<div dir="ltr"><div><div>I don't felt that people on this list condoned William's misbehavior, quite the opposite. And as I haven't attended any meeting yet, I will as soon as I have time. All my relationship with TLUG is using this list, and I found it very polite on the majority of the time. There's the occasional trolling here and there, but that's something expected on Internet. <br>
</div><br>No matter if TLUG is a democracy or not, IMHO William should apologize, be banned, or both. As someone mentioned, freedom of speech is not freedom from responsibility nor freedom from consequence. If his view on women is in complete disagreement with almost everyone in this list, he is out of place and should go somewhere else. I think the channels on 4chan would be a better place to him.<br>
<br></div>Even with this issues, I don't recommend anybody leaving the list. The good people are not to leave. The bad people are. If we as individuals have the right to not befriend nor talk to people we don't like, why should we as a group be denied from the same right? Lets just dump the trolls!<br>
<div><br></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all"><div>Mauro<br><a href="http://mauro.limeiratem.com">http://mauro.limeiratem.com</a> - registered Linux User: 294521<br>Scripture is both history, and a love letter from God.</div>
<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">2014/1/16 Matt Seburn <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:mattseburn-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org" target="_blank">mattseburn@gmail.com</a>></span><br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr"><div><div><div><div>This thread is absurd to me. Count me as one of those put off enough by what I see here to consider TLUG utterly useless.<br><br>I
attended one meeting years ago, and felt so unwelcome that I haven't
been back since. Heckling was an issue, but I chose not to come back
because the group felt very unwelcoming. It felt like I had walked into
a clique of people who had known each other for years and had no
interest in letting newcomers into the group. I tried to follow along
to the post-meeting social time (hoping that I'd have better luck
socializing there), but everyone walked ahead of me and occasionally
looked back to glare at me until I gave up and left. I'm sure I'm not
the only one who has had an experience like this.<br><br></div>I stayed
on the list because of the useful and interesting discussion, but now
I'm reconsidering that decision. I see a group of people condoning
sexual harassment, and prioritizing the harasser's "right" to harass
above others' right to not be harassed. This is absurd to me. Free
speech does not mean you have the right to say whatever you want without
consequences. You can't yell "fire!" in a crowded theatre, and you
can't sexually harass people. Both actions can and often do have
serious consequences, and for good reason.<br><br></div>Moderation is an
important part of any internet community. I agree that the banhammer
should be used sparingly, but at a minimum the moderator's role is to
set the tone and ensure that the space remains useful for its intended
purpose, and in TLUG's case this extends to in-person meetups. Many
people in this thread have shared that they feel the group has become
problematic and is not useful to them. I think this is a real problem
that those in charge of TLUG need to pay attention to.<br><br></div>If
you want to get together with your friends and heckle each other and
make sexist jokes, you are free to do so whenever and wherever you
like. That is not the purpose of TLUG, and it's the responsibility of
those in charge to ensure it remains true to its purpose.<span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"><br><br></font></span></div><span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888">Matt<br><br></font></span></div><div class="HOEnZb">
<div class="h5"><div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Jan 16, 2014 at 6:19 AM, Colin McGregor <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org" target="_blank">colin.mc151@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div>On Wed, Jan 15, 2014 at 9:37 PM, Stewart C. Russell <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:scruss@gmail.com" target="_blank">scruss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org</a>></span> wrote:<br>
</div><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote"><div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div>On 14-01-15 07:53 PM, William Park wrote:<br>
><br>
</div><div>> Come on, guys. This bitching about TLUG meeting is strange to me and<br>
> counter productive as group.<br>
<br>
</div>Actually, no; it's very productive to constructively criticize something<br>
you want to see improve. In the link that Colin posted, it's written up<br>
under “Geek Social Fallacy #2: Friends Accept Me As I Am”:<br>
<a href="http://www.plausiblydeniable.com/opinion/gsf.html" target="_blank">http://www.plausiblydeniable.com/opinion/gsf.html</a><br>
— read it, it's good.<br></blockquote><div><br></div></div><div>Sorry, my bad, I first heard about the Geek Social Fallacy article via Stewart Russell on Monday, and I didn't credit him. Bottom line though, there are points in that article that should be driven home to a GTALug (and several other geek groups) audience (sad but true).<br>
<br></div><div>I often attend the GTALug board meetings, even though I am not a board member. It is my hope that at the next board meeting GTALug will adopt a formal code of conduct and then be prepared to enforce the code...<br>
</div><div><div>
<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
So, while I know the TLUG directors have tried their best, I have to say<br>
that the new room at Ryerson is definitely sub-standard. In the days of<br>
pretending to be associated with UofT, at least the rooms were big<br>
enough that the annoying back-channel chatter didn't prevent you from<br>
hearing everything.<br>
<div><br>
> People come to the meeting because they<br>
> want to learning something, and people don't come to the meeting because<br>
> they have nothing to learn.<br>
<br>
</div>While TLUG has a roster of genuine subject matter experts who are a joy<br>
to listen to, there are a number of folks at meetings who - maybe - just<br>
come to give their 2¢ on whatever topic is being presented. I understand<br>
that it's sometimes hard to contain one's natural exuberance about<br>
sharing knowledge, but it's better to be kind than correct, so we should<br>
strive to remember that a presenter is just giving their experience of<br>
their way of running their system. It may be vastly different from the<br>
way we'd do it, but if it works, good!<br>
<br>
Stewart<br>
<br>
(who may have occasionally used “cat file | …”, but is yet to run out of<br>
processes to do so)<br>
<div><div>--<br>
The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: <a href="http://gtalug.org/" target="_blank">http://gtalug.org/</a><br>
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns<br>
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: <a href="http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists" target="_blank">http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists</a><br>
</div></div></blockquote></div></div><br></div></div>
</blockquote></div><br></div>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>