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<p><font size="4" face="Adobe Courier">All points about
brands/branding noted and appreciated. I got the Lenovo Legion
T5 because I wanted a desktop, and it seemed to me that the
niche for high-quality and well-built desktops -- what used to
be called "enterprise" or "business" models -- had largely
collapsed, being supplanted by either high-end laptops that
business users would tote around and if necessary plug into a
docking station, or by cheap consumer-grade desktops that were
shoddily built, underpowered, and meant to be thrown away in a
few years (more economical than investing in long-lasting
hardware that would be outmoded too quickly). So what is
someone who wants a good desktop unit to do?</font></p>
<p><font size="4" face="Adobe Courier">A few years ago one of my
desktop units failed. I replaced it with a miniPC, a minisform
model I put more RAM and two 2TB SSDs into, and it runs just
fine. Maybe that is the way to go. (I have a portable
high-resolution LCD screen now, and I think I'll eventually just
carry around miniPCs rather than laptops.) But then again I
also have a 14-year-old ThinkPad that still runs like a dream
once I put in an SSD; one of the last models with the "real" IBM
keyboard in it.<br>
</font></p>
<p><font size="4" face="Adobe Courier">Perhaps mistakenly, I thought
that the combination of new hardware with the rough requirements
gamers have for their machines -- able to be run hard for long
periods of time, for instance -- would give me durability and
was the Next Best Thing to the trouble of actually assembling a
desktop machine myself. (I actually like to build computers,
but I just don't have the time these days, unfortunately.)
Seems I was wrong, or at least wrong that this model from Lenovo
would be like that.</font></p>
<p><font size="4" face="Adobe Courier">I didn't even consider
ThinkCentres, which word-of-mouth had rated as overpriced and
underpowered, and in any event I wanted (and still want) an
extremely reliable machine that I can re-use my 3.5" spinning
disks in along with other desktop-sized hardware. My three
desktops are located in different offices, and they make a
mini-cloud of backups etc.<br>
</font></p>
<p><font size="4" face="Adobe Courier">Most of my academic
colleagues took an entirely different route -- by and large they
use a high-end laptop as their main computer, and either go for
a docking-station setup or just use a cheap "business" desktop
for email/web work, a reversal of the old approach where the
laptop was for light duty and the desktop for serious work.</font></p>
<p><font size="4" face="Adobe Courier">I am not a market of one
(yet). But there are times when it is starting to feel that
way. And not working in tech, I don't hear what's current,
whose machines are reliable, and the sort of unwritten lore that
would help inform sensible purchasing choices.</font></p>
<p><font size="4" face="Adobe Courier">I suspect this list of
desiderata would apply to many in this group:</font></p>
<p><font size="4" face="Adobe Courier"> - reliable and long-lived</font></p>
<p><font size="4" face="Adobe Courier"> - user-upgradeable and
user-fixable</font></p>
<p><font size="4" face="Adobe Courier"> - high storage capacity</font></p>
<p><font size="4" face="Adobe Courier"> - fast, or fast enough for
work purposes</font></p>
<p><font size="4" face="Adobe Courier"> - able to manipulate
high-end graphics (and sometimes high-end audio) files</font></p>
<p><font size="4" face="Adobe Courier">Things I don't need are: high
framerate, portability, small form-factor, Windows, the latest
wireless speed standard, anything more than ordinary ethernet,
optical disks. I can plug in USB peripherals for keyboard,
mouse, portable devices, or even optical disks. I can even use
offboard DAC high-end audio over USB, which works quite well. I
have thought about building a NAS system, to reduce my need for
local high-capacity storage, but every time I look into it, the
plethora of software choices and the difficulty of configuring a
server to do what is normally done locally makes me just, well,
give up.<br>
</font></p>
<p><font size="4" face="Adobe Courier">Essentially, for a desktop
unit I want a server-type machine that is also capable of
working with large graphics images, mostly static. I don't
think there is anything like that for general sale, and so it
isn't just branding -- it's having enough people to sustain a
market for such a product.</font></p>
<p><font size="4" face="Adobe Courier">For that matter, I far prefer
manual transmission in cars, but that's a preference that is
hard to sustain these days. Fortunately that's just a
preference and not a matter of work.</font></p>
<p><font size="4" face="Adobe Courier">Thanks to everyone for all
the reflections; there is more to the problem than I was
properly aware of. Today I will open up the Legion and see how
easy/difficult it is to replace the CMOS battery and to bypass
the high-end graphics card. The saga continues.<br>
</font></p>
<p><font size="4" face="Adobe Courier"> <br>
</font></p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 9/16/23 11:55, D. Hugh Redelmeier
via talk wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:75f2382c-3ccf-4f13-6f58-a4d7cd6c3efc@mimosa.com">
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">| From: Evan Leibovitch via talk <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:talk@gtalug.org"><talk@gtalug.org></a>
| Disclaimer: I have an MBA in marketing. I studied this stuff at length.
(I think that's actually a claimer.)
Thanks for adding a lot to this topic.
For those interested in marketing, there is a great CBC Radio series,
Terry O'Reilly's "Under the influence". On in an hour (11:30 Saturdays).
You can also get it as a podcast:
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="https://can01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.cbc.ca%2Fradio%2Fundertheinfluence&data=05%7C01%7Cpeter.king%40utoronto.ca%7Cccbd434a8b5d4b2f363d08dbb6cd5c59%7C78aac2262f034b4d9037b46d56c55210%7C0%7C0%7C638304765354476275%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=errATnN%2BKBi80CSeWJDQJgP2XedOJCAbKymLcgzg8zY%3D&reserved=0"><https://can01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.cbc.ca%2Fradio%2Fundertheinfluence&data=05%7C01%7Cpeter.king%40utoronto.ca%7Cccbd434a8b5d4b2f363d08dbb6cd5c59%7C78aac2262f034b4d9037b46d56c55210%7C0%7C0%7C638304765354476275%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=errATnN%2BKBi80CSeWJDQJgP2XedOJCAbKymLcgzg8zY%3D&reserved=0></a>
| More to the point: SOME brands matter. And they matter to varying degrees.
Absolutely.
Most techies start with the conscious attitude that brands don't
matter. (We don't always realize that our less conscious reasoning
cannot ignore branding. And we should not.)
| > They are meant to telegraph certain things to the customer. Of course the
| > brand's meaning can be changed: it isn't a contract.
|
| Sometimes that change is unintentional.
For sure.
But consider product defects (not usually planned). How the company
reacts to a problem very much reflects on the brand.
| Lenovo's Think* brands are mostly solid conservative business machines.
ThinkPad, ThinkCentre, ThinkServer -- each of those have a consistent
message, with nuances you mentioned.
ThinkBook breaks that pattern.
| That's the brand IBM built, and that Lenovo maintained for some models. For
| others, they "diluted the brand", something that happens far too often. But
| hey, their marketing worked on you.
People I've heard from are happy with their L and E series.
I haven't bought a ThinkPad for a decade. I have bought ThinkCentres
as recently as this year.
Why? I find that I can get more bang for my buck with other brands,</pre>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:75f2382c-3ccf-4f13-6f58-a4d7cd6c3efc@mimosa.com">
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">
and with the features I want.
| + part of that is users don't like change.
|
|
| That's not universal, especially in the field of tech where things can
| change so fast (like whether a laptop needs a built-in CD/DVD player).
| Sometimes the users demand change, and conservative approaches don't
| survive.
The most vocal customers are the ones that don't like the changes
"forced on them". I would guess that those are the most loyal
customers. I also bet they don't buy a lot of units.
For years you could hear complaints about the (lack of?) trackpad
buttons in newer T series models.
I have a friend who really really wanted an optical drive in a laptop.
This year. It is possible, but only in pretty limited number of
models, all horrible.
| > - the ThinkPad Android Tablet was a disaster that I got fooled by.
|
| There have been in the past x86-based Thinkpad tablets that have been well
| regarded. The current Yoga line works nicely for some.
x86 tablets are a quite different thing. So much so that they don't
get called tablets. Slates? Surfaces? Convertibles.
- they are much clunkier in so many ways. Worse
+ weight
+ battery time
+ display
+ touch control
+ fluidity of interface
- they run all the Windows software.
- accidentally can usually run any Linux distro
| Lenovo Android devices are mostly produced for the Chinese domestic
| audience and only unoficially get sold internationally.
Now. But that doesn't describe the ThinkPad Android Tablet.
It appears that they abandoned it early, without announcing that.
Not as quickly as HP killed its TouchPad tablet, but not as explicitly
either.
I have some Lenovo tablets, not aimed at the Chinese domestic market.
They are limited but reasonably priced. And they don't have a
ThinkPad brand.
| By and large Lenovo
| uses its Motorola brand for internationally-sold Android devices.
Phones. I don't remember that being the case for tablets.
| Over the years a LOT of Thinkpad models have not been aimed at you or me.
|
| I'm not sure I'm getting the point here.
The jumping off point is that Think* is aimed at conservative
customers but Lenovo in general and Legend in particular isn't.
Peter is struggling with a Legend desktop and appears to want and need
something closer to what a ThinkCentre is aimed at providing: solid,
well-supported, long-lived.
| Don't get caught up in branding. These days PCs are nearly a commodity and
| there's very little to separate the makers except for after-sale issues
| such as warranty and ease of repair. The only distinctive brand here is
| Apple and you either buy into their world or you don't.
To a point.
Lenovo has built a bit of a moat around the Think* brands and gets to
charge a premium. Some of this premium is spent on things that their
audience wants. Most interesting for GTALUG: they will make sure
Linux works (at least in theory).
Apple has a much bigger moat. They use their premium for a lot of
engineering that PC makers cannot afford. I'm not sure that Apple make
much profit on PCs -- they have a lot of engineering costs.
Most PC makers leave a lot of the innovation to Intel and Microsoft
(AMD not so much). For example "ultrabook" is a trademark of Intel.
Intel made reference designs to show how it could be done. They made
specifications that had to be met to allow that branding.
Here's another example of bad branding. Asus has a line of notebooks
called "Vivobook". This is supposed to be below their ZenBook line.
I have two models of these that are drastically different in quality /
price / features.
- the Vivobook X415 is a very ordinary laptop. 1920x1080 IPS display (the
minimum for me). Processor: i3-1005g1. Not horrible, ordinary.
- the Vivobook S 14X is amazing. For example, the display is
2880x1600 OLED display with 120Hz refresh. Processor: Ryzen 7 6800H.
They really should segment the Vivobook brand. Perhaps they think
that they have with the "S".
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</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
Peter King <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:peter.king@utoronto.ca">peter.king@utoronto.ca</a>
Department of Philosophy
170 St. George Street #521
The University of Toronto (416)-946-3170 ofc
Toronto, ON M5R 2M8
CANADA
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://individual.utoronto.ca/pking/">http://individual.utoronto.ca/pking/</a>
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</pre>
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