<div dir="ltr"><br><div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, May 10, 2013 at 5:06 PM, Christopher Browne <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org" target="_blank">cbbrowne@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div class="im">On Fri, May 10, 2013 at 2:18 PM, Lennart Sorensen <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org" target="_blank">lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbsy9VOpLv7BQQ@public.gmane.orgrloo.ca</a>></span> wrote:<br>
</div><div class="gmail_extra">
<div class="gmail_quote"><div class="im"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div>On Thu, May 09, 2013 at 12:00:42PM -0400, Paul Tarvydas wrote:<br>
> Correct.<br>
><br>
> Although, it didn't "confuse" me. It just pissed me off.<br>
><br>
> It was like using Windows.<br>
<br>
</div>It's almost the exact opposit of windows. Windows installs all the<br>
features by default and enables them all. Debian installs almost nothing<br>
and does not enable things by default.<br>
</blockquote><div><br></div></div><div>It might technically be "opposite," but it does not amaze me that someone<br></div><div>might find some way in which it appears to be similar in behaviour.<br> <br></div><div class="im">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
> Every time I wanted to accomplish something, I needed to install an<br>
> "update". By the time it was finished, I couldn't remember what it<br>
> was I was trying to accomplish.<br>
><br>
> It continuously got in my way.<br>
><br>
> I've been developing real-time embedded software and compilers (not<br>
> linux development, not webserver development / deployment) for a<br>
> living for 30+ years. I need all of the tools to be in place. And<br>
> the "office" and web-client stuff just needs to be there and not<br>
> irritate me.<br>
<br>
</div>Unfortunately what you want is not what everyone wants in a system.<br>
</blockquote><div><br></div></div><div>Quite so.<br><br></div><div>One of the ways to regard Debian is as a "distribution construction kit,"<br></div><div>and the sour grapes about Ubuntu's popularity as an instance of a<br>
</div><div>distribution constructed using that kit is simultaneously understandable<br>as well as annoying, because Shuttleworth is effectively doing what he<br>was *supposed* to be able to do with Debian.<br><br></div><div>
The one place where I continue to find Ubuntu somewhat desirable is<br></div><div>in that it works harder on having something that makes all the major<br>sorts of functionality on laptops "sing and dance."<br><br>
</div><div>I recently acquired a new laptop, and am running Debian testing on it;<br></div><div>sadly, I have not yet been able to get WiFi working, despite spending<br>some efforts on that. On Debian, "some efforts" have borne near-zero<br>
results (and since I have a nice Cat5 cable beside my easy chair, I <br>haven't cared *that* much). <br><br>In contrast, I think I'd have had near zero difficulty getting wireless <br>going with near zero effort on Ubuntu. And it is rather irritating for there<br>
</div><div>to be such a painful difference.<br><br></div><div>An old, and still amusing, essay is the "Clueless Users Are Bad For<br>Debian" one. <<a href="http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/1999/03/msg02288.html" target="_blank">http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/1999/03/msg02288.html</a>><br>
</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div style>It must be pretty old, because it's utter mythology. Installing and using Debian is not even remotely difficult. If you can manage to get a computer to boot from a CD, I can't imagine anything that would hold back even the most retarded user. If you can read, and click 'next', it's no different than installing any other OS. In fact, it might even be easier, since once it boots up for the first time you don't have to be worried about it being immediately hosed by some random, trivial malware.</div>
<div style><br></div><div style>I avoided using Debian for years because of this mythology, only to find that it was far easier to use than any of the other distributions I had tried, simply because once I installed it I was done _forever_. It flawlessly updated itself every time and gave me access to whatever packages I needed without compiling or configuring or anything aggravating. </div>
<div style><br></div><div style>Other than the relatively common complaint about firmware for weird proprietary wireless devices in laptops, I can't recall anyone offering a specific experience where Debian had failed to get everything working as needed.</div>
<div style><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote"><div>
<br></div><div>The afterword of that essay suggests that the Right Thing is to have<br></div><div>Debian derivatives that strive to be friendly for the "Clueless Users."<br></div><div>Unfortunately, that will always engender a substantial amount of<br>
conflict, as:<br><br>a) A derivative may take on a life of its own and try to ignore the<br>progenitor (Ubuntu, I'm looking at you! :-))<br><br></div><div>b) There is sure to be some conflict as the downstream systems<br>
will generally prefer to have as little between them and the upstream,<br>and would correspondingly prefer to push whatever they do into<br></div><div>Debian whether or not that injures others involved. I'm not sure<br>
there are many cases of that.<br>
</div></div></div></div>
</blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div>Thomas Milne</div>
</div></div>