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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 04/17/2014 12:20 PM, Christopher
Browne wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAFNqd5WKe8Jdo1bnL9ndYs=0ebO+Sga_vqiN8U-SgA58Z5gQZA-Rq2MYuBUFGs@public.gmane.orgail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">On Thu, Apr 17, 2014 at 11:56 AM, CLIFFORD ILKAY <span
dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org" target="_blank">clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<div class="gmail_extra">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div class="">On 04/17/2014 10:01 AM, David Collier-Brown
wrote:<br>
> ... The next step is to figure out what to do about
it.<br>
<br>
</div>
How about ditching Yahoo? Both Yahoo and Hotmail/MSN/Live
and any ISP<br>
that uses them in the background are huge pains for
e-commerce systems<br>
that rely on sending confirmation links to users. More
often than not,<br>
those emails will either get misclassified as junk or
never get<br>
delivered at all. Recently, I was speaking with someone
who hadn't<br>
received an email I'd sent to his Sympatico (Microsoft
backed). He asked<br>
me to send it again and he didn't receive it. He said he
has a Gmail<br>
address so I sent the same email to both his Sympatico and
his Gmail<br>
account. He got it immediately at his Gmail account. It
never reached<br>
his Sympatico account. It's nowhere to be found and it's
not in his junk<br>
or inbox folders. He realized then that he's probably been
missing<br>
important emails from people for years and he switched to
Gmail. I'm not<br>
advocating for Gmail, though it's a perfectly capable mail
system. I'm<br>
just saying that in the universe of possibilities, Yahoo
and Microsoft's<br>
various free email offerings are the worst possible
choices.</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Agreed.<br>
<br>
</div>
<div>One way to regard this is to consider the change to be
"censorship", and, to some degree, a matter of "human
rights" warranting protest. I don't think that is
well-representative of what's up at Yahoo!, since
censorship is usually expected to involve the suppression
of speech by a governmental organization. Yahoo! is a
company operating in a foreign country, not a governing
organization.<br>
<br>
</div>
<div>Another view (less than "censorship") might be to
consider this to be a form of "editorial selection",
though I think that overstates the amount of
intentionality involved.<br>
<br>
</div>
<div>I'll quote from Jan Wieck on this from another list
which has been discussing this from a more purely
practical perspective.<br>
<br>
"<span
style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);display:inline!important;float:none">One
aspect of the whole thing is that the DMARC proposal is
two years</span><br
style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<span
style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);display:inline!important;float:none">old
and it was well known that this (breaking mailing lists)
would be a</span><br
style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<span
style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);display:inline!important;float:none">side
effect of it. The powers that be at Yahoo! went ahead
with it</span><br
style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<span
style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);display:inline!important;float:none">anyways.
This can mean only one thing. That Yahoo! does not want
users</span><br
style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<span
style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);display:inline!important;float:none">with
a @</span><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://yahoo.com/" target="_blank"
style="color:rgb(17,85,204);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">yahoo.com</a><span
style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);display:inline!important;float:none"><span
class=""> </span>address to participate in third party
mailing lists.</span><br
style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<span
style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);display:inline!important;float:none">If
that is what they want, then that is what they should
get."<br>
<br>
</span></div>
</div>
A consequence of this is that Yahoo! will lose some paying
users. (Jan was, until quite recently, one such.)<br>
<br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra">For those that have been paying users,
this is providing a compelling reason to shift to some more
satisfactory service provider. For those that haven't been
paying, well, your service exists at the sufferance of a
company whose finances I can't properly comprehend. Doesn't
seem like something worth depending on to me. (In contrast, I
understand how Google can get value from its free service
offerings.)<br>
<br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra">FYI, there is a relevant GTALUG
practicality; we probably need to block subscribers "@<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://yahoo.com">yahoo.com</a>"
from posting to this list, as the DMARC configuration will
mean that mail from those subscribers is liable to cause us
problems by virtue of bouncing around with the risk of
encouraging mail routers to block US, which is distinctly
undesirable.<br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra">-- <br>
When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing
it to the<br>
question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?"<br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
Rogers subcontracts with Yahoo, which means a subset of my mail ends
up going there, and occasionally disappearing utterly. Oddly,
spamcop doesn't have an outgoing-mail service (I use their
incoming), or I'd personally have been far away for years.<br>
<br>
Just FYI, I got another failure at Thu Apr 17 12:06:15 EDT 2014 wit
the message<br>
<blockquote>An error occurred while sending mail. The mail server
responded: Transaction failed : Cannot send message due to
possible abuse; please visit
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://postmaster.yahoo.com/abuse_smtp.html">http://postmaster.yahoo.com/abuse_smtp.html</a> for more information.
Please check the message and try again.<br>
</blockquote>
There is no such address, of course, and since I use TLS, I can't
snoop and see what happened. strace next. I do know even a
reasonable mailer (Thunderbird) failed pretty silently, filing the
message in "sent" but not sending. Who knows what a bad mailer
would do?<br>
<br>
--dave<br>
[GCOS Internet mail would mail you the SMTP session log on any
failure. Why? Because I wrote it to follow Postel's instructions!]<br>
<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
David Collier-Brown, | Always do right. This will gratify
System Programmer and Author | some people and astonish the rest
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:davecb-0XdUWXLQalXR7s880joybQ@public.gmane.org">davecb-0XdUWXLQalXR7s880joybQ@public.gmane.org</a> | -- Mark Twain
</pre>
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