Core 1) claims that the drive's > superblock is toast. > > Now, before anyone rips me a new one, I -DO- have a tape drive but that, > too, has rather depressingly failed. When I try to recover the files > from the IDE Travan 8GB drive it successdully recovers about 50 files > and then fails with this... > > -= Begin Error =- > [root-9CO/sRhIDOA at public.gmane.org tape]# tar zxvf /dev/ht0 > . > [bunch-of-files] > . > home/OldC/Program Files/Common Files/Symantec > Shared/VirusDefs/19970902.001/navex15.exp > home/OldC/Program Files/Common Files/Symantec > Shared/VirusDefs/19970902.001/navex15.sys > home/OldC/Program Files/Common Files/Symantec > Shared/VirusDefs/19970902.001/NAVEX15.VXD > > gzip: stdin: unexpected end of file > tar: Unexpected EOF in archive > tar: Unexpected EOF in archive > tar: Error is not recoverable: exiting now > [root-9CO/sRhIDOA at public.gmane.org tape]# > -= End Error =- > > This is true on three of the tapes I have tried to recover from. The data > was backed up via this simple script: > > -= Begin Script =- > mt -f /dev/ht0 erase > mt -f /dev/ht0 rewind > tar zcvf /dev/ht0 /home/* > -= End Script =- > > I have been Googling for a while now with no success. If anyone has any > clues, by all means -please- share them... Also, if anyone here can > recommend (as a fall back) a data recovery house that won't balk at an > ext3 partition, please forward contact info. > > Thanks everyone (again!!!) > > The Ever-Stumbling Madison > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 29 07:08:17 2003 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 02:08:17 -0500 (EST) Subject: Data recovery emergency on a downed server... Help please!! In-Reply-To: <001501c3cdd9$777ffe20$0301a8c0-vAnPq90cUBg@public.gmane.org> References: <32803.64.231.131.25.1072675385.squirrel@host.bettermarkets.com> <001501c3cdd9$777ffe20$0301a8c0@amazon> Message-ID: <33148.64.231.131.25.1072681697.squirrel@host.bettermarkets.com> That would seem to be the case. However, I have used -many- of these Seagates and I have never seen one suddenly pooch before. I am debating running the Seagate test on it or decide to just recommend having it sent to a data recovery house... I know that backups of the superblock are made, do you know by chance how to locate them and/or how to tell the OS to use one for mounting? Also, at least two partitions on the drive have gone bad... Madison > Either the drive had a hardware OR the superblock is toast. It doesnt > seem > likely to be both. >>From your description, it appears that the drive is functioning, but the > superblock is gone. Is that correct? > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Madison Kelly" > To: > Sent: Monday, December 29, 2003 12:23 AM > Subject: [TLUG]: Data recovery emergency on a downed server... Help > please!! > > >> Hi everyone, >> >> Well, the fact that I am posting this after 12:00am Sunday night (and >> on >> my birthday, to-boot!) should indicate just how dire the situation is... >> I have had a drive failure on a server and I can no longer mount the >> data partition on the hard drive (/dev/hda5 [ext3 under RH7.3]) because >> the replacement server (Fedora Core 1) claims that the drive's >> superblock is toast. >> >> Now, before anyone rips me a new one, I -DO- have a tape drive but >> that, >> too, has rather depressingly failed. When I try to recover the files >> from the IDE Travan 8GB drive it successdully recovers about 50 files >> and then fails with this... >> >> -= Begin Error =- >> [root-9CO/sRhIDOA at public.gmane.org tape]# tar zxvf /dev/ht0 >> . >> [bunch-of-files] >> . >> home/OldC/Program Files/Common Files/Symantec >> Shared/VirusDefs/19970902.001/navex15.exp >> home/OldC/Program Files/Common Files/Symantec >> Shared/VirusDefs/19970902.001/navex15.sys >> home/OldC/Program Files/Common Files/Symantec >> Shared/VirusDefs/19970902.001/NAVEX15.VXD >> >> gzip: stdin: unexpected end of file >> tar: Unexpected EOF in archive >> tar: Unexpected EOF in archive >> tar: Error is not recoverable: exiting now >> [root-9CO/sRhIDOA at public.gmane.org tape]# >> -= End Error =- >> >> This is true on three of the tapes I have tried to recover from. The >> data >> was backed up via this simple script: >> >> -= Begin Script =- >> mt -f /dev/ht0 erase >> mt -f /dev/ht0 rewind >> tar zcvf /dev/ht0 /home/* >> -= End Script =- >> >> I have been Googling for a while now with no success. If anyone has any >> clues, by all means -please- share them... Also, if anyone here can >> recommend (as a fall back) a data recovery house that won't balk at an >> ext3 partition, please forward contact info. >> >> Thanks everyone (again!!!) >> >> The Ever-Stumbling Madison >> -- >> The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org >> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml >> >> > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From mr6re9-mI4xJ4qlgtBiLUuM0BA3LQ at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 29 13:51:12 2003 From: mr6re9-mI4xJ4qlgtBiLUuM0BA3LQ at public.gmane.org (GDHough) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 08:51:12 -0500 Subject: [module pwcx.o] Message-ID: <200312290851.12696.mr6re9@execulink.com> This is a so called "OPTIONAL" plugin to the pwc driver my system chose to load for the Logitech QuickCam. I added it in to hopefully unlock some useful features of the device. In particular, I didn't like the tiny 160x120 images. I understand that by default there were insufficient buffers available for larger captures. pwc and pwcx reference http://www.smcc.demon.nl/webcam/release.html The method I chose to get the larger captures was quick-n-dirty I know, but I'm not all that familiar with rebuilding kernels. The problem is RedHat's versioning. This "OPTIONAL" plugin is NOT available as source and so the alternatives are to fall back to a clean 2.4.20 kernel or go forward to 2.5 or 2.6. In any event, insmod --force pwcx does the trick for now. Another nagging problem is the way this device causes the sound card config to be overwritten at times. It shows up as 5 new sound devices on a reboot and if configured then, will become the only sound device available as a microphone. And the mic don't work either. I can restore the sound server by rebooting with the cam unplugged. There are other ways but I'm in quick-n-dirty mode right now. I believe I can fix the multiple sound card problem with ALSA, I seen something in the errors about full duplex. So I guess what I'm asking is this: Can I avoid another 18Mb syslog thrash with any more quick-n-dirty tricks? or Have I reached the work-around limit for this device and need to build that custom kernel? farmer6re9 -- Eating Crow is better with MyCrowSauce -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From mr6re9-mI4xJ4qlgtBiLUuM0BA3LQ at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 29 13:59:50 2003 From: mr6re9-mI4xJ4qlgtBiLUuM0BA3LQ at public.gmane.org (GDHough) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 08:59:50 -0500 Subject: [curious snort] Message-ID: <200312290859.50772.mr6re9@execulink.com> Just wondering if there are any snorters out there or if this kind of traffic is considered hostile inside a nat: Generated by ACID v0.9.6b23 on Wed, 24 Dec 2003 14:32:54 -0500 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- #(1 - 2701) [2003-12-24 00:01:59] [snort/46] (snort_decoder) WARNING: TCP Data Offset is less than 5! IPv4: 63.247.85.10 -> my.inet.addr.200 hlen=5 TOS=0 dlen=1500 ID=60224 flags=0 offset=0 TTL=47 chksum=17258 TCP: port=80 -> dport: 44963 flags=2**A*RS* seq=1813803659 ack=1215956819 off=4 res=4 win=21299 urp=38947 chksum=1522 Payload: none DNS GNAX.net 63.247.85.10 - cereza.estarr-5.com -- Eating Crow is better with MyCrowSauce -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From anton-F0u+EriZ6ihBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 29 15:13:01 2003 From: anton-F0u+EriZ6ihBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Anton Markov) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 10:13:01 -0500 Subject: Data recovery emergency on a downed server... Help please!! In-Reply-To: <33148.64.231.131.25.1072681697.squirrel-cSwQExXi3C0g59NOP9PCHBGZ6WaZejjh@public.gmane.org> References: <32803.64.231.131.25.1072675385.squirrel@host.bettermarkets.com> <001501c3cdd9$777ffe20$0301a8c0@amazon> <33148.64.231.131.25.1072681697.squirrel@host.bettermarkets.com> Message-ID: <3FF0447D.5050803@truxtar.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Hi Madison, First, if you have a spare hard drive, make a copy of the data on the bad disk (or better yet two) in case the hardware will die, and work on the copy. Then do: # /sbin/mke2fs -n /dev/hda5 -b [blocksize] Be sure to use the right block size here! You will see output including: Superblock backups stored on blocks: 8193, 24577, 40961, 57345, 73729 These are the locations of the superblocks. Pass these one by one to: e2fsck -b [backup superblock location] -y /dev/hda5 [read up on "man e2fsck"] If one of these superblocks are OK, e2fsck will start recovering all possible data (the -y switch means "yes to all"; otherwise you get thousands of prompts). All the possible files will be dumped into the /lost+found directory. - From there, you should be able to do something like: find /lost+found/* -name [some directory you are sure of the location of] i.e. find /long+found/* -name anton allowed me to find my home directory. the /lost+found directory basicly contains many hard links to the same files. You should be able to find your /home, /var, /etc, or whatever other directories you have on the drive and move them back to their respective spot. Be careful - many files may be corrupt without warning. Using this technique, I was able to recover an ext3 partition after deleting it, resizing the partition, reformatting as reiserfs, and using it for two days. About 70% of the files got recovered, but it obviously depends on the damage done. Madison Kelly wrote: > That would seem to be the case. However, I have used -many- of these > Seagates and I have never seen one suddenly pooch before. I am debating > running the Seagate test on it or decide to just recommend having it sent > to a data recovery house... > > I know that backups of the superblock are made, do you know by chance how > to locate them and/or how to tell the OS to use one for mounting? Also, at > least two partitions on the drive have gone bad... > > Madison > > - -- Anton Markov <("anton" + "@" + "truxtar" + "." + "com")> GnuPG Key fingerprint = 5546 A6E2 1FFB 9BB8 15C3 CE34 46B7 8D93 3AD1 44B4 "The difference between insanity and genius is measured only by success." - Some bad guy from 007 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQE/8ESERreNkzrRRLQRAhrqAJ99AdL8vA5Wcqgz/xUbiJIv9xKBtQCfWEc7 vur6ID9kQLMKqte0uPHFRZo= =/aCT -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jvetterli-zC6tqtfhjqE at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 29 15:37:16 2003 From: jvetterli-zC6tqtfhjqE at public.gmane.org (John Vetterli) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 10:37:16 -0500 (EST) Subject: Data recovery emergency on a downed server... Help please!! In-Reply-To: <32803.64.231.131.25.1072675385.squirrel-cSwQExXi3C0g59NOP9PCHBGZ6WaZejjh@public.gmane.org> References: <32803.64.231.131.25.1072675385.squirrel@host.bettermarkets.com> Message-ID: Have you tried using debugfs (part of e2fsprogs)? It lets you tinker with the superblock manually. Also: happy birthday. JV On Mon, 29 Dec 2003, Madison Kelly wrote: > Well, the fact that I am posting this after 12:00am Sunday night (and on > my birthday, to-boot!) should indicate just how dire the situation is... > I have had a drive failure on a server and I can no longer mount the > data partition on the hard drive (/dev/hda5 [ext3 under RH7.3]) because > the replacement server (Fedora Core 1) claims that the drive's > superblock is toast. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 29 15:51:45 2003 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 10:51:45 -0500 (EST) Subject: Data recovery emergency on a downed server... Help please!! In-Reply-To: <3FF0447D.5050803-F0u+EriZ6ihBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <32803.64.231.131.25.1072675385.squirrel@host.bettermarkets.com> <001501c3cdd9$777ffe20$0301a8c0@amazon> <33148.64.231.131.25.1072681697.squirrel@host.bettermarkets.com> <3FF0447D.5050803@truxtar.com> Message-ID: <33284.64.231.131.25.1072713105.squirrel@host.bettermarkets.com> I do have an identical spare drive but how can I make an exact copy of a drive with a messed up file system and also, how can I be sure that the copy is non-destructive? If I can do this, it'd be wonderful! Madison PS - I got a dd of th last tape that ran (finally) and it is about 3.6GB (about right). I extracted it as a tar.gz (which should work) but it fails claiming to not be a gzip archive... Any ideas on that front by chance? > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > Hi Madison, > > First, if you have a spare hard drive, make a copy of the data on the > bad disk (or better yet two) in case the hardware will die, and work on > the copy. > > Then do: > > # /sbin/mke2fs -n /dev/hda5 -b [blocksize] > Be sure to use the right block size here! > > You will see output including: > > Superblock backups stored on blocks: > 8193, 24577, 40961, 57345, 73729 > These are the locations of the superblocks. > > Pass these one by one to: > > e2fsck -b [backup superblock location] -y /dev/hda5 > > [read up on "man e2fsck"] > > If one of these superblocks are OK, e2fsck will start recovering all > possible data (the -y switch means "yes to all"; otherwise you get > thousands of prompts). > > All the possible files will be dumped into the /lost+found directory. > - From there, you should be able to do something like: > > find /lost+found/* -name [some directory you are sure of the location of] > > i.e. > find /long+found/* -name anton > allowed me to find my home directory. > > the /lost+found directory basicly contains many hard links to the same > files. > > You should be able to find your /home, /var, /etc, or whatever other > directories you have on the drive and move them back to their respective > spot. > > Be careful - many files may be corrupt without warning. > > > Using this technique, I was able to recover an ext3 partition after > deleting it, resizing the partition, reformatting as reiserfs, and using > it for two days. About 70% of the files got recovered, but it obviously > depends on the damage done. > > > Madison Kelly wrote: >> That would seem to be the case. However, I have used -many- of these >> Seagates and I have never seen one suddenly pooch before. I am debating >> running the Seagate test on it or decide to just recommend having it >> sent >> to a data recovery house... >> >> I know that backups of the superblock are made, do you know by chance >> how >> to locate them and/or how to tell the OS to use one for mounting? Also, >> at >> least two partitions on the drive have gone bad... >> >> Madison >> >> > > - -- > Anton Markov <("anton" + "@" + "truxtar" + "." + "com")> > > GnuPG Key fingerprint = > 5546 A6E2 1FFB 9BB8 15C3 CE34 46B7 8D93 3AD1 44B4 > > "The difference between insanity and genius is measured only by success." > - Some bad guy from 007 > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) > Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org > > iD8DBQE/8ESERreNkzrRRLQRAhrqAJ99AdL8vA5Wcqgz/xUbiJIv9xKBtQCfWEc7 > vur6ID9kQLMKqte0uPHFRZo= > =/aCT > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 29 15:53:33 2003 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 10:53:33 -0500 (EST) Subject: Data recovery emergency on a downed server... Helpplease!! In-Reply-To: References: <32803.64.231.131.25.1072675385.squirrel@host.bettermarkets.com> Message-ID: <33290.64.231.131.25.1072713213.squirrel@host.bettermarkets.com> I haven't yet because I am pretty worried about doing anything potentially destructive to the data... Madison (who's been at it now for over 15h... ) > Have you tried using debugfs (part of e2fsprogs)? It lets you tinker > with the superblock manually. > > Also: happy birthday. > > JV > > On Mon, 29 Dec 2003, Madison Kelly wrote: >> Well, the fact that I am posting this after 12:00am Sunday night (and >> on >> my birthday, to-boot!) should indicate just how dire the situation is... >> I have had a drive failure on a server and I can no longer mount the >> data partition on the hard drive (/dev/hda5 [ext3 under RH7.3]) because >> the replacement server (Fedora Core 1) claims that the drive's >> superblock is toast. > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From linuxbrad-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 29 16:31:00 2003 From: linuxbrad-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Brad Fonseca) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 11:31:00 -0500 Subject: Problems with KLaptop Message-ID: <200312291131.01358.linuxbrad@rogers.com> I'm running Mandrake 9.2 on a Compaq Armada E500 laptop. When I first installed the system, KLaptop would helpfully warn me when the batteries was low. Recently, I've run into the problem where the Klaptop monitor says I still have 40% on the battery but then the laptop suddenly powers off as if the battery is dead. Is there a way to fix this? The battery seems to last the same length of time as before, it's just that KLaptop seems to have an inaccurate measure of remaining battery life. Regards, Brad Fonseca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From anton-F0u+EriZ6ihBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 29 17:07:15 2003 From: anton-F0u+EriZ6ihBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Anton Markov) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 12:07:15 -0500 Subject: Data recovery emergency on a downed server... Help please!! In-Reply-To: <33284.64.231.131.25.1072713105.squirrel-cSwQExXi3C0g59NOP9PCHBGZ6WaZejjh@public.gmane.org> References: <32803.64.231.131.25.1072675385.squirrel@host.bettermarkets.com> <001501c3cdd9$777ffe20$0301a8c0@amazon> <33148.64.231.131.25.1072681697.squirrel@host.bettermarkets.com> <3FF0447D.5050803@truxtar.com> <33284.64.231.131.25.1072713105.squirrel@host.bettermarkets.com> Message-ID: <3FF05F43.4070706@truxtar.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 You should use: # dd if=/dev/hda5 of=/dev/hdxx bs=512 conv=noerror,sync where xx is the drive and partition (of same size) That should copy the data exactly, and the "noerror" option will ignore physically corrupt areas (if any). You should first create the new partition with /sbin/fdisk or /sbin/parted. Here is one of the origional helpful documents I used when I had to recover data: Most of the article is about recovering the partition table, which you probably don't need to do (what does "/sbin/fdisk -l" say?), but the beginning is interesting. If I ever find the other articles I've used (kick myself for forgetting to bookmark, I'll post the links. ps. I don't know how to fix your tape drive problems. Madison Kelly wrote: > I do have an identical spare drive but how can I make an exact copy of a > drive with a messed up file system and also, how can I be sure that the > copy is non-destructive? If I can do this, it'd be wonderful! > > Madison > > PS - I got a dd of th last tape that ran (finally) and it is about 3.6GB > (about right). I extracted it as a tar.gz (which should work) but it fails > claiming to not be a gzip archive... Any ideas on that front by chance? > > - -- Anton Markov <("anton" + "@" + "truxtar" + "." + "com")> GnuPG Key fingerprint = 5546 A6E2 1FFB 9BB8 15C3 CE34 46B7 8D93 3AD1 44B4 "The difference between insanity and genius is measured only by success." - Some bad guy from 007 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQE/8F9MRreNkzrRRLQRAtyXAKCfRZpfTpcnmNG4TscVM4gSJ5yQ0gCfV0nF t57QJMZzwChXsd9SXNY/Sv8= =TCCS -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From amarjan-e+AXbWqSrlAAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 29 17:22:50 2003 From: amarjan-e+AXbWqSrlAAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Andrej Marjan) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 12:22:50 -0500 Subject: Compiling the 2.6 kernel In-Reply-To: <20031226053018.NDOM16714.tomts27-srv.bellnexxia.net-dxTHOwpelHWiNGDy/dcMHtHuzzzSOjJt@public.gmane.org> References: <20031226053018.NDOM16714.tomts27-srv.bellnexxia.net@smtp.bellnexxia.net> Message-ID: <20031229172250.GA9651@gondolin.dyndns.org> On Fri, Dec 26, 2003 at 12:30:17AM -0500, pking123-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org wrote: > I decided to celebrate Christmas by compiling a version 2.6 kernel. :-) > I have done several compiles before, but still have a few questions about this compile. > First, I noticed that my OS (Debian 3) uses initrd by default. This is > my first compile using initrd. From what I have been reading regarding > initrd, it is really a filesystem-in-a-file, and the default one I > have uses cramfs. Documentation I have on initird suggest ext2 or > minix, so I guess it really doesn't matter about what the filesystem > is. You don't need initrd if you're compiling your own kernel. Just make sure to compile in IDE if you're booting off an IDE drive, or all the necessary scsi stuff for that. Basically, initrd is a sort of in-memory filesystem for the kernel to be able to load modules before it has mounted a filesystem. This is used in distributor kernels so they can make all drivers, including IDE and SCSI, into modules, and then probe and load only the required ones at boot time. They can't get the IDE module from an IDE disk, because the kernel doesn't know about IDE, because the IDE driver is in the module... Otherwise they'd have to compile everything in, making huge kernels and wasting lots of memory. Here's the really easy way to get 2.6 running on Debian: 1. update to unstable 2. install module-init-tools 3. get 2.6 source 4. configure 2.6, making sure to build in anything you need to boot (e.g. IDE, text console) 5. use make-kpkg to compile the kernel and build a Debian package of it 6. install said package 7. reboot and enjoy This will take care of all version dependencies. The new kernel is so much smoother than 2.4 even with the CK interactivity patches. If you're using the nvidia binary driver, there's a shortcut you can use to getting those up and working, especially with the Debian package management system. 1. Use the Debian packages to get the driver up and running with a 2.4 kernel, specifying "no TLS" when asked. 2. Reboot into 2.6 3. Get the 4496 patch and installation instructions from minion.de. 3. Apply the patch into /usr/src/modules/nvidia-kernel/nv/ and build according to the minion.de instructions. You might have to manually copy the resulting nvidia.ko driver into /lib/modules/2.6.0/kernel/drivers/video/ , I don't remember. 4. dpkg-reconfigure nvidia-glx, and say "yes TLS". You want to do this because the debian packages handle all the necessary diversions of GL libraries and general package administration, so nothing will break the next time you update X or mesa. HTH. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From emmajane-MHIYrZpDPrNWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 29 17:46:12 2003 From: emmajane-MHIYrZpDPrNWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Emma Jane Hogbin) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 12:46:12 -0500 Subject: default browser Message-ID: <20031229174612.GA3557@debian> I have a few KDE apps that I like using for various tasks. Unfortunately the interface fonts were messed up so I installed the KDE base to get them working again. KDE has now hijacked my system and is using all of its apps instead of the ones /I/ want. The current problem is that Mozilla-Firebird is no longer my default browser. Any idea of where to fix this? I tried kcontrol but I couldn't find anything that would allow me to set the default applications... thanks :) emma PS I'm using openbox as my WM, /not/ KDE. -- Emma Jane Hogbin [[ 416 417 2868 ][ www.xtrinsic.com ]] -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 29 17:49:43 2003 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 12:49:43 -0500 Subject: Data recovery emergency on a downed server... Help please!! References: <32803.64.231.131.25.1072675385.squirrel@host.bettermarkets.com> <001501c3cdd9$777ffe20$0301a8c0@amazon> <33148.64.231.131.25.1072681697.squirrel@host.bettermarkets.com> <3FF0447D.5050803@truxtar.com> <33284.64.231.131.25.1072713105.squirrel@host.bettermarkets.com> <3FF05F43.4070706@truxtar.com> Message-ID: <001601c3ce34$2466bd40$c07ba8c0@dave> Hi Anton, Thanks for the details. Does the destination partition need to be exactly the same size? I am worried about trying to read the old drive... Oh, and yes, I am sending from OE but that is because of a utility I needed to use that spawned the default mail client which was, drum roll, a server-hosted Eudora install. I had to set this up temporarily (and oh do I mean temporarily!) Anywho, I will be back shortly. I have to go downtown to get the spare drive... Madison ----- Original Message ----- From: "Anton Markov" To: Sent: Monday, December 29, 2003 12:07 PM Subject: Re: [TLUG]: Data recovery emergency on a downed server... Help please!! > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > > You should use: > > # dd if=/dev/hda5 of=/dev/hdxx bs=512 conv=noerror,sync > > where xx is the drive and partition (of same size) > > That should copy the data exactly, and the "noerror" option will ignore > physically corrupt areas (if any). You should first create the new > partition with /sbin/fdisk or /sbin/parted. > > Here is one of the origional helpful documents I used when I had to > recover data: > > Most of the article is about recovering the partition table, which you > probably don't need to do (what does "/sbin/fdisk -l" say?), but the > beginning is interesting. > > If I ever find the other articles I've used (kick myself for forgetting > to bookmark, I'll post the links. > > > ps. I don't know how to fix your tape drive problems. > > > Madison Kelly wrote: > > I do have an identical spare drive but how can I make an exact copy of a > > drive with a messed up file system and also, how can I be sure that the > > copy is non-destructive? If I can do this, it'd be wonderful! > > > > Madison > > > > PS - I got a dd of th last tape that ran (finally) and it is about 3.6GB > > (about right). I extracted it as a tar.gz (which should work) but it fails > > claiming to not be a gzip archive... Any ideas on that front by chance? > > > > > > - -- > Anton Markov <("anton" + "@" + "truxtar" + "." + "com")> > > GnuPG Key fingerprint = > 5546 A6E2 1FFB 9BB8 15C3 CE34 46B7 8D93 3AD1 44B4 > > "The difference between insanity and genius is measured only by success." > - Some bad guy from 007 > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) > Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org > > iD8DBQE/8F9MRreNkzrRRLQRAtyXAKCfRZpfTpcnmNG4TscVM4gSJ5yQ0gCfV0nF > t57QJMZzwChXsd9SXNY/Sv8= > =TCCS > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jab-76OBl6+JcyzDN57Tih+YPw at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 29 17:50:24 2003 From: jab-76OBl6+JcyzDN57Tih+YPw at public.gmane.org (Jeremy Baker) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 12:50:24 -0500 Subject: Problems with KLaptop In-Reply-To: <200312291131.01358.linuxbrad-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <200312291131.01358.linuxbrad@rogers.com> Message-ID: <3FF06960.9080405@muskokatech.ca> I am running RH9 on the same laptop and have the same problem. I am in the process of trying acpi to see if it will be more successful at getting the battery right. Jeremy Baker Brad Fonseca wrote: >I'm running Mandrake 9.2 on a Compaq Armada E500 laptop. When I first >installed the system, KLaptop would helpfully warn me when the batteries was >low. Recently, I've run into the problem where the Klaptop monitor says I >still have 40% on the battery but then the laptop suddenly powers off as if >the battery is dead. > >Is there a way to fix this? The battery seems to last the same length of time >as before, it's just that KLaptop seems to have an inaccurate measure of >remaining battery life. > >Regards, > >Brad Fonseca > >-- >The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org >TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From tim-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 29 18:37:35 2003 From: tim-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Tim Writer) Date: 29 Dec 2003 13:37:35 -0500 Subject: Formatting in C++ (fwd) In-Reply-To: References: <200312271327.53407.wildberger@cogeco.ca> <200312271804.36479.wildberger@cogeco.ca> Message-ID: "Peter L. Peres" writes: > On Sat, 27 Dec 2003, John Wildberger wrote: > > > On December 27, 2003 02:38 pm, Peter L. Peres wrote: > > > > > Would it help if I'd say that I prefer to use form() for this ? ;-) > > > > > > The << overloading is supposed to make your life easier, not the other > > > way around. > > > > > > Peter > > This gets better with every turn. ( for me more and more mysterious). What > > does form() do? How can I use it ? > > #include > > cout << form( "%02X", buf[i] ); > > This should be in libio (i.e. do -lio when linking if the compiler > complains). Why not do info iostream and spend some time reading (consider > that this is not a tutorial - you are reading manual pages). I hope that > you know how hopeless it is to learn C++, or any language, from 5 email > messages and a few manual pages. A word of warning: IIRC, "form" is a GNU extension. For maximum portability, format to a buffer using sprintf() and print the buffer. By now, you should be convinced that porting the original program from C to C++ yielded no benefits whatsoever at the cost of additional complexity, portability problems, and clumsiness. Note, I'm not saying that's true for every program but this particular program was not a good candidate. -- tim writer starnix inc. 905.771.0017 ext. 225 thornhill, ontario, canada http://www.starnix.com professional linux services & products -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From tim-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 29 18:51:59 2003 From: tim-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Tim Writer) Date: 29 Dec 2003 13:51:59 -0500 Subject: Data recovery emergency on a downed server... Help please!! In-Reply-To: <001601c3ce34$2466bd40$c07ba8c0-kA9Jmwxe6rI@public.gmane.org> References: <32803.64.231.131.25.1072675385.squirrel@host.bettermarkets.com> <001501c3cdd9$777ffe20$0301a8c0@amazon> <33148.64.231.131.25.1072681697.squirrel@host.bettermarkets.com> <3FF0447D.5050803@truxtar.com> <33284.64.231.131.25.1072713105.squirrel@host.bettermarkets.com> <3FF05F43.4070706@truxtar.com> <001601c3ce34$2466bd40$c07ba8c0@dave> Message-ID: "Madison Kelly" writes: > Hi Anton, > > Thanks for the details. Does the destination partition need to be > exactly the same size? No, but it can't be smaller. If it's substantially bigger and you're able to recover successfully, you can resize the file system (e.g. using resize2fs) to take advantage of the additional space. -- tim writer starnix inc. 905.771.0017 ext. 225 thornhill, ontario, canada http://www.starnix.com professional linux services & products -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From ben-2t5HQ58uLWk at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 29 19:50:27 2003 From: ben-2t5HQ58uLWk at public.gmane.org (Ben Konrath) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 14:50:27 -0500 Subject: a small problem with my 2.6.0 kernel setup Message-ID: <1072727426.1337.11.camel@localhost> Howdy folks, I just installed the 2.6.0 kernel on my sony vaio laptop and I've run into a small problem. I can't get a terminal to run in X. When I start xterm, the window manager draws the window but the shell prompt doesn't show up. This works fine if I reboot with 2.4.23. In 2.6.0, I can login normally on the console and get shell prompt there. I'm assuming that I haven't configured something correctly but I'm a bit stumped as to what. Does anybody have any ideas? Note to other sony vaio owners, the 2.6.0 kernel will not boot with the PnPBios driver enabled. I believe this is because the vaio line of laptops have buggy BIOS's. Cheers, Ben -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From anton-F0u+EriZ6ihBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 29 20:21:22 2003 From: anton-F0u+EriZ6ihBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Anton Markov) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 15:21:22 -0500 Subject: a small problem with my 2.6.0 kernel setup In-Reply-To: <1072727426.1337.11.camel-bi+AKbBUZKZeoWH0uzbU5w@public.gmane.org> References: <1072727426.1337.11.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <3FF08CC2.80709@truxtar.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Have you compiled support for the /dev/pts filesystem into the kernel? (Device Drivers -> File Systems -> Pseudo File Systems -> /dev/pts) I had this problem when I was trying out DevFS, because I disabled /dev/pts Otherwise, check system logs (/var/log/message) and dmesg right after trying to open a terminal. Also, if you start X with "startx", check the console for errors. Ben Konrath wrote: > Howdy folks, > > I just installed the 2.6.0 kernel on my sony vaio laptop and I've run > into a small problem. > > I can't get a terminal to run in X. When I start xterm, the window > manager draws the window but the shell prompt doesn't show up. This > works fine if I reboot with 2.4.23. In 2.6.0, I can login normally on > the console and get shell prompt there. I'm assuming that I haven't > configured something correctly but I'm a bit stumped as to what. Does > anybody have any ideas? > > Note to other sony vaio owners, the 2.6.0 kernel will not boot with the > PnPBios driver enabled. I believe this is because the vaio line of > laptops have buggy BIOS's. > > Cheers, Ben > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml - -- Anton Markov <("anton" + "@" + "truxtar" + "." + "com")> GnuPG Key fingerprint = 5546 A6E2 1FFB 9BB8 15C3 CE34 46B7 8D93 3AD1 44B4 "The difference between insanity and genius is measured only by success." - Some bad guy from 007 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQE/8IzKRreNkzrRRLQRAqpPAKCKA0fmKDEXL/TrLNJLXPhUB9+HrACgoEEs QMV/xJNFBnMfzJxoQ4B1xOQ= =zDuj -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From pmills-5bG9SNWDbRX3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 29 20:30:15 2003 From: pmills-5bG9SNWDbRX3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Phillip Mills) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 15:30:15 -0500 Subject: City Of Toronto In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sunday, December 28, 2003, at 05:52 PM, Robert Brockway wrote: > A couple of > people have confirmed for the Monday Jan 12th meeting already so we'll > see > what sort of brain storming we get done I worry that by the time Jan. 12 rolls around, people at city hall will have forgotten what was written on Dec. 27 and why they should care. In addition to the cumulative wisdom that comes out of that meeting, I'd like to suggest that anyone with relevant facts and ideas express them now to whoever is most likely to be affected by your particular arguments. I have sent a somewhat techie summary of my point of view to Ana Bassios, Acting Executive Director, Information and Technology. My wife, who has a political/executive/financial slant rather than any Linux connection at all, sent hers to Members of the Policy and Finance Committee, and the Budget Advisory Committee. Happy typing! ........................ Phillip Mills Multi-platform software development (416) 224-0714 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From ben-2t5HQ58uLWk at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 29 22:03:39 2003 From: ben-2t5HQ58uLWk at public.gmane.org (Ben Konrath) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 17:03:39 -0500 Subject: a small problem with my 2.6.0 kernel setup In-Reply-To: <3FF08CC2.80709-F0u+EriZ6ihBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <1072727426.1337.11.camel@localhost> <3FF08CC2.80709@truxtar.com> Message-ID: <1072735418.953.4.camel@localhost> On Mon, 2003-12-29 at 15:21, Anton Markov wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > Have you compiled support for the /dev/pts filesystem into the kernel? > (Device Drivers -> File Systems -> Pseudo File Systems -> /dev/pts) That was it. I ended up having to enable UNIX98_PTYS (Device Drivers -> Character devices -> Unix98 PTY support) and DEVPTS_FS (File Systems -> Pseudo filesystems -> /dev/pts file system for Unix98 PTYs) Thanks for your help. Ben -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From wildberger-iRg7kjdsKiH3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 29 22:14:39 2003 From: wildberger-iRg7kjdsKiH3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (John Wildberger) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 17:14:39 -0500 Subject: Formatting in C++ (fwd) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200312291714.40349.wildberger@cogeco.ca> On December 29, 2003 01:37 pm, Tim Writer wrote: > By now, you should be convinced that porting the original program from C to > C++ yielded no benefits whatsoever at the cost of additional complexity, > portability problems, and clumsiness. Note, I'm not saying that's true for > every program but this particular program was not a good candidate. I think you are missing a point here. I t was never my intention to port the program from c to c++ for the purpose of improving the program. It was solely a learning experience and as such it served its purpose very well. I learned how to apply C99 standards and after some struggling I even managed to use the proper formatting tools in C++. The program itself is rather useless and can now be discarded. C++ is not the preferred programming language for most Linux aficionados. They prefere standard C instead. The kernel does not have a single part written in C++. However, there is a lot of potential in C++, and anyone interested to write programs for his/hers use will find it very useful and powerful. To reap the full benefit it is necessary to get familiar with its syntax and structure. Extra complexity is introduced for portability reason. If you should not care for portability you can make things a lot simpler. e.g use the simple types like int, char, float etc instead of the C99 types. But as always, it is good to know the later forms, so that you can at least read programs written by other people. John -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From wildberger-iRg7kjdsKiH3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 29 23:06:06 2003 From: wildberger-iRg7kjdsKiH3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (John Wildberger) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 18:06:06 -0500 Subject: DocBook Message-ID: <200312291806.06822.wildberger@cogeco.ca> In the directory /linux/Documentation/DocBook there are a great number of files all having the extension 'tmpl'. Presumably this stands for template. When I open anyone of these files in filemanager I see the full text all jammed together without any attempt of formatting. How can I display these pages in a reasonable manner? I found all kinds of references that deal with writing doc books, but have found so far none that would explain how to read them. Can anyone give me a hint? John -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 29 23:12:30 2003 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 18:12:30 -0500 Subject: Data recovery emergency on a downed server... Help please!! In-Reply-To: <33284.64.231.131.25.1072713105.squirrel-cSwQExXi3C0g59NOP9PCHBGZ6WaZejjh@public.gmane.org> References: <32803.64.231.131.25.1072675385.squirrel@host.bettermarkets.com> <001501c3cdd9$777ffe20$0301a8c0@amazon> <33148.64.231.131.25.1072681697.squirrel@host.bettermarkets.com> <3FF0447D.5050803@truxtar.com> <33284.64.231.131.25.1072713105.squirrel@host.bettermarkets.com> Message-ID: <20031229231230.GA7005@m433> On Mon, Dec 29, 2003 at 10:51:45AM -0500, Madison Kelly wrote > PS - I got a dd of th last tape that ran (finally) and it is about 3.6GB > (about right). I extracted it as a tar.gz (which should work) but it fails > claiming to not be a gzip archive... Any ideas on that front by chance? *MAKE A BACKUP COPY OF THE TAR.GZ FILE FIRST* !!! Straight from the man page... > tar -xvvzf foo.tar.gz > extract gzipped foo.tar.gz ..did you remember the "z" parameter ? I've had similar problems with tar.bz2 archives. I find that doing it one step at a time works. Note, you will need a *LOT* more diskspace. Step 1) zcat filename.tar.gz > filename.tar The "zcat" executable is named "gzcat" in some versions. Use whichever one works on your system. Step 2) tar -xvf filename.tar -- Walter Dnes Email users are divided into two classes; 1) Those who have effective spam-blocking 2) Those who wish they did -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From legrady-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 29 23:30:07 2003 From: legrady-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Tom Legrady) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 18:30:07 -0500 Subject: Data recovery emergency on a downed server... Help please!! In-Reply-To: <20031229231230.GA7005-DPTsmTRGv3o@public.gmane.org> References: <32803.64.231.131.25.1072675385.squirrel@host.bettermarkets.com> <001501c3cdd9$777ffe20$0301a8c0@amazon> <33148.64.231.131.25.1072681697.squirrel@host.bettermarkets.com> <3FF0447D.5050803@truxtar.com> <33284.64.231.131.25.1072713105.squirrel@host.bettermarkets.com> <20031229231230.GA7005@m433> Message-ID: <3FF0B8FF.8030302@rogers.com> Don't use zcat to decompress a file ... use the appropriate tool, gunzip: gunzip file.tar.gz ls file.tar NB. gunzip -c file.tar.gz is identical to zcat/ He already has a backup of the tar.gz ... it's called a tape Tom Walter Dnes wrote: >On Mon, Dec 29, 2003 at 10:51:45AM -0500, Madison Kelly wrote > > > >>PS - I got a dd of th last tape that ran (finally) and it is about 3.6GB >>(about right). I extracted it as a tar.gz (which should work) but it fails >>claiming to not be a gzip archive... Any ideas on that front by chance? >> >> > > *MAKE A BACKUP COPY OF THE TAR.GZ FILE FIRST* !!! > > Straight from the man page... > > >> tar -xvvzf foo.tar.gz >> extract gzipped foo.tar.gz >> >> >..did you remember the "z" parameter ? > > I've had similar problems with tar.bz2 archives. I find that doing it >one step at a time works. Note, you will need a *LOT* more diskspace. > >Step 1) zcat filename.tar.gz > filename.tar > The "zcat" executable is named "gzcat" in some versions. Use whichever >one works on your system. > >Step 2) tar -xvf filename.tar > > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 30 01:48:52 2003 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 20:48:52 -0500 Subject: Data recovery emergency on a downed server... Help please!! References: <32803.64.231.131.25.1072675385.squirrel@host.bettermarkets.com> <001501c3cdd9$777ffe20$0301a8c0@amazon> <33148.64.231.131.25.1072681697.squirrel@host.bettermarkets.com> <3FF0447D.5050803@truxtar.com> <33284.64.231.131.25.1072713105.squirrel@host.bettermarkets.com> <20031229231230.GA7005@m433> <3FF0B8FF.8030302@rogers.com> Message-ID: <009d01c3ce77$13a9a1a0$c07ba8c0@dave> Yep, still under OE (*shudder*) Thanks for the suggestion, Walter. I did make a copy of the tar.gz file but I got nothing useful out of it. I am still waiting now for the darn activation code for a MS-based ext3-aware data recovery tool... Maybe that will finally crack my rough luck thus far - if it ever arrives! Tom, thanks for the note about gunzip -c being the same as zcat. I will make another backup and give that a go, though my hopes are narrow... Oh, and given the current state of my hardware; I certainly would not trust my tape to make another dump so Walter's suggestion is/was valid. Madison (who has passed the 24hours mark and wishes she could just get a break and then go home!!) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Legrady" To: Sent: Monday, December 29, 2003 6:30 PM Subject: Re: [TLUG]: Data recovery emergency on a downed server... Help please!! > Don't use zcat to decompress a file ... use the appropriate tool, gunzip: > > gunzip file.tar.gz > ls file.tar > > NB. gunzip -c file.tar.gz is identical to zcat/ > > > He already has a backup of the tar.gz ... it's called a tape > > Tom > > Walter Dnes wrote: > > >On Mon, Dec 29, 2003 at 10:51:45AM -0500, Madison Kelly wrote > > > > > > > >>PS - I got a dd of th last tape that ran (finally) and it is about 3.6GB > >>(about right). I extracted it as a tar.gz (which should work) but it fails > >>claiming to not be a gzip archive... Any ideas on that front by chance? > >> > >> > > > > *MAKE A BACKUP COPY OF THE TAR.GZ FILE FIRST* !!! > > > > Straight from the man page... > > > > > >> tar -xvvzf foo.tar.gz > >> extract gzipped foo.tar.gz > >> > >> > >..did you remember the "z" parameter ? > > > > I've had similar problems with tar.bz2 archives. I find that doing it > >one step at a time works. Note, you will need a *LOT* more diskspace. > > > >Step 1) zcat filename.tar.gz > filename.tar > > The "zcat" executable is named "gzcat" in some versions. Use whichever > >one works on your system. > > > >Step 2) tar -xvf filename.tar > > > > > > > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From blsonne-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 30 02:48:28 2003 From: blsonne-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Byron Sonne) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 21:48:28 -0500 Subject: Data recovery emergency on a downed server... Help please!! In-Reply-To: <009d01c3ce77$13a9a1a0$c07ba8c0-kA9Jmwxe6rI@public.gmane.org> References: <32803.64.231.131.25.1072675385.squirrel@host.bettermarkets.com> <001501c3cdd9$777ffe20$0301a8c0@amazon> <33148.64.231.131.25.1072681697.squirrel@host.bettermarkets.com> <3FF0447D.5050803@truxtar.com> <33284.64.231.131.25.1072713105.squirrel@host.bettermarkets.com> <20031229231230.GA7005@m433> <3FF0B8FF.8030302@rogers.com> <009d01c3ce77$13a9a1a0$c07ba8c0@dave> Message-ID: <3FF0E77C.2000407@rogers.com> > Madison (who has passed the 24hours mark and wishes she could just get a > break and then go home!!) Please let us know how this all turns out. I'm quite interested in the ultimate resolution! Sounds like a text book case of the typical failed drive/bad tape nightmare scenario. I've been through this kind of hell but it was when I was part of the dark side and had to restore MS boxen, or attempt to, from bad Veritas/BackupExec and/or Legato backups (though most of the time it worked). Part of the overall procedure (which mind you wasn't followed regularly for whatever reasons) was periodic restores to make sure everything would work when called upon. Nothing like having a shelf full of backups that turn out to be shitworthy in the end. Oh; I would avoid CDs for backup... I've used numerous brands across multiple writers and I'm finding that they are just not trustworthy enough over time. Some people seem to have something against tape, but I'd be far more inclined to trust DLT over CD. And keep them drives clean! It does help. My experience with using RAID (level 5 or similar levels of redundancy) is that it obviates the need for 90% of the restores I would have had to do in the past. Except, of course, people that want a restore done to get an old version of a file back. RAID is not a panacea, but who gives a shit about a busted drive or a 12 hour restore when you can just pop in a new drive with nary a hiccup? If you got the money, go RAID and complement it with a good backup system (I like DLT). Given a solid and well designed IT infrastructure, using good stuff, backups should be solid, reliable, and never, ever needed. Or for those with massive amounts of data, go SAN. While I'm rambling on, make sure you have clean electrical power, preferably backed up with a UPS. Numerous restores I've done in the past would have been avoided if the machine didn't hiccup or crash due to a brownout or power failure. They don't have to keep your boxen running for days on end, just enough time to close open files and back down gracefully. They also help for restores and backups; rather annoying when a long, long restore craps out midway through due to a power glitch. Tapes will also be more reliable if your power is clean too, but I suppose that is conjecture. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 30 03:48:26 2003 From: davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (David J Patrick) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 22:48:26 -0500 Subject: Data recovery emergency on a downed server... Help please!! In-Reply-To: <32803.64.231.131.25.1072675385.squirrel-cSwQExXi3C0g59NOP9PCHBGZ6WaZejjh@public.gmane.org> References: <32803.64.231.131.25.1072675385.squirrel@host.bettermarkets.com> Message-ID: <3FF0F58A.7000006@sympatico.ca> Madison Kelly wrote: >Hi everyone, > > Well, the fact that I am posting this after 12:00am Sunday night (and on >my birthday, to-boot!) should indicate just how dire the situation is... >I have had a drive failure on a server and I can no longer mount the >data partition on the hard drive (/dev/hda5 [ext3 under RH7.3]) because >the replacement server (Fedora Core 1) claims that the drive's >superblock is toast. > have you considered a boot linux (like knoppix) in order to move trapped data and/ or assess damage ? works for me, YYMV djp -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From IlyaPalagin-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 30 04:25:11 2003 From: IlyaPalagin-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Ilya Palagin) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 23:25:11 -0500 Subject: Data recovery emergency on a downed server... Help please!! In-Reply-To: <009d01c3ce77$13a9a1a0$c07ba8c0-kA9Jmwxe6rI@public.gmane.org> References: <32803.64.231.131.25.1072675385.squirrel@host.bettermarkets.com> <001501c3cdd9$777ffe20$0301a8c0@amazon> <33148.64.231.131.25.1072681697.squirrel@host.bettermarkets.com> <3FF0447D.5050803@truxtar.com> <33284.64.231.131.25.1072713105.squirrel@host.bettermarkets.com> <20031229231230.GA7005@m433> <3FF0B8FF.8030302@rogers.com> <009d01c3ce77$13a9a1a0$c07ba8c0@dave> Message-ID: <3FF0FE27.7060207@rogers.com> Madison Kelly wrote: > Yep, still under OE (*shudder*) > > Thanks for the suggestion, Walter. I did make a copy of the tar.gz file but > I got nothing useful out of it. I am still waiting now for the darn > activation code for a MS-based ext3-aware data recovery tool... Maybe that > will finally crack my rough luck thus far - if it ever arrives! > > Tom, thanks for the note about gunzip -c being the same as zcat. I will make > another backup and give that a go, though my hopes are narrow... Oh, and > given the current state of my hardware; I certainly would not trust my tape > to make another dump so Walter's suggestion is/was valid. > > Madison (who has passed the 24hours mark and wishes she could just get a > break and then go home!!) For your daily backup operations, a recommend you to use star instead of tar. star has a nice "diff" option, which allows to verify backups. Like tar, it's multiplatform, so you can take your tapes to a friend with the same tape drive and try to restore data on his system to make sure that your backups make sence. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Tom Legrady" > To: > Sent: Monday, December 29, 2003 6:30 PM > Subject: Re: [TLUG]: Data recovery emergency on a downed server... Help > please!! > > > >>Don't use zcat to decompress a file ... use the appropriate tool, gunzip: >> >>gunzip file.tar.gz >>ls file.tar >> >>NB. gunzip -c file.tar.gz is identical to zcat/ >> >> >>He already has a backup of the tar.gz ... it's called a tape >> >>Tom >> >>Walter Dnes wrote: >> >> >>>On Mon, Dec 29, 2003 at 10:51:45AM -0500, Madison Kelly wrote >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>PS - I got a dd of th last tape that ran (finally) and it is about 3.6GB >>>>(about right). I extracted it as a tar.gz (which should work) but it > > fails > >>>>claiming to not be a gzip archive... Any ideas on that front by chance? >>>> >>>> >>> >>> *MAKE A BACKUP COPY OF THE TAR.GZ FILE FIRST* !!! >>> >>> Straight from the man page... >>> >>> >>> >>>> tar -xvvzf foo.tar.gz >>>> extract gzipped foo.tar.gz >>>> >>>> >>> >>>..did you remember the "z" parameter ? >>> >>> I've had similar problems with tar.bz2 archives. I find that doing it >>>one step at a time works. Note, you will need a *LOT* more diskspace. >>> >>>Step 1) zcat filename.tar.gz > filename.tar >>> The "zcat" executable is named "gzcat" in some versions. Use whichever >>>one works on your system. >>> >>>Step 2) tar -xvf filename.tar >>> >>> >>> >> >>-- >>The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org >>TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >>How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lists-jiQtrEI3vUxWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 30 04:46:31 2003 From: lists-jiQtrEI3vUxWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (S P Arif Sahari Wibowo) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 23:46:31 -0500 (EST) Subject: Where to buy CDs for linux distributions? Message-ID: Hi! Do you know where I can buy CDs created from downloadable linux distributions? Yes, I know I can just download and write it myself, but if the CDs can be cheap enough, the convenience may worth the difference. Thanks! -- Stephan Paul Arif Sahari Wibowo _____ _____ _____ _____ /____ /____/ /____/ /____ _____/ / / / _____/ http://www.arifsaha.com/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From lists-jiQtrEI3vUxWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 30 05:00:10 2003 From: lists-jiQtrEI3vUxWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (S P Arif Sahari Wibowo) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 00:00:10 -0500 (EST) Subject: FYI on updated RPMs for redhat 7.3 (see note In-Reply-To: <1072292881.2331.314.camel-bi+AKbBUZKZeoWH0uzbU5w@public.gmane.org> References: <1072292881.2331.314.camel@localhost> Message-ID: On Wed, 24 Dec 2003, Lloyd D Budd wrote: >-----Forwarded Message----- >From: Chip Cuccio >I also maintain a large repository of Red Hat 7.3 RPMs, mainly because I >manage quite a few 7.3 servers at work and my home "data center" - and >statistics show that many other companies/people out there still use 7.3 >(especially on the server platform) for its stability and quality. I like 7.3, but it have one big issue: it use somewhat non-standard gcc 2.96. Is there any successful modification of 7.3 to accomodate the running of binaries compiled by gcc 3? Thanks! -- Stephan Paul Arif Sahari Wibowo _____ _____ _____ _____ /____ /____/ /____/ /____ _____/ / / / _____/ http://www.arifsaha.com/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cdasilva-q6EoVN9bke6w5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 30 05:01:39 2003 From: cdasilva-q6EoVN9bke6w5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org (Clive DaSilva) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 00:01:39 -0500 Subject: Where to buy CDs for linux distributions? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3FF106B3.8030607@iprimus.ca> S P Arif Sahari Wibowo wrote: >Hi! > >Do you know where I can buy CDs created from downloadable linux >distributions? > >Yes, I know I can just download and write it myself, but if the CDs can be >cheap enough, the convenience may worth the difference. > >Thanks! > > > Stephan Try www.cheapbytes.com Clive -- Clive DaSilva CMA Home Tel: 416-421-2480 Cell: 416-560-8820 Email: cdasilva-q6EoVN9bke6w5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org Mandrake Linux 9.1 Kernel 2.4.21 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jzygmont-tEQKYFGiemxAYG7eUwYNkWD2FQJk+8+b at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 30 05:06:41 2003 From: jzygmont-tEQKYFGiemxAYG7eUwYNkWD2FQJk+8+b at public.gmane.org (Justin Zygmont) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 00:06:41 -0500 (EST) Subject: Where to buy CDs for linux distributions? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: there was this place that does it. www.chguy.net On Mon, 29 Dec 2003, S P Arif Sahari Wibowo wrote: > Hi! > > Do you know where I can buy CDs created from downloadable linux > distributions? > > Yes, I know I can just download and write it myself, but if the CDs can be > cheap enough, the convenience may worth the difference. > > Thanks! > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From rico.juan-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 30 03:10:59 2003 From: rico.juan-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (Juan Rico) Date: 30 Dec 2003 03:10:59 +0000 Subject: Where to buy CDs for linux distributions? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1072746135.3926.0.camel@mayabee> try http://www.easylinuxcds.com On Tue, 2003-12-30 at 04:46, S P Arif Sahari Wibowo wrote: > Hi! > > Do you know where I can buy CDs created from downloadable linux > distributions? > > Yes, I know I can just download and write it myself, but if the CDs can be > cheap enough, the convenience may worth the difference. > > Thanks! -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From emir-rdkfGonbjUTTQjIoRn/dzw at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 30 14:27:03 2003 From: emir-rdkfGonbjUTTQjIoRn/dzw at public.gmane.org (Emir Alikadic) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 09:27:03 -0500 (EST) Subject: default browser In-Reply-To: <20031229174612.GA3557-/d9U08IjUQs@public.gmane.org> References: <20031229174612.GA3557@debian> Message-ID: On Mon, 29 Dec 2003, (EJH) Emma Jane Hogbin wrote: EJH> I have a few KDE apps that I like using for various tasks. Unfortunately EJH> the interface fonts were messed up so I installed the KDE base to get them EJH> working again. KDE has now hijacked my system and is using all of its apps EJH> instead of the ones /I/ want. The current problem is that Mozilla-Firebird EJH> is no longer my default browser. EJH> EJH> Any idea of where to fix this? I tried kcontrol but I couldn't find EJH> anything that would allow me to set the default applications... How do you launch those apps? WindowMaker, for example, has its menus in a file under ~/GNUstep. Find the equivalent for your wm and view it to see where the launcher is pointing to, then use "which" and "ls -l" to find what the launcher is linked to (they're usually just symbolic links). You can then remove the link and create your own ("ln -s TARGET LINKNAME"). -- Emir. "If there's anything more important than my ego around, I want it caught and shot now." [Zaphod Beeblebrox] -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From rbrockway-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 30 14:37:45 2003 From: rbrockway-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 09:37:45 -0500 (EST) Subject: Data recovery emergency on a downed server... Help please!! In-Reply-To: <33148.64.231.131.25.1072681697.squirrel-cSwQExXi3C0g59NOP9PCHBGZ6WaZejjh@public.gmane.org> References: <32803.64.231.131.25.1072675385.squirrel@host.bettermarkets.com> <001501c3cdd9$777ffe20$0301a8c0@amazon> <33148.64.231.131.25.1072681697.squirrel@host.bettermarkets.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 29 Dec 2003, Madison Kelly wrote: Hi Maddy. I hope you got some sleep last night... > I know that backups of the superblock are made, do you know by chance how > to locate them and/or how to tell the OS to use one for mounting? Also, at No one mentioned this (and I didn't read TLUG yesterday) so here it is: /sbin/dumpe2fs /dev/hdxy (where xy is a1, b2, etc) will give you this info. There is quite a lot of output so redirect it to a file and read it with less, eg: /sbin/dumpe2fs /dev/hde3 > /tmp/hde3.info Search for the word "Superblock" Now, take that number and use it with e2fsck -b, Eg I have "Superblock at 163840" listed for /dev/hde3, so I could try: e2fsck -b 163840 /dev/hde3. Remember to only work on backup copies! See below. > least two partitions on the drive have gone bad... Different filesystems (partitions) being bad makes it far less likely it is a filesystem problem. Also, the use of dd was mentioned. This is good but there is no need to write it to a physical drive. You can write the dd to a file and mount it using loopback and attempt recovery on that. As long as you keep a good copy of the filesystem file around you can keep trying things over and over on copies. Good luck. Rob -- Robert Brockway Senior Technical Consultant, OpenTrend Solutions Ltd. Phone: 416-669-3073, Email: rbrockway-wgAaPJgzrDxH4x6Dk/4f9A at public.gmane.org, http://www.opentrend.net OpenTrend Solutions: Reliable, secure solutions to real world problems. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From emmajane-MHIYrZpDPrNWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 30 14:42:17 2003 From: emmajane-MHIYrZpDPrNWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Emma Jane Hogbin) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 09:42:17 -0500 Subject: default browser In-Reply-To: References: <20031229174612.GA3557@debian> Message-ID: <20031230144217.GB821@debian> On Tue, Dec 30, 2003 at 09:27:03AM -0500, Emir Alikadic wrote: > On Mon, 29 Dec 2003, (EJH) Emma Jane Hogbin wrote: > How do you launch those apps? WindowMaker, for example, has its menus in a > file under ~/GNUstep. Find the equivalent for your wm and view it to see where > the launcher is pointing to, then use "which" and "ls -l" to find what the > launcher is linked to (they're usually just symbolic links). You can then > remove the link and create your own ("ln -s TARGET LINKNAME"). In the end everything was set in /etc/alternatives. I'm not even sure how I figured this out, I was just suddenly in that directory poking around while I was supposed to be doing other things. The x-www-browser was pointing to konqueror. I had to set a new "alternative" with: # update-alternatives --install /etc/alternatives/x-www-browser \ x-www-browser /usr/bin/mozilla-firebird 1000 The syntax is as follows: --install (instead of --remove) /path/to/alternative name-of-alternative /path/to/application/to/use "importance" -- I started at 10, 100 and finally 1000 was the number I needed to use to override konqueror. Anything smaller than that and the konqueror link was added instead of a mozilla one. emma -- Emma Jane Hogbin [[ 416 417 2868 ][ www.xtrinsic.com ]] -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 30 15:17:38 2003 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 10:17:38 -0500 Subject: Where to buy CDs for linux distributions? In-Reply-To: <3FF106B3.8030607-q6EoVN9bke6w5LPnMra/2Q@public.gmane.org> References: <3FF106B3.8030607@iprimus.ca> Message-ID: <3FF19712.2080603@rogers.com> Clive DaSilva wrote: > Try www.cheapbytes.com > > Clive > If you order from there, get a bunch of Linux stickers! ;-) http://cart.cheapbytes.com/cgi-bin/cart/1000010108.html -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From tim-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 30 16:17:17 2003 From: tim-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Tim Writer) Date: 30 Dec 2003 11:17:17 -0500 Subject: Formatting in C++ (fwd) In-Reply-To: <200312291714.40349.wildberger-iRg7kjdsKiH3fQ9qLvQP4Q@public.gmane.org> References: <200312291714.40349.wildberger@cogeco.ca> Message-ID: John Wildberger writes: > On December 29, 2003 01:37 pm, Tim Writer wrote: > > > By now, you should be convinced that porting the original program from C to > > C++ yielded no benefits whatsoever at the cost of additional complexity, > > portability problems, and clumsiness. Note, I'm not saying that's true for > > every program but this particular program was not a good candidate. > > I think you are missing a point here. I t was never my intention to port the > program from c to c++ for the purpose of improving the program. It was solely > a learning experience and as such it served its purpose very well. I learned > how to apply C99 standards and after some struggling I even managed to use > the proper formatting tools in C++. And hopefully you learned that this type of program isn't a good candidate for translation to C++. :-) > The program itself is rather useless and can now be discarded. Yep. > C++ is not the preferred programming language for most Linux aficionados. Agreed, although it's an important one for Linux as KDE is written in C++. > They prefere standard C instead. The kernel does not have a single part > written in C++. However, there is a lot of potential in C++, and anyone > interested to write programs for his/hers use will find it very useful and > powerful. To reap the full benefit it is necessary to get familiar with its > syntax and structure. Yes, but it's important to choose examples that benefit from C++; otherwise, you'll just get frustrated. Afterall, the syntax is mostly compatible with C and you only break new ground when you get into features like classes and templates. You won't learn a lot from a more or less mechanical translation of a procedural C program to C++. Of course, as a new C++ user, you might not yet be aware of the kinds of programs which benefit from C++. > Extra complexity is introduced for portability reason. Unfortunately, C++ has not lived up to its promise of portability. The language is so complex that few environments implement the same subset and its often difficult to move a C++ program from one compiler to another on the same platform, let alone from one platform to another. > If you should not care for portability you can make things a lot > simpler. e.g use the simple types like int, char, float etc instead of the > C99 types. The C99 types exist to assist with portability. Clearly, programmers should avoid dealing with exact size types but some programs, such as your example, require them. Using "int16_t" when you need a 16 bit quantity is much more portable than using "short" and assuming its 16 bits. If you're worried a given platform won't have the C99 headers, you can always include a copy with your source code (with appropriate #ifdefs etc. to handle different platforms). > But as always, it is good to know the later forms, so that you can at least > read programs written by other people. Agreed. Unfortunately, C++ is so large and has changed so much since its inception many people use more or less disjoint subsets. If you're learning C++ for fun, consider another language instead, unless perhaps you're planning to do some KDE development. C++ can be incredibly frustrating; I know from bitter experience. If you don't already know them, learning a language like Perl, Python, Ruby, Lisp, or Scheme will be a lot more fun. -- tim writer starnix inc. 905.771.0017 ext. 225 thornhill, ontario, canada http://www.starnix.com professional linux services & products -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jvetterli-zC6tqtfhjqE at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 30 16:32:21 2003 From: jvetterli-zC6tqtfhjqE at public.gmane.org (John Vetterli) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 11:32:21 -0500 (EST) Subject: Formatting in C++ (fwd) In-Reply-To: References: <200312291714.40349.wildberger@cogeco.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, 30 Dec 2003, Tim Writer wrote: > learning a language like Perl, Python, Ruby, Lisp, or Scheme will be a lot > more fun. Depends on your definition of fun :) Decide what style of programming you prefer, and what types of applications you prefer to write, and pick a language based on that. For pure fun, with no real-world usefulness whatsoever, try learning intercal or brainfuck (I did not come up with that name). JV -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jingsu-26n5VD7DAF2Tm46uYYfjYg at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 30 16:37:32 2003 From: jingsu-26n5VD7DAF2Tm46uYYfjYg at public.gmane.org (Jing Su) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 11:37:32 -0500 Subject: Formatting in C++ (fwd) In-Reply-To: References: <200312291714.40349.wildberger@cogeco.ca> Message-ID: > > learning a language like Perl, Python, Ruby, Lisp, or Scheme will be a lot > > more fun. > > Depends on your definition of fun :) Many people swear by ObjectiveC, calling it "object oriented C done right". I know the syntax, but haven't used it enough to be familiar with it's ups and downs. But if you're looking into learning an object oriented style language with a C background, ObjC might be the thing to look into. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From anton-F0u+EriZ6ihBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 30 17:18:00 2003 From: anton-F0u+EriZ6ihBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Anton Markov) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 12:18:00 -0500 Subject: Debian installation Message-ID: <3FF1B348.9040803@truxtar.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Hello guys, I want to try out Debian (while I am on break from school), but I am running into one problem after another. First of all, what's happening with the Debian servers? I know they shut down after the breakin, but it seems like they are not back up yet. The servers for the Net Install CDs are down. I was able to find an older copy (sometime from early October), but when I install it, it complains about not being able to load "aclib" during the "install the base system" part of setup. Next I wanted to try downloading the full images with Jigdo (thinking it may fix the problem), but the Jigdo homepage is down. I really don't want to download the full CD images directly (I want to try out the latest unstable or testing system), so any suggestions on how I can get net install or Jigdo to work would be most helpful. Thanks. - -- Anton Markov <("anton" + "@" + "truxtar" + "." + "com")> GnuPG Key fingerprint = 5546 A6E2 1FFB 9BB8 15C3 CE34 46B7 8D93 3AD1 44B4 "The difference between insanity and genius is measured only by success." - Some bad guy from 007 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQE/8bNRRreNkzrRRLQRAqXkAKCPHTNZPmYerUkLAgysksriTp0GTACePDMk H5vA9jpRefj+79qUadHQz+k= =dCGJ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From pjc-6duGhz7i8susTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 30 18:32:59 2003 From: pjc-6duGhz7i8susTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Paul Croft) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 13:32:59 -0500 Subject: Debian installation In-Reply-To: <3FF1B348.9040803-F0u+EriZ6ihBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <3FF1B348.9040803@truxtar.com> Message-ID: <1072809179.1144.3.camel@libranet-alien> Have you tried one of the other servers? (secondary mirrors) you may have some luck http://www.debian.org/mirror/list.....I noticed a sunsite server at U of alberta, have had pretty good luck with that in the past. On Tue, 2003-12-30 at 12:18, Anton Markov wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > Hello guys, > > I want to try out Debian (while I am on break from school), but I am > running into one problem after another. > > First of all, what's happening with the Debian servers? I know they shut > down after the breakin, but it seems like they are not back up yet. The > servers for the Net Install CDs are down. I was able to find an older > copy (sometime from early October), but when I install it, it complains > about not being able to load "aclib" during the "install the base > system" part of setup. > > Next I wanted to try downloading the full images with Jigdo (thinking it > may fix the problem), but the Jigdo homepage is down. I really don't > want to download the full CD images directly (I want to try out the > latest unstable or testing system), so any suggestions on how I can get > net install or Jigdo to work would be most helpful. > > Thanks. > > - -- > Anton Markov <("anton" + "@" + "truxtar" + "." + "com")> > > GnuPG Key fingerprint = > 5546 A6E2 1FFB 9BB8 15C3 CE34 46B7 8D93 3AD1 44B4 > > "The difference between insanity and genius is measured only by success." > - Some bad guy from 007 > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) > Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org > > iD8DBQE/8bNRRreNkzrRRLQRAqXkAKCPHTNZPmYerUkLAgysksriTp0GTACePDMk > H5vA9jpRefj+79qUadHQz+k= > =dCGJ > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From pjc-6duGhz7i8susTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 30 18:51:53 2003 From: pjc-6duGhz7i8susTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Paul Croft) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 13:51:53 -0500 Subject: Debian installation In-Reply-To: <1072809179.1144.3.camel-2xoaqLyiPmN4BxKGCzJzcQ@public.gmane.org> References: <3FF1B348.9040803@truxtar.com> <1072809179.1144.3.camel@libranet-alien> Message-ID: <1072810313.1140.8.camel@libranet-alien> Sorry to double post but you could also download the floppies, rescue,root,drivers (I think) and then do a net install by picking a server of choice and update to sid or sarge....just a thought.... On Tue, 2003-12-30 at 13:32, Paul Croft wrote: > Have you tried one of the other servers? (secondary mirrors) you may > have some luck http://www.debian.org/mirror/list.....I noticed a sunsite > server at U of alberta, have had pretty good luck with that in the past. > > On Tue, 2003-12-30 at 12:18, Anton Markov wrote: > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > > Hash: SHA1 > > > > Hello guys, > > > > I want to try out Debian (while I am on break from school), but I am > > running into one problem after another. > > > > First of all, what's happening with the Debian servers? I know they shut > > down after the breakin, but it seems like they are not back up yet. The > > servers for the Net Install CDs are down. I was able to find an older > > copy (sometime from early October), but when I install it, it complains > > about not being able to load "aclib" during the "install the base > > system" part of setup. > > > > Next I wanted to try downloading the full images with Jigdo (thinking it > > may fix the problem), but the Jigdo homepage is down. I really don't > > want to download the full CD images directly (I want to try out the > > latest unstable or testing system), so any suggestions on how I can get > > net install or Jigdo to work would be most helpful. > > > > Thanks. > > > > - -- > > Anton Markov <("anton" + "@" + "truxtar" + "." + "com")> > > > > GnuPG Key fingerprint = > > 5546 A6E2 1FFB 9BB8 15C3 CE34 46B7 8D93 3AD1 44B4 > > > > "The difference between insanity and genius is measured only by success." > > - Some bad guy from 007 > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > > Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) > > Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org > > > > iD8DBQE/8bNRRreNkzrRRLQRAqXkAKCPHTNZPmYerUkLAgysksriTp0GTACePDMk > > H5vA9jpRefj+79qUadHQz+k= > > =dCGJ > > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > -- > > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From amarjan-e+AXbWqSrlAAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 30 19:56:40 2003 From: amarjan-e+AXbWqSrlAAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Andrej Marjan) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 14:56:40 -0500 Subject: Debian installation In-Reply-To: <3FF1B348.9040803-F0u+EriZ6ihBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <3FF1B348.9040803@truxtar.com> Message-ID: <20031230195640.GA4925@gondolin.dyndns.org> On Tue, Dec 30, 2003 at 12:18:00PM -0500, Anton Markov wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > Hello guys, > I want to try out Debian (while I am on break from school), but I am > running into one problem after another. > First of all, what's happening with the Debian servers? I know they shut > down after the breakin, but it seems like they are not back up yet. The > servers for the Net Install CDs are down. I was able to find an older > copy (sometime from early October), but when I install it, it complains > about not being able to load "aclib" during the "install the base > system" part of setup. people.debian.org has been up for some time now, and this link certainly works: http://people.debian.org/~dwhedon/boot-floppies/ That's the third net install link from http://www.debian.org/CD/netinst/ . Just grab one of the mini-cd's and you're halfway installed right there. Did you check all the links on the net install page? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From mike-DlQxw/23Tq2aMJb+Lgu22Q at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 30 20:06:27 2003 From: mike-DlQxw/23Tq2aMJb+Lgu22Q at public.gmane.org (Mike Waychison) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 15:06:27 -0500 Subject: Iptables logging under Debian In-Reply-To: <20031227044033.GA4921-DPTsmTRGv3o@public.gmane.org> References: <20031227044033.GA4921@m433> Message-ID: <3FF1DAC3.9000301@waychison.com> Walter Dnes wrote: > I do want to log them, but only to file, not to > console. I'm using log-level 6, like so... > > [0:0] -A UNSOLICITED -j LOG --log-prefix "UNSOLICITED:" --log-level 6 > [0:0] -A UNSOLICITED -j DROP > > The manpage is totally useless. I presume I have to use a different > log-level, but which one ? > You need to turn down the kernel's logging to the console. This is done by the kernel.printk sysctl or by writing to the four values to /proc/sys/kernel/printk : echo "5 4 1 5" > /proc/sys/kernel/printk Where the numbers signify: (first) - The current minimum loglevel to actually show on the console (minimum really meaning maximum in that it will print loglevels 1-5 in the example above). (second) - the default level of kernel printks that don't specify a loglevel (third) - the minimum level to log to the console when syslog disables console logging. (fourth) - the minimum level to log to the console when syslog reenables console logging If you still wanted some other 'info' messages to show up on the console, then you could manually configure them via /etc/syslog.conf (or however your next-gen logger is configured). hth, Mike Waychison -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 251 bytes Desc: not available URL: From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 30 21:09:37 2003 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 16:09:37 -0500 Subject: Data recovery emergency on a downed server... Help please!! In-Reply-To: <3FF0E77C.2000407-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <32803.64.231.131.25.1072675385.squirrel@host.bettermarkets.com> <001501c3cdd9$777ffe20$0301a8c0@amazon> <33148.64.231.131.25.1072681697.squirrel@host.bettermarkets.com> <3FF0447D.5050803@truxtar.com> <33284.64.231.131.25.1072713105.squirrel@host.bettermarkets.com> <20031229231230.GA7005@m433> <3FF0B8FF.8030302@rogers.com> <009d01c3ce77$13a9a1a0$c07ba8c0@dave> <3FF0E77C.2000407@rogers.com> Message-ID: <3FF1E991.8010103@alteeve.com> Hi again Byron, Oh, I would say I know a little about RAID... ;) I don't ship a server without -at least- RAID 1 and the new replacement server does indeed have two Seagate Barracuda 7200.7 SATA 120GB drives in software RAID 1 but alas the server that dies was inherited and built on "budget" parts... I am also implementing a tape rotation on a new DDS4 drive where there is a tape for Mon-Thu then four Fri tapes to be rotated. Others have recommended the same scheme like you, and I have personally implemented this scheme for years and it works like a charm... I'll post an update in a sec... Madison Byron Sonne wrote: >> Madison (who has passed the 24hours mark and wishes she could just get a >> break and then go home!!) > > > Please let us know how this all turns out. I'm quite interested in the > ultimate resolution! Sounds like a text book case of the typical failed > drive/bad tape nightmare scenario. > > I've been through this kind of hell but it was when I was part of the > dark side and had to restore MS boxen, or attempt to, from bad > Veritas/BackupExec and/or Legato backups (though most of the time it > worked). Part of the overall procedure (which mind you wasn't followed > regularly for whatever reasons) was periodic restores to make sure > everything would work when called upon. Nothing like having a shelf full > of backups that turn out to be shitworthy in the end. > > Oh; I would avoid CDs for backup... I've used numerous brands across > multiple writers and I'm finding that they are just not trustworthy > enough over time. Some people seem to have something against tape, but > I'd be far more inclined to trust DLT over CD. And keep them drives > clean! It does help. > > My experience with using RAID (level 5 or similar levels of redundancy) > is that it obviates the need for 90% of the restores I would have had to > do in the past. Except, of course, people that want a restore done to > get an old version of a file back. RAID is not a panacea, but who gives > a shit about a busted drive or a 12 hour restore when you can just pop > in a new drive with nary a hiccup? If you got the money, go RAID and > complement it with a good backup system (I like DLT). Given a solid and > well designed IT infrastructure, using good stuff, backups should be > solid, reliable, and never, ever needed. Or for those with massive > amounts of data, go SAN. > > While I'm rambling on, make sure you have clean electrical power, > preferably backed up with a UPS. Numerous restores I've done in the past > would have been avoided if the machine didn't hiccup or crash due to a > brownout or power failure. They don't have to keep your boxen running > for days on end, just enough time to close open files and back down > gracefully. They also help for restores and backups; rather annoying > when a long, long restore craps out midway through due to a power > glitch. Tapes will also be more reliable if your power is clean too, but > I suppose that is conjecture. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 30 21:12:09 2003 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 16:12:09 -0500 Subject: Data recovery emergency on a downed server... Help please!! In-Reply-To: <3FF0FE27.7060207-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <32803.64.231.131.25.1072675385.squirrel@host.bettermarkets.com> <001501c3cdd9$777ffe20$0301a8c0@amazon> <33148.64.231.131.25.1072681697.squirrel@host.bettermarkets.com> <3FF0447D.5050803@truxtar.com> <33284.64.231.131.25.1072713105.squirrel@host.bettermarkets.com> <20031229231230.GA7005@m433> <3FF0B8FF.8030302@rogers.com> <009d01c3ce77$13a9a1a0$c07ba8c0@dave> <3FF0FE27.7060207@rogers.com> Message-ID: <3FF1EA29.7000600@alteeve.com> Thank you for the info on 'star', I didn't know about that and it definately is a bonus. Thanks! Madison Ilya Palagin wrote: > Madison Kelly wrote: > >> Yep, still under OE (*shudder*) >> >> Thanks for the suggestion, Walter. I did make a copy of the tar.gz >> file but >> I got nothing useful out of it. I am still waiting now for the darn >> activation code for a MS-based ext3-aware data recovery tool... Maybe >> that >> will finally crack my rough luck thus far - if it ever arrives! >> >> Tom, thanks for the note about gunzip -c being the same as zcat. I >> will make >> another backup and give that a go, though my hopes are narrow... Oh, and >> given the current state of my hardware; I certainly would not trust my >> tape >> to make another dump so Walter's suggestion is/was valid. >> >> Madison (who has passed the 24hours mark and wishes she could just get a >> break and then go home!!) > > > For your daily backup operations, a recommend you to use star instead of > tar. star has a nice "diff" option, which allows to verify backups. Like > tar, it's multiplatform, so you can take your tapes to a friend with the > same tape drive and try to restore data on his system to make sure that > your backups make sence. > >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Legrady" >> To: >> Sent: Monday, December 29, 2003 6:30 PM >> Subject: Re: [TLUG]: Data recovery emergency on a downed server... Help >> please!! >> >> >> >>> Don't use zcat to decompress a file ... use the appropriate tool, >>> gunzip: >>> >>> gunzip file.tar.gz >>> ls file.tar >>> >>> NB. gunzip -c file.tar.gz is identical to zcat/ >>> >>> >>> He already has a backup of the tar.gz ... it's called a tape >>> >>> Tom >>> >>> Walter Dnes wrote: >>> >>> >>>> On Mon, Dec 29, 2003 at 10:51:45AM -0500, Madison Kelly wrote >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> PS - I got a dd of th last tape that ran (finally) and it is about >>>>> 3.6GB >>>>> (about right). I extracted it as a tar.gz (which should work) but it >> >> >> fails >> >>>>> claiming to not be a gzip archive... Any ideas on that front by >>>>> chance? >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> *MAKE A BACKUP COPY OF THE TAR.GZ FILE FIRST* !!! >>>> >>>> Straight from the man page... >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> tar -xvvzf foo.tar.gz >>>>> extract gzipped foo.tar.gz >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> ..did you remember the "z" parameter ? >>>> >>>> I've had similar problems with tar.bz2 archives. I find that doing it >>>> one step at a time works. Note, you will need a *LOT* more diskspace. >>>> >>>> Step 1) zcat filename.tar.gz > filename.tar >>>> The "zcat" executable is named "gzcat" in some versions. Use whichever >>>> one works on your system. >>>> >>>> Step 2) tar -xvf filename.tar -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 30 21:13:19 2003 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 16:13:19 -0500 Subject: Data recovery emergency on a downed server... Help please!! In-Reply-To: References: <32803.64.231.131.25.1072675385.squirrel@host.bettermarkets.com> <001501c3cdd9$777ffe20$0301a8c0@amazon> <33148.64.231.131.25.1072681697.squirrel@host.bettermarkets.com> Message-ID: <3FF1EA6F.3040707@alteeve.com> I have passed the drive off to a data recovery house but if the drive is recovered and the drive is still intact when it's all over I will try this out for personal practice. Thank you!! Madison Robert Brockway wrote: > On Mon, 29 Dec 2003, Madison Kelly wrote: > > Hi Maddy. I hope you got some sleep last night... > > >>I know that backups of the superblock are made, do you know by chance how >>to locate them and/or how to tell the OS to use one for mounting? Also, at > > > No one mentioned this (and I didn't read TLUG yesterday) so here it is: > > /sbin/dumpe2fs /dev/hdxy (where xy is a1, b2, etc) will give you this > info. There is quite a lot of output so redirect it to a file and read it > with less, eg: > > /sbin/dumpe2fs /dev/hde3 > /tmp/hde3.info > > Search for the word "Superblock" > > Now, take that number and use it with e2fsck -b, > > Eg I have "Superblock at 163840" listed for /dev/hde3, so I could try: > > e2fsck -b 163840 /dev/hde3. > > Remember to only work on backup copies! See below. > > >>least two partitions on the drive have gone bad... > > > Different filesystems (partitions) being bad makes it far less likely it > is a filesystem problem. > > Also, the use of dd was mentioned. This is good but there is no need to > write it to a physical drive. You can write the dd to a file and mount it > using loopback and attempt recovery on that. As long as you keep a good > copy of the filesystem file around you can keep trying things over and > over on copies. > > Good luck. > > Rob -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 30 21:41:17 2003 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 16:41:17 -0500 Subject: Update: Data recovery emergency... In-Reply-To: <32803.64.231.131.25.1072675385.squirrel-cSwQExXi3C0g59NOP9PCHBGZ6WaZejjh@public.gmane.org> References: <32803.64.231.131.25.1072675385.squirrel@host.bettermarkets.com> Message-ID: <3FF1F0FD.8060008@alteeve.com> First and foremost; THANK YOU to everyone who has helped me out on this!! I decided yesterday to try "Stellar Pheonix Linux" which is a MS-based utility someone here (thank you!) that can attempt data recovery of ext2 and ext3 partitions. It discovered a little over 5,000 files and then Win2k lost the drive entirely. At that, I decided it was time to send it to a data recovery house which I did today. Given the value of the data I decided that I had reached the limit of my (with your help!) expertise. If interested, I will let you know how much (if any) data is saved. Thank you all again! Madison -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From taavi-LbuTpDkqzNzXI80/IeQp7B2eb7JE58TQ at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 30 21:42:22 2003 From: taavi-LbuTpDkqzNzXI80/IeQp7B2eb7JE58TQ at public.gmane.org (Taavi Burns) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 14:42:22 -0700 Subject: Formatting in C++ (fwd) In-Reply-To: References: <200312291714.40349.wildberger@cogeco.ca> Message-ID: <20031230214222.GA46271@idiom.novusordo.net> On Tue, Dec 30, 2003 at 11:37:32AM -0500, Jing Su wrote: > Many people swear by ObjectiveC, calling it "object oriented C done > right". I know the syntax, but haven't used it enough to be familiar with > it's ups and downs. But if you're looking into learning an object > oriented style language with a C background, ObjC might be the thing to > look into. And before one dismisses ObjC because one has never heard of it, do realise that NeXT was built on it, as is OSX. And yes, GCC 3 compiles ObjC code (generally .m and .h files). This sample chapter from O'Reilly is a good (generic, non Apple- specific despite the book itself) introduction to ObjC: http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/learncocoa2/chapter/index.html -- taa We know today that the brain we are born with is not the finished product it was once thought to be. The structuring of the brain depends very much on experiences gone through in the first hours, days, and weeks of a person's life. --Alice Miller, Ph.D. /*eof*/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 30 22:29:19 2003 From: cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org (cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 17:29:19 -0500 Subject: Formatting in C++ (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message from Jing Su of "Tue, 30 Dec 2003 11:37:32 EST." References: <200312291714.40349.wildberger@cogeco.ca> Message-ID: <20031230222920.94C683FE2@cbbrowne.com> > > > learning a language like Perl, Python, Ruby, Lisp, or Scheme will be a lo t > > > more fun. > > > > Depends on your definition of fun :) > > Many people swear by ObjectiveC, calling it "object oriented C done > right". I know the syntax, but haven't used it enough to be familiar with > it's ups and downs. But if you're looking into learning an object > oriented style language with a C background, ObjC might be the thing to > look into. Objective C is essentially C with an object system that uses Smalltalk-like syntax. _Incredibly_ simpler than C++'s object system; I would MUCH rather write Objective C than C++... It would be expected to be a bit slower than C++ due to more dynamic handling of method dispatch, although that's probably only by a small percentage. -- let name="cbbrowne" and tld="acm.org" in name ^ "@" ^ tld;; http://cbbrowne.com/info/lsf.html Rules of the Evil Overlord #7. "When I've captured my adversary and he says, "Look, before you kill me, will you at least tell me what this is all about?" I'll say, "No." and shoot him. No, on second thought I'll shoot him then say "No."" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From mwilson-4YeSL8/OYKRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 30 20:41:02 2003 From: mwilson-4YeSL8/OYKRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Mel Wilson) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 15:41:02 -0500 Subject: Where to buy CDs for linux distributions? References: Message-ID: In article , S P Arif Sahari Wibowo wrote: >Do you know where I can buy CDs created from downloadable linux >distributions? >Yes, I know I can just download and write it myself, but if the CDs can be >cheap enough, the convenience may worth the difference. I've been getting Slackware releases from UofT bookstore. They're not always in stock, so it might take a few visits. Regards. Mel. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From rgfranks-cmaem7PIVQT44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 31 04:02:33 2003 From: rgfranks-cmaem7PIVQT44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Greg Franks) Date: 30 Dec 2003 23:02:33 -0500 Subject: Formatting in C++ (fwd) In-Reply-To: <20031230222920.94C683FE2-xzRQuAxiFLNWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org> References: <200312291714.40349.wildberger@cogeco.ca> <20031230222920.94C683FE2@cbbrowne.com> Message-ID: >>>>> "Christopher" == Christopher Browne writes: Christopher> Objective C is essentially C with an object system Christopher> that uses Smalltalk-like syntax. _Incredibly_ Christopher> simpler than C++'s object system; I would MUCH rather Christopher> write Objective C than C++... I think if you can grok Java, you can handle Objective C. The object systems are the same. Further, the same restrictions w.r.t. the types int and char apply. The only real gotcha is that Objective C's syntax is a touch bizarre... [anObject elementsPerform:aMethod]; ie, it looks more like smalltalk. -- __@ Greg Franks <| _~@ __O _`\<,_ Ottawa, Ontario, Canada |O\ -^\<;^\<, (*)/ (*) (*)--(*)%---/(*) "Where do you want to go today?" Outside. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jingsu-26n5VD7DAF2Tm46uYYfjYg at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 31 04:11:55 2003 From: jingsu-26n5VD7DAF2Tm46uYYfjYg at public.gmane.org (Jing Su) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 23:11:55 -0500 Subject: now off topic: Formatting in C++ (fwd) In-Reply-To: References: <200312291714.40349.wildberger@cogeco.ca> <20031230222920.94C683FE2@cbbrowne.com> Message-ID: > I think if you can grok Java, you can handle Objective C. The object > systems are the same. Further, the same restrictions w.r.t. the types > int and char apply. The only real gotcha is that Objective C's syntax > is a touch bizarre... > > [anObject elementsPerform:aMethod]; > > ie, it looks more like smalltalk. Objective C's syntax is a message passing style. Which made me wonder... many research studies have shown that high-throughput systems run better when designed as asycnronous event systems. Thread-based systems are very hard to push at high-performance ranges. But computer science curriculums mainly (only?) push the Thread model when talking about concurrent execution. I've met many people that have a hard time working with asynch event systems, which is too bad. It's actually quite clean and simple once you get the gist of it. I wonder what the software landscape would be like if curriculums started with ObjectiveC instead of Java, and moved on to concurrent asynch events instead of threads. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jvetterli-zC6tqtfhjqE at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 31 14:47:09 2003 From: jvetterli-zC6tqtfhjqE at public.gmane.org (John Vetterli) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 09:47:09 -0500 (EST) Subject: Data recovery emergency on a downed server... Help please!! In-Reply-To: <3FF1EA29.7000600-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <32803.64.231.131.25.1072675385.squirrel@host.bettermarkets.com> <001501c3cdd9$777ffe20$0301a8c0@amazon> <33148.64.231.131.25.1072681697.squirrel@host.bettermarkets.com> <3FF0447D.5050803@truxtar.com> <33284.64.231.131.25.1072713105.squirrel@host.bettermarkets.com> <20031229231230.GA7005@m433> <3FF0B8FF.8030302@rogers.com> <009d01c3ce77$13a9a1a0$c07ba8c0@dave> <3FF0FE27.7060207@rogers.com> <3FF1EA29.7000600@alteeve.com> Message-ID: > Ilya Palagin wrote: > > For your daily backup operations, a recommend you to use star instead of > > tar. star has a nice "diff" option, which allows to verify backups. Like BTW, GNU tar has a diff option as well (tar df ). JV -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From tim-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 31 16:45:28 2003 From: tim-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Tim Writer) Date: 31 Dec 2003 11:45:28 -0500 Subject: now off topic: Formatting in C++ (fwd) In-Reply-To: References: <200312291714.40349.wildberger@cogeco.ca> <20031230222920.94C683FE2@cbbrowne.com> Message-ID: Jing Su writes: > But computer science curriculums mainly (only?) push the Thread model > when talking about concurrent execution. I've met many people that have > a hard time working with asynch event systems, which is too bad. It's > actually quite clean and simple once you get the gist of it. There's a famous quote from Alan Cox which goes something like this: Threads are for programmers who don't understand state machines. Computers are state machines. > I wonder what the software landscape would be like if curriculums started > with ObjectiveC instead of Java, and moved on to concurrent asynch events > instead of threads. I'd like to see them teach two very different languages in parallel in the first year, e.g. Java and Scheme. I suppose you could argue ObjectiveC is two very different languages rolled into one. :) -- tim writer starnix inc. 905.771.0017 ext. 225 thornhill, ontario, canada http://www.starnix.com professional linux services & products -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From kcozens-qazKcTl6WRFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 31 17:31:15 2003 From: kcozens-qazKcTl6WRFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Kevin Cozens) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 12:31:15 -0500 Subject: Data recovery emergency on a downed server... Help please!! In-Reply-To: <32803.64.231.131.25.1072675385.squirrel@host.bettermarkets .com> References: <32803.64.231.131.25.1072675385.squirrel@host.bettermarkets .com> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20031230211804.00a7b330@mail.interlog.com> At 12:23 AM 12/29/2003 -0500, Madison wrote: >I have had a drive failure on a server and I can no longer mount the >data partition on the hard drive (/dev/hda5 [ext3 under RH7.3]) because >the replacement server (Fedora Core 1) claims that the drive's >superblock is toast. Sorry to hear about your hard drive and tape drive problems. Hopefully the recovery service will be able to help you. As was suggested earlier I was wondering if using one of the other superblocks would have helped you recover the files if the primary superblock was bad. > Now, before anyone rips me a new one, I -DO- have a tape drive but that, >too, has rather depressingly failed. When I try to recover the files >from the IDE Travan 8GB drive it successdully recovers about 50 files >and then fails with this... I don't have anything against using tape for backups but I do have something against tape drives. I have had four tape drives die on me. Actually, it was three drives. The fourth drive was made up of the two main pieces of two other identical drives that had previously failed in different ways. None of the drives had seen heavy usage. In fact, they had each been used for barely a dozen or so backups (IIRC). This is why I am now looking at the use of DVDs for backup. I already have software that allows me to backup everything in my Windows side of the machine to DVD. It backed up a bit over 6G on to two DVDs and the bonus is that they are bootable so I can recover from bare metal directly from the DVDs. I'm hoping to eventually be able to do something similar under Linux. One other difference between the use of tape and CD/DVD for backup is that the CD/DVD drives (AFAIK) are a lot cheaper to buy/replace should something happen to the drive. There is a place I know of which can repair the tape drives I have at a flat fee of $350 per drive. Only problem is, I don't have confidence that a repaired drive would last any longer then the new ones did. Cheers! Kevin. (http://www.interlog.com/~kcozens/) Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172 |"What are we going to do today, Borg?" E-mail:kcozens at interlog dot com|"Same thing we always do, Pinkutus: Packet:ve3syb-XXPEJ3/fxIc at public.gmane.org#con.on.ca.na| Try to assimilate the world!" #include | -Pinkutus & the Borg -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From kcozens-qazKcTl6WRFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 31 17:37:37 2003 From: kcozens-qazKcTl6WRFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Kevin Cozens) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 12:37:37 -0500 Subject: Kernel 2.6 compile: Comaptability? In-Reply-To: <1072486950.2428.5.camel-MUrQqSjliZg@public.gmane.org> References: <1072486950.2428.5.camel@gandalf> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20031231123247.02ad0c50@mail.interlog.com> At 08:02 PM 12/26/2003 -0500, Paul King wrote: >An earlier poster posed what was a good issue: that I ought to check my >software for compatability with the kernel. OK, so I try to check, but >the compatability list doesn't appear to be in its usual place. Anyone >know where this stuff is? I don't know where the 'usual place' is supposed to be. Since I wanted to get the 2.6 kernel running on my own machine I looked in to this and found a simple answer. Take a look at the Changes file under the Documentation directory of the 2.6.0 kernel source tree. It lists everything you might need to update and what minimum version you should have. On my RH9 machine, I only needed to update procps and install the module-init-tools (replaces modtools). I still have some issues regarding my Terayon Cable modem which I access via the USB port. I haven't found out how to get a CDCEther module yet (which may not be the right thing to use with my cable modem but it works under 2.4), the sound system, and being able to have it shut the power off to my computer when I ask it to, but I have been able to boot a 2.6 kernel. Cheers! Kevin. (http://www.interlog.com/~kcozens/) Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172 |"What are we going to do today, Borg?" E-mail:kcozens at interlog dot com|"Same thing we always do, Pinkutus: Packet:ve3syb-XXPEJ3/fxIc at public.gmane.org#con.on.ca.na| Try to assimilate the world!" #include | -Pinkutus & the Borg -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 31 17:48:42 2003 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 12:48:42 -0500 Subject: Data recovery emergency on a downed server... Help please!! In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20031230211804.00a7b330-Nf8GSVjHSL5zk1aGpazrEgC/G2K4zDHf@public.gmane.org> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20031230211804.00a7b330@mail.interlog.com> Message-ID: <3FF30BFA.408@alteeve.com> I have been hearing over and over again how tape drives are far less reliable than I once believed... I am now giving serious thought to alternative backup schemes but I -have- to find something that will be easy to maintain lest user apathy kick in and the backups stop occuring. So far, I have helped negate the nee for a future recovery a certain amount by implementing a RAID1 mirror however that will do nothing to prevent more than a single disk failure. I have thought about DVD-/+RW drives but that would require more effort on the part of the users; see above fear. Finally, I have been thinking about getting a collection of laptop-size HDD and placing them into external USB2.0-powered chassis and writting a script to do the copy. This would allow for a simple swap of a chassis each day and would be a lot faster, to boot. The only fear there is the initial setup cost. As for the superblock; if I was more confident in my own abilities I would have tried exactly that. The problem is that the last PC actually lost the drive indicating a hardware failure. Given the value of the data, I was not willing to risk any further proding by me. If the data is recovered and the original drive is still intact than for practice I will try just that. Again, I can't express enough how much I appreciate all the help everyone has given me in this!! Madison (who has finally gotten herself a good night's sleep!!) Kevin Cozens wrote: > At 12:23 AM 12/29/2003 -0500, Madison wrote: > >> I have had a drive failure on a server and I can no longer mount the >> data partition on the hard drive (/dev/hda5 [ext3 under RH7.3]) because >> the replacement server (Fedora Core 1) claims that the drive's >> superblock is toast. > > > Sorry to hear about your hard drive and tape drive problems. Hopefully > the recovery service will be able to help you. As was suggested earlier > I was wondering if using one of the other superblocks would have helped > you recover the files if the primary superblock was bad. > >> Now, before anyone rips me a new one, I -DO- have a tape drive but >> that, >> too, has rather depressingly failed. When I try to recover the files >> from the IDE Travan 8GB drive it successdully recovers about 50 files >> and then fails with this... > > > I don't have anything against using tape for backups but I do have > something against tape drives. I have had four tape drives die on me. > Actually, it was three drives. The fourth drive was made up of the two > main pieces of two other identical drives that had previously failed in > different ways. None of the drives had seen heavy usage. In fact, they > had each been used for barely a dozen or so backups (IIRC). > > This is why I am now looking at the use of DVDs for backup. I already > have software that allows me to backup everything in my Windows side of > the machine to DVD. It backed up a bit over 6G on to two DVDs and the > bonus is that they are bootable so I can recover from bare metal > directly from the DVDs. I'm hoping to eventually be able to do something > similar under Linux. > > One other difference between the use of tape and CD/DVD for backup is > that the CD/DVD drives (AFAIK) are a lot cheaper to buy/replace should > something happen to the drive. There is a place I know of which can > repair the tape drives I have at a flat fee of $350 per drive. Only > problem is, I don't have confidence that a repaired drive would last any > longer then the new ones did. > > > Cheers! > > Kevin. (http://www.interlog.com/~kcozens/) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From wmcgilvery-6d3DWWOeJtE at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 31 17:55:58 2003 From: wmcgilvery-6d3DWWOeJtE at public.gmane.org (Wil McGilvery) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 12:55:58 -0500 Subject: Data recovery emergency on a downed server... Help please!! Message-ID: <65B7B304AA3DE147BBD33938FE204E283191D8@lynchmail.lynch.msft> I find DAT tapes to be a waste of time and energy. I do find DLT and Ultruim tapes to be a reliable source for backing up data. These are more expensive that dat tapes but you get what you pay for. Backups in my opinion will never be a set it and forget it procedure. Periodic restores are necessary for peace of and the assurance that you can restore when necessary. It is also important to regularly clean your tape drives. I have not heard of anyone successfully using cd's for backup purposes, but I do know of people using removable hard drives as an alternate to tape backups. Good Luck. Regards, Wil McGilvery Manager Lynch Digital Media Inc 416-744-7949 416-716-3964 (cell) 1-866-314-4678 416-744-0406? FAX www.LynchDigital.com -----Original Message----- From: Madison Kelly [mailto:linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org] Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2003 12:49 PM To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Subject: Re: [TLUG]: Data recovery emergency on a downed server... Help please!! I have been hearing over and over again how tape drives are far less reliable than I once believed... I am now giving serious thought to alternative backup schemes but I -have- to find something that will be easy to maintain lest user apathy kick in and the backups stop occuring. So far, I have helped negate the nee for a future recovery a certain amount by implementing a RAID1 mirror however that will do nothing to prevent more than a single disk failure. I have thought about DVD-/+RW drives but that would require more effort on the part of the users; see above fear. Finally, I have been thinking about getting a collection of laptop-size HDD and placing them into external USB2.0-powered chassis and writting a script to do the copy. This would allow for a simple swap of a chassis each day and would be a lot faster, to boot. The only fear there is the initial setup cost. As for the superblock; if I was more confident in my own abilities I would have tried exactly that. The problem is that the last PC actually lost the drive indicating a hardware failure. Given the value of the data, I was not willing to risk any further proding by me. If the data is recovered and the original drive is still intact than for practice I will try just that. Again, I can't express enough how much I appreciate all the help everyone has given me in this!! Madison (who has finally gotten herself a good night's sleep!!) Kevin Cozens wrote: > At 12:23 AM 12/29/2003 -0500, Madison wrote: > >> I have had a drive failure on a server and I can no longer mount the >> data partition on the hard drive (/dev/hda5 [ext3 under RH7.3]) because >> the replacement server (Fedora Core 1) claims that the drive's >> superblock is toast. > > > Sorry to hear about your hard drive and tape drive problems. Hopefully > the recovery service will be able to help you. As was suggested earlier > I was wondering if using one of the other superblocks would have helped > you recover the files if the primary superblock was bad. > >> Now, before anyone rips me a new one, I -DO- have a tape drive but >> that, >> too, has rather depressingly failed. When I try to recover the files >> from the IDE Travan 8GB drive it successdully recovers about 50 files >> and then fails with this... > > > I don't have anything against using tape for backups but I do have > something against tape drives. I have had four tape drives die on me. > Actually, it was three drives. The fourth drive was made up of the two > main pieces of two other identical drives that had previously failed in > different ways. None of the drives had seen heavy usage. In fact, they > had each been used for barely a dozen or so backups (IIRC). > > This is why I am now looking at the use of DVDs for backup. I already > have software that allows me to backup everything in my Windows side of > the machine to DVD. It backed up a bit over 6G on to two DVDs and the > bonus is that they are bootable so I can recover from bare metal > directly from the DVDs. I'm hoping to eventually be able to do something > similar under Linux. > > One other difference between the use of tape and CD/DVD for backup is > that the CD/DVD drives (AFAIK) are a lot cheaper to buy/replace should > something happen to the drive. There is a place I know of which can > repair the tape drives I have at a flat fee of $350 per drive. Only > problem is, I don't have confidence that a repaired drive would last any > longer then the new ones did. > > > Cheers! > > Kevin. (http://www.interlog.com/~kcozens/) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From wmcgilvery-6d3DWWOeJtE at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 31 18:10:35 2003 From: wmcgilvery-6d3DWWOeJtE at public.gmane.org (Wil McGilvery) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 13:10:35 -0500 Subject: What I really wanted for Christmas Message-ID: <65B7B304AA3DE147BBD33938FE204E284A969B@lynchmail.lynch.msft> I am currently looking at Samsung Contact, Bynari and Communigate Pro as possible replacement solutions to our Exchange server and I would be interested in hearing from any one who is using these programs. I am not looking at replacing Outlook at this time. I would also be interested in hearing from anyone who is using a combination of IMAP and a scheduling tool to replace the scheduling feature of Exchange. Regards, Wil McGilvery Manager Lynch Digital Media Inc 416-744-7949 416-716-3964 (cell) 1-866-314-4678 416-744-0406? FAX www.LynchDigital.com -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From tenger-ew0EfhANLmVEfu+5ix1nRw at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 31 18:31:45 2003 From: tenger-ew0EfhANLmVEfu+5ix1nRw at public.gmane.org (Terrence Enger) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 13:31:45 -0500 Subject: Data recovery emergency on a downed server... Help please!! In-Reply-To: <65B7B304AA3DE147BBD33938FE204E283191D8@lynchmail.lynch.msf t> References: <65B7B304AA3DE147BBD33938FE204E283191D8@lynchmail.lynch.msf t> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20031231133145.00ebc50c@mail.look.ca> At 12:55 2003-12-31 -0500, Wil McGilvery wrote: > > I have not heard of anyone successfully using cd's for backup purposes, but I do know of people using removable hard drives as an alternate to tape backups. > I have been using CDs for a while now. Quite frankly, the cost of writer and media was the motivating factor, and I thought that tape would be "better". However, the earlier comments here make me think maybe I made a lucky choice. The backup CDs carried me through one recovery after I hosed my system quite thoroughly, and every month or so they save me after a slip of the brain. But, now that you mention it, it *is* time to test complete recovery again. BTW, I have Windows and Linux machines at my desk. I find myself moveing more and more to the Linux box just because my Linux backup procedure is easy enough that I can run it frequently. Terry. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From wmcgilvery-6d3DWWOeJtE at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 31 18:41:26 2003 From: wmcgilvery-6d3DWWOeJtE at public.gmane.org (Wil McGilvery) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 13:41:26 -0500 Subject: Data recovery emergency on a downed server... Help please!! Message-ID: <65B7B304AA3DE147BBD33938FE204E284A969C@lynchmail.lynch.msft> One success story is better than none :) Thanks for the info. Regards, Wil McGilvery Manager Lynch Digital Media Inc 416-744-7949 416-716-3964 (cell) 1-866-314-4678 416-744-0406? FAX www.LynchDigital.com -----Original Message----- From: Terrence Enger [mailto:tenger-ew0EfhANLmVEfu+5ix1nRw at public.gmane.org] Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2003 1:32 PM To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Subject: RE: [TLUG]: Data recovery emergency on a downed server... Help please!! At 12:55 2003-12-31 -0500, Wil McGilvery wrote: > > I have not heard of anyone successfully using cd's for backup purposes, but I do know of people using removable hard drives as an alternate to tape backups. > I have been using CDs for a while now. Quite frankly, the cost of writer and media was the motivating factor, and I thought that tape would be "better". However, the earlier comments here make me think maybe I made a lucky choice. The backup CDs carried me through one recovery after I hosed my system quite thoroughly, and every month or so they save me after a slip of the brain. But, now that you mention it, it *is* time to test complete recovery again. BTW, I have Windows and Linux machines at my desk. I find myself moveing more and more to the Linux box just because my Linux backup procedure is easy enough that I can run it frequently. Terry. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From wildberger-iRg7kjdsKiH3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 31 14:11:21 2003 From: wildberger-iRg7kjdsKiH3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (John Wildberger) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 09:11:21 -0500 Subject: now off topic: Formatting in C++ (fwd) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200312310911.21145.wildberger@cogeco.ca> I find it always amusing when highly intelligent people start arguing about the pros and cons of computer languages. They are all designed to fill a need to accomplish certain tasks. As people have different needs, they will use different tools. The degree of complexity is no measure for comparing one language with another. Languages evolve from simple to more complex to accommodate more and more sophisticred needs. The C++ language bears evidence to this. This makes it more valuable rather than less. For just understanding basic concepts ObjectiveC is a fine language. To all of you, Best Wishes for the New Year. John On December 31, 2003 11:45 am, Tim Writer wrote: > Jing Su writes: > > But computer science curriculums mainly (only?) push the Thread model > > when talking about concurrent execution. I've met many people that have > > a hard time working with asynch event systems, which is too bad. It's > > actually quite clean and simple once you get the gist of it. > > There's a famous quote from Alan Cox which goes something like this: > > Threads are for programmers who don't understand state machines. > Computers are state machines. > > > I wonder what the software landscape would be like if curriculums started > > with ObjectiveC instead of Java, and moved on to concurrent asynch events > > instead of threads. > > I'd like to see them teach two very different languages in parallel in the > first year, e.g. Java and Scheme. I suppose you could argue ObjectiveC is > two very different languages rolled into one. :) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From mervc-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 31 19:22:17 2003 From: mervc-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org (Merv Curley) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 14:22:17 -0500 Subject: Debian installation In-Reply-To: <3FF1B348.9040803-F0u+EriZ6ihBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <3FF1B348.9040803@truxtar.com> Message-ID: <200312311422.17290.mervc@eol.ca> On December 30, 2003 12:18 pm, Anton Markov wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > Hello guys, > > I want to try out Debian (while I am on break from school), but I am > running into one problem after another. > Libranet is a Debian system developed by Canucks in B.C. The last release 'iso's' are free on their Website libranet.com. Just to experiment it should be ok, or you can get experience with the apt-get ( or aptitude ) method of updating. Assuming you have a high speed connection. Cheerio -- Merv Curley Scarborough, Ont Libranet Linux 2.8 KDE 3.1.4 KMail 1.5.4 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 29 18:33:20 2003 From: plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg at public.gmane.org (Peter L. Peres) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 20:33:20 +0200 (IST) Subject: default browser In-Reply-To: <20031229174612.GA3557-/d9U08IjUQs@public.gmane.org> References: <20031229174612.GA3557@debian> Message-ID: kfm->edit->"mime types"->text->html.kdelnk edit with kedit (carefully). The path to Mozilla is given by issuing 'which Mozilla' in a shell. Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From ppieczora-Z6LL8UJvm6I at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 31 22:01:27 2003 From: ppieczora-Z6LL8UJvm6I at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 16:01:27 -0600 Subject: qtpixmap Message-ID: <200312311601.28164.ppieczora@dsl.ca> I'm having problems loading gnome apps. (gimp-1.3:1209): Gtk-WARNING **: Unable to locate theme engine in module_path: "qtpixmap" (evolution:1311): Gtk-WARNING **: Unable to locate theme engine in module_path: "qtpixmap" ...... and so on. All gtk2 apps behave the same, they start but there is no text displayed. removing geramik, and qtpixmap does the same, except there is different msg. Distribution I'm using is suse 9.0 downloaded from their ftp server. I'm wondering if ppl who installed boxed version of suse 9.0 experienced same problems. Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 31 21:09:43 2003 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 16:09:43 -0500 Subject: Ptoblem solved (was: Iptables logging under Debian) In-Reply-To: <3FF1DAC3.9000301-DlQxw/23Tq2aMJb+Lgu22Q@public.gmane.org> References: <20031227044033.GA4921@m433> <3FF1DAC3.9000301@waychison.com> Message-ID: <20031231210943.GA8226@m433> On Tue, Dec 30, 2003 at 03:06:27PM -0500, Mike Waychison wrote > You need to turn down the kernel's logging to the console. This is done > by the kernel.printk sysctl or by writing to the four values to > /proc/sys/kernel/printk : > > echo "5 4 1 5" > /proc/sys/kernel/printk I've finally figured out what happened. What's personally satisfying is that I've also figured out why it didn't log in the past, but logs today. In the past *ALL* logging was handled by sysklogd, which dutifully follows the instructions in syslog.conf. The kernel maintainers, in their infinite wisdom, have recently decided to split the logging functions between klogd and sysklogd. According to the klogd manpage The functionality of klogd has been typically incorporated into other versions of syslogd but this seems to be a poor place for it. In the modern Linux kernel a number of ker? nel messaging issues such as sourcing, prioritization and resolution of kernel addresses must be addressed. Incor? porating kernel logging into a separate process offers a cleaner separation of services. And further quoting the same manpage... inclusion of default messaging levels for the kernel. In a stock kernel the the default console log level is set to 7. Any messages with a priority level numerically lower than 7 (higher priority) appear on the console. This is why the Debian kernel was logging those messages, when the Redhat 7.3 kernel was not. And since klogd doesn't follow syslog.conf, telling syslog.conf not to log info messages doesn't help. There are two solutions. 1) I chose to change to log-level 7. This is "debug", and does not get printed to console by the default klogd setup. 2) "klogd -c 6" in the init scripts would tell klogd not to print level 6 or 7 messages to console. -- Walter Dnes Email users are divided into two classes; 1) Those who have effective spam-blocking 2) Those who wish they did -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From kcozens-qazKcTl6WRFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 31 21:36:08 2003 From: kcozens-qazKcTl6WRFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Kevin Cozens) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 16:36:08 -0500 Subject: Data recovery emergency on a downed server... Help please!! In-Reply-To: <65B7B304AA3DE147BBD33938FE204E283191D8@lynchmail.lynch.msf t> References: <65B7B304AA3DE147BBD33938FE204E283191D8@lynchmail.lynch.msf t> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20031231132455.02ad2570@mail.interlog.com> At 12:55 PM 12/31/2003 -0500, Wil McGilvery wrote: >Backups in my opinion will never be a set it and forget it procedure. >Periodic restores are necessary for peace of and the assurance that you >can restore when necessary. Tape and CD/DVD changers help but if the data is critical, someone still has to physically move the backups off-site and put fresh tapes or CD/DVDs in to the changer. >I have not heard of anyone successfully using cd's for backup purposes, >but I do know of people using removable hard drives as an alternate to >tape backups. No one has successfully used CD's or DVD's? What sort of stories have you heard? Perhaps they were using el cheapo CD's? If one is serious about having good backups, you don't go for the cheapest backup media you can get. Cheers! Kevin. (http://www.interlog.com/~kcozens/) Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172 |"What are we going to do today, Borg?" E-mail:kcozens at interlog dot com|"Same thing we always do, Pinkutus: Packet:ve3syb-XXPEJ3/fxIc at public.gmane.org#con.on.ca.na| Try to assimilate the world!" #include | -Pinkutus & the Borg -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From wmcgilvery-6d3DWWOeJtE at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 31 21:59:16 2003 From: wmcgilvery-6d3DWWOeJtE at public.gmane.org (Wil McGilvery) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 16:59:16 -0500 Subject: Data recovery emergency on a downed server... Help please!! Message-ID: <65B7B304AA3DE147BBD33938FE204E283191DA@lynchmail.lynch.msft> I do not like using CD's because the storage is too small. Even DVD's are not quite big enough to completely back up a system. They are also cheap and you can still experience unreliability. Even the "good" cd's are still too unreliable for me. When I first got started I used dat tapes and sold some to customers. That was a big mistake. I was replacing the tape drive every year and once I had a new tape drive it was a crap shoot as to whether I could perform a restore or not from an old tape. If you are backing up your own data on your own system at your house then do what ever works because obviously price is a consideration, but if you are responsible for mission critical data, don't go cheap. It is just not worth it. Spend the money and do it properly. Like I said before, you get what you pay for. Regards, Wil McGilvery Manager Lynch Digital Media Inc 416-744-7949 416-716-3964 (cell) 1-866-314-4678 416-744-0406? FAX www.LynchDigital.com -----Original Message----- From: Kevin Cozens [mailto:kcozens-qazKcTl6WRFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org] Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2003 4:36 PM To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Subject: RE: [TLUG]: Data recovery emergency on a downed server... Help please!! At 12:55 PM 12/31/2003 -0500, Wil McGilvery wrote: >Backups in my opinion will never be a set it and forget it procedure. >Periodic restores are necessary for peace of and the assurance that you >can restore when necessary. Tape and CD/DVD changers help but if the data is critical, someone still has to physically move the backups off-site and put fresh tapes or CD/DVDs in to the changer. >I have not heard of anyone successfully using cd's for backup purposes, >but I do know of people using removable hard drives as an alternate to >tape backups. No one has successfully used CD's or DVD's? What sort of stories have you heard? Perhaps they were using el cheapo CD's? If one is serious about having good backups, you don't go for the cheapest backup media you can get. Cheers! Kevin. (http://www.interlog.com/~kcozens/) Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172 |"What are we going to do today, Borg?" E-mail:kcozens at interlog dot com|"Same thing we always do, Pinkutus: Packet:ve3syb-XXPEJ3/fxIc at public.gmane.org#con.on.ca.na| Try to assimilate the world!" #include | -Pinkutus & the Borg -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 31 22:12:08 2003 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 17:12:08 -0500 Subject: Data recovery emergency on a downed server... Help please!! In-Reply-To: <65B7B304AA3DE147BBD33938FE204E283191DA-49iW0tF5bQXl9+zcyUE9hx1TMoFmMu2o@public.gmane.org> References: <65B7B304AA3DE147BBD33938FE204E283191DA@lynchmail.lynch.msft> Message-ID: <3FF349B8.10202@rogers.com> I have 2 identical 60G hard drives. I simply clone the entire drive onto the other, which is mounted in a removable tray. Also, the best backup system is redunancy. Make lots of copies, with off site storage, to minimize the potential loss. Live mirrors also help protect against physical damage. Wil McGilvery wrote: > I do not like using CD's because the storage is too small. Even DVD's are not quite big enough to completely back up a system. They are also cheap and you can still experience unreliability. Even the "good" cd's are still too unreliable for me. > > When I first got started I used dat tapes and sold some to customers. That was a big mistake. I was replacing the tape drive every year and once I had a new tape drive it was a crap shoot as to whether I could perform a restore or not from an old tape. > > If you are backing up your own data on your own system at your house then do what ever works because obviously price is a consideration, but if you are responsible for mission critical data, don't go cheap. It is just not worth it. Spend the money and do it properly. > > Like I said before, you get what you pay for. > > Regards, > > Wil McGilvery > Manager > Lynch Digital Media Inc > > > > 416-744-7949 > 416-716-3964 (cell) > 1-866-314-4678 > 416-744-0406 FAX > www.LynchDigital.com > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Kevin Cozens [mailto:kcozens-qazKcTl6WRFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org] > Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2003 4:36 PM > To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > Subject: RE: [TLUG]: Data recovery emergency on a downed server... Help please!! > > At 12:55 PM 12/31/2003 -0500, Wil McGilvery wrote: > >>Backups in my opinion will never be a set it and forget it procedure. >>Periodic restores are necessary for peace of and the assurance that you >>can restore when necessary. > > > Tape and CD/DVD changers help but if the data is critical, someone still > has to physically move the backups off-site and put fresh tapes or CD/DVDs > in to the changer. > > >>I have not heard of anyone successfully using cd's for backup purposes, >>but I do know of people using removable hard drives as an alternate to >>tape backups. > > > No one has successfully used CD's or DVD's? What sort of stories have you > heard? Perhaps they were using el cheapo CD's? If one is serious about > having good backups, you don't go for the cheapest backup media you can get. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 31 22:58:52 2003 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 17:58:52 -0500 Subject: Data recovery emergency on a downed server... Help please!! In-Reply-To: <3FF349B8.10202-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <65B7B304AA3DE147BBD33938FE204E283191DA@lynchmail.lynch.msft> <3FF349B8.10202@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20031231225852.GA3194@node1.opengeometry.net> On Wed, Dec 31, 2003 at 05:12:08PM -0500, James Knott wrote: > I have 2 identical 60G hard drives. I simply clone the entire drive > onto the other, which is mounted in a removable tray. > > Also, the best backup system is redunancy. Make lots of copies, with > off site storage, to minimize the potential loss. Live mirrors also > help protect against physical damage. 1. My advice to those experiencing flaky harddisk... Spend the money on - good power supply and case - good harddisk - good motherboard Of the above, power supply is most often overlooked. It's the most important thing, in my opinion; and, I don't mean wattage rating on those. 2. Since I'm running Slackware, I don't do complete system backup. I only backup users data (ie. things that were added or modified since install). When doing total restore, I just run a script to do the complete installation of Linux from distribution CD; then, restore the users data. For other distro, it may be different, because this depends on whether you can do unattended complete install. -- William Park, Open Geometry Consulting, Linux solution for data management and processing. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From jason-gaRZxGPHtpBxZtjKW1aY+1aTQe2KTcn/ at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 31 23:13:46 2003 From: jason-gaRZxGPHtpBxZtjKW1aY+1aTQe2KTcn/ at public.gmane.org (Jason Shein) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 18:13:46 -0500 Subject: Data recovery emergency on a downed server... Help please!! In-Reply-To: <20031231225852.GA3194-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <65B7B304AA3DE147BBD33938FE204E283191DA@lynchmail.lynch.msft> <3FF349B8.10202@rogers.com> <20031231225852.GA3194@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <3FF3582A.2080903@pcsecurityonline.com> It will be interesting when the next-gen dvd format becomes more affordable. The blu-ray format will store 27gb on a songle dvd. http://www.cdrinfo.com/Sections/News/Details.asp?RelatedID=4429 http://www.blu-ray.com/ http://news.com.com/2100-1041_3-990826.html Any prices I have found are in the 3500 USD range. Hmm... come to think of it, were'nt DVD writers about 600 buck last christmas? About 100 bucks now. Let's hope that the blu-ray devices drop just as fast. William Park wrote: > On Wed, Dec 31, 2003 at 05:12:08PM -0500, James Knott wrote: > >>I have 2 identical 60G hard drives. I simply clone the entire drive >>onto the other, which is mounted in a removable tray. >> >>Also, the best backup system is redunancy. Make lots of copies, with >>off site storage, to minimize the potential loss. Live mirrors also >>help protect against physical damage. > > > 1. My advice to those experiencing flaky harddisk... Spend the money on > - good power supply and case > - good harddisk > - good motherboard > Of the above, power supply is most often overlooked. It's the most > important thing, in my opinion; and, I don't mean wattage rating on > those. > > 2. Since I'm running Slackware, I don't do complete system backup. I > only backup users data (ie. things that were added or modified since > install). When doing total restore, I just run a script to do the > complete installation of Linux from distribution CD; then, restore the > users data. For other distro, it may be different, because this depends > on whether you can do unattended complete install. > -- " Eventually people tire of repairing broken Windows, And decide to replace them with something stronger" (o_ //\ Linux - The Choice Of A GNU Generation V_/_ Jason Shein Linux Registered User #281100 jason-gaRZxGPHtpBxZtjKW1aY+1aTQe2KTcn/@public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From kru_tch-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 31 23:15:22 2003 From: kru_tch-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (Steve A.) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 18:15:22 -0500 Subject: Data recovery emergency on a downed server... Help please!! In-Reply-To: <65B7B304AA3DE147BBD33938FE204E283191DA-49iW0tF5bQXl9+zcyUE9hx1TMoFmMu2o@public.gmane.org> References: <65B7B304AA3DE147BBD33938FE204E283191DA@lynchmail.lynch.msft> Message-ID: <20031231231522.GA24121@barnyard.sweetpig.dyndns.org> On Wed, Dec 31, 2003 at 04:59:16PM -0500 or thereabouts, Wil McGilvery wrote: > I do not like using CD's because the storage is too small. Even DVD's are not quite big enough to completely back up a system. They are also cheap and you can still experience unreliability. Even the "good" cd's are still too unreliable for me. > > When I first got started I used dat tapes and sold some to customers. That was a big mistake. I was replacing the tape drive every year and once I had a new tape drive it was a crap shoot as to whether I could perform a restore or not from an old tape. > > If you are backing up your own data on your own system at your house then do what ever works because obviously price is a consideration, but if you are responsible for mission critical data, don't go cheap. It is just not worth it. Spend the money and do it properly. > > Like I said before, you get what you pay for. I'm surprised to hear you say that DVD's aren't quite big enough... I'm in the digital asset business, and we gave tape up a long time ago. We use DVD with a jukebox, and the whole thing is automated in terms of doing the actual backup, we have no issue carrying over files that fill up one disk to another, the software is intelligent enough to know where all the parts are. Our backups each day aren't tiny... -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From aitken-BwLjziHGQLusTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 3 08:05:33 2003 From: aitken-BwLjziHGQLusTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Chris Aitken) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 03:05:33 -0500 Subject: quiet PC References: <1071582732.22152.9.camel@hons800> Message-ID: <3FCD994C.C08752A@onlink.net> Chris Aitken wrote: > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Subject: Re: [TLUG]: quiet PC > Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 20:39:00 -0500 > From: Peter Hiscocks > Reply-To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > References: <3FD51233.6E2F5C25-BwLjziHGQLusTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org> > > I sympathise, many PC's these days are unbearably noisy. I got one that was > unacceptably noisy and simply took it back to OTA the next day and asked for > a quieter fan. They obliged. That's the easiest and simplest solution. Thanks, everybody. I was blown away by the volume of feedback I got from this post. I thought I should let you know how I resolved this - such as it is. Honson would not commit to installing an ultra-quiet fan. The clerk told me that "all fans make some noise". I told her that I'm sure that that is true but that I understand that some fans are so quiet that you can't hear them ; ) She said she would have a tech call me - a tech never did call me. So, I took the PC to Stan at Union Computers (Yonge, South of Eg). He was a little more bullish on quiet fans. So, as is my nature, I let him "pour honey down my ear" (is that really an expression, or did I make that up?). So, for 80 bucks cash, I now have a PC that is definitely quiter (but not near-noiseless), and the noise it does make is at least uniform (not the organ grinder effect I had before). So, it's quieter (better fans) and its sound is uniform now, not pulsing and changing (that's because the fans are new). The PCU fan/heatsink packaging was not saved, so the best information Stan could give me was that it is rated for a 1.5 GHz processor (whereas I only have an 800 MHz one). The PSU fan specs are: Dimension: 80X80X25 Air Flow: 32.5CFM Speed: 2500 RPM Noise: 28.3 bBA Voltage: 12 VDC Current: 0.13 A Power: 1.6 W Thanks again, Chris Aitken -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml From aitken-BwLjziHGQLusTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 3 08:31:54 2003 From: aitken-BwLjziHGQLusTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (Chris Aitken) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 03:31:54 -0500 Subject: sound & partitions Message-ID: <3FCD9F79.22776A0D@onlink.net> I am starting my own business with the blessing of hrdc. If anyone is curious for more details you can certainly email me offline. This post will be long enough as it is : ) Two questions and one request: 1. I am reinstalling linux because I whimped out on my last install when I had trouble creating /home as a separate partition (I had the error: could not allocate partition". I settled for only / (9492 MB) and swap (510). Now I have a sick system. I could troubleshoot it, but I would still have an installation with no separate /home partition, which I don't think is a good idea. for a business.There is nothing critical in /home now, so I don't think I will bother troubleshooting just to copy it's contents over the network - no point. But what I do want to do is have /home on a separate partition on my reinstall. I don't want to disturb the existing MS partitions (for better or for worse, for now, I am using Pro Tools Free for the music recording part of my business). I have a C:\ and D:\ partition on the drive. That's only two primary partitions - so, I don't see why I can't create separate partitions for /, /home and swap - albeit they won't all be primary. Does Disk Druid have trouble with such things? Should I take the adult's approach and use fdisk? 2. Keeping in mind that want to get up and running again soon, is the following still my easiest best option?: install rh 7.3 (good multimedia OS, with sound already compiled into the kernel) and upgrade to 8.0 (to get Open Office and other goodies). 3. I could continue to use Pro Tools Free on W98SE for the music recording part of my business, but I would prefer to do everything in linux. This is important to the second phase of this business. I'll keep working through _The BOOK of LINUX MUSIC & SOUND_ by Dave Phillips (no starch press), but that means it'll be a year (I'm not being dramatic) before I'm recording sound in linux. If anyone has done this, I'd love to hear from you. Sincerely, Chris Aitken -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml